I am happy with my class.

[KaelVolorus]

I see posts a plenty about how paladin is lacking, how we falter on so many levels. "I know we're supposed to be the jacks of all trades but the master of none, but we need more." Why do so many people dislike how the class plays? We're possibly one of the most powerful and versatile classes around. Efficient healing where it counts. Strong damage in many situations as well as the ability to debuff and increase that damage. We can tank well. There is a lot of good gear with our name on it. With master one heals, buffs, and attacks, we can produce large ammounts of dps, hps, and all around boost our groups abilities. If that isn't enough, this last patch we recieved ranged weapons for a fantastic boost to our abilities. Quite honestly, with the strength of our base and class AA trees we near double our potency. From my perspective we're in a much more solid situation than others as of this patch. Honestly, the only change I would even make is a slight boost to our single target damage, which could be made through our damage proc buff. I wouldn't make it a combat skill boost simply because the ones we currently have are in a sound state and it wouldn't result in a strong enough boost to our single target without throwing the CAs off balance.Now its possible that i'm the only person happy with our position simply because this role is an enjoyable one for me. I feel much more useful as a paladin than I ever did as any devoted damage dealer class. I feel that I contribute more to my group than I ever did as any healer or straight up tank. I don't limit myself or my contribution to the group or raid, if we need help in any area I can pour on the aid. I would say more but I would rather hear from others... what is your opinion of the class? Do you find the same joy I do from playing a paladin or are there more hardships for you than enjoyment? What realistic and reasonable (read: not a complete redesign) changes would you make to the class if you are unhappy? I'm not asking for "Oh this would be awesome" i'm asking for improvements.... provide numbers if you think you can.<div></div>

[Nevar]

<DIV>Is there an actual reason you posted this? Cause I for one couldnt care less.</DIV>

[Majorminor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nevarer wrote:<BR> <DIV>Is there an actual reason you posted this? Cause I for one couldnt care less.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Irony? if you don't care, why post. </P> <P> </P> <P>Was a good read and I agree with the OP.  It's nice to read a good nice post sometimes, instead of the negative post's that turn into big fight's over this or that.</P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nevarer wrote:<div>Is there an actual reason you posted this? Cause I for one couldnt care less.</div><hr></blockquote>Itoock, can you post your feelings on the class post EoF?  Since I Haven't played my Pally much, there are a few people who I trust for an unbiased report.....you being one of those people.  If you don't want to post it openly, just send me a PM man.</div>

[Nevar]

<DIV>It seems alot more healer/support oriented in high end. Kos I could tank anything easily. Eof I pretty much can cause my resists are nuts but I cant take a physical hit like I used to. The shield blocking AA is nice, since The block roll is uncontested ( meaning its a raw 24% chance to block any hit ) . Otherwise id say we are a hell of a support class and can heal [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well and hold power well depending on the situation. I bring alot to the table now with no stat caps. The + to crushing and such AA gives us a bit more raid utility. Overall our AAs arent bad. They may not be what we wanted but what they gave us can be really helpful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IMO we are now clerics with taunts. More then ever. Only thing I have on our guard is my resists are alot higher then his in normal gear. It helps on aes alot but when it comes and punches me in the face it doesnt. Mitigation sucks so for those reading this id strip your mit down to about 61% and add in resists and avoid. Best way to go imo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fun factor in raids isnt there. Sure I help alot. With the right gear dps isnt hard to achieve. Healing is boring. Supporting aother tak is boring. Smashing every button when its up to try and do dps is boring. ( The Whacka mole technique, Copyrighted by Kobal, IF a button is up whack it!) Not much has changed here Phov. Just we lost another seat in the tankin line. Sk is much more viable an option then we are. And bruisers are very close to taking over out spot in the line. I am dissapointed but I havent killed everything yet. No clue what drops ill get and weapons.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

Thanks man, I knew I could count on you for an honest opinion.  Seems like I am going to keep grinding Aa's on my Brigand, and see if I can get semi-geared up with him, before I decide whether or not I am going to raid with Phov or him....as soon as I can.<div></div>

[Rast]

