Consolidated Live/EoF Paladin Issues

[MeridianR]

Alright, since we have a ton of posts scattered all around, this is going to be our "issues" post....please keep the flames away, and DO NOT post that you think the class is fine.  If you do, that is fine and dandy for you, but this post is about the issues the majority of the community feel we have.I will edit this post, to keep a running list.  My issues will start below this, so I can keep this post clean.Paladin Issues:  <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div></div>In no particular order atm:1) Poor AA choices in both KoS and EoF:In KoS or EoF, we have no tanking specific AA lines.  No mitigation, no avoidance, and a skill in Divine Aura which really doesn't work well against Epic mobs, due to absorbing only hits that are less then 50%.  With EoF, we seem to be going towards the more support tank / secondary cleric role.  Also (while I have nothing personally against PvP people), we have an end line that is totally dedicated to just PvP, which is insane.  Block is capped at 20% so the one maybe worthwhile AA (unless we hear otherwise) will not give us anything, other then raising block with a 2h. 2) Lack of Avoidance buffs Including EoF AA's, we have NO +parry, or  +defense self buffs.  Our Defensive stance, unlike a Warriors does not have +parry, and for that reason we can never get near capping it, even with a Dirge running there parry song.3) Lowest mitigation of any tank class:With SK's getting changes to despoil and there new lifetap like mitigation AA's, we now have no temporary mitigation buffs, and have the lowest total mitigation because of it.  Our buff is a group armament, which again puts us in the support tank / class role.This is all I have right now, due to running late for a meeting, but I will add in more. <div></div><p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:29 AM</span>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>In no particular order atm:<BR><BR>1) Poor AA choices in both KoS and EoF:<BR>In KoS or EoF, we have no tanking specific AA lines.  No mitigation, no avoidance, <FONT color=#ff0000>and a skill in Divine Favor</FONT> <FONT color=#0099ff>(Isn't this Divine Aura? Divine Favor was our anitdeath spell I thought)</FONT> which really doesn't work well against Epic mobs, due to absorbing only hits that are less then 50% <FONT color=#0099cc>(It doesn't even work then per steels posts before)</FONT>.  With EoF, we seem to be going towards the more support tank / secondary cleric role.  Also (while I have nothing personally against PvP people), we have an end line that is totally dedicated to just PvP, which is insane.  <FONT color=#ff0000>Block is capped at 20% so the one maybe worthwhile AA (unless we hear otherwise) will not give us anything, other then raising block with a 2h </FONT><FONT color=#0099cc>(In EoF I thought it was stated you will not be able to block unless you have a shield equiped)</FONT>.<BR><BR>2) Lack of Avoidance buffs<BR>Including EoF AA's, we have NO +parry, or  +defense self buffs.  Our Defensive stance, unlike a Warriors does not have +parry, and for that reason we can never get near capping it, even with a Dirge running there parry song.<BR><BR>3) Lowest mitigation of any tank class:<BR>With SK's getting changes to despoil and there new lifetap like mitigation AA's, we now have no temporary mitigation buffs, and have the lowest total mitigation because of it.  Our buff is a group armament, which again puts us in the support tank / class role.<BR><BR>This is all I have right now, due to running late for a meeting, but I will add in more.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Other issues I would add to this list...</P> <P>1) Hate transfers lower then ours overwritting our hate transfer buff. This includes the assassin, warlock, wizard, and swash hate transfer buffs.</P> <P>2) Divine Favor (even at master I) hardly ever works for me as an antideath spell...I die about 95% of the time even when I have it up. The spell is supposed to work 100% of the time, even at adept I...yet it hardly ever works for me.</P> <P>3) Now with Stat restrictions being lifted we are supposed to have the largest power pool available among all the healer classes. The problem with this theory is that it will be the SK class that will shine since now we are the only fighter class that will need to focus on 5 different stats. SK's only need to focus on 4 and can ignore WIS entirely.<BR></P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Fatuus wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote:In no particular order atm:1) Poor AA choices in both KoS and EoF:In KoS or EoF, we have no tanking specific AA lines.  No mitigation, no avoidance, <font color="#ff0000">and a skill in Divine Favor</font> <font color="#0099ff">(Isn't this Divine Aura? Divine Favor was our anitdeath spell I thought)</font> which really doesn't work well against Epic mobs, due to absorbing only hits that are less then 50% <font color="#0099cc">(It doesn't even work then per steels posts before)</font>.  With EoF, we seem to be going towards the more support tank / secondary cleric role.  Also (while I have nothing personally against PvP people), we have an end line that is totally dedicated to just PvP, which is insane.  <font color="#ff0000">Block is capped at 20% so the one maybe worthwhile AA (unless we hear otherwise) will not give us anything, other then raising block with a 2h </font><font color="#0099cc">(In EoF I thought it was stated you will not be able to block unless you have a shield equiped)</font>.2) Lack of Avoidance buffsIncluding EoF AA's, we have NO +parry, or  +defense self buffs.  Our Defensive stance, unlike a Warriors does not have +parry, and for that reason we can never get near capping it, even with a Dirge running there parry song.3) Lowest mitigation of any tank class:With SK's getting changes to despoil and there new lifetap like mitigation AA's, we now have no temporary mitigation buffs, and have the lowest total mitigation because of it.  Our buff is a group armament, which again puts us in the support tank / class role.This is all I have right now, due to running late for a meeting, but I will add in more. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Other issues I would add to this list...</p> <p>1) Hate transfers lower then ours overwritting our hate transfer buff. This includes the assassin, warlock, wizard, and swash hate transfer buffs.</p> <p>2) Divine Favor (even at master I) hardly ever works for me as an antideath spell...I die about 95% of the time even when I have it up. The spell is supposed to work 100% of the time, even at adept I...yet it hardly ever works for me.</p> <p>3) Now with Stat restrictions being lifted we are supposed to have the largest power pool available among all the healer classes. The problem with this theory is that it will be the SK class that will shine since now we are the only fighter class that will need to focus on 5 different stats. SK's only need to focus on 4 and can ignore WIS entirely.</p><hr></blockquote>Errr yeah Divine Aura <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[xjailbaitx]

Really don't understand, I just made a thread asking for the same thing, and listing all the issues I felt needed attention AND also stating this is the end of the pally class as a fighter and there are 2 new threads today stating these same things when I took the time to post BOTH these ideas in one, and asked for constructive input aswell. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

