Group tanking, aggro issues, and AA choices

[Kenji11]

   Okay, today I tanked for a group in PoA. We had a 69 ranger, 67 wizard, 69 assassin, a healer, and myself, 67 paladin. So to start with, I have Amends at adept3, Clarion Cry at adept3, Righteous Dash adept3, Righteousness Adept1 (spongy loams are way overpriced). So I throw amends on the wizard, tell him to unload everything he's got. He's happy, im happy. We head out, start fighting, assassin keeps pulling aggro, mind you the assassin has Murderous Design on me, so he should be giving me 27% of his hate, but still manages to pull aggro off me, almost every tiime. Good thing is, when do does that, I just chain stun the mob for like 10 seconds so we kill it before it decides to maim him.   Anyway, eventually the wizard afks for a while, so I put amends on the assassin. Now the ranger starts pulling aggro, with his 39% hate reduction. Then the wizard comes back, starts nuking, and he pulls aggro... off the ranger... who pulled it off me.... So in that kind of setup, even on single mobs using all my taunts, and some attacks, as soon as they refresh, I still lose aggro to everyone cept who ive got amended... and even the amended person managed to steal aggro from me once... The only time I have complete aggro control is when I fire off Sigil, but that still only works every few fights, and I perfer to save it for when we get a bunch of adds... which was quite often.   So, what am I doing wrong? I figure that if I have 40% of a dps's hate, plus all my taunts, and knockdowns, and stuns, and my craptastic dps, I should not be losing aggro to just about everyone cept the healer. And the saddest thing is, in the end, a zerker about the same lvl as me, maybe a bit higher, came in, they all suddenly wanted him to tank, and he almost NEVER lost aggro on ANYTHING to ANYONE... not even me when I decided to amend a dps and see if I could pull aggro off him.   Also, I wanted to ask a somewhat unrelated question about AAs. I am only going with the str and int lines, so from those 2 what would be most beneficial overall?A) 17.6% haste, 5.2% hate, final str ability, 69% crit spells, 35% crit healsB) 8.8% haste, 10.4% hate, final str ability, 69% crit spells, 35% crit healsC) 8.8% haste, 5.2% hate, final str ability, 69% crit spells, 69% crit healsD) 17.6% haste, 10.4% hate, 69% crit spells, 69% crit heals<div></div>

[Sabrekong]

<div>Wait, wait....what did you pick for your master 2 choice?  Our new group taunt was available for master 2'ing...also, knowing who generates more hate per skill in your group is huge if you want to keep aggro...your case is the 1st I've heard that an assassin couldn't keep aggro from a Ranger or Wizard...it's always the exact opposite for me...plus your comment of "craptastic dps" also is a problem since doing damage to the enemy / enemies you're fighting is one of the easier ways of getting aggro on to you...if my guess is correct, your WIS probably beats all your other stats by a ton....if so, you need to invest in some STR / STA gear (that has good mit) as your primary stats to look for, with AGI / WIS as the secondary stats to keep your eye out for...usually in a group fully buffed i can have anywhere from 600-860 STR, and 430-500-ish STA...so yeah, I think all you really need to do is beef up your character alittle more, you know, start pumping some iron and such so your DPS isn't as bad as it used to be, and you should see a huge difference...also in case the Wizzy / Assassin / Ranger in your group were just going all out on all mobs all the time, Sigil of Heroism is your best friend if you're ever in a group that has more than 1 really big aggro stealer...that's all I can think of at any rate, hope this helps.</div>

[Goejun]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Well, I have master version of our taunts spells. I have also master of almost all my damages spells (all my AE, 3/4 of my single target)..Despite that I lose also agro from time to time:- when there is too much resist - OR when DPS do a big crit/proc- OR when the DPS are all of the same power without one doing much more damages than the others- OR when there is an AE DPS against SINGLE TARGET DPS- OR when the amended DPS get resisted (u lose its bonus)- OR when there is another class tank in the group (even he is 3 level under me with adept I or III spells....sic)- OR any other reason that breaks the slim limits of our taunting ability.Losing agro from time to time might not seem a problem but there are places where you dont want to lose it a single time like HOF.You will always have Pally that says we dont have aggro problem (the same that say that we don't have mitigation problems since KOS btw) or that will advice you to do this or that but the only thing to prevent aggro loss recently is to ask your teammates to REALLY wait some seconds to let you build aggro BUT that may be a real problem when the mobs are hiting u uber hard like in the HOF.......Conclusion:I have 31 AA and I have taken all HP bonus to just improve my chance of survival in HOF (if only we had mitigation buff !!!!!!!).After that i'm going to take the hate bonus just to reduce those risks of losing aggro.And after that I will put all points to Agility to improve my avoidance that is only 50% now.Also:- Don't take  Fear AA, its useless with  good resistance and the walk button (u hit walk button as soon as u are feared to wait the cure).- Don't take  Divine Aura because it just a joke with so much "if" that a lawyer must have imagine it (prevent AE damage IF you are the main target, prevent damages IFit doesn't go over half ur hp, you can cast it IF u haven't casted it in the last 30 mins).- Don't take Healing or DPS AA unless you are a Pally that never want to group in the toughest zone.- Take what is left of AA that make you a better tank for the group: HP, Agility, Hate gain (i can't advice you to take Mitigation AA because SOE didn't gave us as they think we are not tanks....).- check the broker for master taunt spells over anything else then damage spells- check the broker for items that give mitigation  bonus  on  any  slots (necks, writs..). Last advice:If you are a casual player you better reroll for another class (or wait for SOE to open their eyes, after all they gave us tower shield and ranged items after more than a year) because recently the competition to stay in the race with other tanks became quite harder....Or you could aslo camp easy places like nest or palace all day because you could feel uber there....(even the Fan Fair Nest is a joke....)<div></div><p>Message Edited by Goejun on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:56 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Goejun on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:59 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Goejun on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:06 AM</span></p>

