An Agility Line Analysis for PVP. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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KaelVolorus

06-01-2006, 03:28 AM

<div></div><div></div>Abstract This analysis tests a few elements from the Crusader's agility line from a PVP standpoint. I became curious as to whether speccing full agility would increase my melee/overall DPS when using a two-handed weapon. A few quirks were found, and some things I did not like about the mounted requirement. Overall, Joust was determined to be well worth the 8 points, but the the points required to finish out the line were better used elsewhere.Introduction to the Agility Line I tested the 4 abilities at level 70, with 358 STR, 90 AGI, 265 STA, 317 INT, and 276 WIS, self buffed:<ul><li>Joust (Rank <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Description says the second hit only hits if on horseback):</li><ul><li>303-505 melee damage on target.</li><li>303-505 piercing damage on target.</li><li>If Great Spear or Spear equipped in Primary.</li></ul></ul><ul><li>Trample (Rank <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Description says the second buff only gets applied if on horseback):</li><ul><li>Caster has 18.0% chance of having their primary weapon's auto attack affect multiple targets they are facing who are within melee range.</li><li>Applies Horse Trample</li><ul><li>Caster has 18.0% chance of having their primary weapon's auto attack affect multiple targets they are facing who are within melee range.</li></ul></ul></ul><ul><li>Higher Ground (Rank 4) (Description says Solid Saddle only gets applied if on horseback):</li><ul><li>Increases defense of caster by 6.5.</li><li>On a successful melee attack, this spell has a 4% chance to cast Solid Saddle on target. Lasts for 4 seconds.</li><ul><li>Grants caster immunity to most knockdown effects.</li></ul></ul></ul><ul><li>Lance (Rank 1) (Description says the Snare and DOT only get applied when on horseback):</li><ul><li>Inflicts 448-748 melee damage on target.</li><li>Inflicts 72 piercing damage on target every 4 seconds for 24 seconds.</li><li>Applies Snare.</li><ul><li>Slows target by 39%</li><li>5% chance to dispel when target recieves hostile action.</li><li>5% chance to dispel when target takes damage.</li><li>If target is not Epic.</li></ul><li>If Great Spear or Spear equipped in primary.</li></ul></ul>Goals Being on a PVP server, Paladins sometimes have trouble keeping themselves alive if they are tanking, or dishing out enough DPS to prove their usefulness over a scout. Tanking in PVP becomes tough when you're trying to cast a heal or a spell and get constantly interrupted due to the high amount of stuns/knockbacks/interrupts that your enemies will be sure to use on you. Doing more DPS is difficult simply because our class is not meant for it. At times, without updated spells, a Paladin can find himself more comparable to a bard than anything else, due to the high amount of utility through buffs/heals/res ability, and low amount DPS. I wish to extend this utility to:<ul><li>Maximize melee DPS.</li><ul><li>Running to/from/after an opponent is a huge part of PVP. Being able to use something on the move is important.</li><li>Spells can be interrupted. Combat arts cannot.</li></ul></ul><ul><li>Maximize burst DPS.</li><ul><li>Taking down a caster/scout/healer more quickly before they can harm your group (or offer help to his group) seems to work better than simply taunting them in D-stance until your group is able to offer the DPS to eliminate them.</li><li>Being able to burst DPS a clothie enough can send them running. If they're running, they're not lighting me on fire.</li></ul></ul><ul><li>Possibly integrate a snare into my arsenal.</li><ul><li>It's beyond frustrating to watch as an enemy runs off to the bell/carpet while in the red, and there's nothing you can do about it.</li></ul><ul><li>Slowing someone down that won't be able to evac can allow your teammates to get a hit in on the enemy, gaining faction/status for everyone.</li></ul></ul>Approach I began by going all out into agility, and while I was at it, I decided to put points into melee crit in the stamina line. My build was: AGI 5 8 8 4 1, STA 4, 4, 8. Since the last point in agility costed 8 points, this totals to 49 achievement points. This does not include the mandatory achievement point in Concenter. My reasoning for the build is that I wanted to see how hard Joust and Lance hit, and how big of a difference the AOE from trample would be for PVP. The weapon I used is the Ribcage Scythe, a level 66 Great Spear with an 85.7 damage rating, and a 2.5 second delay. To get used to the build, my guildmembers and I ran a quick Nest of the Great Egg run to be able to thoroughly test the AOE ability. After this initial PVE run to get a nice feel for my new abilities and buffs, my guild went to Sinking Sands and Tenebrous Tangle to try and find some real action: PVP. We found a multitude of grey Freeportians in Sinking Sands, which was adequate for testing standard "ganking". However, we found a group of 65-70s in Tenebrous Tangle, and went 3 and 0 against them, forcing them out of the