<P>While I am happy to play my class (I should be a 60 Paladin this week YAY!!!!) that doesn't mean I do not see areas that should be addressed.  I rolled a paladin to be a tank with better solo ability (since I find myself at odd hours sometimes and I hate pick up groups).  Guardians are just too...  plain for me.  I just couldn't get into playing one (I tried when I came back in November of last year and just couldn't find any fun in them).</P> <P>But it seems like every change in mechanics and every patch that deals with class balance push us further and further from what I rolled Jalathan (and my original Pally Shaydroth) for and that is to be a tank.  I'm coming up on the point of the game where more and more things are going to revolve around raiding to 'advance' a character and I simply do not see enough of a reason for a Pally to be brought along for a raid.  I do not put out great DPS, I'm not considered a MT, I should be able to out heal a healer (though I've heard reports to the contrary), I provide no major utility that someone else (who is better suited to a MT group) can provide and I've no interest in being a baby sitter for a bunch of cloth wearing finger wigglers.</P> <P>I think with some minor tweaks here and there we can be put into a competitive position in a raid as a MT or a Tank Assist role.  I don't want to be a guardian lite (see reasons above) and I don't want to tank like a guardian, I want to tank like a Paladin where I can use my wide range of abilities proactively to provide the same basic effect.  Right now, we can't (some have done so, but I would bet they are among the 10 best paladins/players in the game IMNSHO).</P> <P>Solo/Duo/Group we are amazing toons (and I love playing in that situation with my guild and often can since I'm the senior plate wearing fighter in the guild <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) but that time is running out and soon I'll have to find a reason to be included in raids and right now, I simply do not see the justification (or the playstyle fitting with me) for that to happen.</P>

[Lord_Quaymar]

I'm happy with my Pally too. The issue I see with some people that don't like the class are those that try to play their Pally like a Warrior/Guardian and insist on comparing the 2 classes. We are very different but can, with equal gear and skills, tank anything a Guardian can...we just go about it differently.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>SOE simply has no clue. Its sad that they took a tank, stripped it, and made it a glorified healer.  </P> <P>I gave up on my Paly long ago...At the time I thought I was a bit premature, but it seems I was not. I have no intentions of playing a Templar wannabe with taunts, that doesnt heal as well. Maybe thats not how some of you look at it, but thats my personal feeling.</P> <P>How many LU's has SOE had to actually get SOMETHING right  on this class? Everytime they give the class some decent skill, they bork up something else.</P> <P>There's no point in bringing a Paladin on a raid. Other classes heal much better, and other class have better miti buffs, better DPS, etc. Off tank? just bring another warrior. </P> <P>I played my Paly from day one, and I simply can't adjust to the new changes. Its has strayed way too much from I expected from the Paladin class.</P> <P> </P>

[redi]

Ok, nearly 3 weeks of EOF so far and this is what I have experienced:Tanking: I can tank KOS-stuff a lot better than before EOF, maybe due the adornments and AA-lines, but all in all it is an improvement. Though we managed to take out shredder few days ago, i must say that i am able to equally tank to our MT, a guardian, who has a lot more mitigation than me. But our advantage is the higher block/avoidance we have (solo standing at 53.7 atm) in a raid.....when we're hit, we get shafted a lot more, but healers have more time to get us into green, when we were hit, cause most of the time, mob doesn't. And imho nothing special with aggro changed, expect we have to push the tauntbutton a little more often. Healing while tanking is still difficult, cause we're getting interupted alot. Imho soe needs to make it a CA or uninterruptable.DPS: Now, that we have a bow, it is a really useful tool for DPS, nuking and while on break shooting arrows is ub0r, Raincaller in offense stance can crit for 3k+.  Most of the pallys will continue to use symbols over bows, but for pulling/ranged dps it is superior imho. And in grp-fights we're still the top of the foodchain, especially with enhancement in all of our aes.Support/heal: Our heals and wards with shortened recast make us like furies, xcept we are meant to tank. Not my playstyle so I can't say anything really useful.Think paladin depends on playstyle: If you are built to tank, then you can take out everything a guardian had(as far as I've experienced), if you are built to heal, you can parse in top 5 of raid with the right achievement. though you will lose some positions in DPS, you still are able to do parses with 1k+.....so imho Phov, give it a try, ask me if you want anything to know (Innovation.Eurethas) I personally like the changes, though most of the people can't deal with'em......<div></div>

[Caetrel]

