paladin - tank anything?

[MikeMatsumo]

<div></div>If you are not a pally maybe this topic its not for you.Please, dont make flame wars here. I just wanna talk about paladin class. PLEASE keep good conversation and ideas, so soe can read this.First question, any paladin here already tank ALL hard mobs in t7 zones? Like tarinax? I never had a chance. Because im my guild all times the best plate items go to guardians and they never let me try. So, i dont know if I can. Pleope just keep saying "you cant". This is a myth?Second question, are you happy with your class? I mean, looks like we are not a full fighters, and looks like SOE making us a healer or support class.My question for soe is, WHY a raid need have a pally in groups? My point is, pally are a support class here. This is really correcty?If you think in most RPG pallys are not support class. They are FIGHTER. FULL Fighter, and in free time they can help heal a little. King Arthur is the most know paladin. Eomir from Lord of The Ring too. Is he a support class?I really think SOE needs think better about paladin class.<div></div><p>Message Edited by MikeMatsumoto on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 AM</span>

[Turb]

I am happy enough with my pally's tanking ability in groups. Excellent aggro control, very good set of AoE attacks to snap aggro if needed, reactive hate through wards, and useful emergency abilities.In a raid scenario I haven't personally tanked hard t7 zones. We certainly bring useful abilities to the table, made more useful with EoF, in particular the melee/casting skill buff (AA WIS line) which is now more important and the mit transfer bonus (previously useless due to caps), so I am seeing pallies in MT groups. It's been a bit hard to judge in detail so far because the old t7 zones were out of whack for a while post-EoF.What problem are you specifically seeing? You ask if people CAN tank all t7 content, then demand that SoE improve paladins without knowing the answer. Seems a bit odd to me.

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>MikeMatsumoto wrote:<div></div>If you are not a pally maybe this topic its not for you.Please, dont make flame wars here. I just wanna talk about paladin class. PLEASE keep good conversation and ideas, so soe can read this.First question, any paladin here already tank ALL hard mobs in t7 zones? Like tarinax? I never had a chance. Because im my guild all times the best plate items go to guardians and they never let me try. So, i dont know if I can. Pleope just keep saying "you cant". This is a myth?Second question, are you happy with your class? I mean, looks like we are not a full fighters, and looks like SOE making us a healer or support class.My question for soe is, WHY a raid need have a pally in groups? My point is, pally are a support class here. This is really correcty?If you think in most RPG pallys are not support class. They are FIGHTER. FULL Fighter, and in free time they can help heal a little. King Arthur is the most know paladin. Eomir from Lord of The Ring too. Is he a support class?I really think SOE needs think better about paladin class.<div></div><p>Message Edited by MikeMatsumoto on <span class="date_text">11-27-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:09 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>A bunch of things.1. Post on the pally boards if you want pally's to talk2. Pally's are a great group tank if not one of the best.3. Who cares what most RPGs think of Pally's. You are playing EQ2 and therefore must go by what SOE feels the pally is4. Your mitigation is way lower than a guardian/bererker5. Pally's a re useful on raids. They have many procs, they can battle rez, and they can share their mitigation. Put them in a caster DPS group and they can slap amends on the wizzie. Coupled with a troubador this allows caster groups to do crazy DPS.If you are not happy with the class, roll a class that will do the things you want to do.</div>

[Hekynn]

<DIV>hehe I just turned into a Paladin and I hear they tank better than Sk's when they get their spells and arts upgraded <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<P>There are plenty of high end raiding guilds that have Pallies as their MT. With good gear, we can tank just about anything with no problem.</P> <P>Heh....just this past weekend, I tanked an Epic x2 in a group of just 4 people including myself and we spanked it..../shrug.</P>

[Majorminor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> <P> I tanked an Epic x2 in a group of just 4 people including myself and we spanked it..../shrug.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Bah Dreadwake doesn't count /giggle :smileytongue:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Roriondesexiest]

Our pallie tanked coroslander on Friday (we are a noob rading group.. so it was a big deal for us...) <div></div>

[Geekyone]

<DIV>I'm very displeased with how the Paladin is not a ture fighter in EQ2.  And this is made even worse with the EoF AA's  that gave us absolutly no tanking help.</DIV>

[interstellarmatter]

<P>Personally, I think that the Pally is doing pretty good in Sony's vision for the class.  It definitely does not lack the role that other classes are asking Sony to define better.  It's a class used in an all top raid guilds (while certain other classes are being excluded atm).  Sure they may not use them for tanking.  It's only because they are trying to maximize the raid's potential.</P> <P>That being said for the Pally's role in the top raiding guilds, it's different story for casual raiding guilds.  I've seen them use both a Pally/SK for MT roles in T7.  They just need to be gear properly.</P>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geekyone wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm very displeased with how the Paladin is not a ture fighter in EQ2.  And this is made even worse with the EoF AA's  that gave us absolutly no tanking help.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Blocking doesn't help?

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Majorminor wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> <P> I tanked an Epic x2 in a group of just 4 people including myself and we spanked it..../shrug.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Bah Dreadwake doesn't count /giggle :smileytongue:</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL....wrong one.<BR>

[Windowlicker]

<P>I watched a Pally tank an instance with a 75^^^ named twice last night.  She only died once.</P> <P> </P>

[MikeMatsumo]

<div></div>bentgate, i will ignore your message.Turb0t you right. Maybe Im asking for SOE improve something that dont need.So, again i will only ask: - Any pally already tank ALL nameds in t7? Like tarinax?Lets see if is possible or no. :p<a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=158297"></a><div></div>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<DIV>SK could tank everything including Tarinax before the combat changes. Don't see why Pally couldn't too. Few added god abilities, and extra EoFupgrades,  etc and should still be able to as well.</DIV><p>Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:45 AM</span>

[MikeMatsumo]

you already tank after combat changes?<div></div>

[Kaleyen]

<blockquote><hr>MikeMatsumoto wrote:<div></div>First question, any paladin here already tank ALL hard mobs in t7 zones? Like tarinax? I never had a chance. Because im my guild all times the best plate items go to guardians and they never let me try. So, i dont know if I can. Pleope just keep saying "you cant". This is a myth? <font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">There have been several Paladins to tank DT, I however am not one of them. </font>Second question, are you happy with your class? I mean, looks like we are not a full fighters, and looks like SOE making us a healer or support class. <font color="#ffff00">I am and then I'm not all at the same time.  I feel that there are just a few tweaks that are needed to help my class out to really be valuable.</font>My question for soe is, WHY a raid need have a pally in groups? My point is, pally are a support class here. This is really correcty? <font color="#ffff00">My sole purpose in raids is for my amends on the wizard.  My rez is a longer cast time then the dirge rez so I'm rarely ever rez'ing on a raid, especially when we have two dirges on a raid.</font> <hr></blockquote><div></div>

[Windowlicker]

<DIV>Further to that, I've been seeing Pally's hit for some pretty large amounts with this new bow attack.  I'm sorry, but the Pally's I know seem to do very well tanking virtually everything in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And trust me, I know some Pally's.  They keep my Warlock alive.</DIV>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

Was my first time back in DT last night after EoF. We had a bad turn of luck deep in and called it early, but didn't notice any real difference in tanking between the Guard and SK up to that point. I don't doubt a similarly geared Paladin could have as well. Make a few investments in some upgrades and adornements and reevaluate your AAs. A few changes to my playstyle were needed also in my case.

[Effie]

<HR> <DIV>I'm very displeased with how the Paladin is not a ture fighter in EQ2.  And this is made even worse with the EoF AA's  that gave us absolutly no tanking help. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why would they be.</DIV> <DIV>In EQ they were a cleric/fighter hybrid.</DIV> <DIV>Nothing ever written or said about EQ2 could have lead you to believe that they were <EM>true</EM> fighters. </DIV> <DIV>That's the role of Berserkers and Guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins (if they are played well) are awesome tanks for groups... probably the best choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Turb0T wrote:<BR>I am happy enough with my pally's tanking ability in groups. Excellent aggro control, very good set of AoE attacks to snap aggro if needed, reactive hate through wards, and useful emergency abilities.<BR><BR>In a raid scenario I haven't personally tanked hard t7 zones. We certainly bring useful abilities to the table, made more useful with EoF, in particular the melee/casting skill buff (AA WIS line) which is now more important and the mit transfer bonus (previously useless due to caps), so I am seeing pallies in MT groups. It's been a bit hard to judge in detail so far because the old t7 zones were out of whack for a while post-EoF.<BR><BR>What problem are you specifically seeing? You ask if people CAN tank all t7 content, then demand that SoE improve paladins without knowing the answer. Seems a bit odd to me.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I helped tank Tarinax last night. I was a 2 hit wonder.....</P> <P>In regards to a few of the above stated comments.....</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>We certainly bring useful abilities to the table, made more useful with EoF, in particular the melee/casting skill buff (AA WIS line) which is now more important and the mit transfer bonus (previously useless due to caps), so I am seeing pallies in MT groups.</FONT></P> <P>I used to have the Wis line, its pointless now with the EoF release. Yes you can increase the disruption, melee, blah blah...but it only helps melee to hit the mob and casters to nuke a little harder........hardly a reason to be in the MT group. If you are in the MT group you need to be there FOR A REASON. Paladins simply give little or no use to the MT group anymore...we are there simply for the squishies that I will get to in a bit. You've gotta learn what other classes bring to the table to help make the raid force...as a whole...fight better. I have main tanked before in zones and raid mobs frequently prior to LU 26 and after....the bottom line is that the huge difference we have between our class and others for tanking is this...lower avoidance, lower mit, and no damage absorbtion abilities other then miracles.</P> <P>With the advent of LU26, the huge difference is that debuffs have become HUGE for raids. It takes TIME for these debuffs to get on the mobs to make the attacks easier to live thru. Raid mobs are routinely hitting 4k a shot, and can easily do 12k in simple melee damage in less then 2 seconds. This makes damage absorbtion on pulls a HUGE factor, we simply DON'T have it...nor can get close to a warrior class in this regard. Lemme break it down this way...</P> <P>4k hit at 60% mitigation = 10k base damage....a warrior with their buffs up will take about 3.3k damage (67% mitigation) during that time period (1500 more mitigation)...that allows them to survive almost 4 hits to our 3 on the initial pull....this is a HUGE advantage. This is not factoring in a much higher avoidance factor which means they get hit less.</P> <P>We get crap for tanking aa's. A 50% boost in our group wisdom buff is laughable...at master I its an increase of about 25 Wisdom...maybe an additional 200 to all your resists. 100% boost to HP gained from our one quick strike attack...lol thats a whole 110 more HP gained....100% increase from our self HP buff...yea a terrible 250 HP IF you have the master I version of the HP buff. 20 seconds group hate transfer....nice for getting aggro fast but very difficult to control how much aggro goes to you....not the best for snap aggro control....much better for trying to maintain aggro control. The end tanking aa is useful, but with a decent shield it only gives the paladin about 3.5% avoidance....still less then what warriors get by having parry abilities.</P> <P>With the posters comments above its obvious he hasn't tanked very much high end content either via raids or small groups (nizara for instance) I could do the tanking job before since I had fabled gear for a better mit/resistance boost and good HP...but a pure legendary guardian or zerker can hit the same instances and do a BETTER job then I can at taking the hits.</P> <P>As I stated we have been relegated to the squishy protection group now. The only useful raiding aa we get is for raising the mitigation of any non-fighter class by 720...thats about 10% mitigation for scouts, casters, and healers (with the exception of clerics). Our ability to group heal and pull group hate AWAY from these toons (coupled with a troub for hate reduction) gives insane DPS abilities to the 3 caster DPS you would have in the group. Ideally you would have a warlock and 2 wizards in this group for pure raw DPS, and a fury to raise group INT and group regen capabilities during their health for power drains.</P> <P>The problem with this formula is that we can't do any role well, but we can do some jobs in an OK manner. The best job in raids we will be able to do is healing now. Simply put, we'll be able to out heal any class save for possibly wardens. You can cure now too if you go down the suport aa line as well. With 2 direct heals, 1 ward, 1 group heal, and an insta zero power LoH for 6k when it crits....thats a lot of healing. We have recast reductions on our wards which will allow you to toss a ward every 7 seconds, cast a direct heal in about 1.5 seconds (that crits for 1.3k) and another one that will heal even more (end aa line) we have become the super healers. Keep in mind, you can have a base crit heal chance of around 65% if you go down the INT line. Coupled with a bard and enchanter that means you can crit heal 95% of the time.....insane.</P> <P>But we roled Paladins to TANK not heal....and sadly that is what we have become warrior healers...honestly what I always invisioned the templar line being. I rolled a paladin to tank not heal...but then that is the lot SOE has dealt us with the EOF aa's.</P> <P>There is not a single reason to bring a paladin to a raid, other then healing anymore. Dirges get insane EoF aa's which make them MUCH better rezzers then paladins. Every other fighter class can tank better then a paladin...so tanking is out. Pure healing power is what the Pally will excell at...thats about it now. And sadly this is due to the fact that non of the healer classes got any good healer aa's.</P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>EOF has made me feel much better with my class on quite a few things, sure, there are a few things i would still like looked at but we have much more options now to help us improve our tanking.  The Block option i am hoping will boost my avoidance with my draconic deflector nicely and the set gear looks like will improve our mitigation greatly.  The Mithanial Marr Blessings and Miracles will help us out coupled with our own spells.   In raids, I seem to have more health and resist or reduce my damage to AOE's better than any non aoe immune class and if i wish to can pull mobs off guildees when somebody spikes their hate too much.  I am still relearning what i can do with the eof mobs but the kos and ealier zones are easier for me now.</DIV>

[Kaleyen]

Hrmm...I wonder how well it will go over when I start putting in for healer plate drops <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Effie wrote:<BR> <HR> <DIV>I'm very displeased with how the Paladin is not a ture fighter in EQ2.  And this is made even worse with the EoF AA's  that gave us absolutly no tanking help. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why would they be.</DIV> <DIV>In EQ they were a cleric/fighter hybrid.</DIV> <DIV>Nothing ever written or said about EQ2 could have lead you to believe that they were <EM>true</EM> fighters. </DIV> <DIV>That's the role of Berserkers and Guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins (if they are played well) are awesome tanks for groups... probably the best choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God man go back to the guardian forums where you belong. Paladins originally only had 1 ward and an emergency heal (LoH) in eq2. The ward was very small and was used for gaining hate more then really protecting. The wards we have now are supposed to draw us aggro, but the reality they still are terrible in this regard since they have a 2 second casting time = lots of interupts. What paladins have asked for is a shorter casting time (say .5 seconds) and a much longer recast for balancing purposes.