I didn't notice it, and since I am pretty much one of (if not the) biggest loud mouths about the class, I figured that I would start a thread.Feel free to add what you want to this thread, and hopefully we can get some attention.<div></div>

[xjailbaitx]

<div></div>Ok Just going to copy and past my post then and delete my thread. Hopefully we can all have a great constructive thread about changes to the pally class cause we need it now more then anytime in this games history. <i><strike></strike></i><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=30098" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=30098</a> <div></div><p>Message Edited by xjailbaitx on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:19 AM</span>

[Nevar]

<DIV>Ok, time for my 2 cents on our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. EoF AA choices - For the most part they arent all that bad if you want to go healer not bad at all, same for support and wraths. But the problem lies soloy with the Hero line imo. The + to hp = out to around 150 more so thats not all bad. But the blocking mastery is total crap. Gives you like 3 extra % avoidance and thats it. All they did was give us a big number with little benefit and hope we are satisfied with a big number. AND [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SMITE EVIL.</DIV> <DIV>My solution is take away the + to wisdom and allow us to upgrade amends 3-4%. The increase divine reduction on our taunt isnt worth points. Instead of that add a dmg amount to it maybe like 300-400 range. And the blocking mastery should turn into + parry and defense. maybe 6 per rank. That would be the best way to upgrade that.</DIV> <DIV>2. KoS AA Choices - I think our AAs are decnet for kos I really cant complain that much. Just I think we needed a bit more of a tank line. DA is useless but I like the rest of the line. Wis I dont like at all. Int is prolly our best line imo. Crits, can never go wrong there. Agil line = terrible cause of the horse thing. And Str is decent never really tried it but it doesnt have anything to draw my attention.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically imo from what I have found by playing this class, you are what you make of it. Yes we are prolly the only tank with no + to mit in our aas, we are the only class without someone type of aggro increaser as a tank ( could be wrong havent ween monk aas) and we are seeming to be pointed towards the support role with most of our best eof AAs being placed into the Support/healing lines. I am ok with that for now but I know a majority of the class hasnt gotten used to the way I play in raids. Phov I am sure knows what I mean. And yall deserve a line that increases your tanking ability and makes you a better option in a raiding situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my thoughts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MeridianR]

Itoock has it....you can't base the power and viability of a class, by using the top 1% as the guidelines.While I might come off as totally unhappy with my class, I still can and have done things most other Paladins won't be able to.  Other then Chel'drak and Matron I have tanked every encounter, and while I would have loved to tank those.....Guardians (and Zerkers) are just setup much better the handle them....but you can't base the class around me, or the other top end Paladins.....as a whole the class needs to either be buffed up some with tanking ability (parry and defense are more important come EoF then just raw mitigation) OR totally give us some more viable utility.  Including Debuffs (which we have none of, other then a divine), or some type of useful group buffs (Group Armament I am not sold on, since mitigation doesn't do [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] when you get hit with a 10k nuke).<div></div>

[Seomon]

<P><STRONG><U>The bad:</U></STRONG></P> <P>1) We're the only class that needs to focus on every single stat.<BR>2) We're the only tank that doesn't have temporary buffs for mitigation.<BR>3) We have +WIS in our defense line, and not something useful, like +parry.<BR>4) Our Mitigation is the lowest of any plate tank.<BR>5) Our DPS is the lowest of any fighter.<BR>6) Heals and Spells' casting timers are too long, and we get interrupted way too much for them to be very worthwhile while we are tanking. A fix to this could also be just adding +focus to our self HP buff.<BR>7) We have to use AAs to get what we've been asking for about our heals, which I think is crap.</P> <P><STRONG><U>The good:</U></STRONG></P> <P>1) Fizzles are going away.</P>

[CycoDelic]

<P>Needs:</P> <UL> <LI>Some temp mit</LI> <LI>reduced cast time on heals (too many interuptions)</LI> <LI>sure, many others could be listed, but these are the meat of it as I see it</LI></UL> <P> </P> <P>Phov, While I commend you efforts even while being retired (and with a new daughter, I might add), unless you have PM'd someone and have some inside 411 that the issues mentioned time and time again will be looked at... hell, forget looked at, at least <EM>acknowledged</EM> by a Dev, then if I want to continue playing the toon I have put so much effort into, then I am left to accept my fate.</P>

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><STRONG><U></U></STRONG></P> <P>1) We need more avoid and mitigation buffs<BR>2) We have +WIS in our defense line, and not something useful, like +parry.<BR>3) Our Mitigation is of the lowest setting even though we are supposed to be the defensive crusader<BR>4) Our DPS is the lowest of any fighter.<BR>5) Heals and Spells' casting timers are too long, and we get interrupted way too much for them to be very worthwhile while we are tanking. A fix to this could also be just adding +focus to our self HP buff.<BR>6) SKS get an entire EOF tree line to increase hate we get our sigil of heroism duration to last longer, no increases in tautn effectiveness no increase in amends effectivenes we will hold less agro now than SKS making us a poor choice for off-tanking.<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>The last one is a big one - we have no way to increase our hate gain except for sigil while Sk's get an entire line increasing all of there taunts PLUS rescue.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Fatuus]

Its pretty simple, the devs don't care about our class anymore, SOE doesn't care about their customers anymore. I would hope with the length of time they have had working on this expansion...they could come up with some creative ways of improving our class...but a 3% avoidance bump is actually LAUGHABLE. Its so sad its completely pathetic. As stated in another post, I will be retiring my paladin class like others before me because I will simply no longer be needed on raids....and be the most worthless class in the game.

