Ok, I need some serious DPS Help

[Kaleyen]

I know people hate parses, but that's what I have to go by.My AA lines are as follows...STA 4-4-8-0INT 4-4-1-0Which means for INT I have the Spell Crits and just getting into the heal crits.  Using the Sword of Pain (Fabled level 68 has a 98.5 Damage Rating I believe) have my Offensive Stance at Adept III and in raids (On a PvP server so don't have any "evil" classes) I don't even break 400 DPS.  The Zerker MT (usually have only 1 zerker) and the Monks are breaking 550+ on every encounter.  Will going down the AGI line be my savior?  Or do I need to do something else...Oh and I'm usually in the MT group (to give pledge to the MT) and I have self haste of 22% (Gauntlets of Glorious Speed).<div></div>

[Anariale]

<DIV> <DIV>Straight up, your 2hander sucks.  Its probably the worst fabled 2hander in the game.  Replace it.  Personally, Id drop the Int line entirely since your Int is most likely nowhere near cap (especially in a MT group), and because of that, the damage/time efficiency of your Spells (Judgement and Conviction) are just flat abysmal.  Melee is where youre going to see your damage output.  Focus on that.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was:</DIV> <DIV>STR 4-4-4-4-8 (The top tier here is a flat 10% increase in threat, damage and healing output.)</DIV> <DIV>STA 4-4-5-4-8</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I liked DA because its essentially "I win" for 10 seconds... and if you have to pick up aggro at any point, its flat necessary for the healers to transition over.  If youre 100% against getting DA (bad decision), then cap out melee crit chance as it works on all of your CA's and base melee (which is a poopy-ton more damage than the crappy Paladin DD's).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This all being said... your DPS will always suck as a Paladin, with the sole exception of VERY large in encounter fights (so you can maximize Brimstone).  Still, when a Berserker could be doing 1200-1800 DPS, or a Guardian is doing 1200 DPS in defensive stance... youre going to be doing 800-1000 DPS.  Paladins just cannot compete DPS wise... its like telling a Troubadour to do the damage of a Wizard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:10 AM</span>

[Kaleyen]

Well I'm on one of the newer servers, so this 2 hander that I have is one of the best in game, I know it is on Qeynos side.  So I won't even be using my DKP on a 2-hander if one drops...much needed armor/jewelry.Ok so for Raiding (also grouping when I'm not the MT) the STR > INT for DPS? Just want to make sure I have everything clear on that end.<font color="#ffff00">"Still, when a Berserker could be doing 1200-1800 DPS, or a Guardian is doing 1200 DPS in defensive stance... youre going to be doing 800-1000 DPS.  Paladins just cannot compete DPS wise... its like telling a Troubadour to do the damage of a Wizard."<font color="#ffffff">I don't feel that's a very good analogy(sp?), because personally I don't feel (and not trying to start a whine thread or a war or anything) but warriors in defensive stance using a 1 handed weapon shouldn't be out DPS'ing a Crusader in offensive stance using a two hander.  It just doesn't register in my brain that it's acceptable.</font></font><div></div>

[MeridianR]

The best DPS line is subjective, but Int is a part of it.  Int doesn't just crit Refusal / Hallowed Judgement, it crits all of our AE's (except Doom Judgement), and all of our procs....including any weapon procs that we have.<div></div>

[Anariale]

<DIV>76% Double-attack ftw</DIV> <DIV>Not to mention Guardians have 4(?) 1K damage CA's that never miss.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note that:</DIV> <DIV>1)  +/- Skills does next to nothing on yellow con mobs</DIV> <DIV>2)  Paladin Offensive stance adds Str and Int... youre already overcapped on Str, and your Int is so far behind that it doesnt matter if youre adding 150.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is a portion of last night's parse of all trash from Lyceum last night (1hr, 15 minutes for full clear of zone, IIRC)</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Normack -- DAMAGE1217.91 -- EXTDPS 1213.48 -- CRITS 1208 -- HEALED -- 15063 -- Monk<BR>Darton -- DAMAGE975.06 -- EXTDPS 973.73 -- CRITS 670 -- HEALED -- 13723 -- Guardian<BR>Thunderfoot -- DAMAGE877.14 -- EXTDPS 873.16 -- CRITS 968 -- HEALED -- 9244 -- Bruiser<BR>Dujoaki -- DAMAGE493.27 -- EXTDPS 488.12 -- CRITS 379 -- HEALED -- 87801 -- Paladin<BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Granted, this is a new Paladin, who needs gear and a bit more experience under his belt, but this is really what you should come to expect.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:33 AM</span>

[MeridianR]

As for the other AA lines - DA is 'decent' but 10 secs and the 50% HP cap thing makes it just that, decent.  Other then that Max stamina, melee crits and hp is nice.Idiolic Axe is meh, the 10% passive hate isn't bad at all, but it is only good for tanking, it doesn't help anything else out at all.  Spell Crits, helps tanking, and dps.Strength overall is just a weak line compared to Int....the haste isn't bad at all, but Spell Crit's is better....I had both for a couple months each and noticed a much bigger advantage to using Int over Str.Comparing Warrior dps to Crusader dps is also a moot point, once the buckler line gets fixed (and it will, there is no way Zerkers should be T1 dps)<div></div>

[Anariale]

