Deal with it

[Demoley]

<div></div>I personally am not too fond of the changes to our class, but once again the good players will learn to adjust those that cant hack it will move on to another class, game, or even betray, the thought has even crossed my mind, but when the time comes as i stated before the good players will be able to take what we have been giving and be able to make it work in one form or another, dpsing, battle rez, the OT job everyonce in awhile these are what we are built for, our heals may be trivial compared to say a wardens but we do have a job to do in a raid...simple as that...Our AA's could have been better yes, we could have been givin hate, but we are there to step in tank when the mt is having trouble, heal when the healers are having trouble, and minor amounts to the dps parse(compared to pure dps classes)Before we start having all other raiding paladins retire, stick it out for a few weeks see how things go, hell we may get lucky and get a massive upgrade, mostly likely im dreaming but there's always hope.<div></div>

[Canel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoley wrote:<BR> I personally am not too fond of the changes to our class, but once again the good players will learn to adjust those that cant hack it will move on to another class, game, or even betray, the thought has even crossed my mind, but when the time comes as i stated before the good players will be able to take what we have been giving and be able to make it work in one form or another, dpsing, battle rez, the OT job everyonce in awhile these are what we are built for, our heals may be trivial compared to say a wardens but we do have a job to do in a raid...simple as that...<BR><BR>Our AA's could have been better yes, we could have been givin hate, but we are there to step in tank when the mt is having trouble, heal when the healers are having trouble, and minor amounts to the dps parse(compared to pure dps classes)<BR><BR>Before we start having all other raiding paladins retire, stick it out for a few weeks see how things go, hell we may get lucky and get a massive upgrade, mostly likely im dreaming but there's always hope.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok, well I dont know how much you raid, but our AAs are gonna render us void on raids, which is what alot of the big time pallys are posting about-->these AAs, until a few month go by and hopefully SOE comes to their senses, we will basically only be strong because of the KoS AAs. I just find it disgusting how SoE claims to "play the classes to test them out" but when any logical person who actually puts time and effort into their characters, instead of a SoE staff person who creates a character, then hits a button and has a 70 50/50 pally and maybe groups with them, without actually having their own pally which they've but hard time and effort into. SoE is trying to pull up our "viability", in heals and wards--BS wards and heals are nice, but nothing that a Grandmaster Potion and some regen gear can't top over the course of a fight.

[ChopStix]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoley wrote:<BR> I personally am not too fond of the changes to our class, but once again the good players will learn to adjust those that cant hack it will move on to another class, game, or even betray, the thought has even crossed my mind, but when the time comes as i stated before the good players will be able to take what we have been giving and be able to make it work in one form or another, dpsing, battle rez, the OT job everyonce in awhile these are what we are built for, our heals may be trivial compared to say a wardens but we do have a job to do in a raid...simple as that...<BR><BR>Our AA's could have been better yes, we could have been givin hate, but we are there to step in tank when the mt is having trouble, heal when the healers are having trouble, and minor amounts to the dps parse(compared to pure dps classes)<BR><BR>Before we start having all other raiding paladins retire, stick it out for a few weeks see how things go, hell we may get lucky and get a massive upgrade, mostly likely im dreaming but there's always hope.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok, well I dont know how much you raid, but our AAs are gonna render us void on raids, which is what alot of the big time pallys are posting about-->these AAs, until a few month go by and hopefully SOE comes to their senses, we will basically only be strong because of the KoS AAs. I just find it disgusting how SoE claims to "play the classes to test them out" but when any logical person who actually puts time and effort into their characters, instead of a SoE staff person who creates a character, then hits a button and has a 70 50/50 pally and maybe groups with them, without actually having their own pally which they've but hard time and effort into. SoE is trying to pull up our "viability", in heals and wards--BS wards and heals are nice, but nothing that a Grandmaster Potion and some regen gear can't top over the course of a fight.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>exactly...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Paladins on strike as of NOW!</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Canel wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Demoley wrote: <div></div>I personally am not too fond of the changes to our class, but once again the good players will learn to adjust those that cant hack it will move on to another class, game, or even betray, the thought has even crossed my mind, but when the time comes as i stated before the good players will be able to take what we have been giving and be able to make it work in one form or another, dpsing, battle rez, the OT job everyonce in awhile these are what we are built for, our heals may be trivial compared to say a wardens but we do have a job to do in a raid...simple as that...Our AA's could have been better yes, we could have been givin hate, but we are there to step in tank when the mt is having trouble, heal when the healers are having trouble, and minor amounts to the dps parse(compared to pure dps classes)Before we start having all other raiding paladins retire, stick it out for a few weeks see how things go, hell we may get lucky and get a massive upgrade, mostly likely im dreaming but there's always hope. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Ok, well I dont know how much you raid, but our AAs are gonna render us void on raids<hr></blockquote>He raids a lot <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - Viru is a pretty high end pally, and knows his stuff.  He has been very vocal on the Paladin channel, but I am guessing he is just coming to the point where he wants to see how it plays out.Personally I didn't cancel my pre-order just in case.....I will give it a couple weeks to see how it plays out, and then make my decision.  Of course without really having the time to raid, not sure how much of a change I am going to see, but we shall find out soon.</div>

[Demoley]

i raid raid every zone weakly, contested an so on when they spawn, i [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed about our aa's with KoS but ive made the best of it, just as i will in EoF, im just saying dont give up on our class, we always have hope<div></div>

[Mgunner]

