Pally AAs, warning my leet Paint skills may astound you

[Nevar]

<DIV>Ok this is probably the worst AA listing you will ever see in your life but anyways enjoy!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i11.tinypic.com/4gpd5cj.jpg"></DIV>

[enjoilab]

<DIV>the only one that looks decent for me on pvp is smite evil...the rest can go to hell</DIV>

[Sedi]

<DIV>i was told that alot of Figher's AAs got changed recently, but these seems to be all the same as what they where before. did they not change pallys or just didnt change any fighters yet?</DIV>

[Nevar]

<DIV>I believe it was Illucide who said recently that the Fighter AAs would be adjusted soon. I took these screens tonight so nothing has changed for us atleast. But talking with few warriors and brawlers thier AAs are the same sicne the last time they were changed a little while back.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

...and now everyone sees' the crap a lot of us were talking about<div></div>

[RaistNA]

i tried to screenshot our AA's but every time i did, a small section on my harddrive became corrupt <span>:smileysad:</span> <div></div>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>i like some of them msite evil hey doing 1k damage to every evil class in the aoe is great IMO</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>reduced use timer for LOH i think i was told 11 minutes. not bad</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>faster casting on wards. hey 19 seconds is better then 24</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>being able to use refusal 45 seconds instead of one minute </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there are a few i dont like but hey something is better then nothing. </DIV>

[Wulfborne]

For what it's worth, those of us on beta practically screamed and begged for AA's that would help out our tankability. Though beta isn't over, and adjustments may yet still be made, it seems to have fallen on deaf ears so far. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<div></div>

[Boli32]

dunno about you but a lot of them look really nice. Enchanced shield block chance reducing penaties of grant armnament % increase to self health buff large heal (bigger than my furys large heal FYI) self curing more wisdom bonus and a few bonuses to healing. Paladin's have allways been in my mind the tank that can take a beating and at the same time heal themselves somewhat... with the new increase comign to powerpool this makes it more of possibility. I know I'm gona take a lot of flack from the hard line paladfin MT raiders but I really like the AAs I see here. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>boli wrote:dunno about you but a lot of them look really nice. Enchanced shield block chance reducing penaties of grant armnament % increase to self health buff large heal (bigger than my furys large heal FYI) self curing more wisdom bonus and a few bonuses to healing. Paladin's have allways been in my mind the tank that can take a beating and at the same time heal themselves somewhat... with the new increase comign to powerpool this makes it more of possibility. I know I'm gona take a lot of flack from the hard line paladfin MT raiders but I really like the AAs I see here. <div></div><hr></blockquote>We asked about the block cap, and never received an answer - with the cap as is now, this AA is not that greatPledge of Armament is worthless, even with the new caps it gives someone 1% - a mitigation buff is something priests get - we are tanks10% at rank 5 is 35 HP - yep that is huge!Self curing, is an end rank meaning you have to take a lot of the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] before it - but I would say this and the block (if the block cap is raised) are the best.More wisdom, yeah how much look at the AA.These are worthless, and we are the only [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing class who gets end lines that are made purely for PvP, which is horrible.As said above, a lot of us tried to get some changes, but never ONCE did we get any response.</div>

[SpyrerTheFirst]

just out of curiosity, the group armament that reduces the penalty of pledge of armament, with 100% does that mean you dont get any penalty when pledging yourself?<div></div>

[Kaleyen]

Wow...I don't have the words to express my dissapointment.<div></div>

[dminkey]

Those pictures aren't accurate after this last update  - looks like everythings been adjusted, gonna list a few examplesRighteous Condemnation - 1 point gets you 20% increase in healArdent Belief - 1 point gets wis +10%Bless of the Reverent - 1 point increases max health amount by 8%<div></div>

[Daydeee]

and so now you can easily pass 2 super tankers side by side in the gulf between warrior and crusader tankabilty...

[madha]

<P>When will SOE learn are ability to half [Removed for Content] heal doesnt mak up for our ability to tank poorly... we are a hybrid class i know but come one, 0 of our aa that wiork have anything to do with tanking..</P> <P> Our guild MT finaly went the buckler line and omg 1k dps every fight is a huge ability that we just cant match.  </P> <P>All out AA that increase our health do it by like 1% a point, even if you spend every point you can thats still just 1 dot of health that you gain. </P> <P> I just dont know what they have planned for us, These aa seem to be solo or duo based we dont get any raiding abilities.. ANd Whats up with the smite evil junk does that work on evil NPC's too? Most NPC have a class componet, but if this ability works only on PC then omg why..</P>

[Goejun]

<div></div>Better healing, cure. Not bad. Slight DPS increase. Our solo ability gonna be better. And we gonna heal better in raids...oh, but wait, don't healers do that better anyway ??? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Goejun on <span class=date_text>11-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:25 AM</span>

[Sedi]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dminkey wrote:<BR><BR>Bless of the Reverent - 1 point increases max health amount by 8%<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Im a bit confused since im not in beta about how much actual hp this will give, wether its 2pct or 8pct incease per point. Does it take the 8pct increase form the base buff it used to be after you spent the 1pt? or will it increase? for example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First point you spend m1 gives you 367hps + 8pct = ruffly 396hp</DIV> <DIV>Will the 2nd point take the 8pct from the 396hps it currently gives now or still from the base it used to give and take the 8pct from 367?</DIV> <DIV>so will it be 396 + 29.36(8pct of 367) = 425 or will it be... 396 + 8pct = ruffly 428hp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its a pretty small increase but im sure it would be noticable if you spent all 5 points. And i hope you can understand, not sure if i worded it right.</DIV>

[holypaladin28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> madhatr wrote:<BR> <P>When will SOE learn are ability to half [Removed for Content] heal doesnt mak up for our ability to tank poorly... we are a hybrid class i know but come one, 0 of our aa that wiork have anything to do with tanking..</P> <P> Our guild MT finaly went the buckler line and omg 1k dps every fight is a huge ability that we just cant match.  </P> <P>All out AA that increase our health do it by like 1% a point, even if you spend every point you can thats still just 1 dot of health that you gain. </P> <P> I just dont know what they have planned for us, These aa seem to be solo or duo based we dont get any raiding abilities.. ANd Whats up with the smite evil junk does that work on evil NPC's too? Most NPC have a class componet, but if this ability works only on PC then omg why..</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>smite evil is a pvp spell and im going to love it 90 percent of group make up are evil only classes<BR>

[Kaleyen]

Well smite evil was a good idea...cept I'm on Exile faction in PvP so I'd be able to use it on half the fights.  Whee?<div></div>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>hey take a 1k aoe damage spell any way you can get it.</DIV>

[hawsecav19d]

I understand why some of you are complaining you want to be a better MT well go roll a gaurdian they are supposed to be best tank and thats where the bar is at. I am not on beta so I dont have the parse yet but looking at Wrath line thats going to be about 15-20% increase in my dps so I will be pushing past a 1k damage on fights now. If they fix our power pool and give us better heals and dps thats 2 out of the 3 things we do then they did ok job with the new AA. And as far as gaurdians having  a wide rift well I aint meet the gaurdian yet that could hold AOE agro over me. I havnt been raiding long but most time mobs dont just come one at a time. We fill roll of tank well we can be dps and we heal. Switch out your armor and jewelery once and awhile when you got a MT all ready there is more to life than standing at the front with your head up a mobs [Removed for Content].

[FallenTurtle]

<DIV>These abilities got changed in a recent update.. soon as im able to make a screenshot i will post what they changed.. oh, and ill tell you one thing.. they took out the reduction on aramament and put in GROUP ARMAMENT!(currently for everyone other than fighters <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</DIV>

[Caetrel]

Some highlight on the new AA redo. Most damage increases are now 5% per rank as opposed to 2.  In general most numbers on things got bumped up, recast 60 seconds per rank on LoH line etc...  They fixed some of the uselessly tiny amounts. Armamanet line gives 120 group mit to all non fighters per rank, 700 at 5 points spent.  Super lame.  Ya know SK's get a siphon mit alternate of this where they get the mit bonus and drain it from another in group. Blessing went from 2 to 8%, so if you spend 5 points you get a 40% bonus to the health buff.  So it will amount to 140 or so extra heal. The end hero line thing gives less avoidance now. <div></div>

[Kaleyen]

So do we get a double attack with a 2 hander now?<div></div>

[Sedi]

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is the point of a mit buff that cant be casted on fighters? jesus christ i hate this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing game. its not that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing hard to just make it 700 at rank 5 for non fighters and then just say, *all fighter classes will recieve 50pct of this buff. or some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. bam we get a mit buff and everyone is all fine and dandy.

[Kenji11]

<P>Id have to agree with Sedila, though not as aggressively. If they altered that AA to basically say</P> <P> </P> <P>Reduces penalties of Pledge of Armament and all upgrades by 20% per rank.</P> <P>All group members including caster will gain 20% of the benefits of Pledge of Armament per rank.</P> <P>A lot of our problems would be solved... well, and increase the block rate on the shield AA.</P> <P> </P> <P>So essentially we can take that AA, probably will have to be put in under Hero line, if it isnt there already, put 5 points in it, and now we have a 372/425 permanent mit buff for our entire group, and more importantly ourselves. That way we can be put in the MT group with say a guardian, they get more mit, we get more hp, nobody loses anything, and if they go down, we are immediatly ready to take over, especially with a 20 second sigil. That will greatly narrow the gap between paladin and warrior tanking. Should also be noted for those that dont know, our evil counterparts are having thier Despoiling Mist ability changed into a mit siphon, along with a reverse pledge. Basically a sk can grab a mob, and for 72 of 90/81 seconds have a decent amount of extra mitper mob affected by the mist. They also get what id call a reverse pledge that only works on fighters, its a buff that reduces the fighter's mit, and increases the sk's. So between those 2 abilities, id more than wager sks are gonna be the new mit gods. So we should at least get this.</P><p>Message Edited by Kenji1134 on <span class=date_text>11-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:10 PM</span>

[SpyrerTheFirst]

yay for SoE taking away the only AA i actually found good.... lets hear it for another half year of pallys getting the shaft<div></div>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>First, we are not Hybrid, we are an neglected character class. </DIV> <DIV>Read everything SOE promotes about Paladins, nothing to read from "Half-Fighter, Half-Priest". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It looks as SOE fears that Paladins coult be an Uberclass and has thrown them to the bottom. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- We get no real Damage</DIV> <DIV>- We get not really something to hold aggro. </DIV> <DIV>We will hold Aggro worse then before, as other classes increase in damage. </DIV> <DIV>Thanks Game Deveolpers! Well balanced (16 tons irony). </DIV> <DIV>Our Damage increase is not in porportion to the increase with the other classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If SOE doensn't like Tanks, delete 5 of them. </DIV> <DIV>Paladins can*t do anything worth that would in Group play let a Group considerate to take a Paladin instead of an Guardian. </DIV> <DIV>Less in Raidplay. </DIV> <DIV>I hoped we would get something in Resistance. To become Resistance-Tanks. </DIV>

[Rarlin]

