Time for a change...

[Pathin Merrithay]

<DIV>I really, really, really want the final ability of the Wisdom AA line to provide Fearless to the entire group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, our labs Helm needs to be fixed so it's castable while stunned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is all. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nevar]

<DIV>Shouldnt go down the wisdom line in the first place. I think that whole line is about dumb and worthless. I like Int for the spell crits, Sta is a must even if you dont raid and the rest, TO ME, are dumb. To yall they might not be but I find the other lines dumb. I dont think they should make it grp they should raise the 1% thing to like 5. Then that ability would own.</DIV>

[Geekyone]

<P>I disagree with Nevarer.  As Paladins we are not the MT of Raids (Not saying we can't be, it's just so much smarter to let a Guard do it) so unless you soley solo the Wisdom line is one of the best we get.  In group situations with the Wisdom line we give ALOT of pluses to the entire group.</P> <P>So unless you solo, or think your a DPS the wisdom line is one of our best.</P> <P>But, to each his own.</P>

[MeridianR]

Personally it depends on what your group setup normally is....the only thing that I would consider decent in the Wisdom line, is the + skills AA.  The health regen is alright I guess, but nothing that I would waste 9+ AA's to get down to.I am Str / Sta @ the moment, but going to be changing to Int the next possible time I can.  The strength line just isn't that great, and 8 points into haste for a huge 18% isn't worth it to me at all.  Passive hate gain, while alright is easily increased with a Coercer or a Dirge....Stamina is and always will be our best line, not only for the HP, but melee crits, and Hammer Ground which is serviceable.  I wouldn't waste anything on Agility in PvE, but I guess some people are using the second line in it.So to sum it up:Strength - meh, nothing great here - even if you tankAgility  - more of a PvP template, but might be something to try out for JoustStamina - easily the best line here - HP, melee crits, divine aura if you go all the way down (which I don't, but some people enjoy it)Wisdom - so / so - the + group buff isn't that bad but everything else is just filler.  Fearless to me isn't worth at least 25 AA points.Int - Seems to be the second most used AA line other then Stamina.  Most people tinker with 448x or something in the line for the spell critsMy current AA:4484 Strength8488 Stamina1 intMy new AA:8488 Stamina8481 Intor8488 Stamina4485 Int...but I haven't made up my mind yet.<div></div>

[Kaleyen]

Stamina is a MUST have, second line I'm torn between INT and STR.  INT for the spell and heal crits and STR for the hate gain, I'll probably go down INT though because the increased hate gain is not desireable in certain situations, specially raids.<div></div>

[Knesh]

<DIV>I went down the wis line and the str line - have to say I think those are the two best lines in the crusaders aa lineup. stamina end results dont stack up. And FYI it doesn't add fearless to the entire group it just makes the caster (aka you) immune to fear.</DIV>

[Aamad]

<DIV>The OP knows it doesnt provide it for the entire group ...... read what they typed rofl. Sta and Int is what I went down myself. I'd much rather crit on all my spells, and heals, and so on than apply some dinky skill buff and a regen. If the final ability gave a 5% bonus yeah that'd be nifty. But as is wisdom is something i'd never waste points on.</DIV>

[Nevar]

Yea I think crits are far better then being immune to fear. If more mobs feared maybe it would be good, but as it stands its a waste of points.

[equinoxio]

<P>Well atm I think Fearless is useless, imo there arent enough encounters out there that need to be fearless, from the top of my head I can remember Uncaged and Slavering Alzid in Labs, Essence of Fear in Lyceum and some caster mobs in vaults cast fear, It's not that great.</P> <P>I would like to see if DA is worth something for an OT?, since I would be MT like in 25% or less of my guild raids, just when our MT isnt on</P> <P>My lines are Str. 4/4/8, Sta. 4/4/8/4 and wis 4/4/5, I have 22% crit with my MoA, 40% haste without the axe proc, I like this build, I crit most of the time on my CAs, since they count on melee crit from what I noticed, but thinking if Int like will be worth while, dont have that many spells atks altho they are the strongest in our repertoir, and the heal crit could be really useful.</P>

[Tazr]

<DIV>I still raid lab and lyceum a ton, and sporadically main tank, so fearless morale is awesome for me.</DIV>

[Aamad]

Spell crits aren't just for your spells, it affects procs people put on you and damage shields ( as well as our own group and self procs), and adds a bit o dmg to our ae's and consecrate hehe. The way I looked at it, having melee, spell and heal crits,  it just makes you more effective with every click of a button. As for Fearless, /shrug I cannot remember one time I've gotten feared and it been detrimental in a raid. <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Aamadex on <span class=date_text>07-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:50 PM</span>