<DIV>Raiding is the problem. There is no need for a Paladin to be on a raid at the moment. There's little desire for more than one paladin in a guild, let alone a raid. I think most paladins were looking for a better role in raids. For group content, we rock. For raids, we suck.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We don't have key debuffs, we don't have fancy group deagros, we don't put out impressive DPS numbers, we don't tank nearly as well, we don't offer sexy group wide procs. Don't offer cool power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Each of those roles are highly desirable on raids. A group wide Mit transfer including fighters would have helped. But if you were seriously putting a raid together, why put a paladin in over ANY other class.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Mgunner wrote:<div></div> <div>Raiding is the problem. There is no need for a Paladin to be on a raid at the moment. There's little desire for more than one paladin in a guild, let alone a raid. I think most paladins were looking for a better role in raids. For group content, we rock. For raids, we suck.</div> <div> </div> <div>We don't have key debuffs, we don't have fancy group deagros, we don't put out impressive DPS numbers, we don't tank nearly as well, we don't offer sexy group wide procs. Don't offer cool power regen.</div> <div> </div> <div>Each of those roles are highly desirable on raids. A group wide Mit transfer including fighters would have helped. But if you were seriously putting a raid together, why put a paladin in over ANY other class.</div><hr></blockquote>We have wings?</div>

[Immuen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoley wrote:<BR> I personally am not too fond of the changes to our class, but once again the good players will learn to adjust those that cant hack it will move on to another class, game, or even betray, the thought has even crossed my mind, but when the time comes as i stated before the good players will be able to take what we have been giving and be able to make it work in one form or another, dpsing, battle rez, the OT job everyonce in awhile these are what we are built for, our heals may be trivial compared to say a wardens but we do have a job to do in a raid...simple as that...<BR><BR>Our AA's could have been better yes, we could have been givin hate, but we are there to step in <U>tank when the mt is having trouble, heal when the healers are having trouble, and minor amounts to the dps parse</U>(compared to pure dps classes)<BR><BR>Before we start having all other raiding paladins retire, stick it out for a few weeks see how things go, hell we may get lucky and get a massive upgrade, mostly likely im dreaming but there's always hope.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>  Out of Curiousness, Jaraxx ever let you MT?  or you get to play the support role all the time?

[Demoley]

<div></div>Yes, not a common accurance but ive had my day in the sun many times

[Immuen]

<P>  MTing as paladin is PITA but doable but with alot adjustments.  I remember when I first joined Strike, last year.  Jaraxx laughed at me.  Said something on the lines of Paladins do nothing well and excel at none.  Why I need a paladin in my raid?</P> <P>  Unfortunately we can be great back up class.  To excel at tanking need skills we don't have or the player behind the toon to make it happen still PITA.  I for one as well as many other don't like the idea of strickly a utility class.  A bump in MT direction would do the whole community a favor.  As well take away the negative aspect, Like what i got from a guardian.</P>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>With EoF I think my healing will improve my dps should improve. MOA4 raids on Sunday I was 6th on Dps and 7th on heals theres alot o people in between that didnt do either thing better than me I think I will have a spot on raids post EoF it just might not be MT which I am not now anyway. Take what life gives ya complain about it all you want but in the end we are the most versitile of all the tanks bar none Guardians are built to MT nothing else SK Ber Mnk Bru can all tank/dps to a pt ,but we can contribute as Tank/DPS/healer not the best but we can do it they cant. If you really want to be one demetional roll a gaurdian.</DIV>

[Immuen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hawsecav19d wrote:<BR> <DIV>With EoF I think my healing will improve my dps should improve. MOA4 raids on Sunday I was 6th on Dps and 7th on heals theres alot o people in between that didnt do either thing better than me I think I will have a spot on raids post EoF it just might not be MT which I am not now anyway. Take what life gives ya complain about it all you want but in the end we are the most versitile of all the tanks bar none Guardians are built to MT nothing else SK Ber Mnk Bru can all tank/dps to a pt ,but we can contribute as Tank/DPS/healer not the best but we can do it they cant. <U>If you really want to be one demetional roll a gaurdian.</U></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>  One demetional is making 2 classes being the only real MTs.<BR>

[hawsecav19d]

Well Immuen I partly agree with you giving us better tanking abilities would be bonus. But would you be willing to sacrifice your heals and wards and 8 aoes for say 3 more taunts and some mitigation. If the answer to that is yes why not just roll a gaurdian. Maybe I am looking at this from a RP perspective but Sony not going to give us everything we want. I dont want to give up any of my healing ability or aoe damage for anouther couple taunts and mitigation buff that would bring me closer to a subpar gaurdian than a true Pally. Shorten my heal casts and my wards or make them instants with longer recasts that would be more in line with what I always thought a Paladin was supposed to be then anouther taunt or temp armor buff. Give me something that only a paladin has, not "I want this cause the other class has it crÿ." it sounds like whining. Improvements on  paladin only abilities would be good, heals ,wards ,divine damage and taunts , amends, sigil, improve them dont give me a rip off from gaurdian line.

[Boli32]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>hawsecav19d wrote:<div>With EoF I think my healing will improve my dps should improve. MOA4 raids on Sunday I was 6th on Dps and 7th on heals theres alot o people in between that didnt do either thing better than me I think I will have a spot on raids post EoF it just might not be MT which I am not now anyway. Take what life gives ya complain about it all you want but in the end we are the most versitile of all the tanks bar none Guardians are built to MT nothing else SK Ber Mnk Bru can all tank/dps to a pt ,but we can contribute as Tank/DPS/healer not the best but we can do it they cant. If you really want to be one demetional roll a gaurdian.</div><hr></blockquote>My fury can blow a paladin's healing out of the water while pulling just slighlty less dps.... there in lies the crux of the problem... personally I think Pallys can be a great class... just we can't denouce the entire revamp just yet... there is as with every expansion a period of adjustment and figuringut new ways to do old jobs.I think the new AAs offer us more than we give them credit for.</div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>11-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:38 AM</span>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>hawsecav19d wrote:<div>With EoF I think my healing will improve my dps should improve. <b>MOA4 raids on Sunday I was 6th on Dps</b> and 7th on heals theres alot o people in between that didnt do either thing better than me I think I will have a spot on raids post EoF it just might not be MT which I am not now anyway. Take what life gives ya complain about it all you want but in the end we are the most versitile of all the tanks bar none Guardians are built to MT nothing else SK Ber Mnk Bru can all tank/dps to a pt ,but we can contribute as Tank/DPS/healer not the best but we can do it they cant. If you really want to be one demetional roll a gaurdian.</div><hr></blockquote>That just means the rest of your raid can't dps worth crap....even when I would pull out 1k parses I would never be 6th on the list.....Any non-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] / afk:SwashieNecroConjurorWizardBrigandWarlockAssass inRangerZerkerCan parse higher with ease....</div>