[MeridianR]

HoF with the right group is easily done with 4-5 people (and that is going past Sothis, and fighting the named from the table, whose name escapes me)......Also if you are into tanking more so then soloing I would upgrade:-- Single Aggro Transfer (depends on your Tier whether it be Redemption, Amends, or whatever the middle tier is)-- Single Taunt-- AE Taunt-- Shield Bash-- Sigil of Heroism-- Defensive Stance-- Avoid buff (Resolute Faith, etc..)-- AE DamageThen you can get into:-- Offensive Stance-- Procs (Single and group)-- Single Target DamageYou might want to switch around some of the upgrades, but that is the list I would work on.<div></div>

[Majorminor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kenji1134 wrote:   So I throw amends on the wizard, tell him to unload everything he's got. He's happy, im happy.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Could the Wizard of been just outta range on the amends?  I know they put in a range for it to work now, probably not the case in there, but is a possible reason you might not have been getting his hate.  Though then He probably would have gotten aggro /shrug.  Just a thought.

[Kenji11]

Okay, guess ill specify some things. Generaly speaking, I have about or over 3k AC in def stance, and about 45% avoidance. Around 300-400 str, 200ish wisdom, 200ish sta. Now honestly, compared to anothe rpaladin I know who is in full xegonite, my stats suck. The combination of his full xeg ad acrylia gives him about 6.6k hp, like 3.5k power, a bit more AC than I have, and so on. So I am not exactly the best equipped pally, considering xeg costs 4p and spongy loams cost 4.5p, and I could never stand farming plat for long periods of time. I am in mostly cobalt, but thats beside the point.   Oh yeah, about the master2 choice, I took the single target heal, since I am in a semi-raiding guild and am nowhere near ready to tank anything of that scale yet. Though oddly enough, they want me to get to 70 asap, then start farming gear and loams, then relic and fabled, and make me the 3rd MT for thier raids.... that would be awsome.   So back to the point, I am not as [Removed for Content] as I get the feeling some of you think I am. I can tank multiple heroic adds with a single healer, and single heroics without a healer, just need a good dps and I can chainstun and heal when needed. Also, the entire group was very close to me, so I dont think the amended person ever got out of amend's range.   I figure if I manage to get my new group taunt to adept3 I should do better, but one other question. Right now I have clarion cry adept3, and goading gesture. At this point, goading gesture does more initial hate than clarion cry, but clarion cry does more hate overall, so what's better, more hate now, or more hate over time. Numbers are for clarion cry total 1327-1623, and I think gesture is about 955-1119 with a 10% to double<div></div>

[Goejun]

<div></div>I would play the security and go by Clarion Cry because its minimum is over Gesture.You, like me, are gimped compared to other plat tank.Before you ask, I have 3900 mitigation for 54% absord (better say the % because this value only take into account the tier malus of your gear wheras u can have more mitigation for lower % absorb in fact if u use T6). I have also 6900 HP and 49.9 % avoidance.But there is some Paly on my server that reach 64% absord (over 5000 mitigation) with self buff.And seeing that the toujhest mobs do most damages with melee amplify our problem.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Goejun on <span class="date_text">04-05-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:38 AM</span></p>

[Canlao]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Kenji1134 wrote:  ....mind you the assassin has Murderous Design on me, so he should be giving me 27% of his hate, but still manages to pull aggro off me, almost every tiime. ...<hr></blockquote>Since when did aggro transfer buffs stack?</span></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<div>I dont know if the problem still persists or not but sigil of heriosm(after it was fixed again to not cancel amends) was reported to mess up other group members hate transfers to you.   In the above situation from the OP, who had the biggest hate transferof the ranger or assassin?  I would have had the highest hate transfer on you then amends the other one and lay off sigil to see how the agro was.  If they truely fixed sigil to not mess up other hate transfers then go ahead and use sigil.  Currently i use sigil in non scout group situations only and have had minimal agro issues.  With the long casting time of wizards it is usually more reliable to get your hate thru amends on faster dps classes if they are roughly in the same tier level.  I do not mean that wizards lack DPS, i just mean per sec they can go from a couple hundred damage to thousands then back to no or hundreds in damage and if they run out of power with their power hungry spells you are not getting a boost.  The Ranger or assassin has much less power hungry spells and low/no power melee/range attacks for added hate.  Just statin my opinion from previous groups, your results may be different...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Wulfborne]