[Buss]

<P>I have tried both going down the INT line and then down the STR line for use of a Axe.   I may be wrong, but it seems to me the dps equals out with the haste and what not. Has anyone else tired this?  I had the INT line and my dps was 400-500 on raids, then I moved to the STR and my dps is now closer to 600.   I've read some of you out there getting 800+ dps.  Can you tell me what kind of group setup you have on a raid?  I usually am in a 2nd tank group. Tank, myself, necro, and a healer of some sort.   Once in awhile I get a dirge.  any help on squeezing out more dps would be VERY helpful.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks</P> <P> </P>

[Leawyn]

<DIV>I used to be str, and switched to int. My dps went from ~300ish to ~450ish... I now am usually over 500, closer to 600, with some new weapons and gear I've acquired. I am in the process of slowly peicing together an str/int gear for when I'm not tanking or off tanking/back up healing. When I'm JUST pure dps hehe. Which is pretty rare admittedly... lol!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. I also found that i was able to hold agro, especially group agro, better with spell crits than I ever could have with +5% hate increase.</DIV>

[Buss]

What weapon are you using.. I maxed out the axe haste and so forth in the STR line.. I find if I use my two hander which has higher dmg output my dps was lower then when I went the INT line, but I am seeing a better dps rate with my one hand axe on the str line.  I hvae not gotten a good two hander axe yet.. so maybe that will be even better.

[Leawyn]

<DIV>I was using a 2 hand hammer from HOF on raids most of the time, so I could use hammer ground with all the rest of my AE's. I recently got the 2h from Vyemm, so I'm using that now (and it bumped up my dps ~75-100), and just don't use hammer ground hehe. It really depends on the group setup (i'm almost always in a secondary tank group or a "second healer" for a group, so sometimes my gear setups are a little different.</DIV>

[Caetrel]

I just respec'd to 4-4-8-5 Int but have yet to parse.  I expect 10-20% more damage than what I did with the STR line (think I had 4-4-4-4-<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  INT makes so much more sense as the main thing you benefit from STR is haste- and you can get that from other classes in a raid. As for the 5 points in healing crit, I think that's well spent.  Just testing on my own heals are crit about 40% of the time or more.  If anything I may take some points out of the STA line and make crit healing a full 8. STA/INT seems to be the way to go after having tested everything out (except agility, bleh). As far as raid DPS there is a long thread on that somewhere.  With Wurmslayer it is easy to parse 800+ in the droag raid zones, much higher if you can AOE.  If you can't be fit into a good DPS group to max your haste and dps mod, try getting in with a Fury for their INT buff and dps/haste proc, that alone will greatly improve your damage.  Troub spell procs are nice too.  Nothing beats 100% dps/haste though <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Also there is a decent INT potion if you are shy of cap. <div></div>

[Sabrekong]

<P>This is how I have my AAs setup, and it's actually the best setup I've had yet (MTing raids and such wise):</P> <P>STR 4 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0</P> <P>AGI 5 / 4 / 4 / 8 / 0</P> <P>STA 8 / 4 / 4 / 8 / 0</P> <P>WIS 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0</P> <P>INT 0 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0</P> <P> </P> <P>I chose the AGI line instead of say STR (I agree with Itoock, WIS line is craptastic...although INT is pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] terrible too) because the extra defense bonus from the 2nd last skill (Higher Ground), along with the chance of proccing an immunity to knockdown stuns is really [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] handy....also being able to attack up to 4 enemies simulataneously by just autoattacking with the Trample skill is handy as all hell if mobs can't be mezzed for whatever reason (or there's no mezzer at all), although it's a double edged sword since you will break mezzes with the skill...</P> <P>But other than that I've gone down the STR line, found it to be a little disappointing, WIS / INT don't even interest me because they have nothing of real use (yeah crits can be helpful, but shouldn't have to be relying on a chance of critting all the time), and before AGI didn't look too appealing at 1st, but after checking out the skills in it a bit, I'm actually very glad I went down this line / setup.</P>

[Hakan]

<DIV>Regarding the original post, the Wisdom AA line is designed around group benefit... all the abilities enhance the group except the last one, fearless.  It would be far more consistent to have fearless be a group ability.  On a side note, I think the Wisdom line far from uselss... it raises resists and mana pool and you get 6 points per aa: more efficient than any line except Int.  I suppose after a while at level 70 with all your stats maxed, that might not matter, but you can reroll. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are going to raid as a Paladin... your DPS shouldn't really be primary anyway, whereas combat leadership and the skill/damage/cast time boosts all increase the dps of other classes, for a greater total benefit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The weapon limitations should be considered too... swords are pretty easy to come by.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hakanek</DIV>