[Rarlin]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Mgunner wrote:<div></div> <div>Raiding is the problem. There is no need for a Paladin to be on a raid at the moment. There's little desire for more than one paladin in a guild, let alone a raid. I think most paladins were looking for a better role in raids. For group content, we rock. For raids, we suck.</div> <div> </div> <div>We don't have key debuffs, we don't have fancy group deagros, we don't put out impressive DPS numbers, we don't tank nearly as well, we don't offer sexy group wide procs. Don't offer cool power regen.</div> <div> </div> <div>Each of those roles are highly desirable on raids. A group wide Mit transfer including fighters would have helped. But if you were seriously putting a raid together, why put a paladin in over ANY other class.</div><hr></blockquote>We have wings?</div><hr></blockquote>ROFL!!! </div>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>MeridianR just suggestion but I want  you to try this if you got time money to bother with it. Sometime if your not required to tank set yourself up like this Str 500+ Sta 500+ Int 500+ Wear a Bone clasped Girdle and Int Earring with Cinder Proc both proc for over 500 crit 700 range they go of everytime you cast a spell. Spec your AA Agi 4/5/8 Sta 4/4/8 Int 4/4/8/ Grab a Pike of Pain off broker. If your guild will let you set your group up with Dirge/Berserker/Fury/Illusionist/Bruiser/Paladin. With new EoF should even improve this cause Stats will pass 700 in STR/STA/INT. Master 1 on all your AOE and most other. Cast your horse before you enter zone you loose it first time you die but till then nice bonus to auto attack till then. In multiple group pulls only do single target damage at first when healths down to 15% on first mob cut loose with all your AOE includeing taunts since they be procing for 1k-1400 each with Girdle and Earring. If you cant break 1500dps on the multiples somethings wrong. You only hit for 6-700 on singe targets but there are alot more Multiples around than singles. This dps goes out the window soon as you start having to heal/ward/rez. But if your keen and your guilds open minded try it. Have your tanking armor around just in case put all one suit on hotbar and rest on anouther. Biggest thing is dont try to be a tank try to be a dps and watch your agro cause you will get agro on the extra mobs if you cut loose to soon just like the wiz with fusion or the warlocks. Your aoe dont do near the damage but by the time you let loose 4-6 of them you will rise on hate list fast.</DIV>

[Boli32]

<blockquote><hr>hawsecav19d wrote:<div>MeridianR just suggestion but I want  you to try this if you got time money to bother with it. Sometime if your not required to tank set yourself up like this Str 500+ Sta 500+ Int 500+ Wear a Bone clasped Girdle and Int Earring with Cinder Proc both proc for over 500 crit 700 range they go of everytime you cast a spell. Spec your AA Agi 4/5/8 Sta 4/4/8 Int 4/4/8/ Grab a Pike of Pain off broker. If your guild will let you set your group up with Dirge/Berserker/Fury/Illusionist/Bruiser/Paladin. With new EoF should even improve this cause Stats will pass 700 in STR/STA/INT. Master 1 on all your AOE and most other. Cast your horse before you enter zone you loose it first time you die but till then nice bonus to auto attack till then. In multiple group pulls only do single target damage at first when healths down to 15% on first mob cut loose with all your AOE includeing taunts since they be procing for 1k-1400 each with Girdle and Earring. If you cant break 1500dps on the multiples somethings wrong. You only hit for 6-700 on singe targets but there are alot more Multiples around than singles. This dps goes out the window soon as you start having to heal/ward/rez. But if your keen and your guilds open minded try it. Have your tanking armor around just in case put all one suit on hotbar and rest on anouther. Biggest thing is dont try to be a tank try to be a dps and watch your agro cause you will get agro on the extra mobs if you cut loose to soon just like the wiz with fusion or the warlocks. Your aoe dont do near the damage but by the time you let loose 4-6 of them you will rise on hate list fast.</div><hr></blockquote>Swap out the pally and put in a zerker for another additional 500dps - the pally is where you are going wrong <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Daydeee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hawsecav19d wrote:<BR> <DIV>MeridianR just suggestion but I want  you to try this if you got time money to bother with it. Sometime if your not required to tank set yourself up like this Str 500+ Sta 500+ Int 500+ Wear a Bone clasped Girdle and Int Earring with Cinder Proc both proc for over 500 crit 700 range they go of everytime you cast a spell. Spec your AA Agi 4/5/8 Sta 4/4/8 Int 4/4/8/ Grab a Pike of Pain off broker. If your guild will let you set your group up with Dirge/Berserker/Fury/Illusionist/Bruiser/Paladin. With new EoF should even improve this cause Stats will pass 700 in STR/STA/INT. Master 1 on all your AOE and most other. Cast your horse before you enter zone you loose it first time you die but till then nice bonus to auto attack till then. In multiple group pulls only do single target damage at first when healths down to 15% on first mob cut loose with all your AOE includeing taunts since they be procing for 1k-1400 each with Girdle and Earring. If you cant break 1500dps on the multiples somethings wrong. You only hit for 6-700 on singe targets but there are alot more Multiples around than singles. This dps goes out the window soon as you start having to heal/ward/rez. But if your keen and your guilds open minded try it. Have your tanking armor around just in case put all one suit on hotbar and rest on anouther. Biggest thing is dont try to be a tank try to be a dps and watch your agro cause you will get agro on the extra mobs if you cut loose to soon just like the wiz with fusion or the warlocks. Your aoe dont do near the damage but by the time you let loose 4-6 of them you will rise on hate list fast.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Odd, when was the last time you saw a another class have a complete wardrobe change just to be effective....<BR>Wanna see where raiding paladin is going...</P> <P>Only seen this but...</P> <P><IMG src="http://home.no.net/asmod/eq2/item04.jpg"><BR></P>

