Raid Asset

[Rr]

<DIV> <DIV>(Note: I posted this in the SK forum as well. I am cross-posting here as I am curious if any of you knew of any weaknesses that I do not remember from playing a paladin, or new weakness that the SK trumps you in here in T7.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm trying to figure out what Shadowknight's provide to a raid as an asset over a Paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having played a Paladin to lvl 58 or so, and betrayed becuse there were just WAY too many in my guild, I understand both classes better than some. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest thing that crusaders bring to a raid is the armament line, SK's and Paly's both have this. Paly's have direct heals, a ward, a heal, a group heal, and two hot heals (one for self, one for anyone). SK's have a reactive heal/dmg shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both classes have similar DPS, paly's probably have the short end slightly on this. Both have group buffs, palys have the edge on this one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, from a pure raiding standpoint, if we have a paladin, why bother with an SK, unless there is an empty spot. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand some of you out there are l33t d00ds who can push 1k-1.3k dps. You're not the norm. So, for the normal SK, what would entice a raid to take us unless there was no other crusader available.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks.</DIV> <P></P></DIV>

[Fatuus]

<DIV>What Sk's bring to the table is some better DPS then what a pally brings...but its also a different kind of DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SK's also have a few nice debuffs which would be helpful for STA and STR debuffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SK's DPS comes from some direct damage, but mainly dots...especially AOE dots. These dots are a double edged sword and can often kill a raid encounter if you need to mez multiple targets (Lyceum for example).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The mit buff paladins and SK's do are nice, but those buffs are best reserved for the offtank group and not the MT group since what a crusader can bring to the MT group pales in comparison to what other classes can do. Also keep in mind that the buff DECREASES your mit too, which makes you more easily damaged by Epic melee aoes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What the poster of this post is overlooking is the paladins insane ability to draw aggro FROM other players to themselves. The best use of a paladin is often in a caster heavy group. About 1/8th of the time during a raid, the paladin is able to drawl 32% of the players hate gain to themselves. If you averaged it out, granted its only a 4% hate transfer during the raid BUT if the players time their big nukes for this time period (ie 2 wizards cast fusion and 2 warlocks do a crit damage appocalypse) it draws the biggest bang for the buck. The paladin can also do this right off the bat...meaning the wizards would have enough time to do fusion AND Icenova...and the warlocks would be able to do appoc and rift. Against 5 mobs thats easily 270k damage done in 15 seconds (Each wizard for about 60k, and warlocks for about 75k each). Enough to take out all the heroics making it quick work on the epics since a good chunk of their HP would be knocked out. This does not include the amends ability put on DPSers which draws a ton of hate gain to the paladin (this is most noticable in total ranged fights).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With better self heals and wards...a paladin will last longer against an epic then a SK will...equally geared out. I often offtank adds with no healers in labs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly we also make a great rezzer for downed peeps in AOE range since our rezes give full health on rez.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fatuus on <span class=date_text>08-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:17 AM</span>

[Anariale]

<P>SK's bring debuffs & DPS.<BR>Paladins bring heals that, quite simply, are not needed.</P> <P>W</P>

[Rr]

<P>Wow Faatus, way to do a drive by on the point of the question and instead explain to me what role paladins fill in raids. </P> <P> </P> <P>The SK's debuffs are not that many, we have a CA that reduces WIS, a group disease debuff, a second group disease buff tied into our group taunt, and a debuff that lowers the mobs str, and increases ours. That's all I can think of at the moment that will actually affect epics, or not get negated in 1.2 seconds of damage dealing.</P> <P>I understand about amends, and it's ability to allow a person to better unload on the mob, sigil of heroism is good for this as well, and how this helps the paly pick up hate more quickly if the MT dies, or loses hate, which the MT shouldn't if you have a half decent MT set up.</P> <P>The self heals and wards are nice, but against epics, they're a drop in the bucket just as the SK lifetaps are.</P> <P>If you re-read what I wrote originally, I wanted to know if there were any advantages/utility that SK's had over Paladins that would make them a desireable raid choice.</P> <P>Thanks for your uberness though.</P>

[Cottonba]

