Paladin / Shadowknight Comparison

[Vathranen]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I've been meaning to make a post on this for some time now. I've played both a Paladin and a Shadowknight to 70 and raided (a small amount) with both. I played a Paladin to 55 on PvE then went to PvP and started over there. I got my Paladin there to 70 and went back to PvE. Once back in PvE I betrayed my 55 Paladin to a Shadowknight and finished to 70. The Shadowknight is a solid class, as is the Paladin, but there are a few major differences. I'd like to post a comparison side-by-side to dispell some of the myths between the classes. I'm going to try and remain as neutral as I can and not offer any opinions or personal beliefs. Here's a breakdown of what each class gets comparatively: <font size="5"><b><u>Taunts</u></b></font> <b><i>Single Target</i></b> are basically the same - a small taunt over time, but the Shadowknight taunt has a disease DoT as well (93-113 every 3 sec for 9 sec at Adept III) <b><i>Group Taunt</i></b> are the same - Paladin debuffs divine resistance, Shadowknight debuffs disease resistance. <b><i>Shield bash</i></b> with a major taunt component for both classes, basically the same ability. Paladins get <b><i>Amends</i></b> which is a buff placed on a group member which gives 42% of their hate to the Paladin. Shadowknights get the <b><i>Caress</i> </b>line which is a damage shield with a hate increase component. At Master 1, it's 94 points of hate and 54 points of damage every time they get hit. Paladins get <b><i>Sigil of Heroism</i></b> which grants 32% of the group's aggro to the Paladin for 15 seconds. Shadowknights get <b><i>Death March</i></b> which (at Adept 1) increases the group's DPS by 45% for 10 seconds and makes everyone immune to mez, root, stun, stifle, etc. The spell lasts for 1 minute and is supposed to fire everytime a group member gets a kill. It's basically a 1 minute buff that causes a proc. And both have <i><b>Rescue </b></i>and <b><i>Intervene</i></b>, just like all fighters. <b><u><font size="5">Buffs</font></u></b> Paladins buff the group's <b><i>STR and WIS</i></b> Shadowknights buff the group's <b><i>STR and STA</i></b> Both classes have an 8% chance to proc damage across two abilities, one self only and one group, with comparable damage amounts: -The Paladin variation is a stun and some divine damage; double damage against undead. -The Shadowknight variation is a Lifetap, no stun or special component. Paladin gets a <b><i>self hitpoint buff</i></b>. Shadowknight gets no corresponding buff. <u><b><font size="5">Combat</font></b></u> <b><i>-Single target DD </i></b>- Paladin has an interrupt component (<i>Hallowed Judgement</i>), Shadowknight is just damage (<i>Abominable Anger</i>). <b><i>-Single target Large DD</i></b> - Shadowknight has a 33% snare (<i>Abominable Wrath</i>), Paladin is just damage (<i>Refusal of Conviction</i>). <i><b>-Point-blank AE nuke</b></i> - Shadowknight is a DoT, Paladin is DD with stun. <b><i>-Point-blank AE melee attack</i></b> - Shadowknight is DoT, Paladin is DD with group heal. -Paladin gets a melee attack with DoT (<b><i>Devout Strike</i></b>), Shadowknight gets a ranged Lifetap (<b><i>Drain Vitae</i></b>) -Shadowknight gets a single target <b><i>STR siphon</i></b> for 73 at Master 1. -Shadowknight gets a <b><i>DoT</i></b> 152 every 4 seconds for 20 seconds at Adept III.