Holding Aggro with Multiple casters!

[Taipans]

<DIV>I was grouped up in HOF trying to tank and hold aggro with a 70 Warlock & 70 Wizzy blasting everything to pieces. I would throw amends on one only to lose aggro from the other. All my hate spells are master II (group one) and Adept III's. Obvioulsy playing to level 70 I should know by now that if the casters dont chill out there isnt much you can do. But for some reason I still feel crappy and think it makes me look horrible to the others in the group. Do you guys run into this a lot and feel like you suck because of it. :smileysad:</DIV><p>Message Edited by Taipans on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:31 AM</span>

[Rrys]

<P>I've run in to it sometimes and I never feel bad about one of the DPS dying, IF they can't/won't throttle and/or won't stay on my target.  If those two kill things before they can damage the group, fine!  But, if they endanger the group, so be it!</P> <P>Paks/Qeynosian Human/42 Paladin</P>

[StormQueen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taipans wrote:<BR> <DIV>I was grouped up in HOF trying to tank and hold aggro with a 70 Warlock & 70 Wizzy blasting everything to pieces. I would throw amends on one only to lose aggro from the other. All my hate spells are master II (group one) and Adept III's. Obvioulsy playing to level 70 I should know by now that if the casters dont chill out there isnt much you can do. But for some reason I still feel crappy and think it makes me look horrible to the others in the group. Do you guys run into this a lot and feel like you suck because of it. :smileysad:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Taipans on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:31 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have once in a while run into this; I don't like being MT for pickup groups for that reason. </P> <P>Here is what I do: I pick a caster for Amends, I tell the group that Amends is on Suchandsuch the Wizard, for example.  If I don't know the group well, I also tell them that the other casters need to hold back a bit until I have taunted at least twice, and not to go all out until the mob(s) are well down in the orange.  Pallies take a bit more time to establish aggro than warrior classes, so if you have trigger-happy casters in your group, make it clear that macho nuking right at the start is gonna get them killed. Then let it happen.</P> <P>They don't like the lesson very well, but a few of them (NOT the vast majority) need a wakeup call. </P> <P>Please, casters, let your tank establish aggro so the mob doesn't come and get you, or the healer frantically trying to keep you vertical.</P> <P>PS Amends is NOT foolproof. Ice Nova, Fusion, etc WILL draw aggro to the caster right through it if the nukes are used too soon.</P>

[Taipans]

<DIV>Noticed a ton of casters have huge ego's too. They seem to think they can blow through an entire zone without a tank. I try to represent our class the best I can and it just pisses me off that they make me look bad to people who dont understand whats going on. I have also noticed Warlocks being the worst in this case, and they just cant stay away from spamming their AE's!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Taipans on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:27 AM</span>

[duuf]

Have run into the same problems both as a wiz and a pally tank.  The problem is that the wiz single target specialty on the main target will overwhelm the agro transfer from the warlocks multi target specialty and vice versa the warlock will overwhelm the secondary targets agro when you amend the wiz.  If you amends the wiz tell the warlock to concentrate on his few single target spells or if you amends the warlock tell the wiz to concentrate on his few multi target spells and spread his single target damage out among all of the mobs.  Generally I think its best to amends the wiz because it takes too much guessing to spread damage out among the mobs and I feel burning them down one at a time is usually the superior strategy.Duufuss lvl70 pallyDuffus lvl 70 wiz Everfrost<div></div>

[Wulfborne]

Take Amends off both of them once, let them ping-pong and both die, you finish off the mob and take the loot.Ok, seriously, if neither will throttle back at all, take Amends off for a fight or 2 to see who really is packing the heat that day. Feel free to help any healer with wards and crap, but you'd need to see who was the biggest aggro generator, and that's the only way to do it if they are being children and refusing to do anything but go all out. Once you see who has consistant aggro (may change from zone to zone) for your area you're fighting in, Amends that person, and let any over-aggro'ers after that point die to learn the leson. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<div></div>

[TrekkerSnake]

One of your problem was the fact you were switching your amends around. It might have given each of the mages the impression they had your amends and could "blast away". Try keeping you amends on just one of the mages and when the other gets agro, he'll learn the hard way.