[Twofeets]

<P>Im sure ill draw some wrath for this one, but...</P> <P>While many wanted a hate gain AA, I was hoping for the opposite.  I can already MT several of the easier raids (and Im far from 'uber'), and when I fail its not from losing aggro, its from Mit.  To ask for more mit makes a guardian obsolete.</P> <P>So, instead, I was hoping to see an AA which allows us to lower the rest of the groups aggro, similar to Sigil but without the transfer.</P> <P>Think this is far fetched?  Check out the conji boards.  Currently its borked, but once up and running their new AA water pet is supposed to have a group 10% deaggro to non fighters.  </P> <P>Considering SOE's push to make us utility tanks, this would do wonders for pallies on raids, especially for guilds lacking a troubador or some such to lower aggro in DPS groups.</P> <P>In the meantime, ill try my pally 'as is' for a few weeks and see how he works out.  I never expected to be the best raid tank, and as long as Im functional in raids Im happy.  My guild (especially the wizzies) love when Im around, so I guess Im lucky in that department.  It's just a game of wait and see...</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>Boli that might be true if you taking a pally thats speced to tank but if you equiped and aa to dps and berserkers speced to dps and not tank the diff will be null only tank that beating me right now is a Brusier and I will figure out how to beat him someday. Other reason was so that buffs complimented each other rather than getting voided. And yes I do need  second set of armor and jewelry to be effective I havent got enough 500mit armor with+20 to Int that I dont need to swap it out. Maybe a year from now or I hit Gibberlings Lotto I will. As stands now I can either wear high mit no int armor and tank or I can wear low mit high int and dps and do it better than most, dont believe it just buy set of T7 armor with Int the diff in Refusal of Conviction our biggest dd is 123 Int it does max of 1323dmg at 510 it does 1935dmg pre eof thats 600pts diff on one spell  and crits over 3k, tis about 30-45% diff on my aoe diff in off and def armor/stances. If you dont believe it and you got 10p laying around try it. This aint a solution to what our class needs this is how I am dealing with the way our class is. I can tank ok I can dps ok I can heal ok Berserker can only tank or dps and I am beating the Berserkers dps atm in my guild and any I have been in PUGs with.</DIV>

[Boli32]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>hawsecav19d wrote:<div>Boli that might be true if you taking a pally thats speced to tank but if you equiped and aa to dps and berserkers speced to dps and not tank the diff will be null only tank that beating me right now is a Brusier and I will figure out how to beat him someday. Other reason was so that buffs complimented each other rather than getting voided. And yes I do need  second set of armor and jewelry to be effective I havent got enough 500mit armor with+20 to Int that I dont need to swap it out. Maybe a year from now or I hit Gibberlings Lotto I will. As stands now I can either wear high mit no int armor and tank or I can wear low mit high int and dps and do it better than most, dont believe it just buy set of T7 armor with Int the diff in Refusal of Conviction our biggest dd is 123 Int it does max of 1323dmg at 510 it does 1935dmg pre eof thats 600pts diff on one spell  and crits over 3k, tis about 30-45% diff on my aoe diff in off and def armor/stances. If you dont believe it and you got 10p laying around try it. This aint a solution to what our class needs this is how I am dealing with the way our class is. I can tank ok I can dps ok I can heal ok Berserker can only tank or dps and I am beating the Berserkers dps atm in my guild and any I have been in PUGs with.</div><hr></blockquote>Any warrior can pull over 1k dps if speced right <i>whilst tanking</i>. Paladins have the least dps out of all the tank classes. Although I woudl have to admit if you get a perfectly taliored group just for your dps then you wil do a nice chunk of dps.... just  swap a zerker/shadowknight  in the same place and they'll do even more <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Gear plays a large roll... if you are comepletly fabled out and the others in your guild are in treasured you will seem to stand out a lot more.</div><p>Message Edited by boli on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 AM</span>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>hawsecav19d wrote:<div>MeridianR just suggestion but I want  you to try this if you got time money to bother with it. Sometime if your not required to tank set yourself up like this Str 500+ Sta 500+ Int 500+ Wear a Bone clasped Girdle and Int Earring with Cinder Proc both proc for over 500 crit 700 range they go of everytime you cast a spell. Spec your AA Agi 4/5/8 Sta 4/4/8 Int 4/4/8/ Grab a Pike of Pain off broker. If your guild will let you set your group up with Dirge/Berserker/Fury/Illusionist/Bruiser/Paladin. With new EoF should even improve this cause Stats will pass 700 in STR/STA/INT. Master 1 on all your AOE and most other. Cast your horse before you enter zone you loose it first time you die but till then nice bonus to auto attack till then. In multiple group pulls only do single target damage at first when healths down to 15% on first mob cut loose with all your AOE includeing taunts since they be procing for 1k-1400 each with Girdle and Earring. If you cant break 1500dps on the multiples somethings wrong. You only hit for 6-700 on singe targets but there are alot more Multiples around than singles. This dps goes out the window soon as you start having to heal/ward/rez. But if your keen and your guilds open minded try it. Have your tanking armor around just in case put all one suit on hotbar and rest on anouther. Biggest thing is dont try to be a tank try to be a dps and watch your agro cause you will get agro on the extra mobs if you cut loose to soon just like the wiz with fusion or the warlocks. Your aoe dont do near the damage but by the time you let loose 4-6 of them you will rise on hate list fast.</div><hr></blockquote>Are you serious?I sure hope that with a group with a Dirge, Zerker, Fury, Illusionist and Bruiser I could break that dps you are talking about....LOLBesides why bother getting over 1500 on AE fights if you only get 600 on single target....lol, as stated above give me a good group and I can easily zone wide parse over 1k (see that includes single and AE targets, and named) - but the fact of the matter is, plug in any dps class, or another Brawler and you just got way more dps.BTW - All of my AE's are masters (with the exception of Doom Judgement), all my single target are Masters, all my buffs are masters....see a trend here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Just because with a picture perfect group setup (and lets be real that group up there would never happen, unless you guild lacks some dps) we can dps, doesn't mean the class is WAI (working as intended).  A Zerker or Guardian with Bucklet reversal (Stamina Line AA) can break 1k while tanking.....where we need the perfect group to do it.  </div>