I can rez...<div></div>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hawsecav19d wrote:<BR> I understand why some of you are complaining you want to be a better MT well go roll a gaurdian they are supposed to be best tank and thats where the bar is at. I am not on beta so I dont have the parse yet but looking at Wrath line thats going to be about 15-20% increase in my dps so I will be pushing past a 1k damage on fights now. If they fix our power pool and give us better heals and dps thats 2 out of the 3 things we do then they did ok job with the new AA. And as far as gaurdians having  a wide rift well I aint meet the gaurdian yet that could hold AOE agro over me. I havnt been raiding long but most time mobs dont just come one at a time. We fill roll of tank well we can be dps and we heal. Switch out your armor and jewelery once and awhile when you got a MT all ready there is more to life than standing at the front with your head up a mobs [Removed for Content].<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Obviously you haven't raided with a paladin much then. SOE designed this game with the idea that any fighter would be able to take the place of a tank when needed to, and all fighters would be ideal at tanking various different situations. Every fighter class was given unique abilities which enables them to do some pretty insane things...in the right situation. What most people are complaining about is that the guardians will have the ability to HOLD aggro arguably probably better then most paladins will be able to with the up coming changes. Some key areas that will assist THEM in holding aggro are reduced timers on rescue, increased taunting power %, and other taunting abilities. The only taunt increase we get is an increase in our sigil time length....big whip de do.</P> <P>Everyone focus's on a paladin's ability to heal themselves and other players....THE BOTTOM LINE IS OUR HEALS SUCK (when compared to a real healer). If they increased the recast timer on our heals, but decreased the casting time...that would go a LONG way towards making us a lot more viable. Bottom line is you can't tank and expect to heal/ward yourself to keep aggro in a fight. SOE designed our class with this in mind to help us keep aggro...but it simply DOESN'T WORK! Our heals are considered wards and don't work with any shaman in your group...so that limits your best heal even MORE! This is totally stupid and making the paladin class practically obsolete for tanking ANYTHING in the game compared to any other fighter class.</P> <P>I am not crying nerf. Don't nerf the other classes. Just give us more tools to use for tanking like we've asked before (like along the healer line or some kind of mit buff thats useful). You stated that you do 1k damage in a raid....That is great...why have a paladin in a raid when you can put a summoner or wizard in to dps at twice the amount in your spot....THATS THE FREAKIN PROBLEM!</P> <P>Ohh and one other tidbit, now PALADINS are the only fighter class that must focus on balancing 5 stats to max their abilities...most fighters focus on 3 and throw the rest in INT for damage procs. This further reduces our ability to tank in all areas. SK's now get their power from STR and INT!</P><p>Message Edited by Fatuus on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:50 AM</span>

[Faelgalad]

<P>We can rez when we nearly standing on top of our comrade.</P> <P>I hate this. In normal group play it's annoying, in raid play it is deadly. </P> <P>Running arround, leaving my oot post, loosing time for searching the body.</P> <P>And 60 seconds is far to long to be usefull for the spell to lighten the burden of the priests. </P> <P>Not able to rezz someone not in our Group, I truely hate this. Some poor soul in a Dungeon lies arround and I can't help him, </P> <P>'cause I'am not in his group, then I have to leave and blaahhhh..... </P> <P>WOW, what an accurate display of Paladin-behaviour as an helpful holy warrior of rightnous and justice. </P> <P>(And btw. Necro's and Dirges can rez too)</P>

[Rarlin]

Ok,If we're supposed to be more of the support tank, can we get something like a group rez (similar to Dirge) in our AA line that rez's the entire group?  That might make us at least a little more valuable to a raid...I'm honestly grasping for something here, but I don't want to get too depressed until we're out of beta and into the real thing.  I've heard the AAs have already changed for us since the NDA was lifted, that means the devs ARE listening.  So speak up guys, don't just complain, give some ideas (as MANY of you already have).<div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Rarlin wrote:Ok,If we're supposed to be more of the support tank, can we get something like a group rez (similar to Dirge) in our AA line that rez's the entire group?  That might make us at least a little more valuable to a raid...I'm honestly grasping for something here, but I don't want to get too depressed until we're out of beta and into the real thing.  I've heard the AAs have already changed for us since the NDA was lifted, that means the devs ARE listening.  So speak up guys, don't just complain, give some ideas (as MANY of you already have).<div></div><hr></blockquote>The AA changes were more DPS, that is pretty much it.</div>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <P>Our heals are considered wards and don't work with any shaman in your group...so that limits your best heal even MORE! </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fatuus, could you please elaborate a bit on the quoted bit above? I duo with my wife (Mystic) on a lot of things and haven't seen this happen, so am interested to find out what I might have missed.</P> <P>Thanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<BR></P>

[Rarlin]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Rarlin wrote:Ok,If we're supposed to be more of the support tank, can we get something like a group rez (similar to Dirge) in our AA line that rez's the entire group?  That might make us at least a little more valuable to a raid...I'm honestly grasping for something here, but I don't want to get too depressed until we're out of beta and into the real thing.  I've heard the AAs have already changed for us since the NDA was lifted, that means the devs ARE listening.  So speak up guys, don't just complain, give some ideas (as MANY of you already have).<div></div><hr></blockquote>The AA changes were more DPS, that is pretty much it.</div><hr></blockquote>Oh joy...Honestly I've tried pushing my DPS because there is little left for me to do.  However, no matter how hard I try, I still can't beat a Warrior with a 1H and a Buckler...  If we're supposed to be utility tank, then let's beef it.The great folks that I raid with are more of a group of friends than mission minded raiders.  Don't get me wrong, we've killed things like Tarinax, but the really difficult stuff will probably remain untouched by us for a while.  I get to come along, but I want to contribute something.  So I tank a little, DPS a little, heal a little, but in all honesty, I can't do any of it well.  I know it's fun to be versitle, and this is probably just coming across as whining, but I would like a solid focus.  A mit buff for non-tanks doesn't help me become more useful, it just earns me another point on the "Most Worthless Class to Bring on a Raid" chart.   I'm not a beta player, so I'm speaking out of total ignorance, but if we're supposed to be a utility tank, give us more utility.  Just my 2cp.  Feel free to flame on!</div>

[Knesh]

<DIV>They actually managed to make the AA's even worse than KOS and here I thought that was impossible to do! WTG Sony!</DIV>

[Caetrel]

Shadowknights get an alternate Pledge that gives them the mit bonus and siphons it from another fighter in group.    That really makes our alternate seem worthless for pledge when it is demonstrated that something cool can be done with it. They also turned Despoil into a big self mit buff (thas'd the SK encounter mit beduff- now it buffs the SK 300+ mit for evey mob they debuff, up to 8, in an encounter). I am very heppy for SKs this is a great change of direction.  But that's alot of love that we aren't getting.  I just have to wonder why devs feel SKs need all that boost and paladins don't need anything (other than 3% or so avoidance from the new AA). <div></div>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rarlin wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A mit buff for non-tanks doesn't help me become more useful, it just earns me another point on the "Most Worthless Class to Bring on a Raid" chart.   I'm not a beta player, so I'm speaking out of total ignorance, but if we're supposed to be a utility tank, give us more utility.  Just my 2cp.  Feel free to flame on!<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/agree. The only way I could see this being useful at all is if melee ae's became so large they were unavoidable...and then pray that 140-700 mit extra was enough to keep the robes alive.</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<BR></P>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <P>Our heals are considered wards and don't work with any shaman in your group...so that limits your best heal even MORE! </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fatuus, could you please elaborate a bit on the quoted bit above? I duo with my wife (Mystic) on a lot of things and haven't seen this happen, so am interested to find out what I might have missed.</P> <P>Thanks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Our ward does not "stack" with other shaman wards. It takes one or the other from the healer parses I have seen.<BR>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR>Our ward does not "stack" with other shaman wards. It takes one or the other from the healer parses I have seen.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Every parse I've seen allows our ward to stack with shaman wards. I often have both my own ward and my wife's on me when tanking for groups. I'll have to look again to see if this has changed, but it seemed to stack just fine just yesterday. (Regardless of the outcome it doesn't invalidate what you were saying in your original post about us needing some dev love. I just wanted clarification since this affects me personally with my duo partner. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P>

[CycoDelic]

Oue wards stack, and even generate agro on body pulls. If our MT has to body pull in a raid I throw a ward so I take the first hits til he taunts... helps keep em off the healers.

[Caetrel]

<div></div>On a positive nore regarding the new AAs and our heals/wards I did some respeccing to play around on beta and you can do some cool stuff with heals. With 10% cast/recharge reduction from the KoS STR AA line combined with some enhance AAs from EoF you can attain the following: 8 min 39 sec recast on Celestial Touch 1.8 casting time/ 8.5 sec recast on ward 1.35 casting time/ 4.5 second recast on spot heal Notice it takes the 10% off the original recast times, then applies the new enhancement reductions. All in all this means more heals faster and less interrupts with a smaller casting time.   I am excited about the quick ward recast. Keep in mind focus will help with interrupts too.  I was able to juice up my heals and still keep 4-4-8-8 in the INT line for spell and heal crits, plus max out the Hero line for more avoidance and still pick up some dps from Wraths (did righteousness, brimstone and unflinching conviction enhances).  I didn't like losing 4-500 health and melee crit from abandoning the stamina line but with good gear/ adornments/ plus the health buff from the Hero line it works out okay. If you don't want the STR AA line you still can get 10 second ward and 10 minute celestial touch recasts, I just liked the compounding of the 2 together for super quick recharge. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:35 AM</span>

[xjailbaitx]

"Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"   - Johnny Rotten <div></div>

[Rarlin]

<div><blockquote><hr>xjailbaitx wrote:"Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"   - Johnny Rotten <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yes,But I still love this game.</div>

[spector270]

