Anyone as sick of this as I am?

[Kenji11]

<DIV>How many times have you been asked to come to a raid, for the sole purpose of pledging another tank? And how often has that tank been weaker than yourself?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sick of being told, not asked, told, to give my mit to a gaurdian, and when its all said and done. I still have more mit and resists than that gaurd. The ONLY thing that most gaurdians have over me is hitpoints, thats the ONLY thing. Now, before anyone starts mouthing off about how gaurds have more taunts, and their temp mit buffs, and that reinforcement trick, I know all that, and here is my answer. I AM NOT A GAURD. I do not tank in that way. For everyone who says that you cannot cast anything while MT cause of interrupts is wrong. I have MT'd lab trash before, sometimes two groups of 3 at a time, and still was able to get off my ward almost every time, and a few group heals now and then after an aoe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as far as aggro issues are concerned, yes, a gaurdian has more taunts, and they have reinforcement which allows them to easily take aggro off of anyone. I have taunts, and I have amends, if I put amends on someone who really knows what they are doing, then the only way a gaurd will take aggro off me is rescue or reinforcement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>More to the point, I am very very tired of people claiming that gaurdians are the only raid tank. We have 6 tanks, why do people pigheadedly believe that gaurdians are the only ones who can do it? In a way I feel sorry for guardians... This is all they are good for, aside from getting the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] beaten out of them, they are useless... Why? Why is it so hard to find gaurdians a non-mt use?</DIV> <DIV>Hmm, how about if their Sustain line could be cast on anyone in the raid, and tune it more like stone sphere, where the target would take almost no damage, and the guard may take less than all the intercepted damage. So they can use thier damage taking abilities, even when not the MT, or even in the MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically give the gaurds some utility, and make the other tanks a bit stronger, so gaurds will still be the "best" choice, but only by a small margin.</DIV>

[Anariale]

<div></div><div></div>Time to face the harsh cold reality that is EQ2.Paladins are subpar raid tanks.  -- You think your mit might be better, but its not.  Guardians have self and group mit buffs that put them over the edge.  Not to mention AA's and the ability to receive a Crusader Mit buff without weakening a raid group.-- You think your aggro-holding might be better, but its not.  Guardians have more taunts that recycle more often in addition to a reactive taunt that fires passively through the fight.  They can even taunt through stuns and without power, which Paladins cannot (even though Guardians use power slower than Paladins).-- You think your damage output might be better, but its not.  Guardians can double attack 70% of the time, parsing for up to 1K DPS while in defensive stance, taking less damage than a Paladin.-- You think your utility might be better, but its not.  Guardians have Tower of Stone and 20%+ Chance of Stoneskin to save their behinds.  You have only Divine Aura (VERY sub par to either of the above) and your 5-year Cast Time self heal.The bottom line is Paladins are sub par tanks right now.  If youre asked to a raid to just give mitigation... be happy you were even asked to go, since even an SK is a better choice for the raid at this point.Sorry, but thats the cold hard truth.Wyrd- Officer, Raid Leader, Ghosts of War, Permafrost(2nd guild on Perma to kill Tarinax, after Fires of Heaven)<div></div><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class="date_text">07-02-2006</span> <span class="time_text">03:45 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>07-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:22 PM</span>

[Nevar]

<P>Ok, id like to throw my 2 cents into this. I tank fine, never have an issues on any mob BUT Guards are a bit better do to a few utility spells they get for tanking. Our utility comes in when we off tank and heal/ward. Warriors in general make a better tank do to aggro capabilites and there tanking utility.</P> <P>And secondly Shadowknights suck. I do not see a purpose for them and nor does my guild lol. They just kinda stand there and act like they do something but whatever.</P>

[Kenji11]

<DIV>and this of course coming from a gaurd. Far as being unable to taunt while stunned, I can siphon hate off of someone in my group. So lets say, I have a wizard in my group doing 1000 dps on a mob, with the damage:hate ration being 1:1, I am constantly getting 410 hate/sec doing absolutly nothing. If I find a better person, who does more dps, or generates more aggro in general, then as long as they are live and have power, I am constantly getting about 500 hate/sec, plus my taunts, plus my dps (low as it may be).</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kenji1134 on <span class=date_text>07-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>

[Anariale]

Feel free to look up Wyrd on Permafrost.  You can clearly see that I play a Paladin.<div></div>

[Kenji11]

then why do you have the guard symbol with your username?

[Anariale]

Its just an icon, bro.  Changed it for you.  Happy?<div></div>

[Boethius_Permafrost]

If your complaint is that pickup raids can sometimes suck ...  deal with it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Now, while I don't mind deferring to an equal warrior, I would not defer to a much lesser warrior, for the good of the raid.  However, when you sign on, you agree to follow the raid leader's decisions to at least some degree.  If the raid is run by a core group, they may be used to each other and things could run more smoothly with weaker individual parts, anyhow.  Or maybe not. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Kenji11]

Practically every situation in which this happens I am with a guild, not a pickup. Ussually when I join a pickup, half the time I wind up being the MT. <div></div>

[WLR]

<P>Wyrd is absolutely spot-on. Can Paladins tank any raid mob, successfully? Yes they can. Can Gaurdians do it better? Categorically, the answer is yes. If the Gaurd and Pally are equally equiped, the Gaurd , hands down, is the better option. The tools that Gaurds have, at their disposal, allow them to handle agro and spike dmg much better than any Paladin. And those are the key elements in being a raid tank. On the other hand, the tools that Paladins have, to make up for their lack of hps, mit, and the ability to take spike dmg are dreadfully inadequate, compared to that of a Gaurd. The only area that I see being comparable, is the ability to maintain agro. However, in the end, Gaurds win out in this area as well.</P> <P>70 Paladin, Lucan D'Lere</P>

[MeridianR]

Personally I think we are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good OT's with our skill set....and also in the same group as a Guardian normally my HP is a couple hundred higher.  Can we MT, yes...and yes I have had a part in MTing almost every encounter in the game....Granted Guardians do have some skills that give them an edge in raid MTing (see above posts), as well as there Mitigation AA's....but we can do the job if needed.Now, that isn't saying I don't think we could use some loving <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - Personally I think an AE ward for X amount of time (comparable to a Guardian's Temp Mit buffs) would be a nice addition, that isn't too powerful...but gives us some distinction. (This would be for both Crusaders, since Sk's need some loving as well)<div></div>

[Rocksthemic]

<blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:Personally I think we are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good OT's with our skill set....and also in the same group as a Guardian normally my HP is a couple hundred higher.  Can we MT, yes...and yes I have had a part in MTing almost every encounter in the game....Granted Guardians do have some skills that give them an edge in raid MTing (see above posts), as well as there Mitigation AA's....but we can do the job if needed.Now, that isn't saying I don't think we could use some loving <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - Personally I think an AE ward for X amount of time (comparable to a Guardian's Temp Mit buffs) would be a nice addition, that isn't too powerful...but gives us some distinction. (This would be for both Crusaders, since Sk's need some loving as well)<div></div><hr></blockquote> I agree 100% with the above statement. Thundaarr Unrest <Nightcap><div></div>

[Anariale]

