Paladins really do suck.

[Geekyone]

<div></div><div></div><div><p><span>I love playing my Paladin.  Not so much for the fact that he is any good, or fun to play, but because of what a Paladin is.  He represents what is good and just.  The pinnacle of a virtuous warrior.  I like being the good guy.</span><span></span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Paladin has always been the first character I roll in MMO's and this is true with EQ2.  My Pally is level 53, and during that time, I have played every other class in the game, albeit a few of the mages classes, they are fun, but I like being in the middle of stuff.</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Let me tell you...Paladins are BORING!  I mean in a mean sort of "I'm never going to accomplish much" type of boring.  No special moves, no attacks that require me to stun, move around back, stealth then stabbity.  No fun abilities to use at just the right time.  No flurry of attacks that are awe inspiring to watch.  The worlds worst ever Heroic Opp. (Taunting while solo?!  Whoever thought of that is dumber than a rock.) No big hits, no great hit points, no great abilities to speak of.  (Please do not mention LoH it is a joke, it has been severely overnerfed.)  This is all in a group too, outside of a group Paladins are almost as bad as a Templar solo.  At least a Templar in a group is actively paying attention.  I in a group or out of one, I do the same repetitive attack combos.  Then four levels later I wake up to choose a special ability.</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Any of you that have played a pally and love them for what they are, you know my pain.  Maybe things change drastically at levels 54 and up, but I'm doubting it.  All I ask is, please please give my paladin something...anything which might make my pally fun/entertaining.</span></p></div><p>Message Edited by Geekyone on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:07 PM</span></p>

[Seidhkona]

You need a flying mount that farts fire! (reposted this from the Paladin Forum -- it's from <a href="http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip055.html" target="_blank">The Noob</a> comic)<img src="http://www.thenoobcomic.com/images/20041104.jpg"><div></div>

[Dasein]

<div>First, you do not have to taunt to pull off the HO, the encounter-level AOE spell will advance it. HOweer, as one of our taunts is tied to a debuff, it can be useful to taunt, even while soloing. Of course, fighter HOs are pretty useless at a solo level anyway.</div><div> </div><div>Second, LoH hasn't been nerfed. The only change I amaware of was lowering the reuse timer from 30 minutes to 15, which is the opposite of a nerf.</div><div> </div><div>Third, I find playing a paladin to be great fun. It takes some skill to play a paladin well, and like any class, it's not for everyone.</div>

[Xrazor]

<div></div><p>I hear ya brother...we got nothing....I mean I just started a mage and he's got more pazzaaazzz at level 7 then my 41 pally.</p><p>And yes LOH and pertinant essence is now in nerf heaven...I mean I got nothing....the only thing that could have made the pally worth playing and have a chance is the squire....but he or she does nothing...lol.</p><p>I was level 40 and took on a level 32 ^^^ heroic and I died in seconds, even after using LoH...so I thought oh well it was heroic, only to see a spell caster with a pet 5 minutes later and onlu level 38 take it on and win....lol  what?  </p><p>and don't give me gear talk, I got great stuff....we just have no big thing to cast. I play other characters and they all got bang...some can take on groups, some heroics, some dominate groups, everone has something, can't find it with pally though.</p><p> </p><p> </p>

[Jagged Halo]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:<div>First, you do not have to taunt to pull off the HO, the encounter-level AOE spell will advance it. HOweer, as one of our taunts is tied to a debuff, it can be useful to taunt, even while soloing. Of course, fighter HOs are pretty useless at a solo level anyway.<font color="#ff3300"> Very true the devine damage debuff helps a lot</font></div><div> </div><div>Second, LoH hasn't been nerfed. The only change I amaware of was lowering the reuse timer from 30 minutes to 15, which is the opposite of a nerf. <font color="#ff0000">No nerff at all</font></div><div> </div><div>Third, I find playing a paladin to be great fun. It takes some skill to play a paladin well, and like any class, it's not for everyone.<font color="#ff0000">Love playing my paladin</font></div><hr></blockquote>

[Xrazor]

<div></div>You are correct, even I just made that mistake...it is pertinant essense, I use to be able to fight ^^ stuff and give a good show with it but now it has a 5 minute recast time....used to be seconds and now I dont even use it anymore...oh well, the only good spell gone.

[SirSurpe]

<div></div>You couldn't have disliked your Pally THAT much...heck, you played him to 53! You telling us it took you that long to find out you weren't having fun??  **boggle**

[Cuz]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><p><span>I love playing my Paladin.  Not so much for the fact that he is any good, or fun to play, but because of what a Paladin is.  He represents what is good and just.  The pinnacle of a virtuous warrior.  I like being the good guy.</span><span></span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Paladin has always been the first character I roll in MMO's and this is true with EQ2.  My Pally is level 53, and during that time, I have played every other class in the game, albeit a few of the mages classes, they are fun, but I like being in the middle of stuff.</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Let me tell you...Paladins are BORING!  I mean in a mean sort of "I'm never going to accomplish much" type of boring.  No special moves, no attacks that require me to stun, move around back, stealth then stabbity.  No fun abilities to use at just the right time.  No flurry of attacks that are awe inspiring to watch.  The worlds worst ever Heroic Opp. (Taunting while solo?!  Whoever thought of that is dumber than a rock.) No big hits, no great hit points, no great abilities to speak of.  (Please do not mention LoH it is a joke, it has been severely overnerfed.)  This is all in a group too, outside of a group Paladins are almost as bad as a Templar solo.  At least a Templar in a group is actively paying attention.  I in a group or out of one, I do the same repetitive attack combos.  Then four levels later I wake up to choose a special ability.</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Any of you that have played a pally and love them for what they are, you know my pain.  Maybe things change drastically at levels 54 and up, but I'm doubting it.  All I ask is, please please give my paladin something...anything which might make my pally fun/entertaining.</span></p></div><p>Message Edited by Geekyone on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:07 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I think this is just tanks in general; they are rather boring to play. I know with most of my non-tank characters, if I die, I feel like I can try again with a different strategy. This isn't the case most of the time with my tanks. If a mob can kill me handly, it'll always get the best of me no matter how diligent I seem to be with my stuns / stiffle / interupts.

[Xrazor]

<div></div><p>To me I think it just should be possible with all characters to at least be able to solo ^^^ single green heroic...just for the 1/1000 chance to get something good....that is all I am asking for...I like grouping but don't always have the time....just would like to be able to do something, other than kill things that can't drop anything.</p><p> </p>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><p><span>I love playing my Paladin.  Not so much for the fact that he is any good, or fun to play, but because of what a Paladin is.  He represents what is good and just.  The pinnacle of a virtuous warrior.  I like being the good guy.</span><span></span></p><p><span><font color="#3333ff">Totally agree.</font></span></p><p><span>Paladin has always been the first character I roll in MMO's and this is true with EQ2.  My Pally is level 53, and during that time, I have played every other class in the game, albeit a few of the mages classes, they are fun, but I like being in the middle of stuff.</span></p><p><span><font color="#3333ff">ok</font></span></p><p><span>Let me tell you...Paladins are BORING!  I mean in a mean sort of "I'm never going to accomplish much" type of boring.  No special moves, no attacks that require me to stun, move around back, stealth then stabbity.  No fun abilities to use at just the right time.  No flurry of attacks that are awe inspiring to watch.  The worlds worst ever Heroic Opp. (Taunting while solo?!  Whoever thought of that is dumber than a rock.) No big hits, no great hit points, no great abilities to speak of.  (Please do not mention LoH it is a joke, it has been severely overnerfed.) </span></p><p><span><font color="#3333ff">Ok, you don't like playing the class...that doesn't mean they suck.</font></span></p><p><span>This is all in a group too, outside of a group Paladins are almost as bad as a Templar solo.  At least a Templar in a group is actively paying attention.  I in a group or out of one, I do the same repetitive attack combos.  Then four levels later I wake up to choose a special ability.</span></p><p><span><font color="#3333ff">If you are bored soloing, you aren't fighting the appropriate mobs. At level 52, I remember fighting in the Twin Tears near the water. I was going toe to toe with a yellow, even con (No arrows up or down) dog when some goof thought he would be funny and trained 2 groups of 3 dogs on me (They were white, 2-3 down arrows) and I thought...hmmm...run or fight....FIGHT!! I have to tell you there is nothing more satisfying than derailing a train while the guilty party looks on in disbelief hehe. Anyhow...fight tougher mobs and I guarantee you won't be bored.</font></span></p><p><span><font color="#3333ff">In groups, I am usually tanking so I definitely have to pay attention there.</font></span></p><p><span>Any of you that have played a pally and love them for what they are, you know my pain.  Maybe things change drastically at levels 54 and up, but I'm doubting it.  All I ask is, please please give my paladin something...anything which might make my pally fun/entertaining.</span></p><p><span><font color="#3333ff">Again...try fighting harder mobs.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></span></p></div><p>Message Edited by Geekyone on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:07 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Message Edited by LordQuaymar on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:48 PM</span></p>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ArgonDestroyer wrote:<div></div><p>To me I think it just should be possible with all characters to at least be able to solo ^^^ single green heroic...just for the 1/1000 chance to get something good....that is all I am asking for...I like grouping but don't always have the time....just would like to be able to do something, other than kill things that can't drop anything.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>I solo green Heroic ^^^'s all the time. Currently, I fight the Sirens in Sinking Sands...have been since 51...they are 44 - 46 heroic ^^^'s.

[Dasein]

<div></div><p></p><hr>You are correct, even I just made that mistake...it is pertinant essense, I use to be able to fight ^^ stuff and give a good show with it but now it has a 5 minute recast time....used to be seconds and now I dont even use it anymore...oh well, the only good spell gone.<hr>The Penitent Sacriment line has always had a 5 minute recast timer. Paladin healing has not been nerfed at all - in fact, we've gotten a group heal and the reduced timer on LoH, so our healing capacity has only gotten better over time.<p>However, wards are very useful for soloers, and it took me a bit to figure out how best to use wards, but now I can focus on offense and keep myself warded almost the entire fight and thus take virtually no damage. The trick is to utilize stuns to give yourself a few second window to cast your ward, and make sure you keep at least one stun ablity available at all times so you're not stuck waiting for an ability to refresh.</p><p>Switching stances is also important - while waiting for your big attacks to refresh, switch to a defensive stance, then when you're ready for a burst of damage, switch to offensive stance, hit with a stun -> nuke -> stun -> nuke combo.</p><p>AAs add another bit of complexity to the equation, but I've found that the Stamina line (which requires a mace/hammer weapon) offers the best all around benefits, but you should also dump some points into the Intelligence line just for the Int boost, since at 8 points of Int for 1 AA, it's the best overall value and helps keep your spell DPS up even when in defensive stance. The stamina line is particularly good since both the Screamin mace and Scepter of Rahotep are good solo pally weapons, and will work with this line. The bonus to melee crits also helps boost DPS, especially when fighting against low-green heroics, since you'll crit a lot more against lower con mobs.</p>

[Bayne]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jenoy wrote:<div></div>I think this is just tanks in general; they are rather boring to play. I know with most of my non-tank characters, if I die, I feel like I can try again with a different strategy. This isn't the case most of the time with my tanks. If a mob can kill me handly, it'll always get the best of me no matter how diligent I seem to be with my stuns / stiffle / interupts.<hr></blockquote>Try a monk <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Lord Montague]

<div></div>The problem I think is obvious that he has not tapped into his full potential and utilized the powers of the Dark Side ...err...umm...oops, wrong genre.

[Geekyone]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:<div> </div><div>Second, LoH hasn't been nerfed. The only change I amaware of was lowering the reuse timer from 30 minutes to 15, which is the opposite of a nerf.</div><hr></blockquote>I meant a nerf from what LoH was in EQ1.  I might be mistaken, but my LoH in EQ1 was a complete heal. <font color="#336600"> <font size="1">(No one mention it was a once a day reuse timer, don't wanna give SoE any good ideas)</font></font>

[Geekyone]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lord Montague wrote:<div></div>The problem I think is obvious that he has not tapped into his full potential and utilized the powers of the Dark Side ...err...umm...oops, wrong genre.<hr></blockquote><p>Never, the dark side will never take me.</p><p>Actually I have a 30 SK....man are they fun to play.</p><p>But like I said, I like playing the roll of a Paladin.  I like the feel of the intematading(sp?) force of a large barbarian in full metal armor.  I look sweet.  But there is only so many times I can inspect myself during fights.  And I rarely rarely solo with him...I would slip into a coma, I'm quite sure.  I got him up to 53, cause I like to be the character of a paladin, but for heavens sake, they are a boring class.  I have fun with him, because I'm good at having fun, but I want more love for my pally so I can love him more.  I'm not saying paladins suck or they are a bad class, just a very boring class and that sucks.</p>

[YeldarbSpiritbla]

<div>Number 1: This is the wrong forum. Try Paladin forum if you have problems with your class or need suggestions. In this case, it's definitely the player, not the toon.</div><div> </div><div>Number 2: I have several toons, and the Paladin is definitely the strongest out of Swashbuckler, Fury, Conjuror (stronger soloer), and Monk. Don't get me wrong, they are all great classes and lots of fun, but the Paladin could get out of some stickier situations, and even take down stronger enemies than any of them. (Except Conjuror, who is definitely better at soloing, but not as useful to a group)</div><div> </div><div>At 54, my Paladin could solo stuff my other toons at higher levels couldn't do.</div><div> </div><div>LOH is BETTER than before. The ward is MUCH BETTER than before. The essence used to be useful, but after LU13, it's a waste of space. As far as healing, he has gotten better. As far as fighting, he's about the same. Against multiple enemies my Paladin EXPLODES with usefulness. Sorry you're having so much trouble.</div>

[Zoren Northwood]

Could not disagree more <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  What's great about the paladin is the sheer number of tools at your tanking or off-tanking disposal.  Our ward and heals make tanking a bit more active; our two hate siphons allow for more DPS; our three "oh crap!" abilities (LOH, rescue, and rez) are great in a pinch and can save a whole raid; and our AE dps isn't bad at all (we have four out-of-encounter AEs and one encounter AE, which is not too shabby).  Yeah, our weak point is definitely single-target DPS, but that's boring anyway -- I'd much rather ward myself, pull six mobs, turn on Consecrate, and burn 'em all to death.  You make more money that way too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Xrazor]

<div></div>Now that I have gotten rid of my non imbued fabled stuff and went to imbues, I can now kill ^^^ heroics but the pally still is lacking compared to other characters I have....there is just something exciting missing and I think it is there really is only one fighting style, same swings over and over.