<P>Im not talking about passive hategain.  Im talking about the last ability that reduces all reuse timers by 10%.</P> <P><EM>(and it will, there is no way Zerkers should be T1 dps)<BR></EM>Berserkers arent doing T1 DPS.  If you think they are, then your other DPS classes are slacking.</P> <P>W</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:32 AM</span>

[Kaleyen]

Thanks Anariale for that parse, our raid force doesn't have the luxary of having any FP classes so Monks/Rangers/Warriors live on the top end of our parses.And how does the Paladin community feel about this as a whole?  I mean about the whole Warrior's in Def stance using a 1 hander out DPS'ing us.  Cause to me I'm not too happy about it, but maybe I'm in the wrong here in feeling that way.<div></div>

[Anariale]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote:<BR>Thanks Anariale for that parse, our raid force doesn't have the luxary of having any FP classes so Monks/Rangers/Warriors live on the top end of our parses.<BR><BR>And how does the Paladin community feel about this as a whole?  I mean about the whole Warrior's in Def stance using a 1 hander out DPS'ing us.  Cause to me I'm not too happy about it, but maybe I'm in the wrong here in feeling that way.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/em points to sig</P> <P>There is a reason Wyrd is retired.  Paladins really just suck right now.  They overcap in all the wrong places (Str, Defense) and suffer heavily in other places (Mitigation).  The class is just flat sub-par.  Thing is, I wouldnt mind the lower DPS if our tanking skills were on par with Warriors, but they arent... and odds are, they never will be.  I was fortunate enough to inherit a Guardian to top off.</P> <P>Unless you just LOVE your Paladin... or simply cannot stomach leveling a new toon... Id strongly reccomend re-rolling to a better fighter class.  Sorry, thats just my honest opinion =(</P> <P>W</P><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:36 AM</span>

[Ai yo]

<P>Hi,</P> <P>I have sta aa for , 5,4,4,8 & wis 4,4,4,4 & int 4 4 4 </P> <P>& in raids i always does abt 500++ dps my top is 1.5k tho.</P> <P>I think the crits damage helps alot in our dps in offensive with the shadow axe 1h i did mostly 600-750dps.</P> <P>Hope this helps...</P>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div> <div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote>Unless you just LOVE your Paladin... or simply cannot stomach leveling a new toon... Id strongly reccomend re-rolling to a better fighter class.  Sorry, thats just my honest opinion =( <p>W</p><hr></blockquote>I was actually going to reroll as a Zerker but leveling on a PvP server is just way different then leveling on a PvE server.  So I don't see that happening.</div>

[dminkey]

You're looking at a parse where the paladin "<font size="2">is a new Paladin, who needs gear and a bit more experience under his belt", did some healing over that 1 hour, and who obviously isn't geared or AP'd (low crit rate) for dps and you are trying to use those numbers to tell paladins thats what they should expect.  Nice.</font><div></div>

[Caetrel]

<div></div>The problem isn't your AA's or your weapon, it's the inability to cap dps and haste mods in an MT group, especially the dps mod.   As silly as it sounds, get an acrylia strength ring the proc will go off alot and gives like 26% dps.   Also the agility ring does haste I think. If you have an Inquis or Coercer in group get some dps mod loving.   Also a zerker MT will help you do more dps via berserk procs for 28% haste and dps.  Dirge in the MT group will help you much as well. There are potions for INT too that do like 60ish which helps alot. Basically, with little or no dps and haste you are going to have a hard if not impossible time hitting 600-1k dps.   edited to add: throwing your AOE taunt for divine debuff will help a bit, get it in as early as you can without pulling aggro and keep it on.  This might be an obvious thing but thought I'd mention it. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:50 AM</span>

[MeridianR]

From taking a look at the first parse you had, there are Zerkers doing more then anyone else in your raid....I believe 1.3 was the highest someone parsed for you..As for us, as stated before we do not have a Zerker, since he is an alt of one of our Conjurors'.....but Zerkers are broken due to the buckler AA (as well as Guardians), to think they aren't is just trying to believe a Warrior should be doing that amount of dps...and our dps (as a Guild) is doing pretty good, for not having a Necro and our new Assassin recently betraying (was a Ranger).  Our parses are owned by Rogues (which is another mistake in my opinion, but meh what can I say)<div></div>

[Caetrel]

Anyone hitting over 20k raid dps on yellow epics?  Not every now and then, but consistently?   Just a curiosity... <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Caetrel wrote:Anyone hitting over 20k raid dps on yellow epics?  Not every now and then, but consistently?   Just a curiosity... <div></div><hr></blockquote>About 4 times in a row last night in HoS.....one of our Swashies was just totally tearing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up</div>

[Anariale]

<DIV>Phov,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mobs didnt last long enough to get in the 2nd round of big hits, which makes DPS numbers look higher.  Again, full clear on the zone in 1hr 15 minutes.  Thats pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still, youre right, I miss our Zerker, he was moving over the weekend.  Id be really interested to see what DPS he would have parsed in there, esp with all the AE fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now...</DIV> <DIV>As for not having 100% DPS mod in a MT group... Dirge + Coercer = 100% DPS Mod.  You should have it in a MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for not knowing what a Paladin can parse... Wyrd is one of the best geared Paladins on Permafrost.  I know exactly what a Paladin can parse.  I can fall asleep on the Guardian and do more DPS than a Paladin.  Granted, maybe having the Spell Crits really makes the difference and I just dont know... meh, Id still rather have DA and the 10% Timer Reductions since they allow for a more robust class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>dminkey wrote:You're looking at a parse where the paladin "<font size="2">is a new Paladin, who needs gear and a bit more experience under his belt", did some healing over that 1 hour, and who obviously isn't geared or AP'd (low crit rate) for dps and you are trying to use those numbers to tell paladins thats what they should expect.  Nice.</font><div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm not basing anything off of that, I'm basing myself off of my raid parses....or my lack thereof parse.  In a raid I'm trying to utlize everything I can, and contributing to the damage is a key factor that's what I want to help out with.  Sure I toss out my LoH and a ward here and there and a few rez's.</div>

