What is wrong with our class?

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>I would like to start a serious thread to SOE about the problems that our class has, hoping that they may be looked at before the upcoming expansion.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel that our DPS needs to tweaking at all.  With the proper set up, gear, AA, etc. We can parse as high as alot of other DPS classes on raids.  My avg parse when MTing a group in 500, and I can hit over 1k while raiding, and I dont have the best gear in game, and dont have as many masters as I would like, or as good of a sword as I would like.  So this is not a problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Power consumption IS a major problem of our class.  We are VERY power inefficient.  We are always teh first class to be oop in a long figh, and this can be problematic when tanking.  While when DPSing, I have flowing thought 17 right now, when tanking, only my boots have any flowing thought on them, so I do not have that benefit while MT, which is when it is the most important.  our heals and wards take a good 5-10% of our power every time we cast them.  Heals and wards are supposed to be one of the things that sets us apart from other tanks, but it doesnt cost them any power to use their mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aggro Management.  This is undoubtly a problem.  We can keep aggro in most situations, however, we do not have the aggro skills that all other tank classes, other than SKs, have.  The other tank classes have combat arts that increase their hate with every time they hit a mob, on top of the hate added by causing damage.  I am asking for a passive proc type hate builder to help us out in this respect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation buffs.  Every tank class, and at least some scout classes have stances, both offensive and defensive.  The defensive adds mitigation on top of our gear.  BUT all other tank classes have buffs that increase their mitigation for permanently and temporary.  Brigands,  a scout class, albeit teh tanking scout class,  has in the area of 1200 self mitigation buffs, alowing a decently geared Brigand to have over 5k mitigation.  We, a TANK class, have only a 400 or so mitigation buff, our stance.  Other classes, like Zerkers and Guards, and temporarly buff their mitigation an extra 1k points, plus their permanent mitigation buffs we do not have access to anything similiar.  Again, asking for some type, even a small type, of self mitigation buff other than our defensive stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sony has stated many times that the only tanks that are supposed to be able to tank better than us are Guardians, however, at this time, the only tank that tanks worse than us is maybe the SKs.  One of the reasons I say this is that the biggest thing a tank needs to do is to hold aggro so that they can tank, but when any other tank class can easily steal aggro from us, then I must say that our ability to tank is not what it is supposed to be.  And the ability for another tank to buff their mitigation to over 10% more than we can do, is a major balance issue, even with our wards and heals, which quickly drain us of our power, keeping us from being able to throw as many taunts to keep aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please post any other SERIOUS concerns, and solutions to concerns, that you have with this class.  Thankyou</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jarred -70 Pally-</DIV><p>Message Edited by JarredDarque on <span class=date_text>08-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 AM</span>

[Anzak]

<div><blockquote><hr>JarredDarque wrote:<div>I would like to start a serious thread to SOE about the problems that our class has, hoping that they may be looked at before the upcoming expansion.  </div> <div> </div> <div>I feel that our DPS needs to tweaking at all.  With the proper set up, gear, AA, etc. We can parse as high as alot of other DPS classes on raids.  My avg parse when MTing a group in 500, and I can hit over 1k while raiding, and I dont have the best gear in game, and dont have as many masters as I would like, or as good of a sword as I would like.  So this is not a problem.<font color="#ff0000">This is a major concern.  Personally the only way I can break 600 DPS even in an ideal raid group with STR and INT maxed is if we are fighting groups of at least 3 or 4 mobs so I can push the PBAOE damage out.  The thing that bothers me more is I can push just as much damage in Defensive stance with a 1 hander as I can in offensive stance with a two hander do the exact same thing in terms of what combat arts and spells I'm using and in what order.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Power consumption IS a major problem of our class.  We are VERY power inefficient.  We are always teh first class to be oop in a long figh, and this can be problematic when tanking.  While when DPSing, I have flowing thought 17 right now, when tanking, only my boots have any flowing thought on them, so I do not have that benefit while MT, which is when it is the most important.  our heals and wards take a good 5-10% of our power every time we cast them.  Heals and wards are supposed to be one of the things that sets us apart from other tanks, but it doesnt cost them any power to use their mitigation.<font color="#ff0000">Yes power is an issue for us but one or two FT items really makes it a lot better.  I can use prismatic 2 and Mark for FT and even in a long fight where I'm healing a lot not have to worry about power other than to hit mana stone from time to time to give a small boost.  While I think we are slightly power inefficient I don't think it is should be listed as one of our major concerns when you look at the over all problems we have.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Aggro Management.  This is undoubtly a problem.  We can keep aggro in most situations, however, we do not have the aggro skills that all other tank classes, other than SKs, have.  The other tank classes have combat arts that increase their hate with every time they hit a mob, on top of the hate added by causing damage.  I am asking for a passive proc type hate builder to help us out in this respect.<font color="#ff0000">Are you crazy?  Master I Amends is the best hate builder in the game.  I will admit that Zerkers and more importantly guards have more abilities like rescue that move them up the hate list by position rather than giving hate as normal and that is a big thing in how they can save some one and do it over and over consistantly.  But with amends on the right person you should be able to hold agro in your sleep.  Often in groups I can hit 4 keys and have agro the entire fire.  (Group taunt, Brimstone, Single Taunt, Shield Bash)  If that isn't enough agro control for you then you are putting it on the wrong person I think.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Mitigation buffs.  Every tank class, and at least some scout classes have stances, both offensive and defensive.  The defensive adds mitigation on top of our gear.  BUT all other tank classes have buffs that increase their mitigation for permanently and temporary.  Brigands,  a scout class, albeit teh tanking scout class,  has in the area of 1200 self mitigation buffs, alowing a decently geared Brigand to have over 5k mitigation.  We, a TANK class, have only a 400 or so mitigation buff, our stance.  Other classes, like Zerkers and Guards, and temporarly buff their mitigation an extra 1k points, plus their permanent mitigation buffs we do not have access to anything similiar.  Again, asking for some type, even a small type, of self mitigation buff other than our defensive stance.<font color="#ff0000">Our mitigation buff is the same as every other tanks mitigation buff.  400 for Adept III 464 for Master I.  The Difference is Zerkers have a temp group mit buff and guards have that as well as a temp self mit buff.   Now the problem is not that we don't have these rather that what we have that is suppose to make up for them is lacking.  Our Self heal is what should make up this damage.  While the heal itself is about right.  The recast and casting time make it useless in terms of tanking.  This should be instant or 1 second with a 90 second recast.  This would make it the correct offset  for the Guard self mitigation buff.  Since the 30 seconds every 90 seconds they get is about equal to what we can heal with our self heal.  This way we both end up taking about the same damage but we do it differently;.</font></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Sony has stated many times that the only tanks that are supposed to be able to tank better than us are Guardians, however, at this time, the only tank that tanks worse than us is maybe the SKs.  One of the reasons I say this is that the biggest thing a tank needs to do is to hold aggro so that they can tank, but when any other tank class can easily steal aggro from us, then I must say that our ability to tank is not what it is supposed to be.  And the ability for another tank to buff their mitigation to over 10% more than we can do, is a major balance issue, even with our wards and heals, which quickly drain us of our power, keeping us from being able to throw as many taunts to keep aggro.</div> <div> </div> <div>Please post any other SERIOUS concerns, and solutions to concerns, that you have with this class.  Thankyou</div> <div> </div> <div>Jarred -70 Pally-</div><p>Message Edited by JarredDarque on <span class="date_text">08-14-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:12 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Actually I have a bigger concern than all of this and one that you have missed.  That is AAs.  My guild leader was able to get over 6K standing mitigation self buffed.  Actually not even self buffed with just his defensive stance up.  So great 320 of that comes from AA which Pallies have nothing that makes up for that.  Ok so then he should be giving up something for that right.  Nope with his agro axe and normal agro control he still has rock solid agro.  Oh DPS yeah that is it, nope he still pushes out 600-900 DPS every fight because he also had his buckler line.  So lets see with a buckler a guard can out DPS us still have good agro control and oh yeah have more mitigation.  That is a problem.</div>