[Xrazor]

<div></div>WOW, I must of done something wrong with my pally....if I cast half the stuff you are talking about I am out of power...lol

[PurpleLlama]

Let me guess, your gear totally focuses on DPS augmenting stuff to the neglect of all else?<div></div>

[Cozumel]

Wow...when I group..there's 2 classes I prefer to tank for me... Guardians and Pallys... The rest are sub-par.Go figure..-Cozwiz, 70 Warlock<div></div>

[ke'la]

<div>Wow...when I group..there's 2 classes I prefer to tank for me... Guardians and Pallys... The rest are sub-par.Go figure..-Cozwiz, 70 Warlock</div><div><hr></div><div> Spoken like the True master of AoEs that Warlocks are. Next to Guardians, Pallys are just about the best class there is at holding agro from Multiple MoBs(even out of encounter ones as heals generate hate from everyone(ask a Templar)). While as a Monk I can Tank single Target encounters until the cows come home with out much diffculty, I find that we can't hold a candle to what a Pally or Guardian can do on Multi-MoB fights.</div><div> </div><div>BTW, though Amends on your Monk and have the Monk Turn on thier hate Proc and you will almost never loose agro again.</div>

[selch]

<div>TIPS & TRICKS:</div><div> </div><div>Not just paladin, all fighter classes has to taunt for Heroic Opportunities and having very same names and effects on HO's. So as conclusion, this is not Paladin.</div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Geekyone]

<div>To those of you that have mis-read what I have said above. </div><div> </div><div>I do not think paladins are weak or not useful.  They are a good stong class.</div><div> </div><div>What my entire post was about is... they are boring to play, and even more so to watch while you play.</div><div> </div><div>I've comparied my pally to my Monk, SK, Assassian, Warlock, Necro, Fury, Ranger, Mystic and watching them do their moves or abilites and what you have to do to stay involved with those classes = fun game play.</div><div> </div><div>Paladins are my favorite class, but watching him and playing him is quite boring, IMO, comparied to every other class in the game.</div><div> </div><div>I've had fun with him at times too, but in the long run, our lack of stylish combat arts is a dull experiance.</div><div> </div><div>I don't think paladins are weak, or in need of nerfage.   Just in need of some style. </div><div> </div>

[selch]

<div></div><p>Tried different type of weapons?</p><p>Some weapons certainly have much impressive animations, some suck.</p><p> </p>

[two0fus]

<div></div>while reading thru this post i was glad to see someone in the land of EQ realizes how good a pally as a tank is when i used to play my conj a lot only 1 class could consistantly hold aggro off my pet (conj air pet way over aggroing chain taunting tanksworse nightmare) that was a pally while there dps is lets just say slightly lackin witch doesnt matter in a good group there aggro control if played right can be awsome as far as soloin a pally goes while fights are longer then other classes they can be solo machines at 24 was soloin names in SH at 32 soloin lot of the names in RoV and im sure will continue ive seen many a pally solo names in t6 zones as far as borring to play goes thats an opinion and everyone has there own opinion so hard to trash someone for his/her personal tastes

[Brigh]

Hex dolls are your friend.

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><div></div><p>To the OP, I feel your pain.</p><p>Level 55 Paladin, retired, wanted so badly to play a paladin, pushed through to level 55, and finally gave up.</p><p>We can solo, at least faster than a Templar (Yes, I have both, LU#21 actually placed paladin in the last place IMO), which means we basically bore the mobs to death.</p><p>My Paladin since Live Nerf 13 has been and remains totally useless(yes, i have made 15 levels, enduring exrutiating pain the entire time).  I know some people are able to play the class and get results, although I wonder how much solo they really do.  I was always about 80% of the time solo.</p><p>I know many of you are not having issues, bully for you.  Between interrupts/fizzles/ and the serious xp nerf that starts at 50 (I can get maybe 3% an hour chain pulling sand giants in PoF, after a couple of hours of this your mind is just numb from sheer boredom), I can't achieve anything worth xp solo, and getting groups, vieing for that 1 tank slot in PUG is next to impossible against any other tank class.   You are just taking a dps or helear spot to most people.  I don't mind having the lowest hp, if indeed we had the highest power pool, I don't find that to be true.</p><p>If you are serious about pursueing it, upgrade spell/combat arts to at least adept 3, get good armor (legendary or better at 50) and jewelry, and give it a whirl.  I didn't find this to help, but many say they have.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by CoLD MeTaL on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>CoLD MeTaL wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>To the OP, I feel your pain.</p><p>Level 55 Paladin, retired, wanted so badly to play a paladin, pushed through to level 55, and finally gave up.</p><p>We can solo, at least faster than a Templar (Yes, I have both, LU#21 actually placed paladin in the last place IMO), which means we basically bore the mobs to death.</p><p><font color="#3333ff">Hmm....the other day, I was soloing in SS and nearby was a Zerker of the same level soloing as well. I pulled a mob at the same time he did just to see which mob died first and mine dropped about 1 second after his. So I did the same thing several times just to see what happened and he always killed his faster but not by more than a few seconds. To me, that isn't too bad.</font></p><p>My Paladin since Live Nerf 13 has been and remains totally useless(yes, i have made 15 levels, enduring exrutiating pain the entire time).  I know some people are able to play the class and get results, although I wonder how much solo they really do.  I was always about 80% of the time solo.</p><p><font color="#3333ff">Totally useless?? Perhaps in your mind but not imho. I solo 90% of the time and I get tells constantly asking if I want a group...yep, that's useless alright.</font></p><p>I know many of you are not having issues, bully for you.  Between interrupts/fizzles/ and the serious xp nerf that starts at 50 (I can get maybe 3% an hour chain pulling sand giants in PoF, after a couple of hours of this your mind is just numb from sheer boredom), I can't achieve anything worth xp solo,</p><p><font color="#3333ff">Huh? I leveled from 50 - 52 in less than 2 days just goofing around doing city quests for SP and guild exp and the other numerous quests in the zone all solo.</font></p><p>and getting groups, vieing for that 1 tank slot in PUG is next to impossible against any other tank class.   You are just taking a dps or helear spot to most people.  I don't mind having the lowest hp, if indeed we had the highest power pool, I don't find that to be true.</p><p><font color="#3333ff">Must be a server thing. I get asked to tank for groups all the time..../shrug.</font></p><p>If you are serious about pursueing it, upgrade spell/combat arts to at least adept 3, get good armor (legendary or better at 50) and jewelry, and give it a whirl.  I didn't find this to help, but many say they have.</p><p><font color="#3333ff">I'm wearing Cobalt armor and most of my spells are only Adept 1's and I have no trouble at all.</font></p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by CoLD MeTaL on <span class="date_text">03-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:15 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>LordQuaymar wrote:<div></div><blockquote>... snipped ...</blockquote><hr></blockquote><p>I am happy for you.</p><p>less than 3% per hour of chain pulling orange ^^^ heroics with full vitality, just put a bad taste in my mouth.</p><p>less than 1% for white con quests.</p><p>And I can play him, and I can tank (scornfeather's etc.) successfully, but (for me since Live Nerf 13) he just isn't worth taking out.  He was the favorite of my 7 characters, now he is a box mule harvester.</p><p>anyway, I am glad your experience is different.</p><p>On an upnote, I rerolled a warlock and am loving it.</p>

[Tasmai]

<div>Heh, people talk like it takes skill to hold agro with a pally. All they do is put amends on a dps class and forget about it. Want a real test of how good a tank you are? Play a shadowkngiht for more then 20 levels.</div>

[Zoren Northwood]

<p><i>less than 3% per hour of chain pulling orange ^^^ heroics with full vitality, just put a bad taste in my mouth.</i></p><p><i>less than 1% for white con quests.</i></p><p>You and I are not playing the same game.  I'd get 3% in about 10 minutes.</p><div></div>

[Lord_Quaymar]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zoren Northwood wrote:<p><i>less than 3% per hour of chain pulling orange ^^^ heroics with full vitality, just put a bad taste in my mouth.</i></p><p><i>less than 1% for white con quests.</i></p><p>You and I are not playing the same game.  I'd get 3% in about 10 minutes.</p><div></div><hr></blockquote>That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Rhianni]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>LordQuaymar wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Zoren Northwood wrote:<p><i>less than 3% per hour of chain pulling orange ^^^ heroics with full vitality, just put a bad taste in my mouth.</i></p><p><i>less than 1% for white con quests.</i></p><p>You and I are not playing the same game.  I'd get 3% in about 10 minutes.</p><div></div><hr></blockquote>That's exactly what I was thinking.<hr></blockquote><p>Its Coldmetal is what I was thinking so I wasnt too surprised.</p><p> </p><p>OP: when you title a thread 'paladins suck' you are in fact talking about your ideas that paladins sucking.  Sorry that you didnt have fun. I love my paladin and have fun. I dont think they suck.  Try a diff class.</p>

[Dasein]

<div></div><hr>less than 3% per hour of chain pulling orange ^^^ heroics with full vitality, just put a bad taste in my mouth.<hr>I don't see how this is possible. Currently, at level 65, a heroic yellow mob in the 67-68 range gives about .2% - .3% xp, so it takes roughly 3-4 encounters per full %, which amounts to about 10-15 minutes, depending ont he volume of mobs. At lower levels, you should be getting more - I'd guess about .4% per kill - which would give you a substantially faster rate than 3%/hour unless you're pulling very slowly or have a lot of debt to pay off.

[CoLD MeTaL]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Caswydian wrote:<div></div><hr>less than 3% per hour of chain pulling orange ^^^ heroics with full vitality, just put a bad taste in my mouth.<hr>I don't see how this is possible. Currently, at level 65, a heroic yellow mob in the 67-68 range gives about .2% - .3% xp, so it takes roughly 3-4 encounters per full %, which amounts to about 10-15 minutes, depending ont he volume of mobs. At lower levels, you should be getting more - I'd guess about .4% per kill - which would give you a substantially faster rate than 3%/hour unless you're pulling very slowly or have a lot of debt to pay off.<hr></blockquote><p>No debt, we didn't die in three hours,  full vitality, tank is pulling the next group of sand giants as we 'finish off this group'.  I am not sure the level of the mobs, sand giants in PoF next to djinn island, we were all 53-55 in level and there were 6 of us.</p><p>most I have ever gotten is 6% in an hour of this.  But that was on a 50% potion.  I know that each giant was worth less than 0.1%, ie it took 2-3 to make my UI kick over 0.1%.</p><p>I thought this was 'normal', and I was totally disgusted.</p><p> </p>

[crowell00]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><p><span>Paladins really do suck.</span></p><hr></div></blockquote><p>This is a joke right? I love being a paladin.Sure we have mediocre DPS,but we are Paladins FFS.We can throw down some emergency healing,saves and revives(while pulling aggro of the skirt wearing fool at the end of a beat-down at the same time). Who doesn't want that in a group? We can keep aggro very well in almost all situations ( I am sure I will eventually find myself in a group where I lose it and can't get it back,but it hasn't happened yet).</p><p>We can also solo pretty durn well too if you change your playstyle and gear to suit soloing.</p><p>If you love playing a paladin,stick with it.I find playing my paladin no more difficult or tedious than any other class (except for when I need to track something down).</p>

[WulfricGreyBeard]

I love my Pally and it is still my favorite by far. I like guardian second. Why do people think Pally's suck? The same reason people think Defilers and Mystics suck. They take skill. Pally is not a summoner where you send your pet and just lob spells at the mob and hope you kill it before it kills the pet. We have a wide range of options. We can ward, heal, take aggro in a group, buff a tank, have offensive spells and some combat arts. Pallies in a way are the old concept of the bard. A jack of all trades and a master of none. We can not heal as well templars, we can not ward as well as shamans, our spells are not strong as a mage, our combat arts are not the damage of a zerker, we do not have the area taunts of a guardian, and our buffs are not as good as a troubador. However, if you learn how to use your tools the combination can be very powerful. It takes skill you can't just pop in and in 5 minutes be an expert pally. It is one of those finess classes that takes real skill to play. It is not like Predator, Zerker, or Summoner where you just charge and attack and let your proc spells support you. You have to really learn when to use what spell. Sometimes healing is better. Sometimes you want to use more wards. Sometimes save power for attacks. Definately not like my zerserker who puts on his buffs and starts clicking buttons. Much more strategy is needed. A pally's strategy is much more than do I choose the offensive or defensive stance. Which for some classes is the big choice.Defilers, Paladins, enchanters, and rogues are not for everyone. These are the classes where they do not have one power that excells but you have to learn how to effectively use your powers in combination and the learning curve is a bit steeper than something like Warrior, Cleric, Rogue, or enchanter.  I might even throw brawlers in but they have fewer options to master.<div></div>

[WulfricGreyBeard]

"I hear ya brother...we got nothing....I mean I just started a mage and he's got more pazzaaazzz at level 7 then my 41 pally."So you like an easy playstyle. You prefer to push the same 2 or 3 buttons and drop somehting while it is bound or get killed quickly. Fine but it is playstyle. Pally's take complex strategy and skill. Mages need simple strategy. I know I have a warlock. It is freeze and hope you kill with DOT and nukes before it can hit you because if it does your little cloth wearing butt is the MOB's lunch.I prefer to be able to have time to run if it is apparent I can't kill something. I like having to make spilt second decisions as to ward, heal, or attack. My warlock only has part of the pally's strategy that is to use DOT's then nukes. Pally's only start with throwing the DOT then the damage spells. They have to heal, ward, and attack when soloing. In a group you sometimes have to ward others and back up heal while you tank. You have to make the decision do I tank or do I buff the tank. A mage will also be in the back casting the same old spells over and over. For a pally no two encounters will ever be identical.I am not downing you. Some people like to sit back and nuke and push the same 3 or 4 buttons over and over. I do not.<div></div>

[RSta]

<div></div><div><span><blockquote><hr>ArgonDestroyer wrote:<div></div><p>To me I think it just should be possible with all characters to at least be able to solo ^^^ single green heroic...just for the 1/1000 chance to get something good....that is all I am asking for...I like grouping but don't always have the time....just would like to be able to do something, other than kill things that can't drop anything.</p><hr></blockquote>If you can't its a matter of two things:Gear (armor/weapons/spells/potions)StrategyAt 50 I took down a 52^^^ raptor (cobalt armor, fabled shield, str potion, vanadium jeweler, cambric dolls), it took everything I had, some luck, and I was red when done, even white ^^^ are a challenge and are a toss up, blues doable, green ^^^'s are pretty much back to back (occasionaly pwr regen).BTW the debuff taunt is a key, make sure to keep it up and running (look at the mob) and hit him with divine and hit with the stuns.</span></div><p>Message Edited by RStahl on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:53 AM</span></p>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tasmai wrote:<div>Heh, people talk like it takes skill to hold agro with a pally. All they do is put amends on a dps class and forget about it. Want a real test of how good a tank you are? Play a shadowkngiht for more then 20 levels.</div><hr></blockquote>Seriously give me a break....if you think you can still just put Amends on one dps and do nothing you are wrong.  There is more to aggro then just amends on 1 dps.  You have DPS and Debuffs, we have aggro control....deal with it.</span><div></div>

[Geekyone]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>crowell00 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><p><span>Paladins really do suck.</span></p><hr></div></blockquote><p>This is a joke right? I love being a paladin.Sure we have mediocre DPS,but we are Paladins FFS...etc. etc. etc...</p><hr></blockquote><p>Did you read my posts not just the title? </p><p>I never said I want more DPS or more abilities, or that our abilities are bad....</p><p>I said suck but I should have said boring.   I like my pally, in fights he doesn't suck, he's good, I'm good...I don't lose aggro (to often)...my post was about how a paladin plays.  IMO they play very boring.  I don't know if you've tried other classes or races, but holy flip, they are very amusing to watch do their moves.  They have nice combat arts that are the entertainment of the fight.</p><p>A paladin has nothing (from what I've seen in 53 levels)  The best looking thing that ever happens to a Paladin is the HO that gratns us Heros Armor.</p><p>I just want more love for my Paladin in the art department.   All you guys love your paladins so much I don't see why your fighting with me...other then you've mis interpetted my post and think I'm bashing paladins, but I'm not...I'm trying to get us more love, and if you trying to stop me, then you are pally hater! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Leawyn]

<div></div>Get a bo staff, you can get the kung fu moves too! I got the Staff of Arresting from SoS and love to use it cuz I can do funky moves and flip it all around and look bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!

