Paladin's don't suck

[MickM]

<DIV>I'm tired of coming to these boards and half the threads being "My paladin is weak thus all paladins must be weak too. Please make us strong like warriors." Yes, warriors have the reputation of being better tanks, but I think it's cause of all you Paladin's who whine and complain just aren't good at your class and project your envy for the warriors to others.  Instead of always blaming someone for you inability to tank and wasting time posting on the forums, reroll and play something else. There are plenty of Paladins out there who have made it just fine as a tank in groups and in raids. It's just the majority haven't found out how.</DIV>

[Seomon]

Pally's can tank pretty much anything if they want (and have the same gear that said *insert uber class here* has), and it can and will work out fine with the right group. A Guardian (or any other plate tank, but pretty much a Guardian) might be *better*, but it can still be done with a Paladin. The main issue lies in people, not in the class itself. People want to optimize situations for the least chance of failure, and we are not the least chance of failure in the MT role. We are still good, and can do the job, though. DPS is the only thing I'll agree that we're lacking in.

[Nevar]

<DIV>Ok I hate to say this, but this is whats going to happen my friends. EOF AAs im sure will give us some offensive abilities much greater then we have now. With as much crying as the pally community does about dps it will be a vast improvment from what we have.</DIV> <DIV>Then they will nerf us. SOE is king of nerfs and they will make us worse then we are now. So do you want that dps increase that badly now? Cause I can promise you this will happen. </DIV>

[Canel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Seomon wrote:<BR>Pally's can tank pretty much anything if they want (and have the same gear that said *insert uber class here* has), and it can and will work out fine with the right group. A Guardian (or any other plate tank, but pretty much a Guardian) might be *better*, but it can still be done with a Paladin. The main issue lies in people, not in the class itself. People want to optimize situations for the least chance of failure, and we are not the least chance of failure in the MT role. We are still good, and can do the job, though. DPS is the only thing I'll agree that we're lacking in.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well-I agree with alot of this statement-except the whole part of the DPS lacking. I'll take that un-raid geared Pallys won't be considered DPS-but even then-I a Pally knows how to play the class-damnit we can beat wizzies in the long run. </P> <P>But like stated-Pallys are really good unless you don't know how to play the class...unfortunatly Pallys are usually the class that all the really unuber noobs come to becasue of the whole "a tank and healer in 1! deal"--BLAH!!!! IT'S THOSE NOOBS THAT GIVE US PALLYS A BAD NAME!!!! There are several noob pallys on my server atm (I will keep them namless) that say they cant even beat a lv 1 mob--that just is embaressing to them-but to the whole [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] class. Well trained Pallys can-and are-able to solo yellow mobs-and if wards/heals at adept 1-can tank solo green heroics NP. But it's just [Removed for Content] annoying when so many [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] people label us as a bad tank class and say "well-we need a warrior/brawler ect.-not a crusader"--which is TOTAL BULL!!!!</P> <P> But those Pallys that have been trained-have read all the Pally forums on how to play the class ect.-how to hold aggro-how to deal in the game-THOSE ARE THE PALADINS <U><STRONG>EVERYONE</STRONG></U> should know on each server-because those are the paladins that know how to play-keep aggro-and know how to group and play decently-uber. </P> <P>But a large problem with the noob pallys is that they just dont look at the pally forums. I'll admit I never looked at the forums till in my 40s or so. Doesn't mean that I wasn't a good tank (though reading the forums was a boost)-just meant I had to use my head. Alot of these noob pallys are either kids who dont want to use their head to figure out strats- or people who want a fast-soloing xp class (stratagy is key for a soloing pally-and fast xping is grouping-not soloing. You want soloing xp-see the brawler class section.) These Noobs are never really grouping people-which is exactly what the Paladin is designed for-GROUPING.. </P> <P>Now-I guess I should say pallys arn't totally hopless when soloing--but like i said-the people who want to solo fast on a paladin just DONT USE THEIR HEADS!!! Soloing for a paladin is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] easy. Just stay in your Knight's Stance line (using the 1st of the defence stances here in case a good little noob actually looks at this thread) and constantly ward/heal yourself-and in the middle-use faithful swing ect. to dmg your opponent. Easy as that (there are many other things to put in there-but I'm not gonna post them in this thread).</P> <P>Any way- Basically--PALLYS ARN'T WEAK--AND THOSE PALLYS WHO SAY THAT THE CLASS IS WEAK===<STRONG><EM><U>QUITERS</U></EM></STRONG> :smileymad:</P>

[Artorius_]

<P> I dont think pally is useless and i know very well the class, but we have no utily in raid scenarios. As many mates wrote here, we are not saying paladin cant tank that mob or that. Lets see:</P> <P> As MT in raid:</P> <P>   A guardian have more mitigation by far, with AAs and their temporary buffs, a bit more avoidance and more Hps. We have wards and heals to compensate that, but wait... a Raid named will interrupt us a lot the casting of those "compensations". Can we tank? Sure but worse than a Guardian by far. the only option to be similar is have better equipment than the Guardian to compensate that.... Resist as some of you posted insome post is a nosense , with t7 all tanks can raise up to cap easily eith equipment and group configuration. </P> <P> Question : If you have a Guardian in raid ¿Why are you going to put a pally as MT?</P> <P>As Utility in Mt group:</P> <P> If you have a weak MT in Mit, is posible you are needed for Aegis, but wait a Tank with some equipment fo t7 can cap the mit easy, and then why are you needed? for avoidance buff? i think dirge and coercers for example fits those slots better for agro , stoneskin, pow regen and other buffs better.</P> <P>For dps: no coment</P> <P>For utility buffs in dps: No coment yull have classes better by far</P> <P>Heal: No coment, you can have a true healer better.</P> <P>Battle rezz. This was a posibility (rezz bots as some month ago), now recast 1 min... the utility is ok but i dont see that for waste a raid slot, unless you dont have enought roster to fill 24 slots... lol.</P> <P>And i am a pally and play my class very well thinks, all that know me ask me to tank in groups, i have tanked some raid mobs in t6 and t7 and not only the easy ones, but is what i think. If we have classes that fill our posibles roles better than us.... and i dont say we cant tank or another things.. why i need to put the paladin to waste a slot in raid? i always use my shaman in the raid (yes i have too a 70 shaman) and i want my pally is the main char in the guild, but im afraid soon ill have to change that...</P>

[Feydakeen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nevarer wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok I hate to say this, but this is whats going to happen my friends. EOF AAs im sure will give us some offensive abilities much greater then we have now. With as much crying as the pally community does about dps it will be a vast improvment from what we have.</DIV> <DIV>Then they will nerf us. SOE is king of nerfs and they will make us worse then we are now. So do you want that dps increase that badly now? Cause I can promise you this will happen. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>OUCH... You really think that is gonna happen?</P> <P>Because if they nerf us back and we get even less DPS then we do now, it would just be plain stupid <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[ChopStix]