[redi]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>JarredDarque wrote:<div>I would like to start a serious thread to SOE about the problems that our class has, hoping that they may be looked at before the upcoming expansion. </div><div> </div><div>I feel that our DPS needs to tweaking at all.  With the proper set up, gear, AA, etc. We can parse as high as alot of other DPS classes on raids.  My avg parse when MTing a group in 500, and I can hit over 1k while raiding, and I dont have the best gear in game, and dont have as many masters as I would like, or as good of a sword as I would like.  So this is not a problem.<font color="#ffff33">Well, if ure going to be MT and trying to do dps, use a fabled 2hander, cause we're seriously lacking of styles, just doing casts, which can be interrupted. But at least we benefit of int AND str, so we're the better dps class as a guardian (w/o going dps i have constantly 600+ dps)</font></div><div> </div><div>Power consumption IS a major problem of our class.  We are VERY power inefficient.  We are always teh first class to be oop in a long figh, and this can be problematic when tanking.  While when DPSing, I have flowing thought 17 right now, when tanking, only my boots have any flowing thought on them, so I do not have that benefit while MT, which is when it is the most important.  our heals and wards take a good 5-10% of our power every time we cast them.  Heals and wards are supposed to be one of the things that sets us apart from other tanks, but it doesnt cost them any power to use their mitigation.<font color="#ffff00">The power thing....well, we benefit from str and wis, so we are able to gain a much larger power pool than guardians and zerkers ever will and if u time your casting right, u won't ever go out of power (at least i do)</font></div><div> </div><div>Aggro Management.  This is undoubtly a problem.  We can keep aggro in most situations, however, we do not have the aggro skills that all other tank classes, other than SKs, have.  The other tank classes have combat arts that increase their hate with every time they hit a mob, on top of the hate added by causing damage.  I am asking for a passive proc type hate builder to help us out in this respect.<font color="#ffff00">Amends is your best friend....ever had a guardian with amends that used reinforcement? or a monk in taunting stance? u'll never loose aggro if ure using sigil of heroism and your group taunt, which will fairly be resisted (except lvl 75)</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Never had a problem with aggro management, except vs. villucidae, cause he has devine resistance, that are, imho, pervert</font><font color="#ffff00"></font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"> </font></div><div>Mitigation buffs.  Every tank class, and at least some scout classes have stances, both offensive and defensive.  The defensive adds mitigation on top of our gear.  BUT all other tank classes have buffs that increase their mitigation for permanently and temporary.  Brigands,  a scout class, albeit teh tanking scout class,  has in the area of 1200 self mitigation buffs, alowing a decently geared Brigand to have over 5k mitigation.  We, a TANK class, have only a 400 or so mitigation buff, our stance.  Other classes, like Zerkers and Guards, and temporarly buff their mitigation an extra 1k points, plus their permanent mitigation buffs we do not have access to anything similiar.  Again, asking for some type, even a small type, of self mitigation buff other than our defensive stance.<font color="#ffff00">well, though we are not getting up to guardians with our mitigation, we benefit from their temporary miti buff+ we easily cap defense(though we need a dirge for parrying) i never had a serious problem with the melee damage from mobs, while our guardian was oneshotted with magic/devine/fire/ice damage, as we can easily cap this too</font></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Sony has stated many times that the only tanks that are supposed to be able to tank better than us are Guardians, however, at this time, the only tank that tanks worse than us is maybe the SKs.  One of the reasons I say this is that the biggest thing a tank needs to do is to hold aggro so that they can tank, but when any other tank class can easily steal aggro from us, then I must say that our ability to tank is not what it is supposed to be.  And the ability for another tank to buff their mitigation to over 10% more than we can do, is a major balance issue, even with our wards and heals, which quickly drain us of our power, keeping us from being able to throw as many taunts to keep aggro.</div><div> </div><div>Please post any other SERIOUS concerns, and solutions to concerns, that you have with this class.  Thankyou</div><div> </div><div>Jarred -70 Pally-</div><p>Message Edited by JarredDarque on <span class="date_text">08-14-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:12 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[Kaleyen]

<blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:<div> Actually I have a bigger concern than all of this and one that you have missed.  That is AAs.  My guild leader was able to get over 6K standing mitigation self buffed.  Actually not even self buffed with just his defensive stance up.  So great 320 of that comes from AA which Pallies have nothing that makes up for that.  Ok so then he should be giving up something for that right.  Nope with his agro axe and normal agro control he still has rock solid agro.  Oh DPS yeah that is it, nope he still pushes out 600-900 DPS every fight because he also had his buckler line.  So lets see with a buckler a guard can out DPS us still have good agro control and oh yeah have more mitigation.  That is a problem.</div><hr></blockquote>This is something that I have been doing feedback on for weeks now.  Warriors that go down the buckler line can out DPS Pallys in every fight, tank better then us because of mit and hold aggro better.<div></div>

[Lord_Quaymar]

Every class has it's strengths and weaknesses. I think we could use a bit of an adjustment in the DPS area but that's about it imho. Also, I would like to see us be able to equip SOMETHING in our ranged ammo slot...like spell reagents maybe? Something!

[Anzak]

<div><blockquote><hr>LordQuaymar wrote:<div></div>Every class has it's strengths and weaknesses. I think we could use a bit of an adjustment in the DPS area but that's about it imho. Also, I would like to see us be able to equip SOMETHING in our ranged ammo slot...like spell reagents maybe? Something!<hr></blockquote>So then what is our strength? That we are weak at everything.  The simple fact of the matter is that SOE has stated time and time again that all fighters can tank and it is just situational.  Yet because every raid mob does a bulk of its damage in Melee that makes guardians the best raid tanks because they are best suited for taking melee damage.  Zerkers are second to this even though SOE has stated the Guards and Pallies were to be the top teir of tanking with Zerkers and monks in the second.  Even if a mob where to do most of its damage in one of the resists because of the ease of resist capping it would not be much for a guard to bump up their resists to the needed level and still keep more melee mitigation than a pally so they still have an edge because there will still be a fair amount of melee damage.So why should my guild bother to even let me try to tank when we have 2 guards and 2 zerkers how will always be better than me even if I have slightly better gear.  Or why should then even bother to bring me to a raid unless they are short on healing.  Since any other fighter can out DPS me and SKs can give pledge if needed.The only situation that Pallies are ideal is something like Nek 3 where you have multi groups that can't be single pulled so you are stuck fighting 3 encounters at once where a pally can put amends on a wizard or warlock and then use consecrate to have rock solid agro while they help the healers keep them alive.  But in terms of raid tanking there is never a situation where Guards are not the best choice and Zerkers the second best due to mitigation.</div>

[Anariale]

<P>There is no strength to the Paladin class...</P> <P>The class is medocrity at its best. </P>

[Anzak]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div> <p>There is no strength to the Paladin class...</p> <p>The class is medocrity at its best. </p><hr></blockquote>Nah I would say pallies are great group tanks because we are so flexable.  Since group mobs are much easier to hit the mit cap against not to mention they don't hit nearly as hard it is very easy for a pally to be just as good vs a group mob as any other tank class but our array of abilities and the fact that we can fit many roles in a pinch really gives us the flexability to deal with the often changing dynamics of groups.Now in terms of raids yes I agree with you 100%.</div>

[MeridianR]

Maybe it's because I don't have alt's to compare, but I am kinda, sorta happy with the class.....not 100% and I think we can use some loving from a raid standpoint, but not nearly as bad off as some people make you believe.DPS wise - it depends really on group makeup, but with a semi-decent setup I can average 800+ pretty much all the timeUtility wise - meh, rezzing is fine I guess, but nothing much more then this other then Amends on a high aggro person (our group buff is weak, who isn't str capped)Tank wise - Trash, and lesser named we are totally fine for....but our healers do have to work a bit more due to higher burst damage in the beginningGroup wise - we are fine, and heck grouping isn't a big thing anymore anyway....any tank can group tank with no issues.Solo wise - we are middle of the pact I am guessing....no way to snare, root, mez, etc...so we are limited in that regard.So mediocrity is a fairly decent statement.....** Note ** All the above is coming from a Top geared Paladin (Top 10 WW easily), in a server best guild (Not sure where to place on WW...so not going there), who has beat everything in the game that CAN be beat (so no Naggy, Matron, or NB in HoS)...Skill wise I am missing 5 masters from non-grey or non-updates skills.When I state the above, your mileage may vary depending on your gear, skills and your guild as a whole.<div></div>

[Kaleyen]

<div></div>Just tossing this out there because in the Combat Discussion it has to do with raids and not grouping. In an XP group where I have the same group buffs as the guardian/zerker I'm with... The Guardian/Zerker has more mit then I do, thus is tanking The Guard/Zerker does NOT have more HP then me (this means nothing, at 65 I had more HP then a 70 Guard because I maxed out the % HP increase in STA line). The Guard/Zerker out damages by at least x2/x3 even though they are tanking, in def stance with a one hander + buckler where as I'm in off stance, using a 2 hander The Guard/Zerker is of same level then me, +/- 1 level and has about the same gear that I do ( T7 legendary, usually 65+ gear). To me that's just wrong...does it seem that way to anyone else? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kaleyen on <span class=date_text>08-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:58 AM</span>

[Anzak]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kaleyen wrote:<div></div>Just tossing this out there because in the Combat Discussion it has to do with raids and not grouping. In an XP group where I have the same group buffs as the guardian/zerker I'm with... The Guardian/Zerker has more mit then I do, thus is tanking The Guard/Zerker does NOT have more HP then me (this means nothing, at 65 I had more HP then a 70 Guard because I maxed out the % HP increase in STA line). The Guard/Zerker out damages by at least x2/x3 even though they are tanking, in def stance with a one hander + buckler where as I'm in off stance, using a 2 hander The Guard/Zerker is of same level then me, +/- 1 level and has about the same gear that I do ( T7 legendary, usually 65+ gear). To me that's just wrong...does it seem that way to anyone else? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kaleyen on <span class="date_text">08-14-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:58 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yup, in tank gear I can hit almost 9K HP self buffed (Spear of the sentry, Strength of the Dragon, HP potion) I'm sure with food and drink I could break that since my STA is not maxed self buffed.  But honestly that is only a few hundred more than what better geared guards and zerkers can get.  But a few hundred HP is nothing compaired to the difference in Mitigation.  I think you would need close to 1K HP just to make up the difference in what the Guards and Zerkers get in mitigation.  Even maxed out STA line we don't come close to that kind of advantage.</div>

