We CAN'T have mitigation like gardians. Never ever.

[Goejun]

Get over it. Paladins will always have its mitigation behind gardians because we have heals and wards that are supposed to "compensate" it. That's the way Paladin works. And we had the same mitigations has them we would be much much better tanks than them.So the problem is not that we are behind in mitigation but that our heals and wards don't really compensate well because:- they are too slow to cast- they can be interupted much too easily (worse when there is several mobs).- they consume too much power (meaning than we can easily lose them at the end of the fight while the gardians always have their mitigation ready).- they can't be casted on the run (meaning that we are weaker tanks each time we have to do a run to somewhere or sometimes for a long pull).You don't trust me that our heal and wards are the key ? Check AA of KOS and EOF ...<div></div>

[Clailmebe]

<P>hm i agree on this, hopfully some time down the road they'll buff up on our heals/wards and such. Only problem I see is that if they do, healers will become just a little less important, as it is now pallies can already keep a group alive with their heals.</P> <P>We'll get fixed in time =)</P>

[Fellindar]

/agree, our wards and heals should be much harder to interupt. I also agree that although we cant have the same constant mitigation that guardians have it would be quite nice if our wards had a mitigation bonus while active.<div></div>

[QuaiCon]

<div><blockquote><hr>Fellindar wrote:/agree, our wards and heals should be much harder to interupt. I also agree that although we cant have the same constant mitigation that guardians have it would be quite nice if our wards had a mitigation bonus while active.<div></div><hr></blockquote>that sounds like an idea, the only problem against hard mobs is that a 1300 points ward gets consumed in first hit. maybe it would be more usefull if our wards would have a short (~10 sec) mit buff after they are comsumed. So against normal mobs this won't make a big difference and raidmobs will cut through our ward very fast so we get the short mit buff in while we wait for recast timer of ward.</div>

[Rast]

<P>I have no problem with the wards being cut though so fast because we would absorb that damage completely while a guard would still take some.  The issue (as has been stated before) is that using these while tanking is near impossible so we can NOT use these abilities effectively and thus are being locked out of tanking because of it.  And from the sounds of it (I'm not in beta) interupts are going to get much worse than they are now.</P> <P>Last I checked, mitigation couldn't be interupted, yet our wards can.  Yet these two things are supposed to be the balancing item between us.</P> <P>so to this I say.  Make our heals and wards Instacast and eliminate interupts.  It doesn't give us anything we don't have now but allows us to use our tools to the fullest and reinacts what is supposed to be the balance between us and the guardians as tanks.</P>

[Boli32]

<div><blockquote><hr>Raston wrote:<div></div> <p>I have no problem with the wards being cut though so fast because we would absorb that damage completely while a guard would still take some.  The issue (as has been stated before) is that using these while tanking is near impossible so we can NOT use these abilities effectively and thus are being locked out of tanking because of it.  And from the sounds of it (I'm not in beta) interupts are going to get much worse than they are now.</p> <p>Last I checked, mitigation couldn't be interupted, yet our wards can.  Yet these two things are supposed to be the balancing item between us.</p> <p>so to this I say.  <font color="#ffff00">Make our heals and wards Instacast and eliminate interupts.</font>  It doesn't give us anything we don't have now but allows us to use our tools to the fullest and reinacts what is supposed to be the balance between us and the guardians as tanks.</p><hr></blockquote>They'll never ever do that.... it will makes Paladin's too powerful in PvP.Realistically a ward is cast upon ourselves before we pull a mob and useless in combat itself, if we can't realiably cast it then we should have other means to make up the difference.</div>

[Rast]

Well, I don't give a rats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about PvP and no decisions about classes should be based on PvP (as was promised when that introduced that PoS system).