I agree, Paladins really are great 2T's or OT's.  We arent good MT's, but can work if necessary... even though it will be much more difficult than with a Guardian.Im still of the mindset that Paladins could use the following changes:1)  Pledge line - Remove Penalty, make Conc buff (very simple solution to the Paladins single largest tanking issue)2)  Reduce casting times on heals / wards by 1 second each, make Sacrament and Castigate instant-cast.  This yields the same Heal over time amounts, but just allows to get our heals off quicker.  We are in-combat healers, not stand back ranged healers.3)  Make Divine Favor better (like 1/1000th as good as even the Berserker's death ward would be nice)4)  Do something to boost our ranged damage to the level of other tanks5)  Combine Magic and Divine damage type for once and for all6)  Personal Choice here, but Id like to see the feature of our "double damage to undead" changed to some kind of group heal proc, but thats not really a "necessary change" per se.<div></div>

[Jonaroth]

I'd throw my 2 cents out here but it seems like every time I try and bring attention to the paladin issues, stupid paladins like to say we don't have any problems <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   But I completely agree with the OP and the 2 next posters here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I mean whats the point of a paly on a raid anyhow other than give a guardian more Mitt? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that, I'm working on getting a guardian to 70 atm, and then I can make some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] paly give me his armor even if he is better equipted. <div></div>

[Rast]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR>I agree, Paladins really are great 2T's or OT's.  We arent good MT's, but can work if necessary... even though it will be much more difficult than with a Guardian.<BR><BR>Im still of the mindset that Paladins could use the following changes:<BR>1)  Pledge line - Remove Penalty, make Conc buff (very simple solution to the Paladins single largest tanking issue)<BR>2)  Reduce casting times on heals / wards by 1 second each, make Sacrament and Castigate instant-cast.  This yields the same Heal over time amounts, but just allows to get our heals off quicker.  We are in-combat healers, not stand back ranged healers.<BR>3)  Make Divine Favor better (like 1/1000th as good as even the Berserker's death ward would be nice)<BR>4)  Do something to boost our ranged damage to the level of other tanks<BR>5)  Combine Magic and Divine damage type for once and for all<BR>6)  Personal Choice here, but Id like to see the feature of our "double damage to undead" changed to some kind of group heal proc, but thats not really a "necessary change" per se.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would love to see our ward line be either insta cast or uninteruptable...  The very fact that we are a tank means we should be beat on, so why penalize us for doing what we should be doing by making it very difficult (if not down right impossible at times) to do what we are meant to do?  I'd also like to see our taunts be a little more effective...</P> <P>We don't need more mit, we have heals/wards to compensate for that, including one instacast one that can be done without any power what so ever.</P> <P>I think Pallies (with a few tweaks) could me solid MTs for raids (in fact, the best MT I've ever raided with was a pally, beat the zerker hands down with ease) and the tweaks wouldn't necessarily be ground breaking either (a little more taunt, faster or interuptable casting).<BR></P>

[TorturedOne21]

<P>I'll post this old post I made here because it essentially makes the same point I would be making</P> <P><EM>I agree with that person who has been running around talking about the WoW pally. I find that my heals serve their purpose, and that's all I need. I would hate it if the only thing I have going for me is that I am a good healer. You would start getting DYFJ (Do Your F-ing Job!) shouts from people who know that the only thing a pally is good for is heals.  </EM></P> <P><EM>-I don't raid very often so I can't comment on raids.</EM></P> <P><EM>-Group-wise, my heals are in case the healer gets preoccupied, and someone is about to bite it. I can jump in and after the fight I'll be getting pats on the back for saving several members of the group, possibly preventing a wipe. Or if someone dies and the healer is too busy trying to keep the MT alive, I can jump in with a rez and get that person back up and fighting again.</EM></P> <P><EM>-Duo-wise, the heals are perfect. I can duo with a damage dealer or another tank and between the two of us, there is still some capacity for support elements. And two pallies duoing are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard to kill.</EM></P> <P><EM>-soloing goes without saving. heals and wards are the only thing keeping me alive while I whittle my foe down. I still prefer soloing with my assassin, who can kill things in a matter of seconds, but if that mob ain't dead by then, my assassin's SOL. My pally, on the other hand, is his own back-up.</EM></P> <P><EM>Pallys are a hybrid class, that is something I acknowledge. Guardians are better tanks, Templars are better healers. my role is to let the experts do their job, while I provide back-up and support. Although I'm not a [Removed for Content] about it, I usually find myself gravitating towards a leadership role, someone who people listen too, because rather than focusing on a singular task, I can provide a sort of overwatch, and help the group shift focus if need be. </EM></P> <P><EM>I'm not bossy about it, I don't join the group saying "you guys should listen to every word I say because this is what I do." That just pisses people off. But by being someone who is everywhere he needs to be, people are more inclined to listen to what I have to say. Especially when it comes to tank/healer relations, from the tanks perspective that he always needs someone watching his back, and from the healers perspective that the tank needs to keep the mobs in front of his face. aggro management is a group process, some times people need to be reminded of it.</EM></P> <P><EM>In conclusion, I am quite happy that my class is best geared for a leadership position. The advantage is immaterial so a lot of people don't know it's there. But hell, being a leader is what a paladin is all about, isn't it? I'll take that over better tanking or better healing any day.</EM></P> <P><EM>Message Edited by TorturedOne21 on <SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>06-14-2006</FONT></SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:11 AM</SPAN></EM> </P> <P>The point I was making with that post, and what I am making now, is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. Gander over to the Guardian forums. Ever heard louder complaining? They are mad because the only thing they are good at is being an impassible meat mountain. Now run over to the Healers forums. Theirs is a more subdued sort of complaining, like they are weary of the fact that they can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.</P> <P>I am actually really happy with where Paladins are right now. Wouldn't change a thing. If they were ever made too good, they would get nerfed to worse than they are now, so I will take what I got now <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Anariale]

<div></div>To Tortured:  Whats the hardest mob you have killed in T7?Hehe, MeridianR, I know youre top knotch.  You can tell from reading your posts.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>07-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:12 PM</span>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:Whats the hardest mob you have killed in T7?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Not sure who you are talking to here....but if it's me, name one other then Adventure Pack contested, Chel'drak <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Brigh]

Paladin ward used to take less time to cast.Now it is longer with more chance to be interrupted.Bad thing for pvp.I remember how it was originally in PVE.

[Sedi]

<DIV>"I'd throw my 2 cents out here but it seems like every time I try and bring attention to the paladin issues, stupid paladins like to say we don't have any problems <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   But I completely agree with the OP and the 2 next posters here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe we say we dont have problems because we dont. I used to think we did, hell i even had like a freaking arguement like 5 pages long with Naggash(or w/e that clueless guardian). but if maybe u just actually played your class instead of whining about what others got all day long you would find that Paladin's can and do tank. yes they arent as good as a warrior, but we arent supposed to. our utility is else where. get over it.<BR><BR>FYI, im not bashing your post. just quoted it cause im tired of people saying the same crap over and over and over and over and over and over.....</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sedila on <span class=date_text>07-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:02 PM</span>

[R2Chie]

it used to clearly tell you in the old chat boxes when choosing a fighting class what paladins were described as. Sorry but you moan that you have to put pledge on, its a good buff dont get me wrong, but thats 1 persons change, make a pally mt and youll need both a coercer and dirge just for them to hold agro just as well as a warrior ever would. Wizzy in mt grp? dont hear of it much.. plus wizzy raid wise wont do as much dps as the best dps raid classes (summoner/swash/even rangers and assasins constantly parse better). My experience of pallys mt raids is that they lose agro where a warrior class wouldnt, It's a great utility/hybrid class dont get me wrong. But when it comes to raid tanking warriors will constantly have the edge. <div></div>