[Kaleyen]

<div></div>I just maxed out the % HP increase because in raids I'm the rez ho, so I don't need the mitigation, my sole purpose is to outlast the AE and rez those who didn't. I'm fine with Guards/Zerkers being the superior tank in groups/raids, that's awesome that's great that's what they are there for.  Just when they out DPS me is when I get a bit huffy.  And no I'm not whining, those who are Guards and Zerkers might see it as that way but take it a look at it from a Crusader's perspective. Guards/Zerks = superior tanks because of mitigation + taunts (which is how it should be) but now they can out dps a crusader.... I was under the impression that the fighter DPS line when something along these lines (from least to most) Guardian -- Zerker -- Paladin -- SK  -- Bruiser -- Monk Brawler one I'm not too familuar with Bruisers, just know my monk (who's 63 atm) <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kaleyen on <span class=date_text>08-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:24 PM</span>

[Zo]

I don't see how fellow paladins can think that we hold aggro worse than a warrior. We have the two best aggro skills in the game - Amends and Sigil. We're the best aggro tank, bar none. Am I the only one that talks to his amends target?- Power cost concerns are legit. We use much more power than other tanks in a DPS role.- Aggro concerns are way off.- SOE messed up by not giving us a mitigation AA - if we keep at it we may get a change.- Paladins are built for a different role than a Guardian - reroll if you don't grasp it. A guardian tanking with a paladin supporting him is a better setup than a pally tanking with guardian support.

[robusticus]

<P>I would like to be able to cast our ward and heals while moving.  I've found that I can stand up against raid mobs pretty well self healing, but if I try to move (and thus stop healing) I go down pretty quick.  Oh, and I would like our heals to generate the same amount of threat as damage does.  Just crusader heals, that is.  And maybe even when cast on ourselves.</P> <P>The rational for that was to prevent training through zones, I heard.  But that was before mobs would use their abilities to stun, snare, etc....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by robusticus on <SPAN class=date_text>08-14-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:25 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class=date_text>08-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:34 AM</span>

[khufure]

<blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:<div>Actually I have a bigger concern than all of this and one that you have missed.  That is AAs.  My guild leader was able to get over 6K standing mitigation self buffed.  Actually not even self buffed with just his defensive stance up.  So great 320 of that comes from AA which Pallies have nothing that makes up for that.  Ok so then he should be giving up something for that right.  Nope with his agro axe and normal agro control he still has rock solid agro.  Oh DPS yeah that is it, nope he still pushes out 600-900 DPS every fight because he also had his buckler line.  So lets see with a buckler a guard can out DPS us still have good agro control and oh yeah have more mitigation.  That is a problem.</div><hr></blockquote>I think this is spot on.  Our AAs are not bad, but crappy compared to warrior or brawler AAs.  We could really use a temporary mitigation AA.  I think the final stamina line AA is too unreliable.<div></div>

[JarredDarque]

<P>My agro concerns are well founded  I have less aggro problems that most other tanks on the server.  But when you have two DPSers in the group, with no hate funnel.  Say, wizzy and a monk.  you put amends on the monk,  they wizzy gets aggro.  Put it on the Wizzy, the monk gets.  There really is no way around this unless you tell the one without amends to turn it down to the point where you may as well have brought another healer.   Sigil can hardly be counted into normal aggro control  IT is on a 2 minute timer.  I pull a  new encounter roughly every 45 seconds in HoF   which means it can only be used once every three fights.  Thus, not very useful overall.   Secondly, Amends in a raid is almost useless as MT.   AT least in our MT group, we do not have the biggest DPSers,  half the group is healers, then two power regens and the tank,  or a power regen and conj and the tank.   Either way, the bigger DPSers are in the other groups, and can still very easily steal aggro from us, who dont have near the aggro management on our own as any other tank class minus SKs</P> <P> </P> <P>I have FT 17.  and still dont see much of an improvement for making me more power efficient.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you want to know how to DPS in a raid,  get an inquisitor and a coercer in your group.  those two alone will bump your DPS mod to about 60% or so.  miz this with gauntlets of speed, a 95+ rated sword with an offensive proc and you are looking at over 550 DPS without casting anything.  cast refusal and a few of our other major damage spells,  and AOEs if applicable (I use brimstone on single targets as well)  and you are looking at 700+ easy.</P> <P> </P> <P>A mitigation buff in our AA lines would help out alot.</P>

[Geekyone]

<DIV>Righteousness (sp?) takes too long to cast.  And in any raid situation where amends and Sigal don't do anything to people ourside of our group 1 taunt that takes too long to cast isn't enough.</DIV>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzak wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordQuaymar wrote:<BR> Every class has it's strengths and weaknesses. I think we could use a bit of an adjustment in the DPS area but that's about it imho. Also, I would like to see us be able to equip SOMETHING in our ranged ammo slot...like spell reagents maybe? Something!<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So then what is our strength? That we are weak at everything.  The simple fact of the matter is that SOE has stated time and time again that all fighters can tank and it is just situational.  Yet because every raid mob does a bulk of its damage in Melee that makes guardians the best raid tanks because they are best suited for taking melee damage.  Zerkers are second to this even though SOE has stated the Guards and Pallies were to be the top teir of tanking with Zerkers and monks in the second.  Even if a mob where to do most of its damage in one of the resists because of the ease of resist capping it would not be much for a guard to bump up their resists to the needed level and still keep more melee mitigation than a pally so they still have an edge because there will still be a fair amount of melee damage.<BR><BR>So why should my guild bother to even let me try to tank when we have 2 guards and 2 zerkers how will always be better than me even if I have slightly better gear.  Or why should then even bother to bring me to a raid unless they are short on healing.  Since any other fighter can out DPS me and SKs can give pledge if needed.<BR><BR>The only situation that Pallies are ideal is something like Nek 3 where you have multi groups that can't be single pulled so you are stuck fighting 3 encounters at once where a pally can put amends on a wizard or warlock and then use consecrate to have rock solid agro while they help the healers keep them alive.  But in terms of raid tanking there is never a situation where Guards are not the best choice and Zerkers the second best due to mitigation.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There are plenty of high end guilds that have Pallies as their MT.

[Anzak]

<div><blockquote><hr>Zo wrote:I don't see how fellow paladins can think that we hold aggro worse than a warrior. We have the two best aggro skills in the game - Amends and Sigil. We're the best aggro tank, bar none. Am I the only one that talks to his amends target?- Power cost concerns are legit. We use much more power than other tanks in a DPS role.- Aggro concerns are way off.- SOE messed up by not giving us a mitigation AA - if we keep at it we may get a change.- Paladins are built for a different role than a Guardian - reroll if you don't grasp it. A guardian tanking with a paladin supporting him is a better setup than a pally tanking with guardian support.<hr></blockquote>I do grasp it.  The problem is that I rolled to be a tank based on SOEs statements.  So now again with 2 guards and 2 zerkers all 4 geared with the extra Mit AAs why on earth would my guild want me to tank when I can be used better to buff someone else.  Who already has more mitigation than me from the get go.  If Mitigation where not the end all be all of raid tanking then there might be some ground to stand on that Pallies have situational uses.  The reality is that mitigation is the end all be all of raid tanking and Guards are the best at that by a long shot with Zerkers still head and shoulders over any other tank class.Should I even get into itemization?  I mean look at the Warrior only shoulders that drop in Labs.   Hmmmm Instance zone that you can do once a week.  vs the Pally equive which are slightly lower mitigation and also designed for healers and are listed Crusadier cleric.  Where do they drop?  A spawnable contested mob.  So first you have to find that it is up to be spawned then convince your guild to raid it.  Oh and then you will need to be not just against people in your class and one other now you have 4 classes that it is good for.   And that is just one of many examples.The point is that while SOE says publicly that all fighters can tank and it is situational they are showing with their actions that Guards/Zerkers are the raid tanks.  They either need to come out and say Guards and Zerkers are the raid tanks all the time and other fighters have other rolls.  Or they need to balance the plate classes better so there are situations where the other tank classes are better options.</div>

