Paladins in PvP

[Vathranen]

<DIV>I made this post under another thread but I felt like I wanted to throw it out here for everybody. It's a list of reasons why Paladin's aren't that good in PvP but followed by a list of things I think would help the class be more useful and/or desirable in PvP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm 68 and my gear is far from great, but it's serviceable. I'm close to what you all prescribed as necessary to be called "tank". The issue isn't so much class imbalances as is it mechanics of the game. As someone already said - this game wasn't made for PvP. Classes can't be balanced. It was my fault (and yours) for choosing the wrong class for PvP. Here is a list of reasons why Paladin is a poor choice for PvP: <P>1) Low damage output. This is because Paladins get healing. I've actually been main healer for my group several times as many healers dropped out in the high levels to reroll as scouts. You can't have high defense, decent healing, and high damage in one package. (Though you can have tracking, safe fall, stealth, high defense, and high offense in one package but that's another can of worms)</P> <P>2) Resist rates in Tier 7. PvP in tier 7 is broken. The gear you start getting at level 60 has such high resists on it that many mages drop out of PvP and reroll as scouts. The one class that a Paladin excells against is a non-pet mage. Sadly I haven't seen one in a very long time. Doubled with this is the fact that half of the Paladin's offense comes in the form of spells. Fortunately nobody bothers with divine resistance because the only classes that use it are the lowest DPS ones.</P> <P>3) Damage scaling (offense vs. defense). When I played PvE I noticed that at level 50+ the mobs' hitpoints started increasing exponentially (seemed like) but so did the offense of the DPS classes. They tried to tone this down for PvP but it didn't work. The high damage hits didn't get toned down enough and the low damage hits stayed the same. You won't be one-shot by Decapitate, but it'll get you close enough to red that you have no hope of healing back up and winning. My ward at Adept 3 is 1300 and I crit it almost all the time from the INT AA line. 1300 is 1 combat art from an assassin or bruiser and two from any other class. It takes longer to cast than it does to punch through.</P> <P>4) Heals lowered for PvP. In PvP heals got lowered as well as damage output. However, they overdid it. Heals are reduced by more than 20% (I don't know if ward also got reduced, mine has never lasted long enough to really tell). Two healers can't keep a group alive if the attackers have more than one scout and one mage. And there's always more than one scout. Couple this issue with the <STRONG>long</STRONG> cast times on heals in addition to the huge animation that says, "I'm casting a heal, come interrupt me!" healing in PvP is somewhat of an oxymoron.</P> <P>4a) Without getting into a Shadowknight vs. Paladin discussion one things needs to be said here. Lay on Hands got toned down. Harm Touch did not. Harm Touch also gets a bonus from INT and says in its description "Very difficult to resist."</P> <P>5) Interrupts. 2/3 of the Paladin's arts are spells of either healing or damage. Both have animations that are very easy to see and hear and have casting times that are quite long enough to stop. With the new changes to stuns you can be stunned an entire fight, never even getting a single spell off. This happens to me often with the plethora of bruisers out there.</P> <P>6) Taunting capability. All other fighters' auto-taunt buff works in PvP. Monks can force their target to fight them exclusively with Dragon Stance. Berserkers and Guardians proc a taunt nearly every time they're hit. The Paladin's Amends and the Shadowknight's Tainted Caress line (I think that's what it's called) are both broken for PvP. Tainted Caress does nothing at all and Amends gives the target a 5% chance to proc a taunt from the Paladin when struck in PvP. Worthless. Normal taunts last 3 seconds no matter how upgraded and get resisted terribly in tier 7.</P> <P>I'm not discussing 1:1 PvP as a Paladin as that's just foolish. But even in a group I'd rather be <EM>any</EM> other class as I'd feel like I could contribute something other than being an extra target. You'll spend an entire fight just trying in vain to heal yourself and your group but it's really an uphill battle. On one hand you want to taunt and try to save your group but on the other you know it won't last long, and it'll only mean you can't do anything yourself while you get the beatdown. If there's another tank such as a berserker then you're freed up to do a bit more but I honestly feel any other class would be better suited to any role that a Paladin could do.</P> <P>I think that the source of the problem is that the Paladin is one of the only true hybrid classes and neither tanking nor healing work very well in PvP so when you water both down and put them in one class you've got a lame duck.</P> <P>Our only saving grace is Doom Judgement. That attack is so good in PvP <EM>if it lands.</EM></P> <P><EM>EDIT: I also want to add that it's not too bad until post 50. Most classes work pretty well until then, but after 50 the damage scales up so fast that there's really no reason to play anything other than a DPS class.</EM></P> <P><EM>EDIT2: I'd like to throw in here that PvP servers are completely different than dueling on a PvE server. Many rules and CA's change for PvP but primarily in a duel you're in a very small radius and the scouts can't run away and stealth like they can (and do) on PvP servers.<BR></EM></P> <P>Then here's my follow up post.</P> <P>I have been told that maybe I focus a little too much on the negative, so here are a few ideas that I think would help make the Paladin a little better in PvP, give the class some individuality, but not overpower the class.</P> <P>1) The first AA point needs to be changed from <EM>+20 focus when under 50% health</EM> to <EM>immune to stun/interrupt effects when under 50% health</EM>. The AA as it is works fine for PvE where the mob's stuns and interrupts are sporadic, but it does nothing at all to help against Cheap Shot or one of the many kicks Bruisers get.</P> <P>2) The last AA point in the Wisdom line should be a group immunity to Fear effects in a radius around the Paladin. This would emulate the ability that Paladins get in 3rd ed. D&D and certainly fits in well with the class. This would be a very class defining ability as there are many Freeport classes that get fear and would be thwarted with a Paladin in the group. As it is now I don't think <EM>anybody</EM> has taken or will take the power.</P> <P>3) Amends needs to be changed to 100% chance to proc a taunt from the Paladin when the target is struck. IE - an Assassin comes up and Decapitates the Mage but then gets taunted onto the Paladin. The mage may still die but if he doesn't then the Assassin is dealing with the Paladin instead and can't finish the job.</P> <P>4) Give us back our nuke on the run. This ability was in no way overpowered and should never have been taken away. Warriors and Brawlers have a taunt that interrupts, is instant cast, ranged, and can even be used while stunned. All of these classes also get ranged auto attack which is immensely important in PvP when you're trying to chase down a runner. The Grizzfazzle bow does quite a lot of damage just from ranged auto attack; more than Decree/Brimstone.</P> <P>5) Detect Evil. This is something that Paladins have had in many games throughout the genre. I'm thinking it could be like the racial vision types except it wouldn't alter anything visually. You'd just get a red glowing outline on any Freeporter that you see whether they're in stealth, invis, or just standing around. I'm thinking it would look like players look when stealthed except in red instead of gray. It could be on a 1 minute recast timer with a duration of maybe 20 seconds, or a 5 minute recast with duration 1 minute. This would give Paladins some kind of a use and a defense when out alone and actually fits quite well with the class. Obviously shadowknights would likewise get a Detect Good ability. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't templars get this as a fun spell? Does anyone know if it works in PvP? Templars are more rare than spongy loam on Venekor or I'd ask one myself. I think this would fall under the "PvP Only" category as it wouldn't affect anything in PvE but would be class defining in PvP.</P> <P>Notice I'm not asking for any extra damage as I don't feel that's what Paladins do. I think we could use a little bump in potency but these issues are far more glaring and preventing the class from performing as well as it should against other classes or when compared to peer classes.</P> <P> </P> <P>EDIT: The reason Doom Judgement is so powerful is because it removes beneficial buffs from targets. I try to use it when my enemies are bunched up at the beginning of the fight to remove as many of their buffs as I can. This can and does turn the tide of a fight because missing some crucial buffs can be crippling to a group. I have mine Adept III and it removes 112 levels of buffs (I think).</P></DIV>

[ChopStix]

<P>i agree , paladins need something..</P> <P> </P> <P> if we dont , this class will be forgotten on the pvp servers!!..</P>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>sighs.  as a pvping pally they are great </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i can solo a scout 4 lvl higher i can win about 75 percent of my encounters with an even con player</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when you use a pally right they are very very very good.  im on vox and i have no problem finding a group to play</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>first WARDS i have a 700plus ward castable every 24 seconds i have a group heal of about 700 i have a self heal of  600 and1300 i have an instant heal of 2k.  we have i can where some awesome MIT/ resist armor most of my resist when buffed are 2500 and higher.  my mit is at 2400 when buffed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>learn when to use your spells and a pally is very very deadly.  after all someone would have to do almost 2k damage to get pastr my wards and and normal heals befroe i can cast ward again</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GET good gear and adept three on your spells </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps i was a champ but got ganked by a raid 3 times so lost it agian but after tonight it will be mine </DIV><p>Message Edited by holypaladin2819 on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:14 PM</span>

[ChopStix]

