11/10 AA changes, improvements to Hero line [Archive]

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Caetrel

11-10-2006, 01:57 PM

Nothing spectacular, but the block now does 25%, up from 20%. Also, BotP health buff now gets 12% increase per point, up from 10, for a total 60% bonus. For all EoF AAs it now only costs 1 point to gain a final ability, but you now must spend 20 prerequisite points in the line to have access. So more points to spend, but more restrictions if you wish to access any final abilities. <div></div>

Lairdragna

11-10-2006, 02:29 PM

Will try playing with them tomorrow and see how they shake out, thanks for the update. Sadly, still no temp mit buff or the ability to double attack...<div></div>

Faelgalad

11-10-2006, 06:18 PM

No hate, no game, just peebles to the masses, numbers that look good, but change nothing. We need a taunt line! (Top 1 Priority) Changes in Call to Armament mechanic in a whole to get Mitigation. Single Attack Improvements.

Caetrel

11-10-2006, 06:48 PM

I don't see any reason to improve paladin hate gain when we really need better survivability. I have no problem holding aggro in a 15k+ dps raid, and have never really had an issue with hate. The problem I have is being mathematically inferior to every other plate tank in mit and avoidance. <div></div>

Rast

11-10-2006, 07:11 PM

I'd rather see our heals and wards become instacast (or uninteruptable) than have a mit increase... a mit increase just makes us a guardian lite, allowing us to use our skills in a way in which they were intended allows us to use the "protection magic" to improve our survivablility. Such a small change that would go a long way to improving the over all tank ability of Paladins.

Drastar

11-10-2006, 07:46 PM

I would not mind a new personal ward, stackable with our other ward of course. Or maybe a personal damage absorber that reduces damaged by x%? This would help out tanking I think. Message Edited by Atheros01 on 11-10-2006 06:47 AMMessage Edited by Atheros01 on 11-10-2006 06:54 AM

Wulfborne

11-10-2006, 09:40 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Caetrel wrote:Nothing spectacular, but the block now does 25%, up from 20%. Also, BotP health buff now gets 12% increase per point, up from 10, for a total 60% bonus. For all EoF AAs it now only costs 1 point to gain a final ability, but you now must spend 20 prerequisite points in the line to have access. So more points to spend, but more restrictions if you wish to access any final abilities. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Meh... Now to get an end ability you have to spend 21 AA's (20 reg + 1 for final) as opposed to the 20 before (15 regular + 5 for final). I guess at least more go into other abilities instead of piling them into the end ones? /shrug~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</div>

OrcSlayer96

11-10-2006, 11:39 PM

One of the easier fixes they could do is change the sacrament line to 2 min recast, .5 sec combat art with a ward attached to it. No healer envy being self buffed and if you changed the wards/heals to combat arts, it would be castable on the run and short casting time. Those that say heals are always spells need only look at bruiser/monk's mend/heal ability. We are suppose to be fighters with abilities similar to healers, doesnt mean we have to be spell users on the heals/wards. leave the spell usage to the range spells and aoes.

Wulfborne

11-11-2006, 12:34 AM

<div></div>I made the following post over on the Beta boards, hoping maybe they'll still be re-looking this line:I just ran around testing out the new blocking (it was raised from 20% to 24%) and I did notice me blocking more attacks than before, so it's definitely a step in the right direction. I would like to point out, however, that now in order to get that blocking mastery, we must max out every single hero AA that we have. (Blocking mastery requires 20 AA spent in Hero). While I feel that this ability is decent, if not quite as much as I'd like, the other abilities in the hero line are simply not helpful enough to warrant having to max out an entire AA line for it. Hero 1 - Enhance: Righteous Condemnation - maxed out, it increases heal amount by 100% (lvl 57). At Master 1, this gives a heal of 226. Quite honestly, the heal amounts tied to this ability have been so small (relative to the paladin's health pool) that I have never seen a point to it. Even an increase of 100% is a mere 226 hp out of many thousand. Aside from the fact that this maxed out AA makes no notable difference in it's current form, a small heal attached to one combat art doesn't seem very 'heroic'. Suggestion: I'd like to see this ability replaced with something else more tank-esque.Hero 2 - Enhance: Ardent Belief - maxed out, it increases the wisdom amount by 50% (lvl 61). At Master 1, the spell description on Ardent Belief reads: Increases Str and Wis of group members (AE) by 54. So, the spell description is wrong on the enhanced version (BUG). In casting, my wis/str were 355/345 before casting the enhanced buff, and 435/398 after casting it. This increased my wis by 80 total, and str by 53. If the wisdom were indeed increased by 50%, it should have gone up by 81 (BUG of 1 wis) and str should have gone up by 54 (BUG of 1 str). Suggestion: That aside, I like the boost to wisdom, assuming resists will be harder to cap, but I'd also like the str to increase, or - lacking that, perhaps an Agi modifier added in.Hero 3 - Enhance: Blessing of the Reverant - maxed out, it increases maximum health amount by 60% (lvl 66). At Master 1, the spell description says that it increases max health by 587. Suggestion: This is not a bad ability, though I'd like to see it tweaked upwards juuuust a tad more. Also, that few HP (relative to the pre-existing pool) makes a smaller difference, so I'd honestly like to see this replace the Hero 1 line spot in the lineup.Hero 4 - Enhance: Sigil of Heroism - maxed out, it increases duration by 5 seconds (lvl 52). At Master 1, the spell description says that it transfers 36% of the group members' current threat to the caster, and lasts for 20 seconds. Suggestion: In practice with group situations, the 5 second increase hasn't made any notable difference. I was able to obtain good aggro before the enhancement, so this seemed to work identically to before the enhancement. In raid situations, this ability is not long enough or not powerful enough to assist the paladin to obtain or maintain aggro any better. Suggestion: Have the enhancement either increase the threat % transferred, or increase the duration further (or a combination of the two). Groups will not notice a difference, so increasing those 2 attributes is necessary for any difference in raid play.Hero 5 - Blocking Mastery - Increases shield effectiveness of caster by 24%. First, paladins don't cast this - it's a passive ability, so to be clearer the description should replace 'caster' with 'paladin'. Suggestion: I like the ability, but would still like to see it's effectiveness increased a bit more. Also, I'd like to see it sitting in a non-final ability position, possibly renamed to Enhance: Faithful Benediction (our defensive stance).Here is an example Hero lineup I think would help those int eh paladin community that wish to enhance their tanking abilities (all at Master 1 examples):Hero 1 - Enhance: Ardent Belief - at 5AA's, increases wisdom 50%, adds 25 agi.Hero 2 - Enhance: Sigil of Heroism - at 5 AA's, increases duration by 10 sec, increases group threat transfer to 38%.Hero 3 - Enhance: Blessing of the Reverant - at 5 AA's, increases maximum health amount by 70%.Hero 4 - Enhance: Faithful Benediction - at 5 AA's, increases shield effectiveness of paladin by 30%.Hero 5 (end ability) - Divine Barrier (whatever - gimme some credit for trying! <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"> ) - Greatly increases paladin's base resists to magical attacks. (The amount of increase would need to be something that would make a nice notable difference for casted attacks, but not so much as to make us completely AE immune or whatever. Should be a short term buff, with medium recast, imo).Anyway, that's the best I can come up with, given paladin requests I have read and experience myself, while not trying to encroach on other tanks' abilities.~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<div></div>Message Edited by Wulfborne on 11-10-2006 11:36 AM

