Will we ever tank like a plate tank should? And what's with my dps?

[motx]

<DIV> Heya Paladin Brothers and Sisters!,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   I've been playing my Paladin for over a year now, and I'm just posting this as a spot for others and myself to post how we really would like to see the Paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   I really like all the stuff we can do, but i'm so weak compaired to other plate tanks in the mit, avoidance and dps that I've had a hell of a time finding a raid guild that will take me. This class seems to be lost in the mix, I thought we where supposed to be Holy Warriors and I'm a low class plate tank. I get out dps'd by Berzerkers and Guadians using a board and sword when i'm in offensive with a fabled 2H. I'm loaded with all adpet 3's and 12 master's that are used at my lvl (70), my Int is way up, my AA's are at 50(sta 8/4/8/8 and int 8/4/8/1). All Fabled and Legendary gear..... I could go on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   I really hope the devs read this post in hopes of making our class what folks want from Paladins, so post what you want changed here...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Bottom line for me is I would like my mit and avoidance increased to match or close to Guardians/Berzerkers and dps in line also, I feel like i'm getting the short end of the stick here cause i'm always second choice, and i mean always. How's about the rest of ya Paladins?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  I want to crusade, not be thrown to the wayside like a begger or thief. I don't want to be a humble squire. I want to be the Holy Warrior.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Please let us be the Tanks we thought we where gonna be, heck this is a mmorpg and I'm a Paladin, let me shine a little too =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nevar]

<DIV>I have just as much mit and Hps as our warriors, actually Ihave more Hps then they do and I tank just about as good as they but, we dont have the oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] spells like warriors do. Thats about the only differance. I think your gear is the reason you are being thrown out not the class.</DIV> <DIV>Dps, yea we just got shafted on AAs, whereas theygot uber ones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will say it again, I think our class is fine. Our dps a little subpar? Maybe.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nevarer wrote:<div>I have just as much mit and Hps as our warriors, actually Ihave more Hps then they do and I tank just about as good as they but, we dont have the oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] spells like warriors do. Thats about the only differance. I think your gear is the reason you are being thrown out not the class.</div> <div>Dps, yea we just got shafted on AAs, whereas theygot uber ones.</div> <div> </div> <div>I will say it again, I think our class is fine. Our dps a little subpar? Maybe.</div><hr></blockquote>Itoock is calmer when he says' it, and not as negative as I am sometimes....but he is spot on....</div>

[motx]

<P>I was not thrown out of a guild, just about impossible to find a raiding guild looking to take pali's. Just curious, seeing that you 2 are pretty much the high of the highend, what does your avoidance sit at?</P>

[Nevar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> motx wrote:<BR> <P>I was not thrown out of a guild, just about impossible to find a raiding guild looking to take pali's. Just curious, seeing that you 2 are pretty much the high of the highend, what does your avoidance sit at?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>about 48-49% somewhere in that range ( im not logged into say exactly ) and avoidance is only big for brawlers. my mit sits around 5400ish depending on what im tanking I switch in a few things. Wouldnt worry about Avoid. MIT is king for plate.

[MeridianR]

Avoid in 53% I believe, or it was last night when I logged out....(and I was solo)Mitigation with normal stuff is 5200ish, through I can get it up to near 5300 with different things....For Plate Avoid is secondary by far to mitigation <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[ChopStix]

<P>i agree..</P> <P> </P> <P>especially in t7, you might as well throw our heals in the trash , and our dps is so lacking its almost embarassing to play a paladin...</P>

[Nevar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChopStix wrote:<BR> <P>i agree..</P> <P> </P> <P>especially in t7, you might as well throw our heals in the trash , and our dps is so lacking its almost embarassing to play a paladin...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You must be a [Removed for Content] poor player if thats your opinion.