<P>wait til you get in your mid to upper 50's, and see how you do, every other class's dps goes up and through the roof..  yours doesnt... totally different ballgame..  you better be looking for fabled gear only, because the general items arent going to be of any use to you.. wait until you run into an assasin and shadow knight, or 2 assasins at the same time, you wont get the ward off, sorry to say, and the heals are pretty useless with interupts every 2 seconds, except for the celestial touch just to prolong the fight until you die..</P> <P>i did see a mid 40's paladin with all fabled gear,must have been you.. but i dont see it helping much in the higher tiers, when every other class's dps/taunts/stuns goes through the roof, and paladins dont.</P> <P>i have cuirass of protection, heavy platemail helm of valor, chitin gauntlets, rezhirzs bracers of the task,pungent chitin spaulders, xego boots and plate leggings,adjutants belt, vitae immortalis, adorment of profecy, moonstone ring of wisdom, acryia band of strength, fashioned acrylia bangle,zorvs wristguard, secondary is orb or enmity, shield is Cliffbase,  blade of bixies...</P> <P>all my heals and my ward are masters.. ca's are mostly adept3 and adept1</P> <P>defensive stance.</P> <P>mitigation-3400</P> <P>avoidance 46%</P> <P>health 6100</P> <P>power 3632</P> <P>resists</P> <P>2985 cold</P> <P>2675 disease</P> <P>4585 divine</P> <P>2500 heat</P> <P>5988 magic</P> <P>3086 mental</P> <P>3380 poison</P> <P> </P> <P>would like to reset my aa's, but dont think i'm going to mess with it at this point, have just about given up on the paladin class..</P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:19 PM</span>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>lvl 68 master1 devotion ,- wards target of 1376 of all damage...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a lvl70 assasin laughs at that with decapitate doin like 7500-10,000 melee damage, plus thier attack speed and recast times are cut in half with aa points.. and i've ran into sk's and won some and lost some, i just dont like it they get an evac and we dont, and i dont like the sk's life drain, that add's to thier life, might as well be a heal over time while doing damage to you in the process.. seems unbalanced to me..</DIV>

[ChopStix]

and kalgore, your kill to death ratio arent much different than mine, your at 2.38, i'm at 2.36... you'll see what i'm talking about when you get past lvl 60 ;]

[ChopStix]

the only paladin that impress's me goes by the name Thunder.. evidently he's figured it out..

[Zo]

Grass is always greener syndrome in this post. Reroll if you want an I-win button or you're not a team player. PVP is more in one's group makeup and communication than whether one is a Zerker or a Pally. A class in PVP is more the player than the CAs.

[Vathranen]

<DIV>While I agree that playstyle is a large factor in a class' performance I completely disagree that Berserker and Paladin are on equal footing in PvP. I've described in great detail why the mechanics support the warrior and brawler classes but punish the Crusader.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I haven't soloed since level 22 as a Paladin, and I've been in Ventrilo with my groups since 35. As I said, there is nothing a Paladin offers a group that some other class can offer more of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly, I have gone to where the grass is greener. I rolled a Swashbuckler and now I win all the time whether solo or grouped, just like everybody else. Is this how you want EQ2 to be?</DIV>

[ChopStix]

<P>thats what ive been saying in this forum for a while, atleast this last month... </P> <P>if soe doesnt do something to a paladin for pvp they will die out alltogether on the pvp servers.. now in a group pve setting a paladin is pretty good with the buffs and ward on the main tank, and the aggro transfer on the healer, and rescue, and sigil, to emergency pull off casters and healers, in combat rez is nice, but this is mostly useful in pve,and my higher lvl guildmates want me in group, especially the healers and wizzys for some reason,but ,pvp is totally different ,a paladin ranks as so so, or less! and i'll vote less after rolling my ranger...</P> <P> </P> <P>  i rolled a ranger for pvp only , hidden shot adept3 does 500-800 and has actually hit for over 1500 damage, ive one shotted fp's with hidden shot adept3, at lvl 28, if you look at the stats for dandrink ranger, vox server ..... my 69 pally doesnt hit that hard, and thats completely stupid in my opinion.. i've even taken out toons 32 and above with one shot at lvl 28, but if a ranger lets the enemy get to close, its a different ballgame also, thats when they're alot weaker..</P>

[ChopStix]

<P>and zo,</P> <P> </P> <P> you must be ignorant, can you not read?????</P> <P> </P> <P>do i ever say i want a i win button, i didint think so.... what i have stated many times over, for pvp combat the sk definetly has many advantages over a paladin and something should be done to make them class even!!!! that means balanced!!!  if you can read, but evidently you cant so i'll stop typing to you..</P> <P> </P> <P>why do sk's get an evac??  why doesnt a pally??  wheres the paladins heal over time, like the sk gets heal over time while stealing your life in the process?? wheres the paladins high damage spell such as the sk gets?  paladins dont get one, along with the other things i've mentioned,  seems way unbalanced for pvp, i thought the developers made mention of classes being equal, and or, added the pvp check box so they could make them balanced easier, i see thier working diligently [or i really mean indiligently, haha] on this...</P> <P> </P>

[lonethius]

<div></div>Vathranen I'll let you know the same thing as I let the other guy know. Paladins are THE STRONGEST pvp plate tank. I'm gonna address all your concerns now. 1) our damage output is suposed to be low. However this doesn't mean you cant do good damage. Refusal of conviction, joust, and devout strike do well. palis are ment to do about 250-350 DPS. low damage doesnt mean you cant win though. 2) if anything resists being broken is a strength for the paladin. since our mana pool is from STR and WIS you should have a ridiculously high amount of wisdom anyway, which should give you really really good resists. divine resist in t7 gear is the least common one. so you should feel happy all your damage comes from the divine. #2 is a win win for the paladin.3) Scouts dont woop me that hard. yeah decap hurts but i dont think ive ever been droped into orange by it. at least not since ive been 70. the ward is amazing. i have the same version as you and it is really really good. tanks have trouble busting though it and im sure it annoys scouts/mages and ESPECIALLY healers. I also have never been droped into orange by any spell due to my wis being high (just like yours should be)4) your ward does not get reduced in pvp. It is your best friend and the spell you should be casting. Single target heal can be a waste in a 1v1 fight, unless you are at really really low health. I never use healing other than the cool downs in a drawn out fight. if you get interupted every now and then so what, just keep going. i find a good way to keep this from happening is shield bash before a ward and kick before a heal. 4a) ill take LOH over HT any day. I'd rather fully heal my healer/mage from red health than have a sort of 1 shot. (although you should not ever get one shot) All harmtouch does is spoil SK into thinking they are more powerful than they are. You should be able to resist harm tocuh half the time anyway. LOH = unresistable. lol5) see 4 on how to stop getting interupted on heals. our damage spells are pretty fast cast, cept for the refusal line and brimstone. However i have never been interupted out of brimstone to my knowledge, Ive even been knocked back and it will still keep casting. 6) try out sigil of heroism when your group starts taking damage. They wont take much at all for the next 15 seconds, which should give your healers time to get everyone back up to green. clarion cry taunts initially then taunts THREE MORE TIMES without you even having to do anything! also our encounter taunt lowers divine which is super sweet. so we dont get reactive or interupt taunts? big woop, i can interupt a whole entire group with two different spells. and reactive taunts arent that great in PVP cuz anyone who is good at pvp knows not to waste their CAs on guardians.you are correct about paladins not being a good 1v1 class, but all qeynos classes do better in groups. so dont sweat it. doom judgement sucks at lvl 70 =( removes like... one buff... maybemost of your ideas are waaaay too extreme. although i like them <span>:smileywink:</span> 1) immunity to interupt? dont you think that is a little much? lol 50% i can see.2) my good budy kalath has this and loves it lol. although i do think if it was the way you said it, it would be great. it is consistent with the rest of the wis line.3) 100% chance to switch target? wow that would be amazing. no healer would ever die. that is waaaay to much. although i think 5% is too low, 100% is definatly not the answer. sigil does 33% hate transfer pve and 75% chance switching targets in pvp at adt3. I think if it was scaled to that it would be nice. for example 42% transfer in pvp might equal like... 20% chance in pvp (because it is a lasting buff, sigil only lasts 15 seconds)4) again that is a really neat idea but is too overpowered. it would grant us a complete see stealth/invis at all times. way to overpowered. and i think your local owl/butterfly totem merchant would be pretty [Removed for Content] too <span>:smileytongue:</span> I think this idea might be viable as a self buff that only lastest 30 seconds or so. re-usable every 3 minutes maybe. <div></div><p>Message Edited by lonethius on <span class=date_text>08-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 PM</span>

[Vathranen]

<P>Well you win. I guess I just suck. Or you run with an extremely amazingly good group. I get interrupted and die. That's it. I rarely live through the duration of the stun, let alone have time to cast a ward. I try to kick and then ward but it doesn't work as stuns don't last long enough and then I'm stun-locked afterward.</P> <P>Ah well I give up. It seems there are a few Paladin who enjoy their class in PvP and I'm willing to let them enjoy it as-is. As for me, I'm retiring the lesson in frustration that playing a Paladin is and turning to my alts.</P>

