How desirable Are Paladins in Raids/Groups/Guilds

[eromon]

<DIV>hello all, i have only recently started EQ2 with a lvl 32 Wizard so far, i dont enjoy dieing so much when i try to solo quest/writs etc and even in groups the worts thing i sometimes encounter is a timid tank who takes their time  (i mean like ur telling them to go and they just stand there expecting me!! the wizard to lead from the front  lol). anyway i wanted a class that didnt die so much, could survive solo due to some  sorta heals  ( hate having to w8 for health regen on my wizard when i decide to solo mobs, and root is mostly resisited). now im wondering whether this class will be easy to find a group in as a MT  and whether Raid Guild would actually want me, i saw a post the other day cant remember where, but a Guild Lead er said Paladins where even lucky to be invited into Raid Groups. For normal groups from what i have heard i wont have a problem getting in as MT. anyways i would like ur opinions on these things please...in a c<SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>ontrsuctive manner please  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   and hopefully as with so many post  this wont go too off topic  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></SPAN></DIV>

[Caetrel]

<div></div>To be blunt, paladins are not going to be desired in most if any raiding guilds.  We are b tanks, b healers, b dps.  I have MT'd most t7 raid mobs, but in most every case a warrior is going to be more desired.   I RL for my guild, so I am not coming from the perspective of a disgruntled crusader.    I'm not saying paladins are useless, but they don't bring alot to the raid and most guilds will scoff.  People only want plate tanks as MT/OT and pallies are perceived to be poor in either role.   For grouping IMNSHO we are the best tank in the game by far.  Raids, not so good. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Caetrel on <span class=date_text>07-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:31 PM</span>

[eromon]

<DIV>that is a real shame...it means i will probably have to go as one of the scout classes then cause i really want to try out Raids eventually. So annoying, pallies seem like such a cool class to play and seem like one of the best Fighter classes to play as well  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Chilv]

I can't fully agree on the above. While it is true that most hardcore raiding guilds don't need or want Paladins there are still a lot of smaller guilds that raid quite often and do have Paladins on their raids. My guild for example is more like a family style guild which raids 2-3 times a week and i am like always accepted into the raid when i have time to play.Our tools can help the raid a lot, amends on high dps or debuffers makes them live longer, our battlerez is unique ( i think ) giving our target full health after being rezzed, we can ward and heal people who have taken damage for whatever reason. We can also beef up the MT a bit if necessary, tank unexpected adds, intercept damage and so on.In general i would not say Paladins are not desired on raids, there are better tanks better dps and better healers for sure, but imho we do have a role on raids.Don't give up on your Paladin just because you think you'll never get a spot in the top dog raiding guild on your server, unless you really really want to join them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>Personally i can say i love my Paladin, solo in groups and on raids.

[Kaleyen]

This is something that has been concerning me for the past few weeks.  I play on a PvP server so things are a bit different, number wise there aren't a whole lot of guardians (because of their poor dps, classes that can "survive" a ganking are what 90% of the server has).  I'm about to hit 60 and my guild is doing some T6 content for raiding, I see now that I won't ever be a raid tank because of my class.  There are two beserkers that are my level (59) and one higher then me, it doesn't matter which AA line I go down, or how carefully I pick my gear and have more HP and Mit then them, I won't be that raid tank because I am Crusader where as Zerkers are the warriors.Yes, dissapointed to say the least, I wish I would have been a Guardian.However, Pallys are completely useless in a Raid, and for PvE/PvP hunting groups, we excel over guardians and in some instances zerkers too.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

Do a search of the forums, and you will see 1000 posts about the viability of raid tanking as a Paladin.  Some people believe we can't do it, other (like myself) know we can (and have)....Granted I do believe we could use some changes, mainly in the mitigation department (or something to counter balance that with Arcane damage) - but a skilled / geared Paladin can raid just fine.

