Paladins: What they need, what the want. [Archive]

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Rast

12-01-2006, 01:24 AM

<DIV> Often times what one thinks they want is not necessarily what one needs. So let’s get into a discussion of what exactly is needed and not needed to make us viable as main tanks. This is not a discussion on how to turn us into Guardian or Zerker lites, but rather a discussion starter to help us remain distinct but effective in the role that we rolled Paladins for. This is not a thread to begin bashing other tanks or to become like other tanks, this is about becoming BETTER Paladins. To come up with what we need, we need to determine what we should be. This is going to be subjective and I’m sure every single person who posts and/or reads this is going to have a different opinion, but since we have to start somewhere in this discussion, we’ll start with my opinion of what we should be. A Paladin should be a holy defender, our role should be superior defense and damage absorption though the use of deity given abilities. We shouldn’t mitigate the most, we shouldn’t avoid the most. Where we fall short of this is that while our mitigation is less, we do not have enough health and defense to compensate for this. Mitigation is and should be the realm of the warrior, so there for adding mitigation is out. Avoidance is the role of the brawlers, so that is really out (though we could be beefed up on this slightly (shield defense only) without stepping to harshly on toes), so that leaves us one last realm to touch. Health. The biggest complaint I hear is that Paladins simply can’t absorb the amount of damage they take due to the lower mitigation, so why not simply modify our defensive stance to give us +sta as well as the +wis, this would provide us with that little bit of leeway we need to survive the initial surge (and would make some of our AAs a bit more practical as well). In place of our 5 minute heal, I’d like to see a buff that gives us a solid +combat regen (the divine favor upon us so to speak), giving us a real boost in the tanking role. Make this self only (as the heal is as well) and this should give us ability without becoming like the others or becoming too overpowered either. The second biggest issue I hear is agro management. To this, I think we are ok, until we are in a raid where our best method of holding agro, amends, can not be cast upon a raid friend (as it is group only), simply modifying this to be raid/group would do wonders for our raid agro management. Another large issue is the fact that we have to push all 5 attributes to truly be effective. I’d like to see our spell damage moved from intelligence to wisdom, thus separating us just a bit more from our SK comrades. This still leaves us with 4 attributes, but that is better than 5. But this move makes sense lore wise as well, since it is the wisdom of ages that grants us the ability to do the damage, our wisdom should be what drives this damage as well. With this change, our offensive stance should be modified to str/wis as well, instead of str/int. The next issue is power consumption; we have to use far too much to be effective. I’d like to see not our power scaled up, but the costs scaled down by a small amount (maybe 10-15% at most, tweaked for best effect). This is a minor issue though, but can slow down a raid using a Paladin as a MT, as we have to expend so much to maintain the DPS factor we need to hold agro. More power isn’t the answer, because then you simply have more downtime to wait for it to recharge, using less is the best alternative as it provides the benefit needed without the unnecessary effects otherwise needed. I know even in heroic fights, I wind up using my manastone far more than I should (and the conjurer mana shard); this simply makes it harder on the healers than is truly necessary. The final issue I’d like to see addressed is the interrupts of our taunts and spells, no other tank suffers from this set back and to completely remove the stigma of being a ‘hybrid’ I suggest we move all of these spells to combat arts and remove the interrupt other than things that would interrupt a combat art. This would allow us to be effective without the fear of interrupts getting in the way. IMNSHO, I believe that Paladins shouldn’t even be coming close to out-healing pure healer classes, but this is what I’m hearing is happening. That isn’t right, we aren’t healers, we are tanks that should have a modicum of healing ability to compensate for our lower than other tanks DPS. This is the tradeoff we made when we rolled paladins over guardians.</DIV>

Fellindar

12-01-2006, 01:41 PM

<div></div>First off I agree that as Warriors are the Mit tanks, Brawlers are the Avoid tanks, crusaders should be the HP Tanks. Now Im not all that familiar with Shadowknight issues so I will, like you, focus on Paladins.We pretty much already have many of the tools to make us the HP tank class, wards, heals, and a buff that increases our hp (Blessing of the Pentient line). To improve our effectivness in this regard i feel only a few minor tweeks are needed.1) Remove interupts/significantly reduce chance of interupt on wards, this along with our new AA ward recast reduction would be pretty awsome2) To make our HP last longer I suggest the following. Give us an additional ward that is self only and shares the same recast timer with our existing ward (so we can only use one or the other). This self only ward would, in addition to the standard amount of hp absorption, have a very low (say 1% or 2%) chance of procing a short duration stun on the target that strikes us, this may not sound like much but over all through a whole combat it would reduce the amout of damage a mob could inflict upon us by a small, but important amount. The reason I say it would have to be a new self only ward is otherwise we could cast it on guardians for example and mess up game mechanics making guardians tougher than they already are.3) The final change would be a minor adjustment in the amount of HP our blessing of the pentient line gives us, just to push our hp up a little bit further.I personally feel that our power consumption is fine, expecially now with the changes to how power pools are calculated for classes that need 2 stats.A change to amends to make it castable on raid friends would be great too =).I haven't noticed any interupts on taunts, however if they do exist that needs to be fixed for sure.Over all Raston great post, I think a few moderate tweeks to our existing abilities with out any changes to our real class mechanics would be all that is needed to make paladins the HP tank for EQ2<div></div>Message Edited by Fellindar on 12-01-2006 12:46 AM

Boli32

12-01-2006, 04:12 PM

Personally I think a lot will be done to bolster the Paladin's favour would be to show the % chance of 'outright resisting' Spells often out completly resisted (100% mitigation) and no-one is too clear on how much that actually is.. Resisting a Poison DoT can be a lifesaver in T7 and while we can see how much we'll mitigate... we don;t know the outright resist chance.I'll admitt that the trauma is the path of the warriors but a buff that gives us a chance (20%?) to dispell any none trama debuffs/DoTs instead of a self cure would be fantastic and really push us forwards in the tanking stakes.<div></div>

