Why should Paladins be put into the Main Tank group?

[Canel]

<DIV>Yeah...so I had a few ideas why a Pally would be in a MT group on a raid (Pledge of Armnament, Resolute Faith ect.) but was wondering what all you other pallys out there thought on the subject.</DIV>

[Kaleyen]

I'm always in the MT group<div></div>

[holypaladin28]

night i was in the clefts lvl 52 everyine else was 56-60 we had a monk that was lvl 59.  they let me tank the mobs.  didnt lose aggro once thats witha lvl 60 wizzy in group ans 2 swashy's  amends is great

[Rothrek]

Im usually in the second mt group for pledge of armament, we have 2 hate transfers in the MT group.<div></div>

[Zo]

Always in MT group here. PVP server though, so less choices...

[Majorminor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote:<BR>I'm always in the MT group<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>ME TOO /shrug

[Fatuus]

<DIV>There is absolutely, possitively....NO REASON to have a paladin in the MT group unless you have a weak MT. The bottom line that all high end raiding guilds understand is that mitigation is POINTLESS. I have said this before, and I will continue to say it again. The small buffs that a paladin gives to a group pale in comparison to what other classes can offer in the same situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I (as a paladin) can self buff my mitigation EASILY to almost 5500 mitigation without anyone grouped with me, and not all my armor is fabled...full fabled I could self buff to 5750ish. The moment I am grouped with a templar that has their group mit at Master I (732 group mitigation) I am already at 6200 mitigation then. 6200 is max mitigation to any level up to lvl 75. So if I can do that as a paladin...imagine how easy it is for a fairly well equiped guardian or beserker (who have group and self mitigation buffs that can keep themselves at 6500 mitigation similarly decked out AND NOT going down the aa line that gives another 320 mit on top of this total) to be at max mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What other group buffs do we bring to the MT group besides Mitigation...hmm...the 1% boost to anything a group member does...UBER! Not when compared to what a dirge and coercer can do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ohh...wait...we buff Str and Wis as well.....well a shaman would get any MT to max stat on STR and STA easily. Hmm that leaves WIS. Yea Wis is helpful...a whole 3% decrease on spell damage due to increased overall resistances.....UBER....again not when compared to a dirge and coercer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lol this leaves our paltry group buff for an 8% chance to do maybe 300 damage to a mob and X2 for undead....laughable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets face it folks....get off the (I gotta be in MT group) syndrome because we can be WAY more effective outside the MT group then in it. What the dirge does besides increasing AGI, parry, and hate gain of the MT (can you say more DPS in fight...critical if you wanna do 10k DPS in raids) is group power regen...all of these skill are way more important buffs then what the paladin can do for the MT. The coercer....he also buffs the MT AGI, provides additional divine and mental resists (both hard to get gear for) as well as the best power regen and group power management buffs in the game...ohh wait he does hate gain on MT as well....(again needed if you wanna do 10k+ DPS on raids).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The paladin has many attributes that can make it indespensible to a raid. First off we have the best rez in the game. We can do a full HP rez every minute, while not that useful for raiders who are fringe players like casters...its critical for a melee person who got caught inside the AOE zone...and if rezed any other way would cause another instant death due to lack of HP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other useful attribute we have is that we ADD dps to the raid. This added dps is most noted with hard hitting classes like Warlocks and Wizards that excel in single target damage. Parsing out any raid, you'll find your best DPSers are summoners since half their damage is done by pets...unfortunately wizards and warlocks don't have this luxery. A paladin can use his sigil of heroism to constantly PULL aggro from the casters to himself...essentially allowing them to DPS harder then they would ahve been able to before. Also amends is awesome on a warlock against group monsters. It will turn a 600 DPS warlock to a 1400 DPS warlock in a snap...because they won't have to worry too much about getting aggro...just ask any raiding warlock this fact. Our group Wis buff is also critical to these classes cause they will always have crappy resists generally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There ya go like it or not....when ya really look at it...we are worthless in the MT group. The best MT group is:<BR><BR>Guardian/Zerker (my preference guardian do to damage absorbtion abilities)</DIV> <DIV>Warden/Fury (preference to Warden)<BR>Templar/Inq (preference to Templar since Inq are best in a melee group)</DIV> <DIV>Mystic/Defiler (both are nice, Defilers have fewer cross group buffs and are often in MT group)</DIV> <DIV>Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Coercer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You need this kind of setup if you want to be serious about raids and parse around 10K + DPS on long fights. We can have or MT handle 13k+ pretty handily in this setup.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Flayedskin Guild Leader of Disciples of Destiny</DIV> <DIV>First lvl 50/60/70 Troll Paladin Worldwide</DIV>