[spector270]

<DIV>It seems to me that each tank has thier own types of raid mobs that they are the best at tanking.  I am in a high end raiding guild and i have tanked every t7 raid mob including tarinax.  I may not be the first choise for every mob but certain ones scream for some pally lovin <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Each guild has to develop the strats that work for them and while most high end raiding guild will not load up on pally's they all usually have at least one. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In group we are uber because someone has to keep the casters alive <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Naemo</DIV> <DIV>Sovereign - Crsuhbone</DIV>

[eromon]

<DIV>no worries Chilvod there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i have decided that even if i do eventually end up rolling a swashy or Brigand i will also roll a Paladin eventually,  but cant imagine rolling a swashy and Pally cause it meens going throught the overly cheerfull Qeynos part of the game like 2 times, which would probably mean for a month or half a month i will just be in TS  or Antonica lol  no way am i doing that... but swashy also looks good, but thats another topic  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   thanks all for your opinions and i dont really intend to get into an overlly Raid Geared Guild, a Family Raid Guild is probably more geared to what i want from this game,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS  im looking for a Good Family Raid Guild on The Spiltpaw Server  btw so if any read this and know of an good ones PM me.....thanks loads peeps </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: sry forgot bout this question but......i would have thought that Paladins have the higest resist therefor are best at tanking certain T7 mobs, if this is not the case then T7 mobs should be more varied in their Damage type to balance it out, if there is a cap on resist that Guardians can easily reach then Cap should be increased, it only seems fair that if Guardians have amazing Mitigation and skills to boost their Mit my amazing amounts that we then have the same but in this case for attribute damage, this would also go a long way to helping SK's how would have high resist against disease, mobs T7 mobs shouldnt always be simply huge physical Damage  thus requiring the highest Mitigation warrior varying it this way ( huge Divine damage instead) would i think make Paladins a hell of a lot more desriable to have, we wont be the uber class but we will at least be more usefull in end game content.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by eromon84 on <SPAN class=date_text>07-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:25 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by eromon84 on <span class=date_text>07-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:42 AM</span>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> eromon84 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: sry forgot bout this question but......i would have thought that Paladins have the higest resist therefor are best at tanking certain T7 mobs, if this is not the case then T7 mobs should be more varied in their Damage type to balance it out, if there is a cap on resist that Guardians can easily reach then Cap should be increased, it only seems fair that if Guardians have amazing Mitigation and skills to boost their Mit my amazing amounts that we then have the same but in this case for attribute damage, this would also go a long way to helping SK's how would have high resist against disease, mobs T7 mobs shouldnt always be simply huge physical Damage  thus requiring the highest Mitigation warrior varying it this way ( huge Divine damage instead) would i think make Paladins a hell of a lot more desriable to play, we wont be the uber class but we will at least be more usefull in end game content.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by eromon84 on <SPAN class=date_text>07-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:25 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>At one point that was the case. However, the resists on jewelry and gear have gotten so ridiculously high that it is very possible for just about anyone to cap out their resists, even without potions, etc. Hell, I've gotten some of my resists to almost 12,000 in a group....and I don't go shopping for specific resist items, with rare exception. Of course, 12k is extreme overkill for anything in the game at present, AFAIK.</P> <P>I would like to say that I don't believe that raiding guilds don't want paladins. I think it's more a condition of them not needing *as many* so once they have one or 2 that raid consistantly, they don't look for more.</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P>

[Aamad]

We may not be the first choice for MT thats true. But we do come in handy. Most guilds will like having a paladin around to transfer Mit, or group heal or a million other things. I mean at worst we are transfer mit [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es. lol. Its not like we don't have things to do. If geared well, we can tank most anything, or pick up the aggro when a MT loses it on a memblur or gets charmed. I'd think sk's are a lil bit luckier getting invited to raid groups than pallies <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Aside from like...the same mit transfer, despoiling mist, and a sta instead of a group wisdom buff...they really are kind of hurting in the utility department.<p>Message Edited by Aamadex on <span class=date_text>07-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:52 PM</span>

[Caetrel]