[dminkey]

"Granted, maybe having the Spell Crits really makes the difference and I just dont know..."Bingo, you just said it.<div></div>

[Caetrel]

<hr size="2" width="100%">As for not having 100% DPS mod in a MT group... Dirge + Coercer = 100% DPS Mod. <hr size="2" width="100%">I don't know about that if you've got a pally in there?  He's prolly taking one of their spots. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div> <div>Phov,</div> <div> </div> <div>Mobs didnt last long enough to get in the 2nd round of big hits, which makes DPS numbers look higher.  Again, full clear on the zone in 1hr 15 minutes.  Thats pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</div> <div> </div> <div>Still, youre right, I miss our Zerker, he was moving over the weekend.  Id be really interested to see what DPS he would have parsed in there, esp with all the AE fights.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Now...</div> <div>As for not having 100% DPS mod in a MT group... Dirge + Coercer = 100% DPS Mod.  You should have it in a MT group.</div> <div> </div> <div>As for not knowing what a Paladin can parse... Wyrd is one of the best geared Paladins on Permafrost.  I know exactly what a Paladin can parse.  I can fall asleep on the Guardian and do more DPS than a Paladin.  Granted, maybe having the Spell Crits really makes the difference and I just dont know... meh, Id still rather have DA and the 10% Timer Reductions since they allow for a more robust class.</div> <div> </div> <div>W</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Zerkers right now are so own, it isn't even funny....lol...and yes I agree the dps mod is key to parsing, I prefer Bruiser + Coercer, but to each there own.....plus a Bruiser for Amends is sick in an OT group.The Spell Crits is indeed critical (ironic eh...lol) to max dps for a Crusader, granted it probably helps a SK out more then us, but with enough proc buffs Paladins can do good dps....  Again granted getting said proc buffs isn't the easiest, but if you can it helps a ton.A fun little OT group is:  (This isn't perfect, and isn't all the time, but it's fun none the less)-- Paladin-- Bruiser-- Templar-- Defiler-- Assassin-- CoercerAwesome hate (actually probably too much with Amends on a Bruiser), get apply poison from the Assassin, Impetus from the Coercer and the DPS mod from Bruisers.Melee Crits + DPS mod + Some proc buffs = all around fun group that can OT and DPS....</div>

[MeridianR]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Caetrel wrote:<hr size="2" width="100%">As for not having 100% DPS mod in a MT group... Dirge + Coercer = 100% DPS Mod. <hr size="2" width="100%">I don't know about that if you've got a pally in there?  He's prolly taking one of their spots. <div></div><hr></blockquote>No offensve to anyone still using a Pally in the MT group, but we do not belong there anymore.  That was T6, and the overuse of orange mobs.Coercer with Impetus M1 = 74% DPS Mod, add in a Bruiser or Dirge and get close to (if not maxed out) +dps mod.On the haste front (which I am not a big fan of, since DPS >>>> Haste) an Illusionist + Deathtoll Reward or Strength AA = near maxed....or add a Monk.</div><p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 AM</span>

[Kaleyen]

Keep in mind that not everyone here is on a PvE server and thus the classes are cut in half.  Also keep in mind that some of us are on Venekor (one of the newest servers) and thus our MT's don't hit the Mit cap because we're only geared with KoS instance gear plus some of us who have done the Claymore Quest.So right now, for us that extra mit from a Pally is needed and yes I do take the spot of an illusionist in the MT group.  98% of the 60+ Mystics have gone Exile or Betrayed leaving 1 that I can think of (maybe there's 2) 60+ Qeynos Mystic.  So Qeynos side on Venekor is extremely limited on the classes that we can raid with.<div></div>

[Caetrel]

<hr size="2" width="100%">No offensve to anyone still using a Pally in the MT group, but we do not belong there anymore. <hr size="2" width="100%">Yah I have to agree.  I think the OP's problem is that he is usually in the MT group though.  It's hard to say how people are geared  on a new PVP server, they might need that 425 mit for the MT to survive. To the OP:  If your RL is really deadset on having extra mit in the MT group get them to put a Conj in your place lol.  Geotic Seal is close to the same mit and is groupwide. Pledging the MT is really antequated...maybe if there is a level cap raise with an upgrade and orange mobs to deal with....it would become a useful option again. <div></div>

[Anariale]