[Asdran]

<font color="#ffff00">Canel wrote: "Why should Paladins be put into the Main Tank group?"</font>'cause its very hard to have a MT group without an MT <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[Monfar]

I want 5500 mit "easily"*cry*

[MeridianR]

<div></div>If you aren't fully fabled please explain to me the 5500 mitigation......and using a potion is not self buffed, because Elixir of Metallic Hues are no longer made, so you better have a ton of them in your guild bank.Here is guessing you are still using a CoP, and Light Chitin rings, which in fact means your HP is probably at most 8k self buffed (no potions).I am near 5200 with all fabled (except the Claymore mitigation stuff) but near 8800 HP (without a potion)** Edit ** - Just looked at your gear and yep I was right...and you went Str/Wisdom as your lines...  /shrug if you have 7500 HP self buffed (again no potion) I would be amazed.<div></div><p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class=date_text>08-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 AM</span>

[MeridianR]

...but to answer the question, there is no need for a Paladin in the MT group, we do good in a secondary tank group setup around us....TemplarDefilerDirgeCoercerSwashie / AssassinPaladin<div></div>

[Caetrel]

I would put this issue into perspective.  Someone mentioned the only reason to put a pally in is if you have a weak MT.  Well, what if you do have a weak MT?  What if your guild is new to raiding, or what if you are doing new content with a level cap raise as was the case when DoF and KoS came out? In many cases strat and raid make-up for an inexperienced or undergeared guild are necessarily different than for a more seasoned group.    If your MT has at best 4700 mit and all of his and the healers buffs are only ad3, then yah that pledge is gonna help.  In the grand scheme a pally brings little to the MT group, but I wouldn't dismiss it for everyone's situation.  It would be better to determine the bare basics you need for tank survivability/ aggro/ regen and build from there.  You really need to get at least 12k health, 6k perma mit, hate control to accomodate 10-12k dps and at least one regen toon to be able to deal with most stuff.  As a stepping stone it's not a bad choice.   Ideally you want a dirge and coercer (or sub an assasin for one of the two if needed) but if your tanks goes down like a wet paper bag you've got to address the problem somehow.    I am not endorsing pledging the MT as an endgame strat lol but it will be useful for some.  You gotta consider the realtivity of things.  It's like somebody asking for strat on an easy fight like the Doom triad guys in labs.  I don't even remember what strat you need- our strat is waste the Ravager in 20 seconds- but if you don't know/ don't have the gear you need a good strat.  So what applies to some does not apply to others. <div></div>

[Caetrel]

Since I'm in the business of giving bad advice use an SK not a pally, they buff STR/STA instead of STR/WIS.  <div></div>

[RaistNA]