Kaleyen

12-01-2006, 07:26 PM

Two thoughts come to mind. 1. Make us the resistance tank, give us some inate (sp?) higher resists then the other fighter classes. 2. Reduce the timer on our self heal and reduce the casting time of our ward. <div></div>

Fatuus

12-01-2006, 08:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote: <DIV> Often times what one thinks they want is not necessarily what one needs. So let’s get into a discussion of what exactly is needed and not needed to make us viable as main tanks. This is not a discussion on how to turn us into Guardian or Zerker lites, but rather a discussion starter to help us remain distinct but effective in the role that we rolled Paladins for. This is not a thread to begin bashing other tanks or to become like other tanks, this is about becoming BETTER Paladins. To come up with what we need, we need to determine what we should be. This is going to be subjective and I’m sure every single person who posts and/or reads this is going to have a different opinion, but since we have to start somewhere in this discussion, we’ll start with my opinion of what we should be. A Paladin should be a holy defender, our role should be superior defense and damage absorption though the use of deity given abilities. We shouldn’t mitigate the most, we shouldn’t avoid the most. Where we fall short of this is that while our mitigation is less, we do not have enough health and defense to compensate for this. Mitigation is and should be the realm of the warrior, so there for adding mitigation is out. Avoidance is the role of the brawlers, so that is really out (though we could be beefed up on this slightly (shield defense only) without stepping to harshly on toes), so that leaves us one last realm to touch. Health Ummm this is the role of the brawler <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. The biggest complaint I hear is that Paladins simply can’t absorb the amount of damage they take due to the lower mitigation, so why not simply modify our defensive stance to give us +sta as well as the +wis, this would provide us with that little bit of leeway we need to survive the initial surge (and would make some of our AAs a bit more practical as well). The crusader classes as described by SoE after LU 13 changed them to be the lowest hit point classes but highest base power pools on purpose. LU 29 furthered this by saying we could increase our base power pools by 25% since we must focus on 2 power stats instead of 1 like brawlers and warriors. In place of our 5 minute heal, I’d like to see a buff that gives us a solid +combat regen (the divine favor upon us so to speak), giving us a real boost in the tanking role. We already have aa's in the Wisdom line that does that if you choose to go this path...besides the realm of the group health regen/self regen has been a berserker trait since the game started. Make this self only (as the heal is as well) and this should give us ability without becoming like the others or becoming too overpowered either. The second biggest issue I hear is agro management. To this, I think we are ok, until we are in a raid where our best method of holding agro, amends, can not be cast upon a raid friend (as it is group only), simply modifying this to be raid/group would do wonders for our raid agro management. /agree Another large issue is the fact that we have to push all 5 attributes to truly be effective. I’d like to see our spell damage moved from intelligence to wisdom, thus separating us just a bit more from our SK comrades. This still leaves us with 4 attributes, but that is better than 5. But this move makes sense lore wise as well, since it is the wisdom of ages that grants us the ability to do the damage, our wisdom should be what drives this damage as well. With this change, our offensive stance should be modified to str/wis as well, instead of str/int. While this move may make sense to you lore wise, game wise it doesn't. All healer classes (furies especially) must focus on all 5 stats if they want to be effective at DPS and healing....Paladins should be no different in this regard. What should be different is we should get the same benefits at ministration and Heal amounts that healers get by increased Wisdom amounts. This only makes since if we are to heal...stop making us a [Removed for Content] at everything. The next issue is power consumption; we have to use far too much to be effective. I’d like to see not our power scaled up, but the costs scaled down by a small amount (maybe 10-15% at most, tweaked for best effect). This is a minor issue though, but can slow down a raid using a Paladin as a MT, as we have to expend so much to maintain the DPS factor we need to hold agro. More power isn’t the answer, because then you simply have more downtime to wait for it to recharge, using less is the best alternative as it provides the benefit needed without the unnecessary effects otherwise needed. I know even in heroic fights, I wind up using my manastone far more than I should (and the conjurer mana shard); this simply makes it harder on the healers than is truly necessary. Thats why paladins were supposed to get an increase to base power pools with LU 29. Still, even after that Paladins are still just equal to warriors in total power pools. Look at the leader boards on total power pool amounts and paladins have the same amount as warriors. I know from personal experience when I am at 650 STR and 500 WIS with my paladin I still have the same base power pools as a similarly geared out warrior. This is WRONG considering how much power our abilities are to use (and considering that they can get resisted a lot more then a warriors and brawlers CA's. The final issue I’d like to see addressed is the interrupts of our taunts and spells, no other tank suffers from this set back and to completely remove the stigma of being a ‘hybrid’ I suggest we move all of these spells to combat arts and remove the interrupt other than things that would interrupt a combat art. This would allow us to be effective without the fear of interrupts getting in the way. Every tank in game can be interupted when using a combat art. The reason why they are often not is due to the short cast timers on their abilities. There is no reason why our biggest nukes and wards are on a 2 second cast timer...thats insane. IMNSHO, I believe that Paladins shouldn’t even be coming close to out-healing pure healer classes, but this is what I’m hearing is happening. That isn’t right, we aren’t healers, we are tanks that should have a modicum of healing ability to compensate for our lower than other tanks DPS. This is the tradeoff we made when we rolled paladins over guardians. This is the funny thing, there never was much a trade off since orignally we had 1 ward and lay of hands......that was it. Guardians were given some damage absorbtion capabilites and some awesome traits (anchor anyone) that more then compensated for this fact. Its SOE that made the paladin a healer class well after the game started...and they have only continued down this path which is the wrong solution.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> 1) Personally I think they need to give us a strong self ward of say like 4k that is on a 1.5 minute timer like the bruisers self heal ability. 2) Do away with all the other heals and have a small group castable ward that is DESIGNED to draw aggro to the paladin like they used to have when the game started. 3) Give us a stronger base power pool like SOE claimed they were going to do. 4) Make amends raid friendly. 5) no direct heals other then LoH 6) make our offensive stance be a bigger difference. I get maybe an additional 150 DPS switching from defensive to offensive stances (and yes I have both at master I)...ask a zerker, SK, or guardian if they see a similar difference <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kaleyen

