Why is paladin a hybrid?

[GreyDog]

<DIV>Hi guys, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ive been seeing a lot of negative stuff about us pallys these days, and one thing ive noticed in the replies from non-plate tanks on paladin issues is: "paladins are hybrids, you shouldnt tank as well as guardians".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now, leaving aside our various issues (of which there are many i feel) where did this perception come from that Paladins are hybrids? i remember when i rolled my Pally back when eq2 started there was nothing in the documentation that said i was a hybrid. i dont remember anything in any of the LU notes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont get me wrong, i understand that we can do some of the things a healer can do (ie direct and group heals) and we ostensibly are tanks, but does this make us intended to be "hybrids"? warriors can use bows (we cant, and fair enoguh) so are they part ranger? troubs can crowd control, are  they part coercer? templars can nuke are they part wizard?! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>is this just a perception that has been built over time? II think so and i think that it has done alot of damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>whilst we are percieved as a "hybrid" the arguments will always be put forward that we shouldn't expect to tank as well as so called "pure" tanks. this argument is used to a) justify inequities in tanking abilities; b)  counter possible enhancements to the class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i write this post hoping that others will join with me in attempting to crush this idea that a paladin is some part tank-part templar-part shaman, that should by default expect to perform any duty at a sub-par level. i say that paladins are tanks, they are intended to be tanks, and they always SHOULD be tanks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not healers, not dps, not "utlity", but frontline tanks. we just do the job differently to warriors. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as far as i see it, our ward and heals are the main difference between paladins and the current kings-of-plate, guardians. now the ward is a HP buff, so we should have lower HP than a guardian. i have no problem at all with that, since our style is not to have all the HP at once, but to be able to essentially "enhance" our HP pool with our ward. same result, different style. fantastic. now the heals, anyone who has been a front row tank knows that the heals are so hard to get off without interupts that they can not be considered effectively part of our HP pool in the same way that i just suggested Wards should be. Perhaps then, they could be considered an alternative form of generating agro? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im not sure which part of the guardian set up this would be equivalent too, but conceivably one of their taunts. sure, some work needs to be done on getting them to land, working out the maths of just how much hate they shoudl generate for how much power cost etc etc, but i can see how that is set up. if one looks at heals in this light, then we move away from seeing them as being part of our healer-lite traits and seeing them as tools to enhance our survivability and agro management in tanking situations. many folks have suggested using taunts as heals before, i dont claim this as an original idea or anything <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now where i am going with this is that our heals and wards, the parts of our character make up that seem to cause this awful Hybrid word to keep cropping up, need not be seen as healer traits at all. they are in fact just different methods of getting to the same result: tankage. there is nothing in either ability that says that warrior tanks should have higher mitigation or more power than paladins. both the ward and the heals, at best (assuming everythign works and isn't interupted etc etc) replace HP, they dont effect Mitigation or resists at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>please folks, let me know if im the only person out there who sees things this way. i despair for our class, and i want changes, but until we can refute this idea that we shouldnt be entitled to tank, we will never get what we need. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sincerely, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sanjji. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by GreyDog on <SPAN class=date_text>11-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:30 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by GreyDog on <SPAN class=date_text>11-12-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:32 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by GreyDog on <span class=date_text>11-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:11 AM</span>

[Clailmebe]