Yep im never in the MT group.  Mostly cause our MT doesnt need the extra miti, so we use as much hate modders on him as we can.  Him, coerc, dirge, temp, defiler, warden.  Im always either in offtank group, or with some big dps for amends. <div></div>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> If you aren't fully fabled please explain to me the 5500 mitigation......and using a potion is not self buffed, because Elixir of Metallic Hues are no longer made, so you better have a ton of them in your guild bank.<BR><BR>Here is guessing you are still using a CoP, and Light Chitin rings, which in fact means your HP is probably at most 8k self buffed (no potions).<BR><BR>I am near 5200 with all fabled (except the Claymore mitigation stuff) but near 8800 HP (without a potion)<BR><BR><BR>** Edit ** - Just looked at your gear and yep I was right...and you went Str/Wisdom as your lines...  /shrug if you have 7500 HP self buffed (again no potion) I would be amazed.<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by MeridianR on <SPAN class=date_text>08-20-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:24 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Depends on the situation, If I wanted pure mitigation I would where necklace of might which adds another 140 mit and use a metalic hues potion to get the difference. Guess its easy for me since I have about 80 potions made since I have an alt as a 70 alchey!</P> <P>HP wise...yea I went Str and Wis to allow me to tank better. I didn't go down the Int and Sta lines if I just wanted to be DPS. Was a personal choice I made. With full mit gear on I am around 7100 HP (no potion) but with my normal raiding resist gear on (more fabled you don't see) I cap near 7400 HP no potion.<BR></P>

[Kaleyen]

I too am on a PvP server so the class choices are limited, thus why I'm in the MT group.<div></div>

[dminkey]

I'm the MT, I'd hope they'd let me in<div></div>

[Anariale]

Id reccomend with justifying a Paladin on the raid at all before moving to the MT group...

[Rocksthemic]

<blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div>Id reccomend with justifying a Paladin on the raid at all before moving to the MT group...<hr></blockquote> That has been done before. I think Paladins justify thier existance in raids as offtanks, emergency rezzers when someone dies in AE range, and for amends allowing someone else to do more DPS. As far as being in MT group, the other poster was right about a tank that is not geared as well needing a boost. Conjurors are nice for mitigation in MT group as well, because they provide group wide mitigation. The best MT group that I have found though is this.... Guardian, Defiler, Templar, Dirge, Coercer, Monk. The mitigation is ALWAYS going to be important, but if you have a well geared tank, and are comin close to capping mitigation, then avoidance becomes one of the best ways to increase your tanking ability. The buff that allows another person to use your avoidance to dodge melee hits is awesome. Monk with 80% avoidance, and giving a tank 49% chance to use that avoidance, that equals out to roughly 38% more avoidance. This is in effect even if your tanks mitigation is debuffed to hell. And as we all know a hit avoided is a hit 100% mitigated. If your guardian has approx. 60% avoidance with dirge in his group, and you're adding roughly 38% on top of that.... he's getting to almost 98% effective avoidance against lvl 70 mobs. I find warden in the MT group isn't that effective because they don't bring many buffs that increase a tanks effectiveness. I could be wrong and be missing some great thing they bring to the group, but none that I know of. The only time we put warden in MT group is if we're fighting mobs with an extreme heat or cold AE and need the resists group wide. (like the trash mobs on the way to Talendor/Gorenaire) Thundaarr Unrest <Nightcap><div></div>

[Crib92]

<DIV>Personally, I like to be in the MT group when I'm tanking.  But hey, that's just me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rocksthemic wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> Id reccomend with justifying a Paladin on the raid at all before moving to the MT group...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That has been done before. I think Paladins justify thier existance in raids as offtanks, emergency rezzers when someone dies in AE range, and for amends allowing someone else to do more DPS.<BR><BR>As far as being in MT group, the other poster was right about a tank that is not geared as well needing a boost. Conjurors are nice for mitigation in MT group as well, because they provide group wide mitigation. <BR><BR>The best MT group that I have found though is this.... Guardian, Defiler, Templar, Dirge, Coercer, Monk.<BR><BR>The mitigation is ALWAYS going to be important, but if you have a well geared tank, and are comin close to capping mitigation, then avoidance becomes one of the best ways to increase your tanking ability. The buff that allows another person to use your avoidance to dodge melee hits is awesome. Monk with 80% avoidance, and giving a tank 49% chance to use that avoidance, that equals out to roughly 38% more avoidance. This is in effect even if your tanks mitigation is debuffed to hell. And as we all know a hit avoided is a hit 100% mitigated. If your guardian has approx. 60% avoidance with dirge in his group, and you're adding roughly 38% on top of that.... he's getting to almost 98% effective avoidance against lvl 70 mobs.<BR><BR>I find warden in the MT group isn't that effective because they don't bring many buffs that increase a tanks effectiveness. I could be wrong and be missing some great thing they bring to the group, but none that I know of. The only time we put warden in MT group is if we're fighting mobs with an extreme heat or cold AE and need the resists group wide. (like the trash mobs on the way to Talendor/Gorenaire)<BR><BR><BR>Thundaarr<BR>Unrest<BR><Nightcap><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wardens are the most efficient healers per power cost in game. They excel at group heals per power and burst healing (don't forget about the tree everyone loves to hate). While you are correct that some raiding guilds have taken the warden out of the mix on easier mobs, on tough fights that require long term healing power they are always in MT group. One factor you are forgeting about the MT group is that one of the ways guardians and beserkers KEEP hate is by GETTING hit...the fewer times they are hit the less aggro they will keep on other mobs they don't have targeted.