[R2Chie]

<blockquote><hr>Sedila wrote:<div></div>  <div>yes they arent as good as a warrior, but we arent supposed to. our utility is else where. get over it. </div><hr></blockquote> Spot on post, thumbs up.<div></div>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>R2Chief2 wrote:it used to clearly tell you in the old chat boxes when choosing a fighting class what paladins were described as. Sorry but you moan that you have to put pledge on, its a good buff dontget me wrong, but thats 1 persons change, make a pally mt and youllneed both a coercer and dirge just for them to hold agro just as wellas a warrior ever would. Wizzy in mt grp? dont hear of it much.. pluswizzy raid wise wont do as much dps as the best dps raid classes(summoner/swash/even rangers and assasins constantly parse better).My experience of pallys mt raids is that they lose agro where a warriorclass wouldnt, It's a great utility/hybrid class dont get me wrong. Butwhen it comes to raid tanking warriors will constantly have the edge. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't see the MT problems of a paladin in the aggro aspect, it's more a mitigation issue than an aggro issue.I don't mind that guardians are the MT choice for most encounters, but I would really like to see some encounters where another class would be a better tank. (eg mobs with fear could be something where paladins with fear immunity ought to shine imho, but alas, a guardian is still the better tank in those cases for fear lasts too short to be a great factor in determining the tank)

[Caphi2]

<div></div>Paladins need a little something for raid tanking but it isn't much. I think making Divine Aura a full 100% damage blocker for 10 seconds instead of the rubbish that it is would give us the little trick we need.  Aggro? Not a serious problem if you make the group right. Single target encounter? Give me a Brigand. Group encounters? Give me a warlock.  Dirge *and* Coercer? You're doing it wrong......Amends is our biggest strength, play to it.  Have a nuke happy wizard in your guild that's always dying? Throw 'em in the MT group with you and tell 'em to go nuts.  Other than our propensity to sometimes get splattered on engage before debuffs are in, we're fine.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Caphi2 on <span class=date_text>07-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:32 PM</span>

[Kenji11]

<DIV>Far as the paladin raid tanking boost, I have been fiddling around with an idea. In the EoF expansion, we ae getting subclass specific AAs. Probably another 5 lines in the same setup as the class AAs. Now I think it'd be nice to get an AA line that gives an additional max hp % boost, like another 4% at rank 8, some defense or parry, and attack, and for the final ability, costing 8 points, remove the mit debuff on the pledge of armament line, and allow it to be cast upon the caster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if we decide to spend about half our new AAs, we can get a little closer to warriors in the hp department, and can finally use the pledge line to our benefit. In doing that, 1) it will almost close the constant mitigation gap between warriors and crusaders, warriors will still have thier temp buffs though, so they are still ahead. and 2) It will help to remove the ideaology that we are MEANT to be assist tanks. If we can put that mit buff on ourselves, then we CAN be assist tanks, and we CAN be main tanks, almost equal to the warriors, possibly a bit more cause we can use a 114 vs all mit/resists symbol in our ranged slot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another nice final AA, that would again require 8 points to attain would be a temporary ward that absorbs 10% of all incoming damage, be it melee or resist based, for 30 seconds, with a 30 second recast which initiates after the spell expires. This ward would be the first thing taken into account when mitigating damage. So lets say a lvl 70 mob hits you for 10,000 divine damage, wit this ward up, first you check the ward, damage down to 9,000 ,then the divine resists, say 80%, damage down to 1,800. So in the case of a 10k hit, with already max mit or resists, thats only 200 less damage, its not groundbreaking, but when you get a 30,000 hit from say, Tarinax, and you have 75% mit to him, thats 30,000 x .9 = 27,000 x .25 = 6750, versus 7500 without the ward. So its not overpowered, prolly a 2 second casting timer, consumes a devout essence (gotta find some use for them), and helps reduces all damage a little.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warriors will still have the edge, but now it wont be as sharp.</DIV>

[Anariale]

If you arent talking about raid scenarios... and you havent at least killed Vyemm, then you dont have the experience to really participate in this discussion.Yes, Paladins are fine in 6-man groups... but the only zone which is even remotely difficult for 6-man is Nizara, which we are steamrolling through already.  However, when it comes to raids, Paladins are sorely lacking because of the MASSIVE difference in incoming damage.Think of it this way:Stone Sphere - 20% chance to stoneskin, each hit absorbed is ~= 5000 HP heal.  Thats FAR better than anything a Paladin getsTower of Stone - 3 Hits absorbed ~= 15000 HP Heal.  Thats FAR better than anything a Paladin getsNot to mention Paladins take a solid 10-20% more damage than a Guardian while tanking.  Sure we can heal, but with a Guardian, its not even necessary.The bottom line is that Paladins are sub-par in raids.  The *only* ability they get thats worth while is our mitigation transfer, but thats hardly even "necessary".  The class simply isnt necessary on raids, in any shape form or fashion.  SOE has failed miserably at balancing the tanks.Wyrd70 Paladin (1st on Permafrost)Completed Claymore (2nd Guild to Kill Tarinax on Permafrost, and we did it with 6 healers and no Brigand)Ex-TL for DAOC, and I wrote all the papers on how combat works there<div></div>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:If you arent talking about raid scenarios... and you havent at least killed Vyemm, then you dont have the experience to really participate in this discussion.Yes, Paladins are fine in 6-man groups... but the only zone which is even remotely difficult for 6-man is Nizara, which we are steamrolling through already.  However, when it comes to raids, Paladins are sorely lacking because of the MASSIVE difference in incoming damage.Think of it this way:Stone Sphere - 20% chance to stoneskin, each hit absorbed is ~= 5000 HP heal.  Thats FAR better than anything a Paladin getsTower of Stone - 3 Hits absorbed ~= 15000 HP Heal.  Thats FAR better than anything a Paladin getsNot to mention Paladins take a solid 10-20% more damage than a Guardian while tanking.  Sure we can heal, but with a Guardian, its not even necessary.The bottom line is that Paladins are sub-par in raids.  The *only* ability they get thats worth while is our mitigation transfer, but thats hardly even "necessary".  The class simply isnt necessary on raids, in any shape form or fashion.  SOE has failed miserably at balancing the tanks.Wyrd70 Paladin (1st on Permafrost)Completed Claymore (2nd Guild to Kill Tarinax on Permafrost, and we did it with 6 healers and no Brigand)Ex-TL for DAOC, and I wrote all the papers on how combat works there<div></div><hr></blockquote>This sounds a little elitist to me. I have played my paladin since November 2004 and been MT on several raids and tried to be MT on some T7 raids. I noticed a big difference, but I haven't killed Vyemm yet. What mobs you have killed says something about the guild you are in, not the player.

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dwergux wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Anariale wrote:<BR></P> <P>Wyrd<BR>70 Paladin (1st on Permafrost)<BR>Completed Claymore (2nd Guild to Kill Tarinax on Permafrost, and we did it with 6 healers and no Brigand)<BR>Ex-TL for DAOC, and I wrote all the papers on how combat works there<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>This sounds a little elitist to me. I have played my paladin since November 2004 and been MT on several raids and tried to be MT on some T7 raids. I noticed a big difference, but I haven't killed Vyemm yet. What mobs you have killed says something about the guild you are in, not the player.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You just have to look at the sig to see that Anariale is an elitist. Or just look at some of the posts. One of the most stuck up and conceited people posting in the pally forum. If you don't raid in the top guild on your server, you aren't worth his/her time.