OP just tired of hearing pallies [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....we all get tired of it at times....we also all [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] at times.   We have a muddy role, and in general have to play very hard for what seems very little. Having seen what little I have of EoF raids I think the gap between us and guards has lessened (here comes the flame....).  I have the same avoidance and better health, they have mit buffs that are basically useless now and some stoneskin type stuff that is very good.  Haven't seen much orange stuff, only a couple mobs in Inner Sanctum, and I stand up to them about as well as a guard. As for dps..blah go reroll if that matters...such a dead horse.  Max it the best you can and realize that your best role is tanking and healing, with whatever suck dps you can add in. <div></div>

[Nevar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caetrel wrote:<BR>OP just tired of hearing pallies [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....we all get tired of it at times....we also all [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] at times.   We have a muddy role, and in general have to play very hard for what seems very little.<BR><BR>Having seen what little I have of EoF raids I think the gap between us and guards has lessened (here comes the flame....).  I have the same avoidance and better health, they have mit buffs that are basically useless now and some stoneskin type stuff that is very good.  Haven't seen much orange stuff, only a couple mobs in Inner Sanctum, and I stand up to them about as well as a guard.<BR><BR>As for dps..blah go reroll if that matters...such a dead horse.  Max it the best you can and realize that your best role is tanking and healing, with whatever suck dps you can add in.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your guard sucks then.

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> redict wrote:<BR>Ok, nearly 3 weeks of EOF so far and this is what I have experienced:<BR><BR>Tanking: I can tank KOS-stuff a lot better than before EOF, maybe due the adornments and AA-lines, but all in all it is an improvement. Though we managed to take out shredder few days ago, i must say that i am able to equally tank to our MT, a guardian, who has a lot more mitigation than me. But our advantage is the higher block/avoidance we have (solo standing at 53.7 atm) in a raid.....when we're hit, we get shafted a lot more, but healers have more time to get us into green, when we were hit, cause most of the time, mob doesn't. And imho nothing special with aggro changed, expect we have to push the tauntbutton a little more often. Healing while tanking is still difficult, cause we're getting interupted alot. Imho soe needs to make it a CA or uninterruptable.<BR><BR><BR>DPS: Now, that we have a bow, it is a really useful tool for DPS, nuking and while on break shooting arrows is ub0r, Raincaller in offense stance can crit for 3k+.  Most of the pallys will continue to use symbols over bows, but for pulling/ranged dps it is superior imho. And in grp-fights we're still the top of the foodchain, especially with enhancement in all of our aes.<BR><BR>Support/heal: Our heals and wards with shortened recast make us like furies, xcept we are meant to tank. Not my playstyle so I can't say anything really useful.<BR><BR><BR>Think paladin depends on playstyle: If you are built to tank, then you can take out everything a guardian had(as far as I've experienced), if you are built to heal, you can parse in top 5 of raid with the right achievement. though you will lose some positions in DPS, you still are able to do parses with 1k+.....so imho Phov, give it a try, ask me if you want anything to know (Innovation.Eurethas) <BR><BR>I personally like the changes, though most of the people can't deal with'em......<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Your guard sucks then. Guardians have parry skills added to their defensive stance....paladins don't. This effect alone causes a guardian to have in general about 3% more avoidance then a paladin. ALSO a guardian needs to focus on only 3 stats...AGI, STA, and STR...a paladin needs to focus on all 5 stats which causes them to generally have lower agi stats then a guardian. Its difficult to get good AGI gear for a paladin. EVERYTHING made for a guardian has STA and AGI on it practically. And MIT STILL plays a roll in making you get lower damage amounts. With their self and group mit buffs...even on the high end of the curve...it still attributes for a 1 to 2% mit percentage increase.<BR>

[Caetrel]

<div></div>Took and Fat, you guys are full of it. Fat, you offered an in depth response, so here is my point...the differnce is smaller now.  Yah yah yah parry on Def stance, well we now have block.  It makes our number almost as big and block > parry.  Gap is less. Mitigation, thanks to the diminishing nonsense, means that you get to 63-66% and it dont really matter.  Again, gap is less.  Mit used to be absolute king, now it ain't. I am not saying we are better than guards, I'm saying the gap is less.  you get 63% mit, 63% avoidance, and a load of health, and you are gtg.  A month ago guard would own us totally in every respect, now we compete on avoid are still inferior on mit but it doesn't matter.  As for atts, I don't see the relevance.  I don't need INT to tank, at all.  I don't go out of my way for WIS even though it's high.  Non-issue IMO.  It sucks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that we basically have to have 2 sets of gear, one to tank and one if we wanna get decent dps- that sucks and is prolly the worst thing about our class- but it has nada to do with tanking. In the scheme of things we are better tanks post EoF than before.  edited to add: bah I noticed Fatuus was responding to someone else...apologies, I am bored today...so not editing initial post...someone argue with me plz <div></div><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:42 AM</span>