Drastar

11-11-2006, 01:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote: Hero 5 (end ability) - Divine Barrier (whatever - gimme some credit for trying! <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0> ) - Greatly increases paladin's base resists to magical attacks. (The amount of increase would need to be something that would make a nice notable difference for casted attacks, but not so much as to make us completely AE immune or whatever. Should be a short term buff, with medium recast, imo). ~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul Message Edited by Wulfborne on 11-10-2006 11:36 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Divine Barrier, why not make it a ward? Now that would be hawt:smileywink:

ChopStix

11-11-2006, 03:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote: I made the following post over on the Beta boards, hoping maybe they'll still be re-looking this line: I just ran around testing out the new blocking (it was raised from 20% to 24%) and I did notice me blocking more attacks than before, so it's definitely a step in the right direction. I would like to point out, however, that now in order to get that blocking mastery, we must max out every single hero AA that we have. (Blocking mastery requires 20 AA spent in Hero). While I feel that this ability is decent, if not quite as much as I'd like, the other abilities in the hero line are simply not helpful enough to warrant having to max out an entire AA line for it. Hero 1 - Enhance: Righteous Condemnation - maxed out, it increases heal amount by 100% (lvl 57). At Master 1, this gives a heal of 226. Quite honestly, the heal amounts tied to this ability have been so small (relative to the paladin's health pool) that I have never seen a point to it. Even an increase of 100% is a mere 226 hp out of many thousand. Aside from the fact that this maxed out AA makes no notable difference in it's current form, a small heal attached to one combat art doesn't seem very 'heroic'. Suggestion: I'd like to see this ability replaced with something else more tank-esque. Hero 2 - Enhance: Ardent Belief - maxed out, it increases the wisdom amount by 50% (lvl 61). At Master 1, the spell description on Ardent Belief reads: Increases Str and Wis of group members (AE) by 54. So, the spell description is wrong on the enhanced version (BUG). In casting, my wis/str were 355/345 before casting the enhanced buff, and 435/398 after casting it. This increased my wis by 80 total, and str by 53. If the wisdom were indeed increased by 50%, it should have gone up by 81 (BUG of 1 wis) and str should have gone up by 54 (BUG of 1 str). Suggestion: That aside, I like the boost to wisdom, assuming resists will be harder to cap, but I'd also like the str to increase, or - lacking that, perhaps an Agi modifier added in. Hero 3 - Enhance: Blessing of the Reverant - maxed out, it increases maximum health amount by 60% (lvl 66). At Master 1, the spell description says that it increases max health by 587. Suggestion: This is not a bad ability, though I'd like to see it tweaked upwards juuuust a tad more. Also, that few HP (relative to the pre-existing pool) makes a smaller difference, so I'd honestly like to see this replace the Hero 1 line spot in the lineup. Hero 4 - Enhance: Sigil of Heroism - maxed out, it increases duration by 5 seconds (lvl 52). At Master 1, the spell description says that it transfers 36% of the group members' current threat to the caster, and lasts for 20 seconds. Suggestion: In practice with group situations, the 5 second increase hasn't made any notable difference. I was able to obtain good aggro before the enhancement, so this seemed to work identically to before the enhancement. In raid situations, this ability is not long enough or not powerful enough to assist the paladin to obtain or maintain aggro any better. Suggestion: Have the enhancement either increase the threat % transferred, or increase the duration further (or a combination of the two). Groups will not notice a difference, so increasing those 2 attributes is necessary for any difference in raid play. Hero 5 - Blocking Mastery - Increases shield effectiveness of caster by 24%. First, paladins don't cast this - it's a passive ability, so to be clearer the description should replace 'caster' with 'paladin'. Suggestion: I like the ability, but would still like to see it's effectiveness increased a bit more. Also, I'd like to see it sitting in a non-final ability position, possibly renamed to Enhance: Faithful Benediction (our defensive stance). Here is an example Hero lineup I think would help those int eh paladin community that wish to enhance their tanking abilities (all at Master 1 examples): Hero 1 - Enhance: Ardent Belief - at 5AA's, increases wisdom 50%, adds 25 agi. Hero 2 - Enhance: Sigil of Heroism - at 5 AA's, increases duration by 10 sec, increases group threat transfer to 38%. Hero 3 - Enhance: Blessing of the Reverant - at 5 AA's, increases maximum health amount by 70%. Hero 4 - Enhance: Faithful Benediction - at 5 AA's, increases shield effectiveness of paladin by 30%. Hero 5 (end ability) - Divine Barrier (whatever - gimme some credit for trying! <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0> ) - Greatly increases paladin's base resists to magical attacks. (The amount of increase would need to be something that would make a nice notable difference for casted attacks, but not so much as to make us completely AE immune or whatever. Should be a short term buff, with medium recast, imo). Anyway, that's the best I can come up with, given paladin requests I have read and experience myself, while not trying to encroach on other tanks' abilities. ~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul Message Edited by Wulfborne on 11-10-2006 11:36 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> that would make us viable tanks, and very good back up tanks.. i could definetly go with this, man, you need a job as a developer :]