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>Also of note, how many guild have the extra power regen classes to stick more than one in any group other than the MT group?  My guild doesnt even run with 5 normally, at best, we expect 4 to show up, which means I dont have a single power regener in my group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And also as said, just plus in another DPS class,  with that set up, you would be seeing some scout classes and some other fighters hitting 1500 on single targets...so why take the guy who can only do that on AE fights?</DIV>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hawsecav19d wrote:<BR> <DIV>MeridianR just suggestion but I want  you to try this if you got time money to bother with it. Sometime if your not required to tank set yourself up like this Str 500+ Sta 500+ Int 500+ Wear a Bone clasped Girdle and Int Earring with Cinder Proc both proc for over 500 crit 700 range they go of everytime you cast a spell. Spec your AA Agi 4/5/8 Sta 4/4/8 Int 4/4/8/ Grab a Pike of Pain off broker. If your guild will let you set your group up with Dirge/Berserker/Fury/Illusionist/Bruiser/Paladin. With new EoF should even improve this cause Stats will pass 700 in STR/STA/INT. Master 1 on all your AOE and most other. Cast your horse before you enter zone you loose it first time you die but till then nice bonus to auto attack till then. In multiple group pulls only do single target damage at first when healths down to 15% on first mob cut loose with all your AOE includeing taunts since they be procing for 1k-1400 each with Girdle and Earring. If you cant break 1500dps on the multiples somethings wrong. You only hit for 6-700 on singe targets but there are alot more Multiples around than singles. This dps goes out the window soon as you start having to heal/ward/rez. But if your keen and your guilds open minded try it. Have your tanking armor around just in case put all one suit on hotbar and rest on anouther. Biggest thing is dont try to be a tank try to be a dps and watch your agro cause you will get agro on the extra mobs if you cut loose to soon just like the wiz with fusion or the warlocks. Your aoe dont do near the damage but by the time you let loose 4-6 of them you will rise on hate list fast.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Are you serious?<BR><BR>I sure hope that with a group with a Dirge, Zerker, Fury, Illusionist and Bruiser I could break that dps you are talking about....LOL<BR><BR>Besides why bother getting over 1500 on AE fights if you only get 600 on single target....lol, as stated above give me a good group and I can easily zone wide parse over 1k (see that includes single and AE targets, and named) - but the fact of the matter is, plug in any dps class, or another Brawler and you just got way more dps.<BR><BR>BTW - All of my AE's are masters (with the exception of Doom Judgement), all my single target are Masters, all my buffs are masters....see a trend here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Just because with a picture perfect group setup (and lets be real that group up there would never happen, unless you guild lacks some dps) we can dps, doesn't mean the class is WAI (working as intended). <STRONG><EM> A Zerker or Guardian with Bucklet reversal (Stamina Line AA) can break 1k while tanking.....where we need the perfect group to do it.  <BR></EM></STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>i hate to break this to you .but i can break 1k dps while tanking with no stam line at all ...with dual wields tanking in def stance i can break 1300dps single target...warriors do not need double attack to break 1k dps while tanking..so by all means remove double attack from guards and zerkers ..ill still break 1k dps using a 1hander and a tower shield ..i think 1290 is my highest single target parse on a named using 1 hander and tower shield .... ive tanked labs / lyceum / hos and DT  the whole zone through dual wielding and was always parsing above 1k dps peaking at 1200 and max was 1350dps  and that was without the benifit of Tos and my shields block and avoid chance. so double attack to me means nothing guards dont need it and zerkers dont need it ...all the warriors that say they need it to hold aggro need to learn to play there class, plain and simple.</P> <P>one thing i will say ... we need the perfect group of hate buffers to maintain aggro where a pally does not.....you need dps buffing to perform the same level as a warrior ...seems fair to me ..until you factor in zerkers ..who imo are just broken atm ...tank as well as a guard and totally own all fighters on dps.<BR></P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> hawsecav19d wrote: <div>MeridianR just suggestion but I want  you to try this if you got time money to bother with it. Sometime if your not required to tank set yourself up like this Str 500+ Sta 500+ Int 500+ Wear a Bone clasped Girdle and Int Earring with Cinder Proc both proc for over 500 crit 700 range they go of everytime you cast a spell. Spec your AA Agi 4/5/8 Sta 4/4/8 Int 4/4/8/ Grab a Pike of Pain off broker. If your guild will let you set your group up with Dirge/Berserker/Fury/Illusionist/Bruiser/Paladin. With new EoF should even improve this cause Stats will pass 700 in STR/STA/INT. Master 1 on all your AOE and most other. Cast your horse before you enter zone you loose it first time you die but till then nice bonus to auto attack till then. In multiple group pulls only do single target damage at first when healths down to 15% on first mob cut loose with all your AOE includeing taunts since they be procing for 1k-1400 each with Girdle and Earring. If you cant break 1500dps on the multiples somethings wrong. You only hit for 6-700 on singe targets but there are alot more Multiples around than singles. This dps goes out the window soon as you start having to heal/ward/rez. But if your keen and your guilds open minded try it. Have your tanking armor around just in case put all one suit on hotbar and rest on anouther. Biggest thing is dont try to be a tank try to be a dps and watch your agro cause you will get agro on the extra mobs if you cut loose to soon just like the wiz with fusion or the warlocks. Your aoe dont do near the damage but by the time you let loose 4-6 of them you will rise on hate list fast.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Are you serious?I sure hope that with a group with a Dirge, Zerker, Fury, Illusionist and Bruiser I could break that dps you are talking about....LOLBesides why bother getting over 1500 on AE fights if you only get 600 on single target....lol, as stated above give me a good group and I can easily zone wide parse over 1k (see that includes single and AE targets, and named) - but the fact of the matter is, plug in any dps class, or another Brawler and you just got way more dps.BTW - All of my AE's are masters (with the exception of Doom Judgement), all my single target are Masters, all my buffs are masters....see a trend here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Just because with a picture perfect group setup (and lets be real that group up there would never happen, unless you guild lacks some dps) we can dps, doesn't mean the class is WAI (working as intended). <strong><em> A Zerker or Guardian with Bucklet reversal (Stamina Line AA) can break 1k while tanking.....where we need the perfect group to do it.  </em></strong></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>i hate to break this to you .but i can break 1k dps while tanking with no stam line at all ...with dual wields tanking in def stance i can break 1300dps single target...warriors do not need double attack to break 1k dps while tanking..so by all means remove double attack from guards and zerkers ..ill still break 1k dps using a 1hander and a tower shield ..i think 1290 is my highest single target parse on a named using 1 hander and tower shield .... ive tanked labs / lyceum / hos and DT  the whole zone through dual wielding and was always parsing above 1k dps peaking at 1200 and max was 1350dps  and that was without the benifit of Tos and my shields block and avoid chance. so double attack to me means nothing guards dont need it and zerkers dont need it ...all the warriors that say they need it to hold aggro need to learn to play there class, plain and simple.</p> <p>one thing i will say ... we need the perfect group of hate buffers to maintain aggro where a pally does not.....you need dps buffing to perform the same level as a warrior ...seems fair to me ..until you factor in zerkers ..who imo are just broken atm ...tank as well as a guard and totally own all fighters on dps.</p><hr></blockquote>Regardless of what you can do and can't do, it is pretty funny that from your post you can clearly see the following:Guardians can tank better and put out more dps then Paladins while tankingZerkers can tank better and put out more dps then Paladins and Guardians while tanking.So yep, Paladins are working as intended right now......I don't care personally about what you can and can't do, I care about what my class can't do in comparison.  Since we can't Dual wield, we would need to use a 2h. and I can 100% guarantee you perfect group or not, that we can't break 1k while in defensive stance with a 2h and tanking whole zones.Maybe certain fights, but not zone wide at all....so again tell me we are fine.You also need to get off the Amends kick man, cause that seems to be your total justification for the disparity there is now.....which is false....but keep using that as your argument.</div>