[CycoDelic]

<P>On tanking.</P> <UL> <LI> We've only done a few raids with letting folks explore some and then the onset of the Thanksgiving holiday. So far I havent been called upon to MT anything in a raid enviorment since release but I have done some off tanking and had no issues there.</LI> <LI>For groups, I don't do any worse than I did before EoF. I have group tanked in MM, been when a guard was MT, a zerker was MT and a monk was MT (/gasp!). With the latest changes to up brawler mit and avoidance the monk truly did the best job. He was hit less, with my mit on him he was able to mitigate most damage well enough and truly needed the least amount of healing.</LI></UL> <P> </P> <P>Overall, I am not displeased with the changes at this time. If not tanking I can go offensive, still lend my mit, and group DPS 1000+ with the wrath line. I can also throw in spot heals where needed and help if things start to go poorly in that respect. I can still tank (and have) any group enviorment encounter and I am confident that I wont have many issues on raids based on what I have seen thus far. </P> <P>I would like to see wards made uninteruptable. Many arguments around not giving paladins temp mit etc as other tanks have is based on their ability to use wards and heals, but when they are constantly getting interupted it does make us less effective in the long run... but I suppose that is for another thread <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[MeridianR]

I haven't raided much since EoF, but prior to EoF I tanked everything except Matron and Chel'drak.  (Everything includes all 3 contested in KoS, and every mob in every instance)<div></div>

[Rarlin]

I'm having the time of my life with my Paladin atm...  Sorry to hear that so many are upset, but I've been having a blast playing my Paladin.You're right, we'll never be 'as good as' a Guardian for MIT, but a Guardian doesn't have our versatility either...  give and take I guess.So while I know this doesn't 'help the cause', I'm having a blast with my Paladin and think he's more fun to play now than he was 2 years ago!<div></div>

[Rast]

<P>I too am enjoying my Paladin.  I do not think there is nothing wrong with the class though, but it isn't anything that isn't minor tweaks.</P> <P>We do not need mit like a guard, but we do need insta cast wards/heals (that is what is supposed to be making up for our lack of mit/hps) and we need lower power costs (or more power, but lower costs would be better for regen purposes).  I don't want to tank like a Guard/Zerker, I want to tank like a Paladin using my divine abilities to improve my survivablity not be the reason I can't survive.</P> <P>We also need more situations where a Paladin tank would make more sense (resists vs mitigation for example).</P>

[Warj]

<DIV><FONT size=2> <P>Ok Mike lets see if this helps any .. I have a level 70 pally on a PVP server so I get the luck of fighting almost everything in the game. </P> <P>Labs.... have completely main tanked the entire zone</P> <P>Halls..,, have completely co-tanked entire zone with SK as main tank if one lost agro or died the other would pick up tanking</P> <P>DT........have completely co-tanked entire zone with SK again including Tarinax... except for Cruor at the time we left him alone.</P> <P>Lyceum... Have never really tanked this zone </P> <P>3 princes... have main tanked the knight prince everytime </P> <P>Hurricanus... Never tanked him only the droag adds always had better choice</P> <P>Chel'Drak.... Never tanked him always had better choice</P> <P>MO...... never tanked him always had better choice</P> <P>Before EOF a Paladin as a main tank was not a Great option but it was a option if you had a Guardian, Beserker, SK any of these would be a better option but a Paladin could step up if needed and be a raid tank. With lower agro and mit then most other classes it was a strain on healers and i i did get one shoted alot but the possiblity was there. </P> <P>Since release of EOF havent tanked much except for instances. With changes in resist and our low DPS the future for Pally is not looking good. From what i have seen lately our agro even with amends is getting harder and harder. Our lower mitigation is not on par with other tanks even with out heals... </P> <P>As far as a pvp tank a pally has never been great but up till EOF alteast I could hold my own in solo PVP we never could one shot anyone. But our resist gave us a fighting chance. Now you can foget solo PvP your rooted., snared and destroyed. As far as group PVP havent really tested it out much yet .</P> <P>As far as a Main Tank a Guardian, Beserker, Sk is a much better choice they have better mit, better agro, and better DPS all i ever hear is but you have heals... well if you cant kill something. guess what your mana runs out for heals and guess who dies... </P> <P>For the future of the paladin maybe on non-pvp you might have some kind of chance for a future as far as PvP being one of the handful of 70 level Pallys on my server my long hard road just got worse. </P> <P>Claude Bawlls</P> <P>Pally of Havoc Nagafen</P></FONT></DIV>

[Faelgalad]

<P>I don't know a single Paladin on Innovation Server that has tanked any T7 Zone. </P> <P>With T6 Paladins get swaped out for Guardians. Even Berserkers become uncommon as MT or OT. </P> <P>There are enough Guardians arround, that no one needs an Paladin. </P> <P>For Group play, everything is easiy, until T7 comes, with that, Guardians take over in Nizara, Nek3, Valdoon, Obelisk of Blight. </P> <P>With this, upcoming Paladins don't get the good stuff, as it goes to Berserker/Guardians. Comparing Equipment, the Paladins in our guild are weaker outfitted than the Guardians. Guardians get more chances for Nizara, Nek3, Valdoon...</P> <P>Maybe Paladins, long established don't have this problems. Better connected in their guild, with better equipment. I see the problems of our level 20-55 Paladins to get it up, as there are enough Guardians arround. With 400 chars, only 2 mediocre and one real active Paladins (me) in our guild beyond level 50. And I'am more honored by my organisation talents, then my uber tanking abilities. </P> <P> </P> <P>For Raids, Paladins have no Utility in comparision to Coercer, Illu, Troub or Dirge. All 4 of them bring better things in. </P> <P>Battle Rez is painfull, range is to low, I can't see the reason for this disadvantage. Necro and Dirge don't have it, why Paladins?</P> <P>(This is no rhetoric questions, could some official give the reasons)</P> <P><BR>Healing is irrelevant in a Tank role, to much interrupt and to small heal in comparision to our lower mitigation and lifepoints. </P> <P> </P> <P>Feeling: <BR>Paladin is a dying class. </P><p>Message Edited by Lynassihr on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:12 PM</span>

[Caphi2]

I've tanked every KOS zone start to finish including DT, Tarinax, Warden in HOS, etc.  The only KOS mob that really gives me an inordinate amount of crap is actually Vilucidae when he hits that fourth stance. I'm not sure why it is, but that's my bane. I've died at 3% several times on that mob.  I've attempted to tank Cheldrak but we're not very well equipped to do that one becuase of the need to avoid hits while getting into position. Divine Aura blocks virtually nothing from Cheldrak before debuffs. This is what makes him pretty much a guardian only mob (maybe brawlers after the combat change). Although, after EOF with full raid buffs and bolster I'm getting high enough on hp's that the 50% mark might be high enough to block his 9k hits or I could use a Mith Marr miracle I suppose.I'm fairly happy with the block skill we got in EOF and I don't think we're TOO far out of line but I think we need a bit of a tweak in the way of "tanking utility". Removing the 50% hp restriction on Divine Aura would probably do it.<div></div>

[Mad Marty]

<DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Effie wrote:<BR> <DIV>Why would they be.</DIV> <DIV>In EQ they were a cleric/fighter hybrid.</DIV> <DIV>Nothing ever written or said about EQ2 could have lead you to believe that they were <EM>true</EM> fighters. </DIV> <DIV>That's the role of Berserkers and Guardians. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Thats just wrong.  SOE wrote that all fighter classes would be able to tank - they would just use different skills to achieve it.<BR></DIV></DIV>

[Rast]

I don't know about anyone else, but I intend to be a tank and intend to find someway to be one.  I didn't roll a pally to be a healer, I rolled to be a sword wielding, plate wearing, divine calling tank.

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lynassihr wrote:<BR> <P>For Group play, everything is easiy, until T7 comes, with that, Guardians take over in Nizara, Nek3, Valdoon, Obelisk of Blight. </P> <P>With this, upcoming Paladins don't get the good stuff, as it goes to Berserker/Guardians. Comparing Equipment, the Paladins in our guild are weaker outfitted than the Guardians. Guardians get more chances for Nizara, Nek3, Valdoon...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't know why this would be the case... Even moderately equipped paladins should be able to tank in Valdoon and Blight, given 2 healers. I know I've done both with just 1 healer and cleared the zone. To be fair, I haven't been back to Nek3 or Nizara yet since the expansion to see how different those are, but I did tank for those before EoF as well.</P> <P>~Hawke<BR></P>

[MeridianR]

Yeah Nizara was fun when it first came out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I still say I was the first Paladin Worldwide to tank that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....but who knows.<div></div>

[Arraza]

<DIV>The EoF instance zones are very doable as a paladin, OOB i have done with only 1 healer, you just have to be careful with your pulls and ward on pulls and when ever you can.  I did see it much more easily done with an SK in our guild, the healer did not have to work as hard, especially with death march.  Crypts can be done until the boss with one healer, didn't make it past him with one healer but it might be possible, but with 2 its very easy.  Catacombs can be done with 1 healer, though two makes it easier if you get repops.  The only zone i wouldn't do with less than two healers is CMM, but I doubt any tank can do that with 1 healer at this point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Majorminor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lynassihr wrote:<BR> <P>For Group play, everything is easiy, until T7 comes, with that, Guardians take over in Nizara, Nek3, Valdoon, Obelisk of Blight. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Unfortunatly for Many Pallies, it's this Mind set that hurts us.  Others don't view us as a Good tank, /shrug there loss really.   Over the last couple days, I have seen in the 70chat, MMCastle group looking for Tank.  Sent tell and got the They'll tear you up, we need a Guard.  I told them, there loss.  Had some friends log in and we headed in, and proceded to fight, watch that other group die, and fight and fight /shrug.  It's that whole "Pallies" can't tank mindset, I don't argue with that, I just prove our worth buy the way I tank and do my job.</P> <P> </P>

[Caetrel]