[Caetrel]

<div></div><img src="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/leaderboards/bobLeaderboardReport.action?report=highest_hitpoin ts"> bah no linky... Anyways, if you pay the fan boi dollar and can search leaderboards, I have like the 6th highest health on my server (and that's using a crappy 2 hander and wearing claymore shoulders, break 9k easily otherwise and am prolly first or second). Now, I am not tooting my horn, I have run of the mill KoS fabled that any 3 day a week raider has.  Just saying, we have good health with AAs.  And if my guard sucks, than so do the NPU guards who are like 5 ranks under him. What do guards have for health buffs?  Return to War is like 677 group health, and they have a self stamina buff.  That it?  We get almost 600 from our buff with AA, and the 4% KoS AA gives a varying amount but at least 500 raid buffed, prolly much more.  Unless I am forgetting a buff or ignorant of a warrior health AA (that is in a viable line that people actually use) than we have a slight bit more health. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:15 AM</span>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caetrel wrote:<BR> Took and Fat, you guys are full of it.<BR><BR>Fat, you offered an in depth response, so here is my point...the differnce is smaller now.  Yah yah yah parry on Def stance, well we now have block.  It makes our number almost as big and block > parry.  Gap is less.<BR><BR>Mitigation, thanks to the diminishing nonsense, means that you get to 63-66% and it dont really matter.  Again, gap is less.  Mit used to be absolute king, now it ain't.<BR><BR>I am not saying we are better than guards, I'm saying the gap is less.  you get 63% mit, 63% avoidance, and a load of health, and you are gtg.  A month ago guard would own us totally in every respect, now we compete on avoid are still inferior on mit but it doesn't matter.  <BR><BR>As for atts, I don't see the relevance.  I don't need INT to tank, at all.  I don't go out of my way for WIS even though it's high.  Non-issue IMO.  It sucks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that we basically have to have 2 sets of gear, one to tank and one if we wanna get decent dps- that sucks and is prolly the worst thing about our class- but it has nada to do with tanking.<BR><BR>In the scheme of things we are better tanks post EoF than before.  <BR><BR>edited to add: bah I noticed Fatuus was responding to someone else...apologies, I am bored today...so not editing initial post...someone argue with me plz<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Caetrel on <SPAN class=date_text>12-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:42 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Int is king for DPS. DPS helps you maintain aggro and kill the mob faster. Half of your DPS (and mind you ALL of your good DPS abilities) are driven by how much INT you have. You need to learn the pally class a little better.</P> <P>On average, about 15 INT increase will increase your base spell damage of ALL your AOES, Refusal of Conviction, and any of your mele proc chances (ie call of duty, and your self one...sorry forget the name atm). Damage done by about 1%. A good rule of thumb is that if you can get your INT to about 500, you will do abou 50% more damage then someone who has the int of about 20. Int also directly affects any procs your gear does damage wise.</P> <P>Wisdom is still important for resists, and it still helps increase your base power pool. About 30 wis still boosts your power the same as about 15 STR does (note VERY rough figure).</P> <P>.................................................. .........</P> <P>And in response to being "full of it" in regards to numbers and indepth response...for enjoyment on last day of test server I had a beta buffed guardian and beta buffed paladin....the difference between the 2 are 3% mitigation AND 3 % base avoidance....this was with the guardian wearing ALL relic based gear and the Paladin equiped the same....a fair comparison IMO.</P> <P>Note, this comparison was done with the BLOCK skill used on the paladin (Hero line filled in) AND the paladin had the draconic deflector at that time....the guardian had some cheezy 800 avoidance legendary tower shield that was total crap...and it still had 3% more avoidance. I also used the exact same race (wood elf) for both for a fair comparison.</P> <P>Lastly that mit difference was increased to 5% when the guardian temp mit buffs were used.</P> <P> </P> <P><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<</P> <P>I don't have much an issue with having lower amounts of tanking traits if I have skills I can effectively use WHILE TANKING that offset a lot of these balance issues. Our heals and wards are very hard to effectively use WHILE TANKING against difficult content. They either need to drastically increase our focus abilities specifically for paladins beyond the 20% chance (at max focus resistance) to ignore stuns and interupts when casting....or DRASTICALLY reduce the casting timers on our combat arts and heals...but increase thier recast amounts.</P> <P>Also they need to give a paladin something they are GREAT AT not mediocre as we currently are with everything atm. When LU 13 occured we were the BEST at aggro control...now other classes are just as good if not better.<BR></P>