[EasternKing]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheEasternKing wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hawsecav19d wrote:<BR> <DIV>MeridianR just suggestion but I want  you to try this if you got time money to bother with it. Sometime if your not required to tank set yourself up like this Str 500+ Sta 500+ Int 500+ Wear a Bone clasped Girdle and Int Earring with Cinder Proc both proc for over 500 crit 700 range they go of everytime you cast a spell. Spec your AA Agi 4/5/8 Sta 4/4/8 Int 4/4/8/ Grab a Pike of Pain off broker. If your guild will let you set your group up with Dirge/Berserker/Fury/Illusionist/Bruiser/Paladin. With new EoF should even improve this cause Stats will pass 700 in STR/STA/INT. Master 1 on all your AOE and most other. Cast your horse before you enter zone you loose it first time you die but till then nice bonus to auto attack till then. In multiple group pulls only do single target damage at first when healths down to 15% on first mob cut loose with all your AOE includeing taunts since they be procing for 1k-1400 each with Girdle and Earring. If you cant break 1500dps on the multiples somethings wrong. You only hit for 6-700 on singe targets but there are alot more Multiples around than singles. This dps goes out the window soon as you start having to heal/ward/rez. But if your keen and your guilds open minded try it. Have your tanking armor around just in case put all one suit on hotbar and rest on anouther. Biggest thing is dont try to be a tank try to be a dps and watch your agro cause you will get agro on the extra mobs if you cut loose to soon just like the wiz with fusion or the warlocks. Your aoe dont do near the damage but by the time you let loose 4-6 of them you will rise on hate list fast.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Are you serious?<BR><BR>I sure hope that with a group with a Dirge, Zerker, Fury, Illusionist and Bruiser I could break that dps you are talking about....LOL<BR><BR>Besides why bother getting over 1500 on AE fights if you only get 600 on single target....lol, as stated above give me a good group and I can easily zone wide parse over 1k (see that includes single and AE targets, and named) - but the fact of the matter is, plug in any dps class, or another Brawler and you just got way more dps.<BR><BR>BTW - All of my AE's are masters (with the exception of Doom Judgement), all my single target are Masters, all my buffs are masters....see a trend here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Just because with a picture perfect group setup (and lets be real that group up there would never happen, unless you guild lacks some dps) we can dps, doesn't mean the class is WAI (working as intended). <STRONG><EM> A Zerker or Guardian with Bucklet reversal (Stamina Line AA) can break 1k while tanking.....where we need the perfect group to do it.  <BR></EM></STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>i hate to break this to you .but i can break 1k dps while tanking with no stam line at all ...with dual wields tanking in def stance i can break 1300dps single target...warriors do not need double attack to break 1k dps while tanking..so by all means remove double attack from guards and zerkers ..ill still break 1k dps using a 1hander and a tower shield ..i think 1290 is my highest single target parse on a named using 1 hander and tower shield .... ive tanked labs / lyceum / hos and DT  the whole zone through dual wielding and was always parsing above 1k dps peaking at 1200 and max was 1350dps  and that was without the benifit of Tos and my shields block and avoid chance. so double attack to me means nothing guards dont need it and zerkers dont need it ...all the warriors that say they need it to hold aggro need to learn to play there class, plain and simple.</P> <P>one thing i will say ... we need the perfect group of hate buffers to maintain aggro where a pally does not.....you need dps buffing to perform the same level as a warrior ...seems fair to me ..until you factor in zerkers ..who imo are just broken atm ...tank as well as a guard and totally own all fighters on dps.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Regardless of what you can do and can't do, it is pretty funny that from your post you can clearly see the following:<BR><BR>Guardians can tank better and put out more dps then Paladins while tanking<BR>Zerkers can tank better and put out more dps then Paladins and Guardians while tanking.<BR><BR>So yep, Paladins are working as intended right now......<BR><BR>I don't care personally about what you can and can't do, I care about what my class can't do in comparison.  Since we can't Dual wield, we would need to use a 2h. and I can 100% guarantee you perfect group or not, that we can't break 1k while in defensive stance with a 2h and tanking whole zones.<BR><BR>Maybe certain fights, but not zone wide at all....so again tell me we are fine.<BR><BR>You also need to get off the Amends kick man, cause that seems to be your total justification for the disparity there is now.....which is false....but keep using that as your argument.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nah Phov i think you misunderstood the point of my post....i agree that pallys are not in the same class as warriors ..im not arguing that ..i was simply pointing out that removing double attack from warriors is not going to narrow the gap that exsists. like ive stated elsewhere i think double attack is overpowered.</P> <P>one thing i will say now though with the dimishing returns on miti ...i got rid of my miti ..aa's and most of my miti jewlery and went a max hps build im sitting at about 5.8k with a healer buffing my miti which is about 63-64% absorb ... the diff between crusaders and warriors is now so tiny to be none exsistant ....</P> <P>and im not on a amends trip for justification ..on tarinax we used 2 tank groups for a long time ....coercer on me +hate +dps ..same for my co leader who plays a pally ...without him using amends aggro would ping pong between us on most fights ...when he put amends on ..the only way i could get aggro back was by using rescue / reinforcement ..and only then for about 20secs and hed have aggro locked on him again. so no im not saying amends is the best thing since sliced bread and you guys dont need anyloving cos u have it..... but it is a superb skill and id give my right arm for an equivalent for my guardian ... just like there are lots of pallys who want guard abilites etc etc.</P> <P>i think youll find the gaps that were there pre EoF have just been shrunken down by a large margin....and i feel your pain on crappy AA's guards suck as well ....lazy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] soe devs always taking the easy way out.</P> <P>one thing i will add is ive read an aweful lot of paladin threads ...where they have been asking for heals and wards to mean more and be more effective ..it seems to me that they have made heals and wards more effective /shrug</P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>TheEasternKing wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> TheEasternKing wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> hawsecav19d wrote: <div>MeridianR just suggestion but I want  you to try this if you got time money to bother with it. Sometime if your not required to tank set yourself up like this Str 500+ Sta 500+ Int 500+ Wear a Bone clasped Girdle and Int Earring with Cinder Proc both proc for over 500 crit 700 range they go of everytime you cast a spell. Spec your AA Agi 4/5/8 Sta 4/4/8 Int 4/4/8/ Grab a Pike of Pain off broker. If your guild will let you set your group up with Dirge/Berserker/Fury/Illusionist/Bruiser/Paladin. With new EoF should even improve this cause Stats will pass 700 in STR/STA/INT. Master 1 on all your AOE and most other. Cast your horse before you enter zone you loose it first time you die but till then nice bonus to auto attack till then. In multiple group pulls only do single target damage at first when healths down to 15% on first mob cut loose with all your AOE includeing taunts since they be procing for 1k-1400 each with Girdle and Earring. If you cant break 1500dps on the multiples somethings wrong. You only hit for 6-700 on singe targets but there are alot more Multiples around than singles. This dps goes out the window soon as you start having to heal/ward/rez. But if your keen and your guilds open minded try it. Have your tanking armor around just in case put all one suit on hotbar and rest on anouther. Biggest thing is dont try to be a tank try to be a dps and watch your agro cause you will get agro on the extra mobs if you cut loose to soon just like the wiz with fusion or the warlocks. Your aoe dont do near the damage but by the time you let loose 4-6 of them you will rise on hate list fast.