Plenty of us have tanked most of the game's raid content pre EoF.  Only exceptions Cheldrak/ Matron, but who knows.   While we might be mathematically inferior in every way, it can/ has/ will be done. If you can't tank Nizara, MM, any of these new heroic instances it isn't because you are a paladin. Someone in Dev land must think we're uber because we have seen no love since LU13.  If you love the class, keep playing and suck it up, buttercup.   <div></div>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>Why are people defending "it can be done". </DIV> <DIV>I don't argue that it can't be done. </DIV> <DIV>I'am a Paladin and I see the limitations we have. </DIV> <DIV>I see what worse equipped Guardians have advantages over me. </DIV> <DIV>That is not attitude, but analysis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact on my server (Innovation). Enough Guardians arround that people have the choice to take a Guardian before an Paladin. </DIV> <DIV>Why do they do this?</DIV> <DIV>Guardian is better outfitted, mathematicaly and from the structual skills. </DIV> <DIV>So, when there are 10 customers, and 18 cars, of which 9 drive 120 km/h and 9 drive 110 km/h, what will the customers do?</DIV> <DIV>It's not that 10 Raids are looking for an MT, and only 4 Guardians avaible. Quite contrary. And you should know the rules of the market, the best product sells. </DIV> <DIV>The Paladin product has no real structual advantage over the Guardian product. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The question is not, can a zone done with a Paladin. With enough upgrades, the right combination of group members and player skill, many things can be achived. </DIV> <DIV>The question is, are their structural disadvantages and how is these perceived by other players. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Question 1, Paladins have structural disadvantegs</DIV> <DIV>Question 2, people perceive this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example, many classes have very powerful Special Skills, up to class defning skills. </DIV> <DIV>Our Level 52, Sigil of Heroism, this is the one I call usefull. </DIV> <DIV>Our Level 55, Consecrate, we are Powerburner, and this Skill burns it like cinder. For Palace of Poets: The Return, a wonderfull skill. In T7, it is nearly neglectable. </DIV> <DIV>Our Level 58 Special Skill, Divine Favor is one of the most useless skills I have ever seen. </DIV> <DIV>I make better use for Bayle's Hand, the Funspell (use it as a way guiding light).  </DIV> <DIV>A Raidtank that stiffles himself for 12 sec. and puts him at the end of the Aggro chain. Sorry, I can't think of this as useful. Even in Grouplay. </DIV> <DIV>Our Level 65, Castigate has a much to long reuse timer for an selfcure. Would it wash away all things on us, or could cure those things not cureable by priests...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are missing the magic moment. The Skill that people look forward, an rare ability, something that shines. This changes peoples perception of the Paladin. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[FatedByChan]

<P>Maybe it's just me, amends always seemed to keep me way safer than any guardian ever could.</P> <P>So when exactly does everything for a paly start going to hell? I just made mine, got it to 30, and I'm loving it. They are so resourceful, having a little bit of everything is nice.</P>

[Seomon]

<DIV>Our guild's main tank for raids is a Guardian. He's the best geared. There's a few other warriors in the guild, but our second tank is a Paladin, since he's the second best equipped. He's tanked everything the guardian's tanked, and is the second tank used on tarinax. We haven't beaten Tarinax yet, but we're getting a lot closer. If I had as good of gear as the other Paladin, I'd be tanking too, but I don't, so it's his job for now (I know you're reading this Brodek, I'm coming for you!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I know that a Guardian is a better choice for a MT than a Paladin. But only if both are evenly equipped. A guardian with less mit than a paladin will get hit for more than the paladin, and will be harder to keep alive. Period. So if a guild has progressed their way through T7 raid zones with a Paladin MT and the Paladin getting geared up to being the MT, guess who's going to be tanking everything? It happens in a lot of guilds. And I don't have the best gear, not even close to anything close to maybe having the best gear, but I've tanked a couple Eyes in DT. Now, is it me that was doing good, or was it the healers that was keeping me up?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's a lot of different things that go into a paladin tanking besides just us and our skills. There's healers, group setup, mindset of the raid, dps for the raid, ect. If people in the raid are [Removed for Content] that a paladin is tanking instead of the guardian, they're really not going to be as focused on killing and healing as they should, and the raid will suffer. So when you talk about a Paladin tanking, you need to consider a lot of other factors than what's here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: On the group topic... there is nothing out there that we can't tank with Xegonite that's built for one group (I personally don't have xegonite anymore, but I did). I do all the instances with 1 healer, and I tried MM Castle with one healer, but I think I should go back with 2. Just build your group based off what you need. If your instance group needs 2 healers because you don't have nice equipment, get 2 healers. Noone's going to laugh at you, you'll still kill all the mobs. And if a group doesn't want you because you're not a guardian, oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]in well, that's their choice. Start your own group, that what I usually do.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Seomon on <span class=date_text>11-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:37 PM</span>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lynassihr wrote:<BR> <DIV>Why are people defending "it can be done". </DIV> <DIV>I don't argue that it can't be done. </DIV> <DIV>I'am a Paladin and I see the limitations we have. </DIV> <DIV>I see what worse equipped Guardians have advantages over me. </DIV> <DIV>That is not attitude, but analysis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact on my server (Innovation). Enough Guardians arround that people have the choice to take a Guardian before an Paladin. </DIV> <DIV>Why do they do this?</DIV> <DIV>Guardian is better outfitted, mathematicaly and from the structual skills. </DIV> <DIV>So, when there are 10 customers, and 18 cars, of which 9 drive 120 km/h and 9 drive 110 km/h, what will the customers do?</DIV> <DIV>It's not that 10 Raids are looking for an MT, and only 4 Guardians avaible. Quite contrary. And you should know the rules of the market, the best product sells. </DIV> <DIV>The Paladin product has no real structual advantage over the Guardian product. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The question is not, can a zone done with a Paladin. With enough upgrades, the right combination of group members and player skill, many things can be achived. </DIV> <DIV>The question is, are their structural disadvantages and how is these perceived by other players. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Question 1, Paladins have structural disadvantegs</DIV> <DIV>Question 2, people perceive this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example, many classes have very powerful Special Skills, up to class defning skills. </DIV> <DIV>Our Level 52, Sigil of Heroism, this is the one I call usefull. </DIV> <DIV>Our Level 55, Consecrate, we are Powerburner, and this Skill burns it like cinder. For Palace of Poets: The Return, a wonderfull skill. In T7, it is nearly neglectable. </DIV> <DIV>Our Level 58 Special Skill, Divine Favor is one of the most useless skills I have ever seen. </DIV> <DIV>I make better use for Bayle's Hand, the Funspell (use it as a way guiding light).  </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>A Raidtank that stiffles himself for 12 sec. and puts him at the end of the Aggro chain. Sorry, I can't think of this as useful. Even in Grouplay.</FONT> <FONT color=#00ccff>Dude that spell changed 4 LU ago...it still stiffles but nolonger causes you to lose aggro. However, with my spell at Master I....It still only saved me once outta the 14 million times I tried to use it. Yes the spell is broke but at least get the spell result correct pls.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Our Level 65, Castigate has a much to long reuse timer for an selfcure. Would it wash away all things on us, or could cure those things not cureable by priests... </FONT><FONT color=#00ccff>This spell was not designed to be used as a cure so much as group aggro generation. You do about 500 damage (about 800 on crits) for any mob across any encounter you have engaged per dot that is cured off of you by this spell. This is a great tool for keeping aggro on you against multi-encounter fights.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are missing the magic moment. The Skill that people look forward, an rare ability, something that shines. This changes peoples perception of the Paladin. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We have that skill now, that skill is the ability to direct heal better then most healers now in game.....if you go that route. BUT...I didn't want to play a healing class.

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FatedByChance wrote:<BR> <P>Maybe it's just me, amends always seemed to keep me way safer than any guardian ever could.</P> <P>So when exactly does everything for a paly start going to hell? I just made mine, got it to 30, and I'm loving it. They are so resourceful, having a little bit of everything is nice.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There's a huge difference between a level 30 paladin and a lvl 70 one when it comes to fights. You don't see the crazy issues that high lvl paladins get when tanking....specifically stuns. Its stuns that kill us when in Castle Mistmore or Nazara....These instances have incurable dots that prevent us from casting our taunts. Keep in mind amends isn't an aggro lock...you still need to be able to taunt to keep aggro. If you can't taunt your group will die just as easily as before....there is no difference. Warriors and brawlers have the ability to use taunts WHILE stunned...a huge advantage when taking on these zones. I can't hit Castle mistmore without 2 healers and an enchanter, I have seen several guardians do it pretty easily with just 2 healers and 3 dpsers.

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seomon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Our guild's main tank for raids is a Guardian. He's the best geared. There's a few other warriors in the guild, but our second tank is a Paladin, since he's the second best equipped. He's tanked everything the guardian's tanked, and is the second tank used on tarinax. We haven't beaten Tarinax yet, but we're getting a lot closer. If I had as good of gear as the other Paladin, I'd be tanking too, but I don't, so it's his job for now (I know you're reading this Brodek, I'm coming for you!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I know that a Guardian is a better choice for a MT than a Paladin. But only if both are evenly equipped. A guardian with less mit than a paladin will get hit for more than the paladin, and will be harder to keep alive. Period. So if a guild has progressed their way through T7 raid zones with a Paladin MT and the Paladin getting geared up to being the MT, guess who's going to be tanking everything? It happens in a lot of guilds. And I don't have the best gear, not even close to anything close to maybe having the best gear, but I've tanked a couple Eyes in DT. Now, is it me that was doing good, or was it the healers that was keeping me up?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's a lot of different things that go into a paladin tanking besides just us and our skills. There's healers, group setup, mindset of the raid, dps for the raid, ect. If people in the raid are [Removed for Content] that a paladin is tanking instead of the guardian, they're really not going to be as focused on killing and healing as they should, and the raid will suffer. So when you talk about a Paladin tanking, you need to consider a lot of other factors than what's here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: On the group topic... there is nothing out there that we can't tank with Xegonite that's built for one group (I personally don't have xegonite anymore, but I did). I do all the instances with 1 healer, and I tried MM Castle with one healer, but I think I should go back with 2. Just build your group based off what you need. If your instance group needs 2 healers because you don't have nice equipment, get 2 healers. Noone's going to laugh at you, you'll still kill all the mobs. And if a group doesn't want you because you're not a guardian, oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]in well, that's their choice. Start your own group, that what I usually do.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Seomon on <SPAN class=date_text>11-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:37 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you are measuring a person's ability by base mit alone, you need to learn more about what guardians bring to the table. They have group and self mit buffs that AREN'T normally visable for about 700 to 1k additional mit temporarily BESIDES aa choices they have over paladins. They can keep these mit buffs up for about 75% of all fights if timed correctly. Mit wasn't as huge a deal PRIOR to EoF due to mit caps....heck I reached the mit caps and was use for MT and OT purposes....but now on the HIGH end content...guardians and zerkers OWN....period.

[Ranja]

<blockquote><hr>MikeMatsumoto wrote:<div></div>bentgate, i will ignore your message.Turb0t you right. Maybe Im asking for SOE improve something that dont need.So, again i will only ask: - Any pally already tank ALL nameds in t7? Like tarinax?Lets see if is possible or no. :p<a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=158297"></a><div></div><hr></blockquote>Ignore me all you want but that does not change the fact that you play a class that you do not like. And are begging for SOE to change it when they will not. Everything I said was true, ignore it at your own disappointment with the pally class. I am sure it is just better to try and beg and plead with SOE to change the class into another guardian rather than play it for what SOE has made it.

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bentgate wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MikeMatsumoto wrote:<BR> <BR>bentgate, i will ignore your message.<BR><BR>Turb0t you right. Maybe Im asking for SOE improve something that dont need.<BR><BR>So, again i will only ask:<BR><BR><BR> - Any pally already tank ALL nameds in t7? Like tarinax?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Lets see if is possible or no. :p<BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=158297" target=_blank></A> <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ignore me all you want but that does not change the fact that you play a class that you do not like. And are begging for SOE to change it when they will not. Everything I said was true, ignore it at your own disappointment with the pally class. I am sure it is just better to try and beg and plead with SOE to change the class into another guardian rather than play it for what SOE has made it. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know you're absolutely right....rangers and assassins should no longer be the top melee dps classes, that role should go to the berserkers and swashbucklers since they have cooler names........its already begun and if you can't handle the fact that ranger DPS sucks now....maybe you should role another class......</P> <P>No that is not the answer. Go post on your forums where you belong NOT in the paladin forums. Paladins are only asking for a ROLE in raids...the catch all class nolonger fits since we really aren't a dps class. Any tank can tank well in easy zones, what we are talking about is tanking in HARD zones. Obivously, you have a broad experience tanking these zones or tanking raid zones for an adequate experience.</P> <P>LU 13 made us the aggro kings at holding aggro against group encounters. No other class save for a zerker in offensive stance was better at aggro contol versus multimob encounters. This has severely changed now....with the upgrades to guardians, zerkers, Sk's, and even brawlers. We are relegated to the role of a resist tank...yet every other class can up there mitigation to spell damage easily so this point is even mute now.</P> <P>People compare us as a "hybrid" class since that was what the paladin was in EQ1....EQ2 is totally different from eq1...just ask any necromancer. Paladins for the 14th million time were supposed to be able to use wards to draw aggro to themselves with the advent of EQ2....but this is made impossible now that we are given such strong healing tools now. I have been a strong advocate for taking some of our healing abilities away and giving us more tanking abilities........or strongly increasing our DPS capabilities since they frankly suck.</P> <P>Again, go back to the ranger forums where you belong. Our class is broke for tanking challenging stuff, everyone else knows this who HAS tanked these areas before.... </P>