[Rarlin]

<P>Don't forget the power of Sigil.  The down side to this spell is that it has a decent resuse timer.  If I have a few aggro happy DPS classes in my group, once they steal aggro I pull another mob.  If they die, I generally have aggro next.  My wife is the healer so I tell her to just stay on me and let them flop.</P> <P>I try not to get worked up over it because there are some DPS classes that just have NO clue about aggro management being a team effort (ESPECIALLY when the Paladin is the MT).  </P> <P>The other problem you're probably facing with a Wizzy/Warlock is that each fight is different.  If you have 5 ^ mobs in one group or 1 ^^^ mob in another, that will change who you may need to have Amends on.  </P> <P>Lastly, remember not to get too upset over it.  If you're a good tank and you know it, just laugh as they die... It keep me smiling to watch them scream at me honestly.  But they generally learn or leave the group.</P>

[Knesh]

<DIV>Generally with a warlock and a wizzy in the group I will put amends on the warlock because there deal more dmg with grouped mobs IE AE, while the wizard does have some ae are more geared for a single npc at a time. Generally when I do this it works out well... The problem comes in when you have a wizard, warlock and a monk in the group. I will then through amends on the monk and advised the wizards to take it easy. If I notice the casters are picking up to much agro I swap out my amends... I've never really had a problem with it just gotta pay attention to who the hate is going to..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also with taunts being adept 3 or master or master ii I suggest making our bash (aka; dash) line adept 3 or better for the additional 1400+ hate gain... Which helps out a ton.</DIV>

[Taipans]

<P>Ya I finally this week I have every spell Master or adept III including sigil and the bash line. Although im not real fimilar with how Sigil works. Does it remove some of everyones hate instantly and dump it on you? Or does it work over time? I'm not sure really during a fight to cast it. I do notice if I lose aggro to a heavy DPS that sigil will not bring it back. So I'm always not sure to cast it as it cycles or wait until a certain point during a fight?</P> <P> </P> <P>And no I didnt keep switching it up and not letting them know... that obvioulsy would cause a problem. I think the main problem was they were trying to out do each other and had to throw out as much damage as possible. I'm just ranting on here to express my frustration of grouping with ego-casters. </P>

[holypaladin28]

<DIV>i tell everyone to target me and ngive me 10 seconds before they blast them.  if a caster or a dps decides to attack someone other then what i have targeted then hes SOL i might try and pull the mob off but my main focus is on the people that do what i say and yes many a caster has died because they think they can go after an even con HER ^^^ by themselves.  i say let them die if they dont listen.  and i could care less what pickup groups think i know im doing a good job becaus ei group with alot of the same people and its a given im tanking</DIV>

[khufure]

Sigil transfer hate from all group members to you.  If I remember its around 20 something percent for 20 seconds./g Sigil of heroism about to be cast! Transfers hate from you to me for 20 seconds.; useability Sigil of Heroism<div></div>

[robusticus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taipans wrote:<BR> <DIV>I was grouped up in HOF trying to tank and hold aggro with a 70 Warlock & 70 Wizzy blasting everything to pieces. I would throw amends on one only to lose aggro from the other. All my hate spells are master II (group one) and Adept III's. Obvioulsy playing to level 70 I should know by now that if the casters dont chill out there isnt much you can do. But for some reason I still feel crappy and think it makes me look horrible to the others in the group. Do you guys run into this a lot and feel like you suck because of it. :smileysad:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Taipans on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:31 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>One of the reasons I like having 2 tanks in a single group.  Between moderate and amends there are no aggro issues.