12-01-2006, 09:09 PM

Fatuus while you make some valid points in your thread I see one major flaw through it all. By making us more of a tank you take away from some of the utility that makes us able to have a raid spot while we're not MT'ing. Yeah if we were given a lot of what you ask for we'd be a better Raid MT, however a Warrior would still be better thus still be wanted as the raid MT. So then what does that do for us when it comes time to raid and we're now more geared towards tanking but the guard/zerker is the one who gets the call? <div></div>

Fatuus

12-01-2006, 11:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote: Fatuus while you make some valid points in your thread I see one major flaw through it all. By making us more of a tank you take away from some of the utility that makes us able to have a raid spot while we're not MT'ing. Yeah if we were given a lot of what you ask for we'd be a better Raid MT, however a Warrior would still be better thus still be wanted as the raid MT. So then what does that do for us when it comes time to raid and we're now more geared towards tanking but the guard/zerker is the one who gets the call? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Prior to KoS I was used lots of times for killing mobs that needed to be killed EXTREMELY fast for quick fast aggro control. The advantages that paladins had at that time was that we got 47% hate transfer from a target (amends master I) and sigil had a radius of 25 m for group effectiveness. This allowed us to still keep aggro generally even if a mob ran off to kill someone since even though we wouldn't be "close" we could still generate aggro. Avoidance was nerfed, and mitigation stats were pretty easy to cap......Therefore in those situations the damage absorbtion and mit buffs given by zerkers and guardians (guardians being absorbtion) were not as advantageous as a paladin's aggro control. While I was not always the MT, there were many times when I was chosen to tank simply because I held aggro far better then a similarly equiped guardian, zerker, or broke SK (at the time). Beyond that now that avoidance and mitigation play a stronger role, Hitpoints are king in the realm of raiding now. A well setup guardian or zerker group will have just as much aggro control as a normal (Pre EoF) Paladin MT group...if not better anymore. In addition to this their group would have about an additional 500 HP and 4% avoidance boost (BASE) not including the abilities of the zerker/gaurdian. This is fact. A paladin even before EoF really didn't have a strong raiding role. The only thing we brought to the table was some flexibility in raiding, but what every raiding guild did was have extra people they could swap out for various raid fights to optimize performance. Basically, we had no "great" value to the raid...a guardian was typically the best fit. When paladins were useful for raids was back in the DoF time periods when they "locked" raids with what you entered with.....in this time our flexibility WAS useful to raids...now like I said its "plug and chug." If you need further proof of this...when have you ever seen a raiding guild advertise for a paladin for raiding since T5? Making a paladin a better healer is not the answer, making them the right tank for various situations IS the answer. We either need better DPS when in offensive stance or adjusting our abilities to make us better tanks...because right now theres NO reason to raid with a paladin...and if you don't see that you are delusional.

Mortimus V.

12-02-2006, 02:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fellindar wrote: First off I agree that as Warriors are the Mit tanks, Brawlers are the Avoid tanks, crusaders should be the HP Tanks. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Anyone in here ever play City of Heroes? I know the Tanks over there are really the (aptly-named) Tankers, and these are Scrapper sets, but I still got this flash of: Warriors = Invulnerability Brawlers = Super Reflexes Crusaders = Regeneration If that's all greek to you, no worries. Just skip my post. :smileytongue:

EvilIguana9

12-02-2006, 10:08 PM

Simple fixes for tanking challenging content better:Reduce base casting time on heal and ward to 1.0 seconds.Reduce penitent sacrament line casting time to 1.0 seconds.Make amends castable on raid or group friend.Fix amends stacking issues. Add some sort of temporary immunity or damage reduction ability.The great thing about these changes is that, while they will improve us greatly, they will not at all change the perception of us to our competition. When warriors judge us, they do so through rose colored glasses that eliminate every restriction, bug, and limitation on our spells. Reducing the limitations means we operate closer to that fabled level of uber efficiency that they see. Ideally I'd like to see our heals and wards being as powerful as warrior damage reduction abilities while being costlier in terms of upkeep. Add that to our greater versatility and I think things would be more equitable. <div></div>

Boli32

12-02-2006, 10:29 PM

Leaving wards / heals out of it we have less avoidance / health and mitigaiton than ANY warrior... in fact we have the lowest avoidance out of all the tanks... the biggest fix we can get is the ability to USE the wards/heals in combat... epics and all. - Defensive stance to have +focus perhaps - Reducing cast and recast tim on wards/heals - possibly a new 'super self only ward' (akin to our 5min self only heal) <div></div>

Monfar

12-02-2006, 10:32 PM

What kind of effect would it have if our ward would have the same hitpoints (or a bit more) and only wards a certain % of the incoming dmg ?Like a mitigation buff but still paladin.-

Rast

12-04-2006, 07:31 PM

I'd like to see our sacrement line turned into a combat regen buff that equals out to that heal (I believe it is on a 5 minute timer) so the adept 1 lvl 40 devout sacrement would become a 3 hp per second regen buff, but only while in combat. I'd like to see our blessing line doubled for the amount of HPs it provides. Some small bonus for tanking with a shield should be granted as well. Guardians would still be 'better' tanks because of needing less healing overall, but we'd at least become competitive. The problem I see with what you are recommending Monfar is that we already have one of the, if not the lowest HPs of all the tanks, allowing more damage though would simply make us worse tanks (because we'd be even easier to kill). I still think the tanks should be broken down like this (and each should be viable for tanking in any situation) <UL> <LI>Warriors - Mitigation tank (simply doesn't get hurt)</LI> <LI>Brawlers - Offensive/Defensive avoidance tanks (simply doesn't get hit)</LI> <LI>Crusaders - HP/Regen Tank (Simply can take more punishment)</LI></UL> That would give each line their 'role' and wouldn't over power one (assuming the mechanics were working appropriately) to the others in their role of being a tank.