I was replying to the question "would a raid guild want a paladin?".   Not the questions "is a paladin useful or can he tank?"  Subsequent posts here I can /agree with as pallies can form a role if they are great players, and they can MT on raids too. There is no doubt in my mind if you had a burning desire to be a raid MT paladin you could do it. But to the question, are raiding guilds going to want you?  No, they aren't.  To hardcore guilds you'd be a leper.  In the class desirability scale, we are way at the bottom.   But if you want to carve out a place for yourself as a raid paladin you can do it.  I think alot of us posting here have done just that, whether as tanks or as utility/dps, or both.   But it would be misleading to say that raiding guilds are anxious to aquire new paladins. <div></div>

[Kaleyen]

<blockquote><hr>Caetrel wrote:To hardcore guilds you'd be a leper. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Sad but true, trying to think of another class line besides Crusader that it can apply to and I'm coming up with blanks.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

Hardcore guild - checkTank raids for said guild - checkBeat every encounter in KoS - checkBTW - I have only been there for a little over a month, so it's not like I grew up with them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Mgunner]

<DIV>If you can do 1k DPS, you'll be more desireable. Combine that with mit transfer, battle rez, and be able to pick up a lose mob, you find many guilds that would want you.</DIV>

[Anariale]

<div></div>Not on par with Warriors for Tanking - checkNot on par with Warriors for Damage - checkNot on par with healers for Healing - checkEasily replaced by a more useful class on raids - CheckIm a Sr Officer and the Raid Leader for Ghosts of War on Permafrost.  We are the #2 guild on the server (behind Fires of Heaven, have to give them their props).  The *only* reason to take a Paladin on the raid is sympathy, as just about any class can better replace them.  TBH, at this point I think Id rather have an SK on the raid.  Healing isnt really an issue, and the SK would increase the DPS for the whole raid from their debuffs.Granted, Im probably the most bitter of the Paladins posting on these boards. W<div></div><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>07-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:48 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

Well I didn't mention I paid them to take me........kidding, I think<div></div>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>Granted, Im probably the most bitter of the Paladins posting on these boards. <BR><BR>W<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><STRONG>YOU!?!?!</STRONG> no.....

[Boethius_Permafrost]

Paladins are, in my opinion, the #1 group tank.  We are more than adequate for raiding, especially at the semi-casual level.  We can do the easier instances without a healer, and duo very effectively with a priest or dps.  In some ways, we approach overpowered, but without any single strength that is particularly effective in large scale raiding.If your goal is to become (quote) high end (end quote), and you have friends, then perhaps you do not want a class with much versatility.  They have a mentality of specialized roles and being the best in that role.  You need help to follow this route, so the pigeonhole should not hinder you.  Of course, if you're talking about getting into the top end raid guilds with a new character starting two years behind, without connections, then I don't think your class matters.  I, personally, would not want to go that far into raiding, so I will never encounter the "must have a guardian" people.<div></div>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaleyen wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caetrel wrote:<BR>To hardcore guilds you'd be a leper.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sad but true, trying to think of another class line besides Crusader that it can apply to and I'm coming up with blanks.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dunno. I still think it's more of a case that once a guild has a couple active paladins in it, it just doesn't feel the need for more. Diminishing returns and all that. I can't think of a single raiding guild on my server that doesn't have/make use of at least 1 paladin.</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P>

[Rocksthemic]

If you are looking to the be the first and best choice to MT on RAIDS, then choose a gaurdian. They are the best MT's for raids, period. This has been discussed on other threads. I agree with Wulfborne though. It is a matter of diminishing returns. If a hardcore raiding guild has one or two paladins with good raid attendance, they are not going to look for another. They are useful in raids as offtanks, back up healers/rezzers, and can intercept as well. A troubador is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good aggro reducer, but they cannot put reduce the hate of fighters. Paladins do rock the groups though. Imo we are the best group tanks around. Dps classes love us, healers love us, and for group content we can stand up to most any beating a mob can dish out. Thundaarr Unrest <Nightcap> <div></div>

[Leawyn]