[Aamad]

I tanked lyceum recently, for aggro I had a dirge's hate buff and an amended warlock in my mt group hehe. Raid dps was awesome (20k on a lot of the encounters) and I rarely lost aggro, except to one wizard who somehow overcame all that plus the troub deaggro he had in group lol. Probably was a 20k fusion crit or something, and there's no coming back from that. Its those big nukes that get wizzies in trouble. But yeah the warlock gave me sufficient ae hate. As for monks or even another tank,  I rarely put my amends on them when I have a very solid dps target to siphon hate from. All in all was a lot of fun, the dps just going all out. Went quick lol<div></div>

[Acsodeputy]

I've only done a few groups made up of both a warlock and a wiz but genreally, if I'm having trouble holding aggro on a consistent basis, I will use the tab button to tab through the encounter and use my single target taunts as they pop.  Using this method in conjunction with our group encounter taunt usually grants me good aggro throughout the encounter.  Of course using SoH too! <div></div>

[Xaci]

I usually have to do what others have stated above. I use the encounter taunt, then single target taunt, when the taunt comes up again tab, and taunt the next one. So on and so forth. Works preety well for the most part. I also make sure i blow off my AE's to get some more aggro on the other targets aswell, not sure how this all works higher in the end game though, but for now it seems to work.<p>Message Edited by Xacius on <span class=date_text>07-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:16 AM</span>

[Novalos]

I usually save my encounter taunt incase any adds happen upon us, or I lose agro.  That way, if we get an add and I just taunted, I don't have to wait another 8s or use Rescue to get the add on me.  I'm only level 49 right now, so a lot of the classes I group with haven't peaked their dps.  Between Master I taunt and Amends, I've yet to lose agro.Something that was mentioned in another post, is to cast Amends line on another tank, and have them taunt as well.  I can see this getting a little out of hand if you amends a monk with their dps and all, but how does this compare over casting Amends on a wizard / warlock?  Like I said I have had little problems losing agro, so I haven't had any reason to experiment with this.<div></div>

[Wulfborne]

<div><blockquote><hr>DigitalRaven wrote:Something that was mentioned in another post, is to cast Amends line on another tank, and have them taunt as well.  I can see this getting a little out of hand if you amends a monk with their dps and all, but how does this compare over casting Amends on a wizard / warlock?  Like I said I have had little problems losing agro, so I haven't had any reason to experiment with this.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I love throwing Amends on a monk. Aggro lock on me, period. Even wizzys with Fusion have to go nuke crazy to pull it off me. The only reason I *do* toss Amends on a caster over a monk if it's a toss-up is cuz the monk can handle the mob's attention a bit... robe-wearers go splat.~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</div>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<DIV>what i usually do is put amends on the warlock, they have some uber nukes...usually if i can hit everything with an aoe and fire of sigil i'll keep agro pretty well, if there are people that don't throttle their dps i'll spam my aoe taunt, if they still pull aggro then they aren't working with the group on managing things and deserve to die...really it's up to the group to work together as well as the tank to do their job, don't feel bad if a squishie pulls yer agro if u know you're doing your job and doing it well, just tell em they need to be mindful of what's going on when they have other dps classes to compete with, if they don't listen they're not worth yer time saving...</DIV>

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>My suggestion</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1st   put amends on teh Warlock.  You can keep aggro easier on the mob you are targeted than on the ones you are not.   Wizzies normally pull the one you are on (if they are assisting at least) where as warlocks pull the rest of em.  Amend the warlock</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2nd  ward yourself.  that helps with aggro</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3rd  rearrange AAs to 0-4,4,8-4,4,8-0,4,4,8,1    this will increase DPS about 50%, and will help out your aggro abilities massively.   or you can dump 8 A points into the hate gain AA skill in the STR line,  that wil lhelp some</DIV>

[Jakub]

<P>Sheesh, this isnt that hard to do. Always put amends on the warlock- its specialty is multiple targets and can cause problems. Make sure you get your single-group-shieldbash down, this is effective and aggro is easily kept when using this. Also, dont try tanking with apprentice 4's either, you need masters or adept 3's.</P> <P> </P> <P>Pallies are good tanks guys, you just need to learn the play them properly. Learn their strengths and embrace their weaknesses. THe only thing a pally has some real trouble with is MTing a x4 raid. (Those of you that have been to labs know what i mean)</P>

[JarredDarque]