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Are you serious?I sure hope that with a group with a Dirge, Zerker, Fury, Illusionist and Bruiser I could break that dps you are talking about....LOLBesides why bother getting over 1500 on AE fights if you only get 600 on single target....lol, as stated above give me a good group and I can easily zone wide parse over 1k (see that includes single and AE targets, and named) - but the fact of the matter is, plug in any dps class, or another Brawler and you just got way more dps.BTW - All of my AE's are masters (with the exception of Doom Judgement), all my single target are Masters, all my buffs are masters....see a trend here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Just because with a picture perfect group setup (and lets be real that group up there would never happen, unless you guild lacks some dps) we can dps, doesn't mean the class is WAI (working as intended). <strong><em> A Zerker or Guardian with Bucklet reversal (Stamina Line AA) can break 1k while tanking.....where we need the perfect group to do it.  </em></strong></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>i hate to break this to you .but i can break 1k dps while tanking with no stam line at all ...with dual wields tanking in def stance i can break 1300dps single target...warriors do not need double attack to break 1k dps while tanking..so by all means remove double attack from guards and zerkers ..ill still break 1k dps using a 1hander and a tower shield ..i think 1290 is my highest single target parse on a named using 1 hander and tower shield .... ive tanked labs / lyceum / hos and DT  the whole zone through dual wielding and was always parsing above 1k dps peaking at 1200 and max was 1350dps  and that was without the benifit of Tos and my shields block and avoid chance. so double attack to me means nothing guards dont need it and zerkers dont need it ...all the warriors that say they need it to hold aggro need to learn to play there class, plain and simple.</p> <p>one thing i will say ... we need the perfect group of hate buffers to maintain aggro where a pally does not.....you need dps buffing to perform the same level as a warrior ...seems fair to me ..until you factor in zerkers ..who imo are just broken atm ...tank as well as a guard and totally own all fighters on dps.</p> <hr> </blockquote>Regardless of what you can do and can't do, it is pretty funny that from your post you can clearly see the following:Guardians can tank better and put out more dps then Paladins while tankingZerkers can tank better and put out more dps then Paladins and Guardians while tanking.So yep, Paladins are working as intended right now......I don't care personally about what you can and can't do, I care about what my class can't do in comparison.  Since we can't Dual wield, we would need to use a 2h. and I can 100% guarantee you perfect group or not, that we can't break 1k while in defensive stance with a 2h and tanking whole zones.Maybe certain fights, but not zone wide at all....so again tell me we are fine.You also need to get off the Amends kick man, cause that seems to be your total justification for the disparity there is now.....which is false....but keep using that as your argument.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Nah Phov i think you misunderstood the point of my post....i agree that pallys are not in the same class as warriors ..im not arguing that ..i was simply pointing out that removing double attack from warriors is not going to narrow the gap that exsists. like ive stated elsewhere i think double attack is overpowered.</p><font color="#ffff00">I will admit I did misunderstand you then <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font> <p>one thing i will say now though with the dimishing returns on miti ...i got rid of my miti ..aa's and most of my miti jewlery and went a max hps build im sitting at about 5.8k with a healer buffing my miti which is about 63-64% absorb ... the diff between crusaders and warriors is now so tiny to be none exsistant ....</p><font color="#ffff00">The big difference though is avoidance right now.... from my initial testing I knew the mitigation changes (tested with seeing what the % was at with and without unshakeable, and then again with and without having Pledge of Armament on a Guardian) weren't going to be that major come EoF.....but we are missing a lot of avoidance due to having no seperate Defense buff, and no +parry in our defensive stance....</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Of course we won't know truly how much the avoidance means til a couple weeks down the road, but from initial testing, and the inability for Paladins to hit the Parry cap even with a Dirge, I think it might be fairly big.</font> <p>and im not on a amends trip for justification ..on tarinax we used 2 tank groups for a long time ....coercer on me +hate +dps ..same for my co leader who plays a pally ...without him using amends aggro would ping pong between us on most fights ...when he put amends on ..the only way i could get aggro back was by using rescue / reinforcement ..and only then for about 20secs and hed have aggro locked on him again. so no im not saying amends is the best thing since sliced bread and you guys dont need anyloving cos u have it..... but it is a superb skill and id give my right arm for an equivalent for my guardian ... just like there are lots of pallys who want guard abilites etc etc.</p><p><font color="#ffff00">I am in agreement here that on Tarinax, I used to tank it with one of our Guardians all the time, normally with throwing Amends on a Brigand due to Amazing reflexs and getting constant hate from them.......but basing it on one mem wiping mob isn't total justification.  Since in a normal OT/MT group it's hard (especially now with the need for max HP, avoid, stats, and resists) to find a target for it.  Normally I used to love putting it on a Bruiser <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p> <p>i think youll find the gaps that were there pre EoF have just been shrunken down by a large margin....and i feel your pain on crappy AA's guards suck as well ....lazy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] soe devs always taking the easy way out.</p><font color="#ffff00">Yeah the Guardian AA's from looking at them, aren't that great either.  Personally I would rather put another 50 into my class AAs, since I don't think the subclass ones' are that big a benefit at all.</font><p></p>one thing i will add is ive read an aweful lot of paladin threads ...where they have been asking for heals and wards to mean more and be more effective ..it seems to me that they have made heals and wards more effective /shrug<font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">I have to see how this plays out....the casting time on all our heals and wards are a big negative when tanking in a raid setting due to interrupts...and now with that WoW like recast thing, I have to see exactly how it plays out.</font><hr></blockquote></div>