<DIV>Honestly... the "diminishing returns" problem isn't soley for the paladin class. I believe EVERY class has a diminishing return if you have more than 2, especially if they're active raiders. Troubies are nice... but why have more than 2? You really only need one for the cast dps group. Brigs? Awesome for raids, but you really only need one for the debuffs. Defilers and their "cheaty heals" are awesome, but more than 2 and really, its overkill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See what I mean?</DIV>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Leawyn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Honestly... the "diminishing returns" problem isn't soley for the paladin class. I believe EVERY class has a diminishing return if you have more than 2, especially if they're active raiders. Troubies are nice... but why have more than 2? You really only need one for the cast dps group. Brigs? Awesome for raids, but you really only need one for the debuffs. Defilers and their "cheaty heals" are awesome, but more than 2 and really, its overkill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See what I mean?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>To an extent, I'd agree, but several other classes have something that we (as a general rule) are on the lower end of the spectrum on. Straight up, sustainable, drop-your-jaw DPS. Who cares if you have 3-4 stinking run speed buffs on ya? 3-4 scouts will put a mob in a hurt locker real quick. Got an entire group of finger wagglers on a raid? Bet they (collectively) take a HUGE portion of the mob's HP down.</P> <P>I'm not saying *every* other class has more desirability in quantities, but in many cases having more than 2 of a class can still give something significant to the raid.</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P>

[Boethius_Permafrost]

Nothing stacks quite like damage.  Not even healing. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Leawyn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Honestly... the "diminishing returns" problem isn't soley for the paladin class. I believe EVERY class has a diminishing return if you have more than 2, especially if they're active raiders. Troubies are nice... but why have more than 2? You really only need one for the cast dps group. Brigs? Awesome for raids, but you really only need one for the debuffs. Defilers and their "cheaty heals" are awesome, but more than 2 and really, its overkill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See what I mean?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>To an extent, I'd agree, but several other classes have something that we (as a general rule) are on the lower end of the spectrum on. Straight up, sustainable, drop-your-jaw DPS. Who cares if you have 3-4 stinking run speed buffs on ya? 3-4 scouts will put a mob in a hurt locker real quick. Got an entire group of finger wagglers on a raid? Bet they (collectively) take a HUGE portion of the mob's HP down.</P> <P>I'm not saying *every* other class has more desirability in quantities, but in many cases having more than 2 of a class can still give something significant to the raid.</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is true to an extent. BUT with raids as small as they are, its all strategic. Yeah, nukers stack with other nukers. But if you have 10 nukers on a 24 person raid, that isn't leaving much room for healers, tank, scouts and debuffers.

[Wulfborne]

Right. I guess my point was that a raid could do well with a paladin or 2, but rarely more than that, whereas a raid could probably function very well with 4-6 conjurors or necros. Ideally you'd have a good mix, though. I'm just saying that it's possible without losing quite as much functionality.~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<div></div>

[Anariale]

Meh, Id take 2 Guardians over a Guardian and a Paladin.  What is the Paladin REALLY adding here?Heck, Id take *ANY* tank class over a Paladin at this point, even an SK for their debuffs (given that there isnt one already on the raid).W<div></div>