<P>mickman,</P> <P> </P> <P>i've played my paladin since vox went live in feb. 06,  so yes i'm kind of new. I also was the mt for our guild's upper lvl characters.... at first we had a gaurdian as the mt, and i was back-up and  when our guild started we had no healers, and i was it... i backed up the gaurdian and kept everyone alive up until our mid 50's, past that point i out leveled the gaurdian and the damage taken in by our group was to much for the paladins heals, and i've always had master's of all my heals.... into the 60's the damage recieved from mobs, raids, and freeporters on the pvp server far exceeds the paladins ability to heal, and again i have all masters t7 heals and wards.. i can tank HoF, blackscale, the den, just about any zone.. i'm not equipped with the best gear my mit is at 3975 at the moment. i can tank some raid mobs, but i choose not to because a beserker better fits the bill, with me backing him... and at this point is where i found the roll of a paladin still seems lacking, as the heals cannot keep up with the damage.. where a paladin is best suited is probably in a group with a couple of casters and healers for emegency aggro needed to keep the casters alive and pull aggro off of them if needed, but from my experience a paladin doesnt fit in the main raid group, other roles are played far better in a raid group set-up...</P> <P> </P> <P>in a single group set-up is where the pally fits in best, backing the mt, with the ward, and minor heals, and a life saver celestial touch here and there.... and the dps is so lacking in a paladin that i often find myself at range casting and warding and letting a beserker do the major part of the dps and agg control, sometimes he'll want me to pull aggro so he doesnt take some damage, and then he'll pull it back after a short break and a full heal up..  just some things i've learnt through 70 lvl's...</P> <P> </P> <P>and after that i rolled a beserker, ive stated it in other posts on this forum, and i can tell you from experience, i wish i woulda rolled a serker alot sooner than later.... just some points on the beserker vs paladin both considered fighters but by far from the same or even close...  the dps of a beserker is far above the pally, so aggro control is easier.. auto taunt...  attacks on the move with a serker.. more mitigation with a serker..far better aa lines.. basicly the bottom line, i think the beserker is better suited in a raid setup and also the pvp environment because of the burst dps a beserker brings to the group..  to me a paladin is great in a single group, lacking in pvp and lacking alot of dps, in a raid the only thing a paldin brings to a raid is the in combat rez, and the ward.. but thats not alot in my opinion, as others have stated other characters fit in a raid alot better than a paladin..</P> <P>70 paladin 50aa points that i'm disappointed with , 30 ranger  pvp is pretty easy, 16 beserker that i'm lovin..</P> <P> </P>

[Nevar]

<P>whelp im sad to see you think we suck, but Disso has kept me around since formation and we dont keep useless classes guilded. Look at our roster we have no ranger or SK in it. </P> <P>I guess what Meridian said in another thread must be true. Some of us know how to play, some just know how to whine and say we suck.</P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nevarer wrote:<BR> <P>whelp im sad to see you think we suck, but Disso has kept me around since formation and we dont keep useless classes guilded. Look at our roster we have no ranger or SK in it. </P> <P>I guess what Meridian said in another thread must be true. Some of us know how to play, some just know how to whine and say we suck.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree we have quite a few doomsayers on the board saying their paladin is unplayable.  Too me, i have only had a paladin and no alt ever created since i started playing back in December of 04.  In group/solo situations, i am quite comfortable, in a raid situtaion, however, i believe some things need tweaking.  With the post on the Spells and combat abilities section, i replied with a few ideas of my own plus ones other paladins have posted on the board.   I like playing support role as offtank/buffer agro sponge and sometimes try my hand on harder content.  To my view some of the things in the spells post are items that we should not live with, like the power pool bug and the removal of the mit crafted symbols for tier 7.  Other things can be debated on but these seem to be pretty solid reason to be fixed.<BR>

[Canel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OrcSlayer96 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nevarer wrote:<BR> <P>whelp im sad to see you think we suck, but Disso has kept me around since formation and we dont keep useless classes guilded. Look at our roster we have no ranger or SK in it. </P> <P>I guess what Meridian said in another thread must be true. Some of us know how to play, some just know how to whine and say we suck.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree we have quite a few doomsayers on the board saying their paladin is unplayable.  Too me, i have only had a paladin and no alt ever created since i started playing back in December of 04.  In group/solo situations, i am quite comfortable, in a raid situtaion, however, i believe some things need tweaking.  With the post on the Spells and combat abilities section, i replied with a few ideas of my own plus ones other paladins have posted on the board.   I like playing support role as offtank/buffer agro sponge and sometimes try my hand on harder content.  To my view some of the things in the spells post are items that we should not live with, like the power pool bug and the removal of the mit crafted symbols for tier 7.  Other things can be debated on but these seem to be pretty solid reason to be fixed.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I htink that basically hits the point on the head<BR>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>I am in my 50s so maybe I dont get it yet but I dont see the point of people complaining about Paladins sucking. We do ok as a MT can tank anything else that any warrior can just maybe not as easy. We  are the best group tank for pickups. This is just my theory though if you gave Pally more dps more mid and we can already heal rez ward why would anyone ever roll a gaurdian or a berserker ever again be kind of pointless to have those classes at all wouldnt it. Be same deal though if they could rez ward heal why would anyone ever roll a Pally again, its the diff that make you pick a class, and play it other wise why not just say there are only 4 classes in this game Tank scout healer caster, would any of you want to play that.</DIV><p>Message Edited by hawsecav19d on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:06 PM</span>

[MickM]

Firstly, just because you've reached the mitigation cap doesn't mean you've gone as far as you can go in asorbing damage done to you. It only gives the % for a level 70 opponent, not for 70+ heroics or epic mobs. Yes paladins can hold agro jus fine.  No we don't have as much dps as a bezerker but our class is designed. Paladins imo have the best ae aggro in game. What we lack in dps compaired to a bezerker is made up by our Amends skill.... the hate transfer from that ability ensures aggro just as well if not better in some cases then straight dps done to a mob. To me, all you paladins that complain for lack of tanking are looking solely on your class. In raid situations its all how you set up groups, and no the same group setup for a warrior is not always the best setup for a paladin. I don't see why you complain about dps. When you say our dps sucks what kind of numbers are you looking for? On an average raid, I can pull 500-600s easily with around 300int. If i'm really trying to go big its anywhere from 700-1k depending on the encounter. You have to work at it to become better. Complaining over and over looking for a sympathetic shoulder to cry on gets you no where.

[holypaladin28]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff6600 size=7>pally power woot</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600 size=7></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600 size=7>i love my pally he is a bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mofo</FONT></DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Ya, and I guess improvements to this class happen spontaneously? or because the Devs just love us?</P> <P>Nah, I happen to think that its because players feedback. </P> <P>The Paladin class isnt perfect. if It was, no one would complain.  How can they possibly nerf our DPS even worse? hell, we already have the worst DPS of any tank and possibly, one of the worst game wide.</P> <P>Im glad some people think their palys are great. Just remember that not everyone is happy, and what you consider "whining" some people consider frustration. I've been a paly since this game came out. Ive seen every freaking nerf and "upgrade" they have given the class. </P> <P>I raid exclusively, and I will match my raid experience against any Paly out there. Its lame excuse when people blame the player. Yes, quite often it is the player, but any Paly who seriosuly thinks that our class is just fine the way it is, is deluding themselves.</P> <P>The reason why Warriors became so overpowered in T4 and T5 is because no one "whined", or as I prefer to think of it, gave back constructive criticism.</P> <P>Whats funny is that I see many of the posters who say we're fine, complain in other threads about how this or that is overpowered or underpowered..but OMG, dont say the smae thing about class balance..because thats "whining".  :smileyindifferent:</P> <P> </P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MickMan wrote:<BR> Firstly, just because you've reached the mitigation cap doesn't mean you've gone as far as you can go in asorbing damage done to you. It only gives the % for a level 70 opponent, not for 70+ heroics or epic mobs. Yes paladins can hold agro jus fine.  No we don't have as much dps as a bezerker but our class is designed. Paladins imo have the best ae aggro in game. What we lack in dps compaired to a bezerker is made up by our Amends skill.... the hate transfer from that ability ensures aggro just as well if not better in some cases then straight dps done to a mob. To me, all you paladins that complain for lack of tanking are looking solely on your class. In raid situations its all how you set up groups, and no the same group setup for a warrior is not always the best setup for a paladin. I don't see why you complain about dps. When you say our dps sucks what kind of numbers are you looking for? On an average raid, I can pull 500-600s easily with around 300int. If i'm really trying to go big its anywhere from 700-1k depending on the encounter. You have to work at it to become better. Complaining over and over looking for a sympathetic shoulder to cry on gets you no where.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Too my knowledge, the more experienced paladins that are posting on the forums, are more concerned on our core abilities being tweaked than agro control.  Our amends is a powerful tool but it is only as good as the target of the spell, a mage out of power nets you little hate, a monk that is mezzed the same issue.  This is more the exception and and the truely better paladains keep constant watch on how effective their amends target is doing, or have grouped with the same group that they always know exactly who is the best in that instance.  </P> <P>The divide between how effective our skills are for tanking raids becomes more apparant the higher level you go, at level 50 you will find that the divide is not that bad, wait till tier 7 and max level/AA, then compare the classes in similar gear.   Noone is asking to have the mit buffs or combat arts that a warrior has, we just want the core abilities enhanced so we can do the the job better.   Most people who see the warrior double attack AA choice realize that a warriors that go down that path will easily double their dps along with a few other choices.  Show me where you can get that big of a increase in our AA choices if a paladin wants to spec that way.</P> <P>Before AA and KOS, the normal dps parsers comparing non mt warriors and crusaders showed that crusaders had more dps to balance out the warriors more health and mitigation/avoidance.  After that we are now looking at have much lower dps than them, but it is considered "balance".   Just like one of our AA choices was changed from mitigation aa in beta to a health pool increase, i would not be suprised if the warrior one was modified similar, perhaps to give some "utility" to the class...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It is easier to fix a overpowered AA then it is to increase our DPS, but who knows where the devs will go with this.<BR></P>