<P>Not to give away too much, but our MT/OT groups are:</P> <P><U>MT Group</U> (100% DPS Mod, ~50% Haste Mod + Cacophany of Blades)<BR>Guardian<BR>Monk<BR>Coercer<BR>Dirge<BR>Templar<BR>Defiler</P> <P><U>OT Group</U> (50% DPS Mod, 23% Haste + Rage and Agi/Str Rings)<BR>Berserker<BR>Crusader<BR>Dirge<BR>Conjuror<BR>Inquisitor<BR>Mystic</P> <P> </P> <P>Again, I just have a very hard time believing a Tanking Paladin gets any benefit out of heal cris since their Int is going to be very far from Cap.  If your Int is mid 300's... thats not "good", and if your Int is over 300, Im guessing your selfbuffed Mit isnt 5100+ and your selfbuffed Hits arent 7.5K+.  Both key when looking at tanking abilities.</P> <P> </P>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Caetrel wrote:<hr size="2" width="100%">No offensve to anyone still using a Pally in the MT group, but we do not belong there anymore. <hr size="2" width="100%">Yah I have to agree.  I think the OP's problem is that he is usually in the MT group though.  It's hard to say how people are geared  on a new PVP server, they might need that 425 mit for the MT to survive. To the OP:  If your RL is really deadset on having extra mit in the MT group get them to put a Conj in your place lol.  Geotic Seal is close to the same mit and is groupwide. Pledging the MT is really antequated...maybe if there is a level cap raise with an upgrade and orange mobs to deal with....it would become a useful option again. <div></div><hr></blockquote>We do have a Conj + Pally in the MT group.</div>

[Anariale]

<P>And no Coercer since youre Good on PvP = Ouch</P> <P> </P> <P>Life is going to be hard doing T7 raids without one... IMHO.</P>

[Kaleyen]

Heck, if we could find a Mystic that doesn't go Exile or Betray by the time they hit 65 we should be sitting pretty good.<div></div>

[Caetrel]

<hr size="2" width="100%"> Keep in mind that not everyone here is on a PvE server and thus the classes are cut in half <hr size="2" width="100%">Wow, that just hit me like a truck...no Inquis, no Coercer for j00! So your MT group is prolly Guard/ Pally/ Temp/ Warden/ Mystic/ Dirge? <div></div>

[Kaleyen]

Last night when we did labs it was...ZerkerPally (me)DirgeFuryTemplarConjWe only had one templar, no mystics, no guardians, no wardens but like 8 furies.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div><p>Again, I just have a very hard time believing a Tanking Paladin gets any benefit out of heal cris since their Int is going to be very far from Cap.  If your Int is mid 300's... thats not "good", and if your Int is over 300, Im guessing your selfbuffed Mit isnt 5100+ and your selfbuffed Hits arent 7.5K+.  Both key when looking at tanking abilities.</p> <hr></blockquote>Probably not to me, but:Self buffed MIt > 5100 - CheckSelf buffed Hp > 8500 - Check  (not 7500)Self buffed Int > 300 - depends, but probably not when in defensive stance <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  - though depending on supporting classes then yes it is possible.</div>

[MeridianR]

...and yeah PvP is a totally different animal, which I am sorry that I can't help with <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Kaleyen]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:...and yeah PvP is a totally different animal, which I am sorry that I can't help with <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah, thus the reason why the post, cause there aren't that many high level Paladins (who actually still play a Pally) and I need to get a few things figured out.On a side note, I did beat a warden on a 1 v 1 the other night...woooha! (for those that duel, you know exactly how much of a pain wardens are)</div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Kaleyen on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 AM</span>

[Anariale]

<P><EM>Self buffed Int > 300 - depends, but probably not when in defensive stance <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0>  - though depending on supporting classes then yes it is possible.</EM></P> <P>Right, but again we are talking about a MT Group Paladin.  There really arent a whole lot of +Int classes in a MT group.<BR>(Oh, and if your Illusionist or Coercer is actually running a +Int buff... please say it aint so)</P>

[MeridianR]

DPS Wise you are SOL with +dps mods on PvP...so umm, darn. I would think you would really need to focus on +int items and buffs then.  Haste is alright (and you would have plenty with Qeynos classes), but +dps is much better.If you are tanking, then you are really SOL, but if not then you will really need to focus on getting max str / int for the most dps you can put out.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div> <p><em>Self buffed Int > 300 - depends, but probably not when in defensive stance <img src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16">  - though depending on supporting classes then yes it is possible.</em></p> <p>Right, but again we are talking about a MT Group Paladin.  There really arent a whole lot of +Int classes in a MT group.(Oh, and if your Illusionist or Coercer is actually running a +Int buff... please say it aint so)</p><hr></blockquote>Who is talking MT group Paladin?  Seriously I gave up trying to champion the whole MT Paladin thing....I am happy with being an OT <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Are you talking DPS Paladin or Tanking Paladin, or DPS/Tanking Paladin...lolCause we can really only be one or the other <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Caetrel]

<hr size="2" width="100%"> Last night when we did labs it was... Zerker Pally (me) Dirge Fury Templar Conj <hr size="2" width="100%">Not having a shaman is a big hurt. Okay the Fury has a buff called Agitate which is a 10% proc for 50% haste and dps mod...that should be on you not the MT, as he is getting his personal zerk proc in addition to the group one he kicks out.  Plus his dps and aggro are fine without it.  Agitate lasts like 30 seconds so once you proc it the first time it's perma.  The zerk proc for 28% will be up 70%+ of the time.  The dirge gives you 26% dps or so.  These numbers are from memory and for M1. All you need to do is get Agitate on you and you should be at or near 100% in both.  Haste 22% from gear 50% from Fury 28% from zerker= 100%.  Dps 28% from zerker 50% from fury 26% from Dirge = 104% so over cap Also the Conj has a melee proc that could help you out. <div></div>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Caetrel wrote:<hr size="2" width="100%"> Last night when we did labs it was... Zerker Pally (me) Dirge Fury Templar Conj <hr size="2" width="100%">Not having a shaman is a big hurt. Okay the Fury has a buff called Agitate which is a 10% proc for 50% haste and dps mod...that should be on you not the MT, as he is getting his personal zerk proc in addition to the group one he kicks out.  Plus his dps and aggro are fine without it.  Agitate lasts like 30 seconds so once you proc it the first time it's perma.  The zerk proc for 28% will be up 70%+ of the time.  The dirge gives you 26% dps or so.  These numbers are from memory and for M1. All you need to do is get Agitate on you and you should be at or near 100% in both.  Haste 22% from gear 50% from Fury 28% from zerker= 100%.  Dps 28% from zerker 50% from fury 26% from Dirge = 104% so over cap Also the Conj has a melee proc that could help you out. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Awesome, thanks for that.</div>

