Problems since betraying

[Surian1]

<DIV>I was a former 70 Shadowknight an was able to take as high as a 65^^^ herioc solo...but since betraying I can't even do a 64 like that... taking massive damage... Have better mitigation now that I did as a sk... Has anyone had this problem before?</DIV> <DIV>Current mitigation is 3864 and avd is 45.3....</DIV><p>Message Edited by Surian123 on <span class=date_text>10-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:59 PM</span>

[holypaladin28]

did you remaster your spells dont forogt all spells went to app 1 spells.while im not lvl 70 i can solo an her ^^^ mob four lvls under me most of the timeyour MIT is kinda low IMHO i mean self buffeds i have 3300 and im not even in the same tier and i know at lvl 66 i will have my pally above 4k mit as i have most of the gear waiting for me already<p>Message Edited by holypaladin2819 on <span class=date_text>10-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:01 PM</span>

[Surian1]

<P>I current have just adept 1's an a few 3's.... I just picked up all adepts from 40---up</P><p>Message Edited by Surian123 on <span class=date_text>10-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>

[holypaladin28]

that could be why before i started paying attention to my spells i couldnt solo [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. i have about 90 percent of my spells master the rest adept three

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>Surian123 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>I was a former 70 Shadowknight an was able to take as high as a 65^^^ herioc solo...but since betraying I can't even do a 64 like that... taking massive damage... Have better mitigation now that I did as a sk... Has anyone had this problem before?</div> <div>Current mitigation is 3864 and avd is 45.3....</div><p>Message Edited by Surian123 on <span class="date_text">10-16-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:59 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>SKs solo better than Paladins.  Feign death, lifetap, and better dps make a difference.  Paladins make up for this with heals, amends, sigil of heroism.  In groups we have possibly the best aggro control.  I personally think it is the best, although it has a few bugs.  In raids we are better than SKs because a 2nd tank group often doesn't need a hate buffer.  Amends on a brawler, brigand, or assassin can be nice.  Sure an SK can do ~100-200 more dps but if the raid needed dps it could just bring a scout, caster, or berserker instead..</div>

[Nicholai24]

^-------------- NerdGet your spells upgraded to AdIII, and your mitigation above 4000 at least, before you try to compare the classes. Paladins are much more defensive, so their durability is a lot more important than a shadowknight's.<div></div>

[Fatuus]

<P>Soloing as a paladin, no matter how good you are...takes tons of time. The base damage of the paladin's biggest nuke is about 1/5th that of an SK. What paladin's bring to the table thats very helpful when soloing or 2 boxing with a strong DPSer is their ward. I can ward myself for 1400 damage at a very low power cost...similarly the direct heal costs as much power and heals for half as much damage. While a ward isn't a "heal" it functions the same when a mob goes thru it. I choose to go down the Wisdom and STR lines on the aa tree so I also get an in combat health regen similar to that of a zerker. While not a ton of health...it does add up after a while.</P> <P>Learning how to fight effectively as a paladin is probably the best advice I can give you. A paladin soloing on any fight against any difficult opponent is basically one of power management...quite different from that of an SK or scout that focused more on burning it down faster.</P> <P>Specific advice:</P> <P>1) If your ward isn't at adept III, you're pretty foolish...and its probably dirt cheap to get it at master I now...it sells pretty routinely on my server for around 5 plat now.</P> <P>2) Get your self heal at adept III too...its a low power high heal thats on only a 5 min timer.</P> <P>3) Focus on getting weapons that do high proc damage...essecially divine damage. My current axe does a nice divine damage proc...so since I can DEBUFF divine it does even more damage.</P> <P>4) Use your group taunt BEFORE using your high damage Nukes...it will add about 20% to the total damage done by the nukes at an extremely low power cost...you could even tie it in with an HO for some added damage.</P> <P>5) Get some better mit gear. I am at 5k mit in my normal gear and 5.6k when in total mit gear. Its not that hard to have 4 to 4.5 k mit if you don't raid as a paladin IF you work on it.</P> <P>6) If you're quick you can toggle between offensive and defensive stances prior to casting your big nukes...you can toggle back to defensive while the recast timers cycle. This quick toggling costs you no power and will add another 15% base damage to your nukes.</P> <P>Hope this helps.</P>

[morningmists]