[Boli32]

<div><blockquote><hr>Fatuus wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Rocksthemic wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Anariale wrote: <div></div>Id reccomend with justifying a Paladin on the raid at all before moving to the MT group... <hr> </blockquote>That has been done before. I think Paladins justify thier existance in raids as offtanks, emergency rezzers when someone dies in AE range, and for amends allowing someone else to do more DPS.As far as being in MT group, the other poster was right about a tank that is not geared as well needing a boost. Conjurors are nice for mitigation in MT group as well, because they provide group wide mitigation. The best MT group that I have found though is this.... Guardian, Defiler, Templar, Dirge, Coercer, Monk.The mitigation is ALWAYS going to be important, but if you have a well geared tank, and are comin close to capping mitigation, then avoidance becomes one of the best ways to increase your tanking ability. The buff that allows another person to use your avoidance to dodge melee hits is awesome. Monk with 80% avoidance, and giving a tank 49% chance to use that avoidance, that equals out to roughly 38% more avoidance. This is in effect even if your tanks mitigation is debuffed to hell. And as we all know a hit avoided is a hit 100% mitigated. If your guardian has approx. 60% avoidance with dirge in his group, and you're adding roughly 38% on top of that.... he's getting to almost 98% effective avoidance against lvl 70 mobs.I find warden in the MT group isn't that effective because they don't bring many buffs that increase a tanks effectiveness. I could be wrong and be missing some great thing they bring to the group, but none that I know of. The only time we put warden in MT group is if we're fighting mobs with an extreme heat or cold AE and need the resists group wide. (like the trash mobs on the way to Talendor/Gorenaire)ThundaarrUnrest<Nightcap> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Wardens are the most efficient healers per power cost in game. They excel at group heals per power and burst healing (don't forget about the tree everyone loves to hate). While you are correct that some raiding guilds have taken the warden out of the mix on easier mobs, on tough fights that require long term healing power they are always in MT group. One factor you are forgeting about the MT group is that one of the ways guardians and beserkers KEEP hate is by GETTING hit...the fewer times they are hit the less aggro they will keep on other mobs they don't have targeted.<hr></blockquote>Inquistors have the best power/heal ratio... but wardens have the best group healing ratio (closely followed by furys unless you count hibernation, but that takes timing and luck)</div>

[MeridianR]

Just to clarify, if we are the MT...then we belong in the dps group....errr I mean the MT group.As to whether or not we belong on a raid, well that is debatable.  I do not see a need for more then 1 Crusader in an end game raid guild, and personally I think we are much better then SK's, so by default we get in.  There is always a need for an OT in case things get flakey, and we can do that pretty well.<div></div>

[Anariale]