[MeridianR]

Actually if what I believe just happened, happened....I am done with this list, done with my Paladin, and done with Sony....So if someone wants to copy this post and make there own, go ahead.<div></div>

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR><STRONG>Actually if what I believe just happened, happened</STRONG>....I am done with this list, done with my Paladin, and done with Sony....<BR><BR>So if someone wants to copy this post and make there own, go ahead.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And what just happened?<BR>

[MeridianR]

Not going to go into it,  but what did happened has soured me on this game.  What I will say, is it has nothing to do with any new changes, so don't think that.  Go on and fight the good fight people...but I am not going to be taking part in it.<div></div>

[Rast]

<P>What does the Paladin need...</P> <P>It needs to have a purpose, which right now it does not have.</P> <P>We can tank, but we aren't the best choice</P> <P>We can heal, but we aren't the best choice</P> <P>We can off tank, but we aren't the best choice</P> <P>We can tank assist, but we aren't the best choice</P> <P>We can taunt, but we have weak agro control</P> <P>In short, anything we can do, can be done by someone else better.  We do NOT need to be guardian lites, we need to be Paladins and have some ability that makes us desirable to groups on that fact alone.  Right now, the only thing we have going for us is flexibility and in EQ2, that is a near worthless trait.</P> <P>The one thing we have is our ability to tank vs resists (due to our reliance on wisdom).  Perhaps it isnt' the class that needs to be changed, but the content.  Our 'speciality' may be already there, but not utilized due to the clone oriented nature of melee damage in the game right now.  My spreading out the damage types more (in heroic AND raid content) it would expand the need for paladins and give us a place where we could shine as a tank.  Where mitigation isn't as important as some other aspect of the game for the tank.  Open up weaponry that can do variant damage (converting slashing to divine or fire, or electrical, etc).  It would open up a whole new aspect to the game, and I believe it would pay nothing but dividends to the paladin class.</P>

[Rast]

come on Meridian, clue us in.  We can't afford to lose someone like you around here.

[MeridianR]

Also it has nothing to do with any specific posters at all, so please don't think that.  While I generally like to argue on these boards I hold no ill will towards anyone who tries to get there opinion out....whether I agree with it or not.<div></div>

[Nevar]

Yea I am kinda curious what happened to there phov, was kidna sudden <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rast]

What ever it was my friend, I wish you well.  It is sad to lose a person whom you respect on forums like this, but if it is your time to move on, then it is your time to move on.

[Wulfborne]

<DIV>Meh. I'm tired of seeing so many veteran Paladins shelfing their toons because of the perception that SoE simply doesn't care. How hard can it be to respond to one of the many posts we have, begging for some teaking? Begging for direction? Begging for ANY SIGN that we're being looked into?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Phov, if it's something bad enough to finally make you say F it, I wish you'd let us in on what happened. Lacking that, maybe you could state whether "it" will affect the entire paladin community, or someone did you a personal wrong?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</DIV>

[ChopStix]