-Shadowknight gets a dumbfire pet. -Shadowknight gets an encounter <b><i>Physical mitigation debuff</i></b> for 1260 at Adept 1. Paladin gets an <b><i>encounter DD with interrupt</i></b> (Brimstone). Both may be cast on the run. -Paladin gets a self death ward spell. This is offset by the Shadowknight Death March spell detailed above. -Shadowknight gets a <b><i>power siphon</i></b> (Power DoT on opponent, increases power of caster by 20-33 every 4 sec for 24 sec) (This is the level 52 specialty spell offset by <i>Sigil of Heroism</i>) -Paladin melee attack with <b><i>extra divine damage and stun</i></b>, double damage on undead. Shadowknight melee attack that <b><i>Lifetaps</i></b> (412-687 disease dmg and heals caster by 228-380 at Master 1) -Paladin gets <b><i>Consecrate </i></b>which is a PBAoE DoT (don't remember duration). Shadowknight gets<b><i> Tap Veins</i></b> which is a Point-Blank AE nuke dealing 946 damage to all enemies in a radius around the Shadowknight (slightly larger than our normal AE) plus any target that takes damage also heals the Shadowknight for 466. -Paladin gets <b><i>Lay on Hands</i></b>, Shadowknight gets <b><i>Harm Touch</i></b>. -Paladin gets <b><i>Castigate </i></b>which removes all harmful spell effects from himself and deals damage to all nearby enemies which increases based on how many ailments were removed. Shadowknight gets <b><i>Pestilence </i></b>which is a DoT on a single enemy - if that enemy is killed while Pestilence is still active it goes onto two other nearby enemies, and so on until everything near the Shadowknight is dead.  Pestilence lasts for 16 seconds and deals 139-170 every 2 seconds at Adept III. <u><b><font size="5">Healing</font></b></u> Shadowknight healing takes place as Lifetaps. I've noted two Lifetaps above plus the two 8% chances for additional lifetap, but they also get a <b><i>reactive Lifetap</i></b> that is the counterpart to the Paladin's ward. It has the same cast and recast times and at Master 1 it heals the target for 272-333 and does 185-226 damage to the attacker each time the target is hit and triggers 5 times. It is the only healing ability that a Shadowknight can use on a party member. Paladin gets a <b><i>single target heal</i></b>. Paladin gets a <i><b>group heal</b></i>. Paladin gets a <b><i>ward</i></b>.Paladin gets <b><i>Lay on Hands </i></b>(15 min recast)Paladin gets a <b><i>large self heal</i></b>. (5 min recast) <b><u><font size="5">Utility</font></u></b> Paladin gets a <b><i>resurrect </i></b>that returns the target to life with 100% health on a 1 minute recast. Shadowknight gets a <b><i>Feign Death</i></b> that may be cast on a party member (92% chance of success at Adept 1) that lasts for 20 seconds with a 5 minute recast. Shadowknight gets an <b><i>Evac </i></b>with a 30 minute recast. (worth noting here that this evac is like wizard - easily interruptable in PvP, not like the scout evac) <b><u><font size="5">Stances</font></u></b> Paladin and Shadowknight stances are identical except Shadowknight gets extra mitigation vs. <b><i>disease </i></b>while Paladin gets extra vs. <b><i>divine</i></b>. Paladin and Shadowknight avoidance buffs are identical except Shadowknight gets +<b><i>parry </i></b>from his and Paladin gets +<b><i>defense </i></b>from his. Paladin and Shadowknight mitigation buff for another tank is identical. (The spell upgrade is actually useable by both classes). NOTE: All damage values for the Shadowknight I got from my own character in offensive stance with INT 368 <div></div><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class="date_text">11-10-2006</span> <span class="time_text">09:50 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class="date_text">11-10-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:02 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class=date_text>11-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>