[Caetrel]

Well said, Steel. It's not that we are a gimpy class.  LU13/ tier 6/ DoF made us much more on par with Warriors.  Gone were the days of royal great flail insane plate dps, and instead we were tanks for the first time.  KoS/ AAs have given warriors more dps and better tanking skills.  Considerably more.  The gap was greatly widened.  Crusader AAs are basically muddy and unfocused.  I don't think as much time was put into them as some other subclass AA lines. We are at our lowest ebb as tanks since LU13.  That trend need not continue.  This game constantly changes, and often certain classes get the short end of the stick for a while.  We are not [Removed for Content], no, but we are holding the short end right now. I hope no changes are made to our dps or aggro they are fine as it stands right now.  It's perfectly fair to me that we do less dps and in turn we can heal.  Sure.  What we need is just a hair more in the tanking department.  Better emergency skills, a little mit like, say, making Pledge a self buff too.  And, btw, if you don't want to read about paladins [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about their class, go to another forum, or stay off the forums.  Funny thing is, most all of us who say "oh the class is fine, we are fine" cannot even get the post done without qualifying that somehow.  LOL <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Caetrel and Steel just made me get all teary eyed :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], but it's nice to see that solidarity.</P>

[MickM]

I'm not saying leave the paladin alone. Yes, there could be changes, but nothing so drastic as the mojority of the posts in this forum. It's when people post more out of envy of a guardian or zerkerwith posts that pally should have dps like a bezerker or  tanking ca's like a guardian. They aren't constructive posts at all. They are just flames of how they want the paladin to be the best tank in game cause they can't play one how they are right now. I've tanked t7 just as well as any warrior in my guild. And yes there is plenty of paladins who tank for their guilds regularly in groups and raids and it in most cases it does boil down to the player themselves.

[Mantell]

<DIV> <DIV>I keep seeing threads about how bad we suck and I usually just ignore it. But I finally have to stick my head up and agree with the OP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we were the top tank class people would complain that all we can do is tank.</DIV> <DIV>If we were the top healer class people would complain that all we can do is heal.</DIV> <DIV>If we were the top DPS class people would complain that we can't tank or heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What we are is <U>versatile</U>.</DIV> <DIV>We can solo very well IMO. Not as fast as some but we're steady.</DIV> <DIV>We can tank very well in a group. Unless someone is trying to take aggro they probably won't.</DIV> <DIV>When we're in a raid we can tank but we're better off in a support role. That's OK because there are too many tanks in most raids anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a raid I'm never the MT. But I'm constantly switching roles between warding the tank, healing the tank, healing other people who took damage from a stray AOE. Between tossing heals I'm firing off CAs and DPSing. Poor unfortunates who die benefit from my rez.</DIV> <DIV>-If we have too many healers I stop healing. I go in offensive stance, strap on my stat-boosting gear and fire away. I sometimes even make the top 10 on the parser.</DIV> <DIV>-If we don't have enough healers I throw on defensive stance and spam my heals and wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best of all... we can switch on the fly! When a healer in the MT group goes down the raid is likely to wipe. But no, the Pallies can immediately start spamming heals to keep the tank up while the healers get rezzed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have three abilities that snatch victory from the jaws of defeat in almost every raid</DIV> <DIV>-Our lay hands line is a godsend when things get ahead of the healers. Can't tell you how many times I've heard "We're losing it... oh wait... he's OK". Makes me feel like I earned my DKP for the night.</DIV> <DIV>-Our combat rez is the best in the game. When someone dies in AE range most rezzes leave them in the red and vulnerable. Ours is full health. I've brought back the MT while the backup tank holds the mob. Not something we like to do but it happens.</DIV> <DIV>-Our mitigation buff makes a huge difference. It's not as flashy but it's always there, always doing its job. If we forget to cast it we know right away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You think it sucks to be a Paladin in a raid? Try being Guardian #3.</DIV></DIV>

[Odinwray Treewalker]

i have to agree i dont like seeing all these "zomg why do paladins suck so hard?" threads. i have been playing the same troll paladin (first on server hehe <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) since september 04 3 days after launch and i have got to say we are in [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good shape right now. we may be lacking some in certain areas but i personally would say i havent noticed due to my play style. as a switcher style player i am gearing my paladin out to actually be a good DPS and backup healer for raids, while still having the ability to hold my own when i want to tank something. im doing something most paladins would never dream of and spreading my APs across the board in certain areas i like to tweak out DPS using methods to fix what i have analysed as the weak point in our DPS, being that once we run out of skills to use we kind of drop off real fast. im getting at least 3 new damage skills from APs and getting tons of crits and some skill tweaks that fit my style. one thing not many people notice is that some of these skills are real easy to use more than one of if you just hotkey some weapons and swap them as you like to use different skills, spreading the use of said skills apart enough to compensate for the 4 second timer to equip new stuff again. i have int 4444 and STA at 3 right now and when my guild is doing labs, say were killing the 3 named doom guys some call the 3 amigos, if i throw consecrate and droag masters rage out, fire my AoEs and all my skills off once, then just cast them some when they come up so i can keep the tank alive, i can sit back and basically do a passive 700+ DPS from a few skills i fired. i crit so often for so much that when im in my favorite group set up i still sit back and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] myself when i do things that most say arent possible. im not positive where im going to take my APs from now on after i get melee crits at ap4 at least, but i know right now i can still strike awe in anyone in the right situation. just a note, i find it particually useful to use castigate in blackscale sep by pulling the room with the first named in it in whole, with consecrate and droag masters rage going when i run in, then watching the effects stack up real fast and firing castigate. today i was lucky enough to have the perfect group, if there is such a thing, and when i fired the castigate every damage tick (15 a target) went crit for 900-1k damage (group layout is paladin dirge zerker conj wiz fury, m1 offensive in devout xego dps armor), droping most of them right off. a lot of our classes power, as seen above, lies in choosing your APs wisely and timing your skills around what is going on around you, while at the same time playing your class with a bit of common sense, a clear head, strategic critical thinking, and skill. once i am at 50 AP, if everything turns out as i hope it will, i will bring a video of some of these events to the forums for you to watch to prove that things like the above are possible. if i had known i was actaully gonna get the equivilant of a fusion bomb out of my castigate i woulda been hovering over screenshot button in advance lol<div></div>

[Xaci]