[Anzak]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:Meh, Id take 2 Guardians over a Guardian and a Paladin.  What is the Paladin REALLY adding here?Heck, Id take *ANY* tank class over a Paladin at this point, even an SK for their debuffs (given that there isnt one already on the raid).W<div></div><hr></blockquote>Depends if you are talking about having 2 tank groups with a MT and a ST then yeah 2 guards will be the way to go.  But if you are talking about both in the same group a second guards buffs do not stack with the first so the pally would be a better option since the buffs stack and the pally can add 370ish mitigation to the tank.  Also the pally would be able to use group heal along with single target heal and ward to help with healing on the MT.I'm not going to beat the situational horse again since I think that topic is dead.  But there are 3 main things that keep pallies down as tanks.1) Pledge - We give up too much for a small gain but more importantly we can give that to another tank but there is really no good set up that would let another tank give the same to us.  You really wouldn't want two pallies or a pally and SK in the MT group when a pally guard/zerker combo will be better no matter which is tanking.2) Mitigation AAs - Guards and Zerkers get 320ish mitigation from AAs this is completely unanswered from crusadiers.  We used to have the cobalt tablet which gave us an edge and even the BP that drops off God king in T6 gave a slight edge to pallies but that was to make up for the lack of self mitigation buffs and it balanced out.  But with T7 there is no gear that makes up for the fact that warriors get an extra 320 mitigation on top of their mitigation buffs and tower of stone.  There is nothing a pally can do except accept the fact that no matter what they do they will always be about 3-4% weaking in mitigation than warriors and if you throw pledge in there it is more like 6-8% weaker.3) Self buffs/Abilities - The common arguement is that we get heals to make up for guards mitigation buffs.  But compair apples to apples here.  So the guards self mitigation buff and tower of stone vs our self heal.  Not only with either of the 2 guard self buffs stop more damage than our heal will recover both of them are useful as opposed to our self heal with the insance casting time which makes getting it off without an interrupt very hard not to mention the fact that by the time you do get it to land more than likely the healers have healed you to the point that it is useless.  Then throw in a recast of 5 minutes to make it even more useless.  Heck this spell is bearly useful in a group setting not to mention the fact that every day or two we have to go through our bags and delete all the essesnces we build up from our HP buff but that are needed to cast that spell.  Then top it all off with the heal is not that much more mana effective as our normal heal.Maybe someday SOE will live up to their promise of situational tanking but until then pallies can look foward to a roll as either a buff bot or not taken on a raid.</div>

[eromon]

thanks all for ur words of wisdom <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   but!!! <FONT color=#ffff99> </FONT><SPAN>Anariale</SPAN>!!!  u are THE.... MOST...BITTER, Paladin i have ever had the pleasure of meeting on these forums  lol  ur endless hate against ur own class is truly legendary <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  if there was a war between Guardians And Pallys i fully expect u to be with the guardiands  shouting DEATH TO THE PALADINS!!!! amongst the Guardians....with a quizzical look upon the Guardians faces....*sigh* but i understand that u simply hate SoE for nerfering ur class so bad, hopefully they will eventually fix this but they better make it fast  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  and yes even though i going into a class that is really under appreciated  im d<SPAN>efinitely</SPAN> going to give it my best shot and hopefully not set too bad an image for all Pallies with my amazingly uber bad tanking  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   Cya all  and thanks again

[Anzak]

Actually I would not say that is SOE nerfing our class so much as SOE not making the class what it should be.  Honestly we have not had to deal with many nerfs.  Sure the loss of DPS at LU13 was a big one and the amends nerf was pretty big as well.  Oh look we toning amends down so there will be a place for the next version later on...Oh nevermind your not getting another version but we still want the nerf in place.  There have been a few others but not really all that much.  As I said it is more they have not given us what we should have while guards get boosted to end all be all raid tank we really get nothing in return.<div></div>

[Ep]

Really, in a raid situation if you have similiar(not equal, but ok) skills/equip between a warrior and a pally, your raid is going to have the warrior tank and the pally pledge/ma. Why would you not do that? Maybe, amends on a bad nuker, But with just a dirge in my group i never loose aggro even on group epics, unless of course the nukers have it as thier number 1 objective to steal aggro. But are you going to have 2/3/4 pallies on the raid? hardly. Heck more than one warrior on a raid is wasteful, more if it's a guardian at least berserkers do dps =pSeriously raid situation wise, you have similiar warriors/pallies about, your raid is not going to ask the pally to tank. Not b/c pallies can't, but b/c it makes better use of the characters if the warrior tanks and pally pledge. Just like if you have an inq and templar on raid, templar to mt group for stoneskin and inq, to melee group.<div></div>

[Lairdragna]