[Rarlin]

Not trying to slam you or anything (you did a pretty good job with the post), but here are a few things that you may want to double check on:<ul><li>Amends at Master 1 I believe is 41% (not far off, but then again, I'm at work so I could be off)</li><li>Sigil is nowhere near 75%, it's more like 32% or so (somebody correct me please)</li><li>You mentioned that SK gets an easily interruptable Evac, this is also the case with our Wards/Heals <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  May want to remove the comment to keep things level.</li></ul>Overall, great comparision!<div></div>

[Vathranen]

<div></div>Oops on the Sigil thing. Apologies for that, I was writing from memory and I had this spell as a PvP Paladin - the PvP effect of this spell is a 75% chance to force target to attack the Paladin anytime a group member is hit. That's what I was going off of <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Fixed it to 32% as I can't recall what it is and don't want to log into PvP (and get ganked) to check.For the ward interrupting, that's universal for the crusader class. Interrupts are a game-breaker for both Paladin and Shadowknight classes, though far more for the Paladin I'll admit. The note I put in about evac mostly pertains to scouts. In PvP the scout evac cannot be interrupted <i>unless </i>there is a stun effect on the scout at the exact time the evac goes off, and it has to be a stun like shield bash, not just an interrupt. Wizard, Warden, and Shadowknight evac may all be interrupted by any normal attack, and will be interrupted by a stun or interrupt or movement. That's why I threw it in there as it is somewhat important to note in a PvP environment. (though it is still a pain to get an emergency spell cast while being beat on as a tank <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )Maybe I should put in casting times or something. The interrupts is something that all crusaders have to deal with. The Shadowknight's melee lifetap can't be interrupted (melee attack) but all the others have the same casting time as the Paladin's single heal or ward. I get pretty close to death sometimes when fighting large quantities of monsters trying to get Tap Veins off without getting interrupted. I usually make it, but sometimes I get interrupted to death - literally.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class=date_text>11-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:23 AM</span>

[ChopStix]

<P>yes i'm not ingame but sigil of heroism adept3 is 32%.   </P> <P>good write up on the shadow knight/paladin</P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>11-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 AM</span>

[Lairdragna]

excellent thread! <div></div>

[Knesh]

<DIV>Great write up. Might be a good idea to break down EoFS AA versus SKS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And Sigil of Heroism @ master is 36%.</DIV>

[Goejun]

Nice , nice ! Castigate don't cure everything btw. Just some levels<div></div>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>in pvp the shadow knight has the advantage...  the straight mitigation debuff the shadow knight gets ,is a good one...  the thing about the shadow knight compared to the paladin is a shadow knight is doing damage while they heal themselves, a paladin, if not --interrupted-- can heal themselves, in turn paladins arent doing any damage in the process, and our heals in t7 arent enough to offsett the damage we take in the process, i have all master1's of all heals....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SK's  power siphon -draining your power while doing damage, or they are using the, tap veins ,healing the shadow knight as you hit them...  the snare sk's get is also another one...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>many, many advantages in pvp  for a shadow knight, that i see....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>paladins ward, devotion gives us 1026 against all damage at master1 and it can be interrupted while casting..in group you have to target yourself to cast it on you while in combat.. the only castable spell we have while moving is brimstone..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you left out the bloodlines and splitpaw spells,  splitpaw-goading gesture, and bloodlines-doom judgement.. all fighters get goading gesture, a very good taunt and taunt over time for a short duration, doom judgement is an aoe debuff and doing melee damage in the process.. i'm not sure what the shadow knight gets from bloodline chronicles..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lairdragna]

IIRC SKs get doom judgement as well <div></div>

[Vathranen]

<div></div>Correct, both classes get goading gesture and doom judgement. That's why I left them out - somewhat redundant.ChopStix, you hit the nail on the head. Shadowknight is an amazing PvP class. It's also the only fighter with a snare.Also worth mentioning that Shadowknight's Harm Touch is max damage in PvP while Lay on Hands is nerfed something like 40% when used in PvP.I know Paladin's normal heals, like all heals, are nerfed 40%ish in PvP but I never checked to see if the Shadowknight's lifetaps are likewise reduced. I imagine they are.Now for the opinion part --Paladins are great in a support role. They also tank as well as any other fighter. They are quite versatile in that they can heal or tank or add some amount of damage or all three in some cases. The Shadowknight is great at soloing. He doesn't really offer much to a group other than evac and some extra damage. Shadowknights ~can~ tank but they aren't as good as most other tanks. They have plate armor, but they lack in taunting capacity. If you look at their abilities they generate aggro each time they're hit. But one of their primary taunts is a shield bash. Shields add to avoidance which means you'll get hit less. It feels like a contradiction. Also in defensive stance you lose out on all the INT offensive offers and quite a lot of DPS from DoTs and lifetaps. I've heard there are some Shadowknights that are raid tanks but I honestly don't see how. Their taunting is severely lacking compared to other fighters and hits tend to be bigger and slower which means less aggro from the Caress line.The new EoF AA lines, from what I see, offer the Shadowknight faster taunting capacity on his normal taunts or more DPS/Lifetapping. They aren't getting anything new as far as damage mitigation. The abilities look somewhat interesting but not particularly exciting; much like the new Paladin AA tree. I think the difference you guys are seeing is that Paladins want to be raid tanks and the new AA isn't helping them toward that goal. Shadowknights never really expected to be raid tanks so we aren't upset about the new AA lines.It's pretty common knowledge that Shadowknights do more damage than Paladins. However, once you hit 70 and start pulling awesome weapons out of raids you start to see that gap close. I find it disappointing, being a Shadowknight, because all that healing capacity that Paladins have is supposed to come in the form of damage potential for Shadowknights. But once you've got a two-handed weapon with a rating over 100 everybody's auto attack damage is higher than any combat arts so we're all basically the same as far as DPS goes. I think that's unfortunate. But I guess we have the previous 69 levels to have a difference in our classes.This post is all just opinion though, only worth what you paid for it.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class=date_text>11-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span>