[Seomon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR>If you are measuring a person's ability by base mit alone, you need to learn more about what guardians bring to the table. They have group and self mit buffs that AREN'T normally visable for about 700 to 1k additional mit temporarily BESIDES aa choices they have over paladins. They can keep these mit buffs up for about 75% of all fights if timed correctly. Mit wasn't as huge a deal PRIOR to EoF due to mit caps....heck I reached the mit caps and was use for MT and OT purposes....but now on the HIGH end content...guardians and zerkers OWN....period.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm measuring base mit with base mit, and the fact that yes, they can buff their mit, but I can heal. I can heal enough that on pull, 2600 damage is gone never to be seen, and then heal during the fight. Yes, interrupts and stuns and such suck, and making our heals uninterruptable/able to be cast while stunned would be the only thing I think our class needs, but I think we're still able to tank anything a guardian can almost as well as a guardian can if both are equally equipped and skilled.<BR>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seomon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR>If you are measuring a person's ability by base mit alone, you need to learn more about what guardians bring to the table. They have group and self mit buffs that AREN'T normally visable for about 700 to 1k additional mit temporarily BESIDES aa choices they have over paladins. They can keep these mit buffs up for about 75% of all fights if timed correctly. Mit wasn't as huge a deal PRIOR to EoF due to mit caps....heck I reached the mit caps and was use for MT and OT purposes....but now on the HIGH end content...guardians and zerkers OWN....period.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm measuring base mit with base mit, and the fact that yes, they can buff their mit, but I can heal. I can heal enough that on pull, 2600 damage is gone never to be seen, and then heal during the fight. Yes, interrupts and stuns and such suck, and making our heals uninterruptable/able to be cast while stunned would be the only thing I think our class needs, but I think we're still able to tank anything a guardian can almost as well as a guardian can if both are equally equipped and skilled.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're job as a MT is aggro control and absorbing blows. If you are trying to ward when you are MTing for a raid you are WRONG. That is a healer job, you are losing valuable melee dps aggro by attacking versus trying to get off a ward that is likely to be interupted. Healing when MTing for a raid is a non factor since any raiding paladin who has MT'd hard zones will tell you they don't use their heals much if at all. So the difference you were stating about your heals being a factor is totally pointless. The self and group mit buffs are a warrior trait...but to further the Guardian logic line they have tower of stone which allows them to absorb 3 hits outright onto their shields...critical for initial pulls anymore for giving the healers and debuffers a chance to bring the DPS of the raid mob under more direct control. Paladins only have divine aura...which is still broke as far as I know.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I can heal enough that on pull, 2600 damage is gone never to be seen</FONT></P> <P>A guardian or warrior will add another 1k mit which for a well geared guardian/zerker equals another 3% mitigation. IF, and this is a big IF you have devotion at master I you get a ward for initial pull of an additional 1400 HP on a 10k initial base damage shot by mobs that would equal the difference on the initial 4 blows taken by a paladin. After that wards cast by you are POINTLESS for the most part due to the long casting timers. You keep casting self wards and you will lose aggro quicker then you can say RAID WIPE. What a lot of paladins have been asking for are either uninteruptable ward casts or drastically reduced ward cast timers to say like .5 seconds to counter this. But like I said, at this time, Paladin wards cast by paladins are useless if you are the one MTing...at least IMO. I auto melee for around 800 damage X2 as MT in the same time period when I MT...critical for aggro control.</P>

[Seomon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seomon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR>If you are measuring a person's ability by base mit alone, you need to learn more about what guardians bring to the table. They have group and self mit buffs that AREN'T normally visable for about 700 to 1k additional mit temporarily BESIDES aa choices they have over paladins. They can keep these mit buffs up for about 75% of all fights if timed correctly. Mit wasn't as huge a deal PRIOR to EoF due to mit caps....heck I reached the mit caps and was use for MT and OT purposes....but now on the HIGH end content...guardians and zerkers OWN....period.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm measuring base mit with base mit, and the fact that yes, they can buff their mit, but I can heal. I can heal enough that on pull, 2600 damage is gone never to be seen, and then heal during the fight. Yes, interrupts and stuns and such suck, and making our heals uninterruptable/able to be cast while stunned would be the only thing I think our class needs, but I think we're still able to tank anything a guardian can almost as well as a guardian can if both are equally equipped and skilled.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're job as a MT is aggro control and absorbing blows. If you are trying to ward when you are MTing for a raid you are WRONG. That is a healer job, you are losing valuable melee dps aggro by attacking versus trying to get off a ward that is likely to be interupted. Healing when MTing for a raid is a non factor since any raiding paladin who has MT'd hard zones will tell you they don't use their heals much if at all. So the difference you were stating about your heals being a factor is totally pointless. The self and group mit buffs are a warrior trait...but to further the Guardian logic line they have tower of stone which allows them to absorb 3 hits outright onto their shields...critical for initial pulls anymore for giving the healers and debuffers a chance to bring the DPS of the raid mob under more direct control. Paladins only have divine aura...which is still broke as far as I know.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I can heal enough that on pull, 2600 damage is gone never to be seen</FONT></P> <P>A guardian or warrior will add another 1k mit which for a well geared guardian/zerker equals another 3% mitigation. IF, and this is a big IF you have devotion at master I you get a ward for initial pull of an additional 1400 HP on a 10k initial base damage shot by mobs that would equal the difference on the initial 4 blows taken by a paladin. After that wards cast by you are POINTLESS for the most part due to the long casting timers. You keep casting self wards and you will lose aggro quicker then you can say RAID WIPE. What a lot of paladins have been asking for are either uninteruptable ward casts or drastically reduced ward cast timers to say like .5 seconds to counter this. But like I said, at this time, Paladin wards cast by paladins are useless if you are the one MTing...at least IMO. I auto melee for around 800 damage X2 as MT in the same time period when I MT...critical for aggro control.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>All I hear is wha wha wha. Just tank and stop crying. You might tank different than me, w/e, I use my ward, and I use my heals. Why are they there if I'm not going to use them. It would be nice if the casting timer was reduced on the ward, sure, but meh, I generally use my heal more now since I think it's more bang for the buck and the casting timer is a lot lower. Use what you have and don't worry about what someone else has. If the raid is successful, who cares who the MT was. Yes, you can min/max and get better results with using a Guarding. I'm not trying to say that's wrong. I'm just saying that we can tank, and we can do it just fine.

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seomon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seomon wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR>If you are measuring a person's ability by base mit alone, you need to learn more about what guardians bring to the table. They have group and self mit buffs that AREN'T normally visable for about 700 to 1k additional mit temporarily BESIDES aa choices they have over paladins. They can keep these mit buffs up for about 75% of all fights if timed correctly. Mit wasn't as huge a deal PRIOR to EoF due to mit caps....heck I reached the mit caps and was use for MT and OT purposes....but now on the HIGH end content...guardians and zerkers OWN....period.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm measuring base mit with base mit, and the fact that yes, they can buff their mit, but I can heal. I can heal enough that on pull, 2600 damage is gone never to be seen, and then heal during the fight. Yes, interrupts and stuns and such suck, and making our heals uninterruptable/able to be cast while stunned would be the only thing I think our class needs, but I think we're still able to tank anything a guardian can almost as well as a guardian can if both are equally equipped and skilled.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You're job as a MT is aggro control and absorbing blows. If you are trying to ward when you are MTing for a raid you are WRONG. That is a healer job, you are losing valuable melee dps aggro by attacking versus trying to get off a ward that is likely to be interupted. Healing when MTing for a raid is a non factor since any raiding paladin who has MT'd hard zones will tell you they don't use their heals much if at all. So the difference you were stating about your heals being a factor is totally pointless. The self and group mit buffs are a warrior trait...but to further the Guardian logic line they have tower of stone which allows them to absorb 3 hits outright onto their shields...critical for initial pulls anymore for giving the healers and debuffers a chance to bring the DPS of the raid mob under more direct control. Paladins only have divine aura...which is still broke as far as I know.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I can heal enough that on pull, 2600 damage is gone never to be seen</FONT></P> <P>A guardian or warrior will add another 1k mit which for a well geared guardian/zerker equals another 3% mitigation. IF, and this is a big IF you have devotion at master I you get a ward for initial pull of an additional 1400 HP on a 10k initial base damage shot by mobs that would equal the difference on the initial 4 blows taken by a paladin. After that wards cast by you are POINTLESS for the most part due to the long casting timers. You keep casting self wards and you will lose aggro quicker then you can say RAID WIPE. What a lot of paladins have been asking for are either uninteruptable ward casts or drastically reduced ward cast timers to say like .5 seconds to counter this. But like I said, at this time, Paladin wards cast by paladins are useless if you are the one MTing...at least IMO. I auto melee for around 800 damage X2 as MT in the same time period when I MT...critical for aggro control.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>All I hear is wha wha wha. Just tank and stop crying. You might tank different than me, w/e, I use my ward, and I use my heals. Why are they there if I'm not going to use them. It would be nice if the casting timer was reduced on the ward, sure, but meh, I generally use my heal more now since I think it's more bang for the buck and the casting timer is a lot lower. Use what you have and don't worry about what someone else has. If the raid is successful, who cares who the MT was. Yes, you can min/max and get better results with using a Guarding. I'm not trying to say that's wrong. I'm just saying that we can tank, and we can do it just fine.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am sorry, I am stating facts not amusing figures. If you are tanking the way you are and still holding aggro, that means you have craptastic DPS. I am talking about holding aggro for a 14 to 18k DPS raid, not some craptastic 8k DPS raid you are tanking. Yes in that situation even a Swashbuckler could tank and hold aggro if buffed properly. What you mistake as whining is actual constructive help I am trying to give to someone else who obviously hasn't tanked that much. Check your gear, then check mine and come talk to me after that. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I got gutz enough to link my character info for all to see do you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[CycoDelic]

<P>But do you have the guts to stop saying "craptastic"? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I'll make you a deal, you just drop using the word, and i'll mentally insert it before each noun in your sentences <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Fatuus]

I could but its a nice way of saying a negative comment. Unfortunately Mods have banned people for saying "let me break it down into kindergarden talk for ya" ....haha talk to takuan on the najena forums sometime lol

[Ranja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Fatuus wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> bentgate wrote: <blockquote> <hr> MikeMatsumoto wrote: <div></div>bentgate, i will ignore your message.Turb0t you right. Maybe Im asking for SOE improve something that dont need.So, again i will only ask: - Any pally already tank ALL nameds in t7? Like tarinax?Lets see if is possible or no. :p<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=158297" target="_blank"></a> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Ignore me all you want but that does not change the fact that you play a class that you do not like. And are begging for SOE to change it when they will not. Everything I said was true, ignore it at your own disappointment with the pally class. I am sure it is just better to try and beg and plead with SOE to change the class into another guardian rather than play it for what SOE has made it. <hr> </blockquote> <p>You know you're absolutely right....rangers and assassins should no longer be the top melee dps classes, that role should go to the berserkers and swashbucklers since they have cooler names........its already begun and if you can't handle the fact that ranger DPS sucks now....maybe you should role another class......</p> <p>No that is not the answer. Go post on your forums where you belong NOT in the paladin forums. Paladins are only asking for a ROLE in raids...the catch all class nolonger fits since we really aren't a dps class. Any tank can tank well in easy zones, what we are talking about is tanking in HARD zones. Obivously, you have a broad experience tanking these zones or tanking raid zones for an adequate experience.</p> <p>LU 13 made us the aggro kings at holding aggro against group encounters. No other class save for a zerker in offensive stance was better at aggro contol versus multimob encounters. This has severely changed now....with the upgrades to guardians, zerkers, Sk's, and even brawlers. We are relegated to the role of a resist tank...yet every other class can up there mitigation to spell damage easily so this point is even mute now.</p> <p>People compare us as a "hybrid" class since that was what the paladin was in EQ1....EQ2 is totally different from eq1...just ask any necromancer. Paladins for the 14th million time were supposed to be able to use wards to draw aggro to themselves with the advent of EQ2....but this is made impossible now that we are given such strong healing tools now. I have been a strong advocate for taking some of our healing abilities away and giving us more tanking abilities........or strongly increasing our DPS capabilities since they frankly suck.</p> <p>Again, go back to the ranger forums where you belong. Our class is broke for tanking challenging stuff, everyone else knows this who HAS tanked these areas before.... </p><hr></blockquote>You are right rangers are sub par DPS but I like my ranger so I play him anyway. There is nothing wrong with asking for things about your class - hey we all do. My guild raids T7 consistently and has DT access. We use pallies all the time - sometimes up to 3 or 4 if they all show up on time. I play aranger b/c I like a ranger. Play a pallie because you like the pallie. If you want to be a MT in this game, then switch to a guardian or zerker it is that simple. You are only going to get frustrated trying to change the pally class to something it is not.  If I wanted to be top DPS I would switch to assassin (and you are right a swashie/brigand as well). But I enjoy the ranger class so I play it anyways.</div>

[Kaleyen]

