Off Group Babysitter

[Quda]

<DIV>I love my pally, and have became a great tank, but unless somethings are changed in EoF, I will be re-rolling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I rolled a tank, to become a tank.  I swallowed a lot of the "improvements" they thrown at us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But the more I look at this new expansion, the less I see a pally being a tank.  I honestly believe they are making a pally into a off group babysitter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't want to be an off group babysitter, healing the little ones when they get hurt, and minor dpsing when they are ok.  A tank should be able to stand toe to toe with the mobs, slap it accross the face to make it mad, and laugh.</DIV>

[ronboga]

I know how you feel Ouda44. I main is a 70 lvl inquisitor and my alt is a 48 lvl paladin. THe inquisitor looks more and more like a pally with the new aa lines. With out the taunts of course.

[Rast]

Aye, this has disheartened me for some time now.  The paladin is a great solo class, but once you get into where you have to group, the quality of it's ability decreases and eventually you become a mit battery for the MT with some basic healing abilities...

[Lairdragna]

It appears around 95% of the paladins posting here fall into the spectrum ranging from downright disappointed to abject anger...  This is not a good thing.  <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

[Crib92]

<P>I must be one of the 5%.  While there are things that I want improved, I don't subscribe to the complete doom and gloom.  I just got in beta so I need to check out the changes for my self.  Hopefully they aren't as bad as folks suggest.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[lavasoul]

<DIV>Its good that you got into beta. Beside testing your paladin out try looking at other plate tanks and what they are getting and see if you still feel the same after that.</DIV>

[Crib92]

<P>I've been away for a week or so and I come back and see a billion negative posts.  Honestly, I've never seen it this bad.  I'm almost afraid to look to be honest.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Lairdragna]

I just spent a couple hours playing with the new AAs... they are pretty much yucky.What is looking like the path to go now is Wrath to increase DPS and healing to reduce power cost and cat/recast times.So either reinforce our role as a healer... 2nd rate at that... or as a half-arsed off-tank wannabe DPS class via wrath line.My question is why did they eliminate the pledge of armament penalty reduction choice?  A 700 mitigation buff for the group that doesn't land on tanks?  WHY?The troubador gets an AA that adds the casting range that will put dps casters and healers out of AOE range unless the AOE is raid wide.  Plop a troub in that group and let them stand way back.  Why do they need mit if they are out of range of any physical aoes?Sorry, I tried my best to tinker with them and see what worked, but nothing impressed me a great deal.I thought maybe Consecrate had some potential by cramming  1 minute of damage into 35 seconds.  Ummmm ok, so effectively what you did was reduce recast time by 25 seconds, but it did not make the spell more effective.  I would have liked a damage increase, or a power reduction.  I'm just not impressed with the reduction in duration.<div></div>

[lavasoul]

<DIV>Yea like I said in one of the other thread that the majority of us will go with the heal and wrath line. I ask other paladins I met on beta and they all went with the same line. </DIV>

[Arraza]

<P>Haha... Whitefang you must have gotten Phov's spot!</P> <P>Remember DO NOT be passionate! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Kaleyen]

<blockquote><hr>lavasoul wrote:<div>Yea like I said in one of the other thread that the majority of us will go with the heal and wrath line. I ask other paladins I met on beta and they all went with the same line. </div><hr></blockquote>Because of the nature of PvP I'll be going down the support line as well...but let me state this is ONLY for PvP reasons, has NOTHING to do with raiding whatsoever.<div></div>

[Gynx20]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lavasoul wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yea like I said in one of the other thread that the majority of us will go with the heal and wrath line. I ask other paladins I met on beta and they all went with the same line. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Because of the nature of PvP I'll be going down the support line as well...but let me state this is ONLY for PvP reasons, has NOTHING to do with raiding whatsoever.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Liluk how bad is it for us PvPers?</P> <P>Dont lie to me ok, give it to me straight!!</P> <P>Can we at least go from being afraid of the groups of greys to running from the greens?</P>

[lavasoul]

<DIV>We do ok in PVP its just the PVE that we will fall to our knees.</DIV>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gynx2003 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Kaleyen wrote: <blockquote> <hr> lavasoul wrote: <div>Yea like I said in one of the other thread that the majority of us will go with the heal and wrath line. I ask other paladins I met on beta and they all went with the same line. </div> <hr> </blockquote>Because of the nature of PvP I'll be going down the support line as well...but let me state this is ONLY for PvP reasons, has NOTHING to do with raiding whatsoever. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Liluk how bad is it for us PvPers?</p> <p>Dont lie to me ok, give it to me straight!!</p> <p>Can we at least go from being afraid of the groups of greys to running from the greens?</p><hr></blockquote>Well in raid vs raid we can be the hidden healers!  They'll all be going after the fury's and wardens and clerics and such and we'll just be laughing our [Removed for Content] off as we chain cast group and single target heal?Ya ya...I'm now going to be a Ninjatemplar....new class</div>