<DIV>I dont know to much about the paly situation with EoF coming out...i play one as well, but i belive that yes in a group pallies should be able to tank great, raids though i have to side with soe, that the guardians and zerksers should be the ones leading, thats why they fall in the warrior subclass, and we *previously?* fall in the crusaders.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, if one wanted to mt, i dont understand why they didnt roll a guardian. It seems from some posts that people want pallies to be a guardian with heals, but that would just make the guardian class useless. Nerf the heals, and we'd just be a guardian with flashier skills then. When I think of a pally in a raid, I see him supporting the tank with wards/heals, making sure the rest of the group is safe and grabbing any add that might come along and bringing it back to the mt. While yes a healer can ward/heal, they dont do dmg as well *right..?* so a pally brings both to a raid which i would <U>imagine</U> a raid group could use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally think that the advantage guardians and zerks have *or will have?* in tanking is a good thing, theirs no point in having all the classes able to do the same thing, just pushing diffrent buttons, tanking could be their advantage, ours could be working toghether with the tank and healers making it somewhat easier for them.</DIV> <DIV>Maybe its just the fact i dont mind not tanking once in awhile, so long as i have a role thats somehow contributed to the group, im having a blast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps the effects we see coming in EoF wont be as bad as we think, maybe we'll just have to develop new strategies, just have to wait and see, but i doubt pallies will be ignored, hopfully they'll give us somthing diffrent that seperates us from the other tanks and gives us more worth.</DIV>

[Daydeee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GreyDog wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hi guys, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ive been seeing a lot of negative stuff about us pallys these days, and one thing ive noticed in the replies from non-plate tanks on paladin issues is: "paladins are hybrids, you shouldnt tank as well as guardians".</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>EQ1 or Everquest Live...</P> <P>but there we could do cool stuff like stack holy forge and combat fury & slay undead for rediculous "make grown rogues cry" v undead mobs, be totally immune to fear, where it actually was an issue if you had to MT, and then summon the fastest horse going... we also had regenerating fast tick heals... could shield bash with a twohanded weapon.... Ah the glory days of tinting.</P> <P>Sersiously though, the idea of beserker is messed up, should never use a shield, only 2handed or duels tbh. So while we were supposed to be en par with gardians in tier and tanking after LU13, serkers stole in with killer dps plate armor mitigation etc etc etc.</P> <P>And as previously stated mitigation will always pwn healing.. healing is static and doesn't scale with dps dealt, mitigation will always stop a certain percentage, this is increasingly notable at higher dps dished out.... and why many people don't notice it in group/heroic content, dps dealt just isn't enough to show a disparity.</P> <P>Now if avoidance +25% works... it would be quite cool...  no more 20% block cap?<BR></P>

[Lairdragna]

Remember zerkers could only wear chain or lighter as well!<div></div>

[GreyDog]

<P>Thanks for replying guys, </P> <P>i think though that you may have missed my point. when i rolled my pally, the big thing in EQ2 was that all tankswould be able to tank. i see no reason why this should have changed. </P> <P>at first i can see why clailmebe would say that there would be "...no point in having all the classes able to do the same thing, just pushing diffrent buttons" but really, there is a point: the more folks that can do the job, the less reliance there is on having a particular class in that slot. if all tanks are free to MT then you have a range of classes available to you when putting together that raid/group. </P> <P>now, Clailmebe you said that when you see a paladin in a raid you see him/her in a suporting role. fair enoguh, you can do that if you like. but why only a supporting role? you arent a cleridan!</P> <P> </P> <P>sanjji</P>

[Faelgalad]

<P>The Hyrid Thing isn't mentioned anywhere, and it was certainly my vault that I believed the writings on the webpage and in the manual, so I rolled a Paladin. </P> <P>Sounded like the AD&D Paladin, less Damage, but more staying power in Defense, only inferior to the Guardian. Until I came to High End Instance and Raidplay in T7, I didn't recoginsed much difference. But it angers me, that I can't even try to be an MT, not by my skill as an player, by choice of the developers. </P> <P> </P> <P>And Supporting, why should a Raid take to a Paladin for Support? I mean, I lead a raid. I'am a Paladin. </P> <P>I would not take a second Paladin with us, and as soon as one of my other Chars is ready, he will go with the Raid. And for myself, Support is not enough for me, if I would like to support, I would roll a Priest or Bard. </P> <P>There are enough Guardians and Berserkers aviable that there is no need for an Paladin to tank. For Support, I would take a Coercer, Bard oder Priest. For filling one Figher per Group (for Heroic Opportunities), one Brawler for Damage and Special Skills and one Shadowknight for Damage is fitting and suitable for Loot Distribution. In our case a Berserker and Guardian share Maintank and Offtank. </P> <P> </P> <P>P.s. Neither in History nor in an fantasy novel, I have ever read from plate armored berserkers. btw <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>So a Berserker is a Hybrid, half Knight, half Berserker. </P> <P> </P>