Why would a raid bring 3-4 paladins by choice?  Sure if nobody else is around when raid time form up starts I can see it.... <div></div>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bentgate wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bentgate wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MikeMatsumoto wrote:<BR> <BR>bentgate, i will ignore your message.<BR><BR>Turb0t you right. Maybe Im asking for SOE improve something that dont need.<BR><BR>So, again i will only ask:<BR><BR><BR> - Any pally already tank ALL nameds in t7? Like tarinax?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Lets see if is possible or no. :p<BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=158297" target=_blank></A> <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ignore me all you want but that does not change the fact that you play a class that you do not like. And are begging for SOE to change it when they will not. Everything I said was true, ignore it at your own disappointment with the pally class. I am sure it is just better to try and beg and plead with SOE to change the class into another guardian rather than play it for what SOE has made it.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know you're absolutely right....rangers and assassins should no longer be the top melee dps classes, that role should go to the berserkers and swashbucklers since they have cooler names........its already begun and if you can't handle the fact that ranger DPS sucks now....maybe you should role another class......</P> <P>No that is not the answer. Go post on your forums where you belong NOT in the paladin forums. Paladins are only asking for a ROLE in raids...the catch all class nolonger fits since we really aren't a dps class. Any tank can tank well in easy zones, what we are talking about is tanking in HARD zones. Obivously, you have a broad experience tanking these zones or tanking raid zones for an adequate experience.</P> <P>LU 13 made us the aggro kings at holding aggro against group encounters. No other class save for a zerker in offensive stance was better at aggro contol versus multimob encounters. This has severely changed now....with the upgrades to guardians, zerkers, Sk's, and even brawlers. We are relegated to the role of a resist tank...yet every other class can up there mitigation to spell damage easily so this point is even mute now.</P> <P>People compare us as a "hybrid" class since that was what the paladin was in EQ1....EQ2 is totally different from eq1...just ask any necromancer. Paladins for the 14th million time were supposed to be able to use wards to draw aggro to themselves with the advent of EQ2....but this is made impossible now that we are given such strong healing tools now. I have been a strong advocate for taking some of our healing abilities away and giving us more tanking abilities........or strongly increasing our DPS capabilities since they frankly suck.</P> <P>Again, go back to the ranger forums where you belong. Our class is broke for tanking challenging stuff, everyone else knows this who HAS tanked these areas before.... </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You are right rangers are sub par DPS but I like my ranger so I play him anyway. There is nothing wrong with asking for things about your class - hey we all do. <FONT color=#ff0000>My guild raids T7 consistently and has DT access</FONT>. <FONT color=#00ccff>You want a cookie?</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>We use pallies all the time - sometimes up to 3 or 4 if they all show up on time.</FONT> <FONT color=#0099ff>Thats just dumb, makes as much sense as raiding with 5 templar and 2 mystics...just because you have 7 healers doesn't mean they will do well together. Paladins are the lowest melee dps class and their wards don't stack with other paladin wards (only 1 ward can be on a target at a time, the others get overwritten). Therefore the useful healing abilitty paladins sometimes can do becomes mute. </FONT>I play aranger b/c I like a ranger. Play a pallie because you like the pallie. If you want to be a MT in this game, then switch to a guardian or zerker it is that simple. You are only going to get frustrated trying to change the pally class to something it is not.  If I wanted to be top DPS I would switch to assassin (and you are right a swashie/brigand as well). But I enjoy the ranger class so I play it anyways.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am not trying to be a MT, what I am asking for, as were other high end paladin tanks who TANK hard zones and instances (both group and raid) to be given the tools to tank AS WELL as guardians and zerkers. Right now we DON'T have the tools and abilities to tank as well as them. Every class tanks differently and has their own advantages and disadvantages. Brawlers rely on DPS and avoidance to tank, Berserkers rely on DPS and getting hit to tank, Guardians rely on damage absorbtion and getting hit to tank, SK's rely on DPS output and AOE damage to tank, what do paladins get? We get single and group hate transfer for long or limited time periods. The problem is now our aggro gaining abilities (since we have the lowest DPS) is less then any other fighter class since we MUST rely on someone else for aggro not on our own abilities.</P> <P>With the advance of LU 13 we had a role for tanking things in instances and raids. Not every raid or instance...but there was a purpose given to our class. Now, with the advent of EoF the only thing we are very good at is sadly NOT tanking but HEALING. I rolled a fighter class to tank not to heal. Thats the difference. If they want us to use our healing abilities for tanking they need to make it so we can do this like we USED to be able to do Prior to LU 13. As it stands now they are unreliable at best for tanking.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Fatuus on <span class=date_text>11-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:22 AM</span>

[Gynx20]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote:<BR>Why would a raid bring 3-4 paladins by choice?  Sure if nobody else is around when raid time form up starts I can see it....<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The good news is Liluk we will never have to worry about that on Venekor as the two of us make up 50% of the t7 pali's</P> <P> </P> <P>Several things have caught my attention in these post so going to just add my input.</P> <P> </P> <P>Up until about 2 weeks ago I was ready to bag my pali for a zerker. But several things have changed that. Number one being gear, I was VERY gimped in gear and from my stand point still am. But it has gotten much better. And in turn I have seen my ability to tank go way up.</P> <P>Second is AA. When I first looked at our AA in EoF I was not that happy. But after getting several skill up's from the new lines I have a different look on things. It is not our tanking ability that made us stand out, it is our ability to pinch tank and assist the healers with keeping the MT alive as well as keeping the agro off the DPS.</P> <P>Now don't get me wrong I would love to be the MT but in the mean time while I continue to get better gear and more AA's I am just as happy to help the group/raid get what needs to be done.</P> <P>Just a side note from playing on a PvP server, Palis make awesome PvP tanks. Other night was myself a warden and a ranger, we were able to successfully beat a full group of 70's. And not just once but 3 times.</P> <P>Just my thoughts.</P>

[Majorminor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>you are losing valuable melee dps aggro by attacking versus trying to get off a ward that is likely to be interupted. Healing when MTing for a raid is a non factor since any raiding paladin who has MT'd hard zones will tell you they don't use their heals much if at all.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>While I don't think spamming or trying to spam heals/wards while MT is a really good idea.</P> <P>As far as Hate generation is concerned 1 point of taunt = 1 point of dps = 1 point of heal, or at least that was the case.</P> <P>So you get Ward off, that 1.2k ward generates 1.2k Hate,  plus whatever DPS your doing, sure you lose an attack while casting, but it's off set by the aggro from the ward /shrug.  I don't think spamming a ward/heal/groupheal when ever there up is a good idea, If you can get it off, which is the key, it really doesn't hurt aggro control all that much, from what I see anyway /shrug.</P>

[Rocksthemic]

 it is not an equal exchange between 1 point of healing and one point of hate, HOWEVER... putting your ward up as an MT paladin isn't for n00bs by any stretch. You have 4 taunts (counting sigil of heroism) you fire off encounter taunt, single target taunt, and shield bash, and should have time to cast your ward before your single target taunt even comes up again. Putting that ward on yourself helps not only to keep you alive, but it does generate some hate. Your combat arts are NOT what you use to keep aggro. If you think you can keep aggro from dps alone, take off your amends and do nothing but taunt and attack. Every class gets tools to help them keep aggro. Guardians get inflaming defense, moderate, etc. Beserkers get sheer dps, and a version of inflaming defense, SK's get death march, and whatever their spell is that is like a hate ward (forget the name of it atm) Monks and Bruisers both get an ability that lets them generate aggro when an attack lands (which is why they have some of the best single target aggro in the game) Paladins get amends. It is by DESIGN that we must rely on another group member for a majority of our aggro. This is what allows us (in theory, at least) to use our heals while tanking. As was stated above, it is not a good idea to just spam our heal and ward to the exclusion of all else on raids, but we can cycle our taunts and our major dps attacks and still have time to throw a ward in there every now and then. Especially if you go down the str line from KoS and get some of the EoF healing AA's. Heck our refusal line is a super long cast, and by your theory that wards take to long to cast, we shouldn't be using that ability on raids either? Amends can be a wonderful tool in groups or raids. The other day I was in obelisk, and had amends on a monk, and swashy in group had hate transfer on me. I went AFK for a smoke and the whole group was laughing at me because I was tanking even when afk. With amends and hate transfer, I was pulling aggro without a single taunt. Granted raids and groups are entirely different, but the point is it isn't our dps that generates our aggro, it is amends. <div></div>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rocksthemic wrote:<BR> it is not an equal exchange between 1 point of healing and one point of hate, HOWEVER... putting your ward up as an MT paladin isn't for n00bs by any stretch. You have 4 taunts (counting sigil of heroism) you fire off encounter taunt, single target taunt, and shield bash, and should have time to cast your ward before your single target taunt even comes up again. Putting that ward on yourself helps not only to keep you alive, but it does generate some hate. Your combat arts are NOT what you use to keep aggro. If you think you can keep aggro from dps alone, take off your amends and do nothing but taunt and attack.<BR><BR>Every class gets tools to help them keep aggro. Guardians get inflaming defense, moderate, etc. Beserkers get sheer dps, and a version of inflaming defense, SK's get death march, and whatever their spell is that is like a hate ward (forget the name of it atm) Monks and Bruisers both get an ability that lets them generate aggro when an attack lands (which is why they have some of the best single target aggro in the game)<BR><BR>Paladins get amends. It is by DESIGN that we must rely on another group member for a majority of our aggro. This is what allows us (in theory, at least) to use our heals while tanking. As was stated above, it is not a good idea to just spam our heal and ward to the exclusion of all else on raids, but we can cycle our taunts and our major dps attacks and still have time to throw a ward in there every now and then. Especially if you go down the str line from KoS and get some of the EoF healing AA's. Heck our refusal line is a super long cast, and by your theory that wards take to long to cast, we shouldn't be using that ability on raids either?<BR><BR>Amends can be a wonderful tool in groups or raids. The other day I was in obelisk, and had amends on a monk, and swashy in group had hate transfer on me. I went AFK for a smoke and the whole group was laughing at me because I was tanking even when afk. With amends and hate transfer, I was pulling aggro without a single taunt. Granted raids and groups are entirely different, but the point is it isn't our dps that generates our aggro, it is amends. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The problem with relying on another person for aggro control is that amends is group only. The need for 3 healers in the raids MT group is critical now, and the dirges and coercer's role in the MT group are locked in...that leaves little room for a "DPS" class to help the MT. You sacrifice about 500 HP and about 4% agi by not having a druid in the MT group. Prior to EoF, avoidance wasn't a huge issue since mobs had to hit bonuses that nerfed avoidance (hence the brawlers not being able to tank epics). Some guilds often went with a swash or assassin in the MT group (Tank, shaman (defiler preference), cleric (templar pref), coercer, dirge, Assassin/Swash. Now post EoF avoidance is a lot more important. Too much damage absorbtion / HP / mitigation is lost by having a paladin MT anymore. This would be totally changed if the devs made amends raid friendly...that would solve a ton of problems. That would give raids (X2 or X4) a reason for having paladins tank...not sacrifice everything for no increase in hate gain.</P> <P>So much for wishing.</P><p>Message Edited by Fatuus on <span class=date_text>11-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:19 PM</span>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Majorminor wrote:</P> <P>As far as Hate generation is concerned 1 point of taunt = 1 point of dps = 1 point of heal, or at least that was the case.</P> <P>So you get Ward off, that 1.2k ward generates 1.2k Hate,  plus whatever DPS your doing, sure you lose an attack while casting, but it's off set by the aggro from the ward /shrug.  I don't think spamming a ward/heal/groupheal when ever there up is a good idea, If you can get it off, which is the key, it really doesn't hurt aggro control all that much, from what I see anyway /shrug.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That used to be the way things worked for a while after LU13. However, they determined that shamen were amassing far too much aggro due to this, so they lowered the amount of 'hate' that was generated by wards. This negatively affected our ability to use wards as aggro generators. I don't recall a specific announcement about lowering heal 'hate', but I'm pretty certain I've seen a dev post mentioning it at one point.</P> <P>~Hawke</P>

[Rocksthemic]