<P>so basically now that sk get a self mit buff aa, the best use of a pally in a raid is to betray to sk.  not sure how soe can justify giving sk's a mit buff and not the pally.  so glad i rolled a healer.....er i mean pally</P> <P> </P> <P>Naemo 70 pally</P> <P>Sovereign </P> <P>Crushbone</P> <P> </P>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>I agree with you to a point but the tanks are not equal in any way shape or form. I have yet to see monk or bruiser that could hold agro they can steal it just fine for sec or two but they cant hold agro as well as Pal/Sk. In turn we cant hold it as well as Gaurdian or Ber just on the fact that they gets about twice as many ways to taunt. Pally can hold agro as long as your raid lets you thats the bottem line. Even with hate reduction on wiz and amends on guardian spaming taunts which is about 8k worth of taunts every 10 secs its not very hard for Pal to loose agro. We got 2 direct taunts amends group taunt for 15sec shield bash and rescue, Gaurdians get 9 hate generating taunts or taunt effects. Unless they up the amount we taunt with the 2 main ones we get, how do you compete with that? I havent been raiding long just a few months but I havnt seen anything that tells me we are designed to be better MT than a gaurdian or even equal too. I try and look at it from Guardians pt of view as well, if we could taunt as well as them why would anyone roll a gaurdian then they dont have dps we got they dont heal or rez. They would be yelling to bring out nerf bat if we could be equal to them as Agro Magnets. Pally class needs work no doubt but if you made us close to equal it would stupid to use a gaurdian. The only people complaining for most part are MT Raid Pally or want to be. I bow down to those of you who have managed to do it considering the handicaps we have as class for the job. But for vast majority of us are offtanks in raids backup healers or dps for raids, cause I think lots of people forget that not every guild revolves around raiding the toughest thing they can find 3-5 days a week. Lots of us belong in guilds that dont have ideal setups or for that matter wouldnt want to leave a class out repeatedly becuase we already have 1-2 of a class already and there in you have people who would want to raid that would never be allowed to raid. Personally I would like to see Pallies become what they should be the be all end all agianst undead mobs give us something more than our procs that would make us allways be preferred for fighting undead. We can be good tank for everything if we work at it but we should be exceptional against undead and that would give us a niche where you would say ya we going to such and such Pally is the tank tonight and no one would question it.</DIV>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hawsecav19d wrote:<BR> <DIV>I agree with you to a point but the tanks are not equal in any way shape or form. I have yet to see monk or bruiser that could hold agro they can steal it just fine for sec or two but they cant hold agro as well as Pal/Sk. In turn we cant hold it as well as Gaurdian or Ber just on the fact that they gets about twice as many ways to taunt. Pally can hold agro as long as your raid lets you thats the bottem line. Even with hate reduction on wiz and amends on guardian spaming taunts which is about 8k worth of taunts every 10 secs its not very hard for Pal to loose agro. We got 2 direct taunts amends group taunt for 15sec shield bash and rescue, Gaurdians get 9 hate generating taunts or taunt effects. Unless they up the amount we taunt with the 2 main ones we get, how do you compete with that? I havent been raiding long just a few months but I havnt seen anything that tells me we are designed to be better MT than a gaurdian or even equal too. I try and look at it from Guardians pt of view as well, if we could taunt as well as them <STRONG>why would anyone roll a gaurdian then they dont have dps we got</STRONG> they dont heal or rez. They would be yelling to bring out nerf bat if we could be equal to them as Agro Magnets. Pally class needs work no doubt but if you made us close to equal it would stupid to use a gaurdian. The only people complaining for most part are MT Raid Pally or want to be. I bow down to those of you who have managed to do it considering the handicaps we have as class for the job. But for vast majority of us are offtanks in raids backup healers or dps for raids, cause I think lots of people forget that not every guild revolves around raiding the toughest thing they can find 3-5 days a week. Lots of us belong in guilds that dont have ideal setups or for that matter wouldnt want to leave a class out repeatedly becuase we already have 1-2 of a class already and there in you have people who would want to raid that would never be allowed to raid. Personally I would like to see Pallies become what they should be the be all end all agianst undead mobs give us something more than our procs that would make us allways be preferred for fighting undead. We can be good tank for everything if we work at it but we should be exceptional against undead and that would give us a niche where you would say ya we going to such and such Pally is the tank tonight and no one would question it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think I'd agree with your points more if everyone (or all the vocal guys) only wanted tankability and nothing else. This simply isn't the case. I have zero problems with the heals, dps, and utility lines. However, the 'hero' line was supposed to be the line that gave us options to become a more viable tank, and it's quite frankly lacking. Since this line is needing more adjustment and review than the other ones, it's getting the most attention through posts. Not surprisingly, it's highlighted by those very people that would liek to use that option for enhancement...the raid tanks (or those that would like to be).</P> <P>I also need to disagree with one remark you made, about the warrior DPS (in bold type in your quote above). Guards regularly parse better than paladins. In fact, it's hard for a paladin to outparse a guard in defensive stance with a sword and buckler (with the buckler line), even when the paladin has a 2-hander in offensive stance.</P> <P>If you don't MT, don't wish to, and will likely never want this as your option for an EoF AA line, then you shouldn't grief anyone that <EM>does</EM> want this as an option to their character. I personally will likely never hit a heal AA ever on my character, but I respect that others DO wish to heal better and use their paladin in that respect.<BR></P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>Our Days as Tanks are over with EoF! </DIV> <DIV>Look at the other EoF AA-Lines from other classes. What does this mean to us?</DIV> <DIV>What they get in Damage/Heal, we can't compensate with just an lousy Sigil of Heroism Improvment. </DIV> <DIV>The small damage increase we get, will not survive their aggro onslaught. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the "keep your head up" talking from a few guys, face the mathematics, we are outnumbered, in pure sense. </DIV> <DIV>And all this talking, that if we would get close to Guardian, no one would use Guardians. Their are 6 fighter, SOE has to </DIV> <DIV>fix that all are useful. </DIV> <DIV>Is that our problem? No! SOE offers 24 classes, we pay for being Paladins. </DIV> <DIV>They don't do us a favor, we are customers with the right for an correct working product. </DIV> <DIV>The Paladin product is not well developed. If your car drives only 30 km/h, it drives, but you would go to the car seller and</DIV> <DIV>demand fixing the problem!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Over not only for Raid-Paladins. Also in Groupsplay. This Aggro issue will puts us down the ladder. </DIV> <DIV>I'am not a bad gamer, leading a raid on Innovation, I know this Game a bit. </DIV> <DIV>Currently I have problems holding Aggro in Nek3, X-Roost ist quiet impossible for me, taming 7 Damage Dealers, so allways taking one of our Guardians. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With this change, we are lost!</DIV> <DIV>I enjoy to hear that SK's go up. I know a bunch of SK's and I know they hunger for Improvement much like we do. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG><BR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Lynassihr on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:11 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

Aye, and dont' get me started on Zerkers tanking in offensive and a buckler, parsing 1200-1400 zone wide parses......people who think Pally dps is good, obviously is comparing the dps to that of say a Bard <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Both Warriors can break 1k pretty easily while MTing, due to Buckler Reversal<div></div>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>Have looked into Shadowknights. </DIV> <DIV>They have an full Aggro Line, good for them, devasting for us <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Canel]

<P>Well...dissapoiting AA's....</P> <P>Id rather take the KoS AAs over again vs. these ones, comon, these AAs are the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ing, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ing, bul sht ing possible things SoE could think of....comon, some of those AAs are specificlaly geared to PVP...and I'm sorry, but thats just wrong 110%. The majority of EQ2 players are PVE, not PVP. months ago, SoE reps would swear blind there would never be a PVP, now they're basically just focusing on it=unacceptable. Our AAs are probably the worst out there...but hey, thyats what our KoS AAs used to be, then we adapted them, and we eventually we could come to live with them...</P> <P>IM not trying to pwn on any PvPers out there, but this is just the way it seems logically</P>

[hawsecav19d]

I dont have the greatest gear only been raiding for last 3 months a couple days a week, but in offence stance with int at 527 I know its a waster right now. The only people that are outparseing me are Wiz and Scouts I hit 1k alot on mutliple mob fights and stay in the 400+ range on single targets around 500 for entire raids and I am nowhere near equiped like I want to  be. Part of this I realize is cause guild recently started raiding we are not equiped to max yet so scouts and wiz will start to pull away from me but right now they only beating me by 2-300pts but there is not a guardian in my guild that can outparse me yet berserker beat me of some individual parses but not entire zones. If your not MT or MA and possible going to get agro and speced for dps you should beat gaurdians I would think. As gear geats better I would understand the Mages and Scouts pulling away but not other tanks. New AA gear us towards being better healer or better Dps with very little help towards being better tanks. SK will get improvements towards tanking we will be worst plate MT after EoF unless they change more. Half sec wards would be great improvements I like that idea and the one they posted about using both Str line and heal line for faster recasts if you get it short enough that would help alot. But if we getting 20% increase to Dps I dont see how any plate tanks going to out dps us at least against multiple targets.

[Glacis]

<DIV>Guess I will hang around and see what the final outcome is in regards to combat changes and new AA line, however I am expecting this is the end of EQ2 for me.  The new zones will be pretty for about a month then that will basically be it.  Pally's have been shoved into the pigeon winged trash can they wear on their heads and thrown out the window.  Anyway, we shall see, my pally has already be forced to retire from raids as we are pretty much useless as it is, with this expansion I was hoping to pull him out of the mothballs, guess not.</DIV>

[FlintAH]

Dont believe all the negative people.  The AA have been readjusted and I personally like them and think they will enhance my play.+ to support role+ to tanking+ to healingall of which I like being able to do.<div></div>

[SpyrerTheFirst]

Ok, so if these things have changed could someone plz post the new ones? <div></div>

[Rocksthemic]

<blockquote><hr>hawsecav19d wrote:<div></div>I dont have the greatest gear only been raiding for last 3 months a couple days a week, but in offence stance with int at 527 I know its a waster right now. The only people that are outparseing me are Wiz and Scouts I hit 1k alot on mutliple mob fights and stay in the 400+ range on single targets around 500 for entire raids and I am nowhere near equiped like I want to  be. Part of this I realize is cause guild recently started raiding we are not equiped to max yet so scouts and wiz will start to pull away from me but right now they only beating me by 2-300pts but there is not a guardian in my guild that can outparse me yet berserker beat me of some individual parses but not entire zones. If your not MT or MA and possible going to get agro and speced for dps you should beat gaurdians I would think. As gear geats better I would understand the Mages and Scouts pulling away but not other tanks. New AA gear us towards being better healer or better Dps with very little help towards being better tanks. SK will get improvements towards tanking we will be worst plate MT after EoF unless they change more. Half sec wards would be great improvements I like that idea and the one they posted about using both Str line and heal line for faster recasts if you get it short enough that would help alot. But if we getting 20% increase to Dps I dont see how any plate tanks going to out dps us at least against multiple targets.<hr></blockquote> As has been stated before... a guardian or beserker with the buckler line can outparse you easily. However, there is one thing, and that is that they must be MT to get the maximum dps out of it. If they are not the MT, the dps they put out does drop, but all in all, they will still be able to out dps you with the 70% chance to double attack. If you have a gaurd or zerker who is your regular MT, I would suggest they go down the buckler line, you will be amazed at the dps increase, and so will they<div></div>

[Sedi]

<DIV><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlintAH wrote:<BR>Dont believe all the negative people.  The AA have been readjusted and I personally like them and think they will enhance my play.<BR><BR>+ to support role<BR>+ to tanking<BR>+ to healing<BR><BR>all of which I like being able to do.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>pallys like u are why after 2 years of me playing this game hardcore, i still cant tank up to par with any warrior. thanks for derailing your own class.<BR></DIV>

[su]

<P>Some of the AAs I like .. glad my paladins almost lv 70. I am starting over as a fae wizzard cuz im tired of being picked in a group to back up heal.</P> <P>But i tryed a guard out there pretty good tank wise but i can solo better on my paladin.. ill just use my paladin to solo to 70 and use my wizard in groups. I would roll of templer but hey i got a paladin to heal lol..</P> <P>I spam the hell out of my heals when i cant keep hate from nukes or dmg dealers.. amends n other spells ...</P> <P>Sometimes its works and sometimes it dont speacaily if a wizard has master 1 or 2 Nuke and spaming it like crazy.</P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sedila wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> FlintAH wrote:Dont believe all the negative people.  The AA have been readjusted and I personally like them and think they will enhance my play.+ to support role+ to tanking+ to healingall of which I like being able to do. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>pallys like u are why after 2 years of me playing this game hardcore, i still cant tank up to par with any warrior. thanks for derailing your own class.</div><hr></blockquote>Some of us actually know what we are talking about, don't listen to the EQ2 fanbois', who think the highest level of raiding is beating Tarinax 3 weeks before an expansion.</div>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sedila wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlintAH wrote:<BR>Dont believe all the negative people.  The AA have been readjusted and I personally like them and think they will enhance my play.<BR><BR>+ to support role<BR>+ to tanking<BR>+ to healing<BR><BR>all of which I like being able to do.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>pallys like u are why after 2 years of me playing this game hardcore, i still cant tank up to par with any warrior. thanks for derailing your own class.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Some of us actually know what we are talking about, don't listen to the EQ2 fanbois', who think the highest level of raiding is beating Tarinax 3 weeks before an expansion.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok, Phov. Can you explain what adjustment has happened that added the + to tanking that Flint mentioned? I was playing with the AA lines last night in Beta and didn't see any change. Don't get me wrong, I like the healing, dps, and most of the utility lines... It's just the hero line that I wish would get tweaked.</P> <P>(Edit) I just re-read it, and maybe you were supporting Trod... if that's the case, then nevermind the question. (/edit)</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Wulfborne on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:19 AM</span>

[MeridianR]

<div></div>Dude I don't know what was meant by the +tanking - and yes I noticed your edit I was backing Trod.<div></div><p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:25 AM</span>

[Wulfborne]

<P>Right-o. I had thought we were on the same page, so that post made me have a double-take. The universe has realigned again. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P>

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sedila wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> FlintAH wrote:Dont believe all the negative people.  The AA have been readjusted and I personally like them and think they will enhance my play.+ to support role+ to tanking+ to healingall of which I like being able to do. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>pallys like u are why after 2 years of me playing this game hardcore, i still cant tank up to par with any warrior. thanks for derailing your own class.</div><hr></blockquote>If you cant tank as well as a warrior it is your own fault.  Just cuz you cant dps doesnt mean you cant take the damage and keep aggro which is what tanking is about.  Granted we are slightly lower in mit and dont have the stone skin abilities but we dont really need them at this point.  Not sure why everyone wants pallys to be the same as a warrior.  If I wanted to play a guardian I would have made one.  We are different but still fully viable.</div>

[lavasoul]

FlintAh, in normal grouping we do fine but what the majority of us Paladins want is the ability to tank in raid situation not a everyday instance run. We are fighting for our role in raid. Every other plate tank including our counter part is getting ability to increase their tanking ability in raid but not us.