Immuen

11-11-2006, 04:56 AM

Sigil of Heroism btw is a grey spell. What does that mean? Look it up, short version is supbar to current abilities. Enhancing a outgrowen spell is crazy to me. IMHO In my experience the spell only works if any member is currently getting agro. If your playing a MA role and MT goes down, mob is lookin for second on agro list. If nobody in your group is that person chances are most likely this spell isn't going to help. Only time it's totally efffective is agro is focused to your group, where you being MT or some major DPSer in the group. I personaly use it on pulls or setting up/position a named as a MT. Righteous Condemnation is a subpar spell that I know most paladins don't use. Why? Simiple no real damage attached to it and the healing effect does even remove a scratch. If the healing effect was that of our single target heal then it be worth something. Question I have is why are all the AAs based to our magic? There is 1 towards fighter skills and that is blocking. Back in EQ1 any fighter abilities in AAs where through out the classes. Example double attack enchancements where offered then all fighters where offered it in the AAs. Hence all fighters have knowledge in the abilities but warriors where better at it.Message Edited by Immuen on 11-10-2006 04:02 PM

redi

11-11-2006, 05:14 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Immuen wrote:<div></div> <div></div> Sigil of Heroism btw is a grey spell. What does that mean? Look it up, short version is supbar to current abilities. Enhancing a outgrowen spell is crazy to me. IMHO In my experience the spell only works if any member is currently getting agro. If your playing a MA role and MT goes down, mob is lookin for second on agro list. If nobody in your group is that person chances are most likely this spell isn't going to help. Only time it's totally efffective is agro is focused to your group, where you being MT or some major DPSer in the group. I personaly use it on pulls or setting up/position a named as a MT.Erm, u didn't get it. Sigil of heroism transfers the current aggro of the following 15/20 seconds to u, means the more aggro your group builds up, the higher your hate-position will be.=>mt is short before goind down: a rescue with round bout 3 mins recast. Righteous Condemnation is a subpar spell that I know most paladins don't use. Why? Simiple no real damage attached to it and the healing effect does even remove a scratch. If the healing effect was that of our single target heal then it be worth something.Even if u fairly use it, are all your spells up all the time? i can spam all my buttons and have a second where i can't cast. Question I have is why are all the AAs based to our magic? There is 1 towards fighter skills and that is blocking. Back in EQ1 any fighter abilities in AAs where through out the classes. Example double attack enchancements where offered then all fighters where offered it in the AAs. Hence all fighters have knowledge in the abilities but warriors where better at it.Message Edited by Immuen on 11-10-2006 04:02 PM<hr></blockquote></div>

11-12-2006, 03:30 AM

Temporary Magical Mit Buff/ward... beautiful idea - give us a role in raiding!With the increase in mitigation caps to (LVL * 150), temporary mit buffs are going to be a huge advantage.