[Crib92]

<P>Couple things to add on heals for Pallies</P> <P> </P> <UL> <LI>Single Target heal</LI> <LI>Group Heal</LI> <LI>Ward</LI> <LI><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Big single target heal on long timer</FONT></STRONG></LI> <LI><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Self heal on moderate timer</FONT></STRONG></LI></UL> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P>

[Vathranen]

<div></div>Yeah I captured the Lay on Hands when comparing it to Harm Touch. You're right I should have grouped it in with the healing capabilities. Shame on me for forgetting about the self-heal. I'll throw it up there too.I looked over the Shadowknight EoF AA tree and, honestly, you guys aren't much worse off. The new AA's are just really boring. The only halfway interesting things Shadowknight gets is <ul><li>Reaver - ending power is a health drain but heal component on all offensive spells. From what the beta guys say the return on healing isn't as much as the health drain so this is a suicide ability. Not sure what it's supposed to really do.</li><li>Hate - ending power gives Shadowknight 1% aggro from all group members. I guess this is something like Amends except we don't lower the group's aggro like Amends does on a single target. From what the beta guys say they couldn't tell if it was working or not. He grouped with wizard/warlock/ranger but nobody could tell a difference if it was on or off.</li><li>Decay - a reverse pledge of armament. Target is supposed to another fighter (beta guys say it works on any group member). It lowers the target's mitigation and raises the Shadowknight's. Target cannot cancel the buff. As it is now, there's way too much room for grief, and as the beta guys say, it'll just lead to conflict within a group. They suggest making it a mob siphon for mitigation like our strength siphon. You get to keep the siphoned effect for the full duration even if the mob dies.</li></ul>Other than those all the abilities are just trash. I was laughing at the Paladin AA that makes Faithful Swing 15% stronger, but now I have to eat my words. We get things that are even more worthless than that (I know, doesn't seem possible).All in all I haven't seen any EoF AA abilities that are worth getting excited over. They just can't offer any customization for a class without unbalancing an already unbalanced game.Ah well at least we can play fairies.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class=date_text>11-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:13 PM</span>

[Errie_Tholluxe]

<font size="4"><font color="#ff6600">I found the answer to why paladins got hit so hard<a href="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html" target=_blank> here</a>.</font></font><div></div>

[Lairdragna]

<blockquote><hr>Errie_Tholluxe wrote:<font size="4"><font color="#ff6600">I found the answer to why paladins got hit so hard<a href="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html" target="_blank"> here</a>.</font></font><div></div><hr></blockquote>omg that's so wrrrrronnnnngggg yet SSOOOOOOOOOOO right!<div></div>

[Vathranen]

<div></div>Hah HahThat was pretty good. I've always held that Paladins are given everything (as in P&P D&D) so their major fault is their own arrogance. The whole immune to fear thing is a new take and fits pretty well. Too bad it's completely inaccurate in EQ2. I say if the last WIS AA power was group immunity to fear within a radius a la D&D then it might be worth something.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class=date_text>11-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 PM</span>