[EasternKing]

<P>well servers are down atm ..if i remember correctly solo with the max ranks in the int + to parry im sitting at about 51.5% avoid, raid buffed im hitting 61.3% ..that used to be 69% with the exact same buffers.</P> <P>what is the new cap for def / parry now ? i heard around 520, i could be wrong here but even with my own +14 parry from my self buff and a dirge im still only hitting 413 parry ..well below the cap where as before i used to be over it. so again i think the gaps between raid buffed warriors and crusaders will have shrunken again to about a 6% gap where before it was 15% or so.</P> <P>and yeah saying no more fizzles then coding that auto recast crap in was very underhanded..guess its to powerful being able to cast a spell first time ;p</P>

[MeridianR]

I believe the new cap is 455 maybe?  The new skill caps I am pretty certain are 6.5 * Level, so 70 * 6.5 = 455<span>The auto recast stuff though is a kick in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]....I guess we can all debate it for now, but in a couple weeks we will find out what it is really going to be like.</span><div></div>

[hawsecav19d]

<P>Maybe its because I haven't been playing long enough to know any better "first character to 70/50  6 months played.". But I thought that group setup was the basis for all dps doesnt matter your class if you dont have right people to compliment you then you will never max your dps. I wasnt saying that 1500 dps was what you would get what I said was that if you couldnt get 1500dps on group mobs something was wrong, that means 1500dps should be the lowest you would be getting sorry if I didnt make that clearer. The other reason I didnt include Gar/Ber/Mnk/Bru is that they dont have as many reasons to have hi int thats produced with this group, granted in hindsight I should have said SK since they have as many spells as us.</P> <P> I am not near geared like I want to be just few fabled pieces mostly legendary and mostly Master1 spells thats where my money been going. But I am talking about people I have grouped with that have better equipment than me maybe not as many master 1s but for most part alot better equipment and I am beating them on the Parses are you telling me that by the time I match them in armor and weapons that I am going to get worse on dps? I been in groups in instances with Berserker/gaurdian with dirge gaining them hate and they cant keep the 2-4th mobs in the group from coming after me when I cut loose with AOEs maybe thats cutting down on thier reverse buckler line where they would be gaining more dps but as it stands they cant keep me from getting agro thru pure damage I dont taunt. What ever one they are on sticks to them but extra turn to me half to 3/4th of time.</P> <P>Maybe a year from now after raiding more I will see that I am doing something wrong or that people I fight with are but I just saying what I see right now. I dont get ideal groups either we only got 2 dirges in guild but most time my riad group is OT group with Berserker as OT me Pledgeing him Fury Necro Mystic Illus and I dont get to cut loose but about half time cause I help to keep him alive with Heals Wards and Intercepts we only done Labs and Temple of Scale and Zone on fear tainted island TT.  I still come in 5-8 on dps parces and usually 50% of top healers amount healed. I cant understand why I would get worse from here on but if you all say so I aint got much to look forward to then.</P>