[ElctSocket]

At lvl 28 I still haven't encountered a SK solo so I haven't been able to analyze but it seems like SK=pally with the healing since they basically have a constant regrowth on them that equals about the same as our heals in the end. The big difference is their dps...I agree though that a lot of classes should be nerfed or pallys need to be made a little better. And btw, when do SK get evac? lvl 44 instead of a rez?<div></div>

[Vathranen]

<P>Yeah Shadowknights get evac at 44 as counterpart to the Paladin's rez. Another point I'd like to make is that Shadowknight feign death is castable on a group mate - its primary use isn't to save the Shadowknight but to clear aggro from a friend. I believe it's also on a long recast - 5 mins if I recall correctly.</P> <P>I played a Shadowknight on PvE just to compare the difference with my main Paladin. I got him to 42 I think. The big thing about Shadowknights is their efficiency. Their lifetaps are not quite as potent as the Paladin's heal/ward combo, but it's far more power efficient when soloing and the reactive lifetap can be cast on a group mate for off-tanking. There are a few smaller things to consider as well. Their reactive lifetap has the same cast time as our heal/ward. However, their lesser lifetaps are basic attacks and have faster cast times, some are even instant-cast melee attacks. Furthermore, as said before, their damage from lifetaps benefit from INT. I have also read that Shadowknights only have to do the spell damage crit line for AA to get crits on their lifetap heals. I have not confirmed this.</P> <P>In a nutshell the Paladin is more versatile in its ability to play a healer class when needed (hybrid) while the Shadowknight is more self-serving and offensive with the lifetaps (kind of fits doesn't it?).</P> <P>This works great for PvE but the problems start to arise in PvP. We see in PvP that Harm Touch is not reduced in potency while Lay on Hands is, and Harm Touch still gets a bonus from INT. The Shadowknight's CAs are combo damage and heal while the Paladin's CAs are seperated out for offense or healing and as such take much longer to cast. When you throw in evac and snare for the Shadowknight - very powerful PvP tools - the Paladin rez starts to dull by comparison.</P>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>and kalgore, your kill to death ratio arent much different than mine, your at 2.38, i'm at 2.36... you'll see what i'm talking about when you get past lvl 60 ;] </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> lvl 30 i had 150 pvp kills and 300 pvp deaths........now im at 920 kills 388 deaths.  i have no problem getting nice kill streaks going and seeing how i can hold my own witha  lvl 52 most of the time i dont really worry about it.  IMHO pallys kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] </DIV>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>Vathranen I'll let you know the same thing as I let the other guy know. Paladins are THE STRONGEST pvp plate tank. I'm gonna address all your concerns now. <BR><BR>1) our damage output is suposed to be low. However this doesn't mean you cant do good damage. Refusal of conviction, joust, and devout strike do well. palis are ment to do about 250-350 DPS. low damage doesnt mean you cant win though. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>our damage out put is low yes but thats balanced with the foe having to cause huges amount of damage to kill us again wards and heals are very useful</FONT><BR><BR>2) if anything resists being broken is a strength for the paladin. since our mana pool is from STR and WIS you should have a ridiculously high amount of wisdom anyway, which should give you really really good resists. divine resist in t7 gear is the least common one. so you should feel happy all your damage comes from the divine. #2 is a win win for the paladin.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>also we have the taunts that drop divine resist by quite a bit  so all that damage will be even stronger</FONT><BR><BR>3) Scouts dont woop me that hard. yeah decap hurts but i dont think ive ever been droped into orange by it. at least not since ive been 70. the ward is amazing. i have the same version as you and it is really really good. tanks have trouble busting though it and im sure it annoys scouts/mages and ESPECIALLY healers. I also have never been droped into orange by any spell due to my wis being high (just like yours should be)</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>the ward IMO is used as a buffer throw it up and fire off the heals use it samrt and that 1300 can save you</FONT><BR><BR>4) your ward does not get reduced in pvp. It is your best friend and the spell you should be casting. Single target heal can be a waste in a 1v1 fight, unless you are at really really low health. I never use healing other than the cool downs in a drawn out fight. if you get interupted every now and then so what, just keep going. i find a good way to keep this from happening is shield bash before a ward and kick before a heal. </DIV> <DIV>e<FONT color=#ff3300>xactly </FONT><BR><BR>4a) ill take LOH over HT any day. I'd rather fully heal my healer/mage from red health than have a sort of 1 shot. (although you should not ever get one shot) All harmtouch does is spoil SK into thinking they are more powerful than they are. You should be able to resist harm tocuh half the time anyway. LOH = unresistable. lol</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>yuppers harm touch cant save an SK's buddy from dying but LOE can nothing like casting it just as a buddy is about to die </FONT><BR><BR>5) see 4 on how to stop getting interupted on heals. our damage spells are pretty fast cast, cept for the refusal line and brimstone. However i have never been interupted out of brimstone to my knowledge, Ive even been knocked back and it will still keep casting. <BR><BR>6) try out sigil of heroism when your group starts taking damage. They wont take much at all for the next 15 seconds, which should give your healers time to get everyone back up to green. clarion cry taunts initially then taunts THREE MORE TIMES without you even having to do anything! also our encounter taunt lowers divine which is super sweet. so we dont get reactive or interupt taunts? big woop, i can interupt a whole entire group with two different spells. and reactive taunts arent that great in PVP cuz anyone who is good at pvp knows not to waste their CAs on guardians.<BR><BR>you are correct about paladins not being a good 1v1 class, but all qeynos classes do better in groups. so dont sweat it. <BR><BR>doom judgement sucks at lvl 70 =( removes like... one buff... maybe<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>very very smart pally posted this everyone should listen to him </DIV><p>Message Edited by holypaladin2819 on <span class=date_text>08-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:45 PM</span>

[Vathranen]

Just enjoy it while it lasts Kalgore. You're in for a nasty surprise at level 50.

[enjoilab]

<P>dunno about you but at lvl 70 the pvp became so much fun to me. one word lets me kill fps before the kill me resists!!! i can not preach it enough!!!</P> <P>if you have resists in pvp you will survive!!! </P>

[Vathranen]

Balios you have to tell me where you're finding all these mage freeps! Do they spawn in Bonemire? Seems like all I keep finding are brigands and bruisers, and you can't resist them. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[enjoilab]

<DIV>let them get in combat use divine aura heal yourself castigate then spam all your CAs with doom judgement keep warding yourself too...and the mages are raiding dont ya know?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>rhone how highs your mit and all your resists?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>have you ever seen a necro before??? theres your mage <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by enjoilabel on <span class=date_text>08-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:02 AM</span>

[Vathranen]

I focus primarily on Disease/Poison resists but all of my resists are 60%+.  Mitigation is 50% give or take. I don't have divine aura maybe I should try it out - I'm mainly focused on grouping so I have INT and WIS lines right now. No, I've never seen a necro - only their pets - and I haven't resisted a necro pet spell yet <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Supernova17]

<blockquote><hr>ChopStix wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>defensive stance.</p> <p>mitigation-3400</p> <p>avoidance 46%</p> <p>health 6100</p> <hr></blockquote>Your mitigation is extremely low for level 70. My alt Pally gets legendary gear from farming instances and some fabled from easy T6 raids: Mitigation: 4408 Avoidance: 46.3% Health: 7283 And raid Paladins equipped in T7 gear can come out with around 5000-5500 self buffed mitigation. <div></div>

[enjoilab]

<P>well i can have the gear to raise all my resists to a point were they dont hurt me nearly enough to kill me right out</P> <P>well my mit is at 4.6k</P> <P>health is 6.9k</P> <P>avo is crappy with 47%</P> <P>but it is very good idea to invest in resist jewelery that is player made and divine aura really made me a pvp machine</P>

[Vathranen]

Okay Balios I'm willing to give Divine Aura a shot. I'll look into the player made resist jewelry but most of mine is hard to beat already. I don't get hurt much from magic, but don't fight magic users much anyway. My problem is brigands and bruisers - too many interrupts to fight back. What other AA points have you chosen? I'm starting to think INT line isn't so good for PvP since I can't get any heals off anyway it's sort of wasted.

[Jaycia]

<P>3 words to the OP Poison & Disease resists. They are your freinds. Get those up over 5k and no necro or warlock will be able to touch you and a Scouts poisons will very rarely proc. Not to mention our arch enemy the sk will be helpless against you as every one of their attacks is disease based.</P> <P>Banthor</P> <P>64 Paladin - Venekor</P> <P><Santuary></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Jayciann on <span class=date_text>08-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:36 PM</span>

[Vathranen]

Yeah I've got 70% disease & poison resist. It's the interrupts that kill me.