FallenTurtle

11-12-2006, 03:58 AM

<DIV>and we, as crusaders have no such thing as a temporary buff.. why not change divine favor into one? that way, its usefull.. and it makes some sence</DIV>

Anzak

11-14-2006, 01:36 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Wulfborne wrote:<div></div>I made the following post over on the Beta boards, hoping maybe they'll still be re-looking this line:I just ran around testing out the new blocking (it was raised from 20% to 24%) and I did notice me blocking more attacks than before, so it's definitely a step in the right direction. I would like to point out, however, that now in order to get that blocking mastery, we must max out every single hero AA that we have. (Blocking mastery requires 20 AA spent in Hero). While I feel that this ability is decent, if not quite as much as I'd like, the other abilities in the hero line are simply not helpful enough to warrant having to max out an entire AA line for it. Hero 1 - Enhance: Righteous Condemnation - maxed out, it increases heal amount by 100% (lvl 57). At Master 1, this gives a heal of 226. Quite honestly, the heal amounts tied to this ability have been so small (relative to the paladin's health pool) that I have never seen a point to it. Even an increase of 100% is a mere 226 hp out of many thousand. Aside from the fact that this maxed out AA makes no notable difference in it's current form, a small heal attached to one combat art doesn't seem very 'heroic'. Suggestion: I'd like to see this ability replaced with something else more tank-esque.Hero 2 - Enhance: Ardent Belief - maxed out, it increases the wisdom amount by 50% (lvl 61). At Master 1, the spell description on Ardent Belief reads: Increases Str and Wis of group members (AE) by 54. So, the spell description is wrong on the enhanced version (BUG). In casting, my wis/str were 355/345 before casting the enhanced buff, and 435/398 after casting it. This increased my wis by 80 total, and str by 53. If the wisdom were indeed increased by 50%, it should have gone up by 81 (BUG of 1 wis) and str should have gone up by 54 (BUG of 1 str). Suggestion: That aside, I like the boost to wisdom, assuming resists will be harder to cap, but I'd also like the str to increase, or - lacking that, perhaps an Agi modifier added in.Hero 3 - Enhance: Blessing of the Reverant - maxed out, it increases maximum health amount by 60% (lvl 66). At Master 1, the spell description says that it increases max health by 587. Suggestion: This is not a bad ability, though I'd like to see it tweaked upwards juuuust a tad more. Also, that few HP (relative to the pre-existing pool) makes a smaller difference, so I'd honestly like to see this replace the Hero 1 line spot in the lineup.Hero 4 - Enhance: Sigil of Heroism - maxed out, it increases duration by 5 seconds (lvl 52). At Master 1, the spell description says that it transfers 36% of the group members' current threat to the caster, and lasts for 20 seconds. Suggestion: In practice with group situations, the 5 second increase hasn't made any notable difference. I was able to obtain good aggro before the enhancement, so this seemed to work identically to before the enhancement. In raid situations, this ability is not long enough or not powerful enough to assist the paladin to obtain or maintain aggro any better. Suggestion: Have the enhancement either increase the threat % transferred, or increase the duration further (or a combination of the two). Groups will not notice a difference, so increasing those 2 attributes is necessary for any difference in raid play.Hero 5 - Blocking Mastery - Increases shield effectiveness of caster by 24%. First, paladins don't cast this - it's a passive ability, so to be clearer the description should replace 'caster' with 'paladin'. Suggestion: I like the ability, but would still like to see it's effectiveness increased a bit more. Also, I'd like to see it sitting in a non-final ability position, possibly renamed to Enhance: Faithful Benediction (our defensive stance).Here is an example Hero lineup I think would help those int eh paladin community that wish to enhance their tanking abilities (all at Master 1 examples):Hero 1 - Enhance: Ardent Belief - at 5AA's, increases wisdom 50%, adds 25 agi.Hero 2 - Enhance: Sigil of Heroism - at 5 AA's, increases duration by 10 sec, increases group threat transfer to 38%.Hero 3 - Enhance: Blessing of the Reverant - at 5 AA's, increases maximum health amount by 70%.Hero 4 - Enhance: Faithful Benediction - at 5 AA's, increases shield effectiveness of paladin by 30%.Hero 5 (end ability) - Divine Barrier (whatever - gimme some credit for trying! <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"> ) - Greatly increases paladin's base resists to magical attacks. (The amount of increase would need to be something that would make a nice notable difference for casted attacks, but not so much as to make us completely AE immune or whatever. Should be a short term buff, with medium recast, imo).Anyway, that's the best I can come up with, given paladin requests I have read and experience myself, while not trying to encroach on other tanks' abilities.~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<div></div>Message Edited by Wulfborne on 11-10-2006 11:36 AM<hr></blockquote>Wow.....just wow. I'm a huge supporter of Paladins in raid tank roles but this is over the top. When I read the current beta info I thought it was actually very decent. This right here is asking too much. You want to block rate raised from 24% to 30% Dear god 24% is huge what do you want to be an avoidance tank? Sorry I just can't even put into words how over the top this is. Like I said when I saw the current version of the Hero line I was impressed and actually thought SOE did something right for once.</div>