Kaleyen

12-04-2006, 07:57 PM

<blockquote><hr>Fatuus wrote:<div></div> Making a paladin a better healer is not the answer, making them the right tank for various situations IS the answer. We either need better DPS when in offensive stance or adjusting our abilities to make us better tanks...because right now theres NO reason to raid with a paladin...and if you don't see that you are delusional.<hr></blockquote>If anyone is delusional here it's those that want the class to be something it's not. It doesn't matter what OUR idea of how the class should be, it's SOE's and if you don't like how they have the class built then don't play it...that simple. Tanking...I don't raid tank and other then a "Oh hey guys lets go one group that x2" I don't think I ever will be. And to be honest I'd rather have other utility that would justify me taking a raid spot. What's a Guardian going to do if they're not tanking a raid? I don't want to be like a Guardian, never did that's why I didn't role one up! Alright, so I'm not the raid tank so what am I doing on raids? Well on named fights I out-heal or am right on scale with 90% of my guild's healers, when not healing I can do some damage...my DPS sucks but I can do a little bit! And keep amends on the glass cannon so they can go all out. And no, our healers don't suck and no I don't have Arch Heal yet. What I would like to see is a KoS or an inate ability to double attack....why don't we have this yet? Rez's- A group rez and a longer range then our current single target.<div></div>

Boli32

12-04-2006, 08:52 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Kaleyen wrote:<blockquote><hr>Fatuus wrote:<div></div> Making a paladin a better healer is not the answer, making them the right tank for various situations IS the answer. We either need better DPS when in offensive stance or adjusting our abilities to make us better tanks...because right now theres NO reason to raid with a paladin...and if you don't see that you are delusional.<hr></blockquote>If anyone is delusional here it's those that want the class to be something it's not. It doesn't matter what OUR idea of how the class should be, it's SOE's and if you don't like how they have the class built then don't play it...that simple. Tanking...I don't raid tank and other then a "Oh hey guys lets go one group that x2" I don't think I ever will be. And to be honest I'd rather have other utility that would justify me taking a raid spot. What's a Guardian going to do if they're not tanking a raid? I don't want to be like a Guardian, never did that's why I didn't role one up! Alright, so I'm not the raid tank so what am I doing on raids? Well on named fights I out-heal or am right on scale with 90% of my guild's healers, when not healing I can do some damage...my DPS sucks but I can do a little bit! And keep amends on the glass cannon so they can go all out. And no, our healers don't suck and no I don't have Arch Heal yet. What I would like to see is a KoS or an inate ability to double attack....why don't we have this yet? Rez's- A group rez and a longer range then our current single target.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I can spend an entire fight in a raid casting cures That's entirely possible... as strange as it might sound its actually unsual to see a healer going all out on healing... if that happens you're usually in trouble as cures arn't getting cured and debuffs not getting cast.</div>

Kaleyen

12-04-2006, 08:56 PM

<div></div>I'm not talking about the healers who are on cure duty either...of course I will out heal them, I didn't think that needed to be said. So what this means is that my class is able to be the MT for a T7 raiding guild (cause there are some Pallys who are), my class can heal right along side the priests (of which I am able to do) and my class can substain 700DPS (cause there are serveral Pallys who are doing this). I can personally only obtain 1 of the 3, I'll never been the MT for my guild which I am fine with, but while keeping my healing abilities I'm going to try to get some DPS involvement. Did I role my Pally to heal and do deeps on raids? Nope, sure didn't! But that's what SOE has made us into, I can either adapt to what I'm capable of doing with the tools that I have been given or not. <div></div>Message Edited by Kaleyen on 12-04-2006 10:04 AM

Wulfborne

12-04-2006, 09:01 PM

I find that heal parses can be rather misleading. If you check, most likely your 'high healers' are the ones that can ward. Simply put, It doesn't matter if the MT has 5 thousand reactive heals on him, not one will register if the damage never makes it through that ward. I know my guild's healers can outheal me, yet I can out parse a lot of them, too. ~Hawke

Kaleyen

12-04-2006, 09:05 PM

<div></div><div></div>Actually last night we had a Rambo Fury who was top'ing the heal parse. Basically here's my arguement. Right now Pallys are a waste of a raid spot if they aren't MT'ing. You take away some of our utility and give us more tanking abilities and we'll be even farther down the list to fill that 24 man raid when we aren't MT'ing. You want to make us raid valuable then fight for having some utility. <div></div>I know I'm not the only Paladin who is not the raid tank, and even if my tanking abilities were increased I still wouldn't be because my guild has two kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] warriors. I'm sure this isn't an uncommon setup for people who raid T7 regularly. So you want to take away what I can offer in a raid so you can tank better? Cause that's what you'd be doing to myself and the others that are in my same situation. You would only be helping a small percentage of the population base.Message Edited by Kaleyen on 12-04-2006 10:39 AM