[Mgunner]

<P>lowering recast and interrupts would be nice. It would sure go a long way to improving our tanking abilities. Oh, and PvP is on a different ruleset anways.</P> <P>However, to compensate our ability by giving us heals and wards is just crappy anyways. That's why we have clerics.</P>

[Anzak]

Because of the importance of mitigation vs raid mobs, our heals and wards are not nearly as effective at reducing damage as a guardian's temp mit buffs.  Simply put our base mitigation should be slightly higher than a guards to compensate for that.  Now with EoF and demished returns on Mit I don't know how this will play out so will have to see how important mit is starting tomorrow.<div></div>

[Brigh]

<P>Give us back the original casting time of the ward way back when I say.</P> <P>Another idea is give the hp buff a regening ward even if it is just like 300hp max level. That would give a mitigation every so often as it regens. Perhaps if they rework the EOF tree they can make it so that this ward must be obtained from the tree and added to the hp buff.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Immuen]

<P>  Idea that came to thought, shamans have wards right.  they made it so they cast it a target it continues to keep procing without a recast.  there is no interrupt involved with and no recast unless death or canceled....</P> <P>  since the push for Paladins being a healer make our ward the same.  food for thought</P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>It is a fairly simple solution on our heals/wards, make them combat arts instead of spells.  With a .5 sec or 1 sec cast time on them with the same recast as they are now and being able to cast on the run as other combat arts are now, we would greatly reduce the interrupts we have in our heals/wards.  You say there is no examples of this in the game?  Look at the mend ability of the monk/bruiser and ask them if it is a combat art or spell.  If you keep the spell cost/recast similar to a healer there is no issue, you just make it to where we can actually use the spells given to us to actually tank more effectively.  I played the live event lately that places you in the body of a EQ1 ranger and was aquinted with a heal that was a combat art and allowed me to cast on the run with a quick casting time.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They originally changed the casting time on our ward because of the popular tactic of warding while training thru mobs in zones.  That tactic is pretty much outdated to the vast amounts of roots, stuns, snares that mobs employ and should be looked at again.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Others say that this sounds like a extreme change calling for a revamp on paladins, to my mind it is something they should have done a long time ago.  Devs tell us we are tanks with heals and wards and yet make us healers with some tanking abilities and those rellying on the spell restrictions.  I have no problem having my ranged spells and aoes classified as spells, but my survival heals and wards should really be combat arts.  A long time ago a wise paladin mentioned this and i ignored it pretty much, after all the observations since and the way our AA and spells have matured, i think this is the way we should go as a class.</DIV>

[Mgunner]

<DIV>Changing it to a CA would make to much sense. Hard to heal and ward yourself when trying to position yourself on pull, which as any raider knows, is 80% of the fight. </DIV>

[Immuen]

  far as my understanding CAs are combat abilities.  So combat for fighters comes from melee.  A brawler uses CA to do crazy attack by use of insane CA, or Guard uses awesome block from best CA.  Paladins using both CAs and magic=spells.  Changing something that comes from magic to CA isn't ideal comes against the nature of things.  Priests cast their magic thru spells, mages cast magic thru spells, but you won't see a CA book in their knowledge book.  Wards are magic, heals are magic and making them CAs will never happen.  Changing timers is best that can be done.

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Immuen wrote:<BR>   far as my understanding CAs are combat abilities.  So combat for fighters comes from melee.  A brawler uses CA to do crazy attack by use of insane CA, or Guard uses awesome block from best CA.  Paladins using both CAs and magic=spells.  Changing something that comes from magic to CA isn't ideal comes against the nature of things.  Priests cast their magic thru spells, mages cast magic thru spells, but you won't see a CA book in their knowledge book.  Wards are magic, heals are magic and making them CAs will never happen.  Changing timers is best that can be done.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is a very narrow minded view on things, by your very measure, any AOE that a berserker does should be considered a SPELL being as he is using magic to do damage, not a melee assisted ability, same thing for monks,bruisers, guardians and so on.  I find it funny that is ok for combat art classes only to have abilities that do similar things as our spells but is ok to call it a combat art but have a spell we have change to a combat art and it is considered not natural.  If you would like i can start posting other fighter class combat arts compared to some of our "spells" and see how much a difference they are.  </P> <P>We will still have spells we have to cast, our damage range spells, our AOE spells and a few others that will be classified as spells, but i see no reason at all why a unique class like a paladin could not have their divine heals and wards treated as a combat art.  How much of the heals and wards are interrupted because we are moved by a enemy knockback/knockdown versus just a straight interrupt?  How often would they be interrupted if the cast time was .5 sec versus 2-3 sec as it is now.  The Devs say we have heals and wards to compensate for mitigation and other survival tools, but they make those said abilities the same as classes that normally are not agroing the mobs(healers).</P> <P>If some think is overpowered, they can easily state that if target is self, treat it as a comabt art and if not treat it as a spell.  Of course that type of checking would be alot of overhead.  If they keep the power cost and recast along the same lines as before this just allows our power hungry heals and wards to be actually utillized more effectively instead of chain interrupted.<BR></P>