<div>In theory they should, since they are different buffs, but currently no aggro redux buffs seem to work alongside Amends.</div><div> </div><div>That being said, the assasin and ranger's hate dump was probably doing absolutely nothing since you had Amends up on someone else. This would also explain why the Berzerker held aggro better... All hate dump was being put into him...who (not having amends) did not have the stacking issue, and thus made full use of their aggro transfer. I would bet, had you just dropped Amends completely and told everyone to aggro dump to you, you'd have fared better, minus the Wiz's aggro. You also made the Zerker have an easier time maintaining aggro by having your Amends on the Wiz. You essentially became a heat sink for the Wiz aggro, and the other classes were dumping it all to the Zerker. If you didnt have Amends on the Wiz in that situation, there would be a higher possibility of him pulling aggro off the Zerker.</div><div> </div><div>But hey, aggro is a group effort. In that situation (with Amends unable to stack with other aggro transfers) the Zerker probably *should* have been tanking, at least till they make it so other classes can still hate dump to us even if we have Amends on another player.</div><div> </div><div>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Paragon of Truth</div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<div>Hmm i thought the way it works now, as long as amends is not cast on a class that is hate transfering to you there is no problem.  If the OP was amends the wizard and the 2 scout classes were transfering hate, wouldnt the highest transfer stick or the last cast one?  I guess the big question is:  What confirmed spells/arts from classes will mess up amends and does sigil cancel non amends hate transfers?  Plus does different classes hate transfers stack?</div>

[MeridianR]

Place Amends on the RangerHave the Assassin place MD on you.Should work fine....normally I just place amends on the assassin, and have no problems, but the above should work.<div></div>

[Deevaun]

<p>First, get a parser, see how much dmg they are all doing.  Some players are better at playing their classes then others.  Know who you play with, how well they play their classes, then decide. </p><p>Most cases, i will let the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] put murderous design on me, and I will put amend on the wizard.  rangers should have hate reducers on and should never pull agro as t hey suck. </p><p>Amend will stack with other hate transfers.  I group with swash / [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] / other dps all the time and never have issues. </p><p>Sigil last i checked ( which was a while ago), was bugged with all transfers except amend.  I never cast it in groups iwth [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]/swash. </p><p>Dude, OMG, if you don't have master 1 righteousness, you should respec and pick master 2.  That is a freaking AWESOME ability.  Not only does it taunt the group encounter, but it debuffs them allowing you to do more dmg. </p><p>Really though, start parsin and see whose slackin.  if you have a lazy wizard, but active ranger, have ranger drop hate reducer and put it on him while [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is feeding you hate you should have no problem until the wizard gets his head out of his [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but even then you should have a lot of hate. </p><p>Zerkers suck in hate, I don't understand how you are having issues.......unless hes [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing with you casting rescue .</p><p>One more thing, if you taunt a mob and somehow get knocked back or back up to a certain range, the mob will turn to the next highest on hate list if they are eright on top of him.  Range does matter.  If you wanna test it, get agro, back off the mob, notice how it turns, then step back up to the mob and see how it turns back to you.  Keep in range of the mob. </p><p> </p>

[Canlao]

<div></div>Amends is level 49Murderous Design is level 53Swarthy Disorder is level 62Personally I have found that if any of those three are stacking you get less hate, not sure if they cancel each other or if it’s the last one cast that counts, but I guess amends is always over written as it is the lowest level spell. When I group with a swashy or an assassin and they dump their hate on me I don’t hold aggro as well.I always ask them to drop the aggro transfers and let me amend the biggest hate generator. Then parse the first few fights and see if any one is drawing aggro, switching amends targets if needs be.If you are having a hard time holding aggro check your buffs and 9/10 you will find that some one is over writing your amends, and if their buff is not adept 3 or master 1 the problem will be compounded. Also make sure they do not cast the spell on another tank or member of the group, especially if you have cast amends on them.As for sigil it works great now, if you get more than one encounter, pop up sigil, cast a few aoes, tell the group to blue aoe and you should have them all locked down.<div></div>

[PulsarBD]

as master 2 choice at 64 you should have taken rigtheouness (group taunt with debuff) if you plan on tanking.also get Amends and Calrion Cry to at least Adept3 and try to get as high Valorous Dash as what you can afford.Also get sigil of heroism at adept3 or master lvl, it can be a life saver.also a good aggro keeper is consecrate from my experience, especially if you get some adds, be careful though to not use it when u might aggro even more then (watch AE radius)The taunts are critical for you being tank. then like another poster said, ask your groupmates to wait a sec to let you fully establish aggro on mobs. from what i have seen, zerkers and guards can keep aggro a bit more easy, then we pallies can.nevertheless pallies can be terrific tanks if played right. it takes maybe a bit more skill as the bandwith for errors for us is smaller (less HP and mitigation) but we have other tricks (amends, divine favor for example).regading the AA lines:i started with WIS line, just because i thought it had some nice abilities, plus teh best 1H weapon i found so far was Scalesplitter which increased my avoidance by 0.8% and even has a decent damage rating.however when you are tank, you might want to go the STA line ( i just completely respecced to that one, spening 29 AA point all the way down to Divine Aura) i will then start to look into the STR line as well maybe.but the HP increase (first by STA points and then by percentage) beefed me up nicely so i can get group buffed now over 10k HP <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span>.also hammer ground is just fabulous i have it with 5 points currently , it does nice AE damage plus an AE stun which is also very important, especially in the instances with the harder hitting mobs like HoF. about the cirtical melee increase i can not tell anything yet.my basic problem is to find still a decent hammer (or maybe axe to work on the STR line).but everyone has a different playstyle, so just look which advices fit your playstyle best.<div></div>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<P>In all fairness, a Zerker that knows what he's doing can get some -insane- hate generation going. And in a group where you have so many multiple DPS classes, even the vaunted Amends can make tanking difficult. The agro-stacking issues are suspected, though never fully confirmed because, frankly, how can you measure 'Hate'? The Wizard was the correct choice, for what it's worth.</P> <P>I will toss my agreement in with a respec to Master 2 Righteousness. If you plan on consistantly Main Tanking, it's almost a must have.</P> <P>AA's have no effect your -capability- to tank any instance zone in game. Decent equipment and skill will bring you further then any AA will (Though they can certainly be a great -help- they aren't utterly necessary.)</P>