[Wulfborne]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><p><span>*snip*</span></p><p><span>Let me tell you...Paladins are BORING!  I mean in a mean sort of "I'm never going to accomplish much" type of boring.  No special moves, no attacks that require me to stun, move around back, stealth then stabbity.  No fun abilities to use at just the right time.  No flurry of attacks that are awe inspiring to watch.  The worlds worst ever Heroic Opp. (Taunting while solo?!  Whoever thought of that is dumber than a rock.) No big hits, no great hit points, no great abilities to speak of.  (Please do not mention LoH it is a joke, it has been severely overnerfed.)  This is all in a group too, outside of a group Paladins are almost as bad as a Templar solo.  At least a Templar in a group is actively paying attention.  I in a group or out of one, I do the same repetitive attack combos.  Then four levels later I wake up to choose a special ability.</span></p><p><span></span>*snip*</p><hr></div></blockquote><p>I am not going to tell you that you are wrong. Different things excite different people. So what you find boring isn't what I would find boring and so on. However, I think you may just not have 'broken into your niche' for what the Paladin class is capable of.</p><p>We have special moves. Do we need to accomplish a series of attacks in order to use one of our skills? Not so much, but I'll promise you that if you complete some of these attacks in a certain order, your overall damage will be higher. A lot of your CAs are based on divine damage. You also happen to have a taunt with a divine debuff on it. Use the debuff first and all successive attacks will hit a bit harder. Also, it's been stated that attacks to the mob's back will hit harder... I can't confirm this, but I do know they won't ripost, parry or block from there. So if you really want to, hit one of our stuns (we have 3) and then run to his back. Oh look! We're scouts now! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As for special abilities to use at just the right time... Boy, you sure do need to time Castigate. But if you do that just right, BAM! Mobs will *not* be happy.</p><p>You want a flurry of attacks that are awesome to watch? break into the AE crowd. Anyone that ever plays with me knows I like to "create my own epic encounters". That is, I look and find multiple group encounters and pull them all at once. (You can get more crazy in a group, but I took to doing this solo in my mid-50's). Ward, consectate, then fire those AE's at will. Most people that watch me do this are awestruck, because they say there's no way in hell they could pull that off. Most tanks are single target optimized, and the classes that are awesome at ae (casters mostly) go splat if said mobs aren't held at a distance.</p><p>I think someone else addressed the HO issue you mentioned. Use your ae taunt to debuff divine, or pop that lvl 50 spell Decree (Brimstone at 70) to finish it off. We don't have super huge hits post LU13, but the Refusal of Faith line is still pretty nice, especially if you have debuffed vs divine and have good int for a massive wallop.</p><p> </p><p>Oh and if you are saying a group tank doesn't have to pay attention, then perhaps you would be better rerolling a different class. As a paladin you have to *constantly* watch EVERYONE in your group. Healers are human too and look away from their screens, or ninja afk at times... I cant tell you how many times that I've noticed an add, or popped that heal, or fired that Rescue off and barely saved the group from an ugly ugly wipe. EQ1 was mash-and-go for tanks. EQ2 actually requires you to have skill to be any good at it.</p><p> </p><p>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Paragon of Truth</p>

[Kinesthesia]

I won't go into how much I love playing my Paladin, but I do have something constructive to add.  Get to 55, and get Consecrate.  It's easily the most fun I've had.  Go into Living Tombs... pull the whole floor and just AE the bejesus out of everything.  If that doesn't make you smile... um, roll something else.<div></div>

[Jonaroth]

Yeah Consecrate is a ton of fun, but I think bezerkers didnt have to wait till 45 to do that, they could do that at lvl 10 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Nurta]

<div></div><div></div><p>It sucks that some of you are having a bad time playing a paladin <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>For me though, I love it.  I left the game for four months shortly after DoF came out.  Since coming back late January I have made 10 levels (62atm) and am having a freaking blast.  No, we're not perfect.  Yes, we have issues but we're doing ok, at least in my opinion.  No I can't solo orange singles or white or yellow heroics but I can do blue herocis and yellow singles if I am on my A game.  My gear isn't that great, I still have some cobalt but I'm still holding my own.  I don't raid much anymore I just log in an play but most of all have fun.  I find myself grouping allot and although I group with a monk and guardian or SK of similar levels my group mates want me to tank.  I think I do alright <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I don't have aggo issues usually if my group mates all understand how my taunts work.  I got 6 levels in the breeding grounds doing the heroics there by using this tactic.  In a group with a Ranger, a Monk, a Dirge, a Mystic, and either a Guardian or Wizard....I tossed Amends on the Ranger and let him pull and then use his aggro aversion CAs so the mob instantly comes to me.  If the monk goes all out she will pull aggro from me but she does not take damage as well as I do so she totally DPS's.  I never lose aggro to the healer or the wizard or the ranger or the dirge.  Our parses of damage have the Ranger doing 500+, Wizard just shy of 500, Monk doing between 300-400, then the dirge then me then healer.  Of course sometimes it fluncuates but the ranger always beats everyone and the healer is always last.  Just as it should be.  If I want to I can give the dirge a run for his money but my job is to taunt and keep the mob [Removed for Content] so that's what I do.  This has been the case since before LU21 and the numbers are the same after LU21.  I don't understand what rangers were complaining about but then I only ever group with one ranger so who knows.</p><p>Anyway I got those 6 levels in about 2.5 weeks with this group make up.  If anyone is looking for an xp spot I highly recommend Breeding Grounds in TT<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Fast pops, non-stop pulls = fast levels.  The loot sucks but who cares when you xp that fast?</p><p>Remember, it's a game though and if this isn't fun maybe another class will suit you more.  Once the devs started tweaking the classes and combat it started a cycle of endless tweaks.  We are not the same class i started in Nov '04 but I still love playing my pally and will continue to do so.  However, to hear that a monk can solo a ^^^ yellow mob makes me frankly upset.  But I'm sure the devs will fix it eventually if not oh well, I'll keep playing until it's no longer fun.</p><p>Best of luck to you all, I hope you find enjoyment in the game.</p><p> </p><p>EDIT: Guess it helps if I say where huh? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Nurta on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:28 AM</span></p>

[FieryFurnace]

<div></div><blockquote><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><p><span>Paladins really do suck.</span></p><hr></div><div> </div><div>Only if the price is right.</div></blockquote></blockquote>

[Luis Sypher]

<div></div><p>I was not going to post but after so much complaining about being nerfed i just had to say something.</p><p>1. DPS - before Desert of Flames I was out dpsing Assisins and Rangers, then we got nerfed. KoS came out i got a couple of new spells and hello I am toe to toe with the same lvl of wizards, always pretty proficient  in dps in a group when I am tanking or assisting with the mage, rogue, sumoner beating me.</p><p>2. Soloing -  I can solo all day and take down same lvl mobs ^^ with little or no problem...hit, stun, ward, stun, hit, heal.</p><p>3. Spells -  at lvl 70 i have about 6 (7 if you count doom judgement) AOE's, 4 heals, 1 ward, 2 debuffs, and 3 major stuns with knock back.</p><p>4. Agro -  now u want something to complain, complain about holding agro or finding creative ways to hold it. SK's Hold agro much better then we can, Amends was so nerfed, i went from 47% hate transfer to 41%. I use sigil everytime it pops up with an AOE and taunt with the best of them and i hold the agro but it gets lost more often then it want to.</p><p>I am never bored with my Paladin, I have a brigand and a swash and they are a blast, had a mezzer and a healer..omg shoot me in the head..hated every minute of it. </p><p>at level 60 we did Poet's palace without a healer, but  there were 3 pally's in the group..we took a little longer killing the mobs but it was done.</p><p>Now the new spells we get from lvl 61 to 70..Useless, castigate is not very good at all unless your soloing and the mobs dont interrupt you because it takes so long to cast. but if your grouped with a good healer, there are never any dots on you to heal or take off or the mobs goes down so fast why use it...so i never use it unless i want to see the pretty lights and make everyone in the group ooohhh and ahhhh over it.</p><p>Palatine, level 70 Paladin of Kithicor</p>

[Turb]

ColdMetal is doing something badly wrong.I solo'd in the Clefts zone for at most two hours last night as a L50 pally, mobs white or yellow to me, had a lot of fun and made over 30% of a level. Also made some nice AA points from the solo nameds in there.I am enjoying my pally a lot. He can do things my alts cannot.

[mortem]

<span><blockquote><hr>FieryFurnace wrote:<div></div><blockquote><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><p><span>Paladins really do suck.</span></p><hr></div><div> </div><div>Only if the price is right.</div></blockquote></blockquote><hr></blockquote>lol. that made my afternoon</span><div></div>

[robusticus]

<div></div>I think we need to be nerfed again, there are way to many fanboi pallies out there willing to brag about there prowess.

[Leawyn]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div>I think we need to be nerfed again, there are way to many fanboi pallies out there willing to brag about there prowess.<hr></blockquote><p>:smileyvery-happy: ROFL :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>Just because someone knows how to play their class well doesn't mean they are a fanboi. There are many others who cannot do what those few who have posted say they can. I am among those <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I admit, I'm a crappy soloer, I suck at pvp, but I rock in groups (both small and full groups), and I'm a welcome addition to any raid, be it as a main tank, back up tank, group healer, buffer, or whatever other role I happen to fill.</p><p>Message Edited by Leawyn on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:16 PM</span></p>

[robusticus]

<div></div><div>Speaking of pvp, anybody ever dueled another roughly equal pally?  I would highly recommend it if you've got the 2 or 3 hours to spare, a pretty good indication of how we are doing... it's like a pillow fight...</div><div> </div><div>"Live Nerf #13"... [Removed for Content]</div>

[Kale]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><p>Did you read my posts not just the title? </p><p>I never said I want more DPS or more abilities, or that our abilities are bad....</p><p>I said suck but I should have said <b>boring</b>.   I like my pally, in fights he doesn't suck, he's good, I'm good...I don't lose aggro (to often)...my post was about how a paladin plays.  IMO they play very boring.  I don't know if you've tried other classes or races, but holy flip, they are very amusing to watch do their moves.  They have nice combat arts that are the entertainment of the fight.</p><p>A paladin has nothing (from what I've seen in 53 levels)  The best looking thing that ever happens to a Paladin is the HO that gratns us Heros Armor.</p><p>I just want more love for my Paladin in the art department.   All you guys love your paladins so much I don't see why your fighting with me...other then you've mis interpetted my post and think I'm bashing paladins, but I'm not...I'm trying to get us more love, and if you trying to stop me, then you are pally hater! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>I think everyone <b>did </b>misread your post. Hell, I misread it initially. Then I continued down the thread, contemplate what I was going to write as a retort, when I got to this post.Now I get your point, and <b>you are 100% correct</b>.I absolutely love being a Paladin in EQ2. I think it's the best Paladin I've seen to date in a MMOG. In my opinion SOE finally got the Paladin correct. We have a huge toolset to work with and being a MT in an active group is a blast as a Paladin.With all that said, you are corret - visually speaking, we're <b>boring as heck</b>. We get nothing in terms of great animations or unique moves. We stand there and swing, and our swings aren't even very creative. Our best damage spell, the Refusal line, throws a mediocre sized translucent purple ball at the enemy. Whooopty-do.But in the end, I don't mind too much. It doesn't dishearten me because our class is a blast to play. Nine times out of ten I'm far more engaged in the situation of the moment - determining the next course of action than I am with looking at my animations. Come to think of it, the only time I'm busy watching my character and not something else on the screen is when I'm soloing, and soloing is so boring I hardly ever do it.</span></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><div>Speaking of pvp, anybody ever dueled another roughly equal pally?  I would highly recommend it if you've got the 2 or 3 hours to spare, a pretty good indication of how we are doing... it's like a pillow fight...</div><div> </div><div>"Live Nerf #13"... [Removed for Content]</div><hr></blockquote>Worst duel ever - paladin vs templar</span></div>

[robusticus]

<div></div>Yeah, I refuse to duel them.  A pillow fight too but they got smaller, throw pillows whereas we have normal bed ones.  Nothing quite like going all out with holy avenging rage on someone only to have their health go steadily up with each hit.

[MoD1133]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><p><span>I love playing my Paladin.  Not so much for the fact that he is any good, or fun to play, but because of what a Paladin is.  He represents what is good and just.  The pinnacle of a virtuous warrior.  I like being the good guy.</span><span></span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Paladin has always been the first character I roll in MMO's and this is true with EQ2.  My Pally is level 53, and during that time, I have played every other class in the game, albeit a few of the mages classes, they are fun, but I like being in the middle of stuff.</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Let me tell you...Paladins are BORING!  I mean in a mean sort of "I'm never going to accomplish much" type of boring.  No special moves, no attacks that require me to stun, move around back, stealth then stabbity.  No fun abilities to use at just the right time.  No flurry of attacks that are awe inspiring to watch.  The worlds worst ever Heroic Opp. (Taunting while solo?!  Whoever thought of that is dumber than a rock.) No big hits, no great hit points, no great abilities to speak of.  (Please do not mention LoH it is a joke, it has been severely overnerfed.)  This is all in a group too, outside of a group Paladins are almost as bad as a Templar solo.  At least a Templar in a group is actively paying attention.  I in a group or out of one, I do the same repetitive attack combos.  Then four levels later I wake up to choose a special ability.</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Any of you that have played a pally and love them for what they are, you know my pain.  Maybe things change drastically at levels 54 and up, but I'm doubting it.  All I ask is, please please give my paladin something...anything which might make my pally fun/entertaining.</span></p></div><p>Message Edited by Geekyone on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:07 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>A pally is boring to you because your obviously a noob and you dont knwo what a pally is suppose to do.</p><p>You clearly dont know the function of a paladin, and its sad that after 53 levels you still dont understand what a paladin is suppose to do. We are not suppose to hit hard because we are not zerkers or SKs, and we are certainly not brawlers. We can almost tank as good as guardians on raids, and we can tank equally  well as guardians in groups.</p><p>I agree Pallys cant solo as well as we could before DOF went live with LU13 was it? but we are not as terrible as you are trying to make us look, i can solo just fine as a paladin.</p><p>Even though pallys do not have great hit points we can still use our wards to make up for it, plus our heals.</p><p>You want us to tell you how to make your class fun for you? We probably can't because your a joke who doesnt know how to play a paladin at all after 53 levels.</p><p>Thanks for the good laugh....</p><p>Message Edited by MoD1133 on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:42 PM</span></p>

[Geekyone]

<div></div><div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>MoD1133 wrote:</p><p>A pally is boring to you because your obviously a noob and you dont knwo what a pally is suppose to do.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>Good job for you.  You tried to flame me, insult me and belittle me, all at the same time misinterpreting my entire post.  Read all of my posts, come back and try again to make yourself look intelligent.</div><div> </div><div>Read it for what it says, not what you <em>think</em> I'm saying.</div>

[Jaddenstar]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>MoD1133 wrote:</p><p>A pally is boring to you because your obviously a noob and you dont knwo what a pally is suppose to do.</p><p>You clearly dont know the function of a paladin, and its sad that after 53 levels you still dont understand what a paladin is suppose to do. We are not suppose to hit hard because we are not zerkers or SKs, and we are certainly not brawlers. We can almost tank as good as guardians on raids, and we can tank equally  well as guardians in groups.</p><p>I agree Pallys cant solo as well as we could before DOF went live with LU13 was it? but we are not as terrible as you are trying to make us look, i can solo just fine as a paladin.</p><p>Even though pallys do not have great hit points we can still use our wards to make up for it, plus our heals.</p><p>You want us to tell you how to make your class fun for you? We probably can't because your a joke who doesnt know how to play a paladin at all after 53 levels.</p><p>Thanks for the good laugh....</p><p>Message Edited by MoD1133 on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:42 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>To all fellow pallys:  Where do these [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s come from?  I was enjoying this thread until Sir Master God of Paladins joined in.  I might suggest a class in Reading Comprehension for people like this.</p><p>To the OP,  I agree with you 100 percent.  Pally's are boring to play, but I wouldn't change classes with anybody else.  One thing I like to do is make different emotes for different situations and hot key them, like pulling, or winning a battle.  It spices things up a bit.</p><p>Also I pick a mob that beats me solo, but I could tell I would have a chance at it with better equipment and or tactics.  For example, the named assassin in The Hidden Cache instance (the Master Thief, I believe).  Once I beat him,  I beat him a few times more for good measure.  Then when I level, I pick a different mob.  Kinda of like a personal goal.  Works for me and is fun.</p><p>Good Luck.</p><p>Message Edited by Jaddenstar on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:34 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Jaddenstar on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:35 PM</span></p>