[equinoxio]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JarredDarque wrote:<BR> <P>My agro concerns are well founded  I have less aggro problems that most other tanks on the server.  But when you have two DPSers in the group, with no hate funnel.  Say, wizzy and a monk.  you put amends on the monk,  they wizzy gets aggro.  Put it on the Wizzy, the monk gets.  There really is no way around this unless you tell the one without amends to turn it down to the point where you may as well have brought another healer.   Sigil can hardly be counted into normal aggro control  IT is on a 2 minute timer.  I pull a  new encounter roughly every 45 seconds in HoF   which means it can only be used once every three fights.  Thus, not very useful overall.   Secondly, Amends in a raid is almost useless as MT.   AT least in our MT group, we do not have the biggest DPSers,  half the group is healers, then two power regens and the tank,  or a power regen and conj and the tank.   Either way, the bigger DPSers are in the other groups, and can still very easily steal aggro from us, who dont have near the aggro management on our own as any other tank class minus SKs</P> <P> </P> <P>I have FT 17.  and still dont see much of an improvement for making me more power efficient.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you want to know how to DPS in a raid,  get an inquisitor and a coercer in your group.  those two alone will bump your DPS mod to about 60% or so.  miz this with gauntlets of speed, a 95+ rated sword with an offensive proc and you are looking at over 550 DPS without casting anything.  cast refusal and a few of our other major damage spells,  and AOEs if applicable (I use brimstone on single targets as well)  and you are looking at 700+ easy.</P> <P> </P> <P>A mitigation buff in our AA lines would help out alot.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Jarred, you know me and have seen my gear, I've tanked several times, I did Labs last night (for my first time) up to the Doomsworn somethind (the one before the corsolater), I didnt had any problems with my agro, well the occasional lost of agro on the mobs IM NOT ON, in a group encounter, since the Warlock was nuking hard on the whole encounter and he wasnt in my group nor had a troubador for most of the time. In you're group setting, when you're tanking or another paladin is, put a bruiser an a high dps person (Bruiser, Brigand, Swashbuckler, Wizard or Warlock) and put amends on that person, the best is to have a bruiser, brigand or warlock, I dont have problem with agro 90% of the time, unless the trigger happy dps gets it. Sigils, I accept it, it's almost useless in a raid, but if you use it at the begging of the pull, you got a better chance of holding the agro for the first seconds of the fight, for you can cycle around the mobs and hit them with a taunt skill (Valorous Dash, Clarion call, Righteoussnes or even rescue).</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzak wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Should I even get into itemization?  I mean look at the Warrior only shoulders that drop in Labs.   Hmmmm Instance zone that you can do once a week.  vs the Pally equive which are slightly lower mitigation and also designed for healers and are listed Crusadier cleric.  Where do they drop?  A spawnable contested mob.  So first you have to find that it is up to be spawned then convince your guild to raid it.  Oh and then you will need to be not just against people in your class and one other now you have 4 classes that it is good for.   And that is just one of many examples.<BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Anzak if the healer gets the item from you, there is some serious issue with companionship, since that shoulder is tank basicly (Im guessing you're talking about the one that drops from the monoliths in Bonemire)</P>

[Anzak]

I don't see why a healer should not have an even chance at them.  26 WIS and 90 Power is not bad for a shoulder item.  I'm sure there are better but no reason why a healer should not bid on them other than they are clearly designed for a tank because of the + vs melee.  But that was not as much the point as the other points.  The major point is the Doomrage are actually better for tanking than the Darkbrough by a slight amount though that is just adding on top of already being weaker tanks.  But then top it off with Doomrage is just a matter of time until you get them.  Darkbrough is not so much since it is technically contested so there not only do you have to kill the mob and hope to get a lucky drop.  You have to try to find it up which means it could be months between attempts rather than every week farming labs.If you ask me crusadier only gear should have about 45 more mit than equal warrior only gear.  Over the 7 armor slots this would make up the 320 Mitigation we lose to their AA.   But then I guess I'm just fooling myself to think SOE wants to give pallies a fair chance to be considered for tanking roles when a guard with equal gear will always give the best chance to win.<div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzak wrote:<BR>I don't see why a healer should not have an even chance at them.  26 WIS and 90 Power is not bad for a shoulder item.  I'm sure there are better but no reason why a healer should not bid on them other than they are clearly designed for a tank because of the + vs melee.  But that was not as much the point as the other points.  The major point is the Doomrage are actually better for tanking than the Darkbrough by a slight amount though that is just adding on top of already being weaker tanks.  But then top it off with Doomrage is just a matter of time until you get them.  Darkbrough is not so much since it is technically contested so there not only do you have to kill the mob and hope to get a lucky drop.  You have to try to find it up which means it could be months between attempts rather than every week farming labs.<BR><BR>If you ask me crusadier only gear should have about 45 more mit than equal warrior only gear.  Over the 7 armor slots this would make up the 320 Mitigation we lose to their AA.   But then I guess I'm just fooling myself to think SOE wants to give pallies a fair chance to be considered for tanking roles when a guard with equal gear will always give the best chance to win.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hiya Anzak...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>There is other solutions too on the mitigation issue, a easy to place item in the game is to have the xegonite censer with a mitigation number that is similar to the Warrior AA choice, the cobalt is 114 i think, make the xegonite 280 or 300 with the cruddy stats the at cobalt has and that would help bridge the gap.  </P> <P>A bigger concern is one brought up by a few paladins earlier and needs to be readdressed, looks like a bug in our stats that contribute power to our pallies if one stat is maxxed before the other.  For example, if we are suppose to get power for each point of strength and wisdom up till 420 in each stat, the way it works now if i am in defense mode with lets say 500 wisdom and 350 strength,  I may have 4200 power.  A Berserker groups with me and his group buff adds 120 strength to my guy putting me at 500 wisdom and 470 strength.  Technically i should have 70 more strength that counts to my power pool for around 182 power 70X2.6=182.  Unfortunately we will show only 4200 power unless we recieve a buff that increases our power non stat based.  This needs a dev response, is it a bug or a imposed cap that we were hit with.  </P> <P>Personally the power stat issue needs fixed so that we recieve full benefit from both of our stats when one is already past the max power cap.  I further think that wisdom needs a further boost and be increased to the same amount of power as strength(around 2.6) to help defray the power cost of our wards and heals and help us be a true caster tank.  If they dont want to do that then we need our heals/wards to be close to the warriors mit buff power costs, since they say we have them as replacements.</P> <P>Those that are saying we have agro problems, I have to disagree with you, in a good group/raid with players playing their role on agro management paladins are up there with the best of them on agro generation.  With same buffs from supporting players, especially procs, we can hold agro very well.  The two main concerns we have is power pool/power consumption and mitigation.  I love being in a troubadour/coercer/inquisitor/berserker group, 100 % DPS 100% Haste(with gauntlets of glorious speed) is happy times on the DPS parser.<BR></P>

[Anzak]

Steel,    As far as I know none of the T7 ranged items have Mit on them.  I'll double check that tonight but I'm pretty sure that is true.  As for the cobalt well consider this that item is level 50 so a raid mob is going to be 25 levels over it so while you see an increase in your raw mitigation and maybe even a small increase in your mit percent that raid mob is going to ignore most if not all of that.  Now if there where a level 65-70 ranged slot item crusadier only that gave 320 mitigation that dropped in say labs or temple of scale then we would have balance to the warriors extra AAs.  But as far as I know we don't.<div></div>

[minionofdeath]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I didn't even make it through reading all the posts before I simply had to reply and add some comments.When people say they have been out dps'd by a Guardian or a Beserker, were they the MT?  It makes <u>ALL</u> the difference in the world.  Being an MT guarantees you'll get all the best buffs/procs and other goodies.  The dps you are doing is not a true reflection of what a classes base dps is.  Replace any MT with another, and they will be doing roughly the same kinds of numbers.  If this person was not in the MT group, but in a DPS group (Coercer, Inquis, Wizard, Warlock, Bruiser, Monk etc.) and received any of the "Orange" buffs, that persons DPS can often skyrocket.  Coercer's give a single target buff of 50-60% odd dps mod.  That's staggering.  Warlocks have an amazing buff that procs disease or poison on your attacks.  Assasins give a poison proc buff as well.  My point is that it's so situational, unless you provide parses and who was in that persons group, what buffs/procs they had placed upon them, what their haste/dps mods were at, there's really no point in even complaining or posting here about your concerns in being out dps'd by that person.  You cannot make a comparison when you have not provided any information about the situation.Paladins are far from gimped.  Both raid equipped Paladins in my guild regularly pump out at minimum of 800-900dps per encounter.  This can spike to 1200-1400+ at times, but normally resides at just under 1k per fight.  How on earth is that gimped?  Maybe they know how to play your class, chose the right kinds of weapons (taking delay into account), chose the right kind of AAs etc.  That also brings me to this point.  A Guardian/Beserker spec'd for DPS, with the correct group setup, buffs/procs, DPS AAs etc., is going to do what you think... that's right he's going to do produce some decent DPS.  That was the entire point of AA in the first place.  People could spec their toons in whatever fashion or gamestyle they choose based on the available AA options.Crusaders are hands down able to solo the best out of the plate fighters and are on par with Brawlers for solobility as well.  Why you cannot use that advantage you have in those areas when tanking I'm not sure.  I do understand some concerns about your self heal having a long cast time.  That would be frustrating when tanking to have it be interrupted.  However, you have to consider that Warriors temp mit buffs are not insta cast either.  The 30sec group mit buff has a 2.0sec casting time.Not only does one of the above mentioned Paladins in my guild continually rank top 3 in just about every single parse of late, but he can solo just about every named in SoS.  Quite an amazing feat.  Hardly something you would called gimped or broken.  Both these Paladins do not consider themselves gimped or broken either.  They are both skilled and love playing their class.Here's a parse of a recent Labs raid...<img src="http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9756/paladindpsparsend3.gif">I can parse more fights if people so desire.  Of course I realise this is not an indication of a class as a whole.  You cannot measure a persons skill in playing their class.  The Paladin who parsed the highest was on the MT group for the mit transfer.  Unless any of the single target buffs/procs were usable by more than 1 person, the only buffs they received were the group ones, plus their self ones.Anyway, from my world, Paladins are not broken.  They have many viable skills that are welcome on raids.  When you find a person who truly loves their class, they also tend to play their class better than others.<p>Message Edited by minionofdeath on <span class=date_text>08-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