[Caetrel]

<div></div>Fatuus,    Not jumping your case, but enjoying a good argument.  A few points.... First off, I don't need a lecture about INT.  I have been playing a pally since Nov 04 and raid leading almost as long.   So as you can imagine, I can pee very far.  I can keep aggro off a 15k+ dps raid with 80 intelligence easily, and have held aggro on 17-20k fights.  If raid is doing 15k dps and I keep aggro I could care less what my dps is.  Second, beta buff testing is great, but you have to account for raid buffs.  A guard prolly gets alot of bang solo when they throw up a mit buff, but when they are getting a healer's group buff they are further into the land of diminishing returns.  Third, guards get a group defense buff and they get parry in Def stance, okay.  The block might not get us to the same number, but it owns parry and defense.  Further, as you approach 455 defense the increase in base avoidance diminishes...not sure on the scale, but after playing with much crappy +defense gear it does diminish.  All I am saying is in KoS mit was king, and we sucked at mit.  Now in EoF mit is blah, avoidance matters for once and health matters more than ever.   And we got a boost in avoidance in the best way.  And our health with the right AAs is great. And just to further add to the flames, I can heal, ward, group heal, and juggle while MTing.  If you tank some slow [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] like Tarinax , Vyemm, some of the harder hitting mobs, you can pretty much cast all you want while your taunt timers are out. Lol pee gets past language filters but [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] doesn't.  My default retort from now on will be "I pee on you". <div></div><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class=date_text>12-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>I tend to agree with the fact we are alot better off after eof. Maybe devs could have done more but they helped us alot. I can tank alot easier now. Me and a gaurdian in my guild have had this argument alot. He still believes mit is king. He can get toabout 62% and then with his temp push it to 65-66% depending on group. I can get my mit to 60% have almost 1400 health than he has and ward myself going into a fight. That being said I dont know that 2-6% better mit beats 2500hps I got over him going into a fight. Healers have to work bit harder with me but its not impossible for them to keep me alive. I still cant beat his ToS with anything so he has got me there, but as far a mit>health ya it is, but the gaps not near as big as it was pre EoF. He still slightly better than me as tank, I know this, but in KoS he had maxed Mit and I was still only around 60% so the gap was huge then demishing returns has made us closer to equal. I still think Sony wants us to be the best MA or Offtank in the game they have given us all the tools to do that job better than anyone else. If MT goes down with sigil smack amends on my groups wiz and hit rescue then concecrate and all my aoes and I can gain and hold agro as good or better than any Ber or SK with thier aoe taunt. There is nothing wrong being second in the food chain I generally have to pay alot more attention to whats going on than the MT or someone who just along for ride but thats what I want. I like to think I save wipes from happening with my abilities. I got 2 sets of armor and adornments one for being back up tank and one for being utility healer/dps. Gaurdians got no roll if he/she is not MT and thats just all that they got I will keep my Pally.</DIV>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hawsecav19d wrote:<BR> <DIV>I tend to agree with the fact we are alot better off after eof. Maybe devs could have done more but they helped us alot. I can tank alot easier now. Me and a gaurdian in my guild have had this argument alot. He still believes mit is king. He can get toabout 62% and then with his temp push it to 65-66% depending on group. I can get my mit to 60% have almost 1400 health than he has and ward myself going into a fight. That being said I dont know that 2-6% better mit beats 2500hps I got over him going into a fight. Healers have to work bit harder with me but its not impossible for them to keep me alive. I still cant beat his ToS with anything so he has got me there, but as far a mit>health ya it is, but the gaps not near as big as it was pre EoF. He still slightly better than me as tank, I know this, but in KoS he had maxed Mit and I was still only around 60% so the gap was huge then demishing returns has made us closer to equal. I still think Sony wants us to be the best MA or Offtank in the game they have given us all the tools to do that job better than anyone else. If MT goes down with sigil smack amends on my groups wiz and hit rescue then concecrate and all my aoes and I can gain and hold agro as good or better than any Ber or SK with thier aoe taunt. There is nothing wrong being second in the food chain I generally have to pay alot more attention to whats going on than the MT or someone who just along for ride but thats what I want. I like to think I save wipes from happening with my abilities. I got 2 sets of armor and adornments one for being back up tank and one for being utility healer/dps. Gaurdians got no roll if he/she is not MT and thats just all that they got I will keep my Pally.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Pre EoF a well geared paladin could have as much mitigation versus any named as a guardian with armor caps in play.</P> <P>Fast forward.</P> <P>Raiding as a zerker or paladin in raids. I have in the same group environment 500 HP over our raiding zerker (since he has mainly relic and claydmore stuff). However, he has almost 6% avoidance and 7% mitigation over me when in the same type setup. When taking hits for 5k a pop...that difference makes a HUGE difference for keeping a tank up.</P> <P>Guardians can flat out pull any mob better then any other class can with a normal ability save for possible monks now in game. Tsunami now is an awesome tool for monks to pull with (combined with their 5k ward). Debuffing mobs is the name of the game...and there are few or no tools that allow the paladin to do this (besides god abilities). I pulled an epic in Freethinkers Hideout using a god ability. Prior to using marr's barrier, I got 3 shotted EVEN WITH full wards/regens/reactives cast on me prior to pulling within 1.5 seconds. When I pulled the mob on the next attempt USING Marr's barrier I stayed up for about 16 seconds and died instantly after the barrier went down.</P> <P>Note: I had 12k HP and had oberon barrier (Master I which is a constant 3600 ward cast on me) up on me when I insta died.</P> <P>Difference, our zerker was able to live on every pull at least 2 minutes with normal healage.</P>