[Hamervelder]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Tasmai wrote:<div>Heh, people talk like it takes skill to hold agro with a pally. All they do is put amends on a dps class and forget about it. Want a real test of how good a tank you are? Play a shadowkngiht for more then 20 levels.</div><hr></blockquote>Seriously give me a break....if you think you can still just put Amends on one dps and do nothing you are wrong.  There is more to aggro then just amends on 1 dps.  You have DPS and Debuffs, we have aggro control....deal with it.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I dunno mate.  I slap Amends on whomever does the highest DPS, taunt once in a while, and don't have to do much else.  I've also had superb success by putting amends on the berzerker in the group, and then having that person taunt their butt off.</div>

[MoD1133]

<div>its simple, if you dont like playing your class and are bored, then why are you still playing it and telling the paladins that do have fun playing there class and and know how to play it well, that "Paladins really do suck"??</div>

[crowell00]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><blockquote> </blockquote><p>Did you read my posts not just the title? </p><p>I never said I want more DPS or more abilities, or that our abilities are bad....</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><p>I read and understood your post.Paladins are viisually boring to play and the fact that they can do just about everything but not too well can lead to a sense of unfufillment.But we have a lot of abilites and that allows us to fill many roles in game.</p><p>If you truely enjoy everything that being a paladin imples,go with it,have fun.I do.  Be the do-gooder.Refuse to group with those evil types.Help out the righteous and smite evil. I have [Removed for Content] off soo many groupmates because my Paladin will always try to do the right thing.Others have just said"huh?".Others have even found my paladin fun to play with.</p><p>Cheering on a mob that is putting the smackdown on an evil character is one of my favorite past times.I have recieved many a hatefilled tell for it.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Anavron Ta]

Mod1133 - READ the whole post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<div></div>

[demolition tank]

<div></div><p><font color="#ffffcc">Hey all,</font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc"> </font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc">I am really happy to see a lot of real people who play paladins posting here. I normally don’t even post on forums because there is always such a flood of fan boys to say any and everything to make you think that any particular class is the most uber be all end off of everything and you suck as a person if you don’t think so too! Paladins are not perfect and uber and there is more then one thing wrong with them. They do have their up points but they defiantly have more downs then ups. </font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc"> </font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc">I currently have a 56 paladin on the Nag server, I might trade my paladin card in for a guardian card if I could because it seems like I do nothing but tank all the time, and my agro slips constantly when I have DD’s who are 2-3 levels higher then me in the team. But at the same time there is some crazy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] only a paladin could pull off, like solo healing your self while rezing the main healer so he can get back in business. </font><font color="#ffffcc"><span> </span></font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc"> </font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc">Now, paladin DPS is so horrible I really don’t even know where to start. Hitting all my moves with a 45 damage 1h weapon I am coming in last or next to last place on the damage phraser. This sucks for pvp, and the fact that paladins suck in general does not escape the population of the PVP Nag server. </font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc"> </font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc">As a lot of the people here have noted, paladins are really great at tanking. However, sense we suck really hardcore at everything else, no one plays them, and this goes for most tank classes. So, when ever I get online, I get spammed for teams because there are so few tanks. </font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc"> </font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc">I am thinking with the PVP equipment from the PVP venders around 70, I will have mad DPS combined with my defensive abilities which will cure my woes as a paladin. </font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc"> </font></p><p><font color="#ffffcc">Only time will tell, but I wouldn’t hold my breath for anything to change. I suppose I could organize a tanking strike ( all 5 of us, lol!! ) on the nag server effectively shutting down raiding and xp teams doing anything but blue / green grinding, but I have a feeling it would be more trouble then it’s worth.</font></p><div></div>

[Cabler]

<div></div><p>Guys, I have been playing Paladins since 1 month after EQ1 launch and the day of EQ2 launch.  You have to use every skill given you, every slot (whats in your range slot?), carry 2 totems, use the best player made armor, weapons and gear, use the strategies that people are posting here (because they work), upgrade your spells as soon as you get them (at least to Adept 1), eat appropriate level food, have at least 2 weapons skills at max (especially now with the AAs), just knowing what to do and when to do it is the most of it.   I have learned a lot of strategy just by reading this thread.</p><p>Cabler, Paladin and loving it.</p>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Hamervelder wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Tasmai wrote:<div>Heh, people talk like it takes skill to hold agro with a pally. All they do is put amends on a dps class and forget about it. Want a real test of how good a tank you are? Play a shadowkngiht for more then 20 levels.</div><hr></blockquote>Seriously give me a break....if you think you can still just put Amends on one dps and do nothing you are wrong.  There is more to aggro then just amends on 1 dps.  You have DPS and Debuffs, we have aggro control....deal with it.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I dunno mate.  I slap Amends on whomever does the highest DPS, taunt once in a while, and don't have to do much else.  I've also had superb success by putting amends on the berzerker in the group, and then having that person taunt their butt off.</div><hr></blockquote>It really depends on your group though......when I am doing certain quests, or grinding AA XP, I will go for a max dps group with maybe 1 healer...sometimes none.Slapping on amends on 1 dps in a group with:-- Brigand-- Ranger-- Assassin-- ConjurorIsn't going to allow you to just say cast amends on the Conjuror and sit back <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - If you are in a group with 2 dps (1 with deaggro) then it's possible without much problems, but in max dps groups it just isn't.</span><div></div>

[Geekyone]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>MoD1133 wrote:<div>its simple, if you dont like playing your class and are bored, then why are you still playing it and telling the paladins that do have fun playing there class and and know how to play it well, that "Paladins really do suck"??</div><hr></blockquote><p>Yes I titled the thread wrong...</p><p><strong>now go read what it's really about though...................</strong></p>

[demolition tank]

To keep aggro...I have to adept 3 / master all my taunts, constantlly use both my ancient teachings sigil / consecration , rip AOE's and spam my taunts as fast as my fingers can cue them. Aggro still slips like a mother [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], there seems to be nothing I can do about it. The only skills that really "keep" aggro are my two teachings and the recarge on them is so absurd that they can only be used in emergency situations.<div></div>

[Boli32]

I no longer play my paladin anymore. Sure he's nigh unkillable but unless I get myself into a group then its snoresville for soloing. I pulled him up from 41-43 mainly on quests alone but what really clinched it was my 'epic' battle between a healer centaur and myself. took 40min and I ended up loosing.He gets dug out if I need access to a place or the group really needs a tank but those ebon plates of his are getting mighty dusty.<div></div>

[robusticus]

<div></div><div></div><p>I've had those grps with 4 dpses from time to time, it ain't fun and it ain't pretty.</p><p>I can't believe you guys would think pallies are boring visually... I mean, getting smacked across a room, slammed into a wall and that cool expression you get when you're stunned wondering where did I go and did I hold aggro and why aren't these bozo's healing me oh they are it just isn't helping... how can that be boring?</p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:40 AM</span></p>

[RandomEffe]

<div></div><p>I loved my pally pre lu13 he was a good all around toon, now he's a  poor every thing. If you want a backup dps get a scout or mage class (12th of 16 classes), if you want a backup healer get any healer class (5 th of 16 classes), if you want a tank get any other tank or scout (8th of 16 classes). Last night I was lfg for over 2 hour, I checked /who all paladin, 14 pallys on line at 8pm est on permafrost, 6 were lfg, no one plays them, no one wants them in group anymore. I keep trying to come back to him, just hopeing soe will fix him.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>And yes I've moved on to a ranger, was lfg for about 7 min.</p><p>Ethion Honorblade 63 Paladin, Permafrost</p><p>Vixena Nine 53 Ranger, Permafrost</p>

[Leawyn]

I like my pally. I have retired my necro to play my pally exclusively. And I don't regret it. I don't need to make fancy moves or drop big bombs to have fun. Saving my wiztard or healer from an untimely death or being able to pull off some spectacular saves out of impossible odds is enough excitement for me =)<div></div>

[Majorminor]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Turb0T wrote:ColdMetal is doing something badly wrong.I solo'd in the Clefts zone for at most two hours last night as a L50 pally, mobs white or yellow to me, had a lot of fun and made over 30% of a level. Also made some nice AA points from the solo nameds in there.I am enjoying my pally a lot. He can do things my alts cannot.<hr></blockquote>Don't take it too hard TurbOT,  Cold has been complaining about the pally for a long time. Just look at some of his older posts.<p>Message Edited by Majorminor on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:25 AM</span></p>

[robusticus]

<div></div><p>Well, we've been on hard times for a long time now... so what can you expect?</p><p>The good news is, a pally in full relic with 50 AA points and a bunch of masters seems to be pretty much where the average pally was before Live Nerf #13.  So keep gridning at it, save up your plat so you can bribe your way into raids and it'll be all good.</p>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><div></div><div>I've played my paly since this game came out. I have never thought about changing mains. I have a swashie and a warlock I play for fun, but for everyday play its my Paly.</div><div> </div><div>Yeah, I dont kill stuff as fast as some others. Yeah, I dont have cool, nifty spells that one-shot mobs or summon pets.</div><div> </div><div>BUT....<strike>im like the terminator</strike>. Palys are the premier grp tank, hands down. All tanks will go lfg and all tanks have that problem. We all have poor utility. Monks and Bruisers solo better, but we tank better.</div><div> </div><div>Ive have posting on these boards for a LONG time now. When we had decent DPS people complained about tanking and aggro. Now that we can tank and have great aggro, we complain about DPS.</div><div> </div><div>We cant have both. Arguably, we have the best utility of all tanks. I have been in fights where the healer went down, and I warded myself, rezzed the healer, LoH'd myself, popped off a grp heal, and went right back in fray. This all while tanking.</div><div> </div><div>The argument can be made that in raid situations, Guards have a moderate advantage on us. In grp tanking, I'd take a Paladin ANYDAY of the week.</div><div> </div><div>and so would almost any DPS class. Read the wiz, warlock, ranger, etc boards. They love palys.</div><div> </div><div>We cant have great dps and great tanking. Its either one or the other.</div><div> </div><div>I, for one, believe that we are tanks, and in that area we shine.</div><div> </div><div>Editted due to bad analogy.</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">03-31-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:09 AM</span></p>

[robusticus]

<div></div>I seem to recall the terminator having very nice DPS, being able to tank AND heal itself all at the same time.

[Seidhkona]

<blockquote><hr size="2" width="100%"><p><font size="3" color="#ffff00">Ethion Honorblade  said:</font></p><p><font size="3" color="#ffff00">I loved my pally pre lu13 he was a good all around toon, now he's a  poor every thing. If you want a backup dps get a scout or mage class (12th of 16 classes), if you want a backup healer get any healer class (5 th of 16 classes), if you want a tank get any other tank or scout (8th of 16 classes). Last night I was lfg for over 2 hour, I checked /who all paladin, 14 pallys on line at 8pm est on permafrost, 6 were lfg, no one plays them, no one wants them in group anymore. I keep trying to come back to him, just hopeing soe will fix him.</font></p><hr size="2" width="100%"></blockquote><p> </p>Strange.  I do solo quite a bit, but I constantly am getting tells of folks asking me to tank if I do not have /role on.  I can't think how many times I've seen channel messages begging for a tank for Nek Castle, or Cazic-Thule, or .... you get the idea.  I have never had any trouble getting a group, and when I've wanted a raid for DFC or that muckin' great orc behind DFC, I had no trouble getting those, either.  Maybe it's your playtimes, or just your server population?I noticed that when grouped with pet classes with Master-level pets, I have to put Amends on the pet or else it completely steals aggro.  I've also noticed in pickup groups that a lot of DPS-class types have no idea whatsoever about how to assist, or controlling their aggro.  It's so annoying to be about to pull and see an arrow go arcing over your head, after the fifth time you have told everybody not to hit the mob until you say so so you can get and hold aggro.  And more annoying yet when the now-naked DPSer whines afterwards, "Wah! You let me get killed! Why didn't you hold aggro better?"Luckily, I have been blessed by grouping with a great many excellent players of all classes.  Now I have to learn how to play better with mezzers... I think Decree may be breaking the mezz...<div></div>

[Torum]

<div></div>I have a pretty uber pally and I can go LFG for several hours, Not sure if its from lack of people grouping or if people my level are grabing a guard or zerk for extra ummmff.  Im 68 and geared to the max in fabled, might be because of the warrior AA line people are picking up a guard or zerk because of there extra security against high end mobs and orange cons. Plus with the introduction of T7 jewerly our once impressive resists have become trivial.   Either way as of late im not very impressed with the pally class or AA line...  LOL seems lots of people arent but hopefully SOE will help us out...

[robusticus]

<div></div>I bet those annoying pre-pulling dpsers would listen more if you were mounted on a flying horse that farts fire.

[Leawyn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Torum76 wrote:<div></div>I have a pretty uber pally and I can go LFG for several hours, Not sure if its from lack of people grouping or if people my level are grabing a guard or zerk for extra ummmff.  Im 68 and geared to the max in fabled, might be because of the warrior AA line people are picking up a guard or zerk because of there extra security against high end mobs and orange cons. Plus with the introduction of T7 jewerly our once impressive resists have become trivial.   Either way as of late im not very impressed with the pally class or AA line...  LOL seems lots of people arent but hopefully SOE will help us out...<hr></blockquote>I think you have bad luck. I have people who send me a tell and ask me if there is room in my group (if they see me in an exp grind spot) and I am rarely without a group for very long. Even if I am, I just solo or do quests until a group pops up. Maybe its not so much your gear or your class, but your attitude. You sound pretty negative about your class, maybe others have noticed and choose to group with someone a bit more "up"... I don't know, i don't know you from Tom, but just from your posts, you just seem to be a negative person, at least when it comes to your paladin.

[Torum]

<div></div>Lol thats not it at all, people that no me will disagree with that statement all togeather.  Currently I have been on LFG for over 5 hours and I have yet to recieve even a tell.  People who know my toon consider me an awesome tank, I think people are getting back to the pre LU13 state of mind where if they see a tank LFG they instantly go for the Guardian or Zerk.  Plus there is nothing negative about fighting for your class to be better in the high end of game...  Majority of the fixes it seems that happen to classes come from people complaining on the forums and not by the DEVS respecting our opinions...