[Anariale]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>If being an elitist means not being the dumbest mofo in the room... then Im an elitist.Besides, isnt it just as self-centered to think that only your non-raiding perspective matters?  Hell, I agree with 90% of what is said here, and you guys apparently agree with me... except when the "cool kids" on the boards start getting miffed because someone disagreed with them.  Yes, Paladins rock in 6-man groups, but how on earth can you realistically expect anyone to take your raiding perspective when you havent seen the majority of it?  Then again, it doesnt matter as internet forums are just a lesson in socialism, the first to stand out are the first to be denounced.  I make crystal clear arguments of the flaws of the class, and what happens... some momo who is in legendary gear farming HoF says "we're fine".  PleaseBy having raided pretty much all of the content in the game, Im pretty sure I have a better perspective on how the class works.   No, it doesnt mean Im a better player, but it does mean that I have seen and been in more situations than a player who has not.  Furthermore, Im the raid leader for my guild, which is actually rather successful and well respected on Permafrost.  Maybe Im a complete [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], but it gets crap done.  If you dont like it, *shrug*, post your opinion.  I really dont care.  Just when I dismiss it outright because you can tank Lab trash, but cant tank Vyemm, the Elemental Warder or have problems with the Overlord or goo-split mob in DT, dont get all huffy.W<p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>07-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:03 PM</span>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<DIV>So does that mean that Me, Itoock and Phov are the only ones that get to be snarky at you? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR> If being an elitist means not being the dumbest mofo in the room... then Im an elitist.<BR><BR>Besides, isnt it just as self-centered to think that only your non-raiding perspective matters?  Hell, I agree with 90% of what is said here, and you guys apparently agree with me... except when the "cool kids" on the boards start getting miffed because someone disagreed with them.  Yes, Paladins rock in 6-man groups, but how on earth can you realistically expect anyone to take your raiding perspective when you havent seen the majority of it?  Then again, it doesnt matter as internet forums are just a lesson in socialism, the first to stand out are the first to be denounced.  I make crystal clear arguments of the flaws of the class, and what happens... some momo who is in legendary gear farming HoF says "we're fine".  Please<BR><BR>By having raided pretty much all of the content in the game, Im pretty sure I have a better perspective on how the class works.   No, it doesnt mean Im a better player, but it does mean that I have seen and been in more situations than a player who has not.  <BR><BR>Furthermore, Im the raid leader for my guild, which is actually rather successful and well respected on Permafrost.  Maybe Im a complete [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], but it gets crap done.  If you dont like it, *shrug*, post your opinion.  I really dont care.  Just when I dismiss it outright because you can tank Lab trash, but cant tank Vyemm, the Elemental Warder or have problems with the Overlord or goo-split mob in DT, dont get all huffy.<BR><BR>W <P>Message Edited by Anariale on <SPAN class=date_text>07-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:03 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, when did I say my opinion ever counted for more than yours? Never. But you love to throw it in my face that your opinion counts for more because you're some cool raider dude. I don't care. I raid and I'm content with my role whatever it may be. I have saved raids by being the only healer standing that kept that MT up long enough to get more healers in. I've saved a raid by grabbing mobs when the MT went down, and being able to stand long enough to get the mobs dead. I've saved raids by throwing in that last nuke, that last sword swing that killed the mob before the healer...</P> <P>Just because its not Vyemm or Tarinax doesn't make me less of a raider than you.</P>

[Anariale]

And I never said you were less of a raider than me.You've stated clearly that you're perfectly happy playing the OT role on raids.  Im not.  I didnt roll my toon to play an OT.  I step up whenever I can to see how things fall out, and I can tell you from my experiences, that the Paladin class is a subpar MT.  You even agreed with me on this in one thread.  However, now all of a sudden Im an elitist [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] who obviously cant be right because I dismiss opinions of people who have literally no experience MTing the hardest mobs in the game.Anyways, more power to you.  Im not here to tell you how to play your toon, nor am I here to convince other players that there are problems with the Paladin class.  I post here on the very off hope that a Dev will read my posts and say "Ya know, maybe he might be on to something", and then take it in their own hands to look into the situation.Best of luck,W<div></div>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR>And I never said you were less of a raider than me.<BR><BR>You've stated clearly that you're perfectly happy playing the OT role on raids.  Im not.  I didnt roll my toon to play an OT.  I step up whenever I can to see how things fall out, and I can tell you from my experiences, that the Paladin class is a subpar MT.  You even agreed with me on this in one thread.  <STRONG>However, now all of a sudden Im an elitist [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] who obviously cant be right because I dismiss opinions of people who have literally no experience MTing the hardest mobs in the game.<BR></STRONG><BR>Anyways, more power to you.  Im not here to tell you how to play your toon, nor am I here to convince other players that there are problems with the Paladin class.  I post here on the very off hope that a Dev will read my posts and say "Ya know, maybe he might be on to something", and then take it in their own hands to look into the situation.<BR><BR>Best of luck,<BR>W<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Quote me where I said you can't be right. I merely said that you are the most elitist person on the pally board.<BR>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>Hiya all, i think the general consensus is that there are some things that should be tweaked to make a paladin a better/effective tank be it in the group/solo or raid situtions.  Anybody that has read my posts know that i love to play my pally and try to give positive feedback when i can and not get in [Removed for Content] matches.  The majority on these threads do and the minority that get into arguements still usually love their pallies, they just let their emotions get to them.  SOE had a chance to bridge the raid defiencies of a CRUSADER by keeping the BETA version of DIVINE AURA, they decided however to add a bunch of restrictions that they are still patching to fix.  I am willing to bet if they reworded the ward to say that it protects against all incoming damage that is over 25% of the casters max health for 10 seconds, requires a essence, and has a 3-5 minute reuse timer, we would make many pallies that like to MT on raids happier.   The current system of only protecting against less than 50% of max health, up to 30 hits, taking DOTS as hits counted and 15 minute timer makes this spell gimped to be used regulary on a raiding basis.  They could tweak this spell at no loss of "balance" and be able to help both pallies and shadowknights out.  I also agree that our ward and sacrament heal should have a second shaved off to help when we are tanking, just like i think our castigate spell needs to be a 1 second cast timer if you want it to actually remove dots before the 10,000 auto interupts hit you at the last .25 second of the current casting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation wise, thay couls toss a easy fix by having a tier 7 symbol that gave decent stats and all resists in the mid hundred or so range.  currently a cobalt censer(tier 6 rare) is the highest mitigation symcol at 114 to all resists and a almighty 20 wisdom tossed in.  In tier 7 what do we have for mitigation?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are definetly not a broken class by any stretch of the definition, but a few of the aforementioned ideas would help us out in all sitions.  I have semi retired the whole percentage self regenerating ward for epics only idea and have tried to get our divine aura to changed instead, the mechanics are there and are easier to implement then trieing to toss a new line of spells in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While we are on the idea of fixing things, either fix my rez to have a revive effect for out of combat non grouped players at a 15% health heal or give us a high level revive spell in the 60's or something.  I don't any healer i have talke to would have any problems with that if ours was aquired much later in the game and i know quite a few pallies would like that to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also Fix our Sigil of Heriosm so that it is finally Scout compatable and not messed up when scouts are in the group with their hate transfers.  It is to the point that that spell is in my sub basement C hotbar, because i like to group with scouts alot.  While you are at, fix our divine favor to actually keep us from double damaging our gear.  The way mobs/encounters work(especially our social agro epics now) that spell is practically worthless(if it was even worth anything before).  Either give us a full health/power bar with a stifle or remove the stifle and give us a 40 % heal/power with our single ward insta cast on us.  Right now the whole threat position delevel component is about as useful as my dwarf trait to summon ale...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the above i just grin and bear it, try to send out informative forum postings on various forums and go on. I still enjoy my pallie, i just think it can recieve a boost in certain things.  I think the palladin community could be more effective we stood together with the shadowknights and asked for a divine aura AA that truely was raid useful...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Caphi2]

Steel nailed it. Dead on.<div></div>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caphi2 wrote:<BR>Steel nailed it. Dead on.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He usually does. That's why he's so dreamy.