[Kaleyen]

<blockquote><hr>hawsecav19d wrote:<div>I tend to agree with the fact we are alot better off after eof. Maybe devs could have done more but they helped us alot. I can tank alot easier now. Me and a gaurdian in my guild have had this argument alot. He still believes mit is king. He can get toabout 62% and then with his temp push it to 65-66% depending on group. I can get my mit to 60% have almost 1400 health than he has and ward myself going into a fight. That being said I dont know that 2-6% better mit beats 2500hps I got over him going into a fight. Healers have to work bit harder with me but its not impossible for them to keep me alive. I still cant beat his ToS with anything so he has got me there, but as far a mit>health ya it is, but the gaps not near as big as it was pre EoF. He still slightly better than me as tank, I know this, but in KoS he had maxed Mit and I was still only around 60% so the gap was huge then demishing returns has made us closer to equal. I still think Sony wants us to be the best MA or Offtank in the game they have given us all the tools to do that job better than anyone else. If MT goes down with sigil smack amends on my groups wiz and hit rescue then concecrate and all my aoes and I can gain and hold agro as good or better than any Ber or SK with thier aoe taunt. There is nothing wrong being second in the food chain I generally have to pay alot more attention to whats going on than the MT or someone who just along for ride but thats what I want. I like to think I save wipes from happening with my abilities. I got 2 sets of armor and adornments one for being back up tank and one for being utility healer/dps. Gaurdians got no roll if he/she is not MT and thats just all that they got I will keep my Pally.</div><hr></blockquote>If you don't think mitigation is king anymore then go take a peak at that Guardian vs Paladin tanking LoA thread.<div></div>

[hawsecav19d]