[Ramglob]

My opinions come from a SK's point of view.  I find the two classes very similiar from a PVP perspective.  I personally like the SK due to its ability to take down Infamy very quickly but both classes can be a nasty matchup for the opposing side if used properlySolo SK's and Pallies have their difficulty.  Very simply if you don't have track.......you can not PVP effectively solo......it just can't happen.  Track enables classes to pick and choose their fights instead of fights choosing them.  Without track you are a sitting duck for higher level classes to simply gank you.Group Pallies and SK's can be awesome.  Although I am not afraid of fighting a Pally 1 VS 1, I am quite respectful when fighting one in a group.  Pally's can keep themselves alive which makes them a very difficult opponenent once buffs are removed and mitigation is lowered.  Pally's have taunts, stuns, do descent damage ( not great but enough), and can heal very effectively and keep group members alive.  In fact I would say that Sk's and Pally's in group PVP are top 5.  I duo 100% of the time with a Brig.  Both of us are Masters and have become very strong at taking on groups of 2 or 3 equal con opponents.  Pally's make bad matchups for us.  We came across a Monk / Pally combo and thought twice about engaging.  Very bad matchup for an SK / Brig.  I just wanted to give your class some props.  Pally's are a good class, but just have to be used intelligently to be effective.  Master Squiggy SK Nagafen"The Kelly Gang"<div></div>

[Chia_Pet]

People can argue all they want that pallys are just fine, but the proof is in the numbers played.Sorry, they are NOT on par with many other classes at ALL. to Say otherwise is just wishful thinking. facts are facts, and If pallys and other classes were just fine, as some here seem to believe, they would be more numerous and people wouldnt find them so frustrating.The problem here is numbers people, time to cast and time to take damage. the amount of time it takes for many DPS classes to dish out damage as opposed to the pallys and many healers abilities to heal that is Skewed.Add to that the general nerf we have where heals are cut by 20% and you got a real problem.Sorry but a DPS class of the same lvl should DIE to a Tank. just as a mage should DIE to a scout class that gets close, just as a TANK should DIE from a mage if he cant get up close.checks and balances, these are missing currently, which is why there is such a dominating presence of a small amount of classes.<div></div>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>okay im a pvp pally on vox.  im lvl 50 i have 4k life right now.  (need lvl 52 for my next armor) my mit is 2500  all resists are from 2k-4k  my avoid is 45 percent.  16 AA points  used down the INT line  40 % chance for crit damage and 31 % chance for crit heal. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when i use my pally i have  ward thats 700 so 4700 damage needs to be done so then i have an 800 group heal and an 500 single target heal.  i also have that nice 3k IH and another self heal for 1300 so with heals and wards the player needs to do about 9800 in damage before i die and thats only using one ward and heal and i use my ward ever 24 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for attack you need to fire off the tuaunt that lowers divine resist.  as it is most people have very little divine resist i fought someon in the arena that had 300 debuffed it to zero and had my spells hitting for great damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i team witha swashy lvl 47 and we can take done any a single lvl 56 regardless of class 90 percent of the time.  we have yet to lose to another even con duo and have taking out a group of 6 greens and blues like nothing.  the reason the swashy is dps i act as bonus dps and i taunt to take the damage but i can also keep that swashy alive alot longer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as far as going solo casters are dead even if 6 lvl s higher then me.  scouts 60 percent chance to kill if they are even or yellow.  ill go after any green or blue and have a great chance of winning </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ending this anyone that wants to think different just cant play a pally its alot more then just mashing a few buttons with dps you need to have a system and if you want roll a scout on vox and met me in the arena</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV><IMG height=1 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=1 border=0><BR> <P>vathranen wrote</P> <P> </P> <P>Just enjoy it while it lasts Kalgore. You're in for a nasty surprise at level 50.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>been lvl 50 for about a week and guess what 75 kills and only killed 3 times dinged champ but lost it but no big deal i opnly took two fame hits.  your right lvl 50 was difference i can own alot more people</P></DIV>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>kalgore,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> maybe you know how to play the class maybe we dont...  but i'll say youll see a huge difference when you venture into TT, bonemire, and barren sky... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> its a whole new world out there as opposed to ss and ant..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I'll say good luck to you, and dont get too discouraged at your choice of toons...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> i'll say your upper 50's is when you'll notice the drop in your dps,  and the drastic rise in everyother toons dps..  unless your able to get in fabled gear and masters quick and the masters arent very much better than adept3's...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you have the faction i guess you can get the stuff from the supply sergeants.. if you dont, you might consider locking your xp so you can get the faction to get the stuff ,it might help you out alot...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>let me know how it goes for you.... i'm curious... if i'm playing this class wrong i would like to figure it out...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> but from everything youve stated that you do , i was doing 2 months ago,,its nothing new to me, i've tried it all and it doesnt work  ...yea i can last just about longer than any other class on the queynos side,, to just die last..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> you'll notice a big difference of the lvl 70 characters queynos is lacking in general on VoX, the population is so unbalanced it isnt even funny, and its 2 fold in the upper tier.. and go ahead and say it, more targets, nah your just one new target for the other 2 sides...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>08-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:24 PM</span>

[ChopStix]

<P>my ward is t7 master 1370points of all damage absorbed which is long gone in 1/2 of a melee hit if not a 1/3 of a melee hit in t7... </P> <P> </P> <P>adept3's include consecration,brimstone,  devout strike, extinguish will,  refusal of conviction,  castigate, hallowed judgement, ardent belief,call to duty,faithful benediction, relentless wrath, righteous demonstration...</P> <P> </P> <P> masters include devotion ,holy cicle,  and all heals are masters</P> <P>master2 righteousness..</P> <P>adept3 doom judgement, yes it still works in tier7, and i do use it...</P> <P> </P> <P>48 1/2 aa points....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>08-14-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:32 PM</span>

[Vathranen]

Wow you're still at it ChopS? I gave up, just too much of a pain in the plate armor. It looks like there are more Paladins who enjoy their class than those who hate it (here on the forums) so maybe we're just missing something. It could also be that they're happy with what they've got. I don't know about you but I'm always comparing other classes, playing lots of alts, and checking out the entire game. I play a Swashbuckler or a monk and have no trouble at all winning. I play a Paladin and I stand there for a few seconds waving my arms trying to cast spell and being interrupted then killed. Maybe I just can't play the Paladin class.

[ChopStix]

<P>well from what i read kalgore is calling it quits too...  seems like he's starting to see the picture now...</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>why you talking of betraying kalgore?  what a wimp!</P>

[ChopStix]

<P>yea i'm still at it, i want raid gear to see if it helps any.. if it dont ,soe developers will get a nice long nasty letter that they wont read and i'll quit eq2 all together...  vangaurd will be coming out shortly and eq2 needs a makeover badly..</P> <P> </P> <P>pve to boring ,pvp too unbalanced..... seems like every zone in t7 is the same in eq2, i think there are only like three layouts of instances at t7, it gets boring real quick....</P> <P>vox server is so unbalanced from the population aspect its almost unplayable from the queynos side!</P> <P> </P> <P>the adventure pak fallen dynasty, the quests are entirly too difficult for the crap gear you get....</P> <P> </P> <P>if paladins are the holy warriors give them gear that makes them look like a crusader, besides the doofy winged hooluh helmet .........you know the over the shoulder sash with the big cross on it, geez something... and like someone stated a sense of evil for pvp only would be kool, and actually give us a chance, and give us an attribute that sets us apart from other plate class's..</P> <P>fix the gimped hooluk helmet, dont understand why it's so hard to change the lvl of the helmet to 67, like every other class's hat/helmet/hood... we're loosing alot of percentage of mitigation on our class hats and this has been an issue for a long time, and yet still nothing has been done about.......  just about fed up with soe, this game could be so much ,but , its just so so ...</P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>08-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:24 AM</span>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>rofl calling it quits my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] i just became the number one pally on vox for PVP also made the only champion on vox but lost that to 5 lvl 55's.  i stand by the fact's that pallys are badass and the only way im exiling is if my 6 pvp buddies quit.  but that not going to happen at all.  talk is cheap anyway actions are always louder </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>didnt read all the post's i dont go out bymyself i fully undertstand that dps is a problem (casters excluded.) i roll witha swashy i have for 15-20 lvls.  hes the major dps im the taunting heals wards and added DPS </DIV><p>Message Edited by holypaladin2819 on <span class=date_text>08-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:56 PM</span>

[Vathranen]

<P>Ah now I see the secret of Kalgore's success. It's not that Paladins are any good - it's that Swashbucklers are the be all class in EQ2. Kalgore could be any class and do extremely well when duo with a swashbuckler.</P> <P>What I found out after all this time is that scouts don't need a group, but groups needs scouts. So if you're lucky enough to make a good friend with a scout you'll do well in PvP; if not then you're stuck grouping with other fodder classes for opposing scouts. Not a fun set up for those of us without scout buddies.</P> <P>I played a swashbuckler myself for a while but got bored with how easy it is. There was no challenge left in the game for me.</P> <P> </P> <P>Bad news ChopStix, I hear Vanguard got pushed out to early 2007.</P>