Yimway

12-04-2006, 11:24 PM

A Paladins role isn't to be a Raid MT. I'm not sure why everyone thinks the class is broken if they can't do the job as well or better than other Tank classes.Paladins are a specific encounter type raid MT. For example, if you are spec'd with fear immunity, there are Raid targets that you will be promoted to MT for.However, I argue the classes role lies in a support tank.With the changes with EoF, a paladin in MT groups can offer significant bonuses.1. Additional wards, heals, lay hands, cures, etc.2. Stat buffs from AA lines. Upping your and the MT's melee stats up increases the ability for taunts to land.3. Mitigation transference Buffs - Only class to get anything like this, and its a defining ability that is too often over looked. With changes to mitigation this support role is even more important.This places you in the position to take over tanking if/when the MT falls. Your getting MT group buffs, and should be the most ready to assume agro and tanking durring recoveries, you provide excelent means of augmenting other tanks. You can build yourself to this spec and still remain a very effective heroic tank.You have the ability to spec for melee stats, faster heals, lowering others agro, all at the same time providing additional combat bonuses to other tank classes. This is absolutely the definition of the Crusader role-type. The only additional ability I would like to see added is the sacrifice ability. Allow the crusader to take a death to throw a CH on a target. Find ways to excel within your class, they are there. There are already so many abilities and configurations that are absolutely unique to your class.<div></div>

Rast

12-04-2006, 11:25 PM

Actually, what I was suggesting wouldn't take away from your healing ability at all (other than a single self heal, which is worthless unless you are getting hit anyways) but yet give those who want to tank (like myself, I didn't roll a pally to be a healer, that is what I have my templar for, tyvm) a better option. All I really want is a little more HPs (a doubling of our celestrial line) a self heal turned into a combat heal regen and our amends to be raid friendly instead of group friendly. How would any of that preclude your ability to heal? It doesn't, but it would make those like me who WANT to tank have the ability to do so. I'm not asking for a change to our AAs (in fact, what I'm asking for would augment them to a lessor degree), I'm not asking for anything but the ability to do my chosen role (the ability to tank) better while NOT nerfing anyone else.

Kaleyen

12-04-2006, 11:32 PM

That's the thing, if you want to increase one aspect of us then you'll have to decrease another. I was more so replying to the person who wanted to give us more tanking tools and lose some of our healing ability. Also, even with EoF there isn't a spot in the MT group for the pally. <div></div>

Rast

12-04-2006, 11:43 PM

I disagree, I think we should be allowed to use our aspect to be the MT (we are a plate class fighter for goodness sakes, what does it take to be a tank???). I'm removing a seldom used heal (because of interupts and it's nature of being self only) and turning it into something usable. I'm advocating a realignment of our HPs because of our lower mitigation and defense. I'm advocating the ability to use our abilities while being hit (which is the justification for us to not have the mitigation in the first place). I'm more for minor tweaks to our abilities to make them more useful while maintaining the concept of a Paladin in mind. I don't want to be a guardian/zerker lite, I just want to use my abilities in a manner to do the job we were promised to be capable of and that is to be a tank, personally, I do not think that is too much to ask for. I wouldn't even mind if we were the situational tank, but right now, we do not even have that as the guardian/zerker is ALWAYS the better choice, or so close as to not matter. To me, that isn't right.

Kaleyen

12-04-2006, 11:56 PM

A very simple solution to this would be make Crusaders the resist tank, give us higher base resists then the other fighters. That way against some mobs that their damage is based off of spell damage we would be looked to for tanking. <div></div>

Rast

12-04-2006, 11:59 PM

I would agree with that if Guards/zerkers couldn't easily get resist gear to match us without a problem if there were many mobs that worked on this concept in the first place. Right now, mitigation is king and until that changes (I know it has changes partially with EoF) and other damage types are done regularily, it wouldn't matter if we were the resist tank.

OrcSlayer96

12-05-2006, 01:17 AM

<DIV>At work so i can only toss up a few ideas....</DIV> <DIV>Warriors should be the highest mitigation tanks, Brawlers the highest avoidance tanks and Crusaders should fit in between. Currently with the way EOF is turning out i am going more towards boosting my avoidance while still retaining my mitigation gear. With EOF adornments and the hero line we should be kings of blocking, achieving at least 27% if not more. We should have the plus parry skill added onto our defensive stance just like what warriors and brawlers have for more avoidance. With those changes coupled with a shield we should be higher than warriors on avoidance and less than brawlers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Redo our divine favor spell from a death ward that is very ulikely to save you, to a power tap proc that is self only buff along the same lines as our self only divine proc/stun buff. This will use up another of our concentration bubbles and the exact numbers can be tweaked on how much power can be recieved on a successful proc. It would help on long fights(when we solo heriocs) or in raid situations and would not be a unballanced buff for us. We have in our EOF lines options to reduce our single and group heals power cost 15% and .5 sec casting time, we also have the option to make our ward recast in 10 secs instead of 15 secs and reduce our recast on lay on hands down from 15 mins to 10. I would like our EOF rez to be changed to increase the range of it for 1 meter per point at least for range to give us at least a 5-6 meter range(would be nice for 10 meter range but unlikely they will change that. Shaving 15 secs off the rez is nice but finding the target would be more useful for me than the reduced recast timer. Change our former two handed only line of combat arts to at least do double damage to undead or more prefered to me a larger attack if weilding a two handed weapon. Right now that line is blah at best.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the hero line we bolster our self health buff quite nicely, would be even more nice to tweak it to give 20% bonus per point so you would double your health on you. Even with EOF aa's our self heal sacrament line is still unreliable and should have a reduced recast timer down to 2 mins and labeled as a combat art with 1 sec cast and not interrupted by moving around. Keep the power cost on it and it would be the balance to having it at a quicker recast. Look at our stuns we have and make sure they are at the correct duration. At level 70 i should be seeing 2.5 and 2 sec stuns but i know some are mislabeled. Maybe a .5 second doesnt sound like much but on alot of our spells it can be the difference between a successful cast and a interrupt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still think we should have all of our combat arts at least do double damage to undead, it is what we are portayed to be most effective against and we have a few arts that do it. Having our base setup as undead slayers then branching off that to if a paladin want to devote his abilities more to tanking/healing/damage or support would give us more of a identity then a class that has alot of utulity but not much unique abilities that another class can do better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently i am having a blast with EOF and enjoy grouping with players with some of the changes i have done to my player. I am having less damage taken boosting my skills in defense/parry/block thru adornments then if i tossed another 200 mitigation or so on. Even switched over to the shield of Wyrms in favor to the draconic deflector for most fights.</DIV>