[Rast]

ok, that was a riot! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SpyrerTheFirst]

You forgot the unmentioned hate component in Death March, when cast it hits for like 2k-3k hate for each party member engaged, so basically its an AE rescue.<div></div>

[Vathranen]

Yeah I did forget to mention it. I tried to keep as much of my opinion, even experience with the class, out of the original post.But you're right, even from group 4 of a raid I can grab aggro for 10 seconds every 5 minutes.<div></div>

[Immuen]

<P>  Awesome comparison</P> <P>After lookin at this, I notice SKs aren't compareable to Paladins in alot aways.  Sks being the DPS part of crusaders while Paladins being the protecter.</P> <P>Remember before reading any further, I am making comparisons I see IMHO and used the guidline that SKs and Paladins are crusaders.  One being good and just while other evil and deathly.  remember paladins and Sks are enemies representing different sides.</P> <P>  IMHO I liked to know why they gave SKs a DoT towards their single target taunt?  I like the idea that a SK's words are toxic to hear.  Something like that for Paladins would be cool, taunts for us would speak just and righteousness causing divine damage to opposing evil.</P> <P>Amends makes up for agro control and Sk have no such ability.  IMHO that is wrong and is always going to be a SKs downfall.  The trade off for is Caress.  I belive is an awesome spell.  Then again I would think something similar should be to paladins but in a different form.  Maybe a proc shield that cast blur vision to opposing enemy.  Which increase hate by 100 maybe.  I trade amends for that.  Or the ward itself.</P> <P>  Sigil of Heroism, Again another hate transfer which SKs get shafted again on.  IMHO  I rather have something compareable to Death's March.  Maybe add +5 to defense for 10 secs or increase to resist.  Again IMHO.  BTW I never have taken the time to compare the crusader abilities and find this very interesting</P> <P>  As far as group buffs, never understood why SKs being a INT stat class got STA with the STR.  Makes more sense they had INT then STA IMHO.  Though back in the day, the group buff for Paladins was STR, STA, and WIS, believe SKs was similar but SOE somewhere believe this was too powerful and nerfed it.  IMHO I think it's was nonsense but again not giving a SK INT is too.</P> <P>  As for Paladin ward, I always thought SKs should have a ward that was a damage shield.  Guess Caress is that.  IMHO as for balance they should have a ward.  Crusader ability.</P> <P>  For Paladin CA towards undead, Looks like nothing is compareable then their temp pet.  The lifetap not having attached is something of debated for me atm.  Being Sks are Paladins foe and do the opposite of paladins.  We do extra Damage to undead then Sks should be able to extra damage to extreme holy?  Back in EQ1 both did undead damages maybe bring that back for them.</P> <P>  Paladins get the HP buff and Sks don't.  IMHO that is nonsense.  If they don't get a HP increase at least give them a DPS increase.  Hmm death March has that.</P> <P>  I never understood why Paladins where given DD, I can see a SK with it but not paladins.  As far as interrupts from a paladin is very a reasonable thing.  Back in EQ1 stuns where a paladins interrupts starting with no damage and later with min damage attached to it.  Nukes should be given to the SKs (DPSer) and leave the Paladins with interrupt/stun abilities.</P> <P>  AEs should be a SK speciality over a paladin.  Think giving Paladins alot AEs with effects is crazy IMHO.  The effects are more important then the AE.  While the AE is more imporant to SK.</P> <P>  I for want never again understood a Paladin doing DoT, that is more of a SK thing.  Just like again back in EQ1.  I do like the idea of adding heals to Paladins attacks but the heal favor is so subpar atm that is a worthless attachment IMHO.</P> <P>  I think Sks should be a debuffer of disease, power, health, mit, and STR.  Then again paladins should be able to counter this with similar abilities. Like resists, cures, FT or replenish power, heals, etc.  IMHO I trade hate transfers and abilities more focus towards are foe the SK and the Sk be more focus towards us paladins.  Still focus to world content as well.</P> <P>  Lifetaps are a major function to SKs.  They are the anti heal spells.  Lifetaps should compare to the heals of a paladin just done in a different form.  They take away health from another and give it back to themselves or others.  While that health taken away for the mob is also damage.</P> <P>  So healing comparison for Sk should follow:</P> <P>Single target Lifetap</P> <P>Group lifetap</P> <P>Something similar/counter paladin ward</P> <P>harmtouch </P> <P>large single target Lifetap on timer</P> <P>only counter to Lifetaps for paladins IMHO is attacks with heals</P>