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nevarer wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have just as much mit and Hps as our warriors, actually Ihave more Hps then they do and I tank just about as good as they but, we dont have the oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] spells like warriors do. Thats about the only differance. I think your gear is the reason you are being thrown out not the class.</DIV> <DIV>Dps, yea we just got shafted on AAs, whereas theygot uber ones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will say it again, I think our class is fine. Our dps a little subpar? Maybe.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Itoock is calmer when he says' it, and not as negative as I am sometimes....but he is spot on....<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Aye....I don't even raid but I agree completely with these guys.</P> <P>OP...you may be having trouble finding a guild because you only need 1 or 2 tanks per raid so we aren't in high demand in that regard. As far as tanking skills, I know of several raiding guilds that have a Paladin as their MT....imagine that!!</P> <P>If you want to see a Paladin that is a completely screwed up and gimped class...go play WoW.</P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>ChopStix wrote:<div></div> <p>i agree..</p> <p>especially in t7, you might as well throw our heals in the trash , and our dps is so lacking its almost embarassing to play a paladin...</p><hr></blockquote>I wouldn't go that far, my heals (granted every heal is at Master for me), especially Celestial Touch have saved raids before.....and they are far from useless....We aren't pure healers, and while I can't say I love healing....our heals are pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good.  (again all heals, wards are master)DPS wise - with the right AA setup, we are decent, unless you compare our DPS to Warriors with the Stamina (Buckler) AA line....but you have to set them up properly.Max Dps AAs' (from my testing, your testing could be different)8 points in Melee Crits8 points in Spell CritsMy setup (which I should just put in my sig since I type it so much) is 8488 Stamina, 4485 Int.....I might have switched to 4488 Stamina 8485 Int if I were to respec again, since stamina is simple to cap @ 70.</div>

[Crib92]