[Anariale]

<P><EM>Are you talking DPS Paladin or Tanking Paladin, or DPS/Tanking Paladin...lol</EM></P> <P>Squish, just like grape</P>

[Anariale]

<P>Yeah, thats actually a good idea there.  Fury in MT group would be huge.</P> <P>Still, you want a Guardian as a MT, especially on new content for the server.  They are just a better tank.</P>

[MeridianR]

Actually Shadowknights are the premier MT in this game....<div></div>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div> <p>Yeah, thats actually a good idea there.  Fury in MT group would be huge.</p> <p>Still, you want a Guardian as a MT, especially on new content for the server.  They are just a better tank.</p><hr></blockquote>There aren't many Guardians in Qeynos anymore either.  I can think of 3 off the top of my head that are 70, one of which just went Exile.Qeynos is in a bad state once they put Betraying and Exiles into place.  I would say that a good 75% of the 65+ population left Qeynos, if not more.</div>

[Kaleyen]

<a href="http://www.venekorcore.com/dkp/listmembers.php?s=" target=_blank>Here</a> is our basic raid force, so any tips, suggestions, etc that can help me utilize the other classes buffs are more then apprieated.  I've never raided on EQ2 so I'm a raiding newb but eager to learn.<div></div>

[Loral]

<DIV>(Side note, I am on a PvE server, but we are a Qeynos-only Guild. Thus we have the same class restrictions than a PvP Qeynos Guild.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have way too many Monks and Furies to build something really efficient. And the lack of Mystic is really hurting. Ideally, you need to recruit alot more Wizards, Warlocks, Swashbucklers and Rangers. The 2 main problems I see: lack of healing variety and lack of DPS. With that said:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group1 (MT group)<BR>70 Berserker<BR>70 Fury <BR>70 Templar <BR>67 Dirge<BR>70 Illusionist <BR>70 Monk </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group2 (OT/ST group)<BR>70 Paladin </DIV> <DIV>70 Monk <BR>70 Fury <BR>70 Fury <BR>70 Illusionist <BR>67 Swashbuckler</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group3 (Maximize melee-based buffs available)<BR>70 Fury <BR>70 Monk <BR>70 Ranger <BR>70 Swashbuckler <BR>69 Monk <BR>68 Fury </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group4 (Maximize casting-based buffs available)<BR>70 Troubador <BR>70 Warlock <BR>70 Wizard <BR>70 Fury <BR>70 Conjuror<BR>70 Ranger</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This assumes no particular resistances/buffs from the Mages are needed in the MT group. This assumes your Berseker is MT-geared, and thus doesn't need extra mitigation from the Conjuror or Paladin. This assumes the Paladin or Monk in G2 is geared enough to handle OT/ST tasks. This assumes you are in trash fights, or that you are in fights that need to maximize DPS with what you have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some positions are swappable according to needs/preference. The G2 Illusionnist could swap with G4 Ranger or Conjuror for example if your G2 has enough FT and hate control. Or the G4 Conjuror for a Monk in G3... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and I left a 68 Fury home. And whip that 67Dirge to level up *wink*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, group-building is not an exact science. Go with your feelings and knowledge of your Guildmates. Someone else will post in this thread with a totally different setup that will be just as valid, for different reasons.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Loralor on <span class=date_text>08-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 AM</span>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <P>Not to give away too much, but our MT/OT groups are:</P> <P><U>MT Group</U> (100% DPS Mod, ~50% Haste Mod + Cacophany of Blades)<BR>Guardian<BR>Monk<BR>Coercer<BR>Dirge<BR>Templar<BR>Defiler</P> <P><U>OT Group</U> (50% DPS Mod, 23% Haste + Rage and Agi/Str Rings)<BR>Berserker<BR>Crusader<BR>Dirge<BR>Conjuror<BR>Inquisitor<BR>Mystic</P> <P> </P> <P>Again, I just have a very hard time believing a Tanking Paladin gets any benefit out of heal cris since their Int is going to be very far from Cap.  If your Int is mid 300's... thats not "good", and if your Int is over 300, Im guessing your selfbuffed Mit isnt 5100+ and your selfbuffed Hits arent 7.5K+.  Both key when looking at tanking abilities.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Anariale, I dont even know why you post here anymore, you have finally changed your icon to the guardian icon and instead of posting mostly positive suggestions to improve the paladin class, you use the same line of come over to the guardian side it is better.  I won't argue if you were a great paladin before the change to guardian, but quit posting the pro guardian, paladin suck routine.  It was old after the first dozen posts and it definetly doesn't get better as the post count rises.  You are sick of the paladin class, stay out of the paladin forums then if you dont have a constructive idea.  If a paladin tried the same thing on the guardian forum, he would have so many posts against him.</P> <P>I have enjoyed many of your post Anariale, but let it go man if you are continueing this bitter paladin approach.  On the quoted section of Int and healing, INT has no bearing on your healing numbers at all, all that affects healing is your healing Crit chance and your skill number in ministration.  INT is very useful in the proc damage from gear/buffs, ST and AOE spell damage.   A maxxed out heal crit helps alot on the survability of a paladin in whatever situation he is in.  Free health for the same cost of power is a good thing, especially when i see Wards with crits...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> I am not saying that paladins do not need help in certain areas, but any young and impressionable paladins will do much better looking at Meridian's view of things than Anariale's.  One of these days the Buckler AA will be "adjusted" back to where it should be, and the warrior's will be at more realistic DPS for the price of their mitigation/tanking abilities.</P> <P>For the above MT group, replace the guardian with another class tank, and i guarantee high dps numbers if that tank knows his class.   Paladin DPS is what you make of it, if you are in the above group, with max crits and the groups buffs on you, i guarantee that 400 DPS is way lower than what you will have on the parses.    You want some non MT dps numbers, try being in a group with mages and having their buffs on you while being in offense stance, mages love you for the survability you give them and you will love the procs they give you plus the int buffs they have.<BR></P>