[Sedi]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlintAH wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sedila wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlintAH wrote:<BR>Dont believe all the negative people.  The AA have been readjusted and I personally like them and think they will enhance my play.<BR><BR>+ to support role<BR>+ to tanking<BR>+ to healing<BR><BR>all of which I like being able to do.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>pallys like u are why after 2 years of me playing this game hardcore, i still cant tank up to par with any warrior. thanks for derailing your own class.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If you cant tank as well as a warrior it is your own fault.  Just cuz you cant dps doesnt mean you cant take the damage and keep aggro which is what tanking is about. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#993333>I just really dont even know what to say about this reply... just like dont ever post again.. because oviously you have no idea what your talking about.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Granted we are slightly lower in mit and dont have the stone skin abilities but we dont really need them at this point. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#993300>yeah i mean cmon.. what am i talking about.. 300 base mit and 2 1k+ mit buffs is nothing, our leet ward makes up for that every 15seconds for sure! i mean cmon 1300 damage ward is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing awesome!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Not sure why everyone wants pallys to be the same as a warrior.  If I wanted to play a guardian I would have made one.  We are different but still fully viable.<BR></DIV><FONT color=#993300>we dont. it should be pretty obvious that making pallys like a warrior would be impossible unless they revamped the whole class. we just want things that actually HELP us tank instead of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] stepping around it.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Sedila on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 PM</span>

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>lavasoul wrote:<div></div>FlintAh, in normal grouping we do fine but what the majority of us Paladins want is the ability to tank in raid situation not a everyday instance run. We are fighting for our role in raid. Every other plate tank including our counter part is getting ability to increase their tanking ability in raid but not us.<hr></blockquote>I have tanked everything there is to tank except matron and CD w/ zero problem.</div>

[CycoDelic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlintAH wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lavasoul wrote:<BR> FlintAh, in normal grouping we do fine but what the majority of us Paladins want is the ability to tank in raid situation not a everyday instance run. We are fighting for our role in raid. Every other plate tank including our counter part is getting ability to increase their tanking ability in raid but not us.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have tanked everything there is to tank except matron and CD w/ zero problem.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Grats.</P> <P>However, you seem to miss the big picture of this thread. No one who knows the class has said the things you have accomplished in your fabulous EQ2 career aren't possible. What is being said is that you are statistically the worst choice for the job. Marry that with the AA lines we just recieved (as compared to other plate wearing tank classes) and your probobility for becoming backup just jumped exponentially.</P>

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlintAH wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lavasoul wrote:<BR> FlintAh, in normal grouping we do fine but what the majority of us Paladins want is the ability to tank in raid situation not a everyday instance run. We are fighting for our role in raid. Every other plate tank including our counter part is getting ability to increase their tanking ability in raid but not us.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have tanked everything there is to tank except matron and CD w/ zero problem.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What are you TALKING ABOUT you are a complete and utter [Removed for Content]. what YOU TANKED PRIOR to EoF has NOTHING to do with the current revamp and lack of improvements in EOF. Let EOF hit on the 14th and see how well you tank things then! We are not complaining about the current setup do I think we currently need help yes but we are better at the PRESENT then whats currently coming down the pipeline for us in EOF so get your head out of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for 2secs and pay attention.</P> <P>SKS get an entire line to increase there taunts they also get an entire line to increase there lifetaps(AKA SK' healing) they can also REMOVE mit from another player and give it to themselves.</P> <P>With this revamp paladins LOOSE mit from the revamp, and GAIN ZERO aa's in EOF to increase it - all we get is increase in dps and increase in HEALING NO increase in taunts except sigil *duration increase* and no increase in MIT.</P> <P>Point blank SOE has killed the paladin class if the current lineup + the combat changes make it live.</P>

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>CycoDelic wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> FlintAH wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> lavasoul wrote: <div></div>FlintAh, in normal grouping we do fine but what the majority of us Paladins want is the ability to tank in raid situation not a everyday instance run. We are fighting for our role in raid. Every other plate tank including our counter part is getting ability to increase their tanking ability in raid but not us. <hr> </blockquote>I have tanked everything there is to tank except matron and CD w/ zero problem.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Grats.</p> <p>However, you seem to miss the big picture of this thread. No one who knows the class has said the things you have accomplished in your fabulous EQ2 career aren't possible. What is being said is that you are statistically the worst choice for the job. Marry that with the AA lines we just recieved (as compared to other plate wearing tank classes) and your probobility for becoming backup just jumped exponentially.</p><hr></blockquote>I agree, but statistically worst choice <> incapable.</div>

[CycoDelic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlintAH wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CycoDelic wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlintAH wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lavasoul wrote:<BR> FlintAh, in normal grouping we do fine but what the majority of us Paladins want is the ability to tank in raid situation not a everyday instance run. We are fighting for our role in raid. Every other plate tank including our counter part is getting ability to increase their tanking ability in raid but not us.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have tanked everything there is to tank except matron and CD w/ zero problem.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Grats.</P> <P>However, you seem to miss the big picture of this thread. No one who knows the class has said the things you have accomplished in your fabulous EQ2 career aren't possible. What is being said is that you are statistically the worst choice for the job. Marry that with the AA lines we just recieved (as compared to other plate wearing tank classes) and your probobility for becoming backup just jumped exponentially.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree, but statistically worst choice <> incapable.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That, I will agree with

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlintAH wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lavasoul wrote:<BR> FlintAh, in normal grouping we do fine but what the majority of us Paladins want is the ability to tank in raid situation not a everyday instance run. We are fighting for our role in raid. Every other plate tank including our counter part is getting ability to increase their tanking ability in raid but not us.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have tanked everything there is to tank except matron and CD w/ zero problem.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And I highly doubt with your crappy gear you tanked Venkeor or Tarniax that way - what with your l33t 2k resists and COP BP!!! Whoa! Me thinks insurgences needs a guardian <P>Message edited didn't see the CD <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Im analogy pronned! Sue me!</P><p>Message Edited by Knesh on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:59 PM</span>

[Faelgalad]

<P>A question to the issue. </P> <P>What can we do?</P> <P>SOE hasn't done anything for us. What are the options? </P> <P>Waiting that SOE change things suddenly?</P> <P>How many of you can think about summing up the Issue and then starting demonstrations on the different servers. </P> <P>Getting this Message accross all the Forums, accross the guilds, asking for solidarity from other players. </P> <P>Rallying on each server on the bridge in North Qeynos on a specific day, bring friends with us, and write petitions en masse about our </P> <P>demand for rebalancing. </P> <P>Remember, we are customers, we have a right for an working product. </P>

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lynassihr wrote:<BR> <P>A question to the issue. </P> <P>What can we do?</P> <P>SOE hasn't done anything for us. What are the options? </P> <P>Waiting that SOE change things suddenly?</P> <P>How many of you can think about summing up the Issue and then starting demonstrations on the different servers. </P> <P>Getting this Message accross all the Forums, accross the guilds, asking for solidarity from other players. </P> <P>Rallying on each server on the bridge in North Qeynos on a specific day, bring friends with us, and write petitions en masse about our </P> <P>demand for rebalancing. </P> <P>Remember, we are customers, we have a right for an working product. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The ONLY thing you can do is stop playing - SOE has demonstrated with there lack of input in our boards that they have no intentions on fixing it - if these changes make it live play with it see what happens if you dont like the class either stop playing it and roll another one or stop playing the game entirely.</P> <P>SOE lost customer service the moment EQ1 created enormous earnings. now its all about the quick buck get what you can for as long as you can.</P> <P>The fact is companies now give you enough to stay period and with these changes a few will leave a lot will reroll, some will betray to SK. SOE has shown a willingness not to listen to honest feedback during beta because the AA lines where not changed and still not changed. The only thing you can honestly do is evaluate the class for yourself and make up your own mind.</P>

[FlintAH]

The epics I tanked the other day didnt hit any harder than they do on live even w/ the mit reduced.  Everyone has had thier mit reduced.  Not sure why you have to flip out and name call instead of using persuasive arguments instead of attacks.  5 secs to sigil is a huge boost.  The only difference I have seen raiding in the same gear is that ae's hit harder due to the resist nerf.<div></div>

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>Knesh wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> FlintAH wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> lavasoul wrote: <div></div>FlintAh, in normal grouping we do fine but what the majority of us Paladins want is the ability to tank in raid situation not a everyday instance run. We are fighting for our role in raid. Every other plate tank including our counter part is getting ability to increase their tanking ability in raid but not us. <hr> </blockquote>I have tanked everything there is to tank except matron and CD w/ zero problem.</div> <hr> </blockquote>And I highly doubt with your crappy gear you tanked Venkeor or Tarniax that way - what with your l33t 2k resists and COP BP!!! Whoa! Me thinks insurgences needs a guardian <p>Message edited didn't see the CD <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Im analogy pronned! Sue me!</p><p>Message Edited by Knesh on <span class="date_text">11-07-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:59 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I have tanked both, not sure what gear you are looking at w/ my 2k resists.  Do you think I use the same gear for every mob?</div>

[Scarrlette]

Settle down on the personal attacks or this thread will be closed.

[Lairdragna]

Hey Scar, maybe you could call a Dev to come here and answer some of this please?  I mean, its not that we aren't used to being ignored... because we have maxed skill in being ignored 350/350.  Its just that we would appreciate being told why SOE is screwing us over big time.Thank you for your assistance.<div></div>

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlintAH wrote:<BR>The epics I tanked the other day didnt hit any harder than they do on live even w/ the mit reduced.  Everyone has had thier mit reduced.  Not sure why you have to flip out and name call instead of using persuasive arguments instead of attacks.  5 secs to sigil is a huge boost.  The only difference I have seen raiding in the same gear is that ae's hit harder due to the resist nerf.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If you honestly think adding 5 secs to sigil is a huge boost to agro on a 1min+ recast while SKS get there entire taunt line upgraded, get rescue upgraded and also get them at reduced casting times are on par with each other then you and I have nothing more to talk about.<BR>

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lairdragna wrote:<BR>Hey Scar, maybe you could call a Dev to come here and answer some of this please?  I mean, its not that we aren't used to being ignored... <STRONG>because we have maxed skill in being ignored 350/350</STRONG>.  Its just that we would appreciate being told why SOE is screwing us over big time.<BR><BR>Thank you for your assistance.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>QFE, that was kinda funny!