[demolition tank]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>FIrst thing you should do is get your splitpaw taunt, it's better then our master single taunt. If I have a swashbuckler in my team, I can count on looseing aggro 1/2 though every fight. I have master group taunt, master sheild taunt ect.. all I can tell you is paladins suck at holding aggro. I guess it's because we do such horrible damage and our taunts are only second in badness to monks / bruisers who get [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tons of damage to make up for it. On a brighter note you can heal your DSP when they pull aggro, lol! WTB higher damage or better taunts. I would probbaly switch my class to guardian or zerker given the chance. A paladins role should be more clearly defined. At higher levels we go from being "good" at everything to really "sucking" at everything.  It seems like we peak at level 50 and just steadily break down after. There needs to be some level 50-70 class balanceing. Pre-DoF we seem to maintain a balance of taunts, tanking and damage, post-dof we see our selves bounce all over the place and ultimarly end up as a poor-man's Non-Raid team tank at level 70 which needless to say just plane blows. <p>Message Edited by demolition tank on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:38 PM</span>

[robusticus]

<P>Yes, we lack single target dps.</P> <P>But I've duo'd most of my career with a swashie and have several times experienced them hitting and the mobs subsequently coming to find me, even if I was 50 meters away.  It doesn't happen all the time, though, only a handful of times total.  Only thing I can think of is amends + group buff proc + avoidance check... might have tipped it enough in those cases.  But aside from that, swashie's are pretty tame in my experience.  Make sure to get distraction from them.</P> <P>Conventional wisdom says put amends on the wizzie in the OP's set up.  I've never had much luck with that.  Can't say that I've had both an assasin and a wizard in the same group since, but next time I'm going to try amends and the avoidance check on the assasin and tell them to go all out.  And then also maybe offensive stance.</P> <P>Relic armor for better single target dps.  Too bad the raid to ld ratio is so high.</P>

[demolition tank]

If you have a good swash in the team they really can OD any other class in the game, it's really sick to see how high they hit in the dumper. Now, it does vary drastically from swash to swash, I have a 65 swash friend and a 70 swash friend, the 65 one OD's the 70 by almost twice. So, depends heavily on the player. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>demolition tank wrote:<div></div>FIrst thing you should do is get your splitpaw taunt, it's better then our master single taunt. If I have a swashbuckler in my team, I can count on looseing aggro 1/2 though every fight. I have master ammends, master group taunt, master sheild taunt ect.. all I can tell you is paladins suck at holding aggro. I guess it's because we do such horrible damage and our taunts are only second in badness to monks / bruisers who get [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tons of damage to make up for it. On a brighter note you can heal your DSP when they pull aggro, lol! WTB higher damage or better taunts. I would probbaly switch my class to guardian or zerker given the chance. A paladins role should be more clearly defined. At higher levels we go from being "good" at everything to really "sucking" at everything.  It seems like we peak at level 50 and just steadily break down after. There needs to be some level 50-70 class balanceing. Pre-DoF we seem to maintain a balance of taunts, tanking and damage, post-dof we see our selves bounce all over the place and ultimarly end up as a poor-man's Non-Raid team tank at level 70 which needless to say just plane blows. <p>Message Edited by demolition tank on <span class="date_text">04-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:17 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Errr ok...I have problems holding aggro against Brawlers who over aggro that is all.Place amends on someone else, and have the Swashie cast Swartlhy distraction (or what it is called at the higher levels) and you are fine.  If you cast Amends on the Swashie and he casts his hate buff on you, things get wacked out.Granted I have Master Amends, Master Clarion, Master Righteousness, and Master Shield Bash...but we have no aggro issues....by the same token as you stated, it is all in the player (the paladin included)</div>

[robusticus]

<P>No doubt, different players, different results.  Assasins though seem to have more aggro problems, on average.</P> <P>However, in the abstractions we use here in forum land, I would only say in the scenario above rather amends on the assasin, avoidance check on the wizard, don't turn the mob and have the wizard stand behind you and be willing to mezz for the adds on the scouts.  That probably won't work, but just a thought.</P> <P>Also, choice # D in the OP seems to be best, in my opinion.</P>