[Marcula]

<P>I absolutely love my Paladin but I am referancing a PvP Pally and not a PvE one. Hearing all the complaining makes me think you should all roll a PvP Pally and see how [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] deadly you can be. Just an opinion of course.</P> <P>Wanderingwilly - Venekor</P>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Marcula wrote:<div></div> <p>I absolutely love my Paladin but I am referancing a PvP Pally and not a PvE one. Hearing all the complaining makes me think you should all roll a PvP Pally and see how [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] deadly you can be. Just an opinion of course.</p> <p>Wanderingwilly - Venekor</p><hr></blockquote>Yeah, PvP Paladin here on Venekor, roll up into T7 we get taken back a bit.  In my 40s and 50s I was able to take on scouts too! :O</div>

[ChopStix]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Marcula wrote:<BR> <P>I absolutely love my Paladin but I am referancing a PvP Pally and not a PvE one. Hearing all the complaining makes me think you should all roll a PvP Pally and see how [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] deadly you can be. Just an opinion of course.</P> <P>Wanderingwilly - Venekor</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>but you have 174 kills and 164 deaths, how can you say that?  you love your paladin thats great ,but you will soon see the light as you level up...</P> <P> </P> <P>danlar lvl70/50aa's- VoX</P>

[Lairdragna]

Many of us despise PvP and are [Removed for Content] as hell that these changes appear to be designed to benefit pallies in PvP when we were expressly told that PvP mechanics would NEVER effect PvE...I think that it is perfectly acceptable to design an AA line for PvE and one for PvP... both are legitimate play styles and you should play what you enjoy.  The majority of players however are PvE and are being gimped by an AA set-up designed for PvP... and that just isn't right!<div></div>

[Unwise]

<DIV>I have been browsing through the forums and I have to say that the paladin community here is the most depressed I have seen. Every class area has alot of people letting off steam and being morose, but this forum takes the cake. I'm not making a call as to whether it is justified, I know jack-all about paladins, just making an observation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A few things I have found missing in this forum that strike me in their absence:</DIV> <DIV>1. A beta paladin not just reporting pictures of the spells, but describing how things play now, do they notice a difference, what abilities have been useful in what situations, that sort of stuff.</DIV> <DIV>2. I have not see anyone describe how to make the most out of any of the combinations, or how the end abilities of each line may be used effectively. How adornments can be used with AA enchanced abilities etc.</DIV> <DIV>3. A report on generic combat changes, I think these may effect every fighter more than any AA line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its as if this forum has all the worst aspects of other forums but none on the helpful information. Sorry to contribute to the negativity...</DIV>