<P>My mit is just below 5200, HP is 8K, avoid is about 48%. I think I'm in an ok place but obviously would like my HP higher.  Looking at Zerkers the HP is comparable.  Guards I'm well below.  Mit about 300 lower on average.  (But still Max out Mit buffed)</P> <P>This is in a tank set up.  I can get my hp much higher when not tanking which I often do as well as bump up my attack capability and resists to suit the situation.</P> <P>I'm spec'd Sta and Int btw.  maxed in melee and spell crits, as well as maxed in hp gain.</P> <P><STRONG>I would like to see a better ranged attack option</STRONG> (CA or Spell) HOS is a pain in the [Removed for Content] at times.   While doable, it is challenging on fast moving traps to get aggro, especially when resisted. (As well as warping through walls) You have to be close to spam a taunt or two and that could cause someone to die if they are bugged.    The Overload encounter can be a challenge if not timed well due to timing of the arrival of mobs.  That to me is my biggest complaint.  </P> <P>The whole dps question is interesting.  The Pally v. zerker thread brings up some interesting questions.  Bottom line LU13 saw Pally dps drop intentially.  So SOE can go two ways, increase Pally dps or lower guard and Zerker.  I would think that Zerker/Guard dps is going to be lowed due to the AA issue rather than pally gaining pre lu13 levels.</P> <P>In terms of the subject line what does that mean?  Is there one way to tank???  If Warrior tanking is the right way then the answer is no, we will never tank as we should.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Crib92]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>DPS wise - with the right AA setup, we are decent, unless you compare our DPS to Warriors with the Stamina (Buckler) AA line....but you have to set them up properly.<BR><BR>Max Dps AAs' (from my testing, your testing could be different)<BR><BR>8 points in Melee Crits<BR>8 points in Spell Crits<BR><BR>My setup (which I should just put in my sig since I type it so much) is 8488 Stamina, 4485 Int.....I might have switched to 4488 Stamina 8485 Int if I were to respec again, since stamina is simple to cap @ 70.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Only thing different right now between us is that I got my little shadow axe so I went app1 on the short term haste buff. (Str)  Thought I would try that out rather then put in healing crits.<BR>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Crib92 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote: <div>DPS wise - with the right AA setup, we are decent, unless you compare our DPS to Warriors with the Stamina (Buckler) AA line....but you have to set them up properly.Max Dps AAs' (from my testing, your testing could be different)8 points in Melee Crits8 points in Spell CritsMy setup (which I should just put in my sig since I type it so much) is 8488 Stamina, 4485 Int.....I might have switched to 4488 Stamina 8485 Int if I were to respec again, since stamina is simple to cap @ 70.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Only thing different right now between us is that I got my little shadow axe so I went app1 on the short term haste buff. (Str)  Thought I would try that out rather then put in healing crits.<hr></blockquote>Yeah I used that with both Ascendant and Shadow Axe, but gave it up for a little added healing power....again I dont like healing, but meh it does help</div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Crib92 wrote:<div></div> <p>My mit is just below 5200, HP is 8K, avoid is about 48%. I think I'm in an ok place but obviously would like my HP higher.  Looking at Zerkers the HP is comparable.  Guards I'm well below.  Mit about 300 lower on average.  (But still Max out Mit buffed)</p> <p>This is in a tank set up.  I can get my hp much higher when not tanking which I often do as well as bump up my attack capability and resists to suit the situation.</p> <p>I'm spec'd Sta and Int btw.  maxed in melee and spell crits, as well as maxed in hp gain.</p> <p><strong>I would like to see a better ranged attack option</strong> (CA or Spell) HOS is a pain in the [Removed for Content] at times.   While doable, it is challenging on fast moving traps to get aggro, especially when resisted. (As well as warping through walls) You have to be close to spam a taunt or two and that could cause someone to die if they are bugged.    The Overload encounter can be a challenge if not timed well due to timing of the arrival of mobs.  That to me is my biggest complaint.  </p> <p>The whole dps question is interesting.  The Pally v. zerker thread brings up some interesting questions.  Bottom line LU13 saw Pally dps drop intentially.  So SOE can go two ways, increase Pally dps or lower guard and Zerker.  I would think that Zerker/Guard dps is going to be lowed due to the AA issue rather than pally gaining pre lu13 levels.</p> <p>In terms of the subject line what does that mean?  Is there one way to tank???  If Warrior tanking is the right way then the answer is no, we will never tank as we should.</p> <hr></blockquote>Man not sure if you played back in T5, but remember a RGF when in pure offensive mode....lol, we were dps machines <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Crib92]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crib92 wrote:<BR> <P>My mit is just below 5200, HP is 8K, avoid is about 48%. I think I'm in an ok place but obviously would like my HP higher.  Looking at Zerkers the HP is comparable.  Guards I'm well below.  Mit about 300 lower on average.  (But still Max out Mit buffed)</P> <P>This is in a tank set up.  I can get my hp much higher when not tanking which I often do as well as bump up my attack capability and resists to suit the situation.</P> <P>I'm spec'd Sta and Int btw.  maxed in melee and spell crits, as well as maxed in hp gain.</P> <P><STRONG>I would like to see a better ranged attack option</STRONG> (CA or Spell) HOS is a pain in the [Removed for Content] at times.   While doable, it is challenging on fast moving traps to get aggro, especially when resisted. (As well as warping through walls) You have to be close to spam a taunt or two and that could cause someone to die if they are bugged.    The Overload encounter can be a challenge if not timed well due to timing of the arrival of mobs.  That to me is my biggest complaint.  </P> <P>The whole dps question is interesting.  The Pally v. zerker thread brings up some interesting questions.  Bottom line LU13 saw Pally dps drop intentially.  So SOE can go two ways, increase Pally dps or lower guard and Zerker.  I would think that Zerker/Guard dps is going to be lowed due to the AA issue rather than pally gaining pre lu13 levels.</P> <P>In terms of the subject line what does that mean?  Is there one way to tank???  If Warrior tanking is the right way then the answer is no, we will never tank as we should.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Man not sure if you played back in T5, but remember a RGF when in pure offensive mode....lol, we were dps machines <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I literally died 20 straight times against a heroic after the change. (I'm hard headed)  I almost quit the game lol.  I missed the dps until I changed my playstyle.