[Immuen]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OrcSlayer96 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Immuen wrote:<BR>  far as my understanding CAs are combat abilities.  So combat for fighters comes from melee.  A brawler uses CA to do crazy attack by use of insane CA, or Guard uses awesome block from best CA.  Paladins using both CAs and magic=spells.  Changing something that comes from magic to CA isn't ideal comes against the nature of things.  Priests cast their magic thru spells, mages cast magic thru spells, but you won't see a CA book in their knowledge book.  Wards are magic, heals are magic and making them CAs will never happen.  Changing timers is best that can be done.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM><STRONG><FONT face=Verdana>That is a very narrow minded view on things, by your very measure, any AOE that a berserker does should be considered a SPELL being as he is using magic to do damage, not a melee assisted ability, same thing for monks,bruisers, guardians and so on</FONT>.</STRONG></EM>  I find it funny that is ok for combat art classes only to have abilities that do similar things as our spells but is ok to call it a combat art but have a spell we have change to a combat art and it is considered not natural.  If you would like i can start posting other fighter class combat arts compared to some of our "spells" and see how much a difference they are. </P> <P><FONT size=4>There is no narrowed minded about it.  Show me a Berserker doing magic?  Not all AoEs aren't magic based.  Holy Circle anyone?  If there is a case of other fighters doing magic with there CAs then something is wrong and I am not aware of it.  Again show me what they call "pure class" doing something outside their class.  Templar doing CAs or a Zerker doing magic.</FONT></P> <P>We will still have spells we have to cast, our damage range spells, our AOE spells and a few others that will be classified as spells, but i see no reason at all why a unique class like a paladin could not have their divine heals and wards treated as a <FONT size=5>combat art.</FONT>  How much of the heals and wards are interrupted because we are moved by a enemy knockback/knockdown versus just a straight interrupt?  How often would they be interrupted if the cast time was .5 sec versus 2-3 sec as it is now.  The Devs say we have heals and wards to compensate for mitigation and other survival tools, but they make those said abilities the same as classes that normally are not agroing the mobs(healers).</P> <P>Combat art refers to melee style not magic!  Wards and heals are <FONT size=5>magic.  </FONT><FONT size=3>Interrupts make MT and using magic difficult to a point of almost being worthless IMO.  If your not tanking the interrupts are almost never there.  Changing timers IMO would fix that.  Paladin magic is based from Priest magic.  How many Priests have AoEs? and how many of them?</FONT></P> <P>If some think is overpowered, they can easily state that if target is self, treat it as a comabt art and if not treat it as a spell.  Of course that type of checking would be alot of overhead.  If they keep the power cost and recast along the same lines as before this just allows our power hungry heals and wards to be actually utillized more effectively instead of chain interrupted.</P> <P> Ward as is atm is group or raid just like shamans but without the cool way theirs work.  Ward is magic comes the priest magic so can't be a CA and is already a spell.  Dunno what you mean by keeping it the same power and recast before.  Maybe pre LU13?<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  </DIV>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Immuen wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OrcSlayer96 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Immuen wrote:<BR>  far as my understanding CAs are combat abilities.  So combat for fighters comes from melee.  A brawler uses CA to do crazy attack by use of insane CA, or Guard uses awesome block from best CA.  Paladins using both CAs and magic=spells.  Changing something that comes from magic to CA isn't ideal comes against the nature of things.  Priests cast their magic thru spells, mages cast magic thru spells, but you won't see a CA book in their knowledge book.  Wards are magic, heals are magic and making them CAs will never happen.  Changing timers is best that can be done.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><EM><STRONG><FONT face=Verdana>That is a very narrow minded view on things, by your very measure, any AOE that a berserker does should be considered a SPELL being as he is using magic to do damage, not a melee assisted ability, same thing for monks,bruisers, guardians and so on</FONT>.</STRONG></EM>  I find it funny that is ok for combat art classes only to have abilities that do similar things as our spells but is ok to call it a combat art but have a spell we have change to a combat art and it is considered not natural.  If you would like i can start posting other fighter class combat arts compared to some of our "spells" and see how much a difference they are. </P> <P><FONT size=4>There is no narrowed minded about it.  Show me a Berserker doing magic?  Not all AoEs aren't magic based.  Holy Circle anyone?  If there is a case of other fighters doing magic with there CAs then something is wrong and I am not aware of it.  Again show me what they call "pure class" doing something outside their class.  Templar doing CAs or a Zerker doing magic.</FONT></P> <P>We will still have spells we have to cast, our damage range spells, our AOE spells and a few others that will be classified as spells, but i see no reason at all why a unique class like a paladin could not have their divine heals and wards treated as a <FONT size=5>combat art.</FONT>  How much of the heals and wards are interrupted because we are moved by a enemy knockback/knockdown versus just a straight interrupt?  How often would they be interrupted if the cast time was .5 sec versus 2-3 sec as it is now.  The Devs say we have heals and wards to compensate for mitigation and other survival tools, but they make those said abilities the same as classes that normally are not agroing the mobs(healers).</P> <P>Combat art refers to melee style not magic!  Wards and heals are <FONT size=5>magic.  </FONT><FONT size=3>Interrupts make MT and using magic difficult to a point of almost being worthless IMO.  If your not tanking the interrupts are almost never there.  Changing timers IMO would fix that.  Paladin magic is based from Priest magic.  How many Priests have AoEs? and how many of them?</FONT></P> <P>If some think is overpowered, they can easily state that if target is self, treat it as a comabt art and if not treat it as a spell.  Of course that type of checking would be alot of overhead.  If they keep the power cost and recast along the same lines as before this just allows our power hungry heals and wards to be actually utillized more effectively instead of chain interrupted.</P> <P> Ward as is atm is group or raid just like shamans but without the cool way theirs work.  Ward is magic comes the priest magic so can't be a CA and is already a spell.  Dunno what you mean by keeping it the same power and recast before.  Maybe pre LU13?<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think it is time you became aware of it then:</P> <P>Monk: </P> <P>aITEM -1598289432 226968994<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />ragonbreath (Master I)/a Fire AOE no physical damage combat art</P> <P>aITEM -1543940130 -763387612:Soaring Dragon (Master I)/a Heat DOT</P> <P>aITEM 297452239 -1040045917:Crescent Strike (Adept I)/a Magic AOE</P> <P>aITEM 180328534 -324655935:Frozen Palm (Adept I)/a Cold Damage attack</P> <P>aITEM 562219307 534078340:Arctic Talon (Master I)/a Cold Damage Attack</P> <P>aITEM -2029915356 -1435386283:Outward Calm (Master I)/a A self ward that is a combat art, hmmm imagine that...</P> <P>aITEM -1304881899 -1274789895:Heal (Master I)/a a percentage based heal on 3 minute timer that is a combat art</P> <P>Bruiser:</P> <P>aITEM -1338942685 1337448784:Blazing Lunge (Master I)/a Heat attack DOT</P> <P>aITEM 406874963 1720942376:Meteor Fist (Master I)/a Large Heat damage attack</P> <P>aITEM 1628136985 -402404324:Storming Fists (Master I)/a Magic proccing attack</P> <P>aITEM -1149817834 721310835:Stone Deaf/a another combat art ward like ability</P> <P>aITEM 517185596 1464725721:Ignore Agony (Master I)/a a self only heal that is a combat art</P> <P>I will concede that guardian and berserker stick to the slashing/piercing/crushing damage on their combat arts and except for a few spells that have odd procs like the sentry watch heal they seem inline, but i completely disagee with your assessment that combat arts are only slashing/crushing/piercing.</P> <P>If according to the devs it is fine to have combat arts that use heat, cold, magic and divine on these two classes above, then it certainly is not unnatural to see that in our paladin.  I am not asking for any change in bruiser or monk classes but use their abilities as a example of 2 other FIGHTER classes that have spell like combat arts.  Change the name on ignore agony to our aITEM 2037480292 1003322938:Reverent Sacrament (Master I)/a and maybe it becomes clearer to you why i think are heals and wards should be changed to combat arts.</P>