<P>I like paladin's 100% rez they have, but I can only see having 1 paladin on a raid for mitigation buff, any more then that is dead weight and a wasted slot to the raid IMO.</P> <P> </P> <P>Cottonball - 70 Bruiser - Hero</P> <P>Oasis Server</P>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rrin wrote:<BR> <P>Wow Faatus, way to do a drive by on the point of the question and instead explain to me what role paladins fill in raids. </P> <P> </P> <P>The SK's debuffs are not that many, we have a CA that reduces WIS, a group disease debuff, a second group disease buff tied into our group taunt, and a debuff that lowers the mobs str, and increases ours. That's all I can think of at the moment that will actually affect epics, or not get negated in 1.2 seconds of damage dealing.</P> <P>I understand about amends, and it's ability to allow a person to better unload on the mob, sigil of heroism is good for this as well, and how this helps the paly pick up hate more quickly if the MT dies, or loses hate, which the MT shouldn't if you have a half decent MT set up.</P> <P>The self heals and wards are nice, but against epics, they're a drop in the bucket just as the SK lifetaps are.</P> <P>If you re-read what I wrote originally, I wanted to know if there were any advantages/utility that SK's had over Paladins that would make them a desireable raid choice.</P> <P>Thanks for your uberness though.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Didn't drive by the point, just stated what sk's can do in raids then what pallies can do in raids. SK's debuffs become pointless if you have a defiler/mystic, str debuff poisons, and dirges in raid (let alone brigands). But the SK's debuffs do last a long time. Paladins really have no debuffs.</P> <P>And in regards to epics, lol I can last a good chunck of time against trash epics (not named, but even then its more then 1 second...I never listed all our heals).</P> <P>Lastly my suggestion of using sigil to take aggro from MT is not the point as it was to take aggro continuously from a heavy DPS group. A good MT would not need to worry about losing aggro to me on their target since a guardian has a ton of skills (reinforcement, rescue, and the hate gain of hopefully a dirge and coercer) to get aggro back quickly. Taking this aggro allows more DPS then a SK can hope to bring to the game. We routinely DPS parse around 13k when in such a configuration.</P><p>Message Edited by Fatuus on <span class=date_text>08-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 AM</span>

[Majorminor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rrin wrote:<BR> <P>If you re-read what I wrote originally, I wanted to know if there were any advantages/utility that SK's had over Paladins that would make them a desireable raid choice.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You asked, what advantages/utility was had one over the other, he answered you /shrug.

[Crib92]

<DIV>Personally I'm not a big fan of Amending folks who can't manage their dps.  All that does is get me dead rather then them.  And open the raid to a frontal.  A bit off topic but I don't consider this a plus.  But, everyone has their tried and true methods.</DIV>

[Mantell]

<P>In another thread I said that Paladins are versatile which gives them a few different roles they can play in a raid. One of those is emergency healer, and if you have an SK instead that role is really not available to them. Otherwise they can OT and DPS.</P> <P>So it depends on if you need the heals or not. Assuming you have an SK and a Paladin same level both geared out about the same then if you are overhealered then an SK has somewhat better DPS and may be a better raid choice. If you are underhealered then take the Paladin.</P> <P> </P>

[Boethius_Permafrost]

Crib - amend people who CAN manage their agro, so they can do more damage.

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boethius_Permafrost wrote:<BR>Crib - amend people who CAN manage their agro, so they can do more damage.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not necessary.  A Coercer + Troub means that your big aggro people are already going pretty much full bore.  The DPS added by having Amends on one target is hardly worth the 500+ DPS loss of taking a Paladin over a DPS class.

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boethius_Permafrost wrote:<BR>Crib - amend people who CAN manage their agro, so they can do more damage.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not necessary.  A Coercer + Troub means that your big aggro people are already going pretty much full bore.  The DPS added by having Amends on one target is hardly worth the 500+ DPS loss of taking a Paladin over a DPS class.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know, you are absolutely right...why have a paladin take aggro away from classes that can DPS at 5 to 6 k a second the first 15 seconds of a fight....yea...thats just worthless....I am sure the hate gain debuff that a troub and a coercer provides is more then enough to counter this small dps amount.</P> <P>NOOOB!</P>

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Boethius_Permafrost wrote:<BR>Crib - amend people who CAN manage their agro, so they can do more damage.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not necessary.  A Coercer + Troub means that your big aggro people are already going pretty much full bore.  The DPS added by having Amends on one target is hardly worth the 500+ DPS loss of taking a Paladin over a DPS class.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know, you are absolutely right...why have a paladin take aggro away from classes that can DPS at 5 to 6 k a second the first 15 seconds of a fight....yea...thats just worthless....I am sure the hate gain debuff that a troub and a coercer provides is more then enough to counter this small dps amount.</P> <P>NOOOB!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Best post, ever</P> <P>W</P>

[Crib92]