I had my first go as MT on raid mobs tonight, including an epic named, because our Zerker who was supposed to attend decided not to and another one of our geared up guards/zerks wasn't on yet.  So that left me.  My gear is mostly legendary with a handful of fabled pieces thrown in.  We took the other crusader and put him in the MT group with me, the SK threw his mit on me and off we went.  I will admit to being scared [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]less... not because I was concerned about failing and having debt or repairs... but because I didn't want everyone else to have those because I dropped the ball.  Well we did ok, better than I would have expected given my mitigation buffed was only around 5k and out guardians and zerks usually are above 6k.  The one thing I do have over them is my resists by and large dwarf their's, and when raid buffed I was anywhere from 7-9k or higher on all of them.So yeah, we CAN tank, but unless really well geared and with the right AA and class/race spec choices... we probably shouldn't be the first choice for main tanking raid mobs.Having said that, I believe a paladin in the MT group is critical for everything we can do.  I don't think a guild that raids needs more than two which is where we are... me and a quickly leveling pally that is around 67, but we do have our place.Itoock is my hero!<div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>Hmmm, it is funny to see the various views on the state of being a paladin in a raid.  I agree that in the hardcore(raiding every day on high end content) guilds, pallies have less value to straight classes that are active generally.  The question you have to ask, what is the total percentage of guilds per server and together worldwide that meet this defination versus the more casual raid guilds?  I can safely say the majority of the guilds out there think 2-3 times a week is a good raiding schedule and due to RL life issues such as family, work and other things, many guilds have a core amount of guildees attending the raids with a another group of floaters that can make it some of the time.  My guild i like to think is a very nice guild that fits under the casual guild/hardcore guild borders.  We raid normaly 3 times a week and try to help guildees on heritages/quest lines and leveling when we can.  We have 3 active pallies in our roster and most of the time we have at least 2 of the 3 on the raid.  Does our guild feel gimped because we have pallies on the raid?  I think not, we are the favorites for our warlock brethren, we battle rez people, we offtank adds when MT/MA goes down, we toss group heals/wards/heals on mage scout classes and other healers that are focused on healing the MT.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We work with the people that can login and structure our raid as best we can, sure some nights are easier than others, but generally the loot is good and we have bragging rights after.  I finally picked up a firebrand guantlet this sunday and can now retire my gem encrusted gauntlet.   If you are a diehard Min/Maxer then pallie may not be the best choice for you.  If you like a little more relaxed archtype that has many choices they can go down thru on gear/AA choices and traits, then a hybrid pallie may be the choice for you.  I have many friends from other classes that complain they have little choices in their AA selection, I tell them i wish i had another 50 points to spend to get all the good choices available myself...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Wulfborne]

<DIV>On a side note, it's also fun to get your guildies or groupmates better informed through use of creative taunting...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"HA! I saved your sorry over-nuking butt that time, Wizzy!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Oooooh! I saw ya purple line and felt sorry for you, Mr. MT. Have another shot of my ward FTW!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Now come on... Any ratonga assasin worth his salt knows better than to run that combo more than twice in a row. Next time Rescue just 'might not be available' so you can become smarter. =p"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(This one while rezzing the MT *and* tanking the mob he dropped on the group) "Sometimes you gotta take your licks when learning to live in a Man's world, son. Now pick yourself up, and get back in there any try again!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When directed at the right people and at appropriate times, it emphasizes what we are capable of, while sticking it into their memories with a bit of humor. Over time, everyone seeks you out for groups and raids. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</DIV>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote:<BR> <DIV>On a side note, it's also fun to get your guildies or groupmates better informed through use of creative taunting...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"HA! I saved your sorry over-nuking butt that time, Wizzy!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Oooooh! I saw ya purple line and felt sorry for you, Mr. MT. Have another shot of my ward FTW!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Now come on... Any ratonga assasin worth his salt knows better than to run that combo more than twice in a row. Next time Rescue just 'might not be available' so you can become smarter. =p"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(This one while rezzing the MT *and* tanking the mob he dropped on the group) "Sometimes you gotta take your licks when learning to live in a Man's world, son. Now pick yourself up, and get back in there any try again!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When directed at the right people and at appropriate times, it emphasizes what we are capable of, while sticking it into their memories with a bit of humor. Over time, everyone seeks you out for groups and raids. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Heheh i think i may start adopting these changes, i have been reading up on the macros but havent had much time to make the ones i want yet.  Looking at adding /raidsay announcements on many of my spells to help on communication...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>