[madha]

<P>I have Wisdon line 44881 and Max melee crit with 1 point just tossed somewhere, So I am no way AA set up for MAX DPS, but i watch all the debuffs on the mobs to cast my nukes to get the best effect. Consecrate is our best DPS during multi mob encounters, cant find it master I would porb go broke buying it.  And our Dot debuff that nukes mobs for every debuff we have is very fun.  I dont have a fabled 2 hander and i can get 600 dps in  MT group with dirg buffs, i out parse lazy scouts and i out heal parse lazy healers, So i am the bench mark for the raid if i show up on the dps parse to often scouts start getting yelled at and if im #3 on the heal parse healers get a little talking to.  </P> <P>But you are right most guilds dont need paladins, more then not they have 2 realy good paladins and anymore would be over kill, I Wish SOE would broadcast the class break down Paladins would be number 1 or in the top 5.  And if you think about it more then 1 plate tank per raid group is over kill. Face it tanks are tanks we arnt realy needed for raids unless to absorb hate from casters and our DPS will allways fall behind anyother class, cept templers =P</P>

[Anariale]

<P>Ask any healer about how difficult it is to heal a Paladin over a Guardian or Berserker.</P> <P>They can give you the most unbiased opinion.</P> <P> </P> <P>W</P>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <P>Ask any healer about how difficult it is to heal a Paladin over a Guardian or Berserker.</P> <P>They can give you the most unbiased opinion.</P> <P> </P> <P>W</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yep...just did that. They all said, given equal quality gear, it's no more difficult than healing any other class.

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <P>Ask any healer about how difficult it is to heal a Paladin over a Guardian or Berserker.</P> <P>They can give you the most unbiased opinion.</P> <P> </P> <P>W</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yep...just did that. They all said, given equal quality gear, it's no more difficult than healing any other class.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not to be mean, but you said you dont raid.</P> <P>I agree, Paladins in a 1-group setup are perfectly fine.  The problem is that they do not scale well to Epic, raid encounters.</P> <P>W</P>

[Zaloorb]

<hr>          Nevarer wrote: <div>          I have just as much mit and Hps as our warriors, actually Ihave more Hps then they do and I tank just about as good as they but, we dont have the oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] spells like warriors        do.              Thats about the only differance. I think your gear is the reason you are being thrown out not the class.</div> <div>           Dps, yea we just got shafted on AAs, whereas theygot uber ones.</div> <div> </div> <div>          I will say it again, I think our class is fine. Our dps a little subpar? Maybe.</div> <blockquote><hr>madhatr wrote:<div></div> <p>I have Wisdon line 44881 and Max melee crit with 1 point just tossed somewhere, So I am no way AA set up for MAX DPS, but i watch all the debuffs on the mobs to cast my nukes to get the best effect. Consecrate is our best DPS during multi mob encounters, cant find it master I would porb go broke buying it.  And our Dot debuff that nukes mobs for every debuff we have is very fun.  I dont have a fabled 2 hander and i can get 600 dps in  MT group with dirg buffs, i out parse lazy scouts and i out heal parse lazy healers, So i am the bench mark for the raid if i show up on the dps parse to often scouts start getting yelled at and if im #3 on the heal parse healers get a little talking to.  </p> <p>But you are right most guilds dont need paladins, more then not they have 2 realy good paladins and anymore would be over kill, I Wish SOE would broadcast the class break down Paladins would be number 1 or in the top 5.  And if you think about it more then 1 plate tank per raid group is over kill. Face it tanks are tanks we arnt realy needed for raids unless to absorb hate from casters and our DPS will allways fall behind anyother class, cept templers =P</p><hr></blockquote>Some interesting things being stated here and I'm not so sure all of it is helping the original poster. Just because you have great gear and your standing mit is 5300, doesnt mean that your on par with guards and zerks. Gear is incredibly important, I agree, but it doesnt make a class, it makes a player. A guard or zerk with the same gear will have more mit no matter what with their short term mit buffs. The other thing they have an advantage over us in is their 10 sec invulnerability spells which can save raids better than one of our dinky touch spells or our half [Removed for Content] invulnerability AA (which I do have speced <span>:smileysad:</span>). Yes, I agree that our heals and ward is our bread and butter because it gives us another way to mitigate the damage being dealt to us but as long as we can be interrupted casting those spells in mid combat, we have a major disadvantage. It's not to say that we CANT tank, cause we sure can. I tank raids and my gear is not as great as most of these guys (think around 5k mit self buffed). But I have to work harder to tank the same mobs.Also, my guild runs 2-3 Paladin every raid and we do just fine. Paladin bring many things to a raid, were the swiss army knife of fighter classes! As madhatr stated, we can dps on raids. 600 dps is respectable for any fighter class including brawlers and our buddies the SKs. I've tooled around with it myself and in Halls and Lyceum have topped over 800 dps consistently with 44541 str line, max melee crits, and like 4 points in spell crits. Now, I'll agree our AAs suck... but you can use them to good effect and they can give us a slight edge against some raid mobs. As far as healing goes.... if i spam wards and heals on the MT (just make sure you have a ready supply of hearts and woodchips) and throw in group heals, I can hit top 5 heal parse even if the healers arent being lazy. Yes, our wards overwrite each other but with an epic mob there usually isnt a problem (on named that is). And as far as seeing plate tanks as a waste on raids, I completely disagree. Just recently our intercept line has taken mit into consideration. That also means that we have an extra way of ghetto healing the MT, which works great cause we can either self ward or just heal what dmg we take from it to a greater effect than other tanks. In any case, yes we could use a little extra mit either with short term buffs or AAs but, you have to realize we can do what warriors do and then some. It's just a little different on our end because we have to cast spells during combat to be effective. We're great at adding heals, dps, or whatever a guild needs but most guilds will not look at that. If you explain to someone in recruitment in a raiding guild what you learn from this post and use it to great effect in raids, you shouldn't have any trouble finding a cozy raiding guild.