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lairdragna wrote:Hey Scar, maybe you could call a Dev to come here and answer some of this please?  I mean, its not that we aren't used to being ignored... because we have maxed skill in being ignored 350/350.  Its just that we would appreciate being told why SOE is screwing us over big time.Thank you for your assistance.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Scarrlette is a Pally haterTrue Story<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Scarrlette]

<blockquote><hr>Lairdragna wrote:Hey Scar, maybe you could call a Dev to come here and answer some of this please?  I mean, its not that we aren't used to being ignored... because we have maxed skill in being ignored 350/350.  Its just that we would appreciate being told why SOE is screwing us over big time.Thank you for your assistance.<div></div><hr></blockquote>The developers do not answer to me, as much as I wish that they would. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But they do play the game, and they do test out all the classes, so if there are issues, they would be aware. Do me a favor guys and check out all the class forums, we have everyone yelling about something so the devs have a lot on their plate.And I don't hate pallies, I just don't play one. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Daydeee]

<P>I don't feel the problem is with the paladin class parsae, rather the way the content was implemented. SOE intended to make every tank viable in a certain circumstance.</P> <P>Paladins were highlighted as basically "the arcane tank" massive wisdom and MR boosts, with wisdom gaining to all spell resists.<BR>Trouble is, unless a boss mob mellees in fire damage or such, physical resists will always be king.</P> <P>This means unless, mobs start dealing a lot of spell damage in certain curcumstances over mellee damage paladins will never make a decent specialist tank.</P> <P>Our strenght has always been in our overall impressive resistances, although  as everyone knows this doesn't matter much against mobs with huge auto attack which attack physically.</P> <P>Until there is spell avoidance based on wisdom, and I mean not just resistances, since anyone and his donkey can get a resist to 9k+, but out right spell avoidance/dodge. We will not have a tanking niche.<BR>Paladins should derive greater restances from their wisdom.. </P> <P><BR>Aura of leadership really should read...<BR>Increase all resistances of group members by 5% or something <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 40% bonus at rank 8.. now that would be nice....</P> <P>Until there are boss mobs that use spell damage as a primary attack we will not have a niche...</P> <P>The way I see it, we have a unique tanking role, just no content to tank...(have fond memories of AL doing ming spell damage)</P> <P>or no content that isn't suited better to a Guardian or serker... even mobs using fear, being fearless... is no call to switch from warrior tank.... Though I do get great milleage from laughing while they run away...</P> <P>Like a previous knight posted, if i wanted to tank as well as a warrior I would have rolled one....<BR>Perhaps God Avatars will auto attack divine damage... no wait that makes sense....</P> <P>Actually, that really is the only problem with content, everything either slashes crushes or peirces.... which lets face it guys and gals, we sux at absorbing, now get something auto attacking divine damage and we'd rock at it...<BR>So honestly nothing wrong with paladin.. just the content design on every mob is limited in its vision...</P><p>Message Edited by Daydeee on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:47 PM</span>

[Lairdragna]

Scar with all due respect, I don't give a flying phug about every other class.  I do care about 5 other classes though, all five tank classes that have been given serious advantages over the paladin and rendered us obsolete.  I do care about the SKs getting so much while we had food taken off of our plate in my opinion.  I do care about the fact that the paladin community never gets listened to.  And I would sure as heck hope that SOE would give a dam about what we think.  The fact we never get replies from devs EVER speaks volumes.So please tell me, which Dev raids T7 regularly as a paladin?  Not buffed and twinked for testing, but has actually spent years leveling and developing the character?<div></div>

[Scarrlette]

<blockquote><hr>Lairdragna wrote:Scar with all due respect, I don't give a flying phug about every other class.  I do care about 5 other classes though, all five tank classes that have been given serious advantages over the paladin and rendered us obsolete.  I do care about the SKs getting so much while we had food taken off of our plate in my opinion.  I do care about the fact that the paladin community never gets listened to.  And I would sure as heck hope that SOE would give a dam about what we think.  The fact we never get replies from devs EVER speaks volumes.So please tell me, which Dev raids T7 regularly as a paladin?  Not buffed and twinked for testing, but has actually spent years leveling and developing the character?<div></div><hr></blockquote>And I hear the same thing on a reg basis about every other class. I fail to see why any one class is more important than another.

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lairdragna wrote:<BR>Scar with all due respect, I don't give a flying phug about every other class.  I do care about 5 other classes though, all five tank classes that have been given serious advantages over the paladin and rendered us obsolete.  I do care about the SKs getting so much while we had food taken off of our plate in my opinion.  I do care about the fact that the paladin community never gets listened to.  And I would sure as heck hope that SOE would give a dam about what we think.  The fact we never get replies from devs EVER speaks volumes.<BR><BR>So please tell me, which Dev raids T7 regularly as a paladin?  Not buffed and twinked for testing, but has actually spent years leveling and developing the character?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thats not very respectable at all IMO - Scar is right the fact is a lot of classes are unhappy excet a few I also 2box a coercer and I love the AA EOF Lineup. </P> <P>But this thread is specifcally about the EOF Paladin AA's and I truly want to know why the devs feel that paladins dont need any taunt enhancements or Mitigation enhancements yet SKS do. Because we have the same exact taunts 1 direct 1 aoe with a debuff our taunts are stronger than theres but that is because we are more devensive while they are more offensive, so in the end it works out. If the intent was to grow our DPS to be in line with hate gain being generated that way then its still not enough because SKS get a MIT increaser that in essence steals MIT from a group member and gives it to them while we get a group MIT increase that increases everyones mit but our own and other fighters in the group - which is a nice idea but doesn't help the paladins tanking ability on any level given the new combat changes.</P>

[Kaleyen]

Realize Lair that it's not her job to go around finding posts for the devs to look into.  Her responsiblity lies in maintaining these boards to a somewhat PG-13 content and putting out flame bait with a box of cream soda.I hope the devs do read and are apart of this class, but the fact is that they haven't responded on the Paladin class after several hundred requests.  Asking a mod to force a dev to respond will get you nowhere.So keep fighting the good fight, and keep yourself shiny.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

Tnilf when is the last time Insurgence took Hurricanus, 3 Princes, or MO?When you answer, please remember my Paladin right now is on Mistmoore......<div></div>

[Lairdragna]

<div></div>Edited because dissent apparently can get your account banned.Free Phov!<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lairdragna on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:49 PM</span>

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:Tnilf when is the last time Insurgence took Hurricanus, 3 Princes, or MO?When you answer, please remember my Paladin right now is on Mistmoore......<div></div><hr></blockquote>Not sure how that is relevant to the conversation at hand.  We dont raid outside our raid times and last I checked those mobs dont spawn during our raid times.  Just b/c we havent killed something doesnt mean we arent capable of it given a cpl of pulls.  Now that I have answered your question how about you stop w/ your attacks and try attacking something relevant instead of wha wha wha.</div>

[Lairdragna]

OK, I've been just as negative as others here... more so than some.  I just don't think it is going to get us anywhere.  We're all frustrated, we all wish we could get some "face time" from the powers that be... but turning on each other isn't going to help matters.Can we try to take this in another direction, find some common ground?<div></div>

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lairdragna wrote:OK, I've been just as negative as others here... more so than some.  I just don't think it is going to get us anywhere.  We're all frustrated, we all wish we could get some "face time" from the powers that be... but turning on each other isn't going to help matters.Can we try to take this in another direction, find some common ground?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Do we both agree we get plenty of hps?power?and have the ability to keep aggro?</div>

[Lairdragna]

HPs are ok, power is insufficient, aggro is situational... think SKs got some much needed aggro love, but now makes us the [Removed for Content] step-child of tank classes for hate generation.<div></div>

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lairdragna wrote:HPs are ok, power is insufficient, aggro is situational... think SKs got some much needed aggro love, but now makes us the [Removed for Content] step-child of tank classes for hate generation.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Why do you say power is insufficient?  And why aggro situational?  I think it would help the discussion if we ignored other tank class comparisons.  Instead of pointing fingers at how we arent as good as someone else at something, instead saying what we need to be viable in our own way.  Personally I tend to view those arguments the same as the arguments that say we should get safefall and the ability to backstab and mez b/c other classes can do them.  Granted we compete w/ each other for spots on a raid but that doesnt mean that there is a direct relationship.  A raid leader who looks at a class and sees only dps/mit numbers is missing out on a lot of other benefits classes can give.</div>

[Lairdragna]

I'll make it simple for you, power and aggro control go hand in hand.  Hate is comprised of several factors: damage (we have worst dps of any tank class), taunts (our taunts are ok), healing (power intensive, interruptable).  To put it simply, generating hate requires us to use power hungry abilities that are subject to interrupts.  Our power is based upon strength and wisdom and our damage is based upon intelligence.  We need to focus on increasing all five abilities more than any other class (which means we can focus LESS in any particular ones... something has to give in the equation).Several suggestions have been given from lowering power costs (not 5% of a spell), increasing power pool while maintaining current power costs, making our power AND damage based upon two abilities - strength and wisdom (since the damage we do is DIVINE)... why did SKs get a switch to just needing strength and intelligence?I'm glad you are happy with the class changes Flint, but you are really standing alone here.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:Tnilf when is the last time Insurgence took Hurricanus, 3 Princes, or MO?When you answer, please remember my Paladin right now is on Mistmoore......<div></div><hr></blockquote>Not sure how that is relevant to the conversation at hand.  We dont raid outside our raid times and last I checked those mobs dont spawn during our raid times.  Just b/c we havent killed something doesnt mean we arent capable of it given a cpl of pulls.  Now that I have answered your question how about you stop w/ your attacks and try attacking something relevant instead of wha wha wha.</div><hr></blockquote>You said the following: "I have tanked everything there is to tank except matron and CD w/ zero problem."I wanted some clarification to that point, which was false.....<removed this part>...Now onto me attacking something relevant, well I have done that....for god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] months, and have never received a drop of feedback.   I have tanked every encounter except Matron and Chel'drak myself, and I have commented as such.  With that being said, we are both entitled to our opinion....and I am stressing my opinion that in my tanking experience the disparity is much larger then in your experience.</div><p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:05 PM</span>

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lairdragna wrote:I'll make it simple for you, power and aggro control go hand in hand.  Hate is comprised of several factors: damage (we have worst dps of any tank class), taunts (our taunts are ok), healing (power intensive, interruptable).  To put it simply, generating hate requires us to use power hungry abilities that are subject to interrupts.  Our power is based upon strength and wisdom and our damage is based upon intelligence.  We need to focus on increasing all five abilities more than any other class (which means we can focus LESS in any particular ones... something has to give in the equation).Several suggestions have been given from lowering power costs (not 5% of a spell), increasing power pool while maintaining current power costs, making our power AND damage based upon two abilities - strength and wisdom (since the damage we do is DIVINE)... why did SKs get a switch to just needing strength and intelligence?I'm glad you are happy with the class changes Flint, but you are really standing alone here.<div></div><hr></blockquote>The only time I see a mana issue when I am tanking is when the group isnt setup properly.  W/ the following setup aggro is no trouble for me and my power stays full, heart+shard+honor of pantrilla+manastone+dirge/coercer mana regen+FT whatever I have means very little power issue tanking:MeAssassinClericShamanDirge/CoercerConj/random high dpserI have more of a power issue when I am in full out heal mode, rather than tanking/dps.</div>

[Lairdragna]

Great, now answer Phov's questions...<div></div>

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lairdragna wrote:Great, now answer Phov's questions...<div></div><hr></blockquote>I never saw him ask any questions relevant to the discussion.</div>

[Lairdragna]

<blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Lairdragna wrote:Great, now answer Phov's questions...<div></div><hr></blockquote>I never saw him ask any questions relevant to the discussion.</div><hr></blockquote>You're right, one of the top paladins worldwide is asking about your real experience tanking and asking you to back up your assertions, but you see nothing relevant...  thank you for clarifying Flint.<div></div>

[FlintAH]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lairdragna wrote:<blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Lairdragna wrote:Great, now answer Phov's questions...<div></div><hr></blockquote>I never saw him ask any questions relevant to the discussion.</div><hr></blockquote>You're right, one of the top paladins worldwide is asking about your real experience tanking and asking you to back up your assertions, but you see nothing relevant...  thank you for clarifying Flint.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I have tanked warder, bloodbeat, venekor, tarinax, vyemm, talendor, gorenaire, amorphous etc....  Not sure how 3 contested = a huge disparity in our ability.  And just cuz he posts a lot doesnt mean he is the top WW.  There is always someone better than you, no matter who you are and what you do.  As far as hurricanus, you gotta be kidding right?  Princes I have seen a paladin tank all 3 after the brawler and guardian went down and them still win.  MO i dont know much about.  But if not tanking that one mob makes all my other experience irrelevant then whatever.  How are you building your tank group phov?  Are you just swapping you into your normal guard setup?  Each tank class needs a different setup in order to be fully effective.</div><p>Message Edited by FlintAH on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:21 PM</span>

[Lairdragna]

Your selective reading is weak.  I did not say Phov was the top, I said he was one of the top.  Are you arguing that?  Are you arguing Itoock is not one of the best?  I know Itoock's reputation personally as he is on my server and I have seen him in action.  He is a known commodity to me, you are not.  Phov is a well respected and known commodity as well.  So yes, his opinion and experience carries weight over your's especially when you can not answer the questions he raises.  Sorry if you do not see it that way.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