Seomon

12-05-2006, 03:42 AM

I didn't really read the other posts, so if I'm saying something that someone else said, good. 1) Change the heals/wards Combat Arts. 2) Reduce casting time of heals/wards to 1 sec, but increase recast time so that the time taken between initial cast, and next cast, is the same. 3) Change AAs to reflect this, and make the AA reduce recast time, instead of cast time. 3) Change self-heal to insta-cast, like LoH. 4) Give us some +Block instead of +WIS on our Def Stance. That's pretty much all I can think of right now. I would like to see Amends get changed to something else, because I hate depending on someone else, especially when they go AFK and don't tell anyone, and it looks bad on you and not them.

Madbiker

12-05-2006, 05:45 AM

<DIV>Good points, MAKE WIS = MIT too duh.... </DIV>

Fatuus

12-05-2006, 07:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote: Making a paladin a better healer is not the answer, making them the right tank for various situations IS the answer. We either need better DPS when in offensive stance or adjusting our abilities to make us better tanks...because right now theres NO reason to raid with a paladin...and if you don't see that you are delusional. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If anyone is delusional here it's those that want the class to be something it's not. It doesn't matter what OUR idea of how the class should be, it's SOE's and if you don't like how they have the class built then don't play it...that simple. Tanking...I don't raid tank and other then a "Oh hey guys lets go one group that x2" I don't think I ever will be. And to be honest I'd rather have other utility that would justify me taking a raid spot. What's a Guardian going to do if they're not tanking a raid? I don't want to be like a Guardian, never did that's why I didn't role one up! Alright, so I'm not the raid tank so what am I doing on raids? Well on named fights I out-heal or am right on scale with 90% of my guild's healers, when not healing I can do some damage...my DPS sucks but I can do a little bit! And keep amends on the glass cannon so they can go all out. And no, our healers don't suck and no I don't have Arch Heal yet. What I would like to see is a KoS or an inate ability to double attack....why don't we have this yet? Rez's- A group rez and a longer range then our current single target. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Then you have crappy healers. Keep in mind that when you give people rezes their entire health becomes a "heal" as well so heal parses for paladins can be very misleading. A templar alone on their single target direct (out of group) heal heals for almost as much as your ward and direct heals heal for. If your healers can't out parse you its simply because they are terrible. With normal heals you have only 3 heals without the heal line...and one of them requires you to be in the MT group to use (at a high power cost mind you). Healers heals refresh on average 2 seconds faster then the recast timers on a paladin's heals....which means they can heal more. Plus, healers have better group buffs then a paladin has for any group. So if you are justifying your whole purpose for raiding is because you can heal...wake up and smell the coffee. Lastly if you are stating that you can do more damage then a healer yes this is correct, but you can't do ANY when you are constantly healing...to include automelee damage. And for the use of us as a "hate gain" reduxer, a troub does a hellishly better job of this then any paladin can do with a group hate redux of over 40% for the group...not including hate redux that can be cast cross raid by a coercer on your "heavy hitters." There is no reason to have a paladin on a raid currently.........period.Message Edited by Fatuus on 12-05-2006 06:06 AM

Wulfborne

12-05-2006, 08:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote: There is no reason to have a paladin on a raid currently.........period. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> This may be true for you and your guild, but that doesn't mean everyone falls into that category. Mine has reason to bring me on every raid I'm online for. People are constantly coming and going over the course of the night. We don't always have "the uber-ultimate-optimum setup" for every raid. When we have sufficient healers online for the raid, I am able to dps decently, or offtank when some spike damage catches a healer sleeping and the MT eats it. If a healer hits their "time-up" for playing and has to go, the raid doesn't end, since I can help support the healers with my extra wards and heals. I am *constantly* playing the part of the raid safety net. I happen to play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good paladin. When I'm online, people want me at that raid. (Well, except maybe a certain bruiser that I love to give crap to on a regular basis). ~Hawke

OrcSlayer96

12-05-2006, 09:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote: There is no reason to have a paladin on a raid currently.........period. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> This may be true for you and your guild, but that doesn't mean everyone falls into that category. Mine has reason to bring me on every raid I'm online for. People are constantly coming and going over the course of the night. We don't always have "the uber-ultimate-optimum setup" for every raid. When we have sufficient healers online for the raid, I am able to dps decently, or offtank when some spike damage catches a healer sleeping and the MT eats it. If a healer hits their "time-up" for playing and has to go, the raid doesn't end, since I can help support the healers with my extra wards and heals. I am *constantly* playing the part of the raid safety net. I happen to play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good paladin. When I'm online, people want me at that raid. (Well, except maybe a certain bruiser that I love to give crap to on a regular basis). ~Hawke <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> We appear to be in similar guilds, Hawke. I am sorry Faatus if you are having problems in raids and i feel your pain on the tanking side of things, but I would be willing to bet there is alot more paladins out there in raids than not in raids. Sure i think some things need tweaked to make our abilities more reliable when tanking but like Hawke has said i find myself in alot of roles in raids. I am hoping the time i am putting into building up block/defense/parry to help me tank will be a asset along with putting points into the support and heal lines now that i have finished the hero line. Getting and keeping Aggro i have had little problem so now i need to reduce the damage the mobs are doing to me, hence upgrading my avoidance skills and hoping that some of our spells are looked at in the future.