<div></div>Yeah, I'm to lazy to go look it up, but the devs directly stated that 1 point of healing does not = 1 point of hate. Only dmg and taunts are a 1 to 1 ratio. As far as paladin MT, I go with Shaman (defiler preffered), Cleric (templar preffered), dirge, coercer, and since avoidance is important, a monk in MT group for amends target. Monks can generate MASSIVE single target aggro, making them ideal for named, AE aggro gets a little touchy in raid situations, especially warlocks if they are not in a group with troubador. The 500 additional HP from a druid in MT group is nice, but you get more than 4% avoidance from a monk buffing you. Right now our MT gaurdian is on tour, so we have a beserker MT usually, and we put swashy in there to hate dump on him. With coercer, dirge, and swashy hate dump, it helps our MT keep aggro VERY nicely. I am generally in the offtank group with other templar, mystic, illusionist, assassin, and monk. The point is, IF you are nicely geared, IF you know your class forward and back, IF you have a well coodinated raid force, and IF you have the proper MT group set up, you can tank most raid encounters with a paladin. I believe the only 2 encounters that have not been tanked by a paladin (yet) are matron and cheldrak. 2 encounters out of all the raid encounters is a lot more than monks and bruisers get. I myself love my paladin. I am raid leader for my guild, and so it's much easier for me to lead and see what is going on if I'm not directly tanking and spamming taunts, etc. I know I am not currently first or even second choice for raid MT if our guardian and beserker are there, and accept that. HOWEVER... I think that paladins should be a viable option for tanking on raids for every encounter. Same with SK's, monks, and bruisers. No fighter class should be excluded from their role on any level. Just my 2cp. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Rocksthemic on <span class=date_text>11-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 PM</span>

[PolarBear77]

<DIV>To my knowledge every mob in the game with the exception of Matron (haven't got the chance) has been tanked by a pally (pre EoF). This i am 100% sure of ...why? b/c i have done it. I read somewhere in this thread, (to lazy to look for it) that our aggro abiltiy is subpar to other tanks...  First off im betting your one of those dumbasses that put Amends on the healer in the group for 1 and 2 i bet you try to tank like your guilds warriors.. Amends is unsurpassed in aggro control. you need to learn the right classes to put it on. this is just mho Zerkers > all for Amends then for aoe mobs Wiz or Swashy and for single target Brigs/Brawler and i would love to see any guard or zerker try to tank Tarinax solo would hate to spot there repair bill if they did.  So to AoE,  we are the new Kings of holding aoe aggro atm. (untill we get nerf of course) atm no classes can come anywhere close to our crowd control with our 4 AoEs (Conviction, Circle, Smite and Doom/Casitgate i count them as one since they both have long recasts) Brimstone for a AE not to mention our AE taunt and Consecrate with 68% spell crits  and the best is yet to come Amends on top of all of that. That is just [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing ownage, so whoever said that, you should have quit the game back in Stormhold. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now to the next thing since we have the aggro control issue taken care of. It comes to being able to take the beats. and this here is the only thing stoping us from being the ultament raid tank. If we had some sort of mit and parry buff  i would say we could contend with guards as being the prefered raid tank. atm however do have neither and i don't ever see us getting one. I know me and others [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed in beta every day that we need something to boost our mit and it fell on def ears.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that we have that pointed out all i can say is <STRONG>DEAL</STRONG> with it.  im so sick of little [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing crying over we can't do this and we can't do that it is a no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing wonder why more ppl don't post here. all they read is ppl crying over how our class sucks well then if you wanted easy street reroll [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es and we select few TANK pallys will continue to own [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] even when we are are told you/we can't </DIV>

[FatedByChan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FatedByChance wrote:<BR> <P>Maybe it's just me, amends always seemed to keep me way safer than any guardian ever could.</P> <P>So when exactly does everything for a paly start going to hell? I just made mine, got it to 30, and I'm loving it. They are so resourceful, having a little bit of everything is nice.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There's a huge difference between a level 30 paladin and a lvl 70 one when it comes to fights. You don't see the crazy issues that high lvl paladins get when tanking....specifically stuns. Its stuns that kill us when in Castle Mistmore or Nazara....These instances have incurable dots that prevent us from casting our taunts. Keep in mind amends isn't an aggro lock...you still need to be able to taunt to keep aggro. If you can't taunt your group will die just as easily as before....there is no difference. Warriors and brawlers have the ability to use taunts WHILE stunned...a huge advantage when taking on these zones. I can't hit Castle mistmore without 2 healers and an enchanter, I have seen several guardians do it pretty easily with just 2 healers and 3 dpsers.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That makes perfect sense actually, that is rather upsetting. Thanks for clearing that up.<BR>

[YummiOger]

<DIV>While I don't think spamming or trying to spam heals/wards while MT is a really good idea. <P><FONT color=#66ffff>As far as Hate generation is concerned 1 point of taunt = 1 point of dps = 1 point of heal, or at least that was the case</FONT>.</P> <P>So you get Ward off, that 1.2k ward generates 1.2k Hate,  plus whatever DPS your doing, sure you lose an attack while casting, but it's off set by the aggro from the ward /shrug.  I don't think spamming a ward/heal/groupheal when ever there up is a good idea, If you can get it off, which is the key, it really doesn't hurt aggro control all that much, from what I see anyway /shrug.</P> <P></P> <DIV><A href="http://www.eqsig.com/direct.php?ref=2182" target=_blank><IMG alt="Zrais's Signature" src="http://www.eqsig.com/sig/2182.png" border=0></A></DIV></DIV> <DIV>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just to piont out, The DEVS (Lockeye & Mooreguard both) have specificly stated that 1hate = 1damage, but Heals produce LESS Hate and are NOT 1:1 ratio. Dps Vs Heal parses have placed it ruffly @ 1Heal = ~.6Hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lockeye's post -> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078#M8078" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078#M8078</A></DIV> <P> </P> <P>PS i Love Wisdom Battle Leadership when grouping with Crusaders after EoF :smileyvery-happy:</P><p>Message Edited by YummiOger on <span class=date_text>11-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:28 AM</span>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> YummiOger wrote:<BR> <DIV>While I don't think spamming or trying to spam heals/wards while MT is a really good idea. <P><FONT color=#66ffff>As far as Hate generation is concerned 1 point of taunt = 1 point of dps = 1 point of heal, or at least that was the case</FONT>.</P> <P>So you get Ward off, that 1.2k ward generates 1.2k Hate,  plus whatever DPS your doing, sure you lose an attack while casting, but it's off set by the aggro from the ward /shrug.  I don't think spamming a ward/heal/groupheal when ever there up is a good idea, If you can get it off, which is the key, it really doesn't hurt aggro control all that much, from what I see anyway /shrug.</P> <P></P> <DIV><A href="http://www.eqsig.com/direct.php?ref=2182" target=_blank><IMG alt="Zrais's Signature" src="http://www.eqsig.com/sig/2182.png" border=0></A></DIV></DIV> <DIV>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just to piont out, The DEVS (Lockeye & Mooreguard both) have specificly stated that 1hate = 1damage, but Heals produce LESS Hate and are NOT 1:1 ratio. Dps Vs Heal parses have placed it ruffly @ 1Heal = ~.6Hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lockeye's post -> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078#M8078" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=commnews&message.id=8078#M8078</A></DIV> <P> </P> <P>PS i Love Wisdom Battle Leadership when grouping with Crusaders after EoF :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Message Edited by YummiOger on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:28 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>1.4k Ward (master I) X .6 = 840 ish hate gain.....Keep in mind it takes 2 seconds to CAST the spell...In that 2 seconds I can and WILL automelee for more then that in the MT group with my 1h weapon. You CANNOT automelee (including proc damage) when casting spells. If you use the decrease casting timers for your direct heal...that can almost make sense to use (1.2 sec cast timer to heal yourself on crits for up to 1.4k...I have yet to see my ward crit...note with 10% cast timer reductions).</P> <P>Bottom line by your own logic it makes sense to NOT use your wards when healing...unless you are not well geared and have an inferior MT group setup...</P> <P>Note: Dirge can give you a 45% haste buff, STR lines give you an additional 36% haste, Amulet of Foresworn gives 23% haste, you get a 75% DPS mod from the coercer and your Marr's cloak can give you an additional 15% DPS mod. This is not including the 10% DPS mod you can add to your neck item as an adornment.</P> <P>This equals peak haste of 104 points of haste (95% haste in reality) and 100 points of DPS (93% DPS in reality).</P><p>Message Edited by Fatuus on <span class=date_text>11-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:11 AM</span>

[Majorminor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>1.4k Ward (master I) X .6 = 840 ish hate gain.....Keep in mind it takes 2 seconds to CAST the spell...In that 2 seconds I can and WILL automelee for more then that in the MT group with my 1h weapon. You CANNOT automelee (including proc damage) when casting spells. If you use the decrease casting timers for your direct heal...that can almost make sense to use (1.2 sec cast timer to heal yourself on crits for up to 1.4k...I have yet to see my ward crit...note with 10% cast timer reductions).</P> <P>Bottom line by your own logic it makes sense to NOT use your wards when healing...unless you are not well geared and have an inferior MT group setup...</P> <P>Note: Dirge can give you a 45% haste buff, STR lines give you an additional 36% haste, Amulet of Foresworn gives 23% haste, you get a 75% DPS mod from the coercer and your Marr's cloak can give you an additional 15% DPS mod. This is not including the 10% DPS mod you can add to your neck item as an adornment.</P> <P>This equals peak haste of 104 points of haste (95% haste in reality) and 100 points of DPS (93% DPS in reality).</P> <P>Message Edited by Fatuus on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:11 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>While I did say, I don't think spamming heals/wards/ is a great idea, They don't have such a negative effect as you want to try and show.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Taken from the Link,<BR></P> <DIV>7) <U>How much hate does healing / being healed generate</U>? (This includes wards.)  Does healing/warding give a 1 to 1 threat output?  When I am healed/warded do I gain some amount of hate from this act, and how much do I gain?</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Heals/Wards have less than a 1:1 threat return.</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Now the link that was posted to show Heals are not 1:1 is a great post, I do remeber seeing that abit ago.  Nowere does it say that the ratio is 1point heal= .6 hate.  While it is a safe number to use for rough estimates, it's still just that.  The number could be 1 point heal = .9 hate it could be as low as .2 /shrug.  I would think somewhere between .6-.8 would be a good guess though.  But that's all it would be, a guess.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Note: Dirge can give you a 45% haste buff, STR lines give you an additional 36% haste, Amulet of Foresworn gives 23% haste, you get a 75% DPS mod from the coercer and your Marr's cloak can give you an additional 15% DPS mod. This is not including the 10% DPS mod you can add to your neck item as an adornment.</P> <P>This equals peak haste of 104 points of haste (95% haste in reality) and 100 points of DPS (93% DPS in reality).</P> <P>Message Edited by Fatuus on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:11 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>All that haste doesn't mean a thing when You get Parried/Blocked/or Miss.  All those still = 0 dps when they happen,  which means 0 hate from dps.  Now sure, not every ward will get interupted, and you won't get parried/blocked/or miss everytime.  But, they both can and do happen at times.</P> <P> </P> <P>I am in noway saying to spam heal/ward while MT.  A preward onPull and maybe a ward/heal if I think it's needed during a fight are not going to cause me to lose aggro.  Just like you missing a few times in a row wouldn't cause you to lose aggro.<BR> </P> <P>Same ends, different means.  Neither one any better or worse than the other.</P> <P> </P>

[YummiOger]

<DIV>personally done from ACT. Lv 70 Zerker .Only Def Stance ON no procs on anything. Lv 70 Defiler useing M1 Sacraficial Heal only. Mob = Stoneridge Gaurdian infront of Great Nest. Gave the Zerker a few secs to build inital aggro via Damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Piont at which the Mob turned on the Defiler was Damage=15763 Vs Heals=24782  .. 15763/24782 = <FONT color=#66ffff>.636066</FONT>.... </DIV>

[Caetrel]

I guess YMMV I ward like crazy when MTing and have no aggro issues from doing so.   Especially slow big hitters who won't interrupt.  While everyone might have a different idea of what works for them, it's silly to not try and employ everything at your disposal, and find just exactly where that fine line is.   Aggro is trickier now than it was, but you can still build groups to make keeping aggro trivial.  <div></div>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lynassihr wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>With this, upcoming Paladins don't get the good stuff, as it goes to Berserker/Guardians. Comparing Equipment, the Paladins in our guild are weaker outfitted than the Guardians. Guardians get more chances for Nizara, Nek3, Valdoon...</P> <P><FONT color=#3333ff>This is due largely to ignorance. Give a Paladin the same gear as the others and they can tank the same mobs. Keep the good gear away from the Paladins and it's a no brainer why they can't keep up. A tank is only as good as the gear he/she is wearing.</FONT></P> <P>Feeling: <BR>Paladin is a dying class. </P> <P><FONT color=#3333ff>No it isn't.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Lynassihr on <SPAN class=date_text>11-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:12 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Rast]

I know I am pushing to be geared as the MT in my guild on LDL and I intent to be the best at it that I can be.