<P>what is considered a top end?  is that a lvl 70 that raids, well i guess i fit there, ive done labs and lyceum, ascent, havent done HoS yet.. I'm also fairly new to this game i started in feb. 06..</P> <P> </P> <P> I didnt power level my guy, i worked on hq's and misc. quests and such trying to take in some content while mixing it with pvp play.. I chose a paladin from reading over the class descriptions and such: what a joke!!!!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>ok petaining to the paladin class. one of the first things i noticed is the difference in mitiagation, i always had less than the guardian with equal gear on... my resists were always higher though, is this the tradeoff we get?  doesnt seem fare as almost all mobs do exclusively crushing, piercing,and slashing damage along with someother type of damage ie:poision, divine, disease, arcane and the like.... Still no balance in my opinion because the resists can be brought up with gear to make a tank even more viable... just like a paladin can acquire gear to add to str,sta,agi,wisdom, int...but mitigation will always be higher on a guardian or zerker and a guardian and beserker doesnt need intellegence but a paladin does and its not acquired with the choices of armor out there....  why cant the paladins defensive stance have more mit added to make them a viable tank and maybe thier defensive stance also making thier heals even less effective, becuase if your tanking you shouldnt be healing anyways you should be taunting and putting some damage out to maintain aggro, and healers should be healing not you!!!!!!!!!!! or simply break the aa's down into a tank roll,in which mit will be increased and all heal values are reduced or done away with......... or a choice of an assist roll in which the mitigation is dropped some and the ward and heals are improved..  its pretty simple in my opinion..  a paladin is considered a fighter make him one, and not a healer, or if hes considered a hybrid fighter/healer make is aa's such, too where he can go either direction he chooses as a main tank with training focused on defense or training focused on healing...  but not both....</P> <P> as it stands, i dont see a paladin having a specific roll.... if this update is putting us as a superb assist to the main tank so be it, atleast we'll have a roll, especially if the combat revamp is going to make the other class's weaker as a main assist roll and make the paladin stand out as an assist, but i'm not seeing it... They could do so much with the paladin class if we had a choice in which way we wanted to go as a tank or an assist....  but if our roll is going to be reduced even farther to where we're stuck in a cloth wearing group it will make me totally sick, and will make us even weaker ,and make me want to slap a developer.. as it stands i either got in good with a beserker that liked my play style, or the paladin is actually a good main assist.. i think we're a very good main assist class, buffing the main tank and keeping him alive and giving him mitigation and some warding but i only heal when its a necessity, with the expansion and the mitigatoin buff going on non warriors only means we will definetly be stuck in a cloth group, unless our normal armament will still apply to plate warriors.....</P> <P> </P> <P>paladin needs if we're to be in the FIGHTER  class :</P> <P>more mit added ,to equal our mit with the guardian or beserker, and a little more avoidance</P> <P>one more taunt added to our spell list, or our taunts made stronger, or dps added to maintain aggro better...</P> <P>heals deleted, we're fighters not healers, leave the healing to the healers...</P> <P>do away with the paladins casted spells, and our need for intellegence.. OR make our damage output for casted spells related too wisdom instead of intellegence so we dont need both intellegence and wisdom. we're fighters we dont need to be intellegent :]  thats one of the biggest drawbacks as a paladin as i see it,  we're in the fighter class but half of our damage is based from casted spells and i see intellegence plate items in game so hard to find i feel thats why our damage output is lower than it should be...we're fighters not mages.. the intellegence issue is why the paladins i feel do so poorly solo and our dps is so low ..our int is so hard to get up in scale with str,sta,agi,wisdom and half of our damage is spell casted so our damage output drops drasticly.. in turn if you equip int items you drop str, sta , agi.. as a tank you cant do this and this is where we're getting screwed...</P> <P>pretty simple the way i see it..</P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:19 PM</span>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChopStix wrote:<BR> <P>what is considered a top end?  is that a lvl 70 that raids, well i guess i fit there, ive done labs and lyceum, ascent, havent done HoS yet.. I'm also fairly new to this game i started in feb. 06..</P> <P> </P> <P> I didnt power level my guy, i worked on hq's and misc. quests and such trying to take in some content while mixing it with pvp play.. I chose a paladin from reading over the class descriptions and such: what a joke!!!!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>ok petaining to the paladin class. one of the first things i noticed is the difference in mitiagation, i always had less than the guardian with equal gear on... my resists were always higher though, is this the tradeoff we get?  doesnt seem fare as almost all mobs do exclusively crushing, piercing,and slashing damage along with someother type of damage ie:poision, divine, disease, arcane and the like.... Still no balance in my opinion because the resists can be brought up with gear to make a tank even more viable... just like a paladin can acquire gear to add to str,sta,agi,wisdom, int...but mitigation will always be higher on a guardian or zerker and a guardian and beserker doesnt need intellegence but a paladin does and its not acquired with the choices of armor out there....  why cant the paladins defensive stance have more mit added to make them a viable tank and maybe thier defensive stance also making thier heals even less effective, becuase if your tanking you shouldnt be healing anyways you should be taunting and putting some damage out to maintain aggro, and healers should be healing not you!!!!!!!!!!! or simply break the aa's down into a tank roll,in which mit will be increased and all heal values are reduced or done away with......... or a choice of an assist roll in which the mitigation is dropped some and the ward and heals are improved..  its pretty simple in my opinion..  a paladin is considered a fighter make him one, and not a healer, or if hes considered a hybrid fighter/healer make is aa's such, too where he can go either direction he chooses as a main tank with training focused on defense or training focused on healing...  but not both....</P> <P> as it stands, i dont see a paladin having a specific roll.... if this update is putting us as a superb assist to the main tank so be it, atleast we'll have a roll, especially if the combat revamp is going to make the other class's weaker as a main assist roll and make the paladin stand out as an assist, but i'm not seeing it... They could do so much with the paladin class if we had a choice in which way we wanted to go as a tank or an assist....  but if our roll is going to be reduced even farther to where we're stuck in a cloth wearing group it will make me totally sick, and will make us even weaker ,and make me want to slap a developer.. as it stands i either got in good with a beserker that liked my play style, or the paladin is actually a good main assist.. i think we're a very good main assist class, buffing the main tank and keeping him alive and giving him mitigation and some warding but i only heal when its a necessity...</P> <P> </P> <P>paladin needs if we're to be in the FIGHTER  class :</P> <P>more mit added ,to equal our mit with the guardian or beserker, and a little more avoidance</P> <P>one more taunt added to our spell list, or our taunts made stronger, or dps added to maintain aggro better...</P> <P>heals deleted, we're fighters not healers, leave the healing to the healers...</P> <P>do away with the paladins casted spells, and our need for intellegence.. OR make our damage output for casted spells related too wisdom instead of intellegence so we dont need both intellegence and wisdom. we're fighters we dont need to be intellegent :]  thats one of the biggest drawbacks as a paladin as i see it,  we're in the fighter class but half of our damage is based from casted spells and i see intellegence plate items in game so hard to find i feel thats why our damage output is lower than it should be...we're fighters not mages.. the intellegence issue is why the paladins i feel do so poorly solo and our dps is so low ..our int is so hard to get up in scale with str,sta,agi,wisdom and half of our damage is spell casted so our damage output drops drasticly.. in turn if you equip int items you drop str, sta , agi.. as a tank you cant do this and this is where we're getting screwed...</P> <P>pretty simple the way i see it..</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Its not so much mitigation or avoidance or power, or health pool amounts (which btw currently we are the worst class at) its the fact that SOE doesn't want to give the paladin class a unique ability that sets if apart from the other classes.</P> <P>Going old school...LU 13 did a lot to save the paladin class as a viable tanking class. We could hold aggro a lot better then before, and often better then guardians and beserkers could. It was so bad that guardians and beserkers cried wolf...and screamed for a nerf....because while we were average doing everything else a tanking class could do...the one area that we excelled at was holding and maintaining aggro. In the right group or raid setup...holding aggro was virtually guaranteed if you needed it held against group mobs by a paladin. There were sacrifices a raid force did to maintain and do that....but it COULD be done.</P> <P>Now with the advent of EoF, there is not a signifigant boost to our ability to hold aggro (sigil lasting 20 seconds instead of 15 means diddy squat for a difference) while every other fighter class is getting MEANINGFUL abilities to increase their threat to a mob and encounter mobs.</P> <P>Basically the AA's that are given to us do NOTHING to help the paladin class tank better (not when compared to other classes aa lines) and what support aa lines we have are pretty much worthless. I am actually very happy and excited for the SK classes...its good to see the devs finally decided to throw them a bone since they still haven't fixed half that classes issues. But they still have no idea what to do with paladins.</P> <P>For tanking people say warding and healing is a great way to get aggro...the problem is its actually LESS aggro gained due to the insane casting times required by our heals. We are by far the WORST healing class in the game, and increasing that ability just makes us more warrior templars...NOT TANKS.</P> <P>Its lack of vision of what the paladin should be in the game that is forcing so many to abandon the class (including myself) now. Hopefully I will find the same enjoyment I got from my class in another class...but I doubt I will and will most likely quit the game in a month or so. This isn't BS this is reality...as many already in this game WHO WANT to tank high end groups and raids (not necessarily MT but it would nice to be considered a viable OT occasionally). THAT's the reality behind the story. KOS aa's for the crusaders SUCKED....this is just another slap in the face.</P>

[Rast]

<P>I agree, our taunts suck.  At 53, we have two (three if you count shield bash)...  One that is encounter only (worthless against adds) and one that is single target (again, worthless against adds).  This is a huge strike against paladin tanks.  Hell, I used to have problems holding aggro when a conjurer had a pet out (It's gotten better with the nerf to the conj pet, but at times it still steals the agro).  One of our best 'taunts' is our shield bash, which because of the stun shouldn't be used against epics (or at least certain epics that have violent reactions to stuns) so that is another of our arsenal out the window.</P> <P>I can't speak about higher since my Pally is only 53, but that is something I've noted as being a royal pain when I try to be a tank with a group.</P>