[Immuen]

<P> EQ1</P> <P>Link to the classes</P> <P><A href="http://everquest.station.sony.com/" target=_blank>http://everquest.station.sony.com/</A></P> <P>Paladin</P> <P>Paladins are holy <U>warriors</U> who use blessed spells and strength of arms to fight the evil and undead of Norrath.  Paladins are <U>primarly a melee class</U>, <U>able to wear plate armor</U> and wield many kinds of weapons.</P> <P>paladins are able fighters and battlefield healers whose combat arts focus on stunning enemies and smiting undead.  They also <U>many spells that increase health and armor of their allies</U>.  Every so often, paladins can Lay of Hands on themselves or their friends to instantly grant a powerful heal.</P> <P>Berserker</P> <P>Berserkers are fearsome fighters that possess <U>inordinate</U> amounts of strength and bravery.  They lunge into battle <U>swinging large two handed axes</U> or <U>hurtling throwing weapons</U> at their prey.  <U>They carry huge axes because the damage they deal</U> and for the fear the weapons instill in the enemy.  As great as a <U>berserker's skill with two handed axe</U> is, his skill with <U>throwing weapons cannot be overlooked</U>.  As he becomes more powerful, he can infuse his rage into various throwing weapons, causing dire effects when they strike a foe.  With mastery of his innate rage, the berserker also gains the ability to become "berserk," a deadly state which causes great amount of damage as a berserker's blade swings with frenzy.</P> <P>INORDINATE</P> <P><A href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/inordinate" target=_blank>http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/inordinate</A></P> <P><STRONG>1</STRONG> <I>archaic</I> <B>: <A href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/disorderly" target=_blank><FONT size=-1>DISORDERLY</FONT></A>, <A href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/unregulated" target=_blank><FONT size=-1>UNREGULATED</FONT></A></B><BR><B>2</B> <B>:</B> exceeding reasonable limits <B>: <A href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/immoderate" target=_blank><FONT size=-1>IMMODERATE</FONT></A></B><BR><B>synonym</B> see <A href="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/excessive" target=_blank><FONT size=-1>EXCESSIVE</FONT></A> <BR></P> <P>From Ogaming</P> <P><A href="http://eq.ogaming.com/data/2337~Classes.php" target=_blank>http://eq.ogaming.com/data/2337~Classes.php</A></P> <P>Paladin</P> <P>Same as EQ1 except</P> <P>Paladins are the greatest force against undead. At higher levels they gain special abilities to smite these foes. Paladins also gain a limited ability to resurrect their fallen friends with lessened penalties for death.<BR><BR>Paladins can sometimes work alone, healing themselves with magic, but in a group a paladin really shines, going head to head with his enemies and <U>occasionally falling back to heal</U>. <U>Players who like to engage in melee fights</U> but <U>want the options spells provide</U> will find paladins a <U>great class to play</U>.<BR><BR>Berserker</P> <P>Same as EQ1 except</P> <P>As dangerous as berserkers are at these moments, they become more vulnerable to enemy attacks.<BR><BR>Berserkers do not fear death and they value speed and agility over personal defense. The berserker is at his best with a group of friends and adventurers that allow him to unleash his full anger on an enemy without interruption. When standing within arm's reach of his enemy, the berserker is one of the masters of offense, crippling and maiming with impressive speed and skill. And, in situations where an enemy must be fought at a distance, the berserker has the best throwing arm of any Norrathian<BR></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>In real world lore</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Paladin</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin" target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin</A></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>"<STRONG>Paladin</STRONG> as a word referring to a champion or warrior.. "</SPAN> <P>" ..were the highest administrative officers of the pope's household; with the growth of the temporal power of the popes they acquired great importance." <P><SPAN class=time_text>Berserker</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker" target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker</A></SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>"..men rushed forward without armor, were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were as strong as bears or wild bulls, and killed people at a blow, but neither fire nor iron told upon themselves."</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>"...frenzied and indomitable berserker and his bear-skin coat... "</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Immuen on <span class=date_text>11-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:25 PM</span>