[holypaladin28]

<P>keep the swashy alive long enough to cause that damage.  i taunting the targets to me because a pally can take alot more damage.  i ward the swasy if hes being hit i hela the swashy and i add in AEs and other dps also.  its because of teamwork that we can drop toons 8 lvls higher or full groups of blues </P> <P> </P> <P>i can solo most classes that con even </P> <P> </P>

[ChopStix]

<P>darn, vanguard got pushed back...</P> <P> </P> <P>and i know what you mean of the scout class's.. i have the lvl 30 ranger that got destoyer at like lvl 27 it was definetly no big deal to get it either, kind of easy actually.. and i did it 90% solo</P> <P> </P> <P>i think about the best thing soe can do now for pvp is just do away with it alltogether, they're not going to balance the class's, not going to fix armor and item issues, baiscly ,probably nerf this class more again before its over..</P> <P>  really [Removed for Content] me off when they took our shield bash away with the symbol, and kind of pushed it under the rug......what else can they do to nerf us?....  whats worse getting smacked with a shield or a symbol?go figure</P>

[ChopStix]

<P>so i guess now , we shouldnt believe a word you say? </P> <P> </P> <P>kalgore your ratio speaks for itself, no better than any other average paladin ,you just have more kills than others.. but your ratio doesnt stand out like Thunders does..</P> <P> </P> <P>basicly you break your k/d ratio down and it's pretty close to mine.. so your not stating anything with it and your not impressing me with it....</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[lavasoul]

<DIV>Chopstix, what class are you losing to that seem to make you so unhappy about the pally class? I think there is a strenght and weakness to every class well maybe not for healers.</DIV>

[enjoilab]

<DIV>its all about the mit and resist combo...look at balios on the venekor server i think my ratios are good, havent pvped as much as i should tho</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i am happy with being the tank/healer/dps with all the above being nerfed its all about being the utility in the pvp or pve group...sure the casting times are long but have you ever played a warlock??? with a little luck i can take ANY class in pvp 1v1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my new favorite spell in pvp is divine aura everyone needs to try that spell out in pvp its amazing</DIV>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>and something i have said in alot of posts chop was that whne i hit lvl 30 my pvp record was 100 kills and about 280 deaths.  it is now 1057 and 408.  i have also stated in posts pallys dont hit there pvp strides until around lvl 30-35 so since lvl 30 your looking at a 10-1 k/d.  but lets get back on subject if you cant PVP with a pally it means two things your gear sucks and you cant handle pushing more then one or two buttons i suggest the easy class of scout for you </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and to anyone that thinks that because i group with someone else i let them do all the work.  contact creeping on the vox server and ask him.  EQ2 is a game made up of thousands of other players.  and that is how the game stays balanced though  groups not going solo </DIV>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>kalgore just keep that swashbukler near you at all times, especially in the last tier...   and thats not going to matter alot either...   the problem with the upper tier is it so over-populated with</DIV> <DIV>exiles and freeporters, probably over 2:1 ratio compared with queynosians...  one group of queynosians dont stand a chance not to mention a raidx2 ,in TT, bonemire, or barren sky.... and the exiles and freeporters are all wearing fabled raid gear pretty much....  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> the problem started when everyone rolled new character's [usually scout class's] and didnt lvl up thier main, so we have a crap load of 20-50 which is worthless in the upper tiers....  and they're going to find it so difficult to lvl over 60 your almost going to want to quit and go back to another alt... which alot are doing or they're going to thier alts and locking xp which only makes matters worse, atleast on vox.. so what the problem leads to is, there are only a few lvl 68's and up probably not enough to fill a raidx4 consistently anyways, and that leads to not getting as good of gear, which makes it that much more difficult...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>be proud for now kalgore, but when that ratio starts dropping dont be suprised..even if your in full groups because you will get wiped trust me.. unless that swashies evac is up.. then there will be a group campin the porter and cloud platforms and pretty much groups on most islands camping cloud platforms and other teleporters..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you might get here, but your going to find it about twice as difficult or more to lvl past 60..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and too add,, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> hooloh's knightly helmet, cuirass of protection, pungent chitin spaulders, chitin plated gaunlets,xego boots, xego leggings, wrist guards of the fist king.. ardent schimitar of the krangoris, draconic deflector, orb of enmity, pristine fright imbued hex doll, pristine chaos imbued windcloth hex doll, hooluk feather charm, constables bracelet, pristine imbued ring of wisdom, dark chitin ring, adornment of prophecy [earring], and vitae immortalis....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ungrouped defensive</DIV> <DIV>health 6215</DIV> <DIV>power 3819</DIV> <DIV>haste 11%</DIV> <DIV>attack 1120- one handed sword and shield</DIV> <DIV>mitigation 3817 </DIV> <DIV>avoidance 47.5%</DIV> <DIV>str 237</DIV> <DIV>agi 140</DIV> <DIV>sta 288</DIV> <DIV>int 185</DIV> <DIV>wis 443</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>cold 3407</DIV> <DIV>disease 3802</DIV> <DIV>divine 4353</DIV> <DIV>heat 4236</DIV> <DIV>magic 5782</DIV> <DIV>mental 3032</DIV> <DIV>poison 3723</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>offensive</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hlth 6215</DIV> <DIV>power 3901</DIV> <DIV>haste 11%</DIV> <DIV>att1257</DIV> <DIV>mit 3411</DIV> <DIV>avoid 40.1%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>str 352</DIV> <DIV>agi 140</DIV> <DIV>sta 288</DIV> <DIV>int 300</DIV> <DIV>wis 316</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>cold 3044</DIV> <DIV>dis 3439</DIV> <DIV>divine 2366</DIV> <DIV>heat 3873</DIV> <DIV>magic 3795</DIV> <DIV>mental 2669</DIV> <DIV>poison 3360</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by ChopStix on <SPAN class=date_text>08-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:38 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:05 PM</span>

[ChopStix]

<P>lavasoul,</P> <P> </P> <P> tell me one strength a paladin has? and any one that even remotely stands out...</P> <P> </P> <P>our instant heal, harhar, pretty lame if thats it!!!!</P> <P>is it that we do divine damage? almost all items have divine resistes on them in the upper tier and alot of it.. so thats not it? </P> <P>is it we use more power than just about anyother class? that could be it ,but i dont think thats it..</P> <P>is it our other heals?   useless in my opinion, especially in pvp.. too long to cast,easily interupted... i have all master heals, and its not even close to offsetting the damage in tier7....</P> <P> </P> <P>is it our lack of damage output in tier7, now if thats what you were going to say i'll agree with that..</P> <P>Message Edited by ChopStix on <SPAN class=date_text>08-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:44 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:54 AM</span>

[Kaleyen]

PvP'ing our ward is our savior<div></div>

[ChopStix]

too long to cast and to easy to interrupt. plus the other class's dps soaks that up in one or two hits...  plus while your casting it ,your taking x amount of damage in the process, then the heals are useless, too long too cast, and not effective enough...<p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>08-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:00 PM</span>

[Kaleyen]

Well I'm sorry you're not happy and can't utilize our class in PvP, I do rather well in groups and one vs one and I don't have any gear that any T7 Pally can't get in groups from KoS instances.<div></div>

[Pugot]

<P>Wanted to throw in my 2 cents here as a 64 Pally on Vox.</P> <P>For a long time I struggled to enjoy PvP with my Paladin, but I actually have enjoyed it more post 60.  At 64 a 66 Assassin tried to gank me the other day while I was harvesting in Bonemire.  Don't let them get behind you, stun them, be careful about how you use your power.  I had him to 5% when he evaced, would have been an easy kill otherwise.  With the resists the way they are it is not too difficult to do well against mages.  Save your distance spells for when they root you.  Interrupt them, scare them.</P> <P>I have my hammer ground maxed out.  This I think is essencial to the Paladin in PvP.  In TT take them to a high cliff and let them chase you.  WHAMMO!</P> <P>I think those who said that wards are worthless are probably right.  I focus more on attacking and making it difficult for my enemy to hurt me rather than trying to heal myself.  I have found that with the Paladin, we have enough tankage, stuns, etc to last awhile in even con PvP.  It took me awhile to be patient in PvP.  Set up the scenario, put the enemy where you want them, if you think it's bad then bail...you have the hitpoints to run.  I have only been one shotted once and it was by a lvl 70 scout with uber gear.  I had a mage once play me really well and basically two shot me.  This has only happened once though and I give a lot of credit to the player not the class.</P> <P>I would love to see our class be able to nuke while on the run, etc, but I don't think being a Pally is as bad as you make it out to be in PvP.  We are a hybrid class and I think that makes us very unpredictable.  At 64 I'm having the most fun I've ever had in PvP even against 70's.</P>

[Chia_Pet]