Immuen

11-14-2006, 02:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> redict wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Immuen wrote: Sigil of Heroism btw is a grey spell. What does that mean? Look it up, short version is supbar to current abilities. Enhancing a outgrowen spell is crazy to me. IMHO In my experience the spell only works if any member is currently getting agro. If your playing a MA role and MT goes down, mob is lookin for second on agro list. If nobody in your group is that person chances are most likely this spell isn't going to help. Only time it's totally efffective is agro is focused to your group, where you being MT or some major DPSer in the group. I personaly use it on pulls or setting up/position a named as a MT. Erm, u didn't get it. Sigil of heroism transfers the current aggro of the following 15/20 seconds to u, means the more aggro your group builds up, the higher your hate-position will be.=>mt is short before goind down: a rescue with round bout 3 mins recast. Righteous Condemnation is a subpar spell that I know most paladins don't use. Why? Simiple no real damage attached to it and the healing effect does even remove a scratch. If the healing effect was that of our single target heal then it be worth something. Even if u fairly use it, are all your spells up all the time? i can spam all my buttons and have a second where i can't cast. Question I have is why are all the AAs based to our magic? There is 1 towards fighter skills and that is blocking. Back in EQ1 any fighter abilities in AAs where through out the classes. Example double attack enchancements where offered then all fighters where offered it in the AAs. Hence all fighters have knowledge in the abilities but warriors where better at it. Message Edited by Immuen on 11-10-2006 04:02 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Hmm read the spell, tranfers a % of group hate. Not all, not what they have already builted up, and not what they will do after.. Wish I had a link to show you Gives what hate they have at that moment when it goes off and next few secs as it being used at a limited transfer. If your in a non agro getting group then it's ineffective. hence your with lets say 2-3 healers, a scout, a mage, and joe blow then your agro isn't high up on the list. While group with 1 iquis, 1 DPS scout, a bruiser, a coercer, and any other joe blow. they will 9-10 times get agro. Rescue <IMG alt="Submitted By: marius_ab / Killa" src="http://dbms.ogamingmedia.com/eq2items/6485/image/RescueMASTER1.jpg"> again read the spell, 10 mins recast, makes you priority by 3..Sigil of Heroism has no such thing or even a threat attached just siphons a % of hate from group for a short time. Righteous Condemnation <IMG alt="Submitted By: Aelleor of Eidolon, Antonia Bayle" src="http://dbms.ogamingmedia.com/eq2items/20661/image/rcondemnm1.JPG"> Why would use it if you could do more damage with straight melee? and the heal benefit isn't really useful in raid situation only for soloing.

OrcSlayer96

11-14-2006, 04:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Immuen wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> redict wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Immuen wrote: Sigil of Heroism btw is a grey spell. What does that mean? Look it up, short version is supbar to current abilities. Enhancing a outgrowen spell is crazy to me. IMHO In my experience the spell only works if any member is currently getting agro. If your playing a MA role and MT goes down, mob is lookin for second on agro list. If nobody in your group is that person chances are most likely this spell isn't going to help. Only time it's totally efffective is agro is focused to your group, where you being MT or some major DPSer in the group. I personaly use it on pulls or setting up/position a named as a MT. Erm, u didn't get it. Sigil of heroism transfers the current aggro of the following 15/20 seconds to u, means the more aggro your group builds up, the higher your hate-position will be.=>mt is short before goind down: a rescue with round bout 3 mins recast. Righteous Condemnation is a subpar spell that I know most paladins don't use. Why? Simiple no real damage attached to it and the healing effect does even remove a scratch. If the healing effect was that of our single target heal then it be worth something. Even if u fairly use it, are all your spells up all the time? i can spam all my buttons and have a second where i can't cast. Question I have is why are all the AAs based to our magic? There is 1 towards fighter skills and that is blocking. Back in EQ1 any fighter abilities in AAs where through out the classes. Example double attack enchancements where offered then all fighters where offered it in the AAs. Hence all fighters have knowledge in the abilities but warriors where better at it. Message Edited by Immuen on 11-10-2006 04:02 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Hmm read the spell, tranfers a % of group hate. Not all, not what they have already builted up, and not what they will do after.. Wish I had a link to show you Gives what hate they have at that moment when it goes off and next few secs as it being used at a limited transfer. If your in a non agro getting group then it's ineffective. hence your with lets say 2-3 healers, a scout, a mage, and joe blow then your agro isn't high up on the list. While group with 1 iquis, 1 DPS scout, a bruiser, a coercer, and any other joe blow. they will 9-10 times get agro. Rescue <IMG alt="Submitted By: marius_ab / Killa" src="http://dbms.ogamingmedia.com/eq2items/6485/image/RescueMASTER1.jpg"> again read the spell, 10 mins recast, makes you priority by 3..Sigil of Heroism has no such thing or even a threat attached just siphons a % of hate from group for a short time. Righteous Condemnation <IMG alt="Submitted By: Aelleor of Eidolon, Antonia Bayle" src="http://dbms.ogamingmedia.com/eq2items/20661/image/rcondemnm1.JPG"> Why would use it if you could do more damage with straight melee? and the heal benefit isn't really useful in raid situation only for soloing. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>At least righteous condemnation has a lifetap associated to it, if you want a true example of a worthless spell, look at our former 2 hander only combat art line chastising strike, both do similar damage. As for the sigil of heriosm being ineffective, it all depends how you use it, create a macro that sends a group message that says for them to go crazy on agro for the duration of the spell and use ability command the sigil spell. That way the group knows they should be doing more agro and you will get the mob/s. If you are like many paladins lately, you will find yourself more often in dps heavy groups and not the multihealers groups you are talking about. My biggest problem is which wizard/warlock i toss amends on in a 2-3 warlock/wizard dps froup along with ranger and others.

Immuen

11-14-2006, 05:12 AM

Lifetap takes away health from a mob and returns most if not all to the caster. That is a SK ability. Righteous Condemnation is not a Lifetap. Chastening Strike was formerly a 2 handed sword only CA that later changed to any weapon. The damage on it is a joke IMO. MT goes down and you need to build up agro for more then a couple secs to get agro, then raid will wipe. 10-15 secs to gain more agro isn't going to help. Rescue FTW or MA should always be second or third on hate list. Bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mob will start killing off DPS 1 by 1 till A) MA/OT gets agro B)MT is rezzed and gets agro back C) there is no one left to kill. I am not like most Paladins, I am MA and will always be MA unless MT(zerker) is MIA then guess who is MT? Umm that be me. I am always setup to step up and take agro. That being said, I will have 1-2 DPS in my group and 1 is usually the top parser. Ahem amends FTW.