Temple of Scale and TT itself. These battles against people our level tested the utility of the build.Results I mounted on my carpet before heading into Nest, believing that "horse" in the ability descriptions was synonymous for "mount". I got inside, still had the Trample buff on me, and began to hit encounters. To my surprise, I wasn't getting the expected 36% chance to AOE; I was AOEing about once every 5 or 6 hits. This struck me as odd, since I had gotten on my mount before entering, and still had the buff on the inside. Later, after finishing the instance, I stepped outside, got on my 10% paladin horse, and rebuffed. I then had the Horse Trample buff in addition to Trample. You must indeed be on a horse, not any mount. In PVE, the AOE was nice to have, and definitely added to my DPS in such a controlled situation. My guild tank tends to just try and gather as many mobs as he can, get as much hate as he can, and just let loose on the AOE DPS. This works, and this time allowed me to do a lot of testing with Trample. It does indeed proc off of auto attacks only, and does come in handy at taking down AOE encounters. I was surprised at Joust. Since it's roughly equivalent to a double attack built into a CA, one can hit a mob with it and immediately land an auto attack for around 1500 immediate damage. This is the kind of melee burst I was looking for, so I approved of how it performed in PVE. Joust does not require you to be on horseback for the second hit to land, despite what the description says. Next up was Lance's initial PVE test. The damage is significant, like a critical hit auto attack. The snare wasn't entirely useful in PVE, since the best escape is to just /yell and book it away if you have to. The DOT wasn't very significant enough, only adding about 75*6 = 450 more damage to the mob over time. Lance does require you to be on horseback for the DOT and the snare to land. As for Higher Ground, which is a passive ability, I did not notice a significant effect from the increased defence. Nor was the immunity to knockdown effects noticable, as rarely is one knocked down in PVE. This was considered a waste of 4 points from a PVE perspective, but the defense is nice to have for tanking. On to PVP, where these skills are much more important. In the fight with grey Freeps in SS, there was rarely a situation where there was a nice bundle of freeportians just aching to get trampled. In PVP, no matter what level opponents you fight, things just get spread out. I noticed about 3 instances where the AOE was effective, and multiple opponents took about a 500 point hit from my scythe. But what does it matter? They're grey. The only concern that should be had for grey enemies in PVP is the fact that they're going to try and get away, some way or another. Doing AOE damage isn't as effective, as one is always trying to target the scout/wizard/warden/SK to keep them from evaccing. In the situation of the Paladin who wants to gank people at this level, (and yes I am ashamed to say I'm a Paladin doing a bit of research on how to make this kind of ganking more efficient) higher single target damage, roots, stifles, or snares are what's needed, not more AOEs, of which the paladin already has a fair share. In the fight against the higher level opponents in Tenebrous Tangle, Trample became an annoyance. Trample would trigger and hit the level 58 basket quest mobs around the entrance to TT, and cause more trouble for my group. These extra mobs would not only absorb my attacks and get aggro on me, but also absorb the otherwise precisely executed AOEs performed by the rest of the group, resulting in a possible wipe. A better use of this ability is found in a wide open area, where mobs aren't likely to be hit by one of our AOEs. However, around 50% of the time, one cannot depend on such a situation in PVP, so these buffs would be encouraged to be disabled before engaging the enemy group. In other words, turn it off so you don't get yelled at. Joust, however, shone brightly. In the Sinking Sands ganking scenario, I had the extra DPS that I needed in order to keep someone from escaping. Our single target stun, auto attack, and Joust were enough to land about 2000 immediate damage on a grey enemy. That's a hefty amount of pre-chase damage. For a grey clothie, you're pretty much ensured some free faction due to being able to extremely quickly do more damage than they have hit points. The same was true in the fight against the 65-70 Freeportian group in Tenebrous Tangle. I chose to dish out my damage on the clothie and the healer. Aside from when I was taunted, and chose to deal more AOE damage so as to also hit my initial target, I was full on DPS on these two. It proved extremely effective. The necro would go down extremely fast, and since I could save my kick for when I needed to interrupt an important heal rather than blowing it whenever it was up for the added damage, I was able to keep them more or less locked down, and eventually dead. This quick, high damage, extemely low cost, and quick recharging (30 sec) combat art proved to be just what I was looking for. The healer even began to try and heal himself rather than his group, which was even more potent, since their group would go down much more easily. I never noticed Higher Ground proc Solid Saddle. Even if it did, the buff would be extremely situational, and only when you're fighting a kick-happy fighter. My main worries as far as knockdowns go are Bruisers, which are getting significant nerfs in the upcoming LU. Even so, the chance for this knockdown immunity ability was far too small, and the buff far too short, to offer any use out of it in a self-only ability. I'd possibly consider it for a more defensive oriented Paladin, and if it were a group buff, but it's not. Greys weren't able to land enough knockdowns on me to make a difference, and if you know how to keep yourself above your enemy in PVP, or at least away from the ledges, you shouldnt have knockdown problems. To test out Lance, I ventured to a certain place in SS where a few players, who we like to call the "farmers", always sit and camp the goblins. Fortunately, they're Freeportian, and have contributed a large amount of PVP faction to me, since they're extremely easy to take down and rarely run. They did get snared, and did take damage from the DOT. I was able to easily chase down clothies without evac, or others that I got a very good jump on. The DOT would usually break the snare after a few hits, especially if I'm right there with the guy spamming combat arts. This was a bit inconvenient, but the snare did allow me to get a little more damage in before stopping and hitting my Refusal button to get rid of the remainder of their hit points. Lance wasn't as effective against non-runners, like the group we faced in TT. The group didn't run except to the zone line, which wasn't that far away, and they had immunity from death at the time. Lance seemed to only contribute the small DOT and the damage from the combat art itself, which was significant. The horse requirement for Lance/Higher Ground was quirky. The Paladin can mount up before heading into an instance/dungeon, and still keep the buffs inside where mounts arent allowed. When you die, you lose these buffs, and the only way to get them back is to go outside, mount up, and head back in. This is very bad if you're inside an instance with a lockout. Either the achievement needs to be changed so that you lose the buffs when you go inside, or keep them when you die inside. Otherwise it seems more like an exploit than a feature.Conclusion My previous build was WIS 4 4 8 8, INT 5 4 8 8. I adore my spell/heal crit, and the two buffs I get from the wisdom line are great for both PVP and PVE survivability and efficiency. I'll be returning to something similar after this series of tests. Joust is something that is too good to give up. This high damage ability is cheap, and can make a significant difference in PVP. The quicker you take down an opponent, the quicker the enemy group will lose buffs and DPS from their fallen teammate, and the morale hit can be just as large. My final build will without a doubt include 8 points in Joust. Trample is too situational, and more of a PVE ability. I would not choose this from a PVP standpoint due to all the annoyances associated with it. The extra AOE is not much more than a neat feature, which will be disabled half the time when fighting around mobs, and could cause you or your group a lot of grief due to added mobs. Higher Ground didn't offer any type of noticable difference whatsoever. A few times I simply forgot it was there, since I didn't see any benefit to it. Significant improvements would have to be made to this ability to make it worth taking except for the defense buff. Lance was a nice ability. The damage it did was significant and I enjoyed the snare, but didn't find it as useful as expected. Sure, it's useful in chasing down someone you're trying hard to gank, but it's more of a solo ability than anything. If you're in a group and PVPing, you'll usually be able to kill someone with the combined DPS of the group before they get away, or the enemy won't be running, but instead fighting you. If they're fighting you, they lose their run buffs as well, so there's no need to snare except in rare situations. Nevertheless, this ability is powerful. All in all, I decided that blowing at least 8 points on Trample and Higher Ground was not worth it just to get to Lance, when other things are far more useful to a Paladin like me. For my final build, I knew that I had to have Joust, however. That kind of quick burst damage is far too useful to pass by. At the very least, I would suggest speccing AGI: 4 8 just for Joust. Trample would be of use to someone more into extra melee damage in PVE, and Higher Ground would be useful to someone in a PVE tanking position. The only tanking I'll be doing is through some 6-man instances where the extra defense isn't needed, and extra damage can be obtained through my own AOEs, and better placement of the achievements. I chose a hybrid of the agility line and my previous build: AGI: 4 8 WIS: 4 4 5 INT: 4 4 8 8. If anyone has questions about the intelligence or wisdom lines, send me a tell in game or a PM on the forums. <div></div>Message Edited by KaelVolorus on 08-14-2006 03:46 AM