<DIV>I'm not sure why people have a problem with paladin. The only thing we really need is a bit of a boost to our dps, because, yes, it is weak in comparison to all the other classes. I don't want mage or scout dps, just a bit of a boost, and I'm sure the paladin community would be happy. However, people [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about us not being able to tank as good as a guardian need to, like said in posts above, reroll, perhaps a guardian will suit you, maybe a zerker, who knows..When I rolled a paladin, I wasn't looking for a best there is tank, if so I would of rolled a guard, or a zerker. I was looking for a utility class that can basically be thrown into any position needed to be filled. I.E. back up healer, dps, tank, little bit of everything. I love my paladin, and now that I found the alternate char modules, I love her even more. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone wants a class that will do everything and anything and thats not gonna happen no matter how much you cry, hence why Everquest2 brings you so many choices, if you don't like a class, hit the delete button and move on with  your life, don't cry to everyone else, because you'll only find that no one gives a rats [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Soloing, not a problem. Ofcouse you get the problems with mobs 3+ levels above, but other than that, I haven't run into a problem yet, and I solo with a shield and a 1-hander, screw those 2-hander bushwackers. They are for the birds</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Xacius on <SPAN class=date_text>08-26-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:06 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Xacius on <span class=date_text>08-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:09 AM</span>

[Lairdragna]

Well here is my take on it, given the class disparities you need to be exceptionally good at your class with exceptional gear to tank as effectively as an average guard or zerk.Itoock is the pinnacle, you can't look to him as the standard.  Ninety-five percent of the 70/50 raid Guards and Zerks on the server can not tank as well as Itocck I would hazard to guess.Take two players of similar quality skill, spells and gear, and the Guard and Zerk will out tank the paladin.  Take a more skilled paladin with the same gear and spells as an average guard/zerk, and the more skilled paladin will likely be at a disadvantage.  Take a more skilled paladin with better gear and spells than the average zerk and you probably run into the scenario that you can tank as well.  Put the pally in godly gear like Itoock and watch the Guards and Zerks cry. <span>:smileysurprised:</span><div></div>

[Kenji11]

<div></div>Lair, you do bring up a good point. When someone like Itoock or Phov says "I can tank just as well as any warrior in my guild." it unfortunatly does not hold much water. I play on Befallen, though I was on Faydark before the server merges. On Faydark, the uberest guild is Eternal Chaos. They have done it all. They've killed it all. They are one of the most organized and powerful guilds in the entire game... so ill ignore thier numberous bad points in this post. =). I am in a smaller guild, with less experienced and geared people. We have difficulty killing Uncaged Alzid at this point, cause our raid dps is low. So when we are fighting him, and losing, somebody will start blabbing about how we should use this group setup, and how he is easy, and how we must suck cause EC can take him with 2.5 groups in 2 minutes... Basically comparing 24 up and coming raiders to 16 of the most powerful raiders on the server... it doesnt work. The average paladin probably has instance gear, maybe a piece of xegonite, couple quested items, most if not all A3s, etc. I, am not an average paladin. I am a raiding paladin. I have a few pieces of relic, bunch of quested stuff, couple fabled, 21 masters. And right now I stand at 5084 mit, 49.7% avoidance, and 7,145 hp self buffed. To get to that point I had to grind out my 50 AAs, I had to raid for id say about 6 or 7 months by now, and do the claymore line up to DT. What is my point... Do a simple comparasion. Take a Gaurd, a Zerker, and a Pally, all lvl 70, wiht thier choice of 50 AAs. Put them in thier choice of xegonite armor, zegonite weapon, xegonite shield, acrylia jewelery(thier choice), and all adept III spells/arts. What we have now is something that we can actually use to compare everyone. Same gear, same weapons, warriors would take a bow while paladin would probably take a symbol of sorts, likely the 114 mit one. And now we compare everything. The gaurdian will have more hp than the pally, who will have more hp than the zerker. The gaurdian will have the same mit as the zerker, who will have more mit than the pally, assuming the warriors took the wis line, as almost all warriors who cant hit 5500+ mit on their own have. The gaurdian will have more avoidance than the zerker who will have more avoidance than the pally. The zerker will do more dps than the gaurdian who will do more dps than the pally. But we all know that... With nobody to amend, the pally's hate generation will be much lower than either warrior. Amends is tricky... With a good amendee, we can have considerably more aggro generation than the warriors. In a high dps group, if we cast Sigil of Heroism, our hate generation becomes stupidly high... not that that is a bad thing. But... with A3 amends, I would estimate that overall, about 1/3 of our total hate comes from the amendee. Rough estimate, could vary greatly. If you add a hate buff to the equation, say a coercer with a 49% hate buff, then you would need to cast it on both the paladin and the amendee in order to match the amount of hate a warrior would get from just 1 cast of it. All in all, our aggro control is superior to that of a warrior. I have almost never seen a warrior that I could not get aggro from if I half tried. But it is easier to buff a warrior to have greater hate gain than us, than it is to buff us. So overall, can go either way, leans more in our favor. So now we get to the mit buffs VS heals... The problem with comparing these is that they are different in their one designs. In other words, one is %, and one is numberical. (I will be using A3s for all these values) The warrior group mit buffs adds 619 mit to the warrior for 30 seconds. Followed by the self mit bufff which adds 966. So thats 8.8% mit on the group and 13.8% on the self mit buff. If a warrior were to cast them in succession: group, self, 30 sec down, group, self, 30 sec, etc. Then they would have on average 528 more mit than a paladin. Though add in the symbol which is 114 mit, but it essentiall adds only .9% at lvl 70, so thats basically 6.6% more effective mit a warrior has over a paladin. So counter this, we have heals, and a fair assortment of them. If we were to chain cast our heals for optimum healing, no counting sacrament and CT, we can achieve 269 hp per second. That is 120 with fervent aid, 71 with devotion, and 78 with prayer. Assuming that devotion is completely used up within 17 seconds of it being cast. So 269 hp/second... depending on your gear, that might be enough to self heal against quite a few mobs. Though against a high end heroic mob... its pretty weak, and against a named, its pretty sad. With about 80% mit, Septimus hits me for around 800 dps depending on how much we keep him stunned. So my 269 isnt gonna cut it against his 800. Now the mit buffs, those are simple. You cast it, and you take less damage from melee attacks. If we want to compare the mit buffs to our heals, lets up them both as numbers. Average sustained mit buff is 528. That is about 7.5% vs a lvl 70. So, in order for thier mit buffs to mitigate the same amount of damage that our heals counteract, the mob that a warrior is tanking must be hitting for at least 3586 unmitigated dps. Kinda hard ot understand, so ill put it in a different perspective. If you have about 70% mit vs the mob you are tanking, it's 3586 unmitigated dps will be hitting you for 1075 dps. That never happens in solo play, and very rarely on heroic, but on epics, it is almost always the case. Now one thing to remember is that not all damage a mob does is melee. Only about 70% of all the damage almost all mobs do is melee. So with that in mind, the 1075 would be closer to 1537 total dps. So, thats the numbers. To sum up that part, on solo mobs, paladin heals >>> mit buffs. On heroic mobs, paladin heals > mit buffs. On epic mobs, paladin heals <<<< mit buffs. Two more things to consider about heals vs mit buffs. 1) To get thier sustained mit, a warrior casts 2 abilites every minute. But to get our sustained hp/s, we have to chain cast our heals, and basically spend id say about 50% of our time casting only those heals. 2) For a wariror to get thier mit, they use up 138 power per minute(2.3 power/sec). For us to get our 269 hp/sec, we use up 59.9 power/sec... thats 2601% more power... I myself can keep that up for a minute before I am completely oop and thats just healing, factor in taunts, and I got maybe 45 seconds tops, to do what a warrior can do by clicking 2 buttons every minute. And I guess that leaves dps. Since dps can vary a ton depending on how you play, ill just use a few personal example. Uber gaurdian raid tank, while tanking, 800 dps. Paladin raid tank, while tanking, 450 dps. Zerker while tanking, round 700 on singles, 1100+ on groups. Average gaurdian not tanking, also round 800ish. Zerker not tanking, bout the same as gaurdian. Paladin not tanking, in offensive, 25% melee crit, 40% haste, 30% dps mod, procs up the wazoo... average 500, closer to 750 on groups. Should also be noted that I the palaidn, and many other paladins I see, run oop when doing dps much earlier than every other fighter... and still wind up doing less... So thats it. As Lairdragna said, considering these disparities, you really do need to be exceptional at being a paladin for people to even acknowledge you. That is the sad messed up truth... We take more damage, we do less damage, we are harder to buff for hate, im not going to go into comparing our emergency stuff, that would be another few pages. I can sum it up in about 3 lines. ToS >>>>>>>> Divine favor AND LoH combined VoS > Divine Favor, cause its always up, doesnt stifle you, but there is a chance that you can get hit again with 2% health and die anyway. Reinforcement > Sigil, sigil may give us insane hate generation for 15 seconds, which is great for enforcing your present aggro, but reinforcements on a gaurd with dw on cant be beat for getting back lost aggro. No amount of raw hate can equal the ability to climb up hate positions. So that brings me to how we can improve our current situation... If our heals are supposed to be our answer to the warrior's mit buffs, then the power cost has to be reduced immensly. And when I mean immensly, I mean 1/4 the current amount. We will still need to chain cast everything to get the same effect, but now we wont go OOP within a few seconds because of it. And it makes us a bit more useful in a raid cause we can keep healing the MT longer if we focus solely on that. Dps, our dps needs to improve, a lot. I dont know if it is the buckler line, but in no situation should a tanking gaurdian be doing more dps than a 64% mastered offensive raid buffed paladin, unless I am asleep. All our spells and CAs could use a 10-20% boost, that should put us somewhere decent. Our tanking ability is trickier. I think the best thing would be to make pledge castable on ourselves. When cast like that, the mit debuff is removed, and the mit buff is cut in half. So we'd get 186 passive mit if cast on ourselves, and still be able to cast it on others at regular strength. Only other thing I can think of is to remove the magic resist from our def stance and add parry. PS. yes, I do have a habit of writing obscenely long and overly detailed posts. Yes I am a geek/brainiac/nerd who has too much free time on his hands... But least im thorough. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kenji1134 on <span class=date_text>08-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:23 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