[demolition tank]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Meridian, see if you can't post some damage dumps of some of your teams with high end DD and I’ll do the same. I don't really see how it's even remotely possible to hold agro against some of the higher end DD at max levels. If you keep your agro up and target divine debuffed while cranking out your DD attacks, I don't see that there is anything more you can do, I’m pretty sure you have some incompetent DD.When you get past weather or not your DD's are idiots or I suck as a paladin, you can clearly just look at the facts and see that our aggro blows next to any other tank class includeing monk and brusiers. Paladins just plane suck at top levels and need to be more clearly defined as a class. <div></div><p>Message Edited by demolition tank on <span class=date_text>04-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:23 PM</span>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>demolition tank wrote:<div></div>FIrst thing you should do is get your splitpaw taunt, it's better then our master single taunt. If I have a swashbuckler in my team, I can count on looseing aggro 1/2 though every fight. I have master ammends, master group taunt, master sheild taunt ect.. all I can tell you is paladins suck at holding aggro. I guess it's because we do such horrible damage and our taunts are only second in badness to monks / bruisers who get [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tons of damage to make up for it. On a brighter note you can heal your DSP when they pull aggro, lol! WTB higher damage or better taunts. I would probbaly switch my class to guardian or zerker given the chance. A paladins role should be more clearly defined. At higher levels we go from being "good" at everything to really "sucking" at everything.  It seems like we peak at level 50 and just steadily break down after. There needs to be some level 50-70 class balanceing. Pre-DoF we seem to maintain a balance of taunts, tanking and damage, post-dof we see our selves bounce all over the place and ultimarly end up as a poor-man's Non-Raid team tank at level 70 which needless to say just plane blows. <p>Message Edited by demolition tank on <span class=date_text>04-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:17 AM</span><hr></blockquote>I don't think Splitpaw taunt is better than M1 Clarion Cry. M1 clarion cry has 40% less chance to be resisted. And the hate over time can help to tickle in hate even when you are stunned / stifled.

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>demolition tank wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div>Meridian, see if you can't post some damage dumps of some of your teams with high end DD and I’ll do the same. I don't really see how it's even remotely possible to hold agro against some of the higher end DD at max levels. If you keep your agro up and target divine debuffed while cranking out your DD attacks, I don't see that there is anything more you can do, I’m pretty sure you have some incompetent DD.When you get past weather or not your DD's are idiots or I suck as a paladin, you can clearly just look at the facts and see that our aggro blows next to any other tank class includeing monk and brusiers. Paladins just plane suck at top levels and need to be more clearly defined as a class. <div></div><p>Message Edited by demolition tank on <span class="date_text">04-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:23 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Like I said I can lose aggro, but it is normally to Brawlers who don't hold there aggro down (Bruisers are especially insane).....dps wise sometimes it might ping pong, but with the proper group you can totally lock down aggro.If you have a Swashie - have them cast Swarthy Deception on you and Amends someone elseIf you have an Assassin - have them cast Murderous Design on you and Amends someone elseIt all depends on your entire group makeup, but I have tanked guild groups with pure DPS (5 + myself) running instances and if I pay attention don't have issues. Typically if I have a Conjuror in the group I will throw Amends on him no matter what, since the Conj I group with does insane damage....I would agree more with you if you said we needed to have a more clearly defined raid role, but group wise I can't think of a better tank then a Paladin (unless you have a [Removed for Content] Paladin against a good other class, but that holds true for anyone).</div>

[robusticus]

<DIV>There is no issue for us in raids.  See that fervent aid button?  Target the tank and spam it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Groupwise we are a waste.  People say we have no issues because the possibility of there being no other option for a tank is much higher when there are only 6 spots.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<div><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div>There is no issue for us in raids.  See that fervent aid button?  Target the tank and spam it.</div> <div> </div> <div>Groupwise we are a waste.  People say we have no issues because the possibility of there being no other option for a tank is much higher when there are only 6 spots.</div><hr></blockquote>I totally disagree with you on both point, but everyone is entitled to there opinion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[robusticus]

<DIV>I know.  But step back from it a minute.  It's the same combat system, raiding or grouping.  The issues you have raid tanking are the same issues many have group tanking.  It isn't possible to say we can't raid tank but we are the best group tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It dilutes your message, which, incidentally, is a message I strongly agree with.  But when you say you got the same problems raid tanking that I have with group tanking and you call me a [Removed for Content] and say there is no problem... I don't want to listen any more, I just want to duel you.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

Raid tanking is a different animal then group tanking, but I can see your points...oh and I don't duel much, but hey come on over to Mistmoore and I will..lol <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<DIV>I know.  But step back from it a minute.  It's the same combat system, raiding or grouping.  The issues you have raid tanking are the same issues many have group tanking.  It isn't possible to say we can't raid tank but we are the best group tank.</DIV><hr></blockquote>There is a difference between raidtanking and group tanking.Paladin skills work good for maintaining group aggro (Sigil of Heroism etc...) our skills affect persons in our group, but not everybody in the raid.Guardian aggro skills affect the mobs hitting them and thus guardians work better for keeping aggro from persons who are not in their group.Paladins have a lead for resists, but in a raid the guardian can be buffed to extremes to have the same resists, but better mitigation than paladins due to their self mitigation buffs. A MT group in a raid isn't the most effective group when they are alone, for it lacks DPS, the DPS in a raid comes from the other groups.Problem is that resists in raids mean too little, because in a MT group it can be easily capped, mitigation on the other hand is alot harder to cap.