[Artorius_]

<P> Hi, im agree 100% with <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=81801" target=_blank><SPAN>Anariale</SPAN></A> , im RL of a guild that dont raid high end of t7, but do regular Labs all weeks and lyceum , and some contesteds when we take as monoliths. I have to say i have tested a lot of tactics to defeat each mob, have tested guardian, zerker, paladin, sk as MT to see when i could use one or another. The best thing i think have done SOE to crusaders is to put ward cross-raid, at least we can ward and do something usefull....</P> <P> Paladins says can tank in raid scenarios and i says is true, if you are a lot more geared than a guardian or Zerker you can do it similar. But equal geared is a nosense to put a crusader as MT.</P> <P> a Raid Tank == Mitigation, is the only formula that is valid and a warrior have an edge on it, we are behind by far in this stat, not only by AAs, they temporary buffs are enormous and whatever that says a paladin can do this or that, dont know a guardian, dont have 1 in his guild or someting. a guardian with similiar gear than a paladin or a bit worse, tanks better than us in whatever Raid.</P> <P> In group scenario, a brigand can tank ..... dont mind the tank you put.</P> <P> In raid scenarios i dont see a paladin or sk. peharps paladin to help rezz, ward.. but well never tank if a guardian is up in the raid. and our buff to pass AC is another nosense, an RL well put a coercer and dirge with MT for agro before than us, i prefer to lsoe those 425 AC from my master. I only stay in MT group if no coercer up that day.</P> <P> SOE, tanks are terribly unbalanced, in groups are ok, raids no sense to put another fighter than a guardian in the raid, for wards and heals ... healer and dps a dps. for tanking? i have said no? ;P</P>

[Caetrel]

Making Pledge a self or group friend buff would be the best magic bullet for fixing the situation.   No doubt Sigil and DA suck, but 425 mit would go a long way to making us an inferior but not completely gimpy tank.  It is the ONLY perma mit buff in the game that does not affect the caster.   I think it was made so as a flavor/ rp thing more than anything.  The sad thing is few people bother to use a crusader as an MT buffer beyond the first few weeks of a tier...once you are geared up there are too many other more useful classes to fill that spot, and with warriors having an abundance of mit Pledge becomes unecessary.   I can't even remember the last time I used it.  I don't think dude is being snotty or condescending at all, pallies shine in groups and our deficiences become more apparent in raids.   The more raiding you do, the more you will see it.  As for the symbol slot, how about some fabled or legendary drops?  If my stupid belt has 140 mit on it how about a symbol?  <div></div>

[redi]

I don't know where the problem is....i've tanked a lot of t7 stuff and i'm the offtank of our raid(sometimes mt, cause of better resists).Pledge of armament line is a slap into the face for all pallys, cause soe's saying:go hug trees.I mean we're the only tank class that has to max out all 5 stats, but if this is done well, we're able to take all that stuff, a guardian can tank. he may have his mitigation, but we'll resist a lot more spells cause of our high wisdom. and therefore i have 4 stats in raid capped(all except int) and can get some mit with the right gear as for example the 114 mit symbol. and who cares bout the tower of stone....2 mins recast(if i am right) and each fight except the high high end t7 stuff shows, that the raid is lacking dps. with the right set up i can get up to the guardians hp and with potions i can easily cap my mit. so where the hell is the problem? only thing paladin is lacking of, is parrying. sorry if i sound confused, but just woke up<div></div>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>If being an elitist means not being the dumbest mofo in the room... then Im an elitist.Besides, isnt it just as self-centered to think that only your non-raiding perspective matters?  Hell, I agree with 90% of what is said here, and you guys apparently agree with me... except when the "cool kids" on the boards start getting miffed because someone disagreed with them.  Yes, Paladins rock in 6-man groups, but how on earth can you realistically expect anyone to take your raiding perspective when you havent seen the majority of it?  Then again, it doesnt matter as internet forums are just a lesson in socialism, the first to stand out are the first to be denounced.  I make crystal clear arguments of the flaws of the class, and what happens... some momo who is in legendary gear farming HoF says "we're fine".  PleaseBy having raided pretty much all of the content in the game, Im pretty sure I have a better perspective on how the class works.   No, it doesnt mean Im a better player, but it does mean that I have seen and been in more situations than a player who has not.  Furthermore, Im the raid leader for my guild, which is actually rather successful and well respected on Permafrost.  Maybe Im a complete [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], but it gets crap done.  If you dont like it, *shrug*, post your opinion.  I really dont care.  Just when I dismiss it outright because you can tank Lab trash, but cant tank Vyemm, the Elemental Warder or have problems with the Overlord or goo-split mob in DT, dont get all huffy.W<p>Message Edited by Anariale on <span class=date_text>07-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:03 PM</span><hr></blockquote>I didn't say I didn't agree with you, I just said that you shouldn't have to raid the top end to notice what is wrong with a paladin as MT.With better gear I could MT the raids we do, but can't MT the raids you do. It's all scaling (well as far as EQ2 can scale, but that is another topic). I was ticked o by your comment that you can't know what you are talking about unles you have raided high end content. The content you do is as hard for you as the content I do is for me. (or I think it is, but that is my perception)<p>Message Edited by Dwergux on <span class=date_text>07-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:34 AM</span>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<P>I ultimately see this as being an argument over where the balance of a class lies. SOE and myself seem to see it as an aspect of ability. This ability might be tanking raid content. It might be versitility/utility. It might be raw DPS (If we want to throw Monks/Bruisers into the argument) Each of the subset of fighter classes seems to be incredibly well balanced under those main ability spreads. </P> <P>For a hardcore, 7days a week raider however, it seems that their common perceptions ignore this type of balance. It concerns itself with the simple fact of 'I fight raid mobs almost exclusively. Thusly, if I can't tank raid mobs as well as Class B or Class C, something -must- be unbalanced.' </P> <P>I see this as a falsehood. SOE balance has always focused upon class abilities, not their capability in fighting a specific subset of mobs. (Epics)</P> <P>And yes, I am one of those raiders. Wiped out Vyemm, killed T7 contested, split the goo, etc etc. It doesn't make my opinion anymore valuble then a 70 Paladin that only raids twice a week though. In fact, if you need to preface any argument about class balance with 'This only applies to raiders' I would argue you just killed your point right there.</P>

[Rocksthemic]