[Kainen]

<P>I'm not really sure what our MAIN role should be there are so many varying opinions.  Yeah, we can tank the mobs, however most guilds don't have faith in our ability so if they are down a guardian they go with what they know, a Zerker.    We also lose our shirts to Zerkers on DPS parses, or atleast that is my experience.    Infact in all the reading I have done it appears of the plat tank classes paladins equally geared and equally played would dole out the least amount of dps of all classes (Zerker, Guardian, Sk)   Jump if i'm wrong here guys.     I to have been playing alot with my AA's and at 13plat a pop I sure wish I could find a clear winner.    My last two attempts brough me some interesting results.  I am mostly fabled wiht a good amount of my spells Master I's and or Adept III's.    I frist tried going the INT / STA / Agi line for the trample affect also.   This seemed to really help me soloing on horseback. I found I was parsing upwards of 1500dps on some green mobs.  However apon return to labs and clearing trash my dps was back down to 350-500 on a consistent basis.   So the next week i respected and went down teh STR line, full haste, full axe haste and down the STA line  full out.    I loaded up my Planar Axe and shield and found my dps was a bit better.  I was parsing up as high as 600dps.   I can't help but think I am still lacking here though since i hear paladins who are not in the MT gropu are hitting 700-800 easily.     I am thinking if I get a good Two Hand Axe with a dmg rating around 107 I can add 75 to 100dps taking me up into that range.   Any comments or suggestions guys. I can only assume you are all going to tell me to drop the STR and go back to INT..     I don't disagree, but if your primary weapon is an Axe the STR line seems to make sense to me.   When i swithc out for any other type of weapon with a higher DPS raiting my dps drops and does not go up using this AA setup.    Input please.. Love to hear you thoughs.</P> <P> </P> <P>Kainen</P> <P>Now on Guk </P> <P> </P>

[Aamad]

<DIV> <DIV>Yeah when I tried the str line I lacked a good axe, and still don't have a good one lol, but a lot of our dps is just plain ol auto-attack hehe. Try getting a 2handed axe and giving it a try. I doubt I'll ever change from sta / int myself. </DIV></DIV>

[Caetrel]

<div></div>In short, the most effective paladin DPS is going to come from a pally with max haste and dps, capped INT, a bad-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] 2 hander, and max spell crits.   Here is the problem with the STR line (it's decent, but I just got rid of it).  The only real benefit is haste.    Troubs, Monks, Illusionists, Inqs, Furies and  Zerkers with procs, they all give good haste.  Prolly a few other classes do too.  It is pretty easy to arrange 2 melee dps groups in a raid so that everyone is at or near cap dps/ haste mods.   And the things is, you can get all the haste you want if you don't get the dps mod to go with it your damage will be limited, so the neccesity of being in a well buffed group is there.   So to me spending all my AA for haste seemed like a waste. I just posted a list of what is and is not affected by spell crits.   That might help in deciding if the INT line is a worthy replacement for the STR/ haste line.  <div></div><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class=date_text>07-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:33 PM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>As much as it hurts me to disagree with saphi, I feel the fearless line is a waste of points.</P> <P>I went down STA--  8-4-8-8</P> <P>                    INT--    4-5-8-5</P> <P>The extra hitpoints from the STA line and the extra int for nuking, more meele, spell, and heal crits seemed much, much more useful than extra haste, + skills, fearless, or aggro.</P> <P>As far as Im concerned, A paly should never have aggro problems, and if you position yourself correctly, when you get feared it shouldnt really matter. To me, a paly has 2 roles...tanking or healing, and thats why I went STA and INT.</P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>As much as it hurts me to disagree with saphi, I feel the fearless line is a waste of points.</P> <P>I went down STA--  8-4-8-8</P> <P>                    INT--    4-5-8-5</P> <P>The extra hitpoints from the STA line and the extra int for nuking, more meele, spell, and heal crits seemed much, much more useful than extra haste, + skills, fearless, or aggro.</P> <P>As far as Im concerned, A paly should never have aggro problems, and if you position yourself correctly, when you get feared it shouldnt really matter. To me, a paly has 2 roles...tanking or healing, and thats why I went STA and INT.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For the last 2 months i have had my AA selection as Sta 4/4/4/4 Wis 4/4/5/4 and Int 4/4/4/4. I liked the setup and the skill bonus to the group was nice. 2 weeks ago roughly i used my free reset and changed my AA choices to STA 4/5/8/8 and INT 4/4/8/8 and i really like it so far. I raised my crit chances for melee 13%, spell 35%, heal 32% to 25% melee, 69% spell, 63% heal, factoring in the mark of the awakened amulet that gives +2% melee and native crit chances of plus 1. My sheer amount of DPS increase coupled with increased crits on heals/wards seem more of a benefit to my group then the health regen i gave them. The skill bonus i still wish i had for group fizzle reduction and damage, but it was the only truely useful aa for me in the wisdom line. I usually find myself in 1,2,3 healer groups where their wisdom buffs more than make up the 24 wisdom loss i had from not having 4 points into wisdom. Putting the extrapoint into Hammer Ground gives me a AOE guaranteed 2.4 second stun with no resist that i can tell. Maxxing out at 8 points for my health percentage increase yields a total of 4% max health, which applies to current max health(nice to see when a necro,templer and guardian join your group how that factors in).</P> <P>A while back i respecced my character traits and went the +10 native power regen trait versus 5% health bonus. With the increased crit chances, the better power regen(especially if i put some FT gear on, and the extra health in the stamina line coupled with going further in the claymore series gear, i feel my pallie is just getting better each day. I may readjust when i pick up gear that puts me closer to maxing out specific stats, but i think i will be at this selection for awhile to test it out further...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR>