Rast

12-06-2006, 01:29 AM

My short opinion on whether we should be tanks or not is: If we weren't meant to be tanks, then why are we plate wearing fighters? Give us the tools to do our job without making us guardian lites and I'll be happy.

Yimway

12-06-2006, 04:01 AM

<div>Wow, you are such the troll....Your stat buffs alone in a melee group are very significant post EoF, providing you went down that AA line. This plus your dps and heal utility provides sufficient cause for atleast one paladin in a raid.<blockquote><hr>Fatuus wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr></blockquote>And for the use of us as a "hate gain" reduxer, a troub does a hellishly better job of this then any paladin can do with a group hate redux of over 40% for the group...not including hate redux that can be cast cross raid by a coercer on your "heavy hitters." There is no reason to have a paladin on a raid currently.........period.Message Edited by Fatuus on 12-05-2006 06:06 AM<hr></blockquote></div>

Boli32

12-06-2006, 03:41 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Yimway wrote:<div>Wow, you are such the troll....Your stat buffs alone in a melee group are very significant post EoF, providing you went down that AA line. This plus your dps and heal utility provides sufficient cause for atleast one paladin in a raid.</div><hr></blockquote>If you want buffs... bring a bard.</div>

Fatuus

12-06-2006, 08:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yimway wrote: <DIV>Wow, you are such the troll.... Your stat buffs alone in a melee group are very significant post EoF, providing you went down that AA line. This plus your dps and heal utility provides sufficient cause for atleast one paladin in a raid. <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> And for the use of us as a "hate gain" reduxer, a troub does a hellishly better job of this then any paladin can do with a group hate redux of over 40% for the group...not including hate redux that can be cast cross raid by a coercer on your "heavy hitters." There is no reason to have a paladin on a raid currently.........period. Message Edited by Fatuus on 12-05-2006 06:06 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I will chaulk your info in the realm of the "unenlightened" when it comes to other classes....hmmm...bards...dirges specifically have 2X better group buffs then paladins do... Paladins.... -8% chance for group to proc about 150 to 200 damage that can be increased to a whooping 13% IF you go the support aa lines in EoF -85 WIS 51 STR if you max out the EoF AA ability -Wisdom aa's (that noone really uses anymore for raiding) gives a max boost to 35 to disruption, crushing, ministration, yada yada. -64 HP per 6 seconds group regen -200 to 350 damage on slash (rarely ever saw it proc) for group. -1% increase in spell damage, recast timer reduction, and heal increases. This all sounds great but examine what a DIRGE can do... -22% chance for group to proc 200 to 300 damage on combat art use -36% group DPS mod -Increases STR and AGI of group by 110 (if you take the appropriate aa lines in KoS) -Gives group a noxious and disease WARD with EoF aa's -Cacocphony of blades lasts 17 seconds (with appropriate aa EoF lines) that increases group haste 45% and procs 200 to 300 damage on EVERY melee or combat art (45 second recast timer). This haste buff can be increased with appropriate KOS aa lines to about 55%...btw this is LITTERALLY crack for swashes, brawlers, and zerkers...they can easily hit 2k dps with a dirge in their group and in DPS mode. -14% chance to crit on all spell, melle, or heals in group. -5% decrease to casting timers -4% in combat running speed buff -Increases any group members proc chance by 25% for any ability they have in group. So a proc chance on a weapon that was 10% is now 12.5%....etc. -50 in combat power regen (with appropriate EoF aa's) Note: I am not touching what a dirge encounter debuffs for (mit, attack speed, str agi, all magic resists, yada yada) and single target buffs. ............................ But paladins can rez right? ............................ Dirges can now rez players with a 30 second recast that have NO REZ EFFECTS on them anymore. AND they have a group rez ability. ........................... BTW I was just listing what a dirge could do...I won't bother going into what a troub can do as well. What classes that makeup a raid aren't as critcal for some zones as they are becoming for higher tier zones....balance is becoming a HUGE aspect to the game....and there is very little balance a paladin brings to a raid force currently that can't be done HUGELY better by another class. A dirge in a melee group will add more DPS to those players then a paladin going all out DPS WITH their group buffs could ever hope to give the raid. A troub does more for a caster group then a paladin EVER could for increasing their overall DPS amounts....this is fact not fiction. Dirges and troubs are examples of great support classes. Illusionists and Coercers are another. All 4 of these classes bring much needed buffs and abilities that magnify their value on a raid. If paladins are supposed to be a more support type of class they need to be given unique abilities they can bring to the table that assist them to do that. .................................................. ................................. Lets look at the support aa lines. The end one allows the paladin to cure all types of spell dots not for a TON...but a good amount. Healers are FAR better at this then a paladin...they give better group buffs, and SOME have awesome cure abilities. A templar has a chance for a reactive HEAL to be placed on the player CURED that can heal as well as their normal reactive heal lines...this heal should also stack with their normal reactive too. Paladins get a 13% chance to melee hit for group (with EoF lines choosen)....well I already smashed that one pretty hard. Paladins can increase group mit by 720 to entire group to non fighters (well mit is still broke and useless atm, theres something wrong when its better to tank in cloth then plate). Already talked about the group WIS STR thing...only really useful for Inquistors...and if they wanna melee...Fanaticism FTW. Really thats about it for our support role abilities other then the reductions on rez reuse timers. .................................................. ............................... I know I am sounding pessimistic about our class.......what I am asking is that we excell at doing SOMETHING.....SOMETHING. Hell, even if its taking out the garbage. There is nothing that a paladin does that can't be done by another class 2X better. Healing now we sadly come in close (if you take the appropriate aa lines) to other healer classes depending on what type of fight it is. Message Edited by Fatuus on 12-06-2006 11:25 AM

Yimway

12-07-2006, 12:25 AM

Sigh...What does your melee dps group look like?Dirgeroguerogueroguehealerillus? or rogue?Your stat buffs still stack with the dirge ones.Dirgeroguerogueroguehealerpaladin<div></div>My arguement is what you add to this group, plus your natural dps, plus your healing output, plus your hate management makes you just as viable 6th to this group as would say a troub, or illus, or whatever.But I realize for you the sky is falling and you don't want to see any other PoV.Good day.