<DIV>"The base damage of the paladin's biggest nuke is about 1/5th that of an SK"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is absolustely untrue, there is barely any difference at all. Myself 70k and guildy 70 paly have compared plenty of times. There is almost no difference at all in the lines that run the same thru the tiers. Like the 1 min recasts and 20 second recasts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only ones that do more dmg are the lifetaps and ancients where you have heals or something else, yes those do more dmg because they do dmg period...but heal far less than the heal obviously(with the exception of AE lifetap hitting many targets)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The major difference between Paly and SK dps is INT. Most Paly i know run around with about 100 INT. where as I would be embarassed as an SK to have that. Most groups I am at 400-500 INT.  Almost all  the crusader spells get nearly 50% more dmg going from 100 INT to 500 INT</DIV>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> morningmists wrote:<BR> <DIV>"The base damage of the paladin's biggest nuke is about 1/5th that of an SK"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is absolustely untrue, there is barely any difference at all. Myself 70k and guildy 70 paly have compared plenty of times. There is almost no difference at all in the lines that run the same thru the tiers. Like the 1 min recasts and 20 second recasts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only ones that do more dmg are the lifetaps and ancients where you have heals or something else, yes those do more dmg because they do dmg period...but heal far less than the heal obviously(with the exception of AE lifetap hitting many targets)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The major difference between Paly and SK dps is INT. Most Paly i know run around with about 100 INT. where as I would be embarassed as an SK to have that. Most groups I am at 400-500 INT.  Almost all  the crusader spells get nearly 50% more dmg going from 100 INT to 500 INT</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are right, I am wrong....the base damage of the paladins biggest nuke is 1/4th that of an SK's....I am terribly sorry. As an SK don't patronize me and tell me what we have as a class for our biggest nukes.</P> <P>Pestilent Touch Master I with 387 INT (self buffed) does a BASE 3848 - 6414 disease damage .... This is an SK's Biggest Nuke</P> <P>Refusal of Conviction Master I with 387 INT (self buffed) does a BASE 1074 - 1791 damage .... This is the Paladins Biggest Nuke</P> <P>Period as a class I could unload ALL of my spells and STILL not do that much damage....I'll highlight a few though since this SK doesn't know how to compare DPS crap.</P> <P>1) Unending misery is the Paladin's version of Relentless Conviction</P> <P>Unending misery Master I with 387 INT (self buffed) does a BASE 237 damage X7 per mob (intially and every 4 seconds for 24 seconds) for 1659 total damage per mob</P> <P>Relentless Conviction Master I with 387 INT (self buffed) does a BASE 519-865 damage....period only 1/4th to 1/2th the damage a paladin can do at the same power cost</P> <P>2) Death Circle is the Paladin's version of Holy Circle</P> <P>Death Circle Master I with 387 INT (self buffed) does a BASE 948 - 1137 damage (with dot damage factored in total)</P> <P>Holy Circle Master I with 387 INT (self buffed) does a BASE 426- 710 damage ...again roughly HALF the damage of a paladin's spells</P> <P>I could go ON and ON about the damage difference between a paladin and SK....bottom line is don't even TRY to say that the damage a paladin and SK can do are about equal cause its not even REMOTELY accurate. Thats like saying the berserker and guardian classes really do the same amount of damage...they don't for obvious reasons like the paladin/SK issue.</P> <P>You tried to say that you spells only do more damage when ours do heals....this is true...BUT HALF of a paladin's ATTACKS ARE HEALS! </P> <P>Shadowknights have a ton of things going for them over a paladin in regards to DPS. They have bigger nukes, much better AOE damage (which is a lot harder to control if you need to mez mobs since they are all DOT related), and their spells are DISEASE based which SOE still doesn't give most mobs high disease resistances. SOE loves to make mobs that are divine, elemental, and magic resistant...just ask any warlock. Its been a grip on the forums forever...personally a lack of creativity I feel personally.</P> <P>I am not saying that paladins can't DPS, but they simply CAN'T dps as well as an SK does unless POSSIBLY they are fighting undead...and thats over a long term period. Paladins are DESIGNED to be defensive in nature...so SOE gave them some of the best AGGRO grabbers in the game...SK's were offensive and need to rely more on DPS for aggro control...hence the more DAMAGE they do. Its pretty simple really.</P>

[Nicholai24]

<div></div><div></div>Wait, did you just try to compare a 15 minute reload ability that can range from 2,000 to 6,000 damage, to a spell which reloads within a minute?Are you on something? Pestilent Touch is our answer to Lay on Hands, kiddo. Try comparing Refusal of Conviction to Abominable Wrath. Their damage values are basically the same. Before you go off on some fourteen page tangent on how you know what you're talking about.. you know.. make sure you do, I guess? <span>:smileyindifferent:I'm baffled, here. And you kind of added a bigger timer to all of our AE DoTs, so those're skewed as well.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Nicholai24 on <span class="date_text">10-18-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:34 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Nicholai24 on <span class=date_text>10-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:35 AM</span>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>he might have gotten a couple wrong but the base damage of a sk spells are greater than a paladin.. in pvp the shadowknight is way ahead of the paladin in dps, as a sk is aimed mostly at damage, and the sks heals are based off an attack that drains life and add's to the sk, very advantageous in pvp..</DIV>

[holypaladin28]

they might have more dps but i soloed a lvl 60 SK last night he got owned nothing like 5800 in diseise resists to make a fight fun