[ltnlogan]

personally i am happy with my pally they are a decent enough mt and a great solo artist.in fact i am having trouble deciding on another class to play because every other class i look at just isnt a pally

[Kaleyen]

Paladin and raid tanking. Discussion has started here: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=347565�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...65�</a>

[PolarBear77]

<p>FOR [I cannot control my vocabulary] SAKES!!!!!!!! i have said it before in past posts Paladins have tanked EVERY mob in KoS including Chel and Matron (how do i know? b/c i have ) ... [I cannot control my vocabulary] i swear ill have to say this 10 more time in the next month or so ........</p>

[Laky96]

<cite>Kaleyen wrote:</cite><blockquote> <blockquote><hr /> <span style="color: #ffff00">My sole purpose in raids is for my amends on the wizard.  My rez is a longer cast time then the dirge rez so I'm rarely ever rez'ing on a raid, especially when we have two dirges on a raid.</span> <hr /></blockquote> <p></blockquote> </p><p>Oh my god. i hope you are kidding in this point. Im in dps group with wizards,conjy's,troub. when i put amends on wizard then half of fight is mob on me(im forbidden to put amends on wizz lol).for example wizz will do like 1300dps i can push 1000+/- add 41% of his hate to mine and thats it <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. put pally to right group and he will beat the s*** out of each named. I really wasnt happy with my pally from lvl 50-65 but then things changed and on lvl 70 pally rocks really <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Ogrepalad]

<p>First off--Maghnus. I am always happy to see a paladin happy with his class, and even better when the paladin is a brother (I myself play an ogre paladin of 70 seasons, born the day this game came out--though due to breaks he is lessed geared than you).</p><p>However, your posts are hard to read with all the {explitive haxorred by Rajin}--please, you will make your points better if you skip the swearing, since they won't let it on the forums anyhow. Mind you, I am not complaining about the swearing--an ogre has a point to make--but it doesn't translate the same being filtered out.</p><p> I see folks talking about using wards, and have not yet seen someone mention what seems to me the obvious--use the ward BEFORE the pull. You all know that your shamans cannot ward you before the pull--they just die on pull, every time. Our ward is much smaller, and does not pull nearly the aggro, but it does make a difference. In general, in a dungeon, if I body pull, the mobs go straight for the healer until my stuns land, but if I ward myself first, that is much reduced. And it is free--you don't have to be trying to get it off after the mob hits you, or warding instead of dpsing.</p>

[Pins]

I might not be a Paladin, but I see people down-talking Block.  You are aware that Defense/Parry against high-level raid mobs with +to hit end up becoming nearly meaningless, and that Block is an uncontested roll that only goes against Level and +to hit is completely ignored right?  So while your "avoidance" goes up 3.5%, your real avoidance vs. epics goes up by a lot more.

[Verismo]

<p>I absolutely love the Paladin class!</p><p>The versatility alone makes it more interesting than other, single-faceted, roles.  But if you want it to be easy, reroll dirge and AF the MT.  </p><p>I am the MA and OT for my raid group.  I sit in G1 and can put out 1100+ DPS and react fast enough (changing stances and symbol to shield) to rescue a mob 'if' our MT goes down.  But that takes practice mixed with understanding and trusting your group.  Of course it helps if your healers are not numbsculls and don't know what 'heal-through-the-mob' means.  (But that is a seperate thread.)</p><p>Clearly my DPS suffers on most named fights because I am playing a different role at that point.  But, as a bit of advice, if your Paladin character is invited to a raid to heal, DON"T GO!  That just means they don't have enough.  No way in hell a pally can fully replace a healer (Duh). </p><p>Have I tanked T7 KoS raids?  Yes.  Can I tank any zone? Yes.  Are they many many crap Paladins on my server?  Yes.  (But still less than the crap wizards and guards.)</p><p>But to be perfectly honest, I would rather play the support and OT.  Raid MT is a thankless job. </p><p>___</p><p>Verismo</p><p>70 Paladin</p><p>Lucan D'Lere</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

<cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote>I might not be a Paladin, but I see people down-talking Block.  You are aware that Defense/Parry against high-level raid mobs with +to hit end up becoming nearly meaningless, and that Block is an uncontested roll that only goes against Level and +to hit is completely ignored right?  So while your "avoidance" goes up 3.5%, your real avoidance vs. epics goes up by a lot more.</blockquote> Right you are, block is around 75% effective on yellow conned epics, while base/defense is around 25% effective and parry a little better at 33% effective.  Anybody that doesnt see the advantage of having blocking mastery and block adornments coupled with a nice shield is either soloing or not playing their paladin in a raid environment other than buffbot/healer/rezbot mode.  If you wish to tank, block is your most powerful option to raise.

[MikeMatsumo]

Ok guys, for finish this topic. Im Main tank in Divine Council in BuckerBlocker server right now. my char: <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=356656108" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=356656108</a> We are having alot success in that. I will say how I tank here, and hope help people. 1) get full master/adept III 2) aa crusader:   str: 4 4 4 5 8 (very important for have more aggro. use axe. you can cast spells more faster, a beautifull attack with axe that will give for you a insane attack speed too)   wiz: 4 4 4 4 8 (fear stuffs, and can cast more faster)     aa paladin:   full heal line (you can cast your ward EACH 8 SECONDS, believe me, this is insane)   full Hero line (of course because block mastered, and big incress in sigil of heroism) use everything that give for you more defense,block,agi. buy adormments that give +67crushing, slashing, piercing. will give almost 100 points in mitigation for you. in defense instance I have: 61% in mitigation and I think (dont remember very well, 49% avoid or more i need check this). When I group for raid i have 62.5% or 63.5% (depends class) and something like 11500hp. I put a shadownight, templar, dirge, defiler, fury or warden in MT raid. Why? dirge: give me master II spell for more aggro and immunie aoe for group. healers: I think i dont need say why <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> shadownight: he gives pledge of armmament and i use sk for have more aggro. I cast my amends on him. So, sk jobs is taunt like crazy after 5 seconds from pull and use Death March and Pestilent Touch. BELIEVE ME, will give aggro enought for any named in KoS. (sk need have full master in this spells, and need be a good player in dps mode, ask for sk set aa lines for everyting that give more dps. like str and int line) so, with this set, im tanking everyting in KoS. without problems with aggro. i handle aggro, when my raid are doing 14k in dps. good ah? I have something that help in aggro: ascendant axe - i found in DT. give for you one extra taunt each 1m. a reward from quest DT access - amulet of the forswon. with this neck and your str line you will have haste in 55-60% ALL TIMES. this is really insane and important for have more aggro. you will be pally/berseker in attack speed. special when you use your special attack speed. second spell in aa line. with that set in aa lines, your recast time in ward will be 8 SECONDS. THATS IT. each 8 seconds you can cast again. i have 13200 hp each 8 seconds. really important. for tank: first make a macro like that: /target_yourself /useability Devotion /target_lastmob (something like that) with this macro, you you dont need press F1, cast spell andtarget mob again by yourself. so, you will target the mob, CAST SIGIL OF HEROISM, use your macro for ward and pull. if possible: pull with brinstone (will hit all group, so more group hate on pull) if not, use body pull, and use dot taunt, when mob in save place, group taunt, attack shield and hit SIGIL OF HEROISM(yes again. sigil of heroism, many people dont know about that, but works better with 2 hits. its like: first hit only pre-cast spell. spell will start when time overs, or when you trigger spell again. just hit button again for that)... use devout strike (dot attack that will give you more hate), then use second spell in str line. give to you a big buff in attack speed for 20 seconds i think. so, aggro FTW. use all your aoe attacks while you wait for recast in this spells above. start everthing again. try talk with sk what is the best time for use Death March and Pestilent Touch. the best time of course is when your SIGIL OF HEROISM is up. (macro message and vent/ts can help you in this). if you lost aggro: first ask for sk use death march. believe will come back to you. that spell is insane for aggro. if not works, sk need rescue. with your amends, will come back to you. you only need use rescue when rescue sk not works. AMENDS/SIGIL OF HEROISM FTW. thats it guys. and i will awnser my own question now. YES WE CAN TANK EVERYTHING. but need full set. and its all about you find a good sk/defiler/templar/dirge for work together in buffs and learn how use your spells in pull. special (sigil, taunts, dots and ward) good luck. sorry for english. if anyone wanna re-edit this topic and try help me fixed english will be great. ty.

[Nevar]

<cite>MikeMatsumoto wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok guys, for finish this topic. Im Main tank in Divine Council in BuckerBlocker server right now. my char: <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=356656108" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=356656108</a> We are having alot success in that. I will say how I tank here, and hope help people. 1) get full master/adept III 2) aa crusader:   str: 4 4 4 5 8 (very important for have more aggro. use axe. you can cast spells more faster, a beautifull attack with axe that will give for you a insane attack speed too)   wiz: 4 4 4 4 8 (fear stuffs, and can cast more faster)     aa paladin:   full heal line (you can cast your ward EACH 8 SECONDS, believe me, this is insane)   full Hero line (of course because block mastered, and big incress in sigil of heroism) use everything that give for you more defense,block,agi. buy adormments that give +67crushing, slashing, piercing. will give almost 100 points in mitigation for you. in defense instance I have: 61% in mitigation and I think (dont remember very well, 49% avoid or more i need check this). When I group for raid i have 62.5% or 63.5% (depends class) and something like 11500hp. I put a shadownight, templar, dirge, defiler, fury or warden in MT raid. Why? dirge: give me master II spell for more aggro and immunie aoe for group. healers: I think i dont need say why <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> shadownight: he gives pledge of armmament and i use sk for have more aggro. I cast my amends on him. So, sk jobs is taunt like crazy after 5 seconds from pull and use Death March and Pestilent Touch. BELIEVE ME, will give aggro enought for any named in KoS. (sk need have full master in this spells, and need be a good player in dps mode, ask for sk set aa lines for everyting that give more dps. like str and int line) so, with this set, im tanking everyting in KoS. without problems with aggro. i handle aggro, when my raid are doing 14k in dps. good ah? I have something that help in aggro: ascendant axe - i found in DT. give for you one extra taunt each 1m. a reward from quest DT access - amulet of the forswon. with this neck and your str line you will have haste in 55-60% ALL TIMES. this is really insane and important for have more aggro. you will be pally/berseker in attack speed. special when you use your special attack speed. second spell in aa line. with that set in aa lines, your recast time in ward will be 8 SECONDS. THATS IT. each 8 seconds you can cast again. i have 13200 hp each 8 seconds. really important. for tank: first make a macro like that: /target_yourself /useability Devotion /target_lastmob (something like that) with this macro, you you dont need press F1, cast spell andtarget mob again by yourself. so, you will target the mob, CAST SIGIL OF HEROISM, use your macro for ward and pull. if possible: pull with brinstone (will hit all group, so more group hate on pull) if not, use body pull, and use dot taunt, when mob in save place, group taunt, attack shield and hit SIGIL OF HEROISM(yes again. sigil of heroism, many people dont know about that, but works better with 2 hits. its like: first hit only pre-cast spell. spell will start when time overs, or when you trigger spell again. just hit button again for that)... use devout strike (dot attack that will give you more hate), then use second spell in str line. give to you a big buff in attack speed for 20 seconds i think. so, aggro FTW. use all your aoe attacks while you wait for recast in this spells above. start everthing again. try talk with sk what is the best time for use Death March and Pestilent Touch. the best time of course is when your SIGIL OF HEROISM is up. (macro message and vent/ts can help you in this). if you lost aggro: first ask for sk use death march. believe will come back to you. that spell is insane for aggro. if not works, sk need rescue. with your amends, will come back to you. you only need use rescue when rescue sk not works. AMENDS/SIGIL OF HEROISM FTW. thats it guys. and i will awnser my own question now. YES WE CAN TANK EVERYTHING. but need full set. and its all about you find a good sk/defiler/templar/dirge for work together in buffs and learn how use your spells in pull. special (sigil, taunts, dots and ward) good luck. sorry for english. if anyone wanna re-edit this topic and try help me fixed english will be great. ty. </blockquote> Sorry man but mit is useless. For the best bang for the buck keep your mit around 58.5-59% solo. I say this because around 61% you run into the curve and dont get much for mit. I have 58.5% mit, 54 avoid and 10.4hp.  Where you can put mit you put shield block. It is a raw check against epics and owns mit. 30% haste on swift axe is garbage. 8488sta and im in int line atm but I think im switching out. Not to be an [Removed for Content] but I dont think I agree with any of your points here.