[Anariale]

I typo'd on that section... I meant spell crits, not heal crits.Apologies.<div></div>

[dminkey]

<div><blockquote><hr>OrcSlayer96 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr></blockquote> I am not saying that paladins do not need help in certain areas, but any young and impressionable paladins will do much better looking at Meridian's view of things than Anariale's.<hr></blockquote>Some people only see the negative.  I'm not sure what happened to Anariale to make him so bitter, but I think most readers get the point.   Anariale doesn't like paladins and could never figure out a way to make himself useful while playing one.  Others here don't have that problem, why don't you move on to your "greener' pastures.</div>

[MeridianR]

<div></div>I think Anariale is just taking the more vocal stance to what a lot of us think......think about it for a second (going into negative mode for a second):Crusaders have:-- Lowest Mitigation of Plate Tanks (no +mit AA's)-- Lowest Avoid of Plate Tanks (no +parry on our Defensive stance)-- Lowest Amount of Snap aggro (we have to work to get aggro back if Rescue is done)-- Lowest Power Pool (this is wrong, and actually is due to a mis-calculation of the Wisdom stat after Strength is maxed out)-- Lowest DPS of Plate Tanks (Guardians with the double attack line can own us)  -- thinking Paladins here-- Least amount of Debuffs of plate tanks  - again thinking Paladins hereSo while the majority of us have just either stopped trying, or have come to the realization that we need to focus on what we are good at....some people are bitter over the hand we have been dealt.  I don't aggre with what Wyrd say's all the time, but he does have a point (as you can see above)<div></div><p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:22 AM</span>

[Anariale]

<P>The squeaky wheel gets the grease. </P> <P>While I could do great things on my Paladin... it took 100x the effort I put in on my Guardian.  Thats a balance issue, and if you keep saying "We are ok", the Paladin class will never change.</P> <P>If there is a problem, you have to let the Devs know... and dont bring a knife to a gun fight.</P> <P>W</P> <P> </P>

[Rocksthemic]

<blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<div></div>I think Anariale is just taking the more vocal stance to what a lot of us think......think about it for a second (going into negative mode for a second):Crusaders have:-- Lowest Mitigation of Plate Tanks (no +mit AA's)-- Lowest Avoid of Plate Tanks (no +parry on our Defensive stance)-- Lowest Amount of Snap aggro (we have to work to get aggro back if Rescue is done)-- Lowest Power Pool (this is wrong, and actually is due to a mis-calculation of the Wisdom stat after Strength is maxed out)-- Lowest DPS of Plate Tanks (Guardians with the double attack line can own us)  -- thinking Paladins here-- Least amount of Debuffs of plate tanks  - again thinking Paladins hereSo while the majority of us have just either stopped trying, or have come to the realization that we need to focus on what we are good at....some people are bitter over the hand we have been dealt.  I don't aggre with what Wyrd say's all the time, but he does have a point (as you can see above)<div></div><p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class="date_text">08-22-2006</span> <span class="time_text">08:22 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Yes, if you are playing a paladin with the intent of being an MT on raids, then you are going to be dissapointed. Even though they promised that all fighters would be able to tank anything in the beginning, I knew from the start that guardians would be the premier raid tank. I knew this from the first time I read class descriptions. Guardians class description from the start was something about "able to take physical punishment like no other" or something like that.... it's been a long time.  On the list of things Phov put out, that is one of the best summations of crusader problems I have seen. Each and every one of those things could be adressed to various degrees to make paladins on the whole MUCH happier than they are now. I believe that you could address even just a couple of them without throwing group balance out of whack.  A paladin and a guardian in equal gear will not be so far apart on mitigation as to make the paladin useless (not counting temp mit buffs, or the fact they can get 350 more mitigation from AA hehe) The avoidance gap makes a HUGE difference though. We are quite often 10% behind guardians and zerkers in avoidance, and our ability to heal doesn't even begin to make up the difference on that, even on heroic content at lvl 70. Even that 10% avoidance would help us a lot on group and raid mobs. The snap aggro, I don't think any other class even guardians and zerkers get "snap aggro" if rescue is down do they? As a matter of fact, I would argue that with sigil of heroism, we probably have some of the best snap aggro tools in the game as far as plate tanks go. The power pool thing... well we can hope they will either fix that or reduce the power cost on our wards and heals (and as soon as that happens then I'll be tackled by a group of roaming college cheerleaders looking for some lovin) Dps, well the only ones that suck worse than pallies at dps are priests (except furies lol, they can out dps most paladins on raids if they don't have to throw down any heals) But I knew going in that I wasn't going to be doing dmg to get my aggro, and never really expected to be able to do much Debuffs...you're dead on that we can't debuff much, but wrong on the lowest debuff of any plate tank. Guardians don't debuff anything on mobs if I remember correctly, and even beserkers have a very specialized skill (belly smash) which won't work on most epic mobs, and that debuff only lasts for a very short time. All in all though, a very concise list of major paladin problems and percieved problems. I think adding parry to our defense buff for crusaders would be one of the best things we could ask for. That and either making it so we could put our pledge of armament on ourselves (giving us 400 extra standing mit), or..... a temporary buff (similar to temp mitigation buffs) that would make us IMMUNE to interrupts for a period of 45 seconds (with 1 minute 30 second recast or something) so that we could take advantage of our heals and wards even while tanking raid mobs, multiple mobs, etc. Thundaarr Unrest <Nightcap><div></div>