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR> <BR> Wait, did you just try to compare a 15 minute reload ability that can range from 2,000 to 6,000 damage, to a spell which reloads within a minute?<BR><BR>Are you on something? Pestilent Touch is our answer to Lay on Hands, kiddo. Try comparing Refusal of Conviction to Abominable Wrath. Their damage values are basically the same. Before you go off on some fourteen page tangent on how you know what you're talking about.. you know.. make sure you do, I guess? <SPAN>:smileyindifferent:<BR><BR>I'm baffled, here. And you kind of added a bigger timer to all of our AE DoTs, so those're skewed as well.<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Nicholai24 on <SPAN class=date_text>10-18-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:34 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Nicholai24 on <SPAN class=date_text>10-18-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:35 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I know Pestilent touch is the SK's version of Lay of hands, I am not a tool. The bottom line is THAT is the SK's biggest nuke...period...Refusal of Conviction IS the paladins biggest nuke...period...get a gripe.</P> <P>In regards to other spells, Most of the SK spells are geared to PURE damage...those that have an effect (like abominable wrath) are DESIGNED to do less damage then say the paladin's refusal of conviction. Most of the paladin's skills and spells are focused on either total healage or heals to themselves when they attack. THEREFORE their spells overall do LESS damage then an SK...its HOW the classes are designed....don't blame me blame sony and get YOUR facts straight before you say the SK's biggest nuke isn't 4X greater then the pallies one....cause it is.</P> <P>I never said dueling that SK's are better then pallies. I have owned every SK I ever fought against in a duel. Its all in how you play your class. But if you are talking about being able to KILL a mob quickly...especially a named...the higher DPS that Pestilent touch gives far outweighs the usefulness of the paladins Lay of hands. This topic wasn't on the duelabilty of an SK versus paladin but the differences in soloing with an SK verse a paladin. In that regard an SK can solo much better then a paladin due to their higher DPS, greater mana pools (they drain mana from mobs), and damage shields versus a paladin's RAW healing ability. Like I stated earlier...I could unload ALL of my spells and still only come close to the damage that Pestilent touch does right off the bat....Get real</P>

[Nicholai24]

<div></div>Nations don't win every war they wage with nukes. Shadowknights don't win every fight they engage in with PTouch. If it's not a spell which significantly increases extended DPS, merely the DPS on a single, reasonably short encounter, don't try to make it into the pivotal argument of whatever vague point you're trying to make. What's your complaint? Shadowknights do more damage? Yeah, that <i>is </i>the class design.. but overall, a one-use 5kish nuke every fifteen minutes isn't going to make life as a soloer that much easier, pal.This conversation is boring. I declare victory. I'm going home.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Nicholai24 on <span class=date_text>10-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR> Nations don't win every war they wage with nukes. Shadowknights don't win every fight they engage in with PTouch. If it's not a spell which significantly increases extended DPS, merely the DPS on a single, reasonably short encounter, don't try to make it into the pivotal argument of whatever vague point you're trying to make. What's your complaint? Shadowknights do more damage? Yeah, that <I>is </I>the class design.. but overall, a one-use 5kish nuke every fifteen minutes isn't going to make life as a soloer that much easier, pal.<BR><BR>This conversation is boring. I declare victory. I'm going home.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Nicholai24 on <SPAN class=date_text>10-18-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:05 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>A paladin fighting solo against a named that is hard needs to fight a defensive war to win...one thats very difficult to play and succeed at. The main tool we have are wards for keeping us alive and they have a 3 second casting time...easy for them to fizzel or get interupted. If we need to heal ourselves, our heals (besides Lay) have a 3 second cast timer as well...again very easy to get interupted by named...they also use up a huge chunk of power. Thats why its hard for priest classes to solo named due to the interupt factor...the same issue paladins face.</P> <P>Winning a battle against a named isn't about an extended DPS fight, if the fight takes more then 2 minutes you'll loose...so if you have more damage you can do UPFRONT you are more often able to win...talk to any brawler or zerker. Therefore...nukeage becomes critcal.</P> <P>I am not complaining about the limitations of the paladin class, I understand them and embrace them. BUT, I know having several other classes as well why its much easier to solo with a DPS class then a tank class. If you don't understand that concept you shouldn't be calling yourself a real player of the game and even BOTHER posting on a forum thats not about YOUR class.</P><p>Message Edited by Fatuus on <span class=date_text>10-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:40 PM</span>

[holypaladin28]

pallys are geared for group play plain and simple can we solo hell yah but we shine in group end of story case closed.<p>Message Edited by holypaladin2819 on <span class=date_text>10-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:44 PM</span>

[morningmists]