<P>LOL.  So.... 5 to 6K dps plus another 800 to 1000 from the Pally = Dead Pally, then dead dps.  (First 15 seconds)</P> <P>So, if I get this right, lets kill two for the price of one. </P> <P>If you really think that a hate transfer is the right way to go for your raid then more power to you.  I can say this, I will guarantee that I will pull aggro off any tank with this set up.  Which I can't see as a good idea.  Everyone has to experiment and develop a strat that works for them.  Personally I expect compensation from anyone who wants amends.</P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crib92 wrote:<BR> <P>LOL.  So.... 5 to 6K dps plus another 800 to 1000 from the Pally = Dead Pally, then dead dps.  (First 15 seconds)</P> <P>So, if I get this right, lets kill two for the price of one. </P> <P>If you really think that a hate transfer is the right way to go for your raid then more power to you.  I can say this, I will guarantee that I will pull aggro off any tank with this set up.  Which I can't see as a good idea.  Everyone has to experiment and develop a strat that works for them.  Personally I expect compensation from anyone who wants amends.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Heheh i can say in personal experience that in a raid situation where i had 4 wizards, a fury, and a necromancer, the last thing i touched was sigil of heriosm.  When in DPS groups in a raid, unless i intend to pull the agro because the mt is dead i leave sigil alone in heavy dps groups.  I will fire it off when in more moderate dps especially in healer heavy group, but the total agro you get from DPS heavy is a quick ticket to the revive screen,  Plus i keep it on the hotbar when i have a scout class in the group, being as they still have not fixed the bugs with scout class hate transfers/reductions.   Per individual basis, coercer, guardian are the best with their hate reduction buffs, troubadour with the group non fighter hate reduction buff, and if you want reduced effectiveness of the paladin, toss amends on the heaviest hitter.  The only time the pally should be amends to the heaviest is if the raid has designated the paladin as the mt, otherwise it can be ping pong on agro.  I love Amends and Sigil but you have to be smart on how it is applied or you can have bad consequences....<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Crib92]

As Dennis Hopper once said, "Bad things man...bad things"

[Boli32]

Sigil is good.. but the trick with a pally agro is to try and stay second in the hate listings... not first. Sigil if used correctly can keep you up there... you'll want the hate to fire to you if you are backup tank. I'm thinking it may be prudent to use EITHER sigil OR Amends. Depending on your role within the raid. Sigil more for the times you are backup tank and you hit it every time its up... or Amends when you are just another mindless sword hacking person. Use both and you will draw agro. use either one or the other and you have a viable secondary tank or agro sink.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

I tend to throw Amends on the healer in my group, and auto attack til what I am watching on TV is done....don't forget to put yourself on Auto Follow too...<div></div>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crib92 wrote:<BR> <P>LOL.  So.... 5 to 6K dps plus another 800 to 1000 from the Pally = Dead Pally, then dead dps.  (First 15 seconds)</P> <P>So, if I get this right, lets kill two for the price of one. </P> <P>If you really think that a hate transfer is the right way to go for your raid then more power to you.  I can say this, I will guarantee that I will pull aggro off any tank with this set up.  Which I can't see as a good idea.  Everyone has to experiment and develop a strat that works for them.  Personally I expect compensation from anyone who wants amends.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is the point behind this tactic...I'll type it out for all to see...then maybe they will understand that its not something that will kill the paladin but actually give more hate to the MT.</P> <P>1) MT (generally guardian) pulls the mobs. OT and MT are on the 2 initial epic mobs.</P> <P>2) Paladin (prewarded both by a mystic and self with reactive) calls out sigil to raid</P> <P>3) DPSers in paladin's group unload their huge dps spells because they already did their debuffs.</P> <P>4) MT OT use reinforcement on the Epic mobs once sigil is cast...for those that don't know that knocks a guardian 1 up in the hate list on each succesful attack (and lasts 15 seconds). I do believe its recast is 2 minutes. Since the paladin is right by the MT and OT...neither lose their aggro on their epic counterparts. You could even have the MT toggle among the adds to constantly keep aggro on himself too.</P> <P>5) Paladin and healer in pallies group (either a fury or cleric) stay on trash mobs and keep themselves up. The trash mobs are all generally dead (any heroic adds) within the first 15 seconds. The MT and OT never lose aggro from mobs they are fighting. The hate gain the MT and OT have on their targets is very solid since the heavy hitting DPS already unloaded their biggest nukes. Note: this technic also allows other heavy hitting DPS to nuke hard during this time period too.</P> <P>Its not hard to keep yourself up in situations like this. I can be at 5500 mit 51% avoidance self buffed and 6200 mit with a cleric in situations like this, so mitigation and avoidance isn't an issue. The big thing is killing things fast...and this method allows that. If you coordinate sigil with the MT using reinforcement...it only gives MORE hate to the MT that way...and keeps the pally in the #2 hate gain spot.</P> <P>Sigil is a very powerful tool for helping your tank keep aggro on raids...and a way to allow your DPSers to unload more then they would have been able to otherwise. Its worth the 400 DPS I sacrifice to fight in a defensive stance. If used properly and effectively...its an awesome tool for your raid to use. </P><p>Message Edited by Fatuus on <span class=date_text>09-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:02 PM</span>