<div></div>Couple things:I think your DPS classes really need to either stop the afk'ing, or learn to play there class.....that parse is terrible..I think your MT Paladin needs to learn how to keep aggro a little better...Sorry if this is a bit harsh, but posting horrible parses do NOTHING to help classes at all......having a Paladin parse 800 when a Brig parses 300 should be a sin.<div></div><p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class=date_text>08-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:27 AM</span>

[redi]

If the SK made only 200dps.....did he zone in 10 mins later? And the paladin got his high dps parses from Rightous Demonstration and Call to Duty and other procs. And if he was in offense stance, then it is no miracle that he has such dps.And for the sake of god, your dps-classes should get at least a1 spells.....that's a shame. Sorry.....<div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>redict wrote:If the SK made only 200dps.....did he zone in 10 mins later? And the paladin got his high dps parses from Rightous Demonstration and Call to Duty and other procs. And if he was in offense stance, then it is no miracle that he has such dps.And for the sake of god, your dps-classes should get at least a1 spells.....that's a shame. Sorry.....<div></div><hr></blockquote>If a Brigand did 300 dps, he should be hung</div>

[Anzak]

<div></div>While I think the point you where trying to make is that damage shields make up a good amount of the main tanks DPS.  Aside from the fact that most of the classes in your parse are much lower than they should be.  Just about every fight both our guards and both our zerkers make the parse or come close when I say make the parse we are talking the top 10 DPSers.  It is very rare that a pally makes that list and almost as rare that an SK makes the list.  So the whole point of the MT getting damage sheilds is invalid since I'm sure that the other 3 are not getting that extra damage.  And one of them is the off tank so he is in defensive with a one hander and shield.Another point is that even if MTing getting less than 400 healing against any raid mob means you are not doing your part to keep the damage the healers have to heal down.  You should have your ward up on pull every time which means min you should have 900 healing just from the ward on pull.  Heck when DPSing and throwing out heals and wards only once in a while to help the healers a bit when I can I'm normally 12K or more healed.  When tanking that ward is going off pretty much every time it is up.Also maybe show the parse from a named where the fight lasts a bit longer so you can see sustained damage rather than burst damage from a trash mob.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Anzak on <span class=date_text>08-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:37 AM</span>

[ChopStix]

with prayer of consecration running, and in offensive stance a good 2 hander..  i could see it...  but you dont do it every fight i i gaurantee it.... 

[Anzak]

<blockquote><hr>ChopStix wrote:<div></div>with prayer of consecration running, and in offensive stance a good 2 hander..  i could see it...  but you dont do it every fight i i gaurantee it.... <hr></blockquote>   As far as DPS or healing?  not sure prayer of consecration would have any impact on DPS since that is our group heal.  Though I don't really see the connection to offensive tance and a good 2 hander and healing either.  I guess with more INT our heals are a bit better.Anyway I took a look at my log parses from Sunday's DT raid.  I was average 300-400 DPS with spikes as high as 850 (Though that was 5 carrion worms that I could drop PBAOEs on and they were dead pretty fast from the casters doing the same)  but on top of that my average healing was 5-12K with spikes up over 30K on some of the longer fights with AE mobs.<div></div>

[ChopStix]

<P>i meant consecrate, sorry..</P> <P> </P> <P>and geez, i thought i was bad , sorry if you average 300-400...</P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>08-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 AM</span>

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>Yall need to talk with yalls DPS   Necros, Conjs, Swashies, and Brigs should be hitting a minimum of 1k consistently.   You have one conj was over 1k,  another wasnt even at 400?   Same things for monks,  one is near 775,  the other just over 400?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I said that out class is capable of extremely impressive DPS numbers.  What bout the other issues?  I can guarantee that that Pally in that parse was the first person in his group to run oop the entire night if he kept up like that.</DIV>

[Anzak]

yeah 300-400 DPS with no haste on yellow con mobs and no extra damage procs.  That is not bad really.  I'm hoping to get a Jade inlaid Crecent Axe soon which will give me 20% haste and an extra 8 or 9 damage rating so that should up my DPS a fair amount not to mention if I can ever afford masters of my DPS spells.<div></div>

[Perfectio]

I agree on some of what have been said.But atm. warriors are way overpowered. Extra minigation + buckler line, theres no way we can compare with that.Its true we cant tank pretty much any raid mob in the game. But why should we when warriors can do it better with less stress on healers?As when it comes to zerkers, lets take a zone like lyceum. Our zerker does 1100-1200 dps zone-wide when he ISNT tanking, where i would do like 800. And that is with us being in the same group ( i would even benifit from his haste and dps here). The zerkers ability to both tank very very well and do tons of dps is just too much.So what i really wanted to say. As in general there are no role in raids for us crusaders (except for 1), sure we can rez, but hey get a fury they can too.So SoE if u dont want us to tank aswell as warriors, dps as good as rouges, predators or sorceres, heal as good as any priest, give as good utility as coercer, illu, troub or dirge  then where the hell are we needed?<div align="center"><font color="#ff0000" size="6">GIVE US A FREAKIN ROLE!</font></div><div></div>

[digitalblasphemy]

<div></div><div></div>I don't think the person who posted the parse was a Paladin.  Neither of the Pallies were MT or MA either after reading that post again.  It's also clearly obvious that the 200-300 dps persons were either afk or not not paying attention.<p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by digitalblasphemy on <span class=date_text>08-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:07 PM</span>

[Turb]

What is our role?I guess that's the crux of the thread.We can tank, no question. I have no issues in groups, though I often wish I had some of the warrior skills like the guardian's group shield, or the zerker's insolent gibe to help out in emergencies. Rescue + Sigil is nice, but doesn't handle all oh-poop moments.But we can't tank as well as a warrior due to their mit buffs. Nor should we expect to dps like a wizard or ranger.Our strength is being the most flexible class. We can put out reasonable dps, we can do reasonable healing, and we can tank reasonably. But in a min-max raid, we're at a disadvantage as we have no one thing we excel at.We are good support tanks; if we do get in the MT group we can buff mit nicely, and offer additional healing and help with amends etc. But I feel most raids see a pally in MT group as a waste.How can that be addressed? One thing that would immediately help is allowing our mit buff, and amends, to work between groups in a raid. I haven't tried for a while, but I don't think they do now. Then at least one pally on a raid is valuable for the MT; even at the mit cap it'll help against higher con mobs.So I think we can be given support tank love by the devs. But MT love, hard to see...

[Perfectio]

About  casting Sigil and amends on high dps ppl in raids so they dont get agro doesnt work very well for me.Say im in a DPS grp i would put amends on a swash or a warlock if we fight big grps. Well guess what that gets me killed if i put out decent dps (800-ich), i will simply pull agro. toss up sigil together with that and im dead even before.Pledge out of grp sounds like a good idea, but that would make us more of a utility class. Then i would say we need more unitilies to be worthy still. Cast Pledge on our selves? Thats may be another idea, but if cast on ourselves, it would only be temporary. (tbh i dont see this happening ever).Just give us something that would make us either more, DPS, unility, healage or tankish. Make us the best at something. Cause being able to do everything, isnt worst anything raid wise is most situations.<div></div>

[Anzak]

Please NO to pledge and/or amends being cross raid.  Sure that would mean we would have a role on the raid but it would also mean we would always be in the dump group since we can pledge the MT from there and then amends the highest DPSer.  We might as well be buff bots at that point.While I agree that we could really use a role I think we already have a role it is just not designed right.  Our primary role is tanking.  Thus there needs to be raid situations where we tank better than any other class.  That is not the case and that is the issue that needs to be fixed.  Our secondary role is DPS and support healing while we don't do either as well as other classes the fact that we can do both means we can sometimes be used where you need just a bit more DPS and a bit more healer rather than a lot of either.The real fight is not for a role rather for situational raid tanking.<div></div>

[Ai yo]

<P>Hi all,</P> <P>I guess soe give pally too many differnce kinds of skill like - healing nuking tanking & so we end up no where.</P> <P>Look at vanguard pally is not going to be power healing!!!</P> <P> </P>

[Kaleyen]

I want to be able to rez out of group members.  I play on a PvP server so I often find a poor soul who is dead out in Antonica...would be nice to rez em right up!<div></div>

[hawsecav19d]