99% of the posts about Paladin's and Warriors have a big dispartiy (mainly because of AA's, because face it ours suck compared) are from L70 Paladins with 50AAs', who have been playing the class since release and are at the highest level of the game now.So unless you have that type of experience don't base your opinions on how at L50 or something Paladin's rock......not saying your opinion doesn't matter, but the fact of the matter is you are not as experienced in the class to debunk those opinions....Just keep in mind that not many top end Paladins World Wide post here (maybe 5), compared to Warriors....so the vocal majority of the Paladins saying this might come off as negative.About myself (in case people don't know):L70 PaladinL70 Sage50 AAFrom Vagabonds (top guild on Unrest by far, and on the map of top Worldwide guilds) Have successfully raided and beat, every beatable encounter in this game numerous times (Chel'drak included) 5200 Mitigation self buffed, with no potions, no light chitin rings, no Cuirass of Protection8800 HP self buffed, with no potionsPlayed paladins from first month of release (started as an Illusionist, but stopped playing that...lol)[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good at my class - self proclaimed Top 5 World Wide (hehe this is my opinion alone, so don't get worked up) PaladinI have tanked almost every encounter we have beat, maybe not single (but on memwipe mobs one of) including - Princes, Hurricanus, Tarinax, Cruor, MO....the sole exception being Chel'drak (and not sure if a Crusader could tank this, but it would be interesting)I am not conceited enough to believe my opinion is greater then everyone elses' but in end game, and comparing to other classes I think I have a pretty darn good idea <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[RaistNA]

srsly phov kicks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], np What the biggest issue a lot of the very high end raid paladins have (i guess itook is an exception?) is the fact we are one of like...3 or 4 classes that dont have a single roll we perform better then most other classes in a raid. Can we tank?  well yea but guards are better Can we dps?  Well yea but rogues, preds, sorc's and summoners can all out dps us with relative ease Can we be utility?  for buffs not really, but we can rez, well so can a dirge, and a lot faster, with more repatition, and they can group rez...so yea I think the main thing is give us an AA, or SOMETHING that will define us and give us a defined position in the raid.  We are just the backup half everything.  Jack of all trades, master of none i guess u can say. Am i complaining and saying my class is underpowered?  naw, iv tanked everything my guild has killed (which is the same line up Phov listed) and i even was able to tank chal'drak for a short duration, but he shifted too far and his AE took out most of hte healers before we could adjust fast enough.  But up untill the healers died i was pretty solid.  My stats arnt even as good as Phovs either.  5.9k miti self buffed (no potions) and 8.1k hp (no potions or food) and 51% avoidance (again no potions or foods). I think the biggest issue paladins have is the fact we dont really have a definative position.  Maybe a definative AA line like the warrior's get would be nice. <div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Odinwray Treewalker wrote:<BR>i have to agree i dont like seeing all these "zomg why do paladins suck so hard?"<BR> threads. i have been playing the same troll paladin (first on server hehe <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) since september 04 3 days after launch and i have got to say we are in [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good shape right now. we may be lacking some in certain areas but i personally would say i havent noticed due to my play style. as a switcher style player i am gearing my paladin out to actually be a good DPS and backup healer for raids, while still having the ability to hold my own when i want to tank something. im doing something most paladins would never dream of and spreading my APs across the board in certain areas i like to tweak out DPS using methods to fix what i have analysed as the weak point in our DPS, being that once we run out of skills to use we kind of drop off real fast. im getting at least 3 new damage skills from APs and getting tons of crits and some skill tweaks that fit my style. one thing not many people notice is that some of these skills are real easy to use more than one of if you just hotkey some weapons and swap them as you like to use different skills, spreading the use of said skills apart enough to compensate for the 4 second timer to equip new stuff again. i have int 4444 and STA at 3 right now and when my guild is doing labs, say were killing the 3 named doom guys some call the 3 amigos, if i throw consecrate and droag masters rage out, fire my AoEs and all my skills off once, then just cast them some when they come up so i can keep the tank alive, i can sit back and basically do a passive 700+ DPS from a few skills i fired. i crit so often for so much that when im in my favorite group set up i still sit back and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] myself when i do things that most say arent possible. im not positive where im going to take my APs from now on after i get melee crits at ap4 at least, but i know right now i can still strike awe in anyone in the right situation. just a note, i find it particually useful to use castigate in blackscale sep by pulling the room with the first named in it in whole, with consecrate and droag masters rage going when i run in, then watching the effects stack up real fast and firing castigate. today i was lucky enough to have the perfect group, if there is such a thing, and when i fired the castigate every damage tick (15 a target) went crit for 900-1k damage (group layout is paladin dirge zerker conj wiz fury, m1 offensive in devout xego dps armor), droping most of them right off. a lot of our classes power, as seen above, lies in choosing your APs wisely and timing your skills around what is going on around you, while at the same time playing your class with a bit of common sense, a clear head, strategic critical thinking, and skill. once i am at 50 AP, if everything turns out as i hope it will, i will bring a video of some of these events to the forums for you to watch to prove that things like the above are possible. if i had known i was actaully gonna get the equivilant of a fusion bomb out of my castigate i woulda been hovering over screenshot button in advance lol<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Are you talking about beta when mentioning September of 04?  As far as i remember the game did not go 'live' till november of 04.  Either you are mistaken or talking of beta, and we all know how different the game is from beta or major updates....<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Congratulations on having fun playing the healer/dpser side, i do that also, but still yearn for more AA love for tanking.<BR>

[MickM]