<P>Wow, claim you're not a tool and you're the one saying we can use harm touch line in a tough fight, but LoH is totally irrelevant lol</P> <P>the simple fact is that the spell damage of your 1 minute nuke is HIGHER than it is for SKs one minute nuke. I know because I'm looking at examines of refusal of conviction and abominable wrath adept 1s logged into game right now. Exact same power cost.</P> <P>chastising strike is also slightly more damage than pariah's brand, costs 6 more power though</P> <P>but the point is with few exceptions the generally trend is that SKs do more damage....it is INTENTIONAL</P>

[Nicholai24]

Anything an SK can solo, a paladin can solo. HT and LoH will not win you the fight, unless it was something you really, really shouldn't have been up against to begin with. And at 70, with mastered HT and high intel, the Touch will do around 20% of a named's HP, if you're lucky.If you could do 80% without HT ( and you'd have to to win ), you wouldn't need HT to finish it off. I can guarantee that.<div></div>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nicholai24 wrote:<BR>Anything an SK can solo, a paladin can solo. HT and LoH will not win you the fight, unless it was something you really, really shouldn't have been up against to begin with. And at 70, with mastered HT and high intel, the Touch will do around 20% of a named's HP, if you're lucky.<BR><BR>If you could do 80% without HT ( and you'd have to to win ), you wouldn't need HT to finish it off. I can guarantee that.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If I was required to do 6k damage melee wise it would take me about 25 to 30 seconds of pure melee fighting to do that damage. I never said that Lay of hands was useless, but one of the things paladins DON'T have that SK's are better at is pure melee damage since the SK's procs on melee are more useful damage wise in this regard. Our melee procs only help really against undead when they go off. In a tough, hard fight an SK can simply put out a TON more DPS in a very short time period then a paladin can. Against mobs that hit hard this is very important.

[Lamprey_02]

<DIV>Paladins are way better healers than templars. Seriously. Compare their biggest heal (LoH) to the biggest templar heal if you don't believe me. Faatus will back me up on this.</DIV>

[Fatuus]

<DIV>A comparison between paladins and templars aren't even fair.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First, templars have FASTER casting times on their heals and a lower recast time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, templars benefit from increased heal amounts with a higher Wisdom amount....paladins get no such luxury</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third, templars have a ton more heals then paladins do with some of their emergency heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line Templars > Paladins regarding healing...more acurately</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any healer > Paladins > Shadowknights > Brawlers > Dirges Healing order kinda ranks about that way FOR A REASON</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A good templar will outheal any paladin on an almost 2 to 1 margin. The only reason I can "look" good on some heal parses is if I do full rezes on people when they die since a rez heals the full amount of their health (7k is a lot healed if you rezed a tank every min).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[morningmists]

<P>but LoH is obviously much larger than the biggest templary heal, so paladins simply MUST be better healers!</P> <P>Oh SKs do more proc dmg? BZZT wrong, The base damages on the single and group proc buff spells are the EXACT same for both of them. Ours lifetaps about half the dmg it does, while yours does double to undead. Looked at the proc buffs side by side in game when I looked at the 1 min nukes</P> <P>I told you the difference is mainly INT and lifetaps in place of heals, of course the heals do twice as much healing and refresh 4 times faster. </P> <P>There is a very very small difference in DPS if you put a paly and sk with equal gear and AAs, and a good bit of that is if the SK pet is going(around 50dps for m1 pet if kept up and not dead due to AE)</P> <P> </P>

[Kevro]

Its a fact Sks do alittle more damage than pallys...but nethier class does great DPS in the first place but where Sks have DPS pallys have heals so it still balances out no matter what my opinion is Heals>DPS<div></div>

[Lamprey_02]

<P>Thank you, morningmists, for getting my point.</P> <P>Faatus - comparing harm touch to the biggest paladin nuke makes as much sense as comparing LoH to the biggest templar heal. LoH is a situational ability that you can't use repeatedly as part of your healing routine; harm touch is a situational ability that you can't use repeatedly as part of your dps routine.</P>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lamprey_02 wrote:<BR> <P>Thank you, morningmists, for getting my point.</P> <P>Faatus - comparing harm touch to the biggest paladin nuke makes as much sense as comparing LoH to the biggest templar heal. LoH is a situational ability that you can't use repeatedly as part of your healing routine; harm touch is a situational ability that you can't use repeatedly as part of your dps routine.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This post wasn't about long term sustained DPS. This post was about DPS short term for 1 mob. You must factor in every ability when deciding on how to kill 1 mob. Bottom line is against mobs SK's have getter burst DPS and can DPS a single mob down much faster then a paladin in ideal circumstances. Thats the point I was getting at overall. SK's (even by your post) do more DPS overall with their abilities. You have much better encounter based AOES and multimob spells then paladins do. This is fact and done BY design. I am not stating that there is a huge difference between paladins and SK's when raiding in long term DPS parses...thats not what this post was originally about.