[Rocksthemic]

<span><blockquote><hr>Geekyone wrote:<div></div><div></div><div><p><span>I love playing my Paladin.  Not so much for the fact that he is any good, or fun to play, but because of what a Paladin is.  He represents what is good and just.  The pinnacle of a virtuous warrior.  I like being the good guy.</span><span></span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Paladin has always been the first character I roll in MMO's and this is true with EQ2.  My Pally is level 53, and during that time, I have played every other class in the game, albeit a few of the mages classes, they are fun, but I like being in the middle of stuff.</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Let me tell you...Paladins are BORING!  I mean in a mean sort of "I'm never going to accomplish much" type of boring.  No special moves, no attacks that require me to stun, move around back, stealth then stabbity.  No fun abilities to use at just the right time.  No flurry of attacks that are awe inspiring to watch.  The worlds worst ever Heroic Opp. (Taunting while solo?!  Whoever thought of that is dumber than a rock.) No big hits, no great hit points, no great abilities to speak of.  (Please do not mention LoH it is a joke, it has been severely overnerfed.)  This is all in a group too, outside of a group Paladins are almost as bad as a Templar solo.  At least a Templar in a group is actively paying attention.  I in a group or out of one, I do the same repetitive attack combos.  Then four levels later I wake up to choose a special ability.</span></p><p><span></span> </p><p><span>Any of you that have played a pally and love them for what they are, you know my pain.  Maybe things change drastically at levels 54 and up, but I'm doubting it.  All I ask is, please please give my paladin something...anything which might make my pally fun/entertaining.</span></p></div><p>Message Edited by Geekyone on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:07 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Sorry, I don't know your pain... you mention the lack of solo ability. Paladins or most tanks for that matter are never meant to be the end all/be all of soloing. You mention no series of special attacks... well you have kicks, shield bashes, etc. You see that finger wiggler mob wavin his hands? You are the one who has to stun him and stop him from casting. You see that add coming because the scout backed up too far? Switch to that mob and throw down a taunt to get him on you, and switch back to the original mob so fast that the rest of the group thinks they were imagining your target change. The fact that your AE taunt debuffs divine dmg thus making your attacks hit harder has already been discussed. You can cycle between decree and AE taunt most times to advance your HO's if you so choose. As far as great abilities... you get amends, wards, heals, and you can do some of the best AE dmg of any plate tank starting at lvl 55 with consecrate. The ONLY point you even come close to making is our lack of dps on solo mobs. Well if you want to be a dps class, you should go with another, because pallies are not it <span>:smileytongue:</span>It doesn't really matter though, if you don't like your class, or think that paladins are not fun... it's your game and you pay to play it. Change classes and find out what it's like on the other side of the fence.And as far as paladins not being able to find groups.... I might sound elitist here, but so be it. If you can't find a group as a paladin, you suck. Paladins are pretty much the best group tanks out there. Get your gear to playermade or better, get adept 1's, and you should never have a problem tanking group encounters, and shouldn't have problems with aggro.One tool I use to make sure I'm never without a group if I choose one is this... the friends list. If you find a good healer, put them on friends list. If you find a good dps, put them on friends list. You are a TANK, so basically all you ever need to start a group is a healer. Find a healer, and a dps, an you have a good trio right there.ThundaarrUnrest<Nightcap></span><div></div>

[robusticus]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>The only people who seem to think Paladins are the best group tank are Paladins themselves.  And apparently only paladins who don't play with other tanks.  The further everyone gets down in the AA tree the more apparent it is that the title of this thread is sooo approrpriate.  I could have accepted not having a role in raids but its pretty much gotten to the point where I don't have a role in most groups. </p><p>The other night in blackscale needed to talk to the dragon there, got there and as I hailed I got adds.  They of course flew right by me to the tank and I figured heck with it I'll read what the dragon has to say, the group doesn't really need me.  So I sat there for the whole fight and of course, they didn't really need me, they won handily.</p><p>Another issue again is resists - I looked at a log last night... you'd figure one thing we CAN do is resist magic damage.  I found a magic damage AE hit everyone for the same amount.  Why is that? </p><p>I don't have any trouble getting groups because I know alot of people I've been playing with for a long time.  But if I log in at an off time, forget about it.  And the only reason my friends put up with me is because I know the quests, I know the loot and I know how to laugh at myself.  As for this class?  We pretty much got nothing.  It's like the folks directing things had the right idea but the ones implementing them hate us and just did enough to give a facsimile of what a paladin should be.  Time to re-roll.  The only question is to what?  Bruiser?</p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:08 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:10 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:23 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:26 AM</span></p>

[BigDaddy253]

<div>I don't usually post in the forums (check out that crappy post count baby!) but I play a pally and is currently lvl 62.  Yes the pally has issues that need to be fixed but you folks that are saying pally's suck and are boring...all due respect, but you don't know how to play your class with the abilities they have...period.  Yes SOE has nerfed the hell out of some of our stuff and I resent them for it but learn to deal with what you have and keep posting/petitoning/buggin in hopes of getting it fixed.</div><div> </div><div>Yeah it was real boring last night in SoS when I saved the group 6 different times from a complete wipe over a 2 hour time period with 2 different tanks....thats right I was not tanking.  Yep all the group members kept saying "wow you pallys sure do suck and look really boring when ur pulling those 5 ^^^ heroics off us and the healer and controling things until we can get the tank rezzed....dam pallys suck!"</div><div> </div><div>Sry for the sarcastic remarks but I pride myself on knowing how to play my class very well and I know play it very well because I'm told evertime I group regardless of wether I'm tanking or not.  So yeah we might not be Mr. Sparkle and Flash but we do what we can do better than anyone else...save the dam day...and we can only do that if the person playing the pally knows how to play a pally.</div><div> </div><div>*dam look at all that rambling...pally suck and are boring...no wonder they can't type well either.</div>

[Turb]

Well, I find that my paladin is what I make it.I have a L48 defiler, so if I want to solo reeeeally slowly, I can <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I also have a L45 bruiser, and he's quite a DPS freak compared to the pally. My bruiser can solo some impressive stuff, mainly single opponents, by using his stun and fear in between DPS bursts.But with my pally I can have a lot of fun fighting groups, especially undead groups, using AoE, and pulling far more opponents than I expected to be able to. I can also survive situations that my bruiser couldn't. And I find it exciting and challenging to push the edges by pulling multiple enemies.As for holding aggro, don't forget you can ward and group heal to gain hate too. In a group with an offtank, you can also have amends on the offtank and have them taunt. Can work well, situationally.

[Turb]

Oh, and on resists, I think you'll find that WIS will cause an effect to succeed or fail, it's not used for mitigation. You either resist outright or you don't. You have separate mitigation resistances that will reduce damage if you fail your resist roll(s). Pallys in defensive stance have a good resistance to one particular damage type, as do other tanks, and that varies between the classes.But if you want to find out in detail, try out the stances and look at combat logs.

[Rocksthemic]

<span><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>The only people who seem to think Paladins are the best group tank are Paladins themselves.  And apparently only paladins who don't play with other tanks.  The further everyone gets down in the AA tree the more apparent it is that the title of this thread is sooo approrpriate.  I could have accepted not having a role in raids but its pretty much gotten to the point where I don't have a role in most groups. </p><p>The other night in blackscale needed to talk to the dragon there, got there and as I hailed I got adds.  They of course flew right by me to the tank and I figured heck with it I'll read what the dragon has to say, the group doesn't really need me.  So I sat there for the whole fight and of course, they didn't really need me, they won handily.</p><p>Another issue again is resists - I looked at a log last night... you'd figure one thing we CAN do is resist magic damage.  I found a magic damage AE hit everyone for the same amount.  Why is that? </p><p>I don't have any trouble getting groups because I know alot of people I've been playing with for a long time.  But if I log in at an off time, forget about it.  And the only reason my friends put up with me is because I know the quests, I know the loot and I know how to laugh at myself.  As for this class?  We pretty much got nothing.  It's like the folks directing things had the right idea but the ones implementing them hate us and just did enough to give a facsimile of what a paladin should be.  Time to re-roll.  The only question is to what?  Bruiser?</p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:08 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:10 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:23 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:26 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I actually group with other tanks quite a bit. Tanks stack pretty well in eq2. If you have a gaurd or zerker in your group with comparable mitigation though, it makes sense to let them tank. You throw your buff on them that gives them a chance to use your avoidance, stay in defense stance, and boom, you are back up tank, back up healer, and back up rezzer. Gaurdian guildmate of mine was in a group with another pally in Halls of fate and went through the whole zone in an hour from start to finish.If I am main tanking with a gaurdian or zerker, monk, or whatever other fighter class in my group and they don't have mitigation as good as mine, we do the reverse and I become main tank.And if the group doesn't need you for one encounter it doesn't mean you are useless and broken. Especially if there is another capable tank in group lol.Resists... that is your only good point. There has long been evidence that the resists numbers don't seem to mean as much on some AE's. 6k resist to a certain type and it hits everyone equally, that to me seems broken in general, not just a paladin issue.Thundaarr - 70 PaladinUnrest<Nightcap></span><div></div>

[robusticus]

<div></div><div>I've given it a solid try and in the end I think it is just banging one's head against the wall to try to MT with this class.  I will give us, however, that we are the best small group tank where there is no other option.  In that, you can do more with a pally and a dps or two than you could with any other tank.</div><div> </div><div>I adjusted my AA tree - am enjoying more the crit chances on spells, heals and melee rather than tanking stats.</div><div> </div><div>Anybody tried Reflection?  Would resists be even relevant if one had that?  Does it work on fear?</div>

[Leawyn]

<span><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><div>I've given it a solid try and in the end I think it is just banging one's head against the wall to try to MT with this class.  I will give us, however, that we are the best small group tank where there is no other option. </div><hr></blockquote>Negative people suck.</span><div></div>

[myto]

<div> </div><div>last evening i was able to solo a encounter with lvl 56++ heroics mobs at 59 .. was 1++ and 4 +</div><div> </div><div>ofcourse i have better than average gear i suppose but really paladins do not suck.</div><div> </div><div>in a grp i rarely have problems holding agro , anyways we could have used a miti buff since warriors get that and they get 80% overpowered avoidence using a buckler.</div><div> </div><div>or just give us slay undead aa like we had in eq1, i really did enjoy hitting something for 10k dmg :smileyhappy:</div>

[Turb]

Yeah, one thing I didn't understand with AAs is why templars got some nice anti-undead stuff and not us as well... *shrug*Regarding spell crits on the INT(?) AA line, does that apply to all our attack skills?

[robusticus]

<div></div><div></div><p>Unfortunately, no, just spells.  I can't see a way to up critical hit chance for CAs for us, but the melee critical chance with a two-hander in offensive stance is pretty good, especially with additions to STR, which also helps out CA damage.</p><p>And I'm not being negative, just realistic.  I think it is somewhat a disservice to the community to get on these boards trumpeting our uber tanking abilities, because it isn't even close at this point, and it is alot more enjoyable (to me at least) to play the role SOE has intended for us.  Just tired of trying to swim up stream, is all.</p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:46 AM</span></p>

[Turb]

I don't think anyone's claiming we're uber. We are good situationally, e.g. against hordes of undead, or for a group with one healer looking to push the envelope a bit.What I disagree with is that paladins are boring to play. While my bruiser can solo faster, and has some pretty nice burst dps inbetween which he can keep a solo enemy messed/feared, I get more overall fun from my paladin. Even with my all-round parry capability on my bruiser I can't engage such large groups with him.Depends what you want. If everyone enjoyed the same thing it'd be a bit more boring <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[robusticus]

<div></div><div></div>No, not uber, but trying to claim a Paladin is as good or better a tank than a warrior... I'm not seeing that even slightly, no matter the situation, even after gearing and choosing to be a tank, as much as possible.  The nice thing this time around is we have choices and the crit chances make mana usage so much more efficient.<p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:11 AM</span></p>

[Rocksthemic]

In groups, with comparable gear. Paladins are the better tanks hands down, imo. We can control aggro better than most any other tank class, group encounters are never so hard that the difference between guardian and paladin is gonna make a huge difference, and we get the abilty to save other classes with rez, ward, or LoH.If you suck in groups as a paladin, switching to a gaurdian isn't gonna help you, you will still suck, just worse.ThundaarrUnrest<Nightcap><div></div>

[sliderhouserules]

On the subject of visually exciting... I giggle every time I cast Consecrate. Well... not so much anymore, but I used to. <span>:smileytongue:</span> I *love* that spell. Very cool looking.<div></div>

[Deevaun]

<div></div><p>I've played my pal since day 1 of EQ2.  When I first started, I was awed with the graphics.  I loved righteous blow on how lightning would shoot out onto the sword as you hit the mob.  I loved my swings attack watching it envelop in flame as i hit the mob.  The bash and the kick.  It was sweet.  Learning HOs.  I had a great time.  When I was 50 before any expansion, I was having no issues out DPSing lazy DPSers.  Expansion came out.  My dps dropped, but again, I had no problem with agro or anything else. </p><p>I think, you feel the animations we have are boring, because you have not made it very far.  In a couple levels you will experience Consecrate.  Which has an awesome graphical appearance.  Just wait till Castiage : )  When beams of light comes shooting out of the sky to envelop your enemies.  A lot of it is the same over and over.  But so is every class progression.  Once you've seen your ability, you will see it thousands of times over again. </p><p>For those of you who say you run out of power to fast, yes you will.  Depends whose in your group, and your gear.  I personally have a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] load of FT gear plus prismatic 2.  So for me, power is not a problem. If you do not have these, there are power potions.  This might spice up your life a bit. </p><p>For those who say LoH and Reverent Sacrament sucks.  Those abilities have saved my life a TON.  My ward rocks, Fervent Aid rules, and a nice group heal.  We have such a HUGE amount of OMG i"m gonna DIE abilities.  Divine Favor, then we have AAs.  Divine Auras fairly great.  You tell me a tank that can run through a zone, pick up a ton of mobs, cast DA allowing their healer a bit of time to catch up and start healing, whip out Hammer Ground knocking EVERY mob surrounding you to the ground stunning them for 2 seconds, barrage them with Consecrate, Unflinching Conviction, Doom Judgement, Briimstone, Holy Symbol (can't recall upgrade name), Castiage when youg et dotted, doing this, holding insane agro control with ease.  Yes you can only do consecrate so many times, but you don't need it as much to hold insane agro if you swap play styles.  Its REALLY fun. </p><p>Try doing what i suggested, run througha  zone doing this, without consecrate, find a play style where you hold nice agro with the abilities you hvae, then come back and tell me paladins are boring.  Cause I tell you what, i play my paladin to its fullest, and am never bored, I always have something to do.  Be it, AE, taunting, single dmg, healing, warding, HOs, whatever its pure fun. </p><p>Also at level 60, before KOS, I was able to do any regular group instance without a healer, without a second class that could help heal, just PURE dps.  THATS exciting.  As I am now able to do at level 70.  Blackscale Sepulcher has already been owned by me without a healer or illusionist.  I've gone through HoFwith 1 healer most of the time, and drop mobs like nothing else sometimes with group dps over 5k on t he Berzerkers.  Soon, i will do Halls of Fate without a healer.  Just been busy.</p><p>Paladins are VERY intense.  Perhaps re read your stun abilities and start working on timing how long the mobs are stunned, that might keep your mind occupied and add a little zest to the game. </p><p>Of course this is all from my perspective, i love my paladin more then anything, and am always running around with a full group of dps who love playing with me and am always turning down other people cause my groups are always full.  If you are not happy with your class and feel its boring, then perhaps you are playing yoru class for the wrong reasons or have expectations set for the role of good?  Remember good heals, evil kills....good counters the dmg that evil does and with the balance of nature must pay the toll and kill slower. </p><p>Probably rambled on and on, just thoughts from me. </p>

[Seidhkona]

<blockquote><hr width="100%" size="2"><font size="3" color="#ffff00">robusticus said:</font><font size="3" color="#ffff00">it is alot more enjoyable (to me at least) to play the role SOE has intended for us.  Just tired of trying to swim up stream, is all.</font><hr width="100%" size="2"></blockquote>No one is stopping you from playing your role any way you wish. But don't try and trip of those of us who think paladins do NOT suck, that enjoy tanking and are good at it, and who love the game!<div></div>

[robusticus]

<div></div><div></div><p>Hahah!  We hold aggro better than guards?  Where you been?  If you have a guard in your group and are tanking the only way to hold aggro is to put amends on them.  If you have a guard with a warlock, every other encounter aggro will bounce to the warlock that way.  So you put amends on the warlock and the guard tanks anyway, at least one mob.   When a guard is tanking aggro never slips... under any circumstance.  No, my friend, we are way behind in aggro management, at this point.  We used to be the best for aggro but that's not the case any longer.</p><p>Not trying to trip anyone up here if they're trying to tank... but let's be realistic about it, there are other options for us... if you want to continue fighting the good fight, by all means... I just think we need ALOT of help from SOE to be able to tank the tougher mobs... and somehow I don't think we're gonna get that help, especially if half of us continue to say nothing is wrong. And also especially if some of us come on here bragging about tanking HOF without a healer... whatever.</p><p>I just agree with the OP... plate tanking is dull and we are half tanks in comparison to guards who are serious about tanking.  Plus the gear... dunno, i've spent countless hours trying to get decent T7 plate and have got nada, zero, zilch, except for the goosehead, which is a quest reward.  And the FT gear being mostly made for non-tanks doesn't help either.  I love how people always point out gear as part of the answer.  What does it take these days to pull the GodKing down?</p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:26 AM</span></p>

[Deevaun]

<div></div>You my friend, are not aware of paladins full potential.  I am in a raiding guild, and I group daily with some of the best DPS classes in the game.  In NO way shape or form, is a guard better then a paladin in agro management.  At least I have never met a guard who can out agro me.  I have in fact, met no fighter who can out agro me. 