<blockquote><hr>Pathin Merrithay wrote:<div></div> <p>I ultimately see this as being an argument over where the balance of a class lies. SOE and myself seem to see it as an aspect of ability. This ability might be tanking raid content. It might be versitility/utility. It might be raw DPS (If we want to throw Monks/Bruisers into the argument) Each of the subset of fighter classes seems to be incredibly well balanced under those main ability spreads. </p> <p>For a hardcore, 7days a week raider however, it seems that their common perceptions ignore this type of balance. It concerns itself with the simple fact of 'I fight raid mobs almost exclusively. Thusly, if I can't tank raid mobs as well as Class B or Class C, something -must- be unbalanced.' </p> <p>I see this as a falsehood. SOE balance has always focused upon class abilities, not their capability in fighting a specific subset of mobs. (Epics)</p> <p>And yes, I am one of those raiders. Wiped out Vyemm, killed T7 contested, split the goo, etc etc. It doesn't make my opinion anymore valuble then a 70 Paladin that only raids twice a week though. In fact, if you need to preface any argument about class balance with 'This only applies to raiders' I would argue you just killed your point right there.</p><hr></blockquote>Well put Saffira. That is why you're so dreamy <span>:smileytongue:</span> Thundaarr Unrest <Nightcap> <div></div>

[Leawyn]

See? Saffy and Steel can put into words exactly what I think, without making someone feel like less of a Paladin because they are raiding AoA instead of DT. I love you guys <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Anariale]

Paladins are fine in 6-man groups.Paladins are sorely lacking as raid tanks.< Insert flame war here  >W<div></div>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR>Paladins are fine in 6-man groups.<BR>Paladins are sorely lacking as raid tanks.<BR><BR>< Insert flame war here  ><BR><BR>W<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree.

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>Anariale wrote:Paladins are fine in 6-man groups.Paladins are sorely lacking as raid tanks.< Insert flame war here  >W<div></div><hr></blockquote>Nice summary of this thread. Yup, I aggree.

[Kale]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pathin Merrithay wrote:<div></div><p>I see this as a falsehood. SOE balance has always focused upon class abilities, not their capability in fighting a specific subset of mobs. (Epics)</p> <hr></blockquote>Saying that, you are disregarding the player's perspective then. You're disregarding their reasoning for playing a Paladin in the first place. And I'm not sure that's right. A lot of Paladins started out as Paladins because they wanted to MT raid content, and they thought the Paladin would be the most fun way to do it. 50+ levels later they find out that's not the case. Should we be punished because SOE said "all tanks will be able to tank"? Yeah, I know, it was before the game launched, blah blah blah... I've come to accept my role on raids. I've come to accept that I'll only be MT on a raid when the stuff is blue/green con and all the Guardians/Zerkers are on vacation. That doesn't make it right. Doesn't mean I have to stop lobbying for changes to help our class in that "one specific scenario". Moorgard made a post a long time ago about how it should be the person behind the toon that makes the difference. And to that, I agree. Some people have the mindset for tanking. Many of us, as Paladins, have that mindset. We hone our skills and develop our spatial awareness and work on our gear and analyze our stats and figure out strategy... When we're in a group we put all of that into action and we tank - and we do a great job. And we tank, and we tank, and we tank. And then we get to a raid and we're asked to sit on the sidelines so someone else can do our job. That's tough. That's a <i>mental shift</i> that is hard to take every time. If I wanted to sit on the sidelines I'd have chosen a DPS class or healer. I chose a Paladin because I wanted to tank. And that meant <i>all the time</i>. You can blame me for thinking that choosing a plate wearing tank meant I'd be able to tank all the time, and I understand that perspective. But I don't agree with it. I think if you wear plate you should have the tools. It shouldn't be, "Oh, you can tank - except raid epics. Then sit down."Is there another class in the game, besides the fighter branch, where we're asked to make such a dramatic shift in mindset when it comes to raids? To stop doing what we're supposed to do? </div>

[robusticus]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR>Paladins are fine in 6-man groups.<BR>Paladins are sorely lacking as raid tanks.<BR><BR><Insert flame war here  ><BR><BR>W<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Are you guys saying you tank in a 6 man setting over a warrior?  Because I don't.  They get huffy when I do.</DIV>

[Anariale]

Nice post, Kalera.<u><i>Is there another class in the game, besides the fighter branch, where we're asked to make such a dramatic shift in mindset when it comes to raids? To stop doing what we're supposed to do?</i></u>It was Enchanters... until they complained enough that SOE finally said "Ya know, maybe a little CC in Epic fights aint that bad of an idea"<div></div>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> robusticus wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR>Paladins are fine in 6-man groups.<BR>Paladins are sorely lacking as raid tanks.<BR><BR><Insert flame war here  ><BR><BR>W<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Are you guys saying you tank in a 6 man setting over a warrior?  Because I don't.  They get huffy when I do.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Maybe that has to do more with your abilities/attitude than your class. I never have a problem tanking, and in fact rotate tanking in groups when I group with my Zerker and SK friends. And never had anyone complain. In fact, we started out Nizara with the zerker tanking in a group, and switched to me when we saw it was just plain easier when I tanked.

[Anariale]

I just dont even bother with Warriors in 6-man groups.  Taking 2 fighters is just reducing your DPS.<div></div>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR>Paladins are fine in 6-man groups.<BR>Paladins are sorely lacking as raid tanks.<BR><BR>< Insert flame war here  ><BR><BR>W<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yay! A concise summary!</P> <P>Seriously, I feel for both sides of the arguements above. I *prefer* to duo or single group content. in that role, I absolutely love my paladin and all he is capable of. In fact, most people that group with me in those situations are flat amazed at the crap we can pull off. However, I happen to be in a raiding guild, and we raid 6 nights a week. We've cleared Lyceum, Labs, most of HoS, and most of Deathtoll (Got Tarinax, just not that snake thingy yet). So, I have heavy exposure to this playstyle as well. Can we tank some of these things? Sure. Can we do it as effectively as a Guardian or Berserker? No.</P> <P>Honestly, I don't know if it's SOE's intent for us ever to be as good as the warrior classes at that stuff. I wouldn't mind the gap being lessened a bit, however. :smileywink:</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kalera wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*SNIP*</DIV> <DIV><BR>Moorgard made a post a long time ago about how it should be the person behind the toon that makes the difference. And to that, I agree. Some people have the mindset for tanking. Many of us, as Paladins, have that mindset. We hone our skills and develop our spatial awareness and work on our gear and analyze our stats and figure out strategy... When we're in a group we put all of that into action and we tank - and we do a great job. And we tank, and we tank, and we tank. And then we get to a raid and we're asked to sit on the sidelines so someone else can do our job. <BR><BR>That's tough. That's a <I>mental shift</I> that is hard to take every time. If I wanted to sit on the sidelines I'd have chosen a DPS class or healer. I chose a Paladin because I wanted to tank. And that meant <I>all the time</I>. <BR><BR>You can blame me for thinking that choosing a plate wearing tank meant I'd be able to tank all the time, and I understand that perspective. But I don't agree with it. I think if you wear plate you should have the tools. It shouldn't be, "Oh, you can tank - except raid epics. Then sit down."<BR><BR>Is there another class in the game, besides the fighter branch, where we're asked to make such a dramatic shift in mindset when it comes to raids? To stop doing what we're supposed to do? <BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I understand where you're coming from with the mental shift, but raids just aren't built or designed in a way that facilitates multiple tanks going at any one given time - sometimes two, maybe. And if you just want to be able to rotate in to tank... that may be possible, but it's at the expense of time. Time to place you into the MT group, time to rebuff, time for whomever was the last tank to get into their group and buff. Hotkeys may need to be changed if they have macros for assisting a particular tank, or whatever... It's just not often considered feasible, given the duration that many raids already last.</P> <P>Given your argument that if you wear plate, you should have the tools to tank, but yet you think you should tank every time you go to a raid...you're saying there can be only one plate wearer or fighter in the raid. Otherwise that other plate wearer would be sitting there thinking the exact same thing you currently are, but about you.</P> <P>I feel your pain. I really understand the mental shift you speak of. But until raids are designed with the requirement of multiple tanks to overcome them, I think that any fighter class will feel this way if they are not sitting in that one MT position.</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<BR></P>