[robusticus]

<DIV>That's some good info on aggro.  I hope our class designers read that and take it to heart.  Amends applicable to raid friends?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How's Lowland doing raiding?  Are you tanking?  I have an old friend in your guild from way back in the day... haven't grouped with him much lately though... good to see you all posting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I read in raids the minimum resist is 12K due to debuffs.  Was getting happy to see my magic resist approach the cap self buffed until I read that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah, I won't duel ya, Phov... your mitigation versus my critical heals I think would win the battle of attrition... but give me a bit of time to collect some more armor and I might give ya a run for your money.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Robusticus<BR>Level 70 Paladin<BR>Runnyeye</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edits: Even the forums are buggy.  ARGH!</DIV> <P>Message Edited by robusticus on <SPAN class=date_text>04-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:59 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class=date_text>04-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:00 AM</span>

[demolition tank]

Robousticus, what do you do if you ARE the main tank? As a paladin I’m having to tank 4x t7 raid mobs. I’m on the PvP server and guess what? No one made a guardian because they blow at PvP. Having agro slip when I’m doing everything I can possibly do to keep it (including casting team buffs for extra hate) pisses me off, we need a damage or agro boost Meridian, that is the exact arrangement I use when teaming with a swash. I can’t team with assassins because I’m on the PvP server and goods and bads cant team. That setup works as long as the DPS is slacking, if they go all out there is no way for me to hold agro against someone who is doing 8x the amount of DPS I am doing. What is your damage setup like? Do you have some sort of nutty peircer or axe?<div></div>

[robusticus]

<P>Isn't that the grand irony?  They tank so well but you can go afk for half the fight and still win a duel against em with 1/4 mana left.</P> <P>I'm not on PvP so I have the option of punting on the whole tanking thing, which I did a long time ago, pending some adjustments to our self heal and self cure.  </P> <P>I understand dirges and troubadors provide good hate gain when they are in the MT group.  Obviously, the hate gain AA.  Relic armor (wasn't joking).  Upgrading Amends/Taunts/Sigil/Rescue.  Making sure amends is on the top dps.    Consecrate - good aggro and works while stunned.  Dunno what else that hasn't been said.</P> <P>All that and you're still liable to get a dead out of group assasin but hopefully it bounces back quick.</P>

[demolition tank]

I can't team with any assasains because their evil and I cant team or do anything with evils :p<div></div>

[robusticus]

Oop, sorry.  Dead out-of-group swashbuckler, then.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[demolition tank]

<div></div>Master Amends helps ALOT, lol.. just picked up a copy and have been able to hold steady aggro in most situations. Had adept 3.<div></div><p>Message Edited by demolition tank on <span class=date_text>04-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:39 PM</span>

[Plaidler]

hey guys, im not going to say i hold agro perfectly every battle every time, but i am the main Halls of Fate tank in our guild due to the fact i know the place [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well. I usually go with a swashy and a bruiser.I dont seem to have anywhere near the problems you guys have for holding agro but at lev 70 i am making an effort to understand other classes better so i can incorperate them in agro stratgies. I noticed when the bruiser does take agro they usually dont take much dge for a while due to their avoidence.Good!,let them grab an add while you finish the rest off.The swashy can take agro off me as well, but she can get rid of the agro just as well.Good! let her go balistic, a dead add cant hit you.What is the big deal?.When you group is it all about you or is the main aim of the group to complete the zone? We recently killed up to sothis and then the doomlord with me tanking, a swashie,a bruiser,a templar, a fury and a necro with amends on necro's pet and let me tell you we smashed this zone.It wasnt due to my tanking, it was a group effort. We also did it without killing the names which meant i had to pull from far away and run back to group clearing rooms beyond the named.Noone can pull like a pally using brimstone.  i was in a group with 2 conjurers doing the vault and i was telling them i wasnt using taunts to hold agro.I was using ae spells that crit all the time and hard fast hits with all spells and 50% haste from my gloves and str aa's.Most of my armour has good mit and def stats as well so i can take the hits no problem.I use my taunts like mini rescues and when I cast consecrate it crits very 3 sec evry mob every time.  At lev 70 i honestly believe its not the number of taunts or the big hits, its all about keeping constant pressure on the mob. Thats why this class takes practise and dedication because we must be paying attention every fight every time. Again this is not me having a bragging session, i just simply dont have the problems you guys do. <div></div>

[demolition tank]

If you can hold aggro against swashes with your DPS then they are compleetly incompetent. I think anyone here would agree with that. <div></div>

[Plaidler]

The swashy can take agro off me as well, but she can get rid of the agro just as well.we must be reading different threads.<div></div>

[DTJay]

<P>Not sure what tactic you are using for taunting or pulling, but I'd recommend the following for serious multi-target (or named) encounters.  This may sound like "DUH" but you never know, I'll post it anyway.</P> <P> </P> <P>1)  Have a macro that announces that you are pulling.</P> <P>2)  Pull, when possible, with a taunt rather than a distance spell.  A lot is social aggro in KoS so you'll often have to proximity pull anyway, but then make sure the mobs are coming towards you and away from other un-linked mobs so you don't get adds.</P> <P>3)  Once the mob is engaged, exhaust all of your taunts immediately, even group ones on a single target, and always start with the group ones on a group of targets.</P> <P>4)  After you've spammed off all of your taunts, do your 2 most effective attack spells to get some DPS hate into the mix.</P> <P>5)  Then for the rest of the encounter, taunt as they become available.</P> <P> </P> <P>My strategy is to get my hate through the roof to begin with, get some damage in, then keep up with taunts so you maintain aggro throughout the fight.</P> <P>I've seen other people tanking who arrow/spell pull, taunt once, attack, complete a HO with their taunt, and it seems to me they are the most prone to losing aggro. </P> <P>Hope that helps, if you are not doing that already.</P>