Wulfborne

11-14-2006, 05:37 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Wulfborne wrote:<div></div>I made the following post over on the Beta boards, hoping maybe they'll still be re-looking this line:I just ran around testing out the new blocking (it was raised from 20% to 24%) and I did notice me blocking more attacks than before, so it's definitely a step in the right direction. I would like to point out, however, that now in order to get that blocking mastery, we must max out every single hero AA that we have. (Blocking mastery requires 20 AA spent in Hero). While I feel that this ability is decent, if not quite as much as I'd like, the other abilities in the hero line are simply not helpful enough to warrant having to max out an entire AA line for it. Hero 1 - Enhance: Righteous Condemnation - maxed out, it increases heal amount by 100% (lvl 57). At Master 1, this gives a heal of 226. Quite honestly, the heal amounts tied to this ability have been so small (relative to the paladin's health pool) that I have never seen a point to it. Even an increase of 100% is a mere 226 hp out of many thousand. Aside from the fact that this maxed out AA makes no notable difference in it's current form, a small heal attached to one combat art doesn't seem very 'heroic'. Suggestion: I'd like to see this ability replaced with something else more tank-esque.Hero 2 - Enhance: Ardent Belief - maxed out, it increases the wisdom amount by 50% (lvl 61). At Master 1, the spell description on Ardent Belief reads: Increases Str and Wis of group members (AE) by 54. So, the spell description is wrong on the enhanced version (BUG). In casting, my wis/str were 355/345 before casting the enhanced buff, and 435/398 after casting it. This increased my wis by 80 total, and str by 53. If the wisdom were indeed increased by 50%, it should have gone up by 81 (BUG of 1 wis) and str should have gone up by 54 (BUG of 1 str). Suggestion: That aside, I like the boost to wisdom, assuming resists will be harder to cap, but I'd also like the str to increase, or - lacking that, perhaps an Agi modifier added in.Hero 3 - Enhance: Blessing of the Reverant - maxed out, it increases maximum health amount by 60% (lvl 66). At Master 1, the spell description says that it increases max health by 587. Suggestion: This is not a bad ability, though I'd like to see it tweaked upwards juuuust a tad more. Also, that few HP (relative to the pre-existing pool) makes a smaller difference, so I'd honestly like to see this replace the Hero 1 line spot in the lineup.Hero 4 - Enhance: Sigil of Heroism - maxed out, it increases duration by 5 seconds (lvl 52). At Master 1, the spell description says that it transfers 36% of the group members' current threat to the caster, and lasts for 20 seconds. Suggestion: In practice with group situations, the 5 second increase hasn't made any notable difference. I was able to obtain good aggro before the enhancement, so this seemed to work identically to before the enhancement. In raid situations, this ability is not long enough or not powerful enough to assist the paladin to obtain or maintain aggro any better. Suggestion: Have the enhancement either increase the threat % transferred, or increase the duration further (or a combination of the two). Groups will not notice a difference, so increasing those 2 attributes is necessary for any difference in raid play.Hero 5 - Blocking Mastery - Increases shield effectiveness of caster by 24%. First, paladins don't cast this - it's a passive ability, so to be clearer the description should replace 'caster' with 'paladin'. Suggestion: I like the ability, but would still like to see it's effectiveness increased a bit more. Also, I'd like to see it sitting in a non-final ability position, possibly renamed to Enhance: Faithful Benediction (our defensive stance).Here is an example Hero lineup I think would help those int eh paladin community that wish to enhance their tanking abilities (all at Master 1 examples):Hero 1 - Enhance: Ardent Belief - at 5AA's, increases wisdom 50%, adds 25 agi.Hero 2 - Enhance: Sigil of Heroism - at 5 AA's, increases duration by 10 sec, increases group threat transfer to 38%.Hero 3 - Enhance: Blessing of the Reverant - at 5 AA's, increases maximum health amount by 70%.Hero 4 - Enhance: Faithful Benediction - at 5 AA's, increases shield effectiveness of paladin by 30%.Hero 5 (end ability) - Divine Barrier (whatever - gimme some credit for trying! <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"> ) - Greatly increases paladin's base resists to magical attacks. (The amount of increase would need to be something that would make a nice notable difference for casted attacks, but not so much as to make us completely AE immune or whatever. Should be a short term buff, with medium recast, imo).Anyway, that's the best I can come up with, given paladin requests I have read and experience myself, while not trying to encroach on other tanks' abilities.~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<div></div>Message Edited by Wulfborne on 11-10-2006 11:36 AM<hr></blockquote>Wow.....just wow. I'm a huge supporter of Paladins in raid tank roles but this is over the top. When I read the current beta info I thought it was actually very decent. This right here is asking too much. You want to block rate raised from 24% to 30% Dear god 24% is huge what do you want to be an avoidance tank? Sorry I just can't even put into words how over the top this is. Like I said when I saw the current version of the Hero line I was impressed and actually thought SOE did something right for once.</div><hr></blockquote>Well gee golly, mister! it's easy to call something over the top and then add no constructive ways to adjust it...Have you tried out the 24% block increase? It doesn't add an additional 24% on top of your current block %. Did you know that? So if you have 20% block with your current shield, and then get this AA, it gives you 24% of that 20%... (just under 5%, btw) for a grand total of 24% (since it rounds down) but we'll be suave and call it 25%. Woo! a whopping 5% increase for maxing the ENTIRE hero line. If you really think that makes a difference for paladin tanking, well... grats to you on whatever you're doing.Due to the very low change to avoidance is why I suggested the addition of agi to Ardent Belief (something many paladins have requested, btw, since we have the lowest mit of plate tanks, lowest hp pools of all tanks, and lowest avoidance of all tanks but possibly SKs). I threw an arbitrary number... Sorry if it wasn't one you agreed with.Sigil of Heroism - Like I meantioned above, at it's current state there's near zero point for the duration change. It makes no diff for a group, as we got aggro through the original use anyway, and no diff to a raid, since it wasn't enough to really do jack to get enough aggro there, either. Was this one "over the top"?Blessing of the Reverant? Too many HP for us to get, do you think?You say it was way over the top, but only mention the one thing. Ok, if that's too much and others feel the same, I won't be offended. I just offered up a suggestion, because honestly, the current Hero line won't do squat for most of us. If you have some suggestions on how to reduce these requests, or alter them, I'd love to hear them. I was simply trying to ping the Devs with some suggestions on improvements, instead of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing and whining that everything sucks and they can't do anything right. I mean hey, as long as I was asked to Beta, I'll give whatever feedback I can give. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</div>