My normal Tank setup is pretty much a normal tank setup, with 1 change.PaladinTemplarDefilerCoercerSwashieWarden / Dirge / Bruiser (depending on people)My OT group setup was normally always:PaladinMysticTemplarBruiserSwashieCoercer.. .and even I don't consider myself the Top Paladin WW, in the Top3 probably - but not the top.<div></div>

[Lairdragna]

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] IT I DIDN'T SAY PHOV WAS <u>THE TOP</u> <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lairdragna wrote:[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] IT I DIDN'T SAY PHOV WAS <u>THE TOP</u> <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>It's ok man....give into it, join the Phov fanclub.... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Lairdragna]

Sorry dude, charter member and president for life of the Tookie of Nekkie Fan Club!<div></div>

[Wulfborne]

You guys are getting mental...must be getting late where you are. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>I do agree with Flint on one thing... I quite honestly do not have power consumption problems (on Live or Beta). Heals/wards were the most power-consuming for me, so I took a lot of the heal enhances in the EoF lines to help offset that. At present with my KoS/EoF lines in Beta I am comfortably content with my healing and DPS abilities. I don't expect to be stellar at either of those alone, so am ok with how they look at present. (Note I did NOT take the smite evil junk though, since just about everything I fight and tried it on says "No targets in range".However, my beef is with the fact that we simply can't take hits as well as I feel we should be able to. Not comparing to any other class - I feel that I have difficulty as a paladin tanking higher-end boss mob types. Should they be difficult? You bet. Should they be straight up un-doable? No... I can handle most heroic content, though in some cases with extreme difficulty (Nizhara). However the real disparity occurs with Epic raid-level encounters. My guild is rather decently equipped, and has worked on every single encounter in the game besides Matron extensively. They aren't clueless or under-equipped. So the raid should not come to a screeching halt when myself or another paladin needs to tank for a raid night, yet we get to a point in the raid where that's exactly what happens.I get the impression from Devs that our wards and heals were meant to be the answer to our lesser health pools and mitigation. (I'm not comparing to other classes, but our current health/mitigation/avoidance are subpar for effective tanking of epic boss mobs). Those things work on paper, in a vacuum, but in real-time play they simply can't make up the difference. Cast times, interrupts, and low heal/ward amounts make these things a large hinderance in our viability as a tank. By the time that 1300 point ward finally casts, we very well could have been hit for that much or more melee damage - let alone if any AEs hit in that time.Additionally, every time we stop dps'ing or taunting to lay down a ward or heal, we are effectively getting zero additional hate on our targets. That's unacceptable when you have a raid full of guildmates cranking out up to and well over one thousand DPS in many cases. We have a very powerful tool to help us maintain aggro - Amends. This is an incredible asset in a group, but in a raid setting, it's not nearly as effective.Bottom line, with no class comparisons, paladins need some more or better aggro generating tools, <u>and</u> either non-interruptable/zero cast time heals and wards, or a set of tools to increase the amount of damage we can absorb if we wish to tank reliably.~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<div></div>

[Caetrel]

Silly arguing top paladin in the game, considering there are prolly 20-50 or more all wearing same basic stuff...some of the better DT pieces, claymore final rewards, darkbough pauldrons etc....hooray itemization. Also prolly quite a few pallies have MT'd Tarinax, HoS, KoS contesteds... Point remains, pallies are disadvantaged tanks, perceived by the majority of players as non-MT material in the first place, and have not MT'd the hardest 2 encounters in the game- Cheldrak and DM. <div></div>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>For my part, with the starting of EoF, I will write to German game magazines and show them the problems with the paladins. </DIV> <DIV>So other player starting the game are warned to roll a Paladin. </DIV> <DIV>EoF will kill us. I think seriously about doing treacher to Freeport and become a Shadowknight or play up my bruiser/troubadour. </DIV> <DIV>I like being a Paladin, I know the game a bit. But even now, other classes outmatch Paladins to much. </DIV> <DIV>With Guardians and Berserkers taking the MT-Role for them, it is hard to equip yourself to max level. </DIV> <DIV>The Problems with</DIV> <DIV>- armor not designed for 3-5 Stat enhancement (Strength, Stamina, Wisdom or all five Stats) for Paladins. </DIV> <DIV>- Ill designend KoS AA (Agility Line, broken Immunity skill, no double attack)</DIV> <DIV>- No Taunt-Line in EoF AA </DIV> <DIV>- Improper Damage (arround general 20-30% increase suitable)</DIV> <DIV>- Mitigation/Avoidance problem</DIV> <DIV>are to much in a whole. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The increase of aggro with all classes will kill us!</DIV>

[Rarlin]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lynassihr wrote:<div> </div> <div>The increase of aggro with all classes will kill us!</div><hr></blockquote>I must humbly disagree with you on this point.  Have a % based aggro transfer, this will not affect us "as much" as other classes and may (in certain situations) help us.</div>

[Knesh]

Come EoF based on whats currently in BETA and testing paladins will be the least wanted class on raids

[Rarlin]

<div><blockquote><hr>Knesh wrote:<div></div>Come EoF based on whats currently in BETA and testing paladins will be the least wanted class on raids<hr></blockquote>This statement I have to humbly AGREE with.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Honestly guys, we can solo well, we can group tank well (at least I'm not having any trouble), it's the raid situation that we need just a little help.  I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that we're screaming for a total revamp of our class, I think the frustration has been due more to the lack of communciation.</div>

[Knesh]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rarlin wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Knesh wrote:<BR> Come EoF based on whats currently in BETA and testing paladins will be the least wanted class on raids<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This statement I have to humbly AGREE with.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Honestly guys, we can solo well, we can group tank well (at least I'm not having any trouble), it's the raid situation that we need just a little help.  I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong) that we're screaming for a total revamp of our class, I think the frustration has been due more to the lack of communciation.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You are correct we are not asking for a revamp and in fact I love my current paladin setup. I can raid most T7 mobs and not have an issue offtanking and overall assistance is what I like. Knowing that I am there if the MT goes down for whatever reason to pickup the slack until the MT gets rezzed or whatever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now SKS will be the ultimate Offtank with there increase in taunts lower recast and mit buffs with parry and better lifetaps. They already generate a lot of agro because they are high INT tanks. This is a win win for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All paladins gets are better healing which lets face it during a raid if we have to self heal our selves and taunt and do combat arts to generate the same agro = stupid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SKS got some excellent EOF love while paladins are the red headed crusader step-child. Balance is a hard thing to do but balancing is NOT making 1 class better than the other in 1 expansion and then making the other class better in next.</DIV> <DIV><BR>There is no reason why SKS or paladins can't be on par with different abilites, but making 3 seperate EoF Aa's with dmg increasers then 1 with healing and ZERO with mit bonuses or taunt bonuses = total crap when paladins are tank and healer hybird - meaning we have TWO paths to travel in - TANK or HEALING. If Alternate achievement is available and designed to further enhance our character.</DIV>

[Sedi]

<P>Prolly not big news to most of you but id just like to say...</P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Sedila/EQ2_000039.jpg" target=_blank>http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Sedila/EQ2_000039.jpg</A></P> <P><STRONG>ONE </STRONG>Swash/brigand AA from KoS > all Pally Kos and EoF AAs combined. Go go Sony!</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Sedila on <span class=date_text>11-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:27 AM</span>

[Lairdragna]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sedila wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>Prolly not big news to most of you but id just like to say...</p> <p><a href="http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Sedila/EQ2_000039.jpg" target="_blank">http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Sedila/EQ2_000039.jpg</a></p> <p><strong>ONE </strong>Swash/brigand AA from KoS > all Pally Kos and EoF AAs combined. Go go Sony!</p> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Sedila on <span class="date_text">11-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:27 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>/throws hands in the air and walks awayI give up!  My guild leader feels so bad for what is happening to our class that he actually asked if I wanted to betray and he would get me SK useable armor and adept 3s.  He doesn't even see the point of me carrying on with the class.His words... "bud, if you want to raid in the expansion you will need to be in the group with the melee dps to give them your mit buff and damage procs."So that's it, I no longer have a spot on a raid other than buffing a melee dps group, group healing them, and giving them damage procs.Tell me again how I'm a TANK?</div>

[lavasoul]

<DIV>Haha, sorry guys I'm sitting here and I just can't help but have to laugh when I get into the paladin forum.:smileyhappy: </DIV> <DIV>There is a big storm coming and I'm not sure if we live thru this one.</DIV>

[ChopStix]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lavasoul wrote:<BR> <DIV>Haha, sorry guys I'm sitting here and I just can't help but have to laugh when I get into the paladin forum.:smileyhappy: </DIV> <DIV>There is a big storm coming and I'm not sure if we live thru this one.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yep, i seen this as soon as the nda was lifted .. the paladin class will no longer be remotely needed on a raid, a single group maybe but doubtful, with the population of guardians and zerkers and sk's why would anyone want a paladin to tank in a single group?

[ChopStix]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lairdragna wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sedila wrote:<BR> <P>Prolly not big news to most of you but id just like to say...</P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Sedila/EQ2_000039.jpg" target=_blank>http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b136/Sedila/EQ2_000039.jpg</A></P> <P><STRONG>ONE </STRONG>Swash/brigand AA from KoS > all Pally Kos and EoF AAs combined. Go go Sony!</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Sedila on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:27 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>/throws hands in the air and walks away<BR><BR>I give up!  My guild leader feels so bad for what is happening to our class that he actually asked if I wanted to betray and he would get me SK useable armor and adept 3s.  He doesn't even see the point of me carrying on with the class.<BR><BR>His words... "bud, if you want to raid in the expansion you will need to be in the group with the melee dps to give them your mit buff and damage procs."<BR><BR>So that's it, I no longer have a spot on a raid other than buffing a melee dps group, group healing them, and giving them damage procs.<BR><BR>Tell me again how I'm a TANK?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>that might be a good option for you, at least you have that option..... i'm on vox/pvp my guild is in queynos, so i dont even have that option.... I'm tankful :] that i rolled a beserker in anticipation of eof lessening the paladin class even more and i think i was correct assuming it, as it stands...   I wouldnt betray right off if i were in your position, but soe needs to announce its plans with the paladin class, and explain what they are doing and thinking , why the paladin class is getting gimped as tanks moreso than before, and why we arent getting mit and hate aa's, so people wont waste thier time on a paladin as a tanking roll and in some way they need to repay the ones that have played a paladin for a while, because we are the ones that have wasted so much time on a useless class even more now than before..  The paladins definetly dont fit in a fighter class now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</P> <P> we need input from developers and we are getting nothing, I'm really getting tired of the wait and see soe is feeding this class, in turn we keep getting nerfed to non exsistence....</P> <P>if soe's intentions are, of doing away with this class alltogether, they're doing a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good job...  why dont they just delete the class alltogether and not even offer the choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</P>

[Kenji11]

<P>As Itoock said, too many threads on the same thing makes posting, and reffering to posts a pain, anyway, I remember somebody proposed something about zero casting time heals. Honestly thats not a bad idea, make an AA that lowers the cost of heals by 10% per rank (50% at rank 5), and reduces casting time by 20% per rank (zero cast time at 5). This would affect all heals (single, ward, sacrament, group). This way when we are tanking, and get hit we can instantly recover hp, rather than casting, then getting interrupted, then recasting, and once it finishes, we are already at 100%, so we wasted power, less it was the ward.</P> <P>Hmm, now that I think about it some more, why not just have a "Hero" AA that reduces the power cost on EVERYTHING by say 30-40% at rank 5, and makes ALL casting times zero. With that, we can instantly react to damage thereby reducting the amount of damage we essentially take, while getting more aggro for ourselves, and can last longer due to a reduced power cost.</P> <P>As far as unbalancing us compared to healers, hmm, well I could be general, but thats gonna take to long, so im gonna do numbers.</P> <P>Fervent Aid m1: 864-1056 with 5s recast and no cast time: 192 hp/s</P> <P>Devotion m1: 1376 with 15s recast: 91.73 hp/s</P> <P>Prayer of Consecration m1: 876-1071 with 7.5s recast:  129.8 hp/s per target</P> <P>Reverent Sacrament m1: 2099-2566 with 300s recast: 7.78 hp/s</P> <P>So with no casting time, if we spammed all our heals as they came up, and all were used to thier utmost ( no 1k heal on a person down only 300 hp), we would achieve 421.31 hp/s. In contrast, a templar using a master of Glorious Intercession (to its maximum extent, target is hit 5 times within 8 seconds and the heal goes off for its full effect) can put out 301 hp/s. Add in Dire Intercession for another 224 hp/s and we are easily outhealed by only 2 spells, so I wouldnt say that we are going to be imposing on healer territory.</P> <P>(If anyone is curious as to how I get the templar numbers, I took the min heal+max heal, divided by 2, multiplied by the number of uses, and divided by the cast+recast time)</P>