[robusticus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR>Paladins are fine in 6-man groups.<BR>Paladins are sorely lacking as raid tanks.<BR><BR><Insert flame war here  ><BR><BR>W<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yay! A concise summary!</P> <P>Seriously, I feel for both sides of the arguements above. I *prefer* to duo or single group content. in that role, I absolutely love my paladin and all he is capable of. In fact, most people that group with me in those situations are flat amazed at the crap we can pull off. However, I happen to be in a raiding guild, and we raid 6 nights a week. We've cleared Lyceum, Labs, most of HoS, and most of Deathtoll (Got Tarinax, just not that snake thingy yet). So, I have heavy exposure to this playstyle as well. Can we tank some of these things? Sure. Can we do it as effectively as a Guardian or Berserker? No.</P> <P>Honestly, I don't know if it's SOE's intent for us ever to be as good as the warrior classes at that stuff. I wouldn't mind the gap being lessened a bit, however. :smileywink:</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It really truly is a bad argument and probably why it will always be perceived as a flat-out whine and nothing will ever be done about it.</P> <P>People get some fabled gear and they think their class is just fine in a 6 man setting.  Throw on that cobalt and go tank HOF next to a guard and see how it feels.  Pretty much just like Labs w/ T7 legendary.</P>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> robusticus wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Are you guys saying you tank in a 6 man setting over a warrior?  Because I don't.  They get huffy when I do.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Generally speaking, yes. I tank in almost every single group I am ever in. The exceptions are only on 2 occasions - 1) I am having to afk a lot to deal with RL stuff at home; 2) I am feeling slug-like and too mentally drained to want to put that much effort into it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<BR></P>

[Kale]

<div><blockquote><hr>Wulfborne wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Kalera wrote: <div> </div> <div>*SNIP*</div> <div>Moorgard made a post a long time ago about how it should be the person behind the toon that makes the difference. And to that, I agree. Some people have the mindset for tanking. Many of us, as Paladins, have that mindset. We hone our skills and develop our spatial awareness and work on our gear and analyze our stats and figure out strategy... When we're in a group we put all of that into action and we tank - and we do a great job. And we tank, and we tank, and we tank. And then we get to a raid and we're asked to sit on the sidelines so someone else can do our job. That's tough. That's a <i>mental shift</i> that is hard to take every time. If I wanted to sit on the sidelines I'd have chosen a DPS class or healer. I chose a Paladin because I wanted to tank. And that meant <i>all the time</i>. You can blame me for thinking that choosing a plate wearing tank meant I'd be able to tank all the time, and I understand that perspective. But I don't agree with it. I think if you wear plate you should have the tools. It shouldn't be, "Oh, you can tank - except raid epics. Then sit down."Is there another class in the game, besides the fighter branch, where we're asked to make such a dramatic shift in mindset when it comes to raids? To stop doing what we're supposed to do? </div> <div> <hr> </div></blockquote> <p>I understand where you're coming from with the mental shift, but raids just aren't built or designed in a way that facilitates multiple tanks going at any one given time - sometimes two, maybe. And if you just want to be able to rotate in to tank... that may be possible, but it's at the expense of time. Time to place you into the MT group, time to rebuff, time for whomever was the last tank to get into their group and buff. Hotkeys may need to be changed if they have macros for assisting a particular tank, or whatever... It's just not often considered feasible, given the duration that many raids already last.</p> <p>Given your argument that if you wear plate, you should have the tools to tank, but yet you think you should tank every time you go to a raid...you're saying there can be only one plate wearer or fighter in the raid. Otherwise that other plate wearer would be sitting there thinking the exact same thing you currently are, but about you.</p> <p>I feel your pain. I really understand the mental shift you speak of. But until raids are designed with the requirement of multiple tanks to overcome them, I think that any fighter class will feel this way if they are not sitting in that one MT position.</p> <p>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</p><hr></blockquote>You missed part of my point <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Not all people are cut out to MT raid content even though they play a tank. Not all players spend as much time working on gear/stats/strategy as others. Some of us focus on those things a lot more than others, and because of that we're ideally suited to be the MT on a raid. That doesn't mean you don't take the other tanks along. In my opinion, every tank brings something to a raid that is useful, be it DPS, buffs, rez abilities, etc. I don't exclude folks on the raids I run just because of class. If you can do something to help win, you're in, IMO. (but that's a debate for another thread).What I'm saying, more or less, is that not every person ideally suited to be the MT on a raid is currently playing a Guardian or Zerker. Some of us are playing Paladins. Some of us are playing Shadow Knights. According to some people, we're simply playing the wrong class. But according to my way of thinking, our class is simply deficient. If all the plate tanks could tank raid epics equally well when equally equipped, then the role of MT wouldn't go to a <i>class</i>, but it would go to the <i>person </i>who is most ideally suited for the task. Namely, the guy or gal who has spent their time learning all the mobs, attacks, strategies, obtaining the right gear and perfecting their play ability. That would be a shift in the way the raid MT is chosen, and I think it would be a good one. It would come down to player skills then - who gets the MT job - instead of the specific class someone chose. Wouldn't that be better? Don't ya think? Or am I nuts?</div>

[robusticus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> robusticus wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Are you guys saying you tank in a 6 man setting over a warrior?  Because I don't.  They get huffy when I do.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Generally speaking, yes. I tank in almost every single group I am ever in. The exceptions are only on 2 occasions - 1) I am having to afk a lot to deal with RL stuff at home; 2) I am feeling slug-like and too mentally drained to want to put that much effort into it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Oh cmon Hawke, don't play with us like that... "mentally drained" = drunk I know what you're saying.</P> <P>But yeah, at some point when you have good gear the entire group game (including Nizara) is trivial, no matter what class you are.</P>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kalera wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>You missed part of my point <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Not all people are cut out to MT raid content even though they play a tank. Not all players spend as much time working on gear/stats/strategy as others. Some of us focus on those things a lot more than others, and because of that we're ideally suited to be the MT on a raid. That doesn't mean you don't take the other tanks along. In my opinion, every tank brings something to a raid that is useful, be it DPS, buffs, rez abilities, etc. I don't exclude folks on the raids I run just because of class. If you can do something to help win, you're in, IMO. (but that's a debate for another thread).<BR><BR>What I'm saying, more or less, is that not every person ideally suited to be the MT on a raid is currently playing a Guardian or Zerker. Some of us are playing Paladins. Some of us are playing Shadow Knights. According to some people, we're simply playing the wrong class. But according to my way of thinking, our class is simply deficient. <BR><BR>If all the plate tanks could tank raid epics equally well when equally equipped, then the role of MT wouldn't go to a <I>class</I>, but it would go to the <I>person </I>who is most ideally suited for the task. Namely, the guy or gal who has spent their time learning all the mobs, attacks, strategies, obtaining the right gear and perfecting their play ability. <BR><BR>That would be a shift in the way the raid MT is chosen, and I think it would be a good one. It would come down to player skills then - who gets the MT job - instead of the specific class someone chose. <BR><BR>Wouldn't that be better? Don't ya think? Or am I nuts?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Certainly that would be better. But, I worry for your guild if they choose a Guard or Zerker to be a tank *only* because they are a Guard or Zerker. Most guilds choose a warrior MT that also has that good MT mindset you speak of. Currently, it's just a case of choosing the 'best of both worlds' in their eyes, I'd assume.</P> <P>Like I said before, I definitely wouldn't fuss over having some tweeks done to the class to allow us to be a more efficient raid tank... something to help close the gap between us and our warrior bretheren in the mitigation department, most glaringly. If people are choosing to pick a Guard/Zerker as MT based solely upon the class they play, and not the MT skills or mindset, then yeah - I'd say that's simply more playerbase passively agreeing that we could use a boost in that department.</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> robusticus wrote: <P>Oh cmon Hawke, don't play with us like that... "mentally drained" = drunk I know what you're saying.</P> <P>But yeah, at some point when you have good gear the entire group game (including Nizara) is trivial, no matter what class you are.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL! Um...sometimes this is the case, but most of the time that I start drinking I want to tank even more... Those that know me call this "Hawke making his own epic encounters". I work some long hours IRL and sometimes just would rather take a break and follow the crowd rather than lead from the front. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul</P>