Caetrel

12-07-2006, 12:43 AM

<hr size="2" width="100%">But I realize for you the sky is falling and you don't want to see any other PoV. <hr size="2" width="100%">Most pallies don't think the sky is falling so much as that it fell already. My favorite Bob Dylan lyric is "We always did feel the same we just saw it from a different point of view". I think alot of us feel the same way, we just tend to break into two camps when it comes out in translation. Two camps. The pallies who believe we have use. And the pallies who think we need to be better. Both the same IMO, depends on which side of the bed we wake up on. <div></div>

Fatuus

12-07-2006, 12:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yimway wrote: Sigh... What does your melee dps group look like? Dirge rogue rogue rogue healer illus? or rogue? Your stat buffs still stack with the dirge ones. Dirge rogue rogue rogue healer paladin My arguement is what you add to this group, plus your natural dps, plus your healing output, plus your hate management makes you just as viable 6th to this group as would say a troub, or illus, or whatever. But I realize for you the sky is falling and you don't want to see any other PoV. Good day. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Best melee dps group...... Zerker Dirge Monk Bruser Swash Inquistor In this group setup (with a brigand on the raid for dispatch) you can have your zerker, monk, bruiser and swash easily DPS for 1.5k to 2k dps routinely and consistently. Thats 6 to 8 k DPS just in one group, not including the caster group which contains the troub. Only half of our spells would cause the cacophony attack to proc during the 17 seconds...and most of those are fast combat arts...but very low damage (shield bash, etc). ALL of the scout, brawler, and warrior classes ONLY use combat arts...so everything they use would proc. When I play I ONLY play in the caster group to help try and siphon off some of their hate gain in addition the the troub already in the group...since the troub's PoM also helps me dps more then a troub would. But in full offensive mode (note I only have a 1h axe not 2h yet) in the melee dps group (with 700 STR and 450 INT) I parse for about 750 DPS against single mobs to about 1.3k dps against multimobs. And FYI I only have one spell not at master I that I use in game. I went DPS lines too, STR and INT...I haven't gone the wrath lines because the additional maybe 25% DPS boost it will give me still leaves me severely lacking when compared to other DPS classes. LASTLY if you are in a DPS group and you are trying to DPS...WHY would you WANT AGGRO from a dps class?Message Edited by Fatuus on 12-06-2006 11:48 AM

Yimway

12-07-2006, 03:54 AM

<div>Pally class has always been a Hybrid that is a bit of a jack of all trades. Capable of doing some of everything but no one thing better than any other class. The utility, and diversity is what gives this class strength.Seems everyone wants to assume that if they can't do any one of the things they do as good as or better than a well tuned other class that means pallys have no value. <blockquote><hr>Caetrel wrote:<hr size="2" width="100%">But I realize for you the sky is falling and you don't want to see any other PoV. <hr size="2" width="100%">Most pallies don't think the sky is falling so much as that it fell already. My favorite Bob Dylan lyric is "We always did feel the same we just saw it from a different point of view". I think alot of us feel the same way, we just tend to break into two camps when it comes out in translation. Two camps. The pallies who believe we have use. And the pallies who think we need to be better. Both the same IMO, depends on which side of the bed we wake up on. <div></div><hr></blockquote></div>

hawsecav19d

12-07-2006, 05:55 AM

<DIV>Only thing I need is a no cast time on my wards and heals make them a combat art and I become better than Gaurdians as MT. Anyone not believe that to be true speak up. With that happening the extra Mit they got becomes null.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I want is same as above if I cant get that then give me STA to my Defence stance extra 130STA be usefull to say least. Those 2 things changed and I bet 99% of Pallies will quit whining all the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] time about not being able to compete with gaurdians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And Fatuus I like you meet you on server couple times asked you some questions you was very helpfull. You used to post alot of helpfull information on these boards as well. I know you are disgruntalled with way Pally have went but ragging everyone who posts anything on boards isnt helping any of us. I glad you give as much input as you do but for a good while now you have belittled and just told people they was stupid for having ideas on ways to play the class now. This isnt pre LU13-14 anymore when they changed things from pally hayday as its going on LU30 next time. Please quit tearing into people, push for things that you want fixed, changed but dont take away from everyone by ripping into our class or ideas that dont conform to your own its not very nice.</DIV>

Saint Ma

12-08-2006, 03:39 AM

<DIV> By the way before i go on my rant i want you to know that i thought all of your ideas for improvement where good ones. (though i have little faith any of them will ever materialize) It seems to me SOE always thinks of us last. We are almost an after thought when it comes to anything. We should be MT's yet we keep getting the leftovers after they are done with the guardians and berserkers. My main is a pally and i am sick of getting the leftovers [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it. They need to sit down and spend a little time on improving us rather then nerfing us into oblivion. If i wanted to be a healer i would have rolled a templer (I have one but they are boring). I am seeing many similarities as of late. Hmm crappy dps, inability to hold aggro, oh and yes i can heal and rez people even more then i did before. There is one thing that pallys are the best at though holding the zone open. Heck why not just move us in with them and be done with it so i can just abandon my pally for a real warrior/MT rather then have me hope that you will ever make us the protectors of faith we should be. Thanks allot your disgruntled dwarvian pally EROM DOORSTOP your disgruntled dwarvian pally and former warrior class member. PS: I am so sick of you SOE making us Pallys bend over and take it in the you know what. PSS: Ive been holding all that anger for a long time and i thought when EOF came out you would make things right but boy was i wrong.</DIV>