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote:<BR> <P>I agree, our taunts suck.  At 53, we have two (three if you count shield bash)...  One that is encounter only (worthless against adds) and one that is single target (again, worthless against adds).  This is a huge strike against paladin tanks.  Hell, I used to have problems holding aggro when a conjurer had a pet out (It's gotten better with the nerf to the conj pet, but at times it still steals the agro).  One of our best 'taunts' is our shield bash, which because of the stun shouldn't be used against epics (or at least certain epics that have violent reactions to stuns) so that is another of our arsenal out the window.</P> <P>I can't speak about higher since my Pally is only 53, but that is something I've noted as being a royal pain when I try to be a tank with a group.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What are you talking about I have no issues with our current taunt line up  I do have an issue with the SK class getting an entire line up of AA's straight down the line that increases there identical taunts that we have by increasing there taunt capaibilites and reducing the recast while we get..... 15secs added on to sigil and a a PVP only smite evil direct dmg crap. The fact is SOE messed up on these AA's big time. Paladins didn't roll a defensive tank to become 2nd rank healers. I for one thought our healing was in line for our class we had a few emergencies a group heal and a single target heal that worked well enough could there be an aa line to increase it sure. </P> <P>But alllllll we get is increase in dps line, increase in dps line, increase in dps line, increase in heal line. Thats total garbage. While the SK who I agree with the prior poster needed some much loving from the devs got 4 seperate and unique pathways to alternatively advanced there toon, while we have 2, increase dps or increase healing....</P> <P> Just an FYI paladins can and do do more than healing and dps- we can tank too. So if this is an ALTERNATE achievement system to further make our toons unique why are we not given a pathway to become better tanks - only the option to become better healers. A paladin by nature is half tank half healer, period. With these AA's we become sucky 2nd rate healers.</P><p>Message Edited by Knesh on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:02 PM</span>

[lavasoul]

<P>The life of this is class has probably reach its end. I've been testing in beta and looking at other fighters AA and looking back on the paladin is really sad. I already pre-order EOF and will probably play for abit when it goes live just to see how things go and if I'm still unhappy about where we are being placed amongst the plate class then I end up quiting myself.</P> <P>-We are the only plate tanks that require so many stats to work on and with how stats placd on gear now its impossible for us to raise them all. </P> <P>-We were told we are defensive archane tanks but resist is completely useless cause most high end raid mob does big crushing/piercing/slashing damage and their isn't really an encounter that calls for a plate tank that has high resist. Even with that warrior class are still more desirable cause with resist you can swap gear out and have other class to buff up your resist. The resist in this game is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] joke.</P> <P>-Our mitigation is the lowest on the list and added to that our avoidance too. With all the new AA that other fighters are getting we are toss on the side and not getting abit of love at all. We don't have a choice with this new expansion and are being forced into the support line.</P> <P>-While other fighter has their taunt buffed up thru the new expansion Paladin remain the same. Our taunt is divine base and get resisted a lot in PVP and PVE. The resist in this game is so messed up that its [Removed for Content] me off. I thought this is fix with the new expansion but from what a few of my friend and I experience in beta its still a problem (in PVP). I'm not just talking about paladin but for the mage classes as well.</P> <P>-Divine Aura needs to block 100% of all damage instead of the lower than 50% of your health. Its crap but I got it anyways just so I have something new to play around with.</P> <P>In beta I met a few paladin and guess what we all end up picking the same EOF line cause we don't have a choice. We all went with the Heal and Wrath line so that pretty much tells you of the choice we have or can we say forced to get. We get crap for AA compare to other fighters. The support line and Hero line is a complete joke.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by lavasoul on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 PM</span>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV> <DIV>Ok, time for my 2 cents on our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. EoF AA choices - For the most part they arent all that bad if you want to go healer not bad at all, same for support and wraths. But the problem lies soloy with the Hero line imo. The + to hp = out to around 150 more so thats not all bad. But the blocking mastery is total crap. Gives you like 3 extra % avoidance and thats it. All they did was give us a big number with little benefit and hope we are satisfied with a big number. AND [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SMITE EVIL.</DIV> <DIV>My solution is take away the + to wisdom and allow us to upgrade amends 3-4%. The increase divine reduction on our taunt isnt worth points. Instead of that add a dmg amount to it maybe like 300-400 range. And the blocking mastery should turn into + parry and defense. maybe 6 per rank. That would be the best way to upgrade that.</DIV> <DIV>2. KoS AA Choices - I think our AAs are decnet for kos I really cant complain that much. Just I think we needed a bit more of a tank line. DA is useless but I like the rest of the line. Wis I dont like at all. Int is prolly our best line imo. Crits, can never go wrong there. Agil line = terrible cause of the horse thing. And Str is decent never really tried it but it doesnt have anything to draw my attention.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically imo from what I have found by playing this class, you are what you make of it. Yes we are prolly the only tank with no + to mit in our aas, we are the only class without someone type of aggro increaser as a tank ( could be wrong havent ween monk aas) and we are seeming to be pointed towards the support role with most of our best eof AAs being placed into the Support/healing lines. I am ok with that for now but I know a majority of the class hasnt gotten used to the way I play in raids. Phov I am sure knows what I mean. And yall deserve a line that increases your tanking ability and makes you a better option in a raiding situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my thoughts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P> <DIV><IMG src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/bfa14/itoock03.jpg"></DIV><SPAN><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>11-07-2006</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:58 AM</SPAN> </SPAN> <BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I completely agree with this. The increase to Amends would keep with the class and greatly help with agro control if you could increase amends by 15% you could keep agro against [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near anything longs as your target was cranking dps. If avoidence and mitigation get changed the way they claim a plus 30 to defence parry would go a long ways do the diff in mit spells that War get wouldnt make us equal but would close the gap some cause they would be up all the time where thiers are temp.</DIV><p>Message Edited by hawsecav19d on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:54 PM</span>

[Lairdragna]

Phov, ummmm what happened?  Don't leave us in the dark.  PM us if you don't want to post it.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

So people can stop wondering.... a very high up redname (a senior redname) removed my beta rights due to being too passionate when posting about the class...<div></div>

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>So people can stop wondering.... a very high up redname (a senior redname) removed my beta rights due to being too passionate when posting about the class...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is so ghetto its not funny.