The problem Kalgore, is you seem to think its ok that 35 lvls of play subpar is ok...WRONG.Also, you are twinked, with full masterwork/legendary gear. As A pally my life got ALOT easier once i twinked, which is a shame.you admit that your ability in the low levels was horrible, it wasnt because you "just got good" at lvl 35, its because some things start to even out a tad.Pallys are screwed up, and you can deny it all ya want, but the numbers dont lie.same with many other classes.the pally class has a LOW amount of PvP benefits, unlike the scout classes which are overloaded with em.they have knockbacks, can survive a fall, sniff out opponents, run faster during combat to catch and run away, evac, ranged attacks, etc etc.we got hit points and heals, the heals being nerfed by 20-25%. casting times that are long in the PvP fight, and a reliance on abilities that are easily interruptable.just because youre twinked, doesnt mean its all about skill.And grouping with a scout class doesnt hurt either.<div></div>

[enjoilab]

<DIV>chop your mit is really low you might have a better chance if ya get that up alot, also need to get those resists up alot too...from my understanding pallies are meant to outlast your enemy not to burst dps it, if you want to burst dps your enemy go roll and scout and stop whining some of us are happy with what our class is in pvp and dont need a whiner thread every other day...so if you want to survive in pvp get "twinked" (or upgraded like any reasonable person would say) and get a few master or adept 3 spells</DIV>

[ChopStix]

<P>i posted somewhere  all my adept3's and masters.. i have quite a few of them, all heals, holy circle, and devotion[ward] are masters, pretty much everything else is adept3.....   hard to get twinked when there hardly is enough  upper lvl's from Q raiding, but there are exiles and freeporters everywhere.. too many enemies in TT for a single group, almost the same in barren and bonemire..</P> <P> </P> <P>ive been in hof, blackscale,den of devourer, nest, poa. labs, and loa more than once the only thing i have seen that was remotely nice was the draconic deflector i got in labs and a set of shoulders i opted to let a friend have...  the den had the dark and light chitin rings, i won the dark...... what [Removed for Content] me off about that is a caster won the light chitin ring and dont even use it, put it up for sale, and i'm not giving 8-10 plat for that ring...</P> <P> </P> <P> i'm not wearing junk, but i know its not the best gear....... </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Kaleyen]

<blockquote><hr>ChopStix wrote:<div></div><p>what [Removed for Content] me off about that is a caster won the light chitin ring and dont even use it, put it up for sale, and i'm not giving 8-10 plat for that ring...</p> <hr></blockquote>I had the same thing happen to me the other day...I wanted to kill someone.  The only reason why I go to Den anymore is for that ring and a caster won it.  Thus another reason why pickup groups = doom<div></div>

[lavasoul]

<P>Chopstix,</P> <P>Your mit is kinda low even though you do have some nice pieces of gear but it won't do for a level 70 Paladin. I suggest you look into the claymore quest line and some of the reward that comes with it. Being a level 70 paladin with mit under 4k is consider undergear. If you can complete the claymore quest line up to POA part you should have 4500 mit which is like night and day compare to the mit you have currently.</P> <P> </P> <P>Well on my server a guildmate of mine and I are pallies with the most kills well lets say across all pvp server we are top rank pallies. His a Champion and I'm the 2nd Dreadnaught pally. I could care less of the kills ratio cuz it doesn't mean much. Pally got some crazy utility if use correctly. Like Divine Aura, Castigate, Ward, and heals cuz they are you best friend. Look into broker for potion that give you immunity to stun and stifle if thats the problem you are losing to scout classes. As for going against another tank its a close fight and can tip either way.</P><p>Message Edited by lavasoul on <span class=date_text>08-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:52 AM</span>

[Kaleyen]

<div><blockquote><hr>lavasoul wrote:<div></div> <div></div><p> Being a level 70 paladin with mit under 4k is consider undergear.</p><hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], I'm 69 and at 3600 in defensive stance + 2 hander.</div>

[Vathranen]

<P>The Qeynos Claymore heritage quest requires an extremely difficult x4 raid right? Unfortunately that's highly unlikely on Venekor Qeynos side as we have 70's dropping out pretty often and not many coming up to replace them. From what I've heard the largest Qeynos guild, Exile, literally went Exile which puts a big dent in our already low population.</P> <P>Of course I'm part of the problem instead of the solution as I've switched to Freeport side so I have people to group with. Just not much going on in Qeynos anymore.</P>

[Kaleyen]

<div></div>Exile didn't go Exile, DoM from FP went ExileAnd actually there's a lot going on Qeynos side of Venekor.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Kaleyen on <span class=date_text>08-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 PM</span>

[ChopStix]

well yea , why play a queynos character when you can play almost any freeport class and get an evac and more dps...

[ChopStix]

you might be the top ranked pallies, thats all good, but still the paladin kills dont come close to any other class's total of kills....

[enjoilab]

<DIV>i am sorry to say this but solo pally kills are rare at best the run away or evac away before you can kill them...so we can get get into a duo or group to go pvping for mass amounts of kills...come on its really not that simple *rolls eyes*</DIV>

[Vathranen]

I'm not trying to be mean here Liluk, but the only thing going on Qeynos side is the same old suicide-run-for-the-instance-door. If you spend any amount of time out in the open you will quickly be overwhelmed by Freeporters looking for a kill. From what I understand (and have seen from playing on Freeport side) is that they're pretty bummed about the lack of PvP going on.

[Kaleyen]

Trust me I know, tonight in Barren Sky was just insane...Group of DoMGroup of I like Pie4x Panda Raid1 Me trying to get to Hoo'LahUmm...guess how many times I died and I still didn't get to that bird.<div></div>

[ChopStix]

<P>pretty much the same on vox, might even be worse, actually i think it is from what i've heard anyways...  you can  try to complete quests with only one group.. but more than likely eventually your getting wiped at one point or another.. if not the first time, they squawk, and more of them come the second time or until they have enough to kill your group or atleast disrupt it enough ,most give up trying to regroup and just call back.... especially in the upper 2 tiers and its just going to get worse..   the exile population has pretty much doubled, and i see more people dropping the queynos side and going to freeport...</P> <P>about the population, why dont soe post server census' so the public knows? we should know as far as i'm concerned..</P> <P> the population is a real big problem and i dont think sony will do anything about ,  i think they need to implement one side or the other only ,because of the numerous dual boxers using a queynos character and freeport character, using the q toon to see where people are and such... seen this so many times its pathetic..  they also need to up the queynos sides dps on several characters, not just the paladin...any character that was on the queynos side that remotely had a chance they nerf it the 2nd week of the server going live..</P> <P>  so at that point the pvp servers will die a slow death just like they did before.... actually people have already sent me tells about it in game, seen people drop out of guilds and send me tells that they're dropping the game entirely.. go figure...   i'm getting close to doing the same,unless they start balancing pvp...  </P> <P> </P> <P>seems like everyother thing they nerf, armor or weapons, change aggro on mobs day to day, hit points day to day.. i've seen 2 paladin nerfs since pvp started and we're the last class that needs to be nerfed..  there is no consistency to the developers actions, they just throw stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] updates in on a whim...  how many nerfs have assasins had? shadow knights?coercers?brigands?defilers?   i actually think soe just wants to do away with the paladin class alltogether... the class hat has been bugged for how [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing long and nothing has been done about it, and so many people have sent bug reports, complained on forums and yet nothing.. </P> <P>that should tell you soe developers dont give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about the paladin class, maybe if they make it weak enough people wont play it, and we can just do away with it...</P> <P> </P> <P>so what my armor isnt raid quality, but if you go and look at the pvp boards and compare paladin numbers with every other class's numbers we're not even close in kills, except maybe the gaurdian class, but we cant tank as good as a gaurdian from what ive seen.... even you so called top paladins with the whopping 1500 kills.. that aint [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] compared to other classes... and my gear is probably better than most of yours... atleast from what i see on the pvp server's player search its better than most..</P> <P> </P> <P> soe has no consistency at all, </P>