OrcSlayer96

11-14-2006, 05:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Immuen wrote: Lifetap takes away health from a mob and returns most if not all to the caster. That is a SK ability. Righteous Condemnation is not a Lifetap. Chastening Strike was formerly a 2 handed sword only CA that later changed to any weapon. The damage on it is a joke IMO. MT goes down and you need to build up agro for more then a couple secs to get agro, then raid will wipe. 10-15 secs to gain more agro isn't going to help. Rescue FTW or MA should always be second or third on hate list. Bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mob will start killing off DPS 1 by 1 till A) MA/OT gets agro B)MT is rezzed and gets agro back C) there is no one left to kill. I am not like most Paladins, I am MA and will always be MA unless MT(zerker) is MIA then guess who is MT? Umm that be me. I am always setup to step up and take agro. That being said, I will have 1-2 DPS in my group and 1 is usually the top parser. Ahem amends FTW. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Lifetap may not be the best to desribe it but it was what came to mind to me at first when i do X amount of divine damge to the mob reducing its health and getting X amount health back. As far as Sigil being a snap agro tool, i never said that, it is a useful pull tactic as MT especially in zones like nizara where rampant mezzes and stuns/stifles hit you. It is alsoi helpful in conjuction of AOE spamming when adds come into promity of raid/group. If you want snap agro, fire off rescue or toss amends on a monk for single target fun. Amends is our best tool for agro but to ignore sigil is folly and try to use it in the wrong situation is almost as bad.

MeridianR

11-14-2006, 07:18 PM

Sigil is not snap aggro, but it can be used to build up aggro good enough. Just don't blow it in the first 10-15 secs on an encounter because normally the only hate you would really get would be from Wards, etc....since most dps won't go balls to the wall with a Paladin tank (or at least they shouldn't) in the first couple secs.<div></div>