[MeridianR]

Couple things (again this is me being negative for the sake of being negative)...Guardians get a couple nice Debuffs:-- Sever - decreases targets attack damage-- Merciless Charge - decreases targets offensive skillsNot a ton, but we get nothing (other then our AE Taunt decreasing Divine Resists)<div></div>

[Anariale]

<P>Guardians get:<BR>- DPS Debuff (20% at M1, very very nice)<BR>- Melee Skill Debuff<BR>- Magic Skill Debuff (waste, but we still get it)</P> <P>For Heroics, we also have an 8 second Daze... and since mobs dont cast, its really a stun</P> <P>Berserkers get:<BR>- Haste Debuff<BR>- Melee Skill Debuff<BR>- Focus Debuff<BR> </P> <P> </P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR>I typo'd on that section... I meant spell crits, not heal crits.<BR><BR>Apologies.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah, sorry about that Anariale, but you frustrate the heck out of me sometimes.  When i go back to older posts of yours and compare to the ones you have been posting the last few months it sometimes depresses me.  You mentioned before about the squeky wheel gets grease, it does if the devs understand the message, not when you put general statements down saying roll a guardian, dont waste your time on a paladin.   Maybe that is your solution to a fix, but others in this forum are still looking at ways to improve our class as a tank, not the premier tank, but tanking in general.  You help us best when you make posts that give us more insight to how the warrior AA run and guardian spells work.  We can use that to compare to how our spells/AA's are and modify our vision to improve our class.</P> <P>I will agree that the way that things have been especialy since KOS the warrior classes generally own us on tier 7 higher end raid content.  To say that a paladin cannot hold his own specced as a tank spec taking on adds on splitting names is not accurate at all.  As long as we have Meridian and Itoock plus several others out there, i will still strive to get our class improved.  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Kaleyen]

I can be a bit negative at times at my own class but it all stems from frustration.  I'm not asking to be T1 DPS, I was never ment to be!  But either was a warrior!<div></div>

[ChopStix]

<P> i learnt over the span of VoX server going live, i lvled my paladin to 70 and have decent gear on him..  and i can tell you from experience your not going to touch a beserker's dps.....if a beserker has went down the buckler line, and the strength line.. hes going to be putting out alot of dps, and hate..</P> <P> </P> <P>i rolled a beserker, lvl 13 now, and i can already tell a difference, solo's much easier, and the AA lines are so much better than a paladins choices...... after playing a paladin to lvl 70, and a beserker to lvl 13 i wish i would've started witha beserker, as a paladin its hard to solo an even con, a beserker will blow through one...</P> <P> </P> <P> i can also tell you now a beserker will always be more wanted in a raid than a paladin, better dps and aggro control from the get go..</P> <P> </P> <P>i'll play my paladin, for raids as i'll be the best tank in our guilds for when we start raiding, but when a beserker gets outfitted, he'll take over.. its a sure thing, unless i get some relic and or better fabled gear on my pally..</P>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>OrcSlayer96 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Anariale wrote:I typo'd on that section... I meant spell crits, not heal crits.Apologies. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Yeah, sorry about that Anariale, but you frustrate the heck out of me sometimes.  When i go back to older posts of yours and compare to the ones you have been posting the last few months it sometimes depresses me.  You mentioned before about the squeky wheel gets grease, it does if the devs understand the message, not when you put general statements down saying roll a guardian, dont waste your time on a paladin.   Maybe that is your solution to a fix, but others in this forum are still looking at ways to improve our class as a tank, not the premier tank, but tanking in general.  You help us best when you make posts that give us more insight to how the warrior AA run and guardian spells work.  We can use that to compare to how our spells/AA's are and modify our vision to improve our class.</p> <p>I will agree that the way that things have been especialy since KOS the warrior classes generally own us on tier 7 higher end raid content.  To say that a paladin cannot hold his own specced as a tank spec taking on adds on splitting names is not accurate at all.  As long as we have Meridian and Itoock plus several others out there, i will still strive to get our class improved.  </p><hr></blockquote>I've been doing in game feedback, there are countless posts on the forums about Crusaders and how broken we are and nothing has been done.  What more can we, the Crusader Community, do?  </div>