[Wulfborne]

<P>:smileysurprised:</P> <P>I simply don't know what to say about that...</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:So people can stop wondering.... a very high up redname (a senior redname) removed my beta rights due to being too passionate when posting about the class...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Wow</div>

[Lairdragna]

Wow... <span>:smileysad:</span>I just don't know what to say.  Wow...<div></div>

[Caetrel]

I could see a forums mod stepping in, or a dev responding to you on the forums (though that would mean a dev response posted here lol).  But revoking beta rights?  That seems way out of line, and kind of pointless because A)you already know what you need to know about beta and B) it doesn't shut you up on the forums. Why did this happen, were you offered an explanation?   Doing that to you seems pretty crazy, both heavy handed and unecessary. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

I don't want to post the exact PM from the person, but to sum it up - I was told that I am a <img src="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/SEBAST%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg" alt=""> <img src="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/SEBAST%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg" alt=""> very good and passionate player, but my comments did nothing to help....then good luck....and my beta forum and my access to the EoF Beta was revolked.<div></div>

[Rast]

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], that is pathetic.  I can understand why that would upset you so, I think my words back to said red name would have been none to polite and would have probably gotten me banned from the game.  Of course at that point I wouldn't ahve cared either.

[Lairdragna]

Maybe calmer heads will prevail and the Red in question will realize that was not an appropriate way to handle things.  Just as we can be rash to make comments, they can be rash in their decisions.  We are afterall, human.<div></div>

[Maveric_LOL]

<DIV>Oh hell no! They completely ignore us all this time while we ask for some balancing of our class. Yet somehow in the final days of beta when the real panic starts in they take time out of their busy schedule to silence the dissenters with ruthless efficiency?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have played this class from release day, but SOE has now managed to completely murder it in this expansion. Raiding has always been a part of this game in a group setting a paladin is a decent tank true, but even with the best gear we are 3rd rate raid tanks at best that can hardly hold aggro, healers that can’t heal and sub-par dps to say the least.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The description of the Paladin on the everquest 2 website says that “by invoking both protective and healing magic, the paladin can often survive battles that would crumble those of lesser resolve”.  That is either false advertising or something is fundamentally wrong with the class. Because, I know for one when I try to employ that ‘protective magic’ or ‘healing magic’ I get interrupted an annoyingly huge amount of the time. Now perhaps if they either completely removed the interrupts on wards and pally heals, or at least reduced it to a much lower % and boosted the wards and heals we could be more effective. Our wards and heals were the tools we were originally given to bridge the gap, and if that’s what SOE intended that’s fine, but those tools have to be able to close that gap in reality not just on paper.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think most of us are very upset at the direction SOE is going with the class in this new expansion and it’s starting to show now that we are getting close to it going live. People are starting to realize that SOE is not listening, and has no intention of listening, but that’s no surprise right, I think many of us saw the writing on the wall.<BR> <BR>I for one am not at all surprised that SOE is removing the beta access of those who have been most vocal on this matter; they have already decided what road they are going down, all they are doing now is eliminating the opposition.</DIV>

[Monfar]

<blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:So people can stop wondering.... a very high up redname (a senior redname) removed my beta rights due to being too passionate when posting about the class...<div></div><hr></blockquote>wow---Maybe it realy is time to split ways with SOE/EQ2.I was going to see how the expansion is but now I'm strongly thinking of cenceling my pre order.I have worked hard to show a paladin can be MT and got me the MT position in our guild but I fear my time has come to step back ..SOE has won , I give up.I love playing paladin and the chalanges the class always had fighting for an actual tanking spot , I don't realy like raiding with my Conjurer and will be thinking hard about my future in EQ2.2 years and we made a small step forward after lu13 from being a rez bot in Tier 5 , now we do 2 steps back from what I hear and read.

[Lairdragna]

How sadly ironic that there is a RIP icon next to your board name... <span>:smileysad:</span><div></div>

[Scadie]

<DIV>I´m really unbelievable disappointed.. and after the [Removed for Content] way how they done to phov... thats really MAD !!  I´m sure they won´t change anything in the entire game mechanics..  So SOE please put the paladin in the right subclass to the clerics.. They have nothing to do anymore with fighter class in my opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Change the class information on your homepage.. cause you´ll lose a lot of your customers step by step !!! I´m done with this class.. and after a small look in to eof even with SOE !!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Caetrel]

Trying to quiet a vocal and respected member of the community is uncool in the worst way. We need to speak up more, not less, in light of this. Phov, I hope you stick this out.  It's just the action of one person, however red their sig may be.  <div></div>

[redi]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:I don't want to post the exact PM from the person, but to sum it up - I was told that I am a <img src="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/SEBAST%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg" alt=""> <img src="file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/SEBAST%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg" alt=""> very good and passionate player, but my comments did nothing to help....then good luck....and my beta forum and my access to the EoF Beta was revolked.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Wow, that's a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]move ^2, but know what, if SOE's tryin to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] us up.....hell, now I'm fighting even harder to become MT or stay OT in raids. Middlefingers to the nerf-bat, nuff'said (btw, sorry for not being constructive)</div>

[Arraza]

<P>Wow... I am totally appalled.  What do they want from its player base if they don't want people passionate and knowledgable about their class?  This proves to me that they have absolutely no regard for the Paladin class, or much of its player base.  It also proves to me that they are READING our threads, but have NEVER had the decency to reply... only to stealth nerf someone who has the knowledge to help give some direction as to what we need.  Why bother even reading our forums, since they NEVER do anything about it?  Just let us wallow in our misery for gods sakes.  If you are going to ignore us, then do it wholeheartedly, not half-assedly.</P> <P>They had a chance with this expansion to give our class something unique that differentiates us from other classes and makes us useful to the community at large as well as the raiding community, and they have apparently blown it.  Were not asking to be BETTER than other classes, just to be useful.</P> <P>I have put a lot of time into my character, trying to make it the best it can be and now I feel like I have totally wasted my time.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>So people can stop wondering.... a very high up redname (a senior redname) removed my beta rights due to being too passionate when posting about the class...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[therodge]

<P>um wow just wow... </P> <P>i gotta say never been truly fond of phovs personality but i regard him as a great player and a respectable person, and to revoke his beta membership due to him being "Passionate?" thats a hit to the pally community as a whole, never thought id say this but, SOE you must be full of some pretty god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] uncaring people, i thought you wanted customers who were passionate about the game,  hope mr. red name is punished big time for this thanks for the slap in the face.</P>

[CycoDelic]

<P>Edit: Even tho the image I had posted was heartfelt, it was too harsh even by my own standards to post as public</P><p>Message Edited by CycoDelic on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:39 PM</span>

[EvilIguana9]