<DIV>Personally the only thing I think needs changed is recast time of our heals both group friend personal. I am only 51, but  I rarely lose agro, on  group mob pulls I am top 2 90% time and #1 half of that single  mob pulls not as good. Mostly Mastercrafted and legendary armor master 1 and adept 3 spells. If you cut down the casting time so you have less chance of  getting interupted and less time not doing CA and melee you can make up for the few mitigation we loose to Gaurdians. But if you going to change that knock about 15% of our spells power cost off and I say thanks sir/madam aint going to complain for a bit.</DIV>

[RaistNA]

Ill jump on this post here. Iv talked to several paladins gamewide about several different aspects...tanking, dpsing, or just utility. The one major benefit to our class is we can do it all, the downside is we suck at it all. Agro is my only issue, tanking isnt really an issue, iv tanked basically every mob in the game cept for chal'drak (im too busy tanking the class adds to bother worring about offtanking chal) I find on raids aggro can be an issue cause no matter WHO u put amends on someone else will take agro.  Ok your in MT group, so for agro u move ur assassin or warlock or swash or whoever to MT group for amends, well they just lost most of their dps buffs, so they wont be putting up the same numbers, therefor they wont be putting out the same hate.  I think they would fix our agro managment by leaps and bounds just to make amends cross group. On the dps thing, i know its already been stated but that parse posted above....yea sorry but thats just not normal.  In my guild, we have 2 necros, a wizzy, a ranger, assassin, swashy, 2sk's and 2 brawlers and a few more that regularly put out numbers 1.5k+, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] our necros are known to do upwards of 3k in some zones.  So when u got people doing numbers like that, i can sit back and afk the whole fight, and we will still raid dps at 18k+, so why dps?  hehe ull nvr really see me in offensive on a raid with a 2h out.  While yes a zerker can tank better then us at times, u dont know how many times mid fight something happens and a mob crits and the MT falls into the purple and FDed by alturism, and it never fails, i will ALWAYS get the agro before the zerker, and with a quick tap of DA, i can then begin to stack the wards and heals on myself, along with the other healers on the raid.  That gives me PLENTY of time to offtank till the MT is back up, rebuffed, afked to use the restroom, put a pot of coffee on and go for his jog. My only concern is when im MTing with no guard or zerker (which i do a fair amount these days) is the agro.  Amends is useless on raids cause no matter which DPS u switch into MT group, their numbers will be less cause of buff changes, therefor their agro will be less, and someone else will take their spot on the parse and be ur agro issue.  I find the best class for amends is a brawler (prefer monk) with their hate stance up. Also i see a lot of people here comparing us to warriors.....u should look up gungo on the crushbone server...hes a bruiser in my guild (Elysium) that can get 80% mitigation and 80% avoidance at the same time...so yea its not just warriors that have the edge over us on tanking abilitys <div></div>

[Perfectio]

Soon epics cant crit anymore.Amends is not totally useless in raids, unless u have a dirge and coercer to hate buff you.<div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzak wrote:<BR>Steel,<BR>    As far as I know none of the T7 ranged items have Mit on them.  I'll double check that tonight but I'm pretty sure that is true.  As for the cobalt well consider this that item is level 50 so a raid mob is going to be 25 levels over it so while you see an increase in your raw mitigation and maybe even a small increase in your mit percent that raid mob is going to ignore most if not all of that.  Now if there where a level 65-70 ranged slot item crusadier only that gave 320 mitigation that dropped in say labs or temple of scale then we would have balance to the warriors extra AAs.  But as far as I know we don't.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmm, that gives me some things to try in game.  When posting earlier i was thinking of a level 62 xegonite censer that would be able to give the ~300 mit as +slashing/crushing/piercing.   Will have to compare the cobalt censer to the dragonscale tome to see the difference in mitigation % versus a level 70 mob for crushing/slashing/piercing.  I never pay attention to the number, only the percent versus.  I was thinking at least if xegonite version had a nice chunk that was craftable, it would give crusaders a baseline increase.  There could then be a legendary or fabled drop that gave some more for the ones that wanted to max their mit.  I really like my Thor UI now, it is showing me all the stuff i need to know to help improve my character in mitigation, regen,crits, resists and so on.   Talk to ya later bud...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<P>Want to fix the class? </P> <P>Shorten heal casting times. Shorten recast times. Make them CA's and thusly castable on the move. If our wards/heals are going to compensate for our lack of mitigation then make them really count. </P>

[Kenji11]

<P>As Saffira said, shorten the casts and recasts of our heals.</P> <P>Here is an comparasin. Mayhem M1, the zerker group mit buff, exact same as the gaurdian's overall had a 30 second duration and a 1 minute downtime. Mayhem provided the group with 707 mitigation, and costs 92 power to cast.</P> <P>Wall of Ferocity M1, the zerker self mit buff, again, same as the gaurd one has an effective 30 second duration and 1 minute downtime, and 46 power to cast.</P> <P>At lvl 70, if a warrior has thier group mit buff up, and are not already at max mit for an encounter, then every time they are hit for an attack with a base of 9600 damage, they mitigate about the same as the average paladin M1 Fervent Aid would heal.</P> <P>And again, if they were to use thier self mit buff, every hit for 8600 would be about equal to a single Devotion M1 ward.</P> <P>Now, the problem lies in that a warrior's mit buffs are % based, and our's are numberical. So the question is, what do we balance it against? If we balance it again solo mobs, then our heals are nothing to an epic, if we go off epics, then they are way way too strong on a solo. Now honestly, I think that right now they are somewhat balanced against x2s, the again I may be wrong.</P> <P>The point is that it is too hard to balance a % based defensive buff and a numberical defensive buff. I would say that it is fairly decent right now. Maybe increase the healing amount on the heals and ward by 5% or so. But the important thing, getting back to what Saffira was saying, we need to lower the cast and recast on them, along with the power cost.</P> <P> </P> <P>I would say if the casts on the heal and ward were 1 second instead of 2, then the interrupt problems would reduced. Then, id saw lower the cast on the single heal to 4 seconds, so its 5 seconds between heals, and lower the recast of the ward to 10 seconds. At the same time, cut the power cost at least in half. For me to cast 1 heal or ward, costs me about 5% of my power. That is part of the power efficiency problem. In a 30 second fight, I may cast my ward twice, thats 10% of my power, I cast my single heal once to top off my hp, thats 15%. So I used 15% of my power to utilize my tanking..."specialty"... anyway, I used 15% to tank better, though I have bout 3700 power when I was testing this, but still. The warrior on the other hand, can cast thier self mit buff, for 46 power, which is what...1%?... and that will last the whole fight.</P> <P>So, cut the power cost of every heal and ward by 50%, including the group heal and sacrament. That reminds me, sacrament, 2 second cast, 3 minute recast. I dunno of many occasions where I did get that to go off when I needed it to... though ussually I got 3-8 mobs wailing on me at those moments.</P> <P> </P>

[Jakub]

<P>Hey guys real quick just wanted to point out some stuff and be on my way</P> <P> </P> <P>Pallies are a great class. I can tank everything with mine just about even a few raid mobs. I love that we can heal and ward (just got my master ward). DPS is lacking somewhat but I made up for that by going down the INT AA line putting 8 points in spell crit. (thats a 63% increase in crits sports fans)  Anyway, a guild leader and myself were talking about stuff and it was agreed that my pally is pretty worthless in a raid, my spot could go to a dps toon-which i agreed with the most i do is throw my ward on the MT and the rescue heal from time to time. My DPS is better due to my AA choices and my gear is good but the fact remains that pallies have no real RAID use. For groups pallies rock it hard and I will still use my pally for the next expansion and he will still be my main becuase i love the class so much.</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway on to the wish list- its a long one so sit tight.</P> <P> </P> <P>ALL I WANT SOE, IS THE ABILITY TO USE THAT LAST CONCENTRATION SPOT! GIVE ME A SWEET RAID/GROUP BUFF!!!!!!!</P> <P>Come on guys we have it pretty good. Sure our class helm is lame looking and we dont get a mitigation buff like guards but lets just pick a battle we can win. Give us a purpose for raids!</P> <P>So thats all I want really. until i get this ill be grinding out a useful class to my guildies, a troub....blah</P> <P> </P> <P>Statik</P> <P> </P>

[MeridianR]

Raid Wise:DPS - I can put out over 1k dps on named encounters, granted I am geared good but it is very possibleTank - I can tank anything in the game (with the exception of Chel'drak / Matron) with the proper setupUtility - meh non-really other then rezzing, and leave that to the dirgesHeals - shorter casting time (and make Reverent Sacrament group wide or something), and a moving ward would be niceGroup Wise:We are fine, no changes are neededSolo Wise:We are middle of the pact, with the right gear selection we can do pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good (blue heroics / named, orange solo, etc) but a standard player is middle of the pact.As you can tell, I mainly care about us in regards to raiding.  In the same group as a Guardian during Tarinax last night I had 14k HP and 6100 mitigation....great HP, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty MIt....I would glady give us 1k HP for Unshakeable, or something comparable to that.<div></div>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pathin Merrithay wrote:<div></div> <p>Shorten heal casting times. Shorten recast times. Make them CA's and thusly castable on the move. If our wards/heals are going to compensate for our lack of mitigation then make them really count. </p><hr></blockquote>Sounds like a good plan of attack to me!</div>