[robusticus]

<div></div><div>Oh, like I said, I'm aware of the paladins full potential to get crumpled like a tin can in under 10 seconds.  Ran that play a few too many times, at this point.  Your guards going all STR in AA line?  It is pretty impressive, and a very good thing, what they can do now, aggro wise.</div><div> </div><div>Anyway, my last post on this topic.  Was just trying to say the crit chances make it alot more visually appealling.  Dunno that the art was ever the problem, that's always been fantastic, but that's all it is without going for dps...a big fluffy show that does nothing... somebody talked about consecrate, conviction, castigate, brimstone... all those are real nice visually but just imagine when they crit hit frequently or all the time... plus our group heal is nice when it critical heals after a big ae.  Big numbers, both physically on the screen and in the parse log, make a pally have alot more pizzaz... and its not like making that choice means you can't tank the same yard trash... because you still can... just not going to be tanking the tougher nameds, which, in my mind, we couldn't compete in that arena no matter what we pick in our existing AA tree...</div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<div>I truely love my pallie also, in the group/solo arena i have no complaints at all and my sympathy goes out to pallies that experience those problems.  In the raiding situation I am still adamant that they put in a 5% all damage ward that uses a devout essence to help us have more mt raiding capability.  With it having a self only target and 2 min recast it would help us on raids where our normal ward drops in one hit.  With comparing notes with other classes and close to 1,500 quests done, many of which solo, i like the safe and secure method we have of taking mobs down in soloing times.  Like many other posters our group utility is greatly appreciated in just about any group i have been in.   The other week i was MT in a group of 2 necros/2 conjurors and a defiler and agro was no problem.  People losing agro need to see if it is them or the people grouping that is causing the issue.  I was in a raid on Saturday where our raid wiped down to a FD bruiser and when it came down to getting a couple of our guildees rezzed during combat, us pallies were the number one choice for our 100% health rez and durabilty to mob AE damage.  I spent more time in that raid warding,group and single target healing and rezzing the unlucky players that were nuked or dotted to worry about how my skills applied to my guardians.  Now i will agree that if our MT went belly up my guy would most likely last 2 secs, but that is more because when i am raiding i love to be in 2 different modes, offensive 2 hander attack mode or offensive/defensive spellcaster mode with power regen gear on, either mode i sacrifice alot of mit and avoidance. </div><div> </div><div>Any way you slice it, i think a nice improvemt to our class is a spell or ability to boost our tanking ability in a raid situation, group and solo content i am pleased with.</div>

[thial]

<div></div>i have to laugh at who ever said they loos agro when tanking especialy to another tank...my pallys rocks hes fun and can tank ANY thing raid or group....ever seen a  guard tank HoF completly with a  2 handner in offensive stance with one templar? i havnt but I have done it guard i know tried and first namer owend him....if ur a pally and cant hold agro role a new class if ur a pally and have problems staying alive role a new class.....ur not a pally and dont know how to play one....than again im just uber<div></div><p>Message Edited by thial on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:33 PM</span></p>

[Goejun]

Man, u say u are uber (forgetting that u are aslo a troll it seems).Can I know your uber mitigation, HP and avoidance ?I have always compliments of people I group about my tanking abilities. I have better stuff than most pally i inspect unless they have started to get many fabled stuff from T7 raids. I have almost all my T7 taunt spell at master level. And most of the time I don't have problems but I must sweat a lot for that. And use some spells on long timers to be sure to keep aggro. And whaterever I do i can lose aggro on any other tank in group if he wants to try to over taunt me.- Pally don't have taunt problems ?Then explain me why we lose aggro agaisnt a guard or monk 3 level under us that has amends master on him when duoing ? I has happened to me when duoing with those 2 class. And several times.It means that the guy with only 59% of its aggro taunt better than us with 100%of our  taunt + its 41%....wow- no  mitigation and avoidance problems ?Wait to see the effect of guardian AA that have physical mitigation buff, 2 parry buff, block buff, defense buff...- Power ?Our spells consume a lot of power and u have to spam it so much that I am always the one with the lowest power after each encounter. And its not by a margin.Etc, etc, etc<div></div>

[Majorminor]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Goejun wrote: And whaterever I do i can lose aggro on any other tank in group if he wants to try to over taunt me.- Pally don't have taunt problems ?Then explain me why we lose aggro agaisnt a guard or monk 3 level under us that has amends master on him when duoing ? I has happened to me when duoing with those 2 class. And several times.It means that the guy with only 59% of its aggro taunt better than us with 100%of our  taunt + its 41%....wow<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Sounds to me like these people were trying really hard just to pull aggro, which is not what they should be doing if your MT'ing, period.  If your MT'ing something noone should be trying to "over taunt you".    Sometimes, when I'm grouped with the guilds guard for just normal messing around, I might try to snag aggro from him, Sure I can do it, just as He can snag aggro over me if he want's to.  It's a matter of self control in those situations for every tank that's not the MT to NOT taunt. </p><p>Though We have started experiencing with me having amends on secondary tank in the group and have him taunt.  Worked fine for me, didn't loose aggro.  but 1once, due to some long stun cycle's I got caught in.  But got it back np. </p><p>Oh yea This monk was lvl 68, and I was 62 MT'ing.  Sure it was a lower lvl raid, and I had over 8k hits with buffs, he had just over 7k, thought granted his resist's were nicer in most areas than mine.   </p>

[Leawyn]

<span><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><div>Oh, like I said, I'm aware of the paladins full potential to get crumpled like a tin can in under 10 seconds.  Ran that play a few too many times, at this point.  Your guards going all STR in AA line?  It is pretty impressive, and a very good thing, what they can do now, aggro wise.</div><div> </div><div>Anyway, my last post on this topic.  Was just trying to say the crit chances make it alot more visually appealling.  Dunno that the art was ever the problem, that's always been fantastic, but that's all it is without going for dps...a big fluffy show that does nothing... somebody talked about consecrate, conviction, castigate, brimstone... all those are real nice visually but just imagine when they crit hit frequently or all the time... plus our group heal is nice when it critical heals after a big ae.  Big numbers, both physically on the screen and in the parse log, make a pally have alot more pizzaz... and its not like making that choice means you can't tank the same yard trash... because you still can... just not going to be tanking the tougher nameds, which, in my mind, we couldn't compete in that arena no matter what we pick in our existing AA tree...</div><hr></blockquote>Man you are one bitter little pally. All you've done is whine and complain and moan, because your numbers don't have "pizzaz." You want pizzaz, why the hell did you pick a tank class? Tanks are not known for dropping the huge numbers. Except SK's every 15 mins with HT. You don't like the big fluffy show? Then reroll and quit wasting our time with your self-pity and whining because you aren't "cool enough" or something.</span><div></div>

[robusticus]

<div></div><p>Ah, you got me, you baited me.  I said I was done here, but guess not.</p><p>You know, the title of the thread is "Paladins really do suck."... I suppose you expected something other than whining?</p><p>Actually, wasn't being bitter was just sharing agreement with the OP and what I had found as a solution to the problem.  Of course, they nerfed that solution pretty much right when I found it. </p><p>Ultimately, it is the scrapping, clawing, working my butt off, dying many times to finally get to a point where I can say man, this is really cool, I am really awesome...only to have them nerf us somehow by some justification that is uncommunciated and completely arbitrary... its a bitter taste and I've had enough of it.  I wonder if other MMORGs have the nerf phenomenon? </p><p>Look at what these people are saying right now... touting us as aggro managers... well, that was true and that was cool in DOF (sort of, not neccessarily the best strategy to pick the tank barely more survivable than a scout because they can get aggro huh?)... but what did they do?  they nerfed it.  Same thing now... crusaders are finding that they have a way to add consistent value to a group - who doesn't want extra dps? - and they found that and now they are cutting that in half.</p><p>I'm tired of people telling me what to be... we can be whatever we want... but whatever we do, invariably the nerf bat will hit us again so I don't really see a point any more.</p>

[Leawyn]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><p>Look at what these people are saying right now... touting us as aggro managers... well, that was true and that was cool in DOF (sort of, not neccessarily the best strategy to pick the tank barely more survivable than a scout because they can get aggro huh?)...</p><hr></blockquote><p>I dunno why you are having such an issue with your survivability. I can survive MUCH LONGER than a scout. Maybe you are just having issues in playing the class correctly and that is where most of your problem lies. I hate to see such ugly remarks posted on a message board where people will walk by and say "Hrm... barely more survivable than a scout? Thats not good!" yes yes, i know, its the internet and not everything is true, but still, its unfair and disrespectful to spread such smut about a class that is an outstanding tank in nearly every situation.</p><p>The fact that you are having two major problems, holding agro and being able to tank, there are two possible answers here.</p><p>1) You are lying about being an "uber tank" and your gear really is about average if not less than average</p><p>2) You do not know how to play your class.</p><p>I'm not accusing you of everything, but the way you are crying, thats all I can come up with. Since there have been quite a few people who disagree with you, and very few who actually agree, I think the consensus is that we ARE good tanks and we DO hold agro very well. So maybe you need to look at yourself and quit blaming the class.</p><p>Message Edited by Leawyn on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:02 PM</span></p>

[robusticus]

<div></div><div></div><p>Oh, come on, I thought we were commiserating here.  Y'know, like a flying bucketheaders unite type of thing.</p><p>Never once said I was an uber tank quite the contrary and my gear, aside from the groovy buckethead and a few other exceptions, is well below average.</p><p>We're pretty decent tanks, when we try to be.  And I never said I couldn't hold aggro.  Just pointing out that is no longer a reason to differentiate between the tanks.</p><p>You know, you're making me feel real bad because I want to pick the crit chances instead of divine aura and solid saddle... like I'm letting my friends down by wanting a more exciting toon.</p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:05 PM</span></p>

[Wargod1968]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Oh, come on, I thought we were commiserating here.  Y'know, like a flying bucketheaders unite type of thing.</p><p><font color="#ff6600">IMO, the only thing that sucks about being a pally is that flying buckethead</font> <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Never once said I was an uber tank quite the contrary and my gear, aside from the groovy buckethead and a few other exceptions, is well below average.</p><p><font color="#ff6600">Might be part of the problem. If you can upgrade, you might find better results?</font></p><p>We're pretty decent tanks, when we try to be.  And I never said I couldn't hold aggro.  Just pointing out that is no longer a reason to differentiate between the tanks.</p><p><font color="#ff6600">For <strong>tanking</strong> purposes, I'd agree - there should be little <strong>general </strong>reason to differentiate. I think that's how the devs have professed to orient the classes. <strong>Specifically</strong>, one might pick one over the other (such as Pallys vs. spell-casting or charming mobs), however.</font></p><p>You know, you're making me feel real bad because I want to pick the crit chances instead of divine aura and solid saddle... like I'm letting my friends down by wanting a more exciting toon.</p><p><font color="#ff9900">Crit chance at 100% was going to be reduced, it was obvious from the start I think. 68% is still very high, and is going to still contribute nicely to dps. If your friends won't let you choose the AAs that make you happy, are they really friends? No AA is going to upset the apple cart as far as your ability to tank. Level 60s were tanking fine w/o AAs before KoS, remember.</font></p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:05 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Try and enjoy your pally.

[Leawyn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Oh, come on, I thought we were commiserating here.  Y'know, like a flying bucketheaders unite type of thing.</p><p>Never once said I was an uber tank quite the contrary and my gear, aside from the groovy buckethead and a few other exceptions, is well below average.</p><p>We're pretty decent tanks, when we try to be.  And I never said I couldn't hold aggro.  Just pointing out that is no longer a reason to differentiate between the tanks.</p><p>You know, you're making me feel real bad because I want to pick the crit chances instead of divine aura and solid saddle... like I'm letting my friends down by wanting a more exciting toon.</p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-04-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:05 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I never told you what AA's to pick. I'm a firm believer that everyone should pick what they want. Heck, I don't even want DA myself. But if someone wants it, more power to them. Your comments about pallies abilities have been nothing but negative, and now you're getting all up in arms because I called you on it. I will never understand why people continue to play a class that doesn't excite them.

[robusticus]

<div></div><p>I want DA, but I can't have it, unless I accept the latest nerf - halving critical chance on dmg spells.</p><p>Come back and speak to me when you have 10 more AA points and then maybe you will understand.  It may be true I can be overly sarcastic and class-depreciating when I mean otherwise, but you haven't earned the right to call me on anything, at this point, young learner.  You CERTAINLY have not earned the right to be rude to me.   Especially when I am trying to be fair and nice.</p><p>This is all about discussing things trying to find out what choices best suit us each as individuals.  I'm sorry you fail to understand that.</p>

[Leawyn]

<span><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><p>I want DA, but I can't have it, unless I accept the latest nerf - halving critical chance on dmg spells.<font color="#ff0000">It wasn't halved, it was cut by 1/3. I fail to see how one relates to the other, though.</font></p><p>Come back and speak to me when you have 10 more AA points and then maybe you will understand. <font color="#ff0000">What does my AA count have to do with anything? I have 15, and I have a set course for what I want to get. It changes sometimes, and may change again in the future, but again, i fail to see how my AA counts relate to my understanding.</font></p><p>It may be true I can be overly sarcastic and class-depreciating when I mean otherwise, but you haven't earned the right to call me on anything, at this point, young learner.  You CERTAINLY have not earned the right to be rude to me.   Especially when I am trying to be fair and nice.<font color="#ff0000">Pardon me. I was just wondering why you were always so negative, if it was part of your nature or you are just really really bitter about pallies or your lack of ability or whatever it is that makes you such a ... plesant person.</font></p><p>This is all about discussing things trying to find out what choices best suit us each as individuals.  I'm sorry you fail to understand that.<font color="#ff0000">No, actually this discussion had to do with the "flair" of pallies, not with AA's. You've been negative and whiney in almost every post, so I was just wondering why you continue to play a pally if its obviously such a pain in your butt.</font></p><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[robusticus]

<div></div><p>I will forgive you.  But please address me as Master Legionairre in all future correspondence.</p><p>I refrain from positivity because I can't stand the irony of the nerf factor.</p><p>I heard there was a cap of 50 on the AA points, and it is getting ridiculously expensive to change them.  So I'm trying to figure out where I end up in the grand scheme of things, with saving one last change for whatever my raid role will be when that time comes.</p>

[thial]

Somebody said they wanted to see SS of an uber pally. well this pally here is uber compared to every outher paly I have seen on my server. When it comes down to it though even with the best gear/stats it comes down to the skill of the player.....timing taunts wards heals and CA's wothout goin oop....<img src="http://images6.theimagehosting.com/EQ2_000111.jpg"><div></div>

[Uccel]