Kaleyen

06-01-2006, 03:38 AM

Good right up, few questions though. I have found some good 2HS weapons (BBC) some decent crushing weapons and so forth. I was relucent to go any other line because of the requirements of weapons. So first off, which 2-handed piercing weapon did you use? <div></div>

KaelVolorus

06-01-2006, 03:52 AM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>KaelVolorus wrote:<div></div>The weapon I used is the Ribcage Scythe, a level 66 Great Spear with an 85.7 damage rating, and a 2.5 second delay.<div></div><hr></blockquote></div>Message Edited by KaelVolorus on 08-14-2006 03:46 AM

06-02-2006, 10:48 AM

Now, that is the best post I've read in a long time. Great analysis.

Nocifer Deathblade

06-05-2006, 06:35 PM

Nice post! I'm going to add that link into my AGI-Joust and beyond ( <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=18201&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=18201&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</A>&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Yeah, Joust, by far, is my favorite spell of AGI line. It's also CA and fast cast time as well that won't hurt the swing dps itself as well. Plus, stance has no effect on Joust which is extremely nice and flexible choice for us to be in either def or off stance without hurting Joust. Trample benefits me more in PVE as SK. SK got many awesome several AE including lifetap AE. Trample augments with my AEing spell line up well. I do writ farming ALOT so trample serves me well and allows me to cut down groups of mobs very fast. I even could kill heroic named easier as long as it has groups of mobs to support it so I can steal life out of its drones. Uusualy when named went down, all drones are already dead without me directly swinging at them to finish off.. I usually train 3 groups of mobs (4 levels below me) with 3 mobs each totaling 12 mobs and start trampling them and unload all of my AE's. They all went down in 20 sec approx (In SS cave for example or TT) then I move up to pull more several mobs. It helps with writ grind faster.. Higher ground. I agree that buff for knockdown is WAY too short. Need to have longer duration.. Defense itself is nice to have especially for non-uber crusader with lack of +def bonuses from gear. It wouldn't serve uber crusader as well as it would to non uber crusader. I am not in uber guild at all and never raid so it serves me more.. I never had lance before (still 18 AA cuz was busy with trying other MMOs out so far and would be back soon. Just needed a break heh). Thanks for the information on lance that I was curious for long time.. Oh, its good to know about carpet vs horse that you just explained. I had no way to test that cuz I refused to get carpet.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Message Edited by Nocifer Deathblade on 01-17-2007 09:33 AM

jimmythenun

06-06-2006, 05:44 PM

The best PVP analysis for AA's that I've seen on any board. Fantastic write up. I have to ask, as I've just started a pally on nagafen, how did you fare in pvp at the lower levels?