[Lairdragna]

Instacast and the ability to lower recasts would be HUGE!  This would go a long way to making me happier.<div></div>

[Faelgalad]

<P>Fellow Citizens, fellow Paladins,</P> <P>Not a single person with any responsibilty for this will look into this thread. You can write whatever you want.</P> <P>I guess we can agree on that. They let us debate here as an outflow for frustration.</P> <P> </P> <P>If we want to change something, there are two ways. None of these have to do with an Forum.  </P> <P>Write peditions en masse, stating that the design of the Paladin class doesn't fit to the official description from SOE.</P> <P>Secondly (and IMHO the better way) start writing game magazines, who certainly like to hear bad news, bad news is interesting news. Stating there that SOE</P> <P>let a whole class die and wither away. A neglected class is no good promotion when it becomes public, remember the Everquest-WoW comparision. With many people in fantasy genre comparing Paladins to their AD&D and Diablo2 counterparts (where they could stand up easily against fighters/barbarian by different abilities, I loved my Hammerdim, Shockdim), many people will find it interesting to read that SOE-Paladins are neglected.</P> <P> </P> <P>Btw. my guild (biggest on Innovation-Server) was shockes as I declared that I would wait 4-6 weeks after EoF and then become Traitor and beeing a Shadowknight.</P> <P>Thanks SOE for wasting my time that I invested in my most beloved charakter. Changing her concept! I want to be more than a mitigation-battery for an Shadowknight! More than just a third class tank.</P>

[Vathranen]

I betrayed my PvE Paladin to a Shadowknight last month (for soloing capability) and after seeing the EoF AA tree all I have to say is....HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAHI feel for you guys. I still have a 69 Paladin on PvP server collecting dust. May just go ahead and delete him for an extra fae slot.The funniest one I see in there is the 15% increase for Faithful Swing. I didn't even have that crap on my hotbar. /snicker<div></div>

[Kaleyen]

What gaming magazines do you suggest?<div></div>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vathranen wrote:<BR>I betrayed my PvE Paladin to a Shadowknight last month (for soloing capability) and after seeing the EoF AA tree all I have to say is....<BR><BR>HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH<BR><BR>I feel for you guys. I still have a 69 Paladin on PvP server collecting dust. May just go ahead and delete him for an extra fae slot.<BR><BR>The funniest one I see in there is the 15% increase for Faithful Swing. I didn't even have that crap on my hotbar. /snicker<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>PVP Pallies will rock, they have an entire aa line devoted to PVP...another to healing...what more could a PVP player want.

[enjoilab]

a 1 shot??

[Kaleyen]

I'm exile...half the people I kill are qeynos based toons...smite evil isn't worth the points for me!<div></div>

[enjoilab]

but isnt it worth i when you 1 shot zoxuf or fiz (or whatever his name is now) or maybe even a few pies?

[Kaleyen]

I don't need a 1 shot skill to enjoy pie <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Vathranen]

<div></div>A whole line of PvP abilities that you get to put on your hotbar to look pretty? I couldn't cast the spells I had what with all the brigand/bruiser stuns going on. The damage isn't that impressive either.Honestly, it looks to me like they buffed up the parts of each class that were severely lacking. Paladins needed some love in PvP and it's good that they got some. For me it's too little too late. It's not possible to balance PvP in this game. The only way I could play a Paladin in PvP again is if they made us immune to interrupts. As it is now (or as it was when I left) it's just a fiasco of frustration wherein my group dies around me while I tap group heal in vain hoping it'll go off. Or, alternately, I could play my swashbuckler and winwinwinwinwin with no risk of ever losing. God-mode isn't fun either.Nah I'll stick to PvE and use Battlefield when I need to PvP. I haven't looked at the Shadowknight AA's but from what I've heard they're quite impressive - buffing up the aspects that were most lacking - normal grouping aggro control.EDIT1: Hey Liluk how's Gildon doing?EDIT2: Liluk, you know you could have leveled up a zerker or a swashbuckler by now <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:09 AM</span>

[Sedi]

funny thing is there upgrading SK's Death march... i mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].. can you say instant aggro already!? oh wait wait. i must be outa my mind. we get a leet 5 more seconds on our Sigi of Heroism! WOOT! /sarcasim off.

[Lairdragna]

Oh lovely, so we were "balanced" so it was a better class for PvP?What was the promise from the Devs... PvP would NEVER effect the PvE game?<div></div>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>@Kaleyen</DIV> <DIV>For my part, we have the following major games magazines in Germany that are sold thoughout the whole country. </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.pcgames.de/" target=_blank>http://www.pcgames.de/</A></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.computerbild.de/" target=_blank>http://www.computerbild.de/</A> Computerbild Spiele</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.gamestar.de/index.html" target=_blank>http://www.gamestar.de/index.html</A></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.gamepro.de/cgi-bin/vorschaltseite/heft.mpl" target=_blank>http://www.gamepro.de/cgi-bin/vorschaltseite/heft.mpl</A></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.cynamite.de/" target=_blank>http://www.cynamite.de/</A> Games Aktuell/PC Powerplay</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.pcaction.de/" target=_blank>http://www.pcaction.de/</A></DIV> <DIV>Together arround 500.000 readers in a 80 Million people country. </DIV> <DIV>Writing six reader letters to six magazines is no real work. </DIV> <DIV>I will try to get a few fellow Paladins/Guildmembers to do the same after EoF Launch, lending weight to it. </DIV> <DIV>SOE is misleading their customers about the Paladins as an Warrior, so no reason not to make this public. </DIV> <DIV>We have an German Online fan magazine for Everquest. <A href="http://www.norrath-news.de/" target=_blank>http://www.norrath-news.de/</A></DIV> <DIV>Will also get an article. </DIV>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>One Point not discussed, as I see our tree in graphic. </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=30367" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=30367</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ever be aware, only our Area Spells are improved (crap lifeleech on a weal single attack neglected)?</DIV> <DIV>What in the name of his holiness the pope is that?</DIV> <DIV>There are more than enough situations where Areaeffects are not desired. </DIV> <DIV>And they are all Powerburner. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And why have we "Doom Judgment" in?</DIV> <DIV>Can someone with more intelligence than me describe this in simple words to me?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As PvP should not touch PvE, why we have we SmiteEvil?</DIV> <DIV>Has every other class an pure PvP Skill? No? So let's drop Smite Evil, it's an drawback for the </DIV> <DIV>other classes not to be included into getting such an precious skill. I don't want to be pampered with a special other don't have. </DIV> <DIV>/irony off</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Scadie]

It´s really outrageous that we don´t get any response from a red named..<BR>Weeks ago the paladin community pointed out a lot of our issues post KOS and incoming EoF. In addition to this list of issues this community gave some really constructive improvement ideas. Why in the name of god you red named´s don´t notice us.. are we second class customer!!

[Sedi]

why notice us? they prolly have better things to do like give Berserkers more dps or something to make things even more unbalanced. honestly.. dont expect anything from the Devs. You may as well go ahead and quit your pally.

[Rarlin]

Well,The deity abilities seemed cool IMO... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Honestly, I'm coming around a bit now that I feel a sense of direction.  Maybe it's not communicated, but just read inbetween the lines.  Our AAs advance our tanking ability only minimally, but we are offered some help with support/healing.  Our primary deity (Mr. Marr <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) gives us more utility tools (granted they are short duration).  So we'll have more and more of a support role on raids.  Maybe it's because I'm having a bad day at work and I just realized this is a game, but I'm not getting all that upset anymore. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rarlin wrote:<BR>Well,<BR>The deity abilities seemed cool IMO... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Honestly, I'm coming around a bit now that I feel a sense of direction.  Maybe it's not communicated, but just read inbetween the lines.  Our AAs advance our tanking ability only minimally, but we are offered some help with support/healing.  Our primary deity (Mr. Marr <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) gives us more utility tools (granted they are short duration).  So we'll have more and more of a support role on raids.  <BR><BR>Maybe it's because I'm having a bad day at work and I just realized this is a game, but I'm not getting all that upset anymore. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My issue with taking diety quests as a 'bone' being thrown to us, is that any other tank (other than SKs and bruisers) can go the exact same route and have these same short duration abilities.</P> <P>Honestly, after tanking around a bit last night, I'm starting to just feel numb. I get interrupted/stifled/stunned so much that I can't make use of any of the heals effectively (at least in the EoF zones - KoS ones still seem normal for that), and when those mobs hit, it's like being run over by a Mack truck. When I can solo a lvl 71 ^ without major difficulty (through good ward/heal dropping in Offensive mode), why in the WORLD does a lvl 71 ^^^ drop me in about 3 seconds flat when I am in defensive mode? I don't expect to solo it, but <EM>come on</EM>! Even in small groups, those lvl 71^^^'s wiped out every paladin that I saw attempt to tank them. (I watched no fewer than 4 groups with paladins in them as tanks attempt it).</P> <P>I dunno. I like to solo and small group as well as raid, so maybe I can live off some of that for a while. It is getting glaringly obvious that we're not intended to tank this expansion, and from posts of many other classes, it doesn't look like they even want us to have it as an option. *sigh*</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P><p>Message Edited by Wulfborne on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:06 AM</span>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Vathranen wrote:<div></div>EDIT1: Hey Liluk how's Gildon doing?EDIT2: Liluk, you know you could have leveled up a zerker or a swashbuckler by now <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class="date_text">11-09-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:09 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>1.  He just got acop for 4p off the broker and he keeps pwning me with amends, and it costs more to repair in the haven <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />2.  I know I could have, but I like the Crusader class, was a 65SK in EQ1 and I loved my utility....LOVED it!  That and I was lucky enough to be guild hunting when DoM was looking for ONE and only ONE Paladin on their roster.</div>

[Thistleknot]

Look! We finally got a dev response to all the comments on the state of paladins after EoF!!http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=echoesoffaydwer&message.id=29324#M29324Amazing... don't have time to actually reply to issues, but have time to screw around on the forums.<div></div>

[Kaleyen]

Sweet a response in a Pally thread by the red names and it's to lock the thread...SWEET!<div></div>

[Monfar]

<blockquote><hr>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=echoesoffaydwer&message.id=29324#M29324<div></div><hr></blockquote>hmm , that is rather lame and disrespectfull to the paladin community.