[ChopStix]

they failed to mention that beserkers also used a mixture of herbs, basicly druging themselves, to make them go into this beserk state with abnormal strength and energy....

[Immuen]

yar, common know fact viking zerkers used to drug themselves

[RAYVEN2]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>GreyDog wrote:<div></div><p>Thanks for replying guys,</p><p>i think though that you may have missed my point. when i rolled my pally, the big thing in EQ2 was that all tankswould be able to tank. i see no reason why this should have changed.</p><p>at first i can see why clailmebe would say that there would be "...no point in having all the classes able to do the same thing, just pushing diffrent buttons" but really, there is a point: the more folks that can do the job, the less reliance there is on having a particular class in that slot. if all tanks are free to MT then you have a range of classes available to you when putting together that raid/group.</p><p>now, Clailmebe you said that when you see a paladin in a raid you see him/her in a suporting role. fair enoguh, you can do that if you like. but why only a supporting role? you arent a cleridan!</p><p>sanjji</p><hr></blockquote>Exactly!!  Agreed 100%.Immuen -  Why are you posting EQ1 class descriptions in the EQ2 Paladin forums?  EQ1 and EQ2 are "supposed" to be totally different games.  All tanks are supposed to be able to tank equally well in EQ2.  Subclasses are only supposed to add "flavor".  The whole concept was that there is not supposed to be ANY dependance on any one class.   4 flavors of healer was supposed to mean no more waiting around for a cleric to show up.  You have the choice of 4 other healer types who can do the job equally well but in different ways.   So if the Paladin can not tank as well as the Guardian then something is wrong.   A paladins heals and wards should allow him to do with magic what a guardian can do with mitigation.  Niether class is supposed be able to tank better than the other.  Both classes are supposed to do the same thing but they do it with different abilities.  The choice of class for your archtype is only supposed to be flavor on <b>4 </b>basic roles <b>fighter , mage, priest & scout.  </b>THIS WAS THE CONCEPT THAT ATTRACTED PEOPLE TO THIS GAME WHEN IT LAUNCHED.  THIS IS WHAT SOE PROMISED ITS PLAYERS.    <a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=165684"><span></span></a><div></div>

[Ember]

I agree with others in that when eq2 first started, they made a huge point of saying that all the fighter classes would be able to tank, they would just do it in different ways.People made the classes for different reasons.  I think mostly these reasons are for roleplay...  What kind of tank do you want to play?  Do you want to be a knight fighting for good against evil (kind of like Sturm Nightblade), do you want to be a strong arm or fighter with a simple fight style in mind (kind of like Caramon)?I don't think you should make your choices based on parses taken by people with different skills.  I think you should make your character based on what type of character you want to play.The think one of the problems for raids is that you only need one or two MTs.  Since the number is so small they decide to only allow one of the fighters classes to fill that role.  It's kind of sad, because then you only get people who want to play one style of character. Maybe there is no room for roleplayers in raids?