[PolarBear77]

<p>MikeMatsumoto wrote:</p><p>ok i don't mean to be the one that is a [I cannot control my vocabulary] and shoots you down in your glory but there is so many thigns that i just read that make me /beat head on desk....</p><p>1 the wisdom line is omg... maybe if you think you miss alot with attacks 4/4/8 but NEVER anythign past that Immune to fear is [I cannot control my vocabulary] that simple .. name me 10 mobs in the game that fear ....... and if you just say <insert little girly voice> but it gives me 1% to all my casting and reuse timers /beats with a stick</p><p>2 the slots that can be adorn with + to mit there are other adornments that are so much better ex forearms the + 7 parry  or the wrists slot the + 1% block (which is our new nitch in tanking) sure you ahve 61% mit but your hp is extreamly low... and anything over 4500ish (self buffed) mit is fine b/c you will be buffed... to where mit doesn't matter</p><p>3 So you say you hold aggro fine with one hate buffer and non int/sta spec'ed aa's... oh thats right it is only 14K dps think of what you just said that is 14 ppl doing 1k dps that means you need to get in your wizards,assassin,swashy etc or T1 dps [I cannot control my vocabulary] for being slackers..i nearly [I cannot control my vocabulary] auto attack for 1K in dps mode.....So when you guys reach the mid 20's low 30's raid dps then you will see your the only one not holding aggro with that spec..</p><p>4 acsendant... you swear? guessing somone doesn't know that 1 hate = 1 dps and the ppl that say it does a [I cannot control my vocabulary] DEV personally told me it does when i was in beta in FTH beta testing it... so that pos 500 hate proc is [I cannot control my vocabulary] for A and B ...1.6 delay on a one hander bet you get all kinds of auto attack aggro/damage considering we are constantly cast or doing something your missing out on alot of your attacks.... and ok say you use it for the haste in the str line ... we don't get much out of haste do to the fact most of out damage is CA's and Spell's. We spamm buttons unlike warriors how get nearly 60-70% of there dps from auto attack. So haste is as great FOR US as everyone thinks it is... not saying it isn't gunna help but it isn't like [I cannot control my vocabulary] i need that.. to hold aggro.</p><p>5 your tanking method sure fine everyone has there own way if it works for you great everyones is diff but [I cannot control my vocabulary] are you talkign about here? <span style="color: #0000ff">Hit SIGIL OF HEROISM(yes again, sigil of heroism, many ppl don't know about it, works better with 2 hits. it is like the first hit only pre-cast the spell, spell will start when time overs, or when you tigger the spell again. just hit button again for that)...</span><span style="color: #ffff99"> </span><span style="color: #ffff99">umm maybe im just mis reading this and can't understand [I cannot control my vocabulary] you are talking about ...queueing the spell maybe ? b/c you know if you hit sigil twice it cancels the effect.. like it ends the spell ...I mean if your saying if you hit sigil 2 times in a arow and it magically gives you extra hate then you should have quit the game back in stormhold...</span></p><p>I didn't post this to flame you but to point out the things that aren't in focus.. seems to me you still have that KoS mind set of Mit > everything...and it isn't anymore it is about HP + avoid now.. idk maybe im justa nub and don't have a clue but if any of the other HIGH END raiding pallys read this they will all /agree with about 99% of what i said. It really makes me mad when i see posts like this b/c me a top end raider easy top 10 best geared pallys (prob low top 10) and it is those HIGH END players that knows what we need to fix or tweek in our class and we have ppl posting this pos that devs read and say ..oh.. they are fine we don't need to do anythign about them... good game is all i can say atm good [I cannot control my vocabulary] game</p><blockquote>Ok guys, for finish this topic. Im Main tank in Divine Council in BuckerBlocker server right now. my char: <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=356656108" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=356656108</a> We are having alot success in that. I will say how I tank here, and hope help people. 1) get full master/adept III 2) aa crusader:   str: 4 4 4 5 8 (very important for have more aggro. use axe. you can cast spells more faster, a beautifull attack with axe that will give for you a insane attack speed too)   wiz: 4 4 4 4 8 (fear stuffs, and can cast more faster)     aa paladin:   full heal line (you can cast your ward EACH 8 SECONDS, believe me, this is insane)   full Hero line (of course because block mastered, and big incress in sigil of heroism) use everything that give for you more defense,block,agi. buy adormments that give +67crushing, slashing, piercing. will give almost 100 points in mitigation for you. in defense instance I have: 61% in mitigation and I think (dont remember very well, 49% avoid or more i need check this). When I group for raid i have 62.5% or 63.5% (depends class) and something like 11500hp. I put a shadownight, templar, dirge, defiler, fury or warden in MT raid. Why? dirge: give me master II spell for more aggro and immunie aoe for group. healers: I think i dont need say why <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> shadownight: he gives pledge of armmament and i use sk for have more aggro. I cast my amends on him. So, sk jobs is taunt like crazy after 5 seconds from pull and use Death March and Pestilent Touch. BELIEVE ME, will give aggro enought for any named in KoS. (sk need have full master in this spells, and need be a good player in dps mode, ask for sk set aa lines for everyting that give more dps. like str and int line) so, with this set, im tanking everyting in KoS. without problems with aggro. i handle aggro, when my raid are doing 14k in dps. good ah? I have something that help in aggro: ascendant axe - i found in DT. give for you one extra taunt each 1m. a reward from quest DT access - amulet of the forswon. with this neck and your str line you will have haste in 55-60% ALL TIMES. this is really insane and important for have more aggro. you will be pally/berseker in attack speed. special when you use your special attack speed. second spell in aa line. with that set in aa lines, your recast time in ward will be 8 SECONDS. THATS IT. each 8 seconds you can cast again. i have 13200 hp each 8 seconds. really important. for tank: first make a macro like that: /target_yourself /useability Devotion /target_lastmob (something like that) with this macro, you you dont need press F1, cast spell andtarget mob again by yourself. so, you will target the mob, CAST SIGIL OF HEROISM, use your macro for ward and pull. if possible: pull with brinstone (will hit all group, so more group hate on pull) if not, use body pull, and use dot taunt, when mob in save place, group taunt, attack shield and hit SIGIL OF HEROISM(yes again. sigil of heroism, many people dont know about that, but works better with 2 hits. its like: first hit only pre-cast spell. spell will start when time overs, or when you trigger spell again. just hit button again for that)... use devout strike (dot attack that will give you more hate), then use second spell in str line. give to you a big buff in attack speed for 20 seconds i think. so, aggro FTW. use all your aoe attacks while you wait for recast in this spells above. start everthing again. try talk with sk what is the best time for use Death March and Pestilent Touch. the best time of course is when your SIGIL OF HEROISM is up. (macro message and vent/ts can help you in this). if you lost aggro: first ask for sk use death march. believe will come back to you. that spell is insane for aggro. if not works, sk need rescue. with your amends, will come back to you. you only need use rescue when rescue sk not works. AMENDS/SIGIL OF HEROISM FTW. thats it guys. and i will awnser my own question now. YES WE CAN TANK EVERYTHING. but need full set. and its all about you find a good sk/defiler/templar/dirge for work together in buffs and learn how use your spells in pull. special (sigil, taunts, dots and ward) good luck. sorry for english. if anyone wanna re-edit this topic and try help me fixed english will be great. ty. </blockquote>

[Demoley]

<cite>MikeMatsumoto wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok guys, for finish this topic. Im Main tank in Divine Council in BuckerBlocker server right now. my char: <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=356656108" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=356656108</a> We are having alot success in that. I will say how I tank here, and hope help people. 1) get full master/adept III 2) aa crusader:   str: 4 4 4 5 8 (very important for have more aggro. use axe. you can cast spells more faster, a beautifull attack with axe that will give for you a insane attack speed too)   wiz: 4 4 4 4 8 (fear stuffs, and can cast more faster)     aa paladin:   full heal line (you can cast your ward EACH 8 SECONDS, believe me, this is insane)   full Hero line (of course because block mastered, and big incress in sigil of heroism) use everything that give for you more defense,block,agi. buy adormments that give +67crushing, slashing, piercing. will give almost 100 points in mitigation for you. in defense instance I have: 61% in mitigation and I think (dont remember very well, 49% avoid or more i need check this). When I group for raid i have 62.5% or 63.5% (depends class) and something like 11500hp. I put a shadownight, templar, dirge, defiler, fury or warden in MT raid. Why? dirge: give me master II spell for more aggro and immunie aoe for group. healers: I think i dont need say why <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> shadownight: he gives pledge of armmament and i use sk for have more aggro. I cast my amends on him. So, sk jobs is taunt like crazy after 5 seconds from pull and use Death March and Pestilent Touch. BELIEVE ME, will give aggro enought for any named in KoS. (sk need have full master in this spells, and need be a good player in dps mode, ask for sk set aa lines for everyting that give more dps. like str and int line) so, with this set, im tanking everyting in KoS. without problems with aggro. i handle aggro, when my raid are doing 14k in dps. good ah? I have something that help in aggro: ascendant axe - i found in DT. give for you one extra taunt each 1m. a reward from quest DT access - amulet of the forswon. with this neck and your str line you will have haste in 55-60% ALL TIMES. this is really insane and important for have more aggro. you will be pally/berseker in attack speed. special when you use your special attack speed. second spell in aa line. with that set in aa lines, your recast time in ward will be 8 SECONDS. THATS IT. each 8 seconds you can cast again. i have 13200 hp each 8 seconds. really important. for tank: first make a macro like that: /target_yourself /useability Devotion /target_lastmob (something like that) with this macro, you you dont need press F1, cast spell andtarget mob again by yourself. so, you will target the mob, CAST SIGIL OF HEROISM, use your macro for ward and pull. if possible: pull with brinstone (will hit all group, so more group hate on pull) if not, use body pull, and use dot taunt, when mob in save place, group taunt, attack shield and hit SIGIL OF HEROISM(yes again. sigil of heroism, many people dont know about that, but works better with 2 hits. its like: first hit only pre-cast spell. spell will start when time overs, or when you trigger spell again. just hit button again for that)... use devout strike (dot attack that will give you more hate), then use second spell in str line. give to you a big buff in attack speed for 20 seconds i think. so, aggro FTW. use all your aoe attacks while you wait for recast in this spells above. start everthing again. try talk with sk what is the best time for use Death March and Pestilent Touch. the best time of course is when your SIGIL OF HEROISM is up. (macro message and vent/ts can help you in this). if you lost aggro: first ask for sk use death march. believe will come back to you. that spell is insane for aggro. if not works, sk need rescue. with your amends, will come back to you. you only need use rescue when rescue sk not works. AMENDS/SIGIL OF HEROISM FTW. thats it guys. and i will awnser my own question now. YES WE CAN TANK EVERYTHING. but need full set. and its all about you find a good sk/defiler/templar/dirge for work together in buffs and learn how use your spells in pull. special (sigil, taunts, dots and ward) good luck. sorry for english. if anyone wanna re-edit this topic and try help me fixed english will be great. ty. </blockquote>im not even going to say anything, this post made me sad the pants.....

[MikeMatsumo]

Well, I dont know why people here are so angry. And yes, you are making flame war. If its not a good idea for you dont use. Sorry. Im not trying make people angry here or trying be offencive for someone. I dunno why people anwser like that. Anyway, I just  saying that now i know: pallys can tank everything. and i try say how im doing this. Working for me really fine. Im happy, my guild is happy. yes, theres adormments +7 defense thats better then +67 if you already have 60%mitigiion. In my option. i dont aggre with you in many posts. like 1dps = 1 taunt. and 14k is average damage that each member in 24 raid (wiz, brigands, swash, rangers) doing for fight. sorry, but i think each dps doing 14k for fight and i holding this is really really good. the last aa wiz 1% its good. special with last spell in str line. how i say my recast time in ward is like 8 seconds. check yours. and in sigil of heroism, IM STUPID. that guys is right. just hit before pull and thats it. IM MEZ WITH EVERYTHING. lol sorry for any offencive post that i put here.

[PolarBear77]

<cite>MikeMatsumoto wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well, I dont know why people here are so angry. And yes, you are making flame war. If its not a good idea for you dont use. Sorry. Im not trying make people angry here or trying be offencive for someone. I dunno why people anwser like that. Anyway, I just  saying that now i know: pallys can tank everything. and i try say how im doing this. Working for me really fine. Im happy, my guild is happy. yes, theres adormments +7 defense thats better then +67 if you already have 60%mitigiion. In my option. i dont aggre with you in many posts. like 1dps = 1 taunt. and 14k is average damage that each member in 24 raid (wiz, brigands, swash, rangers) doing for fight. sorry, but i think each dps doing 14k for fight and i holding this is really really good. the last aa wiz 1% its good. special with last spell in str line. how i say my recast time in ward is like 8 seconds. check yours. and in sigil of heroism, IM STUPID. that guys is right. just hit before pull and thats it. IM MEZ WITH EVERYTHING. lol sorry for any offencive post that i put here. </blockquote>LOLLER 14K raid dps is a joke... you know man nm wastin my time  no wonder most ppl gave up and don't post anymore

[Ogrepalad]

I noticed Mikematsumo mentioned he is tanking everything in KOS. I think this conversation is about high end tanking, which for now would be EoF. Different story.

[MikeMatsumo]

I think Ogre paladin have a good point. Im noob in EOF, so i cant say. Anyone tanking EOF raid instances? How is paladin in there? Take care all.

[Vulkan_NTooki]

<p>May I ask how your AA specced Ltock?</p>