Kaleyen Mitigation is tops but its not the be all end all it used to be. There has to be a real number out there somewhere that #hps=pt of mit. I cant personally justify giving up1400hps and 7% avoidence for 2% mit of damage. Maybe after I have a full set of fabled I will feel diff but right now as offtank hps mean more to me cause I aint taking 90% of the damage in raid. In a group setting I take the ton of hps over a few % pts mitigation anyday. And Fatuus I understand what your saying about they used to be able to get to same mit but thats not completely true cause if Paly gets debuffed his mit just drops Guardians mitts debuffed he can hit a ability and get it back up till its cured. I see what your saying though. Key here being your at the very top end of raiding where as my guilds just starting your only 500hp more than the berserker I got my friend beat by 1400hp plus the wards being of equal skill lv where does enough hps put you into offtank slot in that situation. Later on when he closer to me in hps things will change but right now if you was leading a raid with those 2 as your 3-4th tanks who you going to make OT?<p>Message Edited by hawsecav19d on <span class=date_text>12-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 PM</span>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hawsecav19d wrote:<BR> Kaleyen Mitigation is tops but its not the be all end all it used to be. There has to be a real number out there somewhere that #hps=pt of mit. I cant personally justify giving up1400hps and 7% avoidence for 2% mit of damage. Maybe after I have a full set of fabled I will feel diff but right now as offtank hps mean more to me cause I aint taking 90% of the damage in raid. In a group setting I take the ton of hps over a few % pts mitigation anyday. And Fatuus I understand what your saying about they used to be able to get to same mit but thats not completely true cause if Paly gets debuffed his mit just drops Guardians mitts debuffed he can hit a ability and get it back up till its cured. I see what your saying though. Key here being your at the very top end of raiding where as my guilds just starting your only 500hp more than the berserker I got my friend beat by 1400hp plus the wards being of equal skill lv where does enough hps put you into offtank slot in that situation. Later on when he closer to me in hps things will change but right now if you was leading a raid with those 2 as your 3-4th tanks who you going to make OT? <P>Message Edited by hawsecav19d on <SPAN class=date_text>12-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:23 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>And Fatuus I understand what your saying about they used to be able to get to same mit but thats not completely true cause if Paly gets debuffed his mit just drops Guardians mitts debuffed he can hit a ability and get it back up till its cured. I see what your saying though.</FONT></P> <P>Dude you need to learn what classes do when tanking...in a normal group maybe would I use castigate on myself but when raiding VERY rarely (practically never) would I use it when raid tanking....HEALERS are there to cure dots and debuffs you must focus on getting aggro.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>your only 500hp more than the berserker I got my friend beat by 1400hp plus the wards being of equal skill lv where does enough hps put you into offtank slot in that situation.</FONT></P> <P>Wards last for 1 shot, Tower of stone lasts for 3 shots and absorbs 99 million damage (since its not limited).</P> <P> </P>

[Caetrel]

<hr size="2" width="100%">If you don't think mitigation is king anymore then go take a peak at that Guardian vs Paladin tanking LoA thread. <hr size="2" width="100%">The difference in mitigation is not the only factor in the melee damage received in that OP's account.    The guard took half the damage the pally did, it is not even possible that the guard mitigated twice as well.  That info is considering swings, not hits.  The guard got hit alot less, and that was the main diff in why the guard took so much less.  Mitigation is not king anymore, 63-65% or a bit higher is both all you need and also the best you can get.  It is also easy to achieve with any plate tank. Guards don't even necessarily have an avoidance edge on us anymore, but they stop taking hits from all the stoneskin-like stuff at their disposal.  Tower of Stone, AAs etc....That is what separates us from them so disparately now.   Temp mit buffs are only going to reduce the damage they take by 1-2% of the hits they receive while buffs are up. <div></div>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>Ok so if its not the mitigation thats making them better MT and its the ToS Stoneskin and parry abilities how far apart are we on blocking then pally should have the edge there being end aa is bonus to blocking we should be able to block better than any other tank now right? Max AA, 3% from adornments where does that stand then in the grand idea?</DIV> <DIV>      I wasnt saying that your should debuff yourself Fatuus was meaning that while our mitgation drops below the mean when we get debilitated a gaurds temp mit buffs can stay above the demishing returns line its healers job to cure you I was just meaning they got back up ability to stay on top of the curve we do not.</DIV>

[Quda]

I am very happy with my pally, he got me a lot of things, and now he sits on the self all nice and pretty.  I keep him under glass so he don't get all dusty like.

[MeridianR]

Mitigiation is good, up til 60-63%, then it is pretty worthless....HP and Avoidance is king in this expansion, since even 63% is pretty easy to get self buffed let alone raid buffed.Adornments such as:+7 parry+10/5 defenseAre the way to go...but thats just my opinion<div></div>