Fatuus

11-15-2006, 01:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzak wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote: I made the following post over on the Beta boards, hoping maybe they'll still be re-looking this line: I just ran around testing out the new blocking (it was raised from 20% to 24%) and I did notice me blocking more attacks than before, so it's definitely a step in the right direction. I would like to point out, however, that now in order to get that blocking mastery, we must max out every single hero AA that we have. (Blocking mastery requires 20 AA spent in Hero). While I feel that this ability is decent, if not quite as much as I'd like, the other abilities in the hero line are simply not helpful enough to warrant having to max out an entire AA line for it. Hero 1 - Enhance: Righteous Condemnation - maxed out, it increases heal amount by 100% (lvl 57). At Master 1, this gives a heal of 226. Quite honestly, the heal amounts tied to this ability have been so small (relative to the paladin's health pool) that I have never seen a point to it. Even an increase of 100% is a mere 226 hp out of many thousand. Aside from the fact that this maxed out AA makes no notable difference in it's current form, a small heal attached to one combat art doesn't seem very 'heroic'. Suggestion: I'd like to see this ability replaced with something else more tank-esque. Hero 2 - Enhance: Ardent Belief - maxed out, it increases the wisdom amount by 50% (lvl 61). At Master 1, the spell description on Ardent Belief reads: Increases Str and Wis of group members (AE) by 54. So, the spell description is wrong on the enhanced version (BUG). In casting, my wis/str were 355/345 before casting the enhanced buff, and 435/398 after casting it. This increased my wis by 80 total, and str by 53. If the wisdom were indeed increased by 50%, it should have gone up by 81 (BUG of 1 wis) and str should have gone up by 54 (BUG of 1 str). Suggestion: That aside, I like the boost to wisdom, assuming resists will be harder to cap, but I'd also like the str to increase, or - lacking that, perhaps an Agi modifier added in. Hero 3 - Enhance: Blessing of the Reverant - maxed out, it increases maximum health amount by 60% (lvl 66). At Master 1, the spell description says that it increases max health by 587. Suggestion: This is not a bad ability, though I'd like to see it tweaked upwards juuuust a tad more. Also, that few HP (relative to the pre-existing pool) makes a smaller difference, so I'd honestly like to see this replace the Hero 1 line spot in the lineup. Hero 4 - Enhance: Sigil of Heroism - maxed out, it increases duration by 5 seconds (lvl 52). At Master 1, the spell description says that it transfers 36% of the group members' current threat to the caster, and lasts for 20 seconds. Suggestion: In practice with group situations, the 5 second increase hasn't made any notable difference. I was able to obtain good aggro before the enhancement, so this seemed to work identically to before the enhancement. In raid situations, this ability is not long enough or not powerful enough to assist the paladin to obtain or maintain aggro any better. Suggestion: Have the enhancement either increase the threat % transferred, or increase the duration further (or a combination of the two). Groups will not notice a difference, so increasing those 2 attributes is necessary for any difference in raid play. Hero 5 - Blocking Mastery - Increases shield effectiveness of caster by 24%. First, paladins don't cast this - it's a passive ability, so to be clearer the description should replace 'caster' with 'paladin'. Suggestion: I like the ability, but would still like to see it's effectiveness increased a bit more. Also, I'd like to see it sitting in a non-final ability position, possibly renamed to Enhance: Faithful Benediction (our defensive stance). Here is an example Hero lineup I think would help those int eh paladin community that wish to enhance their tanking abilities (all at Master 1 examples): Hero 1 - Enhance: Ardent Belief - at 5AA's, increases wisdom 50%, adds 25 agi. Hero 2 - Enhance: Sigil of Heroism - at 5 AA's, increases duration by 10 sec, increases group threat transfer to 38%. Hero 3 - Enhance: Blessing of the Reverant - at 5 AA's, increases maximum health amount by 70%. Hero 4 - Enhance: Faithful Benediction - at 5 AA's, increases shield effectiveness of paladin by 30%. Hero 5 (end ability) - Divine Barrier (whatever - gimme some credit for trying! <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0>) - Greatly increases paladin's base resists to magical attacks. (The amount of increase would need to be something that would make a nice notable difference for casted attacks, but not so much as to make us completely AE immune or whatever. Should be a short term buff, with medium recast, imo). Anyway, that's the best I can come up with, given paladin requests I have read and experience myself, while not trying to encroach on other tanks' abilities. ~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul Message Edited by Wulfborne on 11-10-200611:36 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Wow.....just wow. I'm a huge supporter of Paladins in raid tank roles but this is over the top. When I read the current beta info I thought it was actually very decent. This right here is asking too much. You want to block rate raised from 24% to 30% Dear god 24% is huge what do you want to be an avoidance tank? Sorry I just can't even put into words how over the top this is. Like I said when I saw the current version of the Hero line I was impressed and actually thought SOE did something right for once. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> As it stands, with a nice shield, the block percentage on beta (measured in overall avoidance increase) only gives you an additional 4% avoidance on a well decked out player. That’s it. Increasing it to 30% would most likely result in just a 1% increase in overall avoidance…still not that significant. You should play on beta and compare the stats between similarly clad players before shooting off the mouth. I know I have, and even with the 30% over 24% increase…guardians would still own us. The Reveant line would only give us like 270 more HP then what’s available now according to this list (a slap in the face since we are already the lowest HP class). I disagree with the increase in duration. I think we need a decrease on this timer like the guardians get on reinforcement to make it easier to use…say like a 10 second reduction per level (up to 50 seconds total). The divine barrier idea is good since the guardians get another anti 10 second kill ability at the end of this tree.

Twofeets

11-15-2006, 06:41 AM

Ive posted this elsewhere, but thought Id add the idea here too since its more along the lines of this thread. SOE is obviously trying to push us into a utility role. We are great group tanks. What many lack is a usefull posistion in a raid. The new conji pet (currently borked, but they're promising to fix it soon, lol) is the 4th archtype, a healer pet. This pet is an AA pet, which (when working ) will pulse a group heal, but the biggie is that it's rumored to have a 10% group hate reduction to non fighters. While I am able to tank trash epics, I do not expect to attain the mit of a guardian (or it would make them obsolete). Im far from uber, usually putting out 500-700 single target DPS (I tend to ward a lot, I can do about 600-900 DPS if Im not warding), and 800-1k+ DPS on groups of mobs (again, usually warding during this time). While Im happy with this, many apparently are not, and pallies have a hard time getting into raids (especially pickup raids). Many feel the greatest thing I bring to a raid is Amends. Often, even with an assassin or some such transfering hate, guardians struggle to maintain aggro against wizzies and warlocks. Amends allows them to crank out dps which may have not been possible without me being there. Even though its not damage I did, in many cases its damage thats not possible without me. To improve along those lines, I would like to see a group aggro reduction similar to what the conji's got. A 10% (or more) group hate reduction, in addition to our other abilities, would give most casual raids a reason to pick us up. True, the raiding guilds have troubadors for this. They also have chanters and dirges to up the MT aggro, and all kinds of other goodies. But for the majorities of casual raiders, they key classes are often in limited supply (or simply not present). Perhaps it's one more niche we could fill without taking over another classes role.