The issues can be distilled largely into a single question:  What can a paladin do solo || in/for your group || in/for your raid that another class could not do better?  The answer can be somewhat depressing.  As of today on live, Paladins are not horribly disabled.  We are, though, generally less capable overall than our competition.  The one place we really excel is in small group situations, but by and large the only meaningful small group progression is the level grind to the cap each time it is raised.  Worse still, EoF appears to be adding significant capability to other fighters while adding very little to us.  This serves to further widen the gap and ensure that we will be even less desirable to groups/raids.  What was for a long time our most desirable ability, our mastery of hate generation, has been marginalized by increasingly powerful aggro tools for the other fighters and an ever increasing number of stacking conflicts and outright bugs.  Let's be serious.  It does not matter if we are the best player in the game, have the best gear, and are the most popular person on the server such that we are never left out of a group/raid/guild (ok it does, but foir the purpose of the argument it doesn't), it will always suck to know that you could be more useful to your friends, able to confront more powereful opponent, or just plain be generally better at your job if you had just chosen another class.  Class balance is not an abstract concept that matters only to a few forum trolls.  It is a central component of the game.  It effects everyone and it needs to be very seriously considered when making gameplay decisions.  People do not want to be handicapped because the role they chose to play in this roleplaying game isn't truly viable.  People who feel impotent WILL get discouraged and WILL leave the game.  The devs will ignore balance issues at their own peril.  <div></div>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>ahhh so thats how they're fixing the class. just going to ban and revoke beta to the ones the developers should be listening too.. then the devs can say, well we didnt know....  Its a cop out, and censorship at its fullest!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Do we have a moderator in here that is beta testing a paladin and tanking with it? or do we even have a moderator at all that is playing a paladin class? if not, why are they and us even in here?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> With the expansion drawing very near, and as i cross too and read on other forums alot are disturbed with soe at the moment..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  if this is the lame way they are making this game out to be and nerfing the paladin class compared to the other class's they will not get my money, i didnt role a paladin to be babysitting in a mage group which offers no benefitting buffs to a paladin, and i will probably play until vanguard comes out then drop eq2 alltogether, then if sony gets its hands on development of vanguard i will quit it also.. to my understanding sony only has its hands on the billing of vanguard and not the development of it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>remember we are paying for the developers and i dont see the paladin class as a tank to the developers so they need to remove the paladin from the fighter class, which i think they actually have, and we're sitting in a lone class in the expansions class choices, atleast from a screenshot i saw on another forum..  actually with the expansion and the aa's choices that the paladin have we're falling closer and closer to the cleric class, we're now just a tweeked Templar as i see it, and nothing more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! with this being said, all that have rolled and played a paladin for over a year, are the ones soe need to put at the top of the list and actually listen too, all the ones that have palyed a paladin for a long time atleast the ones at lvl 70 with 50aa's are saying the same thing, yet nothing is coming even close to being what we need, or what we think we need ,so this tells me developers have chosen the path of the paladin as a cleric and not a tank, and not listening to any of us at all. and just doing what they want..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WHICH IS HACKING THE PALADIN CLASS EVEN FARTHER INTO UNUSEFULLNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is typical of soe and its flying updates, you know the Ninja updates!! it wouldnt suprise me if they put another nda on the beta, because of all the flak soe is getting..</DIV> <P>Message Edited by ChopStix on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:38 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:46 PM</span>

[Crib92]

<P>This is insane.  Phov, you don't deserve to be treated that way.  I hope that we are not experiencing a new "Management" style which indicates here is the product, take it or leave it.</P> <P>Beta is meant to be a forum for feedback, good, bad, and ugly.  If certain members of SOE are not able to take constructive feedback without bringing their personal feelings into their decision making, then we are in trouble.  </P> <P>As I have posted recently, I haven't had a chance to check out beta yet and hope to DL and try it out tonight.  I wonder if it's worth the trouble seeing as so many folks have been there and report nothing but bad news for the class.  I hold my own tanking right now but if the disparity grows even wider (In tanking skills) then I can't expect that I will be utilized as much as I am.</P> <P>I have to ask the question.... Is anybody listening?</P> <P>  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crib92 wrote:<BR> <P>This is insane.  Phov, you don't deserve to be treated that way.  I hope that we are not experiencing a new "Management" style which indicates here is the product, take it or leave it.</P> <P>Beta is meant to be a forum for feedback, good, bad, and ugly.  If certain members of SOE are not able to take constructive feedback without bringing their personal feelings into their decision making, then we are in trouble.  </P> <P>As I have posted recently, I haven't had a chance to check out beta yet and hope to DL and try it out tonight.  I wonder if it's worth the trouble seeing as so many folks have been there and report nothing but bad news for the class.  I hold my own tanking right now but if the disparity grows even wider (In tanking skills) then I can't expect that I will be utilized as much as I am.</P> <P>I have to ask the question.... Is anybody listening?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Huh were you saying something?

[Crib92]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crib92 wrote:<BR> <P>This is insane.  Phov, you don't deserve to be treated that way.  I hope that we are not experiencing a new "Management" style which indicates here is the product, take it or leave it.</P> <P>Beta is meant to be a forum for feedback, good, bad, and ugly.  If certain members of SOE are not able to take constructive feedback without bringing their personal feelings into their decision making, then we are in trouble.  </P> <P>As I have posted recently, I haven't had a chance to check out beta yet and hope to DL and try it out tonight.  I wonder if it's worth the trouble seeing as so many folks have been there and report nothing but bad news for the class.  I hold my own tanking right now but if the disparity grows even wider (In tanking skills) then I can't expect that I will be utilized as much as I am.</P> <P>I have to ask the question.... Is anybody listening?</P> <P></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Huh were you saying something?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Aye, sorry my post didn't meet your standards of excellence.  My bad. 