[Vathranen]

Your wish list is interesting. After having played both what you describe is actually how it is in the game. Shadowknights are more focused on AE and damage potential while Paladins are more focused on stuns and interrupts. The Shadowknight's blessing line (reactive lifetap) is basically a damage shield with healing component (ward).Having said that, from what I've read on the EoF forums they're splitting us up. It looks like they're doing away with some subclasses - Shadowknight and Paladin are no longer listed as two sides of an alignment, but each on their own. Likewise assassins got grouped in with swashbucklers and brigands while ranger got left out on his own.I don't know if that's just cosmetic so the new player can see that certain class types have similar playstyles or if it's a sign of things to come.<div></div>

[Deevaun]

<P>I have both a 70 SK with 50 AAs and a 70 Pal with 50 AAs, very similar taunt layouts and play style.  It is EXTREMELY true, paladins heal better and SKs dps better.  Big difference though, SKs don't have to rely on anyone to gain hate, paladins HAVE to relyo n others through Amend and a broken Sigil if grouped with any other hate transfer classes.  SKs can make a complimentory MT group without having to worry about putting the top hate classes in group, paladins have to worry about who is in their MT group so that they have the best hate transfer possible for the right situation.  Both classes have potential to rock, but I find relying on other classes to feed the paladin rather lame.  Understood that with the hate transfer it is EXTREMELY useful in many situations, either to help control agro so someone else can tank, in group scenarios so that the paladin is uber agro with limited players, or even situational for raiding.  But lots of folks in raid guilds dont' want to waste time swithcing people around for situations even though the pal can do it.  I envy SKs as my SK doesn't have to worry about relying on other classes to be there active all the time, they just open a can of woop [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  When tanking groups my SK does around 800-900 dps on average MT in labs.  My paladin, probably half that.  </P>

[Antryg Mistrose]

So? your paladin gets 39-41% of someone elses hate, all the other taunt abiliteis match up (sigil for SK damage shield).  Amends is the one EXTRA that paladins get. so SK's absolutely MUST do way more damage to hold aggro (or get aggro from the bigger arrange of debuffs)I find the playstyle rather different - as a SK you need to be far more proactive.I haven't done a side by side comparison on percentage of spells vs combat arts, but think SK has the edge in interrupts even with more spells - faster casting times I'd guess on the spells used most often.  Paladin (before I betrayed), certainly felt more interruptible when trying to ward/heal self.  Tap Veins as others have noted is the only one I get interrupted on a lot now.Both struggle to be raid tanks compared to warriors, but EoF at least for SK's has some nice stuff (mitigation siphon & extra hate abilities) that may close the gap, if paladins are just getting heal enhancements, then I guess a few more will be betraying<div></div>

[Vathranen]

<div></div><div></div>Sigil actually matches up with Death March. Amends and Caress are the two auto taunt abilities that you have to compare.The first thing I noticed when I switched from Paladin to Shadowknight was the lack of interrupts. Paladins are interrupt machines - a mage killer if you will - whereas a Shadowknight just leeches life back after you hurt him. Like you said, many Shadowknight abilities are very fast so aren't as susceptible to interrupts ergo they don't need to stun to buy time for the ward/heal.  I know I didn't make it overtly obvious in the original post, so here's the breakdown of interrupts:<blockquote><div align="left"><b><u>Paladin                                                                           Shadowknight</u></b>Relentless Conviction (AE stun)                                             8% chance proc (stun)8% chance proc (group chance stun)Brimstone (AE interrupt)Hallowed Judgement (single target interrupt)Extinguish Will (stun)Kick (stun)                                                                       Kick (stun)Shield Bash (stun)                                                           Shield Bash (stun)</div></blockquote>And both have access to Hammer Ground.<div align="left"></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class="date_text">11-11-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:08 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class=date_text>11-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:09 PM</span>