<span><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Hahah!  We hold aggro better than guards?  Where you been?  If you have a guard in your group and are tanking the only way to hold aggro is to put amends on them.  If you have a guard with a warlock, every other encounter aggro will bounce to the warlock that way.  So you put amends on the warlock and the guard tanks anyway, at least one mob.   When a guard is tanking aggro never slips... under any circumstance.  No, my friend, we are way behind in aggro management, at this point.  We used to be the best for aggro but that's not the case any longer.</p><p>Not trying to trip anyone up here if they're trying to tank... but let's be realistic about it, there are other options for us... if you want to continue fighting the good fight, by all means... I just think we need ALOT of help from SOE to be able to tank the tougher mobs... and somehow I don't think we're gonna get that help, especially if half of us continue to say nothing is wrong. And also especially if some of us come on here bragging about tanking HOF without a healer... whatever.</p><p>I just agree with the OP... plate tanking is dull and we are half tanks in comparison to guards who are serious about tanking.  Plus the gear... dunno, i've spent countless hours trying to get decent T7 plate and have got nada, zero, zilch, except for the goosehead, which is a quest reward.  And the FT gear being mostly made for non-tanks doesn't help either.  I love how people always point out gear as part of the answer.  What does it take these days to pull the GodKing down?</p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:26 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>My main character is a Warlock.That being said, ive never felt safer than when behind a paladin. Even if amends isnt on me, any half competant paladin can keep aggro, and keep it well.Ive been so impressed with them, thats the tank ive chosen to play. Sofar, i have yet to have any aggro issues (mastered all my taunts, but still), save ONE time when i was tanking orange mobs and the rest of the group was orange to me (so resisted taunts, and they were landing blows fine).I personally love paladins as tanks, and would choose one over a guardian for grouping any day of the week.Oh, im not in a raiding guild, so i dont know how it fares there. Seems our Advancement Abilities in the stamina line would be rather helpful.</span><div></div>

[robusticus]

<div></div><p>Dunno, people talk about aggro, but my perspective is, pre Live Nerf13 it was a fun challenge, especially with a warlock, many times reverting to wards as the only way to get aggro back and/or keep the warlock alive.</p><p>After Live Nerf 13 aggro for paladins was a joke.  Toss amends on the highest DPS then AFK.</p><p>From there it seems like its gone downhill.</p><p>There was the Amends nerf which I think had alot more impact then just the 2% because at that point rescue frequently became necessary, when before alot of us never used it.  During this time Sigil was broken, fixed, broken, fixed.</p><p>Now they've got it right I think, where any tank can choose to have good aggro via the AA tree and there really isn't any difference aggro wise, never should've been.  As I pointed out, being OT with armament up, in healer slippers with INT jacked through the roof was not a good combination with overpowered aggro abilitties. </p><p>Nowadays, a guard (or any tank for that matter) with 8 AA points on hate generation is going to out-aggro everyone who does NOT have this ability.  And because of the long history of other tanks being poor for aggro, and paladins being overpowered for it, those tanks are alot more likely to choose that path than us.  Plus, I can't say for sure, but just from experience, I think they did something to guards inherently to improve their ability to grab and hold it, because they have improved a thousandfold with KOS and it's not all about that hate generation AA. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Apples to apples, pallies probably do better holding it against warlocks, conjurors, swashbucklers, etc... but only because our wide variety of AEs, which is only a slight advantage.</p><p>Don't think it matters too much any more, as I said, that is a good thing.  It is unfortunate that this game changes so often leaving people operating on premises that are no longer true.</p>

[Asgardsfall]

<div></div><p>An interesting stat you guys might be interestied in .... from EQ2 Players.</p><p>I recently betrayed my good Pally on 30 March 2006</p><p>Level 19 - last as pally  Server Rank 149 .... Workwide Rank 4121 (Is that right???? only 4121 Pallies above level 19 worldwide !!!</p><p>Level 20 - SK at last .. the drudgery is over  Server Rank 1120 ... Worldwide Rank 33172</p><p>Kinda says it all really ... doncha think?</p>

[Dwergux]

<blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><p>I want DA, but I can't have it, unless I accept the latest nerf - halving critical chance on dmg spells.</p><p>Come back and speak to me when you have 10 more AA points and then maybe you will understand. It may be true I can be overly sarcastic and class-depreciating when I mean otherwise, but you haven't earned the right to call me on anything, at this point, young learner. You CERTAINLY have not earned the right to be rude to me. Especially when I am trying to be fair and nice.</p><p>This is all about discussing things trying to find out what choices best suit us each as individuals. I'm sorry you fail to understand that.</p><hr></blockquote>I could be mistaking, but DA is from the STA line and spell crits are in the INT line.Futher I always thought the crit chance was the improve on your current chance to crit. (IE when you have a current crit chance (without any AA) of 5% and you get the AA's for a 50% increase your chance to crit would get 7.5%)But that is my perception.

[Dwergux]

I see I only made posts to point out things that were wrong in this thread, but haven't added my own opinion.I like the paladin class, I think it's a diverse class to play and certainly not bland.I think I know what I'm talking about. I might not be the best geared paladin or the most experienced in some aspects of the game but I've been pplaying my paladin since November 2004. I go on raids. Often I'm there to buff the MT and act as backup tank. When our normal MT can't make it to the raid I'm "promoted" to the MT role.A paladin can do many things and add different things to a group.Aggro is still quite good. In some groups it takes more effort than in others, but loosing aggro isn't always the error of the tank.I do think we can take less beatings than a guardian can and sometimes that makes me sad, but...tanking is all a guardian can add to a group.Our DPS isn't as awfull as some state but on the other hand I didn't create a paladin to be a DPS.I don't know what the OP means with our combat arts look dull. Compared to a monk maybe yes, but they are the graceful martial arts masters. I can't think of a way to be gracefull while wearing a full set of plate armor. Our spell effects look nice too. But what's dull and boring and what's not is a matter of taste.

[robusticus]

<div></div><p>When I dinged 20, almost a year ago, there were a little more than 25,000 pallies over 20.  However, when I dinged 70, almost a month ago, there were only 244 at 70... according to that stat page.</p><p>I didn't go for DPS, either, but it was a welcome surprise that took me back about 6 months.  I kinda liked it and wanted more.  So would probably have put more points on that AA until I had 50 and all the gear I wanted.... then I would've taken them off the crit hits and put them towards DA... the original plan was to have 8 AAs on Mercy in the INT line, and DA at the same time, but like I said, dps is real nice for grinding and taking out trash.</p><p>For me I guess its kinda like a marriage... the honeymoon ended the day LU13 was released and I've been sorta trying to get counciling ever since <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Leawyn]

<span><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><p>For me I guess its kinda like a marriage... the honeymoon ended the day LU13 was released and I've been sorta trying to get counciling ever since <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>You are seriously hung up on LU13. Its been a year. the get *** over it!</span><div></div>

[robusticus]

<div></div>Don't be hatin' cuz I'm a dpsing terminating machine.

[SirRock]

<div>I have a level 56 Paladin.  Been playing since launch, always play a paladin when I can.</div><div> </div><div>I have never felt like it was a "boring" class.  Soloing takes a while to do, however, I also don't feel that soloing is really the prime focus of an MMO and it should take longer to do and longer to level doing.</div><div> </div><div>If you don't enjoy being a Paladin because of the way they play, then play a different class.  The fact is, they are a tanking class.  They are meant to take damage well.  That is what they do.</div><div> </div><div>They don't have special "stealth then stabbity" attacks because they are not a scout.  They don't have special flurry attacks. </div><div> </div><div>I disagree when you say they don't have special attacks though.  Paladins have various CAs that have smite-like effects on them, or AOE attacks that are very pretty to watch and are somewhat effective when dealing with large groups of mobs.</div><div> </div><div>Taunting when solo for the one HO may not be that important, but there are spells that count for it (Decree I believe is one) that deal damage to the entire encounter and complete that HO.</div><div> </div><div>Your entire argument seems to be based off a 100% soloing strategy.  Paladins are alot of fun to play, especially in groups.  Being able to tank, keep aggro, and back up the healer if needed can be challenging at times and is alot of fun. </div><div> </div><div>Sure, soloing can be tedious and boring as a Paladin, but it can be that way with almost any class.  If you wanted to solo so much, you should've gone with a conjurer or some other class.  You can't honestly expect the devs to mold the class into your ideal perception of what a Paladin should be.  Maybe while they're at it they should make every class super at soloing and forget balancing and group tactics.</div>

[robusticus]

<div></div><p>"the fact is they are a tanking class"</p><p>One of the ideas I've been kicking around in raids is the ability to change the icon next to a players name.</p><p>ie, when my icon is blue i am sleep walking dps</p><p>when my icon is green i am awake and helping the healers</p><p>when it is red, that is pretty much oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mode I'm expecting to tank something most likely after one tank has gone down <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Leawyn wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><p>For me I guess its kinda like a marriage... the honeymoon ended the day LU13 was released and I've been sorta trying to get counciling ever since <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>You are seriously hung up on LU13. Its been a year. the get *** over it!</span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span>It's actually been 7 months....not a year, but I am sure that is what you meant...people are entitled to have there own opinions just as you have yours.Pre LU13 I was probably T2 dps due to our crazy dps, and the right amount of buffs.....post LU13 we are pretty far down there, but still can do pretty decent dps against Ae encounters.Pretty much though I am getting sick of just reading the same people going back and forth with the same tired arguments in these forums now a days.  Let's actually try to make a post that doesn't turn into stupid bickering over what some people think are issues and what others aren't.While some issues you might not agree with, keep it to yourself.  Let people voice there concerns, and unless they directly ask you to go against them, then just stop it.  Nothing like trying to get clarifications or improvements on the class mostly everyone who posts here plays, and the same people over and over trying to stop that from happening.I never quite understood why people of the same class would attack people who are trying to improve the class for everyone...just because you are happy with our class, doesn't mean everyone is, or should be.<div></div>

[SirRock]

<div>There's nothing wrong with voicing concerns over problems with your class.  However, complaining because you find the class boring, is not constructive and doesn't solve anything. </div><div> </div><div>Asking the developers to make your class less boring because you can't stand it is sort of unrealistic when you consider the fact that he played the class to post 50.  If you don't like the way the class plays, create a new character, or don't play.</div><div> </div><div>Paladins play like they are supposed to play.  If you are grouping, you serve as a tank and possibly a back up healer.  That is your role.  If you are soloing, you need to take into account that you don't get much DPS and focus on wards and heals to keep you in it for the long haul.  If you want short solo fights, pick a DPS class.  Don't pick a tank class that's meant to take damage and mitigate damage and then complain because they play too much like a tank.</div>

[MeridianR]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>SirRocky6 wrote:<div>There's nothing wrong with voicing concerns over problems with your class.  However, complaining because you find the class boring, is not constructive and doesn't solve anything. </div><div> </div><div>Asking the developers to make your class less boring because you can't stand it is sort of unrealistic when you consider the fact that he played the class to post 50.  If you don't like the way the class plays, create a new character, or don't play.</div><div> </div><div>Paladins play like they are supposed to play.  If you are grouping, you serve as a tank and possibly a back up healer.  That is your role.  If you are soloing, you need to take into account that you don't get much DPS and focus on wards and heals to keep you in it for the long haul.  If you want short solo fights, pick a DPS class.  Don't pick a tank class that's meant to take damage and mitigate damage and then complain because they play too much like a tank.</div><hr></blockquote>Well by the same token, just posting the class is boring doesn't work either....lol...but a lot of the time, people post suggestions in what they think would make the class more balanced, yet they get railroaded by the same people over and over.Now granted, we shouldn't be T1 dps, nor should we be able to heal as well as any priest...but we need to be balanced compared to the other classes.  At one point we never really got a definition of what our role was (pre DoF)...but SoE clearly stated that our role was that of a tank.  Just like the other fighter classes....so personally I want to be balanced against other fighters, and not any other class.</span></div>

[robusticus]

<div></div><div>That's just it, most of us do not feel we mitigate damage well enough nor our heals and wards are working well enough to justify the MT role, to bridge the gap.  Specifically, our sacrament line, which was taken from I think a 1 minute recast timer pre-LU13 to a 5 minute recast timer and the overpowering of interrupts that complicate self-healing.  But that's been hashed and rehashed.  They will either address it or not.</div><div> </div><div>So we try to make the best of it with the tools the devs DO give us.  And have fun it with it best we can...</div>

[MeridianR]

I think the 5 min recast is fine, but the 3 second cast time should be switched to either instance or 1 sec. Our heals and ward do get interrupted a lot and I think with some shorter cast times (not recast, just cast) I think they could help mitigate the fact that we don't have as much mitigation/avoid as Guardians.<div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<div><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:I think the 5 min recast is fine, but the 3 second cast time should be switched to either instance or 1 sec. Our heals and ward do get interrupted a lot and I think with some shorter cast times (not recast, just cast) I think they could help mitigate the fact that we don't have as much mitigation/avoid as Guardians.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I think the problem we have on our wards and heals casting times is that we are under the cleric template on casting times.  If our stated goal is to to be able to tank effectively with our heals and wards while being hit by multiple mobs, then our casting times need to be reducedby at least a second on our single/group heals/ward and by 2 secs on our self heal sacrement line.  Any Higher level cleric will tell you they run in the exact same problem getting their heals and ward cast and they generally dont have the stun options we have.  I wish that one of our ae spells was a 100 percent stun like our hammer ground AE and they would greatly reduce our fizzle rate also.  Recast timers i am ok with tho and would rather they fix the other issues.  On our fizzle rate, a easy fix would be to increase our initial starter concentrator AA to gives us 45 focus no matter the health and a extra 45 if we drop below 50 percent health.</div>

[SirRock]

<div><blockquote><hr>OrcSlayer96 wrote:<div>I think the problem we have on our wards and heals casting times is that we are under the cleric template on casting times.  If our stated goal is to to be able to tank effectively with our heals and wards while being hit by multiple mobs, then our casting times need to be reducedby at least a second on our single/group heals/ward and by 2 secs on our self heal sacrement line.  Any Higher level cleric will tell you they run in the exact same problem getting their heals and ward cast and they generally dont have the stun options we have.  I wish that one of our ae spells was a 100 percent stun like our hammer ground AE and they would greatly reduce our fizzle rate also.  Recast timers i am ok with tho and would rather they fix the other issues.  On our fizzle rate, a easy fix would be to increase our initial starter concentrator AA to gives us 45 focus no matter the health and a extra 45 if we drop below 50 percent health.</div><hr></blockquote>Uh..... How often do you fizzle?  I fizzle about once or twice an encounter I think.  I don't think that's bad.</div>

[robusticus]

<div></div><div></div><p>I like the idea about the Concentor ability.</p><p>For sacrament, if the recast timer were 1 minute instead of 5, the difference on a 15 minute encounter would be 7500 healed versus 37500, roughly.  Whereas it would be no difference at all for a 1 minute encounter.  I wonder what the recast timer would be tuned to if it were, on average, set up to equate to net 0 devout essences. </p><p>I don't disagree on the cast timer for that one, 3 seconds is way too long.</p><p>EDIT: That's assuming you're alive to cast it, which I dunno, might be a bigger different issue... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class="date_text">04-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:25 PM</span></p>

[Leawyn]

<span><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Leawyn wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><p>For me I guess its kinda like a marriage... the honeymoon ended the day LU13 was released and I've been sorta trying to get counciling ever since <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>You are seriously hung up on LU13. Its been a year. the get *** over it!</span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span>It's actually been 7 months....not a year, but I am sure that is what you meant...people are entitled to have there own opinions just as you have yours.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You're right, I'm sorry. But like it has been said, Paladins are TANKS, not dps, not healers, they are tanks. So I just get annoyed by people who are still crying over "nerfs" from 7 months ago. I mean, the entire combat system was revamped! Everyone was changed. But some people take it personally. I'll stay out of it now.</span><div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Leawyn wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Leawyn wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>robusticus wrote:<div></div><p>For me I guess its kinda like a marriage... the honeymoon ended the day LU13 was released and I've been sorta trying to get counciling ever since <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>You are seriously hung up on LU13. Its been a year. the get *** over it!</span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span>It's actually been 7 months....not a year, but I am sure that is what you meant...people are entitled to have there own opinions just as you have yours.<div></div><hr></blockquote>You're right, I'm sorry. But like it has been said, Paladins are TANKS, not dps, not healers, they are tanks. So I just get annoyed by people who are still crying over "nerfs" from 7 months ago. I mean, the entire combat system was revamped! Everyone was changed. But some people take it personally. I'll stay out of it now.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I understand, some people are still caught up in LU13 changes...lol Personally I care about LU19 and KoS changes, not the DoF changes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[robusticus]