<DIV>While some of you complain that the majority of the paladin community or average paladin can't tank better then a warrior and you try to discredit any info from a better geared paladin as some pointed out you have to realize the balancing issues that would cause. To balance a class you would have to look at the higher geared player. If you were to balance a class on crap gear then that would tip the scale a lot towards the better geared classes. If they made it to where paladins could do 800-1k dps in xegonite, which seems what most of you expect, then for people with better gear would be putting out numbers that would cause even more flame threads on how paladin dps should be nerfed. You can't just look at your character's ability. You have to take into account other paladins as well. Face it, some are just gonna be better geared and perform better then others.</DIV>

[andragor]

<P>Ok Ok, how long have we got to put up with the 'Paladins suck' forums.  Every class has good and bad about them and this will always be the case.  The key to playing a paladin is understanding what we are and why we gain the skills we do.  For example a paladin in most roleplaying games basically kicks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for his god or deity.</P> <P>People feel we are poor fighters, this is so not the case, i will grant you we are not the best stand toe to toe fighter, but you have to remember we are not just fighters.  I have read in most roleplaying games that a paladin is 75% fighter, 25% cleric (the percentages are different for different roleplaying games), this means that we are not a complete walking tank.  We are simply a tank with different bells and whistles that adds to our ability's.  </P> <P>A paladin has healing, wards and such like a cleric (before you shout, not has strong as a cleric) this is such a big advantage over a Tank who is simply a tank.  Hell a paladin can rez, heal, ward and dish out a good amount of damage and still be able to take a good deal of damage before hitting the floor.  </P> <P>Come on guys to simply throw our toys out the pram and say we suck as paladins should stop.  Lets just play to our strengths and work with what we have been given.  And remember the golden rule this is a game and the point is to have fun. </P> <P>Good luck all and good hunting <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by andragoras on <span class=date_text>08-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:31 PM</span>

[Artorius_]

<P> i dont think paladin sucks and dont think nobody says that. In group is nice tank (dont forget we are tanks, not healer, we can heal a bit to compensate the more tanking in warrior subclass).</P> <P> The problem is that we are near to useless in raid scenario. Warrior can tank better than us by far, healers heal better obiusly and dps do more dps. Then... why you put a pally in a raid unless you have freeslots? no sense is the response. My paladin is equiped legendary/fabled full from raids t7. i have 50 AAs... no need to group more, only to finish deatholl access, claymore in DT point....</P> <P> In raid is unnecesary, im playing currently a shaman in raids i have too lvl 70 because the paladin is a waste of slots. Id never said than we cant tank, but our 2 guardians with similar equipement than me do better, similar resists, better mitigation, better avoidance, more hps.... you understand? We prefer a scout or mage for dps and buffs spots and we have enought healers to fill the raid with 7 for sure and somes waiting spot some times.</P> <P> In think a paladin SOE must give us a role in raid, put as in tanking more similar to a guardian (but using our skills, i dont ask for exact capabilities of a warr). Our wards and heals tanking in raid a named are useless, we are being interrupted all time, then our compensation for less mit, hps and avoidance are useless or near. I only play my pally in zones im overgeared for mobs, when only 1 guardian is up and our MT want save armor for the deeper zones, the rest i use Shaman if needed and im leveling a dps. </P> <P> if SOE dont do a good change to our class in this scenario, raids will be hard for us unless you havent enought roster to fill the raid.</P> <P> This is not whining, is the reality, we are a nice class in group, solo scenarios but in raid we are useless comparing rest of classes and no sens eti put us unless you need to fill spots.</P> <P> </P> <P>PD: sorry for my bad bad bad english, i hope you can understand what i want to say</P><p>Message Edited by Artorius_ on <span class=date_text>08-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:15 AM</span>

[Mantell]

<DIV>I go back to what I said before, our main advantage in a raid is versatility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are a healer when the raid needs one more healer. We can tank if we need to tank. We're a good choice for MA or OT when needed, and when not we can go back to DPS. We are reasonable DPS when nothing else. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having one person (or even two people) on a raid that can be flexible and do any of those things is an asset. Otherwise you could swap people out but that gets old.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe the first named needs to be split-tanked. You need someone who can tank the adds while the MT holds the main guy. Paladin is a great choice for that. Gear up mitigation and put on Defensive Stance. Put Amends on someone who will be fighting adds with you. Now you're the OT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The second named has lots of HP and calls a ton of adds that need to get AOE-d down before they wipe the raid. That same Paladin changes to offensive and 2-H weapon and starts hammering AOEs and Consecrate. (Disclaimer: Check with tank before firing off Consecrate in a raid.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The third named throws off a ton of damage in big spikes. That same Paladin is now a healer, warding and throwing his big heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you had an extra Guardian with the raid instead of the Paladin he could do #1. He's of no great use in #2 or #3. </DIV> <DIV>If you had an extra Berserker with the raid he could do #1 and #2, but he's no help with #3. </DIV> <DIV>If you had an extra healer in the raid to deal with Mob #3 you lose the benefits for the first two.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I raid I'm about the only person who I see being called on to change roles regularly. That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. There are 4 or 5 70 Paladins in our guild and I never see one get left behind for a "better" class. Almost all of our raids have one and some have 2 or 3.</DIV>

[treedo]

Paladins suck, oh wait. I play on Venekor, pvp server. from one perspective I think the OP might be right, that we don't suck.the testomonie I bring are pvp stats, just one tier, just from the Qeynos perspective (since there are no Paladins in Freeport) and just the top 3, Taken at 2:24 CDT on day of post.Qeynos Guardians with most kills from  31-40 (the tier I am in) kills               Kills VS Deaths        Kill Streak410                      5.39                         3247                      3.12                         0213                      1.79                         1Zerkers same as aboveKills              Kill VS Deaths          Kill Streak767                     2.67                          0758                     6.31                         36722                     6.22                          0Pallys same as aboveKills              Kill VS Deaths         Kill Streak948                   18.96                          0842                     7.25                          69657                     1.35                          3disclaimer, The number 2 paladin is meFor the Glory of QeynosDethnel O'Bradain 32 Paladin of Sanctuary <div></div>

[Lairdragna]

I don't think paladins suck at all, if I did I would ditch mine.  I also think we serve a great purpose on raids for all the reasons listed.  A paladin with lay hands can save a wipe, can step in and tank until the MT is rezzed and rebuffed, an offtank adds or split the mobs.  I think a paladin is a must have on a raid, and in fact my guild holds a slot open for a paladin.  Optimally we have a guardian, zerker, paladin and an sk on a raid.  We find that going with that mix allows us to structure our raid very effectively.<div></div>

[andragor]

<P>It makes me happy to hear there are other people out there that enjoy playing there Paladin.  I have just made 47 and i am enjoying the char more and more, and i am finding i can assist any group.  Even if i am simply a meat shield or a secondary healer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Turb]

A big +focus bonus on our defensive stance would be a step in the right direction.