[Rarlin]

<div><blockquote><hr>Monfar wrote:<blockquote><hr>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=echoesoffaydwer&message.id=29324#M29324<div></div><hr></blockquote>hmm , that is rather lame and disrespectfull to the paladin community.<hr></blockquote>Maybe it is, but consider the amount of disrespect we've been giving them in the past few days.  Just because they have red letters doesn't mean they are humans.  I know that I could never do their job because I'd be showing you my 80 hour schedule right before a launch and asking when you suggest I take the appropriate time to rewrite an entire class definition.</div>

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rarlin wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Monfar wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR><BR><BR>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=echoesoffaydwer&message.id=29324#M29324<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>hmm , that is rather lame and disrespectfull to the paladin community.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe it is, but consider the amount of disrespect we've been giving them in the past few days.  Just because they have red letters doesn't mean they are humans.  I know that I could never do their job because I'd be showing you my 80 hour schedule right before a launch and asking when you suggest I take the appropriate time to rewrite an entire class definition.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is besides the point they are paid to make this game. The fact is SOE has there lost imagination when it comes to creating MMO's. There copy and paste attitude is getting quite tiring. It just so happens there lack of imagination is killing this game and I enjoy playing it ver much in its current status which I think many do too..</P> <P>The game is supposed to evolve into better ideas and more powerful classes. That is the point, no?</P> <P>Otherwise given these AA's what incentive do you have to pay $40 for the expansion? Just new content to run through? If SOE can't come up with awesome AA abilities for each of there how many classes? 24 or something like that never counted, then maybe they should not create them in the first place.... Then there would be nothing to bicker or fight over IMO.</P>

[FlintAH]

<div><blockquote><hr>Knesh wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Rarlin wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Monfar wrote: <blockquote> <hr> http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=echoesoffaydwer&message.id=29324#M29324 <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>hmm , that is rather lame and disrespectfull to the paladin community. <hr> </blockquote>Maybe it is, but consider the amount of disrespect we've been giving them in the past few days.  Just because they have red letters doesn't mean they are humans.  I know that I could never do their job because I'd be showing you my 80 hour schedule right before a launch and asking when you suggest I take the appropriate time to rewrite an entire class definition.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>That is besides the point they are paid to make this game. The fact is SOE has there lost imagination when it comes to creating MMO's. There copy and paste attitude is getting quite tiring. It just so happens there lack of imagination is killing this game and I enjoy playing it ver much in its current status which I think many do too..</p> <p>The game is supposed to evolve into better ideas and more powerful classes. That is the point, no?</p> <p>Otherwise given these AA's what incentive do you have to pay $40 for the expansion? Just new content to run through? If SOE can't come up with awesome AA abilities for each of there how many classes? 24 or something like that never counted, then maybe they should not create them in the first place.... Then there would be nothing to bicker or fight over IMO.</p><hr></blockquote>Being paid to do a job doesnt mean they are less human.  And if they didnt put AAs in you would [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about them not adding them.  I am kinda glad that these are what we are getting.  Then you will cancel and I wont have to read the crybaby attitude everytime i read the boards.</div>

[Knesh]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FlintAH wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Knesh wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rarlin wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Monfar wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR><BR><BR>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=echoesoffaydwer&message.id=29324#M29324<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>hmm , that is rather lame and disrespectfull to the paladin community.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe it is, but consider the amount of disrespect we've been giving them in the past few days.  Just because they have red letters doesn't mean they are humans.  I know that I could never do their job because I'd be showing you my 80 hour schedule right before a launch and asking when you suggest I take the appropriate time to rewrite an entire class definition.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is besides the point they are paid to make this game. The fact is SOE has there lost imagination when it comes to creating MMO's. There copy and paste attitude is getting quite tiring. It just so happens there lack of imagination is killing this game and I enjoy playing it ver much in its current status which I think many do too..</P> <P>The game is supposed to evolve into better ideas and more powerful classes. That is the point, no?</P> <P>Otherwise given these AA's what incentive do you have to pay $40 for the expansion? Just new content to run through? If SOE can't come up with awesome AA abilities for each of there how many classes? 24 or something like that never counted, then maybe they should not create them in the first place.... Then there would be nothing to bicker or fight over IMO.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Being paid to do a job doesnt mean they are less human.  And if they didnt put AAs in you would [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about them not adding them.  I am kinda glad that these are what we are getting.  Then you will cancel and I wont have to read the crybaby attitude everytime i read the boards.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh look more trolling!!! I love trolls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me do a search for your cries when conjurors were fubared back in the day... I am sure there are plenty of them!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>i'll have to agree with knesh again...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> it seems like many class's except for the paladin are getting many upgrades in the right direction, for example the shadow knight, guardian,beserker, they are going to be an even tougher opponent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> in turn the paladin with its lackluster achievement abilities and need for all personal statistics being str., sta., agi., wis., and int. is drasticly at a disadvatage and always will be, unless there is new gear in game, specific for a paladin and i dont mean relic armor, with all stats on it and a +mitigation on top of the armors mitigation moreso than other class's have,and not needing a lvl70 x4 raid in hopes it drops the item or items...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> a paladin specific questline maybe, i know that would be drastic but we need a bone,something atleast and we're not getting it..</DIV>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>in return to my own post..   i am glad i rolled a beserker in anticipation to this expansion, for some reason i could see all this coming on the paladin class, but was still hoping for a rather large improvement in the paladin class abillities but for some reason i knew it wasnt going to happen... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> i like the layout of the game, i really like the layout of most of the quests, i dont like having to camp a named to complete a heritage quest but i guess thats part of it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> i dont like the fact that the paladin class is being put on the back burner though, which i believe the developers have done! all they have really improved are our heals, and everyone knows interrupts break them, inturn making them pretty much useless, and the damage output and interupts by mobs in the expansion is even worse than it was before with the combat/stat revamp..</DIV>

[Lairdragna]

<div><blockquote><hr>Thistleknot wrote:Look! We finally got a dev response to all the comments on the state of paladins after EoF!!http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=echoesoffaydwer&message.id=29324#M29324Amazing... don't have time to actually reply to issues, but have time to screw around on the forums.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Well I guess we now have confirmation as to where exactly we stand...</div>

[Valphine]

oh well...I guess I can live with that... but if SK getting good tank AAs I cant.<div></div>

[Asdran]

Valphine wrote: " oh well...I guess I can live with that... but if SK getting good tank AAs I cant."RIPAs an ex-Paladin I've found reading this thread hilarious.  Paladin's have aggro issues?  Yeah, pull the other one.Shadowknights currently have no, nadda, zip hate transfer.  Put all crusader taunts side by side and what do you find:<ul><li>Single target - tick,  although SK is taunt over time, so no instant aggro</li><li>Group taunt with a debuff - tick</li><li>Shield Bash - tick</li><li>Sigil - hmm, no, but SK do get a damage shield with a bit of hate (way smaller than guardians)</li></ul>Whats missing from this list, hmm?AMENDS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Its no wonder SK have (Death March), and are (EoF) getting some taunt upgrades, 'cause if you think our dps makes up for the amount of hate you get from amends, I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you.Survivability, we'll have to see if Mitigation is no longer god, then both classes will get closer to Warriors.  Resists though are in Paladin's favour, as it's no longer going to give us power, so we have to raise it just for the resists alone<div></div>

[Lairdragna]

I just made a shadowknight on beta.  Never played one past level 12.  Betabuff plused him and headed out to see what I could do.  Keep in mind he may be betabuffed plus, but he has worse gear than my pally.  Not having a clue what to do with the various spells and abilities I was able to chew through groups of mobs in no time, never died once and came to a sad realization... my best course of action to actually be useful is to betray.  Not that I want to be an SK, but the class is THAT much better and with the recent changes will be that much more useful to my guild.  I hesitate to think what I could do with that class if I actually knew what I was doing!I hit tap veins when I was in the red against a group of 8 or 9 green arrow up kobolds and was almost completely healed with the crit heal down the intelligence line.  And with the casting reducer I can tap veins once every 50 seconds.  Let me get this straight, its a nasty aoe like 950 per mob, it heals around 450 or so PER mob, and I can use it every 50 seconds versus every 12.5 minutes for my reduced recast lay hands line that heals for less per use.DPS... man I never had DPS before... it was amazing.So two years of making my paladin what he is, 8 months of KoS raiding... down the drain?  I think I hear Baby Jesus crying too...What are pallies asking for?  Better tanking abilities.  We aren't asking for better aggro, we are asking for more hp, a larger power pool as promised, MITIGATION...  Our 1380 point ward castable once every 15-20 seconds (don't remember the exact timer) is inferior to a temp mit buff.  Once a ward drops it is gone until the recast timer passes.  Mit buffs last longer and provide better survivability against epic mobs.  Make our heals instacast.  If we are going to have lower health pools and take more damage, the ability to get those heals off is paramount.  No more interrupts!  I'll even accept a 20% downgrade in the heal if it is instant and we can place our AAs to say lower the 20% penalty to 10% if you spend 5 AAs.I'm glad SKs got love, don't want to see them nerfed, just want us to see a little too.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

I thought about betraying, but I can't be bothered with getting all the masters....lol, all my gear would work, but I couldn't stand having to find 20+ masters <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>20 Master, I can understand you MeridianR, that is a real lot of work down the pipe. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My Raidcom discusses to pay my SK-Adept III from our Raidstash. </DIV> <DIV>Master will come with time (have only 3, also an Def-Master, an Present of our Sister Raid, bothers me to throw</DIV> <DIV>such an Present down the....)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But they don't want to loose the Paladin guiding them, in both senses. </DIV> <DIV>Being Raidleader is the only AA I can useful throw in. </DIV> <DIV>All the time, I can't bring in a real Boost in Damage, can't handle an T7 Epic</DIV> <DIV>nearly as our Berserker or Guardian. </DIV> <DIV>If I could AcraCadabra, I would become a Guardian/Priest...</DIV> <DIV>And with these Drawbacks I can't get the good Equipment, as it goes to Berserkers and Guardians, </DIV> <DIV>even our Templers. </DIV>

[MeridianR]

Yeah if I feel like playing EQ2 again, I might end up betraying....but only having A3's isn't good enough for me....so I would have to pickup the majority of masters.  (Yeah before any says anything I understand A3's aren't bad....but for my playstyle, I need the best)<div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>You guys mean Paladins got the shaft again?!</P> <P>you dont say...who would have thunk it.... :smileyindifferent:</P> <P> </P>

[Vathranen]

I made another post about Shadowknights compared to Paladins <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=30462" target=_blank>here</a> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class=date_text>11-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:41 AM</span>

[Faelgalad]

<DIV>Under the asumption that Paladins should be "Hybrid" or "fill the gap".</DIV> <DIV>Why do the Dev's don't do it right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's give us 3 Skills which are not defined.</DIV> <DIV>With this three skills, we could "snatch" every tanks or priests skills of the good site, all from</DIV> <DIV>the same class.</DIV> <DIV>Your Raid is lacking an Mystic? No Problem any longer, the Paladin takes wards.</DIV> <DIV>The Guardian is in holiday, the Paladin takes two Guardian taunts and the mitigation buff.</DIV> <DIV>Reuse of the "Switch" Skill to select new skills, 1-2 hours.</DIV> <DIV>Even maybe as new EoF AA Skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then, we would be very cable characters. For Solo, Group or Raid. Versatile.</DIV> <DIV>Then we are Hybrid <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[PolarBear77]

<P>Holy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you guys still [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ign about this OMGZZZZZZZZ  the only way we are gunna ever gunna be tanks if to do these 3 simple and easy steps </P> <P>Step 1  /delete (insert Paladins name) </P> <P>Step 2  drive to you local store and buy Vanguard</P> <P>step 3  Install it and  welcome to a paladin class that can tank</P> <P> atm paladins FLUCKING own warriors in tanking  gg SoE on killing your paladin fan base :smileywink:</P>

[Vathranen]

Vanguard is Vaporware.<div></div>

[Daydeee]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lynassihr wrote:<BR> <DIV>Under the asumption that Paladins should be "Hybrid" or "fill the gap".</DIV> <DIV>Why do the Dev's don't do it right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's give us 3 Skills which are not defined.</DIV> <DIV>With this three skills, we could "snatch" every tanks or priests skills of the good site, all from</DIV> <DIV>the same class.</DIV> <DIV>Your Raid is lacking an Mystic? No Problem any longer, the Paladin takes wards.</DIV> <DIV>The Guardian is in holiday, the Paladin takes two Guardian taunts and the mitigation buff.</DIV> <DIV>Reuse of the "Switch" Skill to select new skills, 1-2 hours.</DIV> <DIV>Even maybe as new EoF AA Skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then, we would be very cable characters. For Solo, Group or Raid. Versatile.</DIV> <DIV>Then we are Hybrid <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You mean the paladin becomes to Eq2 what the Agent is to AO? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />