Paladin goes WoW?

[Cyrdemac]

<DIV>I dont know if anybody else realized it yet. Paladins are getting more and more toward pure Supporter than tanking. Last time I supported a level 70 Guardian tanking one of the two 67+++ quest-pirates in Mystic Lake, well, he survived, barely and the pirate fell. Later as I got the quest mself, we tried again, this time I was the tanking one and a level 70 Fury assisted me, we got wiped 3 times, as I got almost the triple amount of damage what the Guardian before got. </DIV> <DIV>So I believe we got nerfed in our tanking ability or, maybe the Guardians just improved. Its almost like WoW where Paladins are nothing more than cure- and heal-bots in plate armor with almost zero tanking ability. Would be nice to hear some replies on that matter <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Vulkan_NTooki]

Umm.. I duod both 67 pirates with a lvl 70 wizard.. was hardly hurt.

[Crib92]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cyrdemac wrote:<BR> <DIV>I dont know if anybody else realized it yet. Paladins are getting more and more toward pure Supporter than tanking. Last time I supported a level 70 Guardian tanking one of the two 67+++ quest-pirates in Mystic Lake, well, he survived, barely and the pirate fell. Later as I got the quest mself, we tried again, this time I was the tanking one and a level 70 Fury assisted me, we got wiped 3 times, as I got almost the triple amount of damage what the Guardian before got. </DIV> <DIV>So I believe we got nerfed in our tanking ability or, maybe the Guardians just improved. Its almost like WoW where Paladins are nothing more than cure- and heal-bots in plate armor with almost zero tanking ability. Would be nice to hear some replies on that matter <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Can you post your stats.  I'm curious to see your HP and Mitigation.  I don't have problems with these mobs at all.</P> <P> </P>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cyrdemac wrote:<BR> <DIV>I dont know if anybody else realized it yet. Paladins are getting more and more toward pure Supporter than tanking. Last time I supported a level 70 Guardian tanking one of the two 67+++ quest-pirates in Mystic Lake, well, he survived, barely and the pirate fell. Later as I got the quest mself, we tried again, this time I was the tanking one and a level 70 Fury assisted me, we got wiped 3 times, as I got almost the triple amount of damage what the Guardian before got. </DIV> <DIV>So I believe we got nerfed in our tanking ability or, maybe the Guardians just improved. Its almost like WoW where Paladins are nothing more than cure- and heal-bots in plate armor with almost zero tanking ability. Would be nice to hear some replies on that matter <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Like the others have said, I bet it had more to do with gear and player skill than the classes alone.

[Landaros]

My Paladin is fairly low (lvl 50) but till now I dont see any problems in tanking higher ^^^ mobs. I am fairly well equipped and I surely dont need to be concerned about comparing my tanking ability with my friends who play zerker, monk, guardian and shadowknight.Maybe your problem is the level of spells you use... dont underestimate the paladong!<div></div>

[Crib92]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Landaros wrote:<BR>My Paladin is fairly low (lvl 50) but till now I dont see any problems in tanking higher ^^^ mobs. I am fairly well equipped and I surely dont need to be concerned about comparing my tanking ability with my friends who play zerker, monk, guardian and shadowknight.<BR><BR>Maybe your problem is the level of spells you use... dont underestimate the <STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>paladong!</FONT></STRONG><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok I was up late last night and I'm a bit sleepy today.  What the heck is a paladong???</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Cyrdemac]

<P>Ok, as wished the Stats of my Paladin:</P> <P>Mitigation 4011</P> <P>Strength: 399</P> <P>Agility: 300</P> <P>Wisdom 290</P> <P>Hitpoints: 6267</P> <P>all gear is legendary or Mastercrafted with 2 Exceptions</P> <P>Shield was the Ghostly Kite Shield from the Claymore Questline</P> <P>Defense Stance on Adept III, as all other Buffs too</P> <P>All damage that came through were 1500-2500 crushing damage from the Mob, no elemental or poison</P> <P> </P> <P>Playing Skill...i doubt I can do something wrong with my Paladin when I am tanking; all I had to do was to stand firm, hold the aggro and ward myself</P>

[Crib92]

<DIV>You mitigation isn't horrible so I don't see a problem there.  Is your gear T6 or T7?  Raw mitigation might not tell the whole story.  The lower lvl your gear the lower the percent mitigated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What AA lines did you go?  Str/Agi?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would recommend using your knockdowns, interrupts, etc.. as much as possible.  Are you getting debuffed during the fight?  With your Wisdom as low as it is  (Assuming defensive stance)  you may be and this could be your problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cyrdemac]

<DIV>All gear is T7 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AA Line is Wisdom actually, 4 / 4 / 5 / 4 / 1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and I am not sure that Wisdom helped at this fight as all damage I got was crushing damage, and no debuffs came through (the Fury made clear of that)</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Cyrdemac on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:49 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Cyrdemac on <span class=date_text>06-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:51 AM</span>

[Knesh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crib92 wrote:<BR> <DIV>You mitigation isn't horrible so I don't see a problem there.  Is your gear T6 or T7?  Raw mitigation might not tell the whole story. <FONT color=#ff0000> The lower lvl your gear the lower the percent mitigated.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What AA lines did you go?  Str/Agi?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would recommend using your knockdowns, interrupts, etc.. as much as possible.  Are you getting debuffed during the fight?  With your Wisdom as low as it is  (Assuming defensive stance)  you may be and this could be your problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That statement is incorrect.. Check Live Update #13 bud....

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Knesh wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crib92 wrote:<BR> <DIV>You mitigation isn't horrible so I don't see a problem there.  Is your gear T6 or T7?  Raw mitigation might not tell the whole story. <FONT color=#ff0000> The lower lvl your gear the lower the percent mitigated.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What AA lines did you go?  Str/Agi?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would recommend using your knockdowns, interrupts, etc.. as much as possible.  Are you getting debuffed during the fight?  With your Wisdom as low as it is  (Assuming defensive stance)  you may be and this could be your problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That statement is incorrect.. Check Live Update #13 bud....<hr></blockquote> <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=26266" target=_blank>*cough cough*</a>

[Nayr]

<P>I can solo a 67 ^^^ with ease</P> <P>Nayrue</P> <P>Blackburrow</P> <P>70 Paladin</P>

[Cyrdemac]

<DIV>You can solo them? Please try them now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Crib92]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WAPCE wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Knesh wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crib92 wrote:<BR> <DIV>You mitigation isn't horrible so I don't see a problem there.  Is your gear T6 or T7?  Raw mitigation might not tell the whole story. <FONT color=#ff0000> The lower lvl your gear the lower the percent mitigated.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What AA lines did you go?  Str/Agi?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would recommend using your knockdowns, interrupts, etc.. as much as possible.  Are you getting debuffed during the fight?  With your Wisdom as low as it is  (Assuming defensive stance)  you may be and this could be your problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That statement is incorrect.. Check Live Update #13 bud....<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=26266" target=_blank>*cough cough*</A><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually no I'm not.</P> <P>1.  Live update does not mention anywhere in it that mitigation % is the same regardless of level</P> <P>2.  I tested this out last night again.  I used two pieces of armor.  One was lvl 59 and the second was lvl 67.  The lvl 67 armor had 2 more mitigation points.  (Basically the same)  The lvl 67 armor had 0.9% more mitigation.  That is a significant jump for only two mitigation points.  So I would recommend that you go back and check it yourself if you don't believe me.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Leawyn]

<blockquote><hr>Crib92 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> WAPCE wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Knesh wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Crib92 wrote: <div>You mitigation isn't horrible so I don't see a problem there.  Is your gear T6 or T7?  Raw mitigation might not tell the whole story. <font color="#ff0000"> The lower lvl your gear the lower the percent mitigated.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>What AA lines did you go?  Str/Agi?  </div> <div> </div> <div>I would recommend using your knockdowns, interrupts, etc.. as much as possible.  Are you getting debuffed during the fight?  With your Wisdom as low as it is  (Assuming defensive stance)  you may be and this could be your problem.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote>That statement is incorrect.. Check Live Update #13 bud.... <hr> </blockquote><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=26266" target="_blank">*cough cough*</a> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Actually no I'm not.</p> <p>1.  Live update does not mention anywhere in it that mitigation % is the same regardless of level</p> <p>2.  I tested this out last night again.  I used two pieces of armor.  One was lvl 59 and the second was lvl 67.  The lvl 67 armor had 2 more mitigation points.  (Basically the same)  The lvl 67 armor had 0.9% more mitigation.  That is a significant jump for only two mitigation points.  So I would recommend that you go back and check it yourself if you don't believe me.</p> <p>  </p><hr></blockquote>Remember that you are looking at the mitigation % against a mob the same level as you. For a level 67, that % may be diff. A level 59 wearing that same peice of gear will have a higher % increase over no peice than a lvl 70.<div></div>

[Crib92]

<P>I don't want to derail this thread any further.</P> <P>One already exists on this subject and is ongoing:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=26291#M26291" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=26291#M26291</A></P> <P> </P> <P>Bottom line, Lvl 59 armor doesn't mitigate against higher lvl mobs as effectively.  A level 70 toon will want armor close to his level in order to have the most effectivate % mit.</P>

[Baldar]

<P>This may be the problem.. if this is you, your stats are way below what you posted above.. 500 less hp, 147 less str, 190 less wis and 43 less agi..</P> <P><BR><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=305365301" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=305365301</A></P> <P>if it's not you, then I apologize.. but it's the only level 70 pally with your name.</P>

[Wulfborne]

<DIV>The players site doesn't show any buffs, defensive stance, drink/food, etc. It's not uncommon for those stats to not match the in-game ones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plus, they take a once a day snapshot of your character. They might not have had on their normal set of gear when the snapshot was taken. (But I wouldn't know what their normal gear-set is).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Champion of Drednever</DIV><p>Message Edited by Wulfborne on <span class=date_text>06-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:51 AM</span>

[Cyrdemac]

You are right, the Stats on the character-page doesnt match those I had when I was tanking the monster, but as I mentioned, I was in team with a level 70 fury and had her buffs, including her excellent food (level 70 provisioner) so the Stats I posted where those I had at this moment with her and my own buffs. I am sorry if this was a little bit confusing <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And thank you for finding my char *g <P>Message Edited by Cyrdemac on <SPAN class=date_text>06-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:26 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Cyrdemac on <span class=date_text>06-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:31 AM</span>

[Matheos]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffcc>Cydermac</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffcc> Whilst not disbelieving your personal experience I could disagree more strongly about your premise that we are not tanks since my own experience is so different. Paladins make fantastic tanks both for heroic groups and for raids and I have successfully done both. I would even offer the <SPAN> </SPAN>statement that this is not a single heroic named that we cannot tank and some where we are the best. A good example is the <SPAN>Enmity of Narr'Yora in PoA where all it’s main damage is divine. I tanked this at 65 with a Mystic and a Wizard (there was a Monk and Dirge in the group but they got wiped on Pull)</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffcc>My gear is pretty good but no better than the guilds Guardian and my CA’s are Adp III with a few Master’s. I don’t recall the last time I have had trouble with anything that con’s blue with a good healer in a duo (makes for a long fight though with our DPS!!). There are even some raid mobs (more in Tier 7 I am glad to say) where a Paladin is the must have tank either because of resists, our immunity to fear (guess which AA line I have) or Amends for controlling aggro (e.g. on the Corsolander in Labs where the damage shield prevents a Guard from using his aggro generating hits).</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffcc>As a class we rock, sure we have weaknesses, but then what class doesn’t, half the fun is working around these. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffcc>My advice to you would be get a combat parser like ACT and have a look at the combat data from these fights, then plan a strategy with this info. Time your stuns and interrupts (of which we have 6), use devotion and heals to help with damage spikes and always always look for the highest level gear you can find.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffcc>Good luck, it’s a dangerous world out there but each paladin we have makes it a little safer =)</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffcc>Matheos</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffcc>70 Paladin Blackburrow</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffcc>Harbingers Guild</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>

[Plaidler]

i recently duoed blackscale with a lev 70 illusionist, we cleared the zone from beginning to end. The only limits a pally has are the limits you place on yourself. <div></div>

[ECDMupp]

I can't really speak from an EQ2 endgame perspective, since I only hit 46 last night, but I can speak from WoW's, having just retired my endgame raiding paladin there. In WoW, after you hit level 60 as a paladin, you will never tank anything, ever, unless your guild is out of warriors and druids. Paladins in WoW lack entire toolsets, like instant taunts, hi threat generating abilities, huge amounts of damage mitigation, and other things that are not only nice to have as a tank, they are a must have to defeat the encounter. Paladins in WoW do not tank, not just because warriors are better, but because in most cases, a shadow priest or hunter would be better. Blizzard killed the paladin class in their game, and it's the reason I no longer play it. As for EQ2, not only do we hae every single tool needed to successfully tank, in some cases, our tools are better than the other tanking classes, and we have tools they do not, necessitating the use of a paladin as tank (fear immunity, mentioned before). The difference is, and the thing that truly separates EQ2 from WoW, is that Blizzard really and truly does hate the paladin class. Their lead developer, and the lead raid designer, are both former EQ1 forum trolls made famous for their anti-hybrid tanking rants. SOE does not have this inbreeding problem, and therefore knows how to balance their classes from a neutral standpoint. At least, that's what I've seen since I've been back here. <div></div>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ECDMuppet wrote:<BR>I can't really speak from an EQ2 endgame perspective, since I only hit 46 last night, but I can speak from WoW's, having just retired my endgame raiding paladin there.<BR><BR>In WoW, after you hit level 60 as a paladin, you will never tank anything, ever, unless your guild is out of warriors and druids. Paladins in WoW lack entire toolsets, like instant taunts, hi threat generating abilities, huge amounts of damage mitigation, and other things that are not only nice to have as a tank, they are a must have to defeat the encounter. Paladins in WoW do not tank, not just because warriors are better, but because in most cases, a shadow priest or hunter would be better. Blizzard killed the paladin class in their game, and it's the reason I no longer play it.<BR><BR>As for EQ2, not only do we hae every single tool needed to successfully tank, in some cases, our tools are better than the other tanking classes, and we have tools they do not, necessitating the use of a paladin as tank (fear immunity, mentioned before).<BR><BR>The difference is, and the thing that truly separates EQ2 from WoW, is that Blizzard really and truly does hate the paladin class. Their lead developer, and the lead raid designer, are both former EQ1 forum trolls made famous for their anti-hybrid tanking rants. SOE does not have this inbreeding problem, and therefore knows how to balance their classes from a neutral standpoint.<BR><BR>At least, that's what I've seen since I've been back here.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Amen to that! I quit WoW for the exact same reason.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Well.....that and all of the ignorant, obnoxious kids running rampant there didn't help much either.<BR>

[Acsodeputy]

In my experience, I can honestly say that similarly geared to any guardian, Pallies can tank just as effectively.  Ask your raid healers. <div></div>