[ChopStix]

<P>treedog1,</P> <P> </P> <P>how many of those paladins are above lvl 58?</P>

[treedo]

I feel for ya brotha.Regaurdless of the arguement I have this sneaking suspition that nothing said will ever change your mind. I suggest that you make an alt, take a break for this toon that you have deep inner hostility toward and let go of your feelings a bit, otherwise the hate will consume your game time and you will look to other hobbies different then EQ2. Play a scout, there really isn't much responsibility there and you can make the group shine by being good at your job.<div></div>

[Jeffmaster]

<P>DarthKerwin said:</P> <DIV> <DIV>I keep seeing threads about how bad we suck and I usually just ignore it. But I finally have to stick my head up and agree with the OP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we were the top tank class people would complain that all we can do is tank.</DIV> <DIV>If we were the top healer class people would complain that all we can do is heal.</DIV> <DIV>If we were the top DPS class people would complain that we can't tank or heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What we are is <U>versatile</U>.</DIV> <DIV>We can solo very well IMO. Not as fast as some but we're steady.</DIV> <DIV>We can tank very well in a group. Unless someone is trying to take aggro they probably won't.</DIV> <DIV>When we're in a raid we can tank but we're better off in a support role. That's OK because there are too many tanks in most raids anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a raid I'm never the MT. But I'm constantly switching roles between warding the tank, healing the tank, healing other people who took damage from a stray AOE. Between tossing heals I'm firing off CAs and DPSing. Poor unfortunates who die benefit from my rez.</DIV> <DIV>-If we have too many healers I stop healing. I go in offensive stance, strap on my stat-boosting gear and fire away. I sometimes even make the top 10 on the parser.</DIV> <DIV>-If we don't have enough healers I throw on defensive stance and spam my heals and wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best of all... we can switch on the fly! When a healer in the MT group goes down the raid is likely to wipe. But no, the Pallies can immediately start spamming heals to keep the tank up while the healers get rezzed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have three abilities that snatch victory from the jaws of defeat in almost every raid</DIV> <DIV>-Our lay hands line is a godsend when things get ahead of the healers. Can't tell you how many times I've heard "We're losing it... oh wait... he's OK". Makes me feel like I earned my DKP for the night.</DIV> <DIV>-Our combat rez is the best in the game. When someone dies in AE range most rezzes leave them in the red and vulnerable. Ours is full health. I've brought back the MT while the backup tank holds the mob. Not something we like to do but it happens.</DIV> <DIV>-Our mitigation buff makes a huge difference. It's not as flashy but it's always there, always doing its job. If we forget to cast it we know right away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You think it sucks to be a Paladin in a raid? Try being Guardian #3.</DIV> <DIV>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Very good points...I know we could use some kind of tweaking, but I just love my Paly</DIV></DIV>

[enjoilab]

too bad we have crappy aa's....*prays for eof to come sooner

[Turb]

<blockquote><hr>enjoilabel wrote:too bad we have crappy aa's....*prays for eof to come sooner<hr></blockquote>OK, we don't have a warrior's Buckler Reversal STA AA or Mit buff WIS AA, but I use our STA AA to good effect and the INT line crits are nice. Our AA's are like our general skills, better suited to group play than raid play, but they could be worse <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I hope the subclass specific AA lines give us something raid-useful.

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>DarthKerwin wrote:<DIV><DIV>I keep seeing threads about how bad we suck and I usually just ignore it. But I finally have to stick my head up and agree with the OP.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>If we were the top tank class people would complain that all we can do is tank.</DIV><DIV>If we were the top healer class people would complain that all we can do is heal.</DIV><DIV>If we were the top DPS class people would complain that we can't tank or heal.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>What we are is <U>versatile</U>.</DIV><DIV>We can solo very well IMO. Not as fast as some but we're steady.</DIV><DIV>We can tank very well in a group. Unless someone is trying to take aggro they probably won't.</DIV><DIV>When we're in a raid we can tank but we're better off in a support role. That's OK because there are too many tanks in most raids anyway.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>In a raid I'm never the MT. But I'm constantly switching roles between warding the tank, healing the tank, healing other people who took damage from a stray AOE. Between tossing heals I'm firing off CAs and DPSing. Poor unfortunates who die benefit from my rez.</DIV><DIV>-If we have too many healers I stop healing. I go in offensive stance, strap on my stat-boosting gear and fire away. I sometimes even make the top 10 on the parser.</DIV><DIV>-If we don't have enough healers I throw on defensive stance and spam my heals and wards.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Best of all... we can switch on the fly! When a healer in the MT group goes down the raid is likely to wipe. But no, the Pallies can immediately start spamming heals to keep the tank up while the healers get rezzed.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>We have three abilities that snatch victory from the jaws of defeat in almost every raid</DIV><DIV>-Our lay hands line is a godsend when things get ahead of the healers. Can't tell you how many times I've heard "We're losing it... oh wait... he's OK". Makes me feel like I earned my DKP for the night.</DIV><DIV>-Our combat rez is the best in the game. When someone dies in AE range most rezzes leave them in the red and vulnerable. Ours is full health. I've brought back the MT while the backup tank holds the mob. Not something we like to do but it happens.</DIV><DIV>-Our mitigation buff makes a huge difference. It's not as flashy but it's always there, always doing its job. If we forget to cast it we know right away.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>You think it sucks to be a Paladin in a raid? Try being Guardian #3.</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>Your versatility points are valid for a guild that raids casually.A harcore raiding guild strives for the best balance in their force so they will not have a guardian #3 and when they require more healing they don't take the paladin to heal, but a priest archclass as that is what they do best. When they lack DPS they will choose a class that can easily out DPS a paladin.Disclaimer, I'm not in a hardcore raiding guild, in fact I'm from a guild that casualy raids and are makeup isn't very balanced, but from what I understand my points are valid (please correct me if I'm wrong and you are from a hardcore raiding guild)IMHO paladins "suck" for harcore raiding, but are a great asset for less harcore playstyles. Does that make the whole class suck? No, just a small aspect of the Paladin.<p>Message Edited by Dwergux on <span class=date_text>09-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:10 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dwergux wrote:<blockquote><hr>DarthKerwin wrote:<div></div><div><div>I keep seeing threads about how bad we suck and I usually just ignore it. But I finally have to stick my head up and agree with the OP.</div><div> </div><div>If we were the top tank class people would complain that all we can do is tank.</div><div>If we were the top healer class people would complain that all we can do is heal.</div><div>If we were the top DPS class people would complain that we can't tank or heal.</div><div> </div><div>What we are is <u>versatile</u>.</div><div>We can solo very well IMO. Not as fast as some but we're steady.</div><div>We can tank very well in a group. Unless someone is trying to take aggro they probably won't.</div><div>When we're in a raid we can tank but we're better off in a support role. That's OK because there are too many tanks in most raids anyway.</div><div> </div><div>In a raid I'm never the MT. But I'm constantly switching roles between warding the tank, healing the tank, healing other people who took damage from a stray AOE. Between tossing heals I'm firing off CAs and DPSing. Poor unfortunates who die benefit from my rez.</div><div>-If we have too many healers I stop healing. I go in offensive stance, strap on my stat-boosting gear and fire away. I sometimes even make the top 10 on the parser.</div><div>-If we don't have enough healers I throw on defensive stance and spam my heals and wards.</div><div> </div><div>Best of all... we can switch on the fly! When a healer in the MT group goes down the raid is likely to wipe. But no, the Pallies can immediately start spamming heals to keep the tank up while the healers get rezzed.</div><div> </div><div>We have three abilities that snatch victory from the jaws of defeat in almost every raid</div><div>-Our lay hands line is a godsend when things get ahead of the healers. Can't tell you how many times I've heard "We're losing it... oh wait... he's OK". Makes me feel like I earned my DKP for the night.</div><div>-Our combat rez is the best in the game. When someone dies in AE range most rezzes leave them in the red and vulnerable. Ours is full health. I've brought back the MT while the backup tank holds the mob. Not something we like to do but it happens.</div><div>-Our mitigation buff makes a huge difference. It's not as flashy but it's always there, always doing its job. If we forget to cast it we know right away.</div><div> </div><div>You think it sucks to be a Paladin in a raid? Try being Guardian #3.</div></div><hr></blockquote>Your versatility points are valid for a guild that raids casually.A harcore raiding guild strives for the best balance in their force so they will not have a guardian #3 and when they require more healing they don't take the paladin to heal, but a priest archclass as that is what they do best. When they lack DPS they will choose a class that can easily out DPS a paladin.Disclaimer, I'm not in a hardcore raiding guild, in fact I'm from a guild that casualy raids and are makeup isn't very balanced, but from what I understand my points are valid (please correct me if I'm wrong and you are from a hardcore raiding guild)IMHO paladins "suck" for harcore raiding, but are a great asset for less harcore playstyles. Does that make the whole class suck? No, just a small aspect of the Paladin.<p>Message Edited by Dwergux on <span class="date_text">09-05-2006</span> <span class="time_text">01:10 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Look at my post on the first page, it about sums it up.</div>