[MeridianR]

Changing spells (like our heals) to CA isn't out of the realm of possibilities.......AA's in EoF change a couple classes 'spells' (mostly dps I know) to Combat Arts as it is now.<div></div>

[Kule]

Some nice ideas folks. Just remember, guards without the WIS line have no inherent mitigation lead. I also got the feeling with the change of how little MIT means once you get so high, the value of other AA's will start to look real nice. <div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kuleon wrote:<BR>Some nice ideas folks. Just remember, guards without the WIS line have no inherent mitigation lead.<BR>I also got the feeling with the change of how little MIT means once you get so high, the value of other AA's will start to look real nice.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>From what i am seeing the mitigation issue is looking better with the expansion, which leaves us to how effective our abilities are to content.  Since day one it has bothered me that the fundamental abilities that sustain us as a tank prohibit us from being as effective as we can when tanking.  If you look at all the classes, there is no "Pure" thing about them, there is some abilities that are classified as combat arts that becasue of the class become labeled as spells and vice versa.  I have been told countless times that my class is a hybrid class with bits of both archtypes of fighter and healer.  Instead of choosing the worse parts of that hybrid nature i say we use the best parts.  If a brawler enjoys a 30% heal that is either a self heal or a cast on a friend heal and it is labeled as a combat art, why not another class in the fighter archtype?  The advantage still goes to the warrior for the fact that our survival abilities will drain power much quicker than a cast and go mit buff or some of the other damage absorbers they may have.  That too i can live with as long as i can use my heals/wards without fear of any movement on my part interrupting the ability or waiting 2-3 seconds while it goes off.</P> <P>This along with changing our combat arts/spells that do divine damge to do double damage to undead would solidify us a class that has abilities similar to others but our own unique flavor.  We would be no templer lite on undead but a power of our own, making us a valuable asset on undead fights.<BR></P>

[Kule]

That's cool man, I didn't mean to protrude, I like reading other class boards sometimes so I'm blind to the issues at hand.I just wanted to comment on the mitigation comment that started this thread. <span>:smileyhappy:</span>Yall have some good ideas, I'm actually kind of jealous of the new pally AA's. <span>:smileywink:</span>Have a good one.<div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kuleon wrote:<BR>That's cool man, I didn't mean to protrude, I like reading other class boards sometimes so I'm blind to the issues at hand.<BR>I just wanted to comment on the mitigation comment that started this thread. <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN><BR>Yall have some good ideas, I'm actually kind of jealous of the new pally AA's. <SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN><BR>Have a good one.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Np bud always welcome on the boards, you will find i don't kill the messenger...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Madbiker]

Lack of mit bothers me alot less then lack of base defense and especially parry skill of guards

[EvilIguana9]

The label of spell or combat art means very little other than what part of the knowledge book it sits in.  CAs can work like spells (stand still, long cast time) and spells can work like CAs (can move, short cast).  A lot of people are saying shorten the cast times of our spells, and I can certainly go along with that.  I still think that they should take longer to cast than the average combat art and require standing still for the cast, but anything to make them harder to interupt in combat would be good.  A 1 second cast time would be reasonable IMO, differentiates them from warrior-style combat arts but makes them much harder to interupt.  Could also go so far as to make it so that, like most CAs, they are not interuptible by damage, only by stun and stifle effects.  <div></div>