[Leawyn]

Oh Steel, I knew I'd bring you to the "dark side" of spell crits <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Taipans]

<P>How many T7 mobs are heavy on the FEAR? I can think of two... Just wondering if there is more higher up on the way to Death Toll?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<DIV>Wow. My board time has been a little limited lately so I haven't had a good chance to step back in and comment but I'm pleased how much discussion was garnered... Even off topic as it was. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In no way though was it a critique of which AA line to choose. Rather, I just think that the Fearless ability should effect all group members. It just makes sense the way the Wisdom line as a whole is setup.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pathin Merrithay wrote:<div>Wow. My board time has been a little limited lately so I haven't had a good chance to step back in and comment but I'm pleased how much discussion was garnered... Even off topic as it was. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>In no way though was it a critique of which AA line to choose. Rather, I just think that the Fearless ability should effect all group members. It just makes sense the way the Wisdom line as a whole is setup.</div><hr></blockquote>I still <3 you Saffi - I have been a bit on edge recently, so umm don't mind anything I might have said</div>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE>I still <3 you Saffi - I have been a bit on edge recently, so umm don't mind anything I might have said<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Noticed.... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pathin Merrithay wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wow. My board time has been a little limited lately so I haven't had a good chance to step back in and comment but I'm pleased how much discussion was garnered... Even off topic as it was. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In no way though was it a critique of which AA line to choose. Rather, I just think that the Fearless ability should effect all group members. It just makes sense the way the Wisdom line as a whole is setup.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I still <3 you Saffi - I have been a bit on edge recently, so umm don't mind anything I might have said<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I still vote for you to try giving a poo and a half!</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Leawyn wrote:<BR> Oh Steel, I knew I'd bring you to the "dark side" of spell crits <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hey i do play for a guild called Disciples of Evil, heheh.  How you doing Leawyn?  I have picked up a few pieces of gear to help me now, have the dragonscale earrings, won a random roll on the 2 handed awesome hammer in trial 4 of the mark of the awakened from the named warden( at work so i cant remember the name, but when i equip it it makes my dwarf 2 feet taller).  I am also holding onto a unattuned kite shield from Cyaendros in Sanctum of the Scale.  Also won a roll for Barakar(sp) Cleaver in POA for when i feel like a Axe.  Also Firebrand gauntlets from relic farming a week and a half ago, and working on the dragonscale sash on the claymore side.  Went back to Tier 6 and finally finished the handcrafted music box by finding the elusive Amber beetle.   On Hold for the moment on getting Wurmslayer, as we need to take down Lord Vyremm and Harla Darr, and want to do it as a guild and not via a pickup raid.  Good times on the crits for me, i think i rarely use anything but adamantine hammer or my 2 handed hammer anymore..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Leawyn]

Doin good Steel. Sorry if I didn't respond to any tells last night. I was at someone else's house last night and I am not used to their layout to say the least! My Coercer is leveling up nicely, will be a nice compliment to my pally depending on the raid needs. Looking forward to her getting through these next 15 levels!

[Rarlin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pathin Merrithay wrote:<BR> <DIV>I really, really, really want the final ability of the Wisdom AA line to provide Fearless to the entire group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, our labs Helm needs to be fixed so it's castable while stunned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is all. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I just wanted the fearless to work for me...</P> <P>It was quite troublesome to put all those AA points into a Fearless ability, only to get feared over and over every week in the Labs.  After a few weeks I used one of our free respecs and haven't gone back.</P>