[Rocksthemic]

<blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:Couple things (again this is me being negative for the sake of being negative)...Guardians get a couple nice Debuffs:-- Sever - decreases targets attack damage-- Merciless Charge - decreases targets offensive skillsNot a ton, but we get nothing (other then our AE Taunt decreasing Divine Resists)<div></div><hr></blockquote>Hehe ok, sorry.  That is what I get for posting early in the morning when my brain is still foggy (even though that condition tends to persist throughout the day) Thundaarr Unrest <Nightcap> P.S. I think my idea for a temporary focus buff would still rock though. I have seen the idea for a % ward and everything, and while that is nifty, a temporary focus buff where we couldn't be interrupted (or have like maybe a 5% chance of being interrupted) would help us out a LOT when tanking raid mobs, no more interrupt of our heals and wards that we must spam to stay alive. <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>I guess I'll start being the squeaky wheel again. I posted on the spells, abilities, and combat arts forum. Lets see if we can get someones attention.</P> <P>I got some free time.</P>

[enjoilab]

<DIV>the easy way to get more dps on the parser is...have a conj change their pet name to your name (i was at the #1 spot on the parser everything and all the dps was getting [Removed for Content] cuz they thought it was a bug)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is our mt group for raids</DIV> <DIV>pally(me)</DIV> <DIV>guard</DIV> <DIV>temp</DIV> <DIV>mystic</DIV> <DIV>dirge</DIV> <DIV>warden</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we got up to vyemn in labs with this set up (we didnt kill vyemn yet cuz we didnt have a enchanter to mem wipe alzid prime)</DIV>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>enjoilabel wrote:<div>the easy way to get more dps on the parser is...have a conj change their pet name to your name </div><hr></blockquote>Balios, I always knew I liked your way of thinking <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Kendricke]

<blockquote><hr>enjoilabel wrote:<DIV>we got up to vyemn in labs with this set up (we didnt kill vyemn yet cuz we didnt have a enchanter to mem wipe alzid prime)</DIV><hr></blockquote>It's a completely tangential point here, but...The Legion of the White Rose is an entirely Qeynosian raid force, and therefore has no coercer...yet, we've managed to find ways to split Alzid Prime and Vyemm's without the use of "mem wipe".There's always a way. Just keep looking for creative solutions instead of relying upon the word of others.<p>Message Edited by Kendricke on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:14 PM</span>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Our pally averages 900 dps and ranges from 700-1100 dps.  He does it through AAs.</P> <P>Str: 4,4,8  Stam: 4,4,8  Int: 4,4,8</P> <P>Then grab an axe.  Have your main weapon and the axe hotkeyed on your hotbar.  Hit the axe, swing at mob to gain extra haste, hit hotkey for normal weapon again.  You'll get pretty good haste self buffed, good melee crits and good spell crits.  You'll just need a bit of haste from the raid plus dps mod to do good damage.</P>

[Kaleyen]

Ok....STA Line 4-4-8-8INT Line 4-4-6Offensive Stance Adept I + Sword of Pain (96.5 DR + 300ish Proc) and I'm struggling to hit 400 (using ACT) in any single Epic x4 mob.  Granted I'm rez'ing and warding and doing group heals now and then.  But getting over 400 while doing that shouldn't be that hard to break.<div></div>

[Kaleyen]

I can now get in the 450-650 range! Trick... Join a T7 raiding guild that's exiled and be in the same group as the assassin. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

Screw the assassin, if you are exiled, get a Coercer.....there you broke 500 dps without anything else other then Impetus <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[ChopStix]

<P>i'm not going through the aa's as mine are screwed up at the moment and i'm waiting on a free respec hopefully with the expansion coming soon..</P> <P> </P> <P>I've been consistantly raiding now for about a month, i'm also in the mt group.. beserker is MT, my devotion is a master, and pledge is at adept3, and he also likes my master heals, especially my celestial touch.. he says i play my role extremely well, and he'll always want me in his group because i know my roll...  his main statement when we started raiding was " man i wish paladins had a little more dps, you guys would be awesome for a raid"....</P> <P> Since ive plaed a paladin up to lvl 70, and ive also recently rolled a beserker on a pvp server [vox] ,my newly started beserker is now at lvl 30, i know what others are stating now.... Honestly, I wish i would have rolled a beserker to begin with better dps, better mitigation....  from playing a paladin and a beserker the beserkers dps even at lower lvls without buckler reversal is better than a paladin's, i can solo things better wit hthe beserker and the burst dps is far greater.....</P> <P> i wont retire my paladin yet, i want to see whats coming up with the expansion before i do that...</P> <P> </P> <P> What i've notice and actually concentrate on in a raid is timing my ca's and spells between auto attack's... this improved dps a bit, and also helped very little on mana usage, we as paladins still burn far to much power though.... second thing i want to try is a longer delay weapon, i havent found a good one yet ,but i will sometime..  I think paladins need a long delay weapon that hits for alot of damage, but in turn makes the damage rating bad actually, but i think this will favor a paladin because of our spell casting timers are somewhat long... just my thoughts..</P> <P>i'll be watching this thread also...</P>