[Wulfborne]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Unwise wrote:<div>I have been browsing through the forums and I have to say that the paladin community here is the most depressed I have seen. Every class area has alot of people letting off steam and being morose, but this forum takes the cake. I'm not making a call as to whether it is justified, I know jack-all about paladins, just making an observation.</div> <div> </div> <div>A few things I have found missing in this forum that strike me in their absence:</div> <div>1. A beta paladin not just reporting pictures of the spells, but describing how things play now, do they notice a difference, what abilities have been useful in what situations, that sort of stuff.</div> <div>2. I have not see anyone describe how to make the most out of any of the combinations, or how the end abilities of each line may be used effectively. How adornments can be used with AA enchanced abilities etc.</div> <div>3. A report on generic combat changes, I think these may effect every fighter more than any AA line.</div> <div> </div> <div>Its as if this forum has all the worst aspects of other forums but none on the helpful information. Sorry to contribute to the negativity...</div><hr></blockquote>OK, I thought I had hit a lot of those points, but let me try to make a concise post addressing some of these points in case others are looking for them.Disclaimer: The following information is all based upon what I personally have experienced. Anything that has been TOLD to me has not been included, as I can neither confirm nor deny that info.<~~~~~Beta paladin.1) How things play: actual play looks and acts the same that it ever has. I'm not sure what to report about 'play' that won't be covered in number 3 below. I definitely notice a difference, but mostly in the generic combat differences, so will elaborate in number 3. What abilities were useful in what situations? Well, the wrath line has actually made me put up MORE dps in beta (when used against groups) than I can do on live currently (Along with my melee and spell crit abilities, I was regularly hitting for over 1k per mob, per aoe). So... yay for more DPS on groups. The heal line...I honestly don't notice the decrease in cast time, it's so miniscule, but the power doesn't get drained when you have to just spam heal the way it does on live. So to recap, you can do better dps on group encounters, and when in 'heal mode and NOT tanking, you can put up respectable heals, especially with the end-line ability, Arch Healing. The utility line seems a little blah and extremely situational. Lessened recast on rez, but the distance and cast times havent changed, so it's still kind of a waste, imo. You can now give non-fighters in your group up to 700 mit, which might be good for some scouts, or maybe the occasional healer that has to get into melee ae range to toss a heal on the mt. otherwise, no one else will likely benefit, as they are fighters or casters that should remain outside splat range anyway - except maybe in small groups, or the over zealous finger-waggler that blasts with wreckless abandon which you will save from getting 1-shotted. Just make sure the MT is on the ball and gets aggro back immediately, or they will die anyway. Oh, you can increase the trigger rate of your group divine damage proc, so I guess that would increase dps a little, though in my experience I didn't really see much of a difference. The hero line is simply a joke, and none of it made ANY notable difference in play. a couple hundred HP made no difference. An increased duration sigil of heroism had the same effect for a group that the original had, and it was not long enough duration to make a difference on raids. The shield block might be useful in some tanking situations where you are using a shield, but 20% in block equates to approx 4% avoidance... I'd have really hoped for more in an end-line ability.2) The best combo I was able to come up with was a mix of healing (to include Arch healing) and wrath lines. Any increase in healing abilities was far better than the 'hero' line for both healing and tanking, and the wrath line could arguably help in maintaining aggro on group encounters somewhat, as well as increasing group encounter dps. Though I would have liked to keep the 20% increase to blocking in that, I simply couldn't find adequate justification for spending 15 points in the hero line, plus another 5 for that ability. Arch Healing as an end ability is nice, adding another heal to help us fill out that aspect of our class. The cure is ok, but far to situational to warrant the dropping of AA's into all the items to acquire it imo. Smite evil looks cool with the big numbers on paper, but the reality is that all groups I fought had either ZERO 'evil' classes in them, or at best, maybe half. The problem is you don't know this until you wait through the lengthy cast time, only to learn you wasted time in which you could have been healing, dpsing, or taunting. Adornments are nice. There are so many variants I can't begin to explain them all. there are a few with mit, resists, raw stats, etc. as well as procs, damage shields, heal procs, dps and haste modifiers, etc. In a nutshell, the more of these you get, the better. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />3) As a general rule, all stats, DPS and mitigation have been reduced on PCs. This mainly affects your gear, as I didn't *notice* any change to actual spells. However, the devs state that the same things have been reduced on the mobs. This definitely seems the case in KoS areas, as I actually had BETTER survivability (with a full EoF AA line, adornments, cloak and earring plus diety abilities) than I currently have on live servers. However, when I tried out the EoF zones, those mobs hit like a truck (I'd assume due to no new toold to offset their damage), and interrupted my spells so badly, I was nearly unable to function in a MT-type position for even group play.I hope that helped some, even though I didn't toss out a lot of numbers and whatnot. I've been playing Beta for a few weeks now and this has all been first hand experience and impressions.~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</div><p>Message Edited by Wulfborne on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:14 PM</span>

[Lairdragna]

When we find something positive or "helpful" to post, I am sure we will.  Beta buff a paladin and take her for a spin... then beta buff an sk, guardian, zerk, monk or bruiser and tell me what you think.<div></div>

[Marcula]

<P></P> <HR> <HR> but you have 174 kills and 164 deaths, how can you say that?  you love your paladin thats great ,but you will soon see the light as you level up... <HR> <HR> <P>Most of those deaths occured when I was beginning and had to do with play style (And exile lol) <FONT color=#ffff00>not the abilities that a Paladin posesses</FONT>. I at first adopted a never retreat style of play where I would repeatedly charge into opposing raids for truth and justice and I never backed away from a fight.</P> <P>I have modified this style of play (somewhat....as I attacked a 70 yesterday) and my kills are racking up.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Titles and kill ratio will never be markers for how well a class does in PvP nor does it accurately portray someones PvP skills. Your reputation and actions in the field of battle is all I use to judge someones skill set.....the rest is fluff.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Thus far I have only soloed or duoed (with my ranger pal Whiskyjack) and will be grouping as I get closer to the higher levels I suppose. I am gearing my AA line to benefit the group as a whole in preperation for this change.</FONT></P> <P>Wanderingwilly</P>