<P><EM>There is always a need for an OT in case things get flakey, and we can do that pretty well.<BR><BR></EM>Berserkers do it better!</P> <P>That being said, we typically run with one Crusader on raids.  Id rather have an SK for the debuffs, but if it HAS to be a Paladin... so be it.</P> <P>Oh, and 60% Avoidance + 38% Avoidance from a Monk is a total of 75% avoidance, which is great against a yellow con mob, but against an orange con mob, it doesnt really matter.  Still, its nice to throw Moderate on the Monk so they can bank out 1500 DPS and not take aggro.</P> <P>W</P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div> <p><em>There is always a need for an OT in case things get flakey, and we can do that pretty well.</em>Berserkers do it better!</p> <p>That being said, we typically run with one Crusader on raids.  Id rather have an SK for the debuffs, but if it HAS to be a Paladin... so be it.</p> <p>Oh, and 60% Avoidance + 38% Avoidance from a Monk is a total of 75% avoidance, which is great against a yellow con mob, but against an orange con mob, it doesnt really matter.  Still, its nice to throw Moderate on the Monk so they can bank out 1500 DPS and not take aggro.</p> <p>W</p><hr></blockquote>Yes Zerkers can do it better, but our's is an alt so they deal with me doing it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  The only worthwhile debuff a SK has is Despoil, and with 2 Brigands there isn't much use for it.  (and yes I know the duration compared to Brig debuffs as well...lol)</div>

[So]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> boli wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fatuus wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>Wardens are the most efficient healers per power cost in game. They excel at group heals per power and burst healing (don't forget about the tree everyone loves to hate). While you are correct that some raiding guilds have taken the warden out of the mix on easier mobs, on tough fights that require long term healing power they are always in MT group. One factor you are forgeting about the MT group is that one of the ways guardians and beserkers KEEP hate is by GETTING hit...the fewer times they are hit the less aggro they will keep on other mobs they don't have targeted.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Inquistors have the best power/heal ratio... but wardens have the best group healing ratio (closely followed by furys unless you count hibernation, but that takes timing and luck)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know, I come from Wardens (played one to 51, switched to Pally now)... You should see Warden forums... Almost everyone and his mother is complaining that Wardens are useless in MT group AND Wardens are useless in raids in general.</P> <P>The point being -- it seems like every (semi-)hybrid class (or perhaps even non-hybrids) seem to complain about them being useless in raids. I guess it is the local custom <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Solf wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> boli wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Fatuus wrote: <div></div>Wardens are the most efficient healers per power cost in game. They excel at group heals per power and burst healing (don't forget about the tree everyone loves to hate). While you are correct that some raiding guilds have taken the warden out of the mix on easier mobs, on tough fights that require long term healing power they are always in MT group. One factor you are forgeting about the MT group is that one of the ways guardians and beserkers KEEP hate is by GETTING hit...the fewer times they are hit the less aggro they will keep on other mobs they don't have targeted. <hr> </blockquote>Inquistors have the best power/heal ratio... but wardens have the best group healing ratio (closely followed by furys unless you count hibernation, but that takes timing and luck)</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>You know, I come from Wardens (played one to 51, switched to Pally now)... You should see Warden forums... Almost everyone and his mother is complaining that Wardens are useless in MT group AND Wardens are useless in raids in general.</p> <p>The point being -- it seems like every (semi-)hybrid class (or perhaps even non-hybrids) seem to complain about them being useless in raids. I guess it is the local custom <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <hr></blockquote>It is...lolWardens own the heal parses, no doubt.  An inquisitor with there regen buff on a high dps class (say Brigand) will never run out of power, so they are all the more powerful as well....</div>

[Boli32]

<blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Solf wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> boli wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Fatuus wrote: <div></div>Wardens are the most efficient healers per power cost in game. They excel at group heals per power and burst healing (don't forget about the tree everyone loves to hate). While you are correct that some raiding guilds have taken the warden out of the mix on easier mobs, on tough fights that require long term healing power they are always in MT group. One factor you are forgeting about the MT group is that one of the ways guardians and beserkers KEEP hate is by GETTING hit...the fewer times they are hit the less aggro they will keep on other mobs they don't have targeted. <hr> </blockquote>Inquistors have the best power/heal ratio... but wardens have the best group healing ratio (closely followed by furys unless you count hibernation, but that takes timing and luck)</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>You know, I come from Wardens (played one to 51, switched to Pally now)... You should see Warden forums... Almost everyone and his mother is complaining that Wardens are useless in MT group AND Wardens are useless in raids in general.</p> <p>The point being -- it seems like every (semi-)hybrid class (or perhaps even non-hybrids) seem to complain about them being useless in raids. I guess it is the local custom <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <hr></blockquote>It is...lolWardens own the heal parses, no doubt.  An inquisitor with there regen buff on a high dps class (say Brigand) will never run out of power, so they are all the more powerful as well....</div><hr></blockquote>*laughs* at leats you are chosen in the MT group <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> when they say its "cleric/shaman/druid" they mean defiler/Templar and warden <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Still I'm lucky amd my guild trust me enough for me to be in there.... still that's a discussion for anotehr forum. Oh and we use a Pally as the MT, a guard and him trade places depending on mob.<div></div>