[Sonaht]

<div></div>I'm reading this thread trying to decide a class for my Fae, and just wanted to interject a point about raids and tanks. It's been my experience that the one of the reasons for the above happening is that so many raids are organized to be "safe" farming of epics. You go in, follow the ogaming cheats, MT stands in the pre-ordained position, takes all the damage while the MA stands in a similar position to assist and everyone else is at range lobbing whatever is appropriate and hoping they don't get AOE'd. Part of why I don't go raiding much anymore. I'd much rather be having fun than striving for the point where I'm brokering fabled gear. Right now my favorite characters are my Coercer and my Templar due to the fact that they are so flexible. I find it a lot more fun to be in a fluid and dangerous situation where my analysis of the situation at any given moment has an impact on the outcome of the fight, and I like a broad toolchest. Also when I go out I don't really care about competing with the members of my own team for parser stats, I love the interweaving of skills and the swift interactions and interdependencies of the group in much the same way I love the musical dialog of a great jazz session. That's what has me considering a Pally for my new girl.One word about Zerkers... my husband is one of the best I've ever played with and he's at his peak as the axe-wielding center of insane chaos.  It takes two healers to keep him on his feet, but it's never ever dull. By the time you catch your breath the room is empty. He seldom straps on a shield or goes into defensive mode, and our wizard loves it. I've noticed him lately in there jabbing mobs with his little dagger, confident that the Zerker is drawing so much hate that he can nuke in close and leave the chains at the door (provided he saves his big nuke for last.) A zerker can try to play Guard but he looses a lot in terms of speed and agro-building. As a healer I hate it when he's in defensive because it's too easy for him to loose control of the center and damage can start going all over the party. I also think the plate armor is a shortcut to the mitigation that would have to be built into the class, and agree that it would be cool if zerkers were more customizable in terms of trade-offs involving specialized potions and maybe AA's that required leather be equipped. I wouldn't take away the ability to wear plate as I see Zerker being a state of mind and style of fighting rather than an armor class. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sonaht on <span class=date_text>11-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:03 AM</span>

[joe2sgirl]

I love wikipedia <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Faelgalad]

<P>Under the assumed acceptance of being a hybrid class, I protest that many key abilities are missing in my Paladin. </P> <P>- Mana Regeneration</P> <P>- Charming</P> <P>- Reactive Heal</P> <P>- Stealth</P> <P>- Damage Nuke</P> <P>- Debuff</P> <P>After this, we incorporate the most basic abilities of the majority of all classes and make us Hybrids. </P> <P>So all Hybrid-Supporter, up on the barricades!! We are missing key-hybrid skills. Developers, give us our Hybrid Skills!</P>

[joe2sgirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Under the assumed acceptance of being a hybrid class, I protest that many key abilities are missing in my Paladin. </P> <P>- Mana Regeneration</P> <P>- Charming</P> <P>- Reactive Heal</P> <P>- Stealth</P> <P>- Damage Nuke</P> <P>- Debuff</P> <P>After this, we incorporate the most basic abilities of the majority of all classes and make us Hybrids. </P> <P>So all Hybrid-Supporter, up on the barricades!! We are missing key-hybrid skills. Developers, give us our Hybrid Skills<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>NICE post!! haha</P>

[Immuen]

<DIV>Immuen -  Why are you posting EQ1 class descriptions in the EQ2 Paladin forums?  EQ1 and EQ2 are "supposed" to be totally different games.  All tanks are supposed to be able to tank equally well in EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First off EQ1 is 500 years before EQ2!  Read your lore.  EQ2 is based off EQ1 and I played a paladin on EQ1 for 3 years.  I quit EQ1 bc tanks wheren't equal there.  Figured EQ2 they find better balance...lol ya right. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Back to the Hybrid thing...In EQ1 the took the priest's spells from a cleric and the tank abilities of a warrior.  Both in lesser values then the pure classes, then bam you have a Paladin.  Hence Hybrid, mix of 2 classes.  Later they added some other features to make a paladin more of it's own class.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Immuen on <span class=date_text>11-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:48 AM</span>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>I miss the feeling of an Diablo 2 Paladin. </DIV> <DIV>Barbarians where quite heavy, but Hammerdim, Fanazlot and Shocker Paladins could stand up and even outclass Barbarians. </DIV> <DIV>Hammerdims even outclassed Wizards with enough effort <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sad to see the burning smoke of what once was a prideful class <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>