KaelVolorus

06-07-2006, 02:42 AM

<div></div>At lower levels, you don't have Refusal, Decree, or Castigate. I use Refusal pretty much every minute, as I love those big hits. Decree is what I am forced to use when chasing people, and Castigate is pretty situational for me, since I don't want to aggro mobs in the middle of a fight. PVP is harder at lower levels in the fact that you don't have those weapons at your disposal, but easier in the fact that your opponents aren't tricked out in all legendaries/fableds. My paladin could hold his own pretty well at 1v1, but shone in groups due to a large portion of my paladin's role being utility, because I was not the main tank.Biggest advice I can give is to utilize your knockdowns. Use your environment to your advantage, and cause some falling damage. Even if your opponent has safefall, it gives you time to re-ward as they're coming back to you.<div></div>Message Edited by KaelVolorus on 08-14-2006 03:45 AM

VainShad

07-11-2006, 11:09 PM

Great post!50 SK here on Nagafen (PvP), and after reading your post I specced into Joust a week ago. I have 16AA currently and had previously been using the INT line.Joust is surprisingly good, the burst damage is great in PvP, and just what I needed.Even in PvE, at the end of a night's dungeon crawling, I did a log analysis, and it turned out that the damage Joust was giving me, was fairly close to what I would have got from +68% spell crit, which was pretty surprising to me.<div></div>Since I PvP, and don't care about raiding whatsoever, I'm planning on:AGI 4 8 (Joust)INT 4 4 8 (+68% spell crit)STA 4 8 8 (3s hammer knockdown, +22.5% melee crit)

Brigh

07-12-2006, 12:36 AM

Good Vysh. I have 58 pal was main on Najena and started pvp paladin.I wondered about these. I like the idea of smashing a hammer to the ground knocking multiple people down.Good thing for hotkeys.I soloed an orange wiz that followed me to the CL / Nek tower from the gate. I didn't have see invis but saw him first just being within range, then as he fell behind me, the silly wizard had a light source so I could see him coming.I kicked him off the second ramp going up, he rooted me, snare started, I interrupted with spells and knocks, cured elemental with potions, and just kicked his as*.My pvp paladin only has 3 AP right now.

nodaisho

07-14-2006, 11:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jimmythenun wrote: The best PVP analysis for AA's that I've seen on any board. Fantastic write up. I have to ask, as I've just started a pally on nagafen, how did you fare in pvp at the lower levels? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I know that this is an old post, but I know also that other people that want to make paladins want to know this. From my experience, in the teens, if you have good equipment (app IV, a legendary item or 2 (harvest in ant while you are below ten for the rares)) you can be a monster in PvP. Selfbuffed, I have taken out a blue fury while his yellow assassin friend stabbed me in the back, and taken the assassin down to red, at which point he got away because of the lack of snares.

Taipans

07-25-2006, 04:38 PM

I would like to hear the same write up on the Wisdom and Strength lines! Get to writing!:smileywink: lol Message Edited by Taipans on 07-25-2006 05:38 AM

Brigh

11-02-2006, 02:09 AM

bumping this up for those that have recent posts on this question.

Moonreft

11-02-2006, 04:14 AM

Great writeup, thoughtfull and informitive.

Brigh

01-16-2007, 01:47 PM

Bringing this back up because another thread in the Achievements forum reminded me of this thread I had bookmarked and referenced them to it.I now have my pvp paladin's Joust at rank 7.I contemplated leaving it at 4 and putting some points elsewhere or at least start into Trample.With 100 AP now it is hard to decide where to go.I currently have STA bulwark maxed with 4 in Hammer. The self hp buff in EOF Hero is maxed as well.If and when Smite Evil is ever fixed in PVP, I may decide to get some points into spell crits.Message Edited by Brigh on 01-16-2007 12:56 AM

Brigh

01-19-2007, 03:47 PM

Ok just got Trample 1...what the hell is the deal with that stupid animation every time you zone with it on? :pBTW I lose about 9% health on zoning with this buff up too.Message Edited by Brigh on 01-19-2007 03:01 AM

Brigh

01-23-2007, 11:31 PM

Been using Joust 7 and Fervor 7 for a few days now, and I never notice big hits like I do in PVE (PVP).I can see crits for 900ish, maybe 1k with Joust 7, but every time in PVP I only see measly 300, 400...even 275 total on leather / chain classes.There is no PVP stats check box when examining the ability.Is this just so totally toned down in PVP without telling us in the description?