[Dwergux]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:99% of the posts about Paladin's and Warriors have a big dispartiy (mainly because of AA's, because face it ours suck compared) are from L70 Paladins with 50AAs', who have been playing the class since release and are at the highest level of the game now.So unless you have that type of experience don't base your opinions on how at L50 or something Paladin's rock......not saying your opinion doesn't matter, but the fact of the matter is you are not as experienced in the class to debunk those opinions....Just keep in mind that not many top end Paladins World Wide post here (maybe 5), compared to Warriors....so the vocal majority of the Paladins saying this might come off as negative....I have tanked almost every encounter we have beat, maybe not single (but on memwipe mobs one of) including - Princes, Hurricanus, Tarinax, Cruor, MO....the sole exception being Chel'drak (and not sure if a Crusader could tank this, but it would be interesting)I am not conceited enough to believe my opinion is greater then everyone elses' but in end game, and comparing to other classes I think I have a pretty darn good idea <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>I've read your post. Now does that make my assumption right or wrong or am I disqualified for not having been in the end-game content?I didn't base my opinion upon how we were at level 50 (we rocked at lev 50 pre LU13, but that is another story) but upon my own experience at casual raiding and what I've read here on the boards posted by paladins who raid high-end content.Points I took in consideration:- A casual raiding guild often doesn't have a well balanced mix, so adding a paladin can be good for they can fill different roles in a raid where the best of the best isn't required.- A MT in a casual raiding guild often isn't at capped mitigation so the mitigation buff of a crusader helps alot- A "hardcore" raiding guild has a balanced mix, with specialists for each requirement (I could be wrong here)- The MT in a "hardcore" raiding guild often has his mitigation capped so the mitigation buff of a paladin does not add much (still much discussion wether mitigation over the "cap" works or not)</div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Dwergux wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:99% of the posts about Paladin's and Warriors have a big dispartiy (mainly because of AA's, because face it ours suck compared) are from L70 Paladins with 50AAs', who have been playing the class since release and are at the highest level of the game now.So unless you have that type of experience don't base your opinions on how at L50 or something Paladin's rock......not saying your opinion doesn't matter, but the fact of the matter is you are not as experienced in the class to debunk those opinions....Just keep in mind that not many top end Paladins World Wide post here (maybe 5), compared to Warriors....so the vocal majority of the Paladins saying this might come off as negative....I have tanked almost every encounter we have beat, maybe not single (but on memwipe mobs one of) including - Princes, Hurricanus, Tarinax, Cruor, MO....the sole exception being Chel'drak (and not sure if a Crusader could tank this, but it would be interesting)I am not conceited enough to believe my opinion is greater then everyone elses' but in end game, and comparing to other classes I think I have a pretty darn good idea <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>I've read your post. Now does that make my assumption right or wrong or am I disqualified for not having been in the end-game content?I didn't base my opinion upon how we were at level 50 (we rocked at lev 50 pre LU13, but that is another story) but upon my own experience at casual raiding and what I've read here on the boards posted by paladins who raid high-end content.Points I took in consideration:- A casual raiding guild often doesn't have a well balanced mix, so adding a paladin can be good for they can fill different roles in a raid where the best of the best isn't required.- A MT in a casual raiding guild often isn't at capped mitigation so the mitigation buff of a crusader helps alot- A "hardcore" raiding guild has a balanced mix, with specialists for each requirement (I could be wrong here)- The MT in a "hardcore" raiding guild often has his mitigation capped so the mitigation buff of a paladin does not add much (still much discussion wether mitigation over the "cap" works or not)</div><hr></blockquote>My points, to your points:-- True, in a non min/max, end game raid, a Paladin can do some good things for the raid.-- True again.  A Casual raiding MT probably won't have maxed mitigation, so Pledge would be helpful....though with some easily gained drops against what a Casual raiding guild might be raiding, they should be near it.-- A 'hardcore' raiding guild normally only keeps classes on there roster that aren't needed, due to said people being in the guild before said class sucked <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />-- True again.Not sure what we proved, but those are my answers.  </div>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:Not sure what we proved, but those are my answers.<hr></blockquote>I think we proved we agree and that the suckage of Paladin's depends on your level of play <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Mantell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dwergux wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR>Your versatility points are valid for a guild that raids casually.<BR><BR>A harcore raiding guild strives for the best balance in their force so they will not have a guardian #3 and when they require more healing they don't take the paladin to heal, but a priest archclass as that is what they do best. When they lack DPS they will choose a class that can easily out DPS a paladin.<BR><BR>Disclaimer, I'm not in a hardcore raiding guild, in fact I'm from a guild that casualy raids and are makeup isn't very balanced, but from what I understand my points are valid (please correct me if I'm wrong and you are from a hardcore raiding guild)<BR><BR>IMHO paladins "suck" for harcore raiding, but are a great asset for less harcore playstyles. <BR>Does that make the whole class suck? No, just a small aspect of the Paladin. <P>Message Edited by Dwergux on <SPAN class=date_text>09-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:10 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Versatility is required because not every raid is just a single mob. If you know you're going to go fight one mob who has a certain quality then yes you can set up a specific team for that mob. But if you go to a zone with several named mobs each of them needs to be fought a different way. I'm thinking of zones like Akhet Akhen in T6 or Labs in T7. These zones have one mob who does high damage and who requires an extra healer. They have another mob who needs an off-tank to tank his adds. They have a third mob who requires fast DPS. Paladins are good for all three of these. Plus that lay-hands is huge. Instant big heal with little power.</P> <P>I don't know if you'd say my guild is a hardcore raider.  We have an official raid 3 times a week, sometimes we field two X4 raids simultaneously. We do X2s other nights, sometimes muster for a X4. We're in Deathtoll, having beaten all the raids up to that, but haven't killed Tarinax yet. Despite the fact that we're in end-game content I wouldn't say we're hardcore. We don't make people show up or quit their job to be at the raid. We don't have people assigned to watch for contested mobs 24/7 with a list of phone numbers. People can leave the raid if their house is on fire and not get booted from the guild.</P> <P>We field the best group we can for our main raid and there are usually two or three Paladins in that group. We had one Pally roll a new bruiser main but for the most part we're all pretty happy with our raid time.</P> <P> </P>

[Mantell]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dwergux wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I've read your post. Now does that make my assumption right or wrong or am I disqualified for not having been in the end-game content?<BR>I didn't base my opinion upon how we were at level 50 (we rocked at lev 50 pre LU13, but that is another story) but upon my own experience at casual raiding and what I've read here on the boards posted by paladins who raid high-end content.<BR><BR>Points I took in consideration:<BR>- A casual raiding guild often doesn't have a well balanced mix, so adding a paladin can be good for they can fill different roles in a raid where the best of the best isn't required.<BR>- A MT in a casual raiding guild often isn't at capped mitigation so the mitigation buff of a crusader helps alot<BR>- A "hardcore" raiding guild has a balanced mix, with specialists for each requirement (I could be wrong here)<BR>- The MT in a "hardcore" raiding guild often has his mitigation capped so the mitigation buff of a paladin does not add much (still much discussion wether mitigation over the "cap" works or not)<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah we're not sure about the mitigation being capped or not. But even if it is, some of the new "tricks" that SOE has incorporated into Epic mobs lately seem to involve dropping mitigation severely. Nice to have a little more for a Paladin. Now if there's someone else who works better in the MT group we'll swap them out but it rarely seems to happen in practice. We did it on the AOA X4 raid the other day because we needed a paladin to tank the adds from another group or some such. I think we stuck an SK in the main tank group for the same buff though. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>