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crib92 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crib92 wrote:<BR> <P>This is insane.  Phov, you don't deserve to be treated that way.  I hope that we are not experiencing a new "Management" style which indicates here is the product, take it or leave it.</P> <P>Beta is meant to be a forum for feedback, good, bad, and ugly.  If certain members of SOE are not able to take constructive feedback without bringing their personal feelings into their decision making, then we are in trouble.  </P> <P>As I have posted recently, I haven't had a chance to check out beta yet and hope to DL and try it out tonight.  I wonder if it's worth the trouble seeing as so many folks have been there and report nothing but bad news for the class.  I hold my own tanking right now but if the disparity grows even wider (In tanking skills) then I can't expect that I will be utilized as much as I am.</P> <P>I have to ask the question.... Is anybody listening?</P> <P></P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Huh were you saying something?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Aye, sorry my post didn't meet your standards of excellence.  My bad. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/sarcasm off

[Lairdragna]

Well apparently, and this is just what I heard in a frantic phone call I received at the office today, a troubador was so upset that he "went phov" on the developers of the game and his account is gone... lock, stock and barrel.  I have no way of knowing whether this is true or not, but then again, no reason to doubt the person who called me to tell me what had happened.  He wasn't even aware of what had happened to Phov and his beta access, so he certainly wasn't "piling on."  He was just extrememly shocked and bewildered that something like this could happen.As I said before, I hope cooler heads will prevail and that Phov got his beta access back.  I don't think SOE realizes how much his and similar folks feedback is needed.  As more and more of my guildies are getting into beta, the more complaining I'm hearing from most classes...  However, some don't seem to be complaining much at all... they are celebrating.  Illusionists, Shadowknights, Wardens/Furies, Monks and Bruisers.I suspect when this all goes live there will be a huge backlash.  The fact is most players do not access the forums.  What they are likely hearing they are not relating to since they are not experiencing it first hand yet.   I think there is trouble on the herizon and it begins with an N and that satnds for NERFS.Not too late to turn this around SOE.  I know the discs are being pressed as we type here.  But you have a couple days to rework the AAs again based upon our suggestions and to work them through a weekend, tweak them and patch them on the 14th.  We have almost a week left, lets use it!Oh... and free Phov!<div></div>

[lavasoul]

<DIV>All I'm doing now is check the notes update everyday until it goes live and have my fingers cross. </DIV>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>The more I listen to other paladins the more I realize why they complain I only came over from eq1 in June of this year so I never saw the good days when Pally could hold agro to begin with. But most pal agree that a quick fix would be increase recast timers on heals and shorten the cast. If devs want us to be good offtank why not increase Sigil of Heroism to 100% of groups  agro that way if MT goes down we can be assured to takeing the mob till MT back up? Its not like asking to revamp the whole class just make us usefull. Any one of a few things would make the class a good option for MTing. Increase our Sta along with WIs in def stance since we get Str/Int in offence with eof caps coming off 130 extra Sta would go a good ways to makeing us better def tanks cause it take alot of hps to make up for mitigation its not a 1=1 trade off more like 2.5hps = 1 mit. For groups or instances Pal are great tank cause if the utlilty we get but for raids we are relegated to agro control healer some dps but mainly like alot of peeps are saying we are going to be babysitters. Unless you change the content of some zones to being undead only and highly susceptable to Devine attack there will be no reason for Pally anymore. Palliesywill either be shelfed or betrayed if somethings not done to show we are the class that sony said we would be.</DIV>

[Alir]

<DIV>Man Phov that is a bit on the silly side................  Bet the RED NAME was a Guardian!!!  I am giving exactly one month to EOF to fix what we want or I will also be parting ways with SOE and taking my $34.00 a month with me!</DIV>

[Canel]

<P>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...i know this has been said before but what a total thing of censorship--and to do it to basically one of the top ten vet pallys still on the forums is just 100% disgusting--> especially when its done right by a dev (and said before--this is the first time they've actually done anyting about responding to a pally and they revoke him- complete bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]). Prob is that Sony had the rights to do that as well :smileysad: the whole thing about the host company (Sony) being able to withhold these priviledges to ban/revoke ppl from game and forum... </P>

[Feydakeen]

<DIV>I just cannot believe this...</DIV> <DIV>After all you did for the pally class this is how it ends?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE...this is the way you create anger contempt, negativity and dying games.</DIV> <DIV>Even if Phov was too vocal you could still have tried diplomacy instead of resorting to banning no???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unbelievable... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[rya]

<DIV>The lack of mobs that does not do physical damage on auto attack aka the availablity of mobs that actaully is leaning towards paladin as a more suited tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How I wish there is a mob that does prismatic damage like divine/magic/mental/heat/cold/poison/disease all at once on auto attack and has a high damage divine/magic frontal AE or CA... Then people might actaully go "We need a paladin for this"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All is just a dream... just a dream...</DIV>

[JarredDarque]

Um..Vyemm perhaps?  He does a massive Magic Damage frontal I believe....and trust me, this does not send my guild running to grab me to MT it...it sends them running for another buff class to buff the guardians magic resist to 10k...

[rya]

<P>Hence I said non-physical auto attack damage AND high damaging divine/magic frontal AE and/or CA.</P> <P> </P> <P>Whatever it is, it has to be like least a combination of 3 or more non-physical damage type because its pis5 easy to be geared/buffed for single resist or two even.</P>

[Brigh]

Smite Evil has been changed to include undead, but it should include werewolves and other "evil" things, not just racial PC/NPCs.

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>JarredDarque wrote:<div></div>Um..Vyemm perhaps?  He does a massive Magic Damage frontal I believe....and trust me, this does not send my guild running to grab me to MT it...it sends them running for another buff class to buff the guardians magic resist to 10k...<hr></blockquote>Vyemm is actually a really easy fight for us to tank.....just get a nice aggro group, and a lot of our gear has magic on it (with our defensive stance) - add in a Templar and our resists are good enough.Mitigation wise, he doesn't hit that hard and as long as healers aren't spamming other people (mainly dps) cause they are getting owned with Tail lash or the cone, then you should be fine, even with tanking Alzid at the same time.  Though using Amnesia on him, and just tanking Vyemm is fine also according to the devs.</div>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<P>Oy again.</P> <P>I need to get caught up to speed on what's been going on in the last 8 weeks and start up my own rant-ness...</P> <P>Phov, I am personally offended for you.</P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pathin Merrithay wrote:<BR> <P>Oy again.</P> <P>I need to get caught up to speed on what's been going on in the last 8 weeks and start up my own rant-ness...</P> <P>Phov, I am personally offended for you.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, it feels like this forum has suddenly brighten up with Lady Saffira back in action...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Well met once again and hope to see ya more on crushbone...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Boethius_Permafrost]

As this is an EoF issue, I am consolidating.  I think the EoF achievements would grant us much more flexibility in choosing our path if each node only required two ranks to open up other nodes, and if the final abilities required only 16 points spent in one category.  This meets the design requirement of only 2 end abilities, since for someone to select three, they would need 3x16 + 3 = 51 points.<div></div>