[Anzak]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:As you can tell, I mainly care about us in regards to raiding.  In the same group as a Guardian during Tarinax last night I had 14k HP and 6100 mitigation....great HP, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty MIt....I would glady give us 1k HP for Unshakeable, or something comparable to that.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm decently geared though not as wll as I would like.  But self buffed (including Potions and food) I can hit 9K HP that is with the spear buff and dragon scale shoulders buff.  But I'm just below 5K mit.  The thing is a that a guard is in the same set up is still only going to be 100-200 behind me.  But they will be at 5500 Mit.  100-200HP will not make up that difference.And stop looking at the heal.  Everyone goes on and on about our heals.  Heck warrirors use it as a reason why they should have more mitigation.  The only heal I think that should be even looked at is our self heal.  It needs to be balanced with a guardian's self mitigation buff.  So if you take say 5500 Mit as the base.  Give both guard and pally 5500 to start (add group buffs as normal) Then take the hardest hitting mob.  Now look at how much damage will be reduced by the guards mitigation buff for 30 seconds.  Yeah it is going to be a lot.  Then Make our heal equal that amount give it a 1 second or instant cast time and reduce the recast to 90 seconds to match the guard mit buff recast.  There now both classes reduce the amount of damage they take by the same amount over the same time frame.  Though Guards still do it better because none of their buff is wasted where if we pop our heal at the wrong time some could be wasted not to mention we would have to wait until our HP drops a fair amount to use this so we would not be using it every time it is up like a guard would be able to do.  So while it is balance it still favors the guard.  That is the only change our healing needs.  Our other heals are must less important in the overall scheme of things if this change where made.   Now here is the problem with that.  If our self heal were made that strong we would be insanely powerful in solo/group situations.  So that can not be the solution.  So now we are back to we need something that offsets a guards self mitigation buff.The core of the problem is that mitigation is the most important thing in tanking any raid mob.  Between AA mitigation and Mitigation buffs warriors are clearly better at this than any other class.  Heals and utility aside, when even in the best gear possible a warrior will have 320+ more mitigation on you there is no way you are the best choice for any raid mob.  Situational tanking needs to be a reality.  Resists need to become more important and not so easily capped.  That 1600 extra resist we get in defensive stance should be meaningful to the point of certain mobs will be really hard unless you throw the right tank at it.  This will actually open thing up even better for pallies.  Sure Guards will have heat and zerkers cold and both of them will be good at melee.  But Pallies will be good at divine and magic which there almost no divine anyway.  But on top of that pallies will be better pinch tanks if you don't have the right tank class for a mob a pally will be a better option since we have higher wisdom and thus better base resists.  This will balance out the fact that most mobs will be high melee so these resist mobs will be where a pally can step up and shine over a warrior.But honestly I don't see any of that happening.  SOE has clearly shown that they favor warriors as the main raid tanks and the how situational tanking idea has been thrown out the window.  Look at the track record.  T5 Guards completely owned tanking.  They had 100% agro control there mitigation was on top and with buff stacking they could cap avoidance as well.  They were basically invincable.  SOE saw the problem, so in T6 they leveled the playing field a bit.  Gave crusaiders some items to give them slightly higher base mitigation to make up for the temp mitigation buffs a guard gets.  Resists on the stances seemed like a good idea though really did not mean much on most mobs.  Then gaurds threw a fit because while they were still slightly better at tanking it was too close and most any other tank could do just as well with the right gear and in fact many could now hold agro better.  So what happens We get a nerf to amends with the statement that it needed room to grow yet we do not get an upgrade to it because it is % based and so has to have a limit somewhere (oh wait but I thought that is why it got nerfed so it could grow in the next tier)  And then in T7 We get warriors getting not only the advantage from temp buffs but also in base mitigation where we should really have the advantage in base to make up for the temp buffs.  Oh wait that would be class balance.  And don't even get me started on Tsunami effects since now not only is their AA one better than ours for raid mobs but they also get a click effect one from an item that we can't even get.  So here it is, T5 Guards rule raid mobs others complain.  T6 Things get balanced to a pretty good point though guards still have the advantage, guards complain.  T7 every other class takes it up the rear so guards can be back in this role that they seem to think should belong to only them.To be 100% honest unless SOE does something to balance raid tanking soon I don't think I'm going to be around it is completely insane that they give us this line about all fighters being able to tank with guards being slightly better on average but there are situations for all.  Yet when you look at raid tanking there is no situation where a guard is not the best choice.  There is no balance here it is SOE pushing guards to the top of the heap with a good amount of padding so there is no question who is better.</div>

[Anzak]

Sorry for the double post.   Just want to say sorry about the rant up there.  I get a little hot under the collar about all this at times and I think I just kinda exploded there.  No hard feelings towards any of the suggestions above that I may disagree with.  I was just venting I guess.  Though I feel my point is still valid.  I do honestly think Steel has the right idea though.~250 Mit on common crafted Censer~300 Mit on Rare crafted Censer~350-450 Mit on Raid droped Censer  So maybe a more common one would have 350 where a rare one would be 450This would balance the mitigation issue back out and give us a slight mit advantage on the base which we should to counter balance the mitigation buffs warriors have.<div></div>

[RaistNA]

Interesting Phov, after reading ur post and recomparing our HP after last night im a little closer then i expected (when i compare 'self buffed' i dont use short duration item buffs, food/drink or potions)  With that said RAID buffed in the MT group i sit at about 5.7k miti and 12kish HP without food/drink, and without using my dragonhide pauldrons and no potions. Now i have a general question, after late night talks with my guilds guardian i notice a difference between the classes that to me is a larger impact then the Miti.  Our avoidance.  Am i the only pally with low avoidance overall?  I know my agi is crappy for my level (last night after leaving the raid i discovered im at 197 agi out of group).  That puts me at 48.2% avoidance with qeynos guard on, and 49.2 with draconic deflector on (wait....shouldnt that be the other way around?  huh..)  IMO i would rather see an AA line with + to deflection, parry, blocking, or plain avoidance.  My defense is usually near capped, but my parry is very very low. So my question is this, as paladins, would we rather have an extra few hundred miti, or an extra 5-10% avoidance from AA's? Persinally im more for avoidance. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<DIV>The reason our Avoidance is lower is because a Warriors Defensive stance has +parry added to it, where we get +wisdom.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Balanced....no, but that is how it is <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid group (with a Dirge) my Avoid sits at 62-65% depending on other classes / specific gear</DIV>

[Anzak]

Yeah but many guards are giving up some of their avoidance by taking a buckler to get better agro control with the extra DPS they get.  But this is another reason why our base mitigation should be slightly higher.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

<DIV>Neither of the Guards in my guild are using a Buckler....sure some are, but I think the majority of people are still using a Tower Shield</DIV>

[Anariale]

<DIV>Meh, 1K DPS or 4-5% avoidance against a lvl 70 non-epic...</DIV> <DIV>Kinda an easy decision there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and that DPS parse is comical.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is for all the trash in HoS.  Not our best run, but *shrug* its what I got.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Allies: (34:41) 33037286 | 15875.68 [Preynar-Fusion-26402]<BR>Furyk DMG 2333011 -- EXTDPS 1121.10 -- HEALED 0 -- Brigand<BR>Approved DMG 2259550 -- EXTDPS 1085.80 -- HEALED 0 -- Ranger<BR>Ceriaton DMG 2209211 -- EXTDPS 1061.61 -- HEALED 0 -- Swashbuckler<BR>Athieren DMG 2155121 -- EXTDPS 1035.62 -- HEALED 60204 -- Necromancer<BR>Preynar DMG 2105094 -- EXTDPS 1011.58 -- HEALED 712 -- Wizard<BR>Normack DMG 2067894 -- EXTDPS 993.70 -- HEALED 3587 -- Monk<BR>Nomak DMG 2016705 -- EXTDPS 969.10 -- HEALED 0 -- Ranger  <<< Ran out of Arrows<BR>Kall DMG 1983885 -- EXTDPS 953.33 -- HEALED 10289 -- Dirge<BR>Squal DMG 1958847 -- EXTDPS 941.30 -- HEALED 1066 -- Warlock<BR>Darton DMG 1843866 -- EXTDPS 886.05 -- HEALED 7700 -- Guardian<BR>Cyberhawk DMG 1788583 -- EXTDPS 859.48 -- HEALED 0 -- Brigand<BR>Torio DMG 1455674 -- EXTDPS 699.51 -- HEALED 0 -- Zerker<BR>Pidgin DMG 1453301 -- EXTDPS 698.37 -- HEALED 8182 -- Dirge<BR>Darkimus DMG 1288520 -- EXTDPS 619.18 -- HEALED 35566 -- Shadowknight<BR>Keno DMG 1171149 -- EXTDPS 562.78 -- HEALED 3306 -- Coercer<BR>Vylia DMG 1127488 -- EXTDPS 541.80 -- HEALED 0 -- Illusionist<BR>Teare DMG 999791 -- EXTDPS 480.44 -- HEALED 0 -- Illusionist<BR>Dujoaki DMG 929245 -- EXTDPS 446.54 -- HEALED 46879 -- Pally<BR>Raago DMG 589539 -- EXTDPS 283.30 -- HEALED 153542 -- Fury<BR>Tophu DMG 418575 -- EXTDPS 201.14 -- HEALED 253531 -- Defiler<BR>Nermal DMG 330325 -- EXTDPS 158.73 -- HEALED 250907 -- Inquisitor<BR>Thornja DMG 178672 -- EXTDPS 85.86 -- HEALED 215822 -- Warden << Half-Raid<BR>Haidden DMG 143937 -- EXTDPS 69.17 -- HEALED 234895 -- Warden<BR>Larconzor DMG 117784 -- EXTDPS 56.60 -- HEALED 258154 -- Mystic<BR>Rapack DMG 111519 -- EXTDPS 53.59 -- HEALED 112199 -- Templar << Half Raid</FONT><!-- google_ad_section_end --></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Anariale on <SPAN class=date_text>08-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:34 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:47 PM</span>