[ChinaC]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Chia_Pet wrote:<BR>People can argue all they want that pallys are just fine, but the proof is in the numbers played.<BR> <HR> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Awesome thread.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Please do not make the mistake of equating most played classes to "best" classes, or most effective classes.   Easier, yes, but don't give that more value then it actually deserves.   I played a Brigand to 53, and have about 4-5 other less common played characters I actually enjoy more.    Perhaps I'm unusual, in that I really don't care about titles at all.  I care about how much fun I have playing.   I'll gladly accept dying to a no challenge situation, in exchange for the ones in-between that actually take a brain, and result in a great fight.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>I also think more and more players are feeling this way, and the cheap thrills wear thin quickly for many. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Scouts are a great class, just need to have their tracking and evac disabled for PvP.    Gobal early warning systems and exit buttons have no place in pvp; but I digress and don't wish to hyjack an excellent thread.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Regarding Side Balance, we need a FFA server.   That will solve all issues with side balance.   Relationships will evolve organically, and not due to what side one rolls on, or betrays to.    RvR is a poor ruleset for quality long lastihng PvP.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>ChinaCat</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by ChinaCat on <span class=date_text>08-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:27 PM</span>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV> <P> </P> <P>lava wrote</P> <P>our mit is kinda low even though you do have some nice pieces of gear but it won't do for a level 70 Paladin. I suggest you look into the claymore quest line and some of the reward that comes with it. Being a level 70 paladin with mit under 4k is consider undergear. If you can complete the claymore quest line up to POA part you should have 4500 mit which is like night and day compare to the mit you have currently.</P> <P> </P> <P>Well on my server a guildmate of mine and I are pallies with the most kills well lets say across all pvp server we are top rank pallies. His a Champion and I'm the 2nd Dreadnaught pally. I could care less of the kills ratio cuz it doesn't mean much. Pally got some crazy utility if use correctly. Like Divine Aura, Castigate, Ward, and heals cuz they are you best friend. Look into broker for potion that give you immunity to stun and stifle if thats the problem you are losing to scout classes. As for going against another tank its a close fight and can tip either way.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>im coming for that record lava.  just made champ only one on vox number one pally pvp and the only non lvl 70 pally in the top ten.  1300 more kills and im there hehe</P> <P>great job on being number one</P> <P> </P> <P>also to bounce of your broker.  just bought potions one iof them wards for 900 diesise and poison damage and the other wards for 900 cold and heat they last an hour and are on a 3 min recast timer.  it was fun when that sk hit me with the i win button and it did 10 in damage</P> <P> </P></DIV>

[lavasoul]

<DIV>Sounds like you're having fun Kalgore and greats bro. I do agree with a lot of you regarding the population on Qeynos begin low. On my server Freeport out number Qeynos and as for Exiled there is only 1 guild but they are well equipped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With claymore quest its 1 group all the way up to POA part. After that you require x2/x4 raid group to complete.</DIV>

[holypaladin28]

i would not be surprised if the FPERS outnumbered us 2to1 hell mabe even 3to1 on vox.  we had 2 guilds about 300 members exile the other day also.  but hey just means more targets for me to kill. 

[Hwoarang_Dang]

umm, I have played this game for like 2 days <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but I read whole thing you have been posting about PvP and pallys and want to tell that I came here from Lineage2 which was even more limited to characters personalization on skills and armor and we had the same problem that paladins were useless in PvP, but some paladins reaching lvl 75+ (max is 78 in l2 and its like 2 years of grind lol) start to use bows in PvP (they do not get any masteries etc. in l2 for it), the big defense that pallys had kept them alive, self heal as well and ranged attack was good enough to make decent damage to every other class, if the class that u were against war close combat class, then make few shots on target and when he comes close just switch to sword/shield and stun, then use whatever skills/abilities u have.Since I have played this game only for 2 days, I dont really know if pallys here can use a bow, if can, then try it, coze it will take some dagger users out before they have reached u <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Chia_Pet]

Kalgore, its convienient for you to blame the player and not the class.but by your own admission you sucked till lvl 35 or. Why is that?im curious, because my stats at lvl 37 are currently 330/260 or there abouts. which tell me Im a better player then you, at least up to the half way point thus far.So did you like, just become uber and know how to play when you hit 35?heck my stats dont even reflect the time i just charged in knowing i would get wiped just for fun. which easily counts for 100 deaths. And freeps that have seen the name Artur knows that.but lets face it, we DONT have jack for PvP, now maybe the later lvls it gets better, i wouldnt know as im currently 37, though things do seem to go a little better with my newer LoH spells and such ( Doom judgement is a killer).however this still doesnt deal with the severe imbalance our class has for the first half of our lvl range.<div></div>

[Vathranen]

<P>Chia_pet it gets worse as you get higher. Your defense doesn't get any better, your damage gets lower, and all other class' damage output increases. Math doesn't lie. Just look at the numbers. There are a handful of 70 Paladin across the PvP servers and of those, only a few still play (I think at least half have quit). You've got two or three here on the forums that really enjoy their class but it seems to me these guys would be happy playing any class; they just enjoy playing.</P> <P>Some of us are more competitve however and can't help but look around and compare with other classes. That's when you start to see the glaring flaws in the Paladin class for PvP. It's a great PvE class but it lends nothing to the PvP game.</P> <P>As for bows, no Cruasaders cannot use bows. We get three ranged nukes by end game (two of them you don't get until mid-40's and 50). Besides that, you don't see dagger users until they're already attacking you. That's the beauty of playing a tank class.</P>

[Kaleyen]

70th Pally on PvP...going to address a few things you mentioned above Vath.Do I enjoy playing my class- YesWould I enjoy playing any class that I leveled up to 70- YesIs the reason why I haven't rerolled is because I did reach 70- YesIf given the chance would I pick a different fighter class- Yes<div></div>

[Vathranen]

<P>Thank you Liluk, that's the point I've been trying to make. The Paladin can fill a role in a PvP group and he has a few tricks and neat abilities like lay on hands but any other class would better fit that role - a real priest class would have better heals and much better utility and all other fighter classes taunt and tank better.</P>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>heck my stats dont even reflect the time i just charged in knowing i would get wiped just for fun. which easily counts for 100 deaths. And freeps that have seen the name Artur knows that.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>rofl think what ever you want chia because until someone comes close to nearing my kills i know whos the best on vox.  The  players that are close are no longer playing those toons.  therer are alot of classes that want a pally in the group because of what they can do.  as far as my toon being twinked.  kalgore is my highest lvl toon the others are lvl 20 and are played maybe once a week.  thats not twinked thats earning my armor </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>vath about what you posted. yah healers can heal better then me.  they can also be one shotted by IC or an assisante. pallys can not.  yah other fighters have taunt but the fighters dont get wards and heal to heal the damage they recieve.  in order for someone to kill me they will have to </DIV> <DIV>1 break though a 700 ward</DIV> <DIV>2 make me use virtuos touch 3k heal</DIV> <DIV>3 make me use the shard heal 1400</DIV> <DIV>4 take away my 4200 life</DIV> <DIV>so a class would have to do 9200 in damage.  with my MIT and resists up thats a lot of time to get me down.  then if i feel like it i have repeat heals to use.</DIV> <DIV>how many classes at lvl 53 can say that 9200 in damage has to be done to kill them.  healers maybe if they stay out of combat.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by holypaladin2819 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:36 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by holypaladin2819 on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:39 PM</span>

[enjoilab]

<P>i am happy a lvl 70 pally on a pvp server and play almost everyday with Balios, i have enjoyed my class the whole way lvling up, yes i have killed scouts before solo, if i was given a chance would i roll another fighter...hell no this toon is the most fun i have had in this game.</P> <P>its all about resists and mit!!! Rhone that might help you!!! stop whining when you have under 4k mit...and it does help if you upgrade all your spells and equipment once every once in a while</P>

[Vathranen]

<DIV>Balios my equipment isn't getting any better. I inspect every other plate tank I see just to be sure and nobody's wearing anything better than what I have on Rhone, and I've pretty much maxed it out. There is better armor to be had in tier 7 raid zones I'm sure but I'll never know as I've retired from the Paladin class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furthermore I've never complained about Paladin survivability, that's the one thing we do well, keep ourselves alive. But like ChopStix says, why bother? It's just postponing the inevitable. You guys claiming you can kill scouts solo are very lucky. Any scout that knows how to play can kill any other class besides brawlers and smart druids past level 50. I guess I've just never been lucky enough to find the really sucky scouts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the point I'm trying to make that some of you guys are missing is that the Paladin class in a vacuum isn't that bad, but compared to any other fighter its flaws start to show up. Also keep in mind that I'm only referring to PvP. The PvE Paladin is the premiere tank - I've always thought that. The problem for me is that I look at the game as a whole and compare what every class gets against all other classes. When you compare the Paladin with the other fighters in a PvP environment you start to see it's a very lacking class. Your group mates would appreciate you much more if you were a zerker in a PvP setting. All the resists and mitigation but double the DPS and taunting. I don't factor heals or wards in as a Paladin because I was rarely able to cast them through all the stuns, and the amount you get out of them is so low compared to the damage output of other classes. IE - heals and wards are counted in hundreds while damage output is counted in thousands. That's my point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally, I'm not telling you guys that you're wrong to enjoy playing a Paladin. Someone will always enjoy every class for one reason or another. It's not for me, and I think I have valid complaints about the class.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:28 AM</span>

[Kaleyen]

Rhone, you're the most self hating Pally out there.  But you make some valid points.<div></div>

[ChopStix]

<P>i completely agree with you Vathranen....</P> <P> </P> <P> i rolled a beserker lvl 15 at the moment and i can already tell the difference. The difference is night and day camparing the paladin and beserker.  the beserker doesnt get the heals and doesnt really need them, but the mitigation buff is very nice, and the dps is a major, let me restate that, a major upgrade with the beserker, also being able to attack while on the go is awesome, aggro control is alot easier with a beserker also...</P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:19 AM</span>

[Chia_Pet]

conveinient again that you skipped over everything i wrote kalgore.so explain to me how you "just got good" after lvl 35. im curious, because by your own admission, you SUCKED pre 35...so answer the question already.<div></div>

[ChopStix]

he did answer, he doesnt leave queynos harbor without a swashbuckler :]..  if he did he would sux again..