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <P>Ask any healer about how difficult it is to heal a Paladin over a Guardian or Berserker.</P> <P>They can give you the most unbiased opinion.</P> <P> </P> <P>W</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yep...just did that. They all said, given equal quality gear, it's no more difficult than healing any other class.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not to be mean, but you said you dont raid.</P> <P>I agree, Paladins in a 1-group setup are perfectly fine.  The problem is that they do not scale well to Epic, raid encounters.</P> <P>W</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That doesn't mean I don't know anyone that DOES raid!   /bonk

[motx]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nevarer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> motx wrote:<BR> <P>I was not thrown out of a guild, just about impossible to find a raiding guild looking to take pali's. Just curious, seeing that you 2 are pretty much the high of the highend, what does your avoidance sit at?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>about 48-49% somewhere in that range ( im not logged into say exactly ) and avoidance is only big for brawlers. my mit sits around 5400ish depending on what im tanking I switch in a few things. Wouldnt worry about Avoid. MIT is king for plate.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>   Just seeing that tells me how much we are missin, most berzerkers and guadrians run 10% more right off the bat, making you take 20% more damage, and it just goes up from there.....</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Wulfborne]

<div><blockquote><hr>motx wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Nevarer wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> motx wrote: <div></div> <p>I was not thrown out of a guild, just about impossible to find a raiding guild looking to take pali's. Just curious, seeing that you 2 are pretty much the high of the highend, what does your avoidance sit at?</p> <hr> </blockquote>about 48-49% somewhere in that range ( im not logged into say exactly ) and avoidance is only big for brawlers. my mit sits around 5400ish depending on what im tanking I switch in a few things. Wouldnt worry about Avoid. MIT is king for plate. <hr> </blockquote> <p>   Just seeing that tells me how much we are missin, most berzerkers and guadrians run 10% more right off the bat, making you take 20% more damage, and it just goes up from there.....</p> <hr></blockquote>Actually I run about 54% with my single target buff that adds to my defense... so they aren't much different than we are.~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</div>

[khufure]

Mitigation > HP > Avoidance<div></div>

[Aamad]

Guardians might I don't think zerkers are 10% higher, they don't have the same degree of avoidance buffage. Raidbuffed avoidance usually isnt that wildly different from tank to tank anyway, unless you are a brawler.....if a few %'s of avoidance actually meant anything anyway to a plate tank I could see this complaint having any importance, but it doesn't.<div></div>

[Anariale]

<P>Mitigation is everything... that and the "Oh craps" that the tanks get to survive sticky situations.</P> <P> </P> <P>Straight up, I couldnt tank Chel'Drak without Tower of Stone and its short re-use timer.</P>