[Gwydion20]

Make heals and ward % based, lower the cast time and recast is the way to go for me, raising our mit to be on par with warriors is just becoming a warrior, and we are paladins.

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>With Liveupdate 27 coming thru test server, i think we can officially request to have our fear immunity AA choice replaced with something more useful.  With the ability of using a potion to cure your fear, fear being reduced in effectiveness with its snare, plus a few other tweaks implemented in the last few patches.   Wacky idea i had was if they refuse to acknowledge the bug in our power pool generation where one stats capped capps the the other for figuring in power per wis or str stat, they need to have a percentage based power cost reduction AA across the board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For Example the end wisdom ability AA that costs 8 AA would yield a 25% power cost for each spell/combat art a crusader casts.  Dont increase our power pool like we were promised, then decrease our power used if we decide to go that path.  That coupled with a 1 second cast time on our self heal and a recast time of 2 minutes would help us be more effective.  The devs said before they wish not to change or create more spells percentage base, so i dont think we can get that.  I would love it tho if lay on hands line was 80% heal  or self heal was percentage too, but not holding my breath on that...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Rocksthemic]

An AA that reduced our power costs across the board would rock. You're right about them not introducing another % based anything, so I wouldn't hold my breath for that <span>:smileysad:</span> I think something that would help immensely in raid situations is a buff similar to temp mit buffs. This buff wouldn't give mitigation, however, but a VAST increase in focus ability that would make it nigh impossible to interrupt you. Perhaps with a 1 minute duration and a 2 minute recast timer. This would still give beserkers and guardians an edge (as they can keep thier mitigation boosted 2/3 of the time) In addition, they are gaining additional mitigation which helps them. But a paladin is supposed to be able to use thier heals to offset the incoming damage from a raid mob. We cannot do that being interrupted every time we try and cast. This would allow them to keep current cast/refresh timers on spells (although I can agree we would all like to see those tweaked as well) and not break solo or group play, as this wouldn't give a paladin a huge advantage in those situations. Thundaarr Unrest <Nightcap> <div></div>

[Caetrel]

Paladins can hit it in raids no doubt.  DPS is the last thing we need.  Followed by more muddy, middle of the road utility.  Our deficency is in the tanking department.  Whether help comes in the form of mit or avoidance-type abilities, that's what we need.  Our snap aggro is subpar, but in general we have adequate aggro tools to deal with a 15k+ dps raid and that's fine.  I would worry that any boost in dps or aggro control comes at the expense of what we really need. <div></div>

[JarredDarque]

<P>Here is my problem with our wards/heals vs warriors mitigation buffs</P> <P>Mitigation buffs are passive spells.  Most of theirs are permanent spells, and one or two are semi-active (has to be recast)</P> <P>Wards and heals are active spells</P> <P> </P> <P>What I mean is this.  Their mit buffs are always there, and always works at the same efficency.  Once they cast it, it will work if they are stunned, their mitigation cannot be interupted, does not cost them any power when they use that mitigation.</P> <P>Our counter-point to their extra mitigation cannot be used when stunned,  which does happen  a good bit as MT..especially in HoF.  We can be very easily interupted,  wasting alot of time, and often those interupts are responsible for my deaths.  And every time we have to heal or ward ourself, we burn more of our power.   On top of that.  We can cast a heal, and when it goes off, can heal us for barely anything,  only a few hundred points.  on the same note,  it can heal for alot,  but It seems to heal for very little more often.  Where as mitigation buffs will always mitigate the same percentage.</P> <P> </P> <P>The only adcantage that our  heals seem to help us more than their mitigation is in a zone where you are overgeared for.   such as HoF.  A pally can be single healed in there easier than a guard.  Put me in Nizara though, and I am sure that both pally and gaurd will require 2 healers  (may not, have not been there yet, only heard, and not going till I am over 5200 mitigation solo)  </P> <P> </P> <P>A start for fixing this un-balance is this.  Make our heals/wards un-interuptable and make our heals heal for the same amount every time.  and replace our AA heal-crit line with something else.  BTW  makeing LoH heal for more than 25-30% of my health would make it actaully useful.</P>

[ChopStix]

<P>i'm not replying to jarred, just my general thoughts, which most might think or stupid, but whatever....</P> <P> </P> <P>ok when you first pick your character we fit in a tier of fighters? correct? being we fit in that class our main things should be dps, and mitigation, with healing being the last thing...</P> <P> </P> <P> when i'm in a raid i concentrate on keeping the main tank warded, making sure he has health,trying to keep my dps up and as close to an average as i can.. lastly i worry about is keeping everyone else healed, if i see someone go down especially a healer he gets priority attention..</P> <P> </P> <P> our heals are weak almost to the point thier close to being irrelavant in a raid, yes we can heal, our group heal is too weak at the master1 level to be worthwhile in a raid, our single target heal is nothing pretty much in a raid.. celestial touch can and will save the complete raid group..  so the healing is pretty much lef tto healers in my opinion, and yes i heal in a raid but as to anyone else knows its not alot of healing we're doing but it helps... the problem i have this burns up power, along with most of our other spells...  i was in a raid with 3 other pallies and we were the ones always running out of power first, now that being said either all 3 of us didnt know what we were doing or our power useage is way off, i tend to think the second...  this is because i was timing my spells out between auto attacks, and trying to be as efficient as i could be, it just didnt matter... you look at your power opposed to a gaurdians at the end of a fight, ours would be drained completely, and the gaurdian and zerker was down to 20%, and then you look at the parse and all 3 pallies were in about the same range with eachother, but the gaurdian and zerker out dps'ing all of us....   i know a beserker gets the end aa skill in the stamina/buckler line something to do with less power usage....</P> <P>thats what i think we need,some type of mana usage buff, we by no means are nukers to whomever stated that, we dont have any high damage spells whatsoever, but the spells we have suck the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] out of our mana pool and dont do alot of burst dps, but alot of small damage over an entire fight our dot, and consecrate which is basicly a dot...  if we're in a multi monster engagement consecrate adept3 is your best friend, i fire that up and, continue on, and shut it down when i'm at about 25% and then the pallies dps is on par with other tanks....  if its a single monster i dont use consecrate, just my choice, plus usually your waiting on the recast timer...  i'm in no means saying that i'm running my mana down with consecrate every fight, as sometimes i dont use it and even then our mana just gets sucked away anywhere between 15-20% from a gaurdian or zerker...</P> <P> </P> <P> as for a weapon i think we almost need one with a 4 second delay with a high damage rating, possibly even 5 or 6 second delay and use our haste in the strength aa line, and go to melee crits and int crits in the aa's, as alot have stated previously, i'm not familiar with raid drop weapons but something like the ghostly axe of blyze along that line but better.. i know this would maximize what dps we have, and throw in some flowing thought items and we would rock and roll at a slow pace... i dont feel we're meant to be a main tank ,i dunno, i do know i'm glad i didnt play a paladin pre-nerf as i heard we were completely hands down the badarse tanks of eq2...then we got hit by the nerf developers....</P> <P>i think we could have 10-15% more dps on average then we would be getting close...or an adjustment to our power pool/ power usage and that would probably make up for it also...</P> <P>as far as plate class tanks go ,we do need an adjustment, a tad bit more mit, and more dps or power usage adjustment and i would be satisfied.. </P> <P>i know alot of you have read my posts thinking gawd this guy [Removed for Content]'s and moans alot, but you read other posts by different people and you hear the same thing.. i have had people reply to me on a couple of posts i made saying we're fine and turn around the next day and read them gripeing about the same thing, thats what i find funny...</P> <P>thanks for reading, later</P> <P>Vox</P> <P>danlar lvl70 paladin 50aa's</P> <P>dandrink lvl 31 ranger dunno how many aa's- pvp only toon</P> <P>danzer lvl21 beserker 1aa point, basicly my main except for raids/my reroll..</P>