[treedo]

"Grass is always greener" syndrome strikes again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=494149122" target=_blank>Dethnel</a> Is my Paly tank and much of my xp is from his <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer_pvp.vm?characterId=494149122" target=_blank>pvp</a>ing.Sure i'm equipped pretty well but alot of it is pvp gear or from stuff that i harvested. If you take your time and don't rush through the content just to get to the next tier you can get pretty well equipped yourself. That being said this class isn't for everyone and Qeynos in itself isn't for everyone but other than being a Brig/Swash/[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/Ranger, every class has whines about there ability to do something. And good luck on your next toons!<div></div>

[Vathranen]

<P>You're right Treedog. I tried a Swashbuckler. It was fun for a while because I won every fight with little to no risk to myself. Somehow that got boring so I quit playing him. I started a monk and that was fun. It was a bit more challenging because I had to find my targets without radar but otherwise it was even easier to win fights. However, Qeynos stopped supplying groups so I switched to Freeport and am playing a bruiser now. Same thing but more of it.</P> <P>You call grass is greener syndrome, I call glaring class imbalance.</P>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>because everquest2 was my first online game i everplayed.  i dindt even know what PVP was i just chose the server because it was the first one on the list.  so not only did i have to learn everquest2 and learn to play my class i had to learn the hard way that other players could attack me.  hell i thought they where just mobs for awhile.  again the swashy wants me around.  why heals wards taunts great resists and MIT.  we can drop players 8-10 lvls higher because we both bring something to the table i keep that toon of fthe swashy amd the swashy kills players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ2 PVP is balanced though groups plain and simple if you think that because i gorup with a swashy i cant play fine what ever.  but i have learned that a balanced group that can bring alot of different things to the table owns PVP </DIV><p>Message Edited by holypaladin2819 on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:11 AM</span>

[Vathranen]

Now we've come full circle. Kalgore has only ever played a Paladin, and this is his first MMORPG. I'm not trying to be mean and I'm certainly not making fun of you Kalgore, you just don't know any better. EQ2 PvP is severely broken, especially in a group setting, and if you can win against players 8-10 levels higher than you then you must be fighting some <EM>really</EM> crappy players. Every class in Freeport is better than their Qeynos counterpart (except for Assassin/Ranger), and that's only the tip of the imbalance issues.

[enjoilab]

<DIV>you didnt even get to 70 rhone and your mit isnt that good thats the main problem with your pvping xp, the only class i really have a hard time solo are bruisers (all their knockbacks and stuns) and brigands (debuffs and all) but it is possible to kill them...and mages are just cake now i took the agi joust line its a quick burst of dps to help scare and kill scouts and healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i try not to quit on my fellow Qs for the life on the greener side of the fence maybe thats just me, one of the only 70 paladins left on the vene server apart from atuc and liluk that i know of, sure i do play a low lvl pvp dps alt (hardly call it a twink cuz i am so cheap) but i enjoy my pally so very much more.</DIV>

[Vathranen]

<P>I did only get to 69. I got all my level 70 adept III's in the bank and I was so disappointed in the lack of gain that I just couldn't muster the ambition to get 70. IE Brimstone is only around 200 points more damage than Decree which was 20 levels prior. Imagine a monk only getting a 200 point increase from 50 to 70, they'd be livid. I don't remember what my mitigation was but it was close to 50%. Like I said before, I didn't see any upgrades out there; I wore the best I could find. I also changed AA lines and went for a couple AGI attacks. I wasn't very impressed. Also took the damage immunity power that was suggested and was not impressed by that. It didn't last long enough.</P> <P>I've said this a few times I'm sure - survivability was never an issue. I was always the last to die. That's what always made it worse; my group laying dead around me wondering why I was unable to save them or at least die first. "The berserker at least had the balls to hold aggro and die first." I know I could kill a mage or a healer that's out solo. Problem is I've never seen one. Seems I only find bruisers and brigands. I guess that's just my luck <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>As for loyalty to my friends - I didn't betray to become a Shadowknight even as much as I wanted to out of loyalty to Qeynos. But it came down to quit or play Freeport so I could get groups on my alts. I chose both, been playing Freeport the past month and my account runs out Sept. 2nd.</P> <P>So I guess you guys only have one more week of hearing me complain about a class I don't even play anymore.</P><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:51 PM</span>

[enjoilab]

only one more week bummer

[holypaladin28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vathranen wrote:<BR> Now we've come full circle. Kalgore has only ever played a Paladin, and this is his first MMORPG. I'm not trying to be mean and I'm certainly not making fun of you Kalgore, you just don't know any better. EQ2 PvP is severely broken, especially in a group setting, and if you can win against players 8-10 levels higher than you then you must be fighting some <EM>really</EM> crappy players. Every class in Freeport is better than their Qeynos counterpart (except for Assassin/Ranger), and that's only the tip of the imbalance issues.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>or maybe i can play my class very well.  likle i said wards heals stuns intreupts okay dps great resists great MIt good avoid.  we get something from everyclass which makes us very hard to counter.  not to mentionm everyone ignores divine resists making thos crits land all the more im fighting the best freeport has to offer within my lvl range

[Vathranen]

<DIV>Bear in mind here that I have a KvD of 7 and Champion title. It's not that I necessarily suck at PvP as a Paladin. I suppose I've made it sound like I fail miserably every time I try. I do well enough and many times my guild has waited until I log on to go out PvPing but I always felt like I was letting them down because I wasn't a berserker or a guardian whose taunts worked. I guess I  just don't enjoy playing a Paladin in PvP. I think the class should have something that other classes don't offer more of. But I guess that's just the hybrid nature of the crusader class which I'm always drawn to in any MMORPG. I feel like I can do so much more when I'm playing a monk/bruiser or a swashbuckler. It doesn't feel balanced to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I'm never referring to solo PvP. Everybody with two brain cells to rub together knows that a Paladin can't kill you if you move. That's why I was saying you guys must be finding the dumbest freeps. I never leave the city alone, and I don't compare classes in a vacuum. I compare what they accomplish when working grouped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And do you wonder why nobody bothers with Divine resist? It's because only three classes deal divine damage and those are three of the lowest DPS classes in the game - Paladin, Templar, and Inquisitor. Increasing my nuke from 300 to 350 just doesn't feel like a large return on investment. Not only that but I'm also comparing to what the warriors & brawlers have - an interrupt tied to their taunt instead of a debuff. I'd much rather interrupt that Ice Comet while I'm charging in than debuff their divine resistance for 50 extra damage <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Vathranen on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 PM</span>

[CrimsonValerian]

<P>I have a 32 pally on vox with a kill vs. death of 453 to 244, for a tank thats not too shabby eh?  And yes i solo, rarely do i group except with my monk guildie level 27 to kamikaze ts station, and i still get the kills, i have a few adept 3's a few masters but mostly adept 1's with some feysteel gear and other stuff that i could afford.  One on one i can take almost any class 3 levels higher than me, necro's, scouts pffft hahaha!! The only problem child is bruisers, but slam on offensive stance and it's an even match.</P> <P>Now before you say anything else.  I also have a 65 pally on unrest so yeah i know what's up in t7.  Yes our dps is crap, our heals are pretty decent if adept 3'd or mastered, wards are not gimped in pvp, preparation is key, make good friends with an alchemist, or grind one out yourself, get as many cure trauma/arcane/poison/elemental potions that you can, get manastone, get potions that regen health and power, totems of the owl/butterfly.  Yes you take more preparation than most other classes but played well you're absolutely hard to take down.</P> <P>Oh and fyi, don't fight a defiler, took me and a guildie about 40 minutes to get it finished and no i'm not exaggerating and no i didn't win, but he was oop and at 60% health, if i had one more potion ...well.......who knows.</P>

[Jeffmaster]

<P>Brigs rock in PVP...besides that I love my Paly</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[enjoilab]

brigs debuffs should be nerfed in pvp...

[Jeffmaster]

<P>yeah I know....they we are warrior killers</P> <P>Paly's are probably the most complex class to master and that's why there are not so many good ones out there</P>

[enjoilab]

pally dps in pvp is really really bad

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>yes pally dps is bad but a pally is a group based player groups are where we shine.  thats why when i go pvping i have scouts and healers begging me to group with them because i can take a hit.  casters do nothing to me (got my resistrs at 50-80 percent.  i have wards to cast so if another gorup memebr starts taking damage i fire on off and then the healer can catchup.  i have a nice group heal.  i have that great instant heal and i have a full lif incombat rez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so yes pally dps iis bad so find someone with good dps and then you have a very deadly combo </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and yes pally is most likely playing in hard mode on a pvp server.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by holypaladin2819 on <span class=date_text>09-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:00 PM</span>