[MeridianR]

Just so you know, and others know - you can still get social / proxy aggro with pulling with taunts....so if you want to be 100% assured, then you need to body pull mobs...Over taunting isn't a bad idea if there is no possible way of getting adds.....but having no taunts up when adds come, isn't a good plan either <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Kale]

<div><blockquote><hr>DTJay wrote:<div></div> <p> This may sound like "DUH" but you never know, I'll post it anyway.</p><hr></blockquote>I think for some folks it is new information. Your description of how you tank sounds like mine. As for having taunts ready for adds: That's what 3rd person is for. I only tank in 3rd person so I can rotate my camera 360 degrees during all fights. I am always watching for adds. Being able to intercept an add before it hits a robe-wearing-snack is a good skill to have. </div>

[Leawyn]

<blockquote><hr>DTJay wrote:<div></div> <p>Not sure what tactic you are using for taunting or pulling, but I'd recommend the following for serious multi-target (or named) encounters.  This may sound like "DUH" but you never know, I'll post it anyway.</p> <p>1)  Have a macro that announces that you are pulling.</p> <p>2)  Pull, when possible, with a taunt rather than a distance spell.  A lot is social aggro in KoS so you'll often have to proximity pull anyway, but then make sure the mobs are coming towards you and away from other un-linked mobs so you don't get adds.</p> <p>3)  Once the mob is engaged, exhaust all of your taunts immediately, even group ones on a single target, and always start with the group ones on a group of targets.</p> <p>4)  After you've spammed off all of your taunts, do your 2 most effective attack spells to get some DPS hate into the mix.</p> <p>5)  Then for the rest of the encounter, taunt as they become available.</p> <p>My strategy is to get my hate through the roof to begin with, get some damage in, then keep up with taunts so you maintain aggro throughout the fight.</p> <p>I've seen other people tanking who arrow/spell pull, taunt once, attack, complete a HO with their taunt, and it seems to me they are the most prone to losing aggro. </p> <p>Hope that helps, if you are not doing that already.</p><hr></blockquote>I do similar, but I liberally use my AE dmg spells as well, all of them. Dropping a couple thousand damage in AE on a group helps to hold agro, particularly if you've got an AE dps with Amends. i love warlocks for helping me hold group agro! I can pretty much lock down single targets, its the groups of mobs that I start to have problems with as other classes AE more often and more powerfully than I can.<div></div>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Leawyn wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DTJay wrote:<BR> <P>Not sure what tactic you are using for taunting or pulling, but I'd recommend the following for serious multi-target (or named) encounters.  This may sound like "DUH" but you never know, I'll post it anyway.</P> <P> </P> <P>1)  Have a macro that announces that you are pulling.</P> <P>2)  Pull, when possible, with a taunt rather than a distance spell.  A lot is social aggro in KoS so you'll often have to proximity pull anyway, but then make sure the mobs are coming towards you and away from other un-linked mobs so you don't get adds.</P> <P>3)  Once the mob is engaged, exhaust all of your taunts immediately, even group ones on a single target, and always start with the group ones on a group of targets.</P> <P>4)  After you've spammed off all of your taunts, do your 2 most effective attack spells to get some DPS hate into the mix.</P> <P>5)  Then for the rest of the encounter, taunt as they become available.</P> <P> </P> <P>My strategy is to get my hate through the roof to begin with, get some damage in, then keep up with taunts so you maintain aggro throughout the fight.</P> <P>I've seen other people tanking who arrow/spell pull, taunt once, attack, complete a HO with their taunt, and it seems to me they are the most prone to losing aggro. </P> <P>Hope that helps, if you are not doing that already.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I do similar, but I liberally use my AE dmg spells as well, all of them. Dropping a couple thousand damage in AE on a group helps to hold agro, particularly if you've got an AE dps with Amends. i love warlocks for helping me hold group agro! I can pretty much lock down single targets, its the groups of mobs that I start to have problems with as other classes AE more often and more powerfully than I can.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>1) Good idea, particularly if you have anyone in your group you don't normally hook up with. Personally, when I am in a group with regulars, I forgo the announcement, because they know it's coming anyway. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>2) I disagree with this tactic. Taunting does *not* prevent social aggro, if the mobs are close enough to need a proximity pull (getting close enough to gain aggro through just being near them). Also, they do not come any more directly to you/your group with a taunt than they will with a damage spell. (That's just pathing). After things were changed where we could no longer nuke on the run, I generally find that the following works best for me - Pull with Brimstone (or Decree). As you are inbound to your group, hit both your AE taunt and your single target taunts (adding hate while still in motion). When you have the mobs at the group, hit your AE dd spell that also had a chance to stun the mobs (Relentless Conviction). Start bashing, slashing, etc as normal.</P> <P>3) Yes, as soon as they pop up from having used them during the pull.</P> <P>4) Meh, ok... but hate is hate, so if your shield bash is up and available (and you aren't needing to time a stun to interrupt a caster) use that. It doesn't pack as big a punch as other attacks, but it has the added hate gain ON TOP OF the damage hate.</P> <P>5) Yeah. Just a continuation of #3. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway, that's my 2cp from tanking, and it seems to work exceptionally well for me. Others may find other strats work better for them. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Paragon of Truth</P>