[Canel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Immuen wrote:<BR> <P>  Awesome comparison</P> <P>After lookin at this, I notice SKs aren't compareable to Paladins in alot aways.  Sks being the DPS part of crusaders while Paladins being the protecter.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Well, I dun know about you but usually every single raid I am out DPSing the SK(s) in the raid by usually a reasonable margin. Maybe that's due to my AA line choices but just what I've noticed (went the INT and STR/STA lines)</FONT>

[Immuen]

<DIV>I orginally went AP1 STR 4,4,8,8,0 STA 5,4,8,8,0</DIV> <DIV> I held agro easily as long as it was focused to 1 target</DIV> <DIV>I respec to AP1 STA 8,5,8,8,0  INT 8,4,8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All i can say is WOW!  I got a major DPS increase as well multi targets control is much easier..</DIV> <DIV>  What's is more insane, I am on parser with 50-60 crits on trash while doing 100-200 crits on named</DIV> <DIV>While I MT Amorphous drake I crit for 376 times</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for a SKs I never see any of ours make parser, before respec I only touched parser if people where slacking now, I usually on it oneway or another.  But then again I think the SKs should be up there making us paladins lookin silly at DPS.  I find it personally insult being an X EQ1 paladin having the AEs we have and lost EQ1 paladin game play.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Immuen on <span class=date_text>11-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:45 PM</span>

[Vathranen]

I went on a raid this weekend with my Shadowknight and made the DPS parse in 80% of the fights (they parse everything). It all depended on whether there was more than one mob since most of my DPS is AE. The funny thing I noticed was that I was beating both the monk and bruiser on many fights. I didn't think that was possible. The sad thing was that I was beating the conjurers and one wizard as well. Our raid leader kept yelling at them to wake up and get busy - being beat on DPS by a Shadowknight was shameful. And a Shadowknight in really crappy gear (not a single piece of relic armor) made it even worse. I was even parsing higher than the raid tank (a paladin in full relic). And I only have 26 AA points so far. Got spell crits and haste but no melee crit line yet, so I'll only get better with time.I think DPS between fighters depends entirely on stance and equipment. Anybody can just click attack buttons. I had the advantage over the zerker and the paladin because I was able to stay in offensive stance and use a two-handed weapon with 20% haste on it as well as keep all my INT gear on. However that's no excuse for the brawlers - they should be able to out DPS everybody. I think maybe we just had two lazy brawlers.<div></div>

[Canel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vathranen wrote:<BR>I went on a raid this weekend with my Shadowknight and made the DPS parse in 80% of the fights (they parse everything). It all depended on whether there was more than one mob since most of my DPS is AE. The funny thing I noticed was that I was beating both the monk and bruiser on many fights. I didn't think that was possible. The sad thing was that I was beating the conjurers and one wizard as well. Our raid leader kept yelling at them to wake up and get busy - being beat on DPS by a Shadowknight was shameful. And a Shadowknight in really crappy gear (not a single piece of relic armor) made it even worse. I was even parsing higher than the raid tank (a paladin in full relic). And I only have 26 AA points so far. Got spell crits and haste but no melee crit line yet, so I'll only get better with time.<BR><BR>I think DPS between fighters depends entirely on stance and equipment. Anybody can just click attack buttons. I had the advantage over the zerker and the paladin because I was able to stay in offensive stance and use a two-handed weapon with 20% haste on it as well as keep all my INT gear on. However that's no excuse for the brawlers - they should be able to out DPS everybody. I think maybe we just had two lazy brawlers.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>well, you kinda got a bit of a point. (relic is good if your not in a major raiding guild or said SK was an alt) but a fully DPS buffed SK can definatly do some big damage. BUT that is if their group is COMPLETLY based on having the SK do damage. Im talking about chanter dps/haste buffs, a brawler's dps/haste buffs, and then a bard for the extra crit %s. unless a raid was specifically geared for the SK, then they really arent the biggest damage doers.<BR>