[MeridianR]

I tank grey mobs....that is what I do, and damnit I am good at it<div></div>

[robusticus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>I tank grey mobs....that is what I do, and damnit I am good at it<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I tried to get them to let me tank Vox but they wouldn't let me.  The [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'s AE was too powerful.</P> <P>Nice sig, Phov...</P>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote:I tank grey mobs....that is what I do, and damnit I am good at it <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I tried to get them to let me tank Vox but they wouldn't let me.  The [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'s AE was too powerful.</p> <p>Nice sig, Phov...</p><hr></blockquote>I should amend that to say, I tank grey heroic mobs.... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Thanks for the sig compliment...buddy of mine threw it together last night in like 5 mins....</div>

[robusticus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> robusticus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>I tank grey mobs....that is what I do, and damnit I am good at it<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I tried to get them to let me tank Vox but they wouldn't let me.  The [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'s AE was too powerful.</P> <P>Nice sig, Phov...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I should amend that to say, I tank grey heroic mobs.... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>Thanks for the sig compliment...buddy of mine threw it together last night in like 5 mins....<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Don't sell yourself short.  When all else fails, we can still provide value to people by selling tours of DFC for 25 g.  Step right up one and all and get your HQ updates, in a duo, in less than 30 minutes, guaranteed.

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> robusticus wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote:I tank grey mobs....that is what I do, and damnit I am good at it <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I tried to get them to let me tank Vox but they wouldn't let me.  The [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]'s AE was too powerful.</p> <p>Nice sig, Phov...</p> <hr> </blockquote>I should amend that to say, I tank grey heroic mobs.... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Thanks for the sig compliment...buddy of mine threw it together last night in like 5 mins....</div> <hr> </blockquote>Don't sell yourself short.  When all else fails, we can still provide value to people by selling tours of DFC for 25 g.  Step right up one and all and get your HQ updates, in a duo, in less than 30 minutes, guaranteed.<hr></blockquote>I make money by harvesting ? in Antonica.  I figure nothing can kill me there!!</div>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>I make money by harvesting ? in Antonica.  I figure nothing can kill me there!!<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Careful who you give that info out to. Next thing you know, those grey mobs will auto-aggro and swarm you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I echo the nice sig comment. I need to find someone to make me one.</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Hero of Maj'Dul<BR></P>

[Leawyn]

<P>Yeah Phov nice sig.</P> <P>I have a nice lineup of people all of a sudden that want me to make sigs for them lol! Its funny how those things go. I can go months without making one except for myself (cuz as I'm sure you've noticed, I change sigs like I change guilds.... wait, what?) and then suddenly have requests for 5.</P>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anariale wrote:<BR>Paladins are fine in 6-man groups.<BR>Paladins are sorely lacking as raid tanks.<BR><BR><Insert flame war here  ><BR><BR>W<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>this thread made me laugh...  i agree with Anariale about the ppl that haven't seen the whole raid content of t7...  labs trash runs we've been 2 grouping basicly from the start of t7 raiding (we locked ourselves out when there wasn't a lockout)...  anyone can tank that, the monoliths fall in the same category...</P> <P>paly at the high end stuff isn't where they should be (tarinax, turtledragon)...  zerkers and palys positions should be swapped in the tank order...  for labs, lyceum, HoS, AoA dragons (Gore is a complete joke now) any plate tank will work fine if they have good gear...  if they don't have the gear then a warrior is hands down better choice for tanks...  the wards and the insane agro capabilities of a well played paly just don't equal up on the big things...</P> <P>AAs it what really seperated the warriors and crusaders...  the hybrid class of a paly means more AA choices, but SOE messed em up (a line that requires a horse [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]) and didn't give many viable tanking options...  divine aura (think thats the name of the selfrez) is a pita skill (make it work like zerkers VoM)...  with amends and sigel being messed up every 3 days hasn't helped any either...</P> <P>when you're raid leader you do what you think is best even if its not what you want to be doing...  i had to shove our SK down our guilds neck that he was MTing for the night the first few times we had him tank...  we wiped more than we should have but part of it was ppl were waiting for the wipe to come so the weren't really playing well...  now we have no issues with him tanking anything (complete clears of labs, LoA, HoS with him as MT)...  but you get to the orange things and his lack of mita shows (he can second tank tarinax but its harder than if a zerker does)... </P> <P>but he has the gear to tank, once you start approaching the mita cap the 4 plate classes become alot closer in the abilty to take hits...  labs trash is perfect example, you could have 8 million mita or 6k and you're capped against the blue and white mobs...  thats why ppl that haven't tanked the other stuff but that say nothing is broken...</P> <P>i might be an elitest if you wanna call it that, when it comes to raid discussions i look at what the guild as a whole has completed...  i don't know everything about all classes, but those are the ppl i'll ask in tells or PMs if i have questions...</P>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote:<BR> <P>...  thats why ppl that haven't tanked the other stuff but that say nothing is broken...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I don't think any one of the people here say that nothing is broken. We just don't appreciate being talked down to because we aren't part of the top raiding guilds.</P> <P>I have always agreed that Pallies could use some loving in the tanking epic departments. Our heals don't scale to larger encounters like a warriors extra mitigation, since they are static numbers, not % based. But just because I'm content *NOT* tanking in epic battles doesn't make me any less of a Paladin than you are. It also doesn't mean that my opinion doesn't count for as much as yours.</P> <P>We're all equal in Sony's eyes. We all pay the same fee every month to play. So my opinion that I am happy where I'm at, but I agree that other pallies that want to raid tank could use better tools to get there, is just as valid as your opinion that pallies are "broken" because we "can't" tank everything.</P>

[Wabit]

i don't think paly is broken (cept for a couple spells)...  and i'm a guard, but i'm also responcible for how my guilds raids go...  i can't find a good paly MT (the persone behind the toon), i'm on like the 6th one in t7...  thats where my comment stemmed from...  i've disagreed with several of the palys in high end raid guilds on the forums before, but i still have the respect for them and can relate to them better cause we've seen all the same things...