[Seidhkona]

<div><blockquote><hr><font color="#ffff00" size="3">MeridianR wrote:Just so you know, and others know - you can still get social / proxy aggro with pulling with taunts....so if you want to be 100% assured, then you need to body pull mobs...</font><div></div><hr></blockquote>I duo a lot with my sister, who is a mystic, and we developed a good technique for pulling one mob out of a group without getting unwanted social aggro.She sends her dog in to "fetch" the mob.  She uses implied targetting through me, with a macro like:<blockquote><font face="Courier New">/say "Rover, fetch the bad thing for %T"/pet attack</font></blockquote>Meanwhile, I'm waiting for Rover to get back with his "fetch" close enough that I can hit with Omen of Battle or Decree or whatever long-range thing I can reach it with.  As it gets closer I use taunt, taunt, strike, etc.You can stand way far back away from the mobs using this pet pull and Rover gets the mob out from the others far enough that I can hit it with anything in my arsenal without pulling all the mob's little friends in as well.(Note to self: stop by Qeynos Harbor and buy Rover a doggie treat... maybe one of the fish vendors....)</div>

[DTJay]

<P>Hehe - better clarify a few points to my "tanking tactic" as some seem to be misunderstood.</P> <P> </P> <P>1)  Absolutely no taunting when proximity (or body) pulling until the mobs are clear of their social aggro companions.  This is most evident in HoF where the "Warrior" class enemies seem to pose in place for 2-3 seconds after being proxy pulled - need to make sure they're clear of their friends and on their way to you before taunting.</P> <P>2)  When I said "other taunts as they come up thru the fight" I didn't mean to say I don't use other attacks, spells, or combat arts, just that I make sure to hit 'em when I can.</P> <P>3)  As far as saving taunts in case of adds - another key to a good MT is ensuring there are no adds.  When running a zone for the first time they can be expected but afterwards a great MT should know where the mobs / wanderers are at all times and position themselves and the group accordingly.  In the case that an add does come, make sure that your group is targeting thru you - a quick taunt / attack in the add's direction, then back to the encounter you were previously fighting, should ensure lockdown on that mob until the original group is finished.</P> <P> </P> <P>:smileyvery-happy:</P>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Canlaorn wrote:<div></div>Amends is level 49Murderous Design is level 53Swarthy Disorder is level 62Personally I have found that if any of those three are stacking you get less hate, not sure if they cancel each other or if it’s the last one cast that counts, but I guess amends is always over written as it is the lowest level spell. When I group with a swashy or an assassin and they dump their hate on me I don’t hold aggro as well.I always ask them to drop the aggro transfers and let me amend the biggest hate generator. Then parse the first few fights and see if any one is drawing aggro, switching amends targets if needs be.If you are having a hard time holding aggro check your buffs and 9/10 you will find that some one is over writing your amends, and if their buff is not adept 3 or master 1 the problem will be compounded. Also make sure they do not cast the spell on another tank or member of the group, especially if you have cast amends on them.As for sigil it works great now, if you get more than one encounter, pop up sigil, cast a few aoes, tell the group to blue aoe and you should have them all locked down.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree with this. As a swash I've grouped with a pally and tried both him amending me, and him amending another high DPS class and me transferring to him. He was still holding aggro with the transfer, but it didn't seem to be nearly as well. If he just puts amends on me there are no aggro issues period. I'm trying to figure out some hate tests I can run with a pally friend, but I'm drawing mostly blanks so far.</div>

[Ai yo]

<P>Fully agree.....</P> <P>Sloution would be like making pally AE taunt recast for like 15 sec & Sigil of Heroism - to be able to gain hate from Grp/Raid member but to be fair maybe lower the hate lvl like 20%.....</P> <P>Just a though to make our class even with other tank class......</P> <P>It really make me feel that we are like the DoF guardian which have got some agrro issue........</P> <P>Well holding agrro now compare to DoF time it just makes me stressssss & still lose many many times......</P> <P>Really hope that class designer will look at this issue..... (pls dont think that i am  noob pally I had played this toon for 1yr ++ & i know what is going on)....</P> <P>cheers only when soe class desginer do something about this..... </P>

[Hamervelder]

<DIV>The issue isn't necessarily our agro control.  DPS classes need to learn how to control their DPS.  No tank will be able to hold agro against assassins and rangers if they unload hard right out of the gate.  That said, I learned a little trick awhile back.  Find yourself a zerker.  YOU tank.  Slap amends on him or her.  Have the zerker taunt their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off.  You will not lose agro doing this.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[sliderhouserules]

<div><blockquote><hr>Deevaun wrote:<p>One more thing, if you taunt a mob and somehow get knocked back or back up to a certain range, the mob will turn to the next highest on hate list if they are eright on top of him.  Range does matter.  If you wanna test it, get agro, back off the mob, notice how it turns, then step back up to the mob and see how it turns back to you.  Keep in range of the mob. </p><hr></blockquote>I see this all the time, and it [Removed for Content] me off when mages are standing in the middle of the fray not understanding why the mobs are turning and whacking them every once in a while. I tend to position the mobs more often than I should (like when I've killed half a group and the others are all strung out). Trying to move the mobs while everyone is going ape makes the above happen a lot.</div>