[TheBu]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sup with noe one using the Resolute faith spell?  yea yea Mt loses a few def..  but dont they gain alot more?</DIV> <DIV>Resolute faith lvl 60 spell with a 54% chance to make and additional attempt to have a target avoid being hit using ur avoidance. Say 70%*54%= 38% less hits on the MT tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pledge of armament lvl 59 spell +425 mit. mit is mit fokes.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And hay if they MT  then amends 41% agro transfer and  Sigil of Heroism 36% temp agro transfer for the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yes and I gues the wisdom and str buff is s good thing for the mt right? well except all the self buffed super tanks that get all the stats maxed out.. but hay they dont even need a group right?...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rocksthemic]

<blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div> <p><em>There is always a need for an OT in case things get flakey, and we can do that pretty well.</em>Berserkers do it better!</p> <p>That being said, we typically run with one Crusader on raids.  Id rather have an SK for the debuffs, but if it HAS to be a Paladin... so be it.</p> <p>Oh, and 60% Avoidance + 38% Avoidance from a Monk is a total of 75% avoidance, which is great against a yellow con mob, but against an orange con mob, it doesnt really matter.  Still, its nice to throw Moderate on the Monk so they can bank out 1500 DPS and not take aggro.</p> <p>W</p><hr></blockquote> Ok, maybe i'm missing something, but how does 60+38 = 75? Thundaarr Unrest <Nightcap><div></div>

[So]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rocksthemic wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <P>Oh, and 60% Avoidance + 38% Avoidance from a Monk is a total of 75% avoidance, which is great against a yellow con mob, but against an orange con mob, it doesnt really matter.  Still, its nice to throw Moderate on the Monk so they can bank out 1500 DPS and not take aggro.</P> <P>W</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok, maybe i'm missing something, but how does 60+38 = 75?<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because you're looking at it the wrong way <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'll try to explain.</P> <P>60% avoidance means that 40% (or 0.4) of hits will hit MT. Of those 40% hits 38% will be avoided due to buff. Or, in other words, 62% (100-3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> of hits passing through the original avoidance will still hit the tank. Giving the total amount of hits that connect 0.4 (that pass original avoidance) * 0.62 (that pass through the buff) = 0.248 (or 24.8%). Thus 75.2% of all hits will be avoided with avoidance and buff together.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheBuzZ wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sup with noe one using the Resolute faith spell?  yea yea Mt loses a few def..  but dont they gain alot more?</DIV> <DIV>Resolute faith lvl 60 spell with a 54% chance to make and additional attempt to have a target avoid being hit using ur avoidance. Say 70%*54%= 38% less hits on the MT tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pledge of armament lvl 59 spell +425 mit. mit is mit fokes.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And hay if they MT  then amends 41% agro transfer and  Sigil of Heroism 36% temp agro transfer for the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yes and I gues the wisdom and str buff is s good thing for the mt right? well except all the self buffed super tanks that get all the stats maxed out.. but hay they dont even need a group right?...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Buzz,</P> <P>You fail to see that while 425 mit is nice to give to anyone...the issue is that most guardians in high end raiding guilds can keep THEMSELVES at 6300 mit with a healer in their group. Exill, a guardian on the Najena server, has a self buffed mit of almost 5900 with all his mitigation gear on. Granted that is a lot of mit, but even with a healer he's at 6500 mitigation. Another 425 mitigation will not help him in any way...since you can't go above 80% mitigation versus any lvl opponent.</P> <P>Str is pointless for the MT since with any shaman any tank worth half a grain of salt should be at max STR (510ish) anyways.</P> <P>Wisdom is nice for MT, but the 3% it adds on spell resists pales in comparison to what other classes bring to the MT group...ie dirge (parry, agi...increases MT avoidance about 8%, and hate gain...let alone power regen) and coercer (hate gain, power gain, and agi increase ...another 2% avoidance...as well as divine resists). Some raiding guilds may substitute a healer (generally a druid) for another hate gain player (assassin/swash) so the MT can hold even more aggro to allow more DPS, but some guilds do use a brawler (generally a monk due to the coercer buffing DPS...monks group haste).</P> <P>Lastly, amends only works as a MT if you have a class in YOUR group that creates a lot of DPS. Noone in the traditional MT group setup provides this...that means you must LOSE important buffs to get that hate YOU need to hold aggro. Sigil again transfers hate gain to you for 15 seconds...but the hate gain dirges/coercers/healers generate pale in comparison to the hate gain you get from a raw DPS group. This is one of the reasons why we make bad MT's but great offtanks. We can survive quite well on our own will little healage STEALING aggro from an intense DPS group to allow them to do more damage while the MT holds the rest of the mobs on himself. With a shaman on your group, you can put a ton of heavy hitters (my preference is casters) that have little aggro debuffs in your group to allow them to dps more freely and not die. </P>