<DIV>I actually ran HoF tonight with this set up   Me as MT, monk, warden, coercer, warlock, wizzard.  all the people are high end raiders, and thus LOTS of DPS  (the group had close to 4k DPS on normal fights, 3500 on names, and about 6k on the AOE drakotas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I amended the warlock, the wizard got aggro about 4 times, and 3 of them where when he was on the wrong mob after I switched to get the ^^ before taking down the ^s.  the warlock never got aggro.  The monk I had to fight with all the time, but I didnt bother taunting the mobs off him most of the time,  he can hold his own.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>on the single target named fights I switched amends to the wizzy, and one time I fogot to swap amends back, and the lock got aggro the very next fight.  So yeah, keep the lock amended, and throw out all your taunts at the begining of every fight, and if you feel you need to, taunt some during the fights,  and use AOEs to also help keep aggro.  Works great, and g'luck</DIV>

[Hakan]

<DIV>As much as we want to hold aggro, a lot of DPS people feel bigger about themselves if they get whacked a few times.  Its like saying "Look at how much damage I do since I steal aggro from the MT".  This is what happens when no one respects death=)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have my group taunt Master 2, my single target on Adept 3.  I use each when its up, along with the bash and appropriate AoEs.  I keep Amends on a DPS generator.  As far as I'm concerned, if they still draw aggro its on them.  I'll use the super-taunt or LoH if the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hits the fan, but that ought to be enough.  You can only cover for other players so much.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hakanek</DIV> <DIV>Unrest</DIV>

[Hakan]

Also, sometimes Darwin Award winning clothies will try to work up their melee skills... by attacking from the same side as you.  When they inevitably get riposted, it looks like they got aggro... but really, they just got [Removed for Content] slapped.

[Feydakeen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hakanek wrote:<BR> <DIV>As much as we want to hold aggro, a lot of DPS people feel bigger about themselves if they get whacked a few times.  Its like saying "Look at how much damage I do since I steal aggro from the MT".  This is what happens when no one respects death=)</DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's so true. If there was a bigger punishment on a death, you'd see the DPS holding back much more often. Now some of them are just holding a contest to see how soon they can steal agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To answer the OP, it really depends on situation , and the DPSers you're playing with. </DIV> <DIV>Use everything you have in your arsenal to get agro back, Amends, Sigil, taunts, wards.</DIV> <DIV>But try to do some decent DPS too, as they add alot of agro. So use AOE attacks, Consecration, Castigate...</DIV> <DIV>Using the intelligence AP line helps a lot with this, and if you chose the Heal crits, you can sometimes even get agro back by healing the DPSers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> :p</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[TheBu]

<DIV>I play a pally and a wiz...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So just speak up first and let them know. </DIV> <DIV>Tag Warlock or Wizzy u have amends</DIV> <DIV>aoe?  no aoe?</DIV> <DIV>ps all please give me 5 secs...  hate over time..  .hello</DIV> <DIV>..  check the parses  u never know who has the masters,,,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it also easier for a wiz. . all they need to do is get masters...</DIV> <DIV>as a  tank  we need to have same lvl of hate spells..  and well ur lvl 49 spell amends?  should be master... period.</DIV> <DIV>and well: weapons, armor. . and stats and.. etc   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and dont hold back on the aoe.. and use the ho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>rember we transfer ther hate to us.. . ther is not better spell!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Plaidler]

i have recently tanked AoA x2 with all our highest dps's in the guild, necro's, warlock, bruiser,monk, and everything else that could dps. I always put my amends on the monk, he transfers his agro funnel to me and i have an illusionist put haste on the monk. We worked out the monk was feeding me about 400agro per sec and for the most part i hel agro against everything till the end. The thing is, with the warlock nuking so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard, if i pulled 3 epic x2, (which have epicx4 hp in there i think) by the time the first mob was down the other 2 were nearly dead as well, so if you can find a solution then i say go for it. The problem with putting amends on warlocks is they think its their ticket to unleash, then they get agro and die and you are stuck with 2 or 3 mobs left and no amends on anyone. My amends is master and  with the setup i just described i must admit the warlock still got agro off me occasionally but i was able to use sigil to get it back fairly easy. We also used this set up to tank lockjaw who is notorius for agro reset and yet i held agro from start to finish and did not lose it once. And your right, when i lose agro to a player that doesnt take responsability for his agro control it still makes you feel like you let the group down. <div></div>