[madha]

<P>6k is the max mit for a lvl 70 mb.. Higher lvls mobs need more mit i think 8k mit is the cap for lvl 75 mobs not sure though ..</P> <P>And besides with everymob debuffing mit 500 mit would show up anyway =P.. And Dirges buff agility. our agi buff doesnt stack with theirs our mt gets up to 60% avoidance our agil buff knocks him down, and its only 45% chance the dirg buff is a perminate buff.  Having them stack would be nice but im allways offensive stance in raids so my Avoidance sucks. </P> <P> Now you want to see a uslees buff templers get a AA to give their avoidance to someone else similarly to our avoidance buff, smaller % and most templers I have seen have crap for avoidance and yet ive seen templers cap this ability instead of heal crit chance ROFL.. I wish our heal crit was above our spell crit chance id take that in a second.  We have like what 4 actual spells that arnt combat arts, and one of them takes so long to cast i loose dps.</P>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> madhatr wrote:<BR> <P>6k is the max mit for a lvl 70 mb.. Higher lvls mobs need more mit i think 8k mit is the cap for lvl 75 mobs not sure though ..</P> <P>And besides with everymob debuffing mit 500 mit would show up anyway =P.. And Dirges buff agility. our agi buff doesnt stack with theirs our mt gets up to 60% avoidance our agil buff knocks him down, and its only 45% chance the dirg buff is a perminate buff.  Having them stack would be nice but im allways offensive stance in raids so my Avoidance sucks. </P> <P> Now you want to see a uslees buff templers get a AA to give their avoidance to someone else similarly to our avoidance buff, smaller % and most templers I have seen have crap for avoidance and yet ive seen templers cap this ability instead of heal crit chance ROFL.. I wish our heal crit was above our spell crit chance id take that in a second.  We have like what 4 actual spells that arnt combat arts, and one of them takes so long to cast i loose dps.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>6400 is cap versus a lvl 75 opponent. Yes mobs can debuff mit, but mainly what mobs do now (ie nizara) is debuff a resist to zero NOT mit.

[Anariale]

<DIV>Noone has ever said that it is a linear scale of Mitigation vs Cap as mobs increase in level/con.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Straight up, there is a DRASTIC difference on incoming damage as Mitigation increases, even beyond the 6400 mark.  I sit at around 6200 passive slashing Mit.  When fighting orange con mobs such as Chel'Drak, I have to watch myself during the 30 second downtime when cycling my buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>W</DIV><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>