<div></div>I'll be happy when I get my relic armor... someone said 20 second recast timers on Strike and Refusal?  Mwahaha... then and only then will I be able to remove the stamp of the "dark LU" from my conscience and move on with my new pally life.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Geekyone]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> <DIV><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well by the same token, just posting the class is boring doesn't work either....lol...but a lot of the time, people post suggestions in what they think would make the class more balanced, yet they get railroaded by the same people over and over.<BR><BR><BR></SPAN></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well this whole thread went from me just wanting prettier (cooler) looking combat arts to an   I think:You think   debate.</P> <P>But all in all, it's a good thing...the paladin community has been too silent if you ask me...we deserve more.</P> <P>Everyone here claims to love playing their paladin, but then fight with some of the others who want more for their paladin.  Makes me think you're actually Templars trying to hold us down.</P> <P>Why in the world, if you actually are a paladin, whould you not want more for you're favorite class?</P> <P>I understand everyones need to be "right" when debating the potential of paladins and what and whatnot they can do, but going as far as to say we dont need something is a hinderance to our class and you should be condemned to follow in the steps of an ill fated paladin known as Lucan D'Leure (sp?)<BR></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Geekyone on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:11 AM</span>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geekyone wrote:<BR> *snip*<BR> <P>Why in the world, if you actually are a paladin, whould you not want more for you're favorite class?</P> <P>*snip*</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It seems to me that our paladin bretheren aren't "not wanting more" so much as "wanting more <U>reasonable</U> changes". I'm all for undoing some of the nerf bat damage. However, I also don't want us to become so overpowered (comparatively) that the paladin class loses it's challenge and fun playability. For me, pert of the fun is working around all the BS nerfs that get washed over us, and still come out smelling like a rose when it comes to tanking.</P> <P>That being said, I wish our community would focus on bringing dev attention to things that need fixed first (wards, amends stacking issues with other class hate reducers, etc) then look for plusses (miti buffs, self-wards, higher resists). It's not that I don't want those latter things, but as a community we are somewhat unfocused and so the devs are rarely given a task or two to really concentrate on, and are given a more general feel of "Half our spells are crap, and we need more raid tankability!!". While the statement is true (to some extent) it's too general to help them fix any issues with our class.</P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Paragon of Truth</P><p>Message Edited by Wulfborne on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:26 AM</span>

[Leawyn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geekyone wrote:<BR> *snip*<BR> <P>Why in the world, if you actually are a paladin, whould you not want more for you're favorite class?</P> <P>*snip*</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It seems to me that our paladin bretheren aren't "not wanting more" so much as "wanting more <U>reasonable</U> changes". </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree completely! I do wish I could tank better sometimes, or hold agro better sometimes, or heal better sometimes, but all in all, I work with what I have and try to make the most of it.  I feel I am a competent tank when doing what is reasonable for my level (tanking orange+ mobs is not reasonable to me, the resists and lowered mitigation vs those mobs make it [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near impossible for me to do), and most of the time I do a good job of holding agro and maintaining a happy balance between heals and dps.</P> <P>I don't raid at the moment. And I've recently moved from a hard core raiding guild to a more relaxed one that better fits my playstyle. I do plan on raiding stuff, but I don't expect to be in Deathtoll any time soon! So as far as raiding goes, I will humbly admit that I don't know all that much about raiding as a pally. So I leave that to the "experts" in the field.</P> <P>But I'm sorry if I disagree that we should have the dps of a ranger, while being able to take hits like a guardian, and wanting heals that cast faster and heal for more than a templars. Its just NOT BALANCED. Sure, it would be NICE, but it wouldn't be balanced. Some of the ideas that have come out of these discussions have been great (self-only ward that wards a % instead of a flat number is a FANTASTIC idea!) but some of them are just unreasonable.</P>

[robusticus]

<P>You don't have to be sorry for disagreeing.</P> <P>You yourself said that it would be unheard of to add a new ability at this point in the release cycle.  And having recently dealt with the trauma of having broken wards and having no idea why I'd be very against any kind of fundemental change to our existing wards.  What would the 5% be of?  Total health?  So 10K health you get a ward of 500?  I don't think I am understanding that suggestion at this point.</P> <P>Sacrament is an ability we already have, it does not work well during combat at the moment and once upon a time it did.  It is the ability that compares to what guards get in terms of temporary mitagation buffs.  Though if you compare the casting and recasting timers, you will see the paladin's abilities are sadly deficient.  This may be due to some balancing of what is absorbed versus what is healed and it also may have been balanced in T6 but became unbalanced in T7.  Any way you slice it though if your team failed to keep your health above 50% and you have to resort to that self heal, 3 seconds later you will most likely be dead or healed by someone else.</P> <P>Not that I care for myself.  But I don't want to be told what is good for the Pally OT is a slap in the face for the Pally MT.</P>

[Leawyn]

<P>the %age ward would be a % of incoming damage for a set duration, say 10-30 seconds (depending if we want it to "compete" with the warriors temp mitigation buffs). So if a mob hits you for say 10,000, and you have 60% mitigation, it would be incoming damage of 4000, which you would mitigate, lets say, 10%, or 400, making it a total hit of 3600. I'm just using nice round numbers to make it easier to see.</P> <P>10,000 pt "hit" from mob</P> <P>- 60% mitigated or 6000 pts mitigated</P> <P>= 4000 pt "hit"</P> <P>- 10% ward or 400 pts warded</P> <P>= 3600 pts of damage taken.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE!</FONT> I have not had alot of time to think about what % of warding we should get to make it comparable to the % of mitigation increase that a warrior gets. I also have not given great thought to duration or recast times on this! This is someone else's idea, just me explaining it in simple terms.</P><p>Message Edited by Leawyn on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:35 AM</span>

[Wulfborne]

<DIV>If that's the case, and his ward idea is as you described above, then truly it's a mitigation buff, and not so much a ward. True wards block 100% of a certain type of damage, up to a set amount. If something is used to offset damage dealt, then it's a mitigation buff, be it physical (your overall armor protection) or magical (your various resist stats).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I mentioned above, I'd love to have some sort of buff or ability that increases our mitigation somewhat, but only after our currrent spells and abilities have had the kinks worked out. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Paragon of Truth</DIV>

[robusticus]

Though the lack of scalability issue rings true... so % dmg or stacking something should be done there... I'm curious what the raid tankers preference would be.

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote:<BR> <DIV>If that's the case, and his ward idea is as you described above, then truly it's a mitigation buff, and not so much a ward. True wards block 100% of a certain type of damage, up to a set amount. If something is used to offset damage dealt, then it's a mitigation buff, be it physical (your overall armor protection) or magical (your various resist stats).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I mentioned above, I'd love to have some sort of buff or ability that increases our mitigation somewhat, but only after our currrent spells and abilities have had the kinks worked out. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Paragon of Truth</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My idea od the percentage ward is to have 5-8% ward that is a self only buff that consumes a devout essence and is on a 2 min timer.  The 5-8% ward is not just mitigation, it is all directed damage to paladin: the 7 spell types and physical damage also, just like how are ward protects us on our single target ward now.  It has a low 5-8% to account for protecting against both slashing/piercing/crushing and mental/poison/cold/heat/magic/divine/disease damage.  The duration would be 30-36 secs based on the quality of the spell from app1 to master 1.  Casting time is 1-2 secs and recast time is 2 mins.  A ward does not guarantee 100 percent protection, it prevents a number of damage after the physical or spell mitigation number is factored in.  All i am doing is substituting a fixed number to percentage to allow it to scale based on the encounter not become ineffective on higher content.  The cool thing about this is the ward is based on total buffed health so a mystic with bolster would increase the potency of the spell and so on.  I chose a ward because it most closely matches to a degree the protection a warrior class recieves in prevenative damage, heals are retroactive damage.  I too would like a few changes on the sacrament line, a mid level revive out of combat spell, and a true fix to how our amends and sigil line works with other hate transfers.   Please feel free to comment more on this and i am more than willing to tweak things...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Leawyn]

See, I told you someone else could describe it better. Steel, I will join you in /feedbacking this idea to the dev's. We may just see it come to fruitation in T8. Like I said before, I highly doubt they would introduce a new spell for us this late into T7

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Hmn...T8 wish list..</P> <P>a) lowered casting time for heals and wards</P> <P>b) Since Guards have the mitigation buff on a timer, i'd like to see a Crusader <EM><U>resistance</U></EM> buff on a timer that absorbs alot of arcane/magic, blah blah blah spells. Also, some true caster raid mobs.</P> <P>c) Better graphics for our spells and stuff. Like a freakin HUGE flashing fist that comes out of the sky and smashes the mob. Give the term Holy Smite a new meaning.</P> <P>d) Paladin armor that actually LOOKS Paladinish..with freakin sparkles and rainbows, just the way Phov and Saffira likes it. Phov likes the rainbows, BTW.</P> <P>e) A Paladin mezz that allows us to mezz a mob and turn it into a squire that attacks. Sort of like the SK pet version.</P> <P>f) A limited edition portrait of Uzhiel that you can hang in your very own room. </P> <P>g) A ward that we can keep up at the cost of health or power. Kinda like our version of ToS.</P> <P>h) Reduced cast timer on the sacrament to 2 mins.</P> <P> </P>

[Wulfborne]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>Hmn...T8 wish list..</P> <P>a) lowered casting time for heals and wards</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I think they believe this area was covered with certain AA abilities that reduce recast timers.</FONT></P> <P>b) Since Guards have the mitigation buff on a timer, i'd like to see a Crusader <EM><U>resistance</U></EM> buff on a timer that absorbs alot of arcane/magic, blah blah blah spells. Also, some true caster raid mobs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>This would be nice to see, since we are suposed to be tanks better suited towards needing resistance.</FONT></P> <P>c) Better graphics for our spells and stuff. Like a freakin HUGE flashing fist that comes out of the sky and smashes the mob. Give the term Holy Smite a new meaning.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Better graphics... well, I think perhaps it would be nice if the effects would scale according to the level/tier of the spell being cast. So the better the spell (master vs. app 2) or higher level the spell (lvl 55 vs 69 upgrade) the bigger and more amazing the type of particle effects...similar to each other (since it's the same spell) but indicative of the power and strength of the spell.</FONT></P> <P>d) Paladin armor that actually LOOKS Paladinish..with freakin sparkles and rainbows, just the way Phov and Saffira likes it. Phov likes the rainbows, BTW.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>High shine armor would rock, vs some of the dingy stuff that even SKs like wearing.</FONT></P> <P>e) A Paladin mezz that allows us to mezz a mob and turn it into a squire that attacks. Sort of like the SK pet version.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Maybe some short duration "Fanatical Squire" swarm pets?</FONT></P> <P>f) A limited edition portrait of Uzhiel that you can hang in your very own room. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Not the one with the leaf and bowl of Jell-o, I hope...</FONT></P> <P>g) A ward that we can keep up at the cost of health or power. Kinda like our version of ToS.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Prolly a little overpowering for a full ward, imo, especially given your resistance buff suggestion above.</FONT></P> <P>h) Reduced cast timer on the sacrament to 2 mins.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Hellz yes... but would rather not wait for T8 for them to fix that.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Comments in red.</P> <P> </P> <P>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Paragon of Truth<BR></P>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OrcSlayer96 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote:<BR> <DIV>If that's the case, and his ward idea is as you described above, then truly it's a mitigation buff, and not so much a ward. True wards block 100% of a certain type of damage, up to a set amount. If something is used to offset damage dealt, then it's a mitigation buff, be it physical (your overall armor protection) or magical (your various resist stats).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I mentioned above, I'd love to have some sort of buff or ability that increases our mitigation somewhat, but only after our currrent spells and abilities have had the kinks worked out. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Paragon of Truth</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My idea od the percentage ward is to have 5-8% ward that is a self only buff that consumes a devout essence and is on a 2 min timer.  The 5-8% ward is not just mitigation, it is all directed damage to paladin: the 7 spell types and physical damage also, just like how are ward protects us on our single target ward now.  It has a low 5-8% to account for protecting against both slashing/piercing/crushing and mental/poison/cold/heat/magic/divine/disease damage.  The duration would be 30-36 secs based on the quality of the spell from app1 to master 1.  Casting time is 1-2 secs and recast time is 2 mins.  A ward does not guarantee 100 percent protection, it prevents a number of damage after the physical or spell mitigation number is factored in.  All i am doing is substituting a fixed number to percentage to allow it to scale based on the encounter not become ineffective on higher content.  The cool thing about this is the ward is based on total buffed health so a mystic with bolster would increase the potency of the spell and so on.  I chose a ward because it most closely matches to a degree the protection a warrior class recieves in prevenative damage, heals are retroactive damage.  I too would like a few changes on the sacrament line, a mid level revive out of combat spell, and a true fix to how our amends and sigil line works with other hate transfers.   Please feel free to comment more on this and i am more than willing to tweak things...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This percentage seems -WAY- too low to be effective unless I'm misunderstanding you. 5-8% of a targets max health, even at 10k HP is under 1,000 HP's of damage prevented. Seriously, my own Mother could go through a ward that small in one hit and still have some damage left over to comment snarkily about how I never call her. Even taking a percentage off each hit (to make it more ala Mitigation) the percentage is still extraordinarily low. Guardians are out-mitigating us by multiple tens of % in some cases off each hit. (Basic I know, but a guard with 60% mit and me with 50% means on an incoming hit of 5k damage, I take 2500 to their 2000. That's most of your ward gone right there.) The math just seems low.<BR>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<DIV>PS:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would kill for rainbow armor. Someone needs to make this happen.</DIV>

[robusticus]

I want a disco ball I can place in my house... but I'm really feelin' the squire mezz the mobs idea... perhaps the squire could have a disco ball too or instead?

[Nickthegr]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pathin Merrithay wrote:<BR> <DIV>PS:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would kill for rainbow armor. Someone needs to make this happen.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Um - hmmm. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think I'll kill MYSELF if this does happen. </DIV>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nickthegrip wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pathin Merrithay wrote:<BR> <DIV>PS:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would kill for rainbow armor. Someone needs to make this happen.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Um - hmmm. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think I'll kill MYSELF if this does happen. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm still convinced the prismatics were still the best looking weapons in game. Imagine while armor like that, radiating unearthly 7-veil effects? *mrowl*<BR>

[robusticus]

<P>I'd rather have a flying horse that consecrates.</P> <P>Perhaps they should make it an AA choice.</P>

[Leawyn]

<DIV>shiney silver armor with prismatic 1 effects would be so cool. I would love to see that happen!</DIV>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pathin Merrithay wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OrcSlayer96 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wulfborne wrote:<BR> <DIV>If that's the case, and his ward idea is as you described above, then truly it's a mitigation buff, and not so much a ward. True wards block 100% of a certain type of damage, up to a set amount. If something is used to offset damage dealt, then it's a mitigation buff, be it physical (your overall armor protection) or magical (your various resist stats).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I mentioned above, I'd love to have some sort of buff or ability that increases our mitigation somewhat, but only after our currrent spells and abilities have had the kinks worked out. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Paragon of Truth</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My idea od the percentage ward is to have 5-8% ward that is a self only buff that consumes a devout essence and is on a 2 min timer.  The 5-8% ward is not just mitigation, it is all directed damage to paladin: the 7 spell types and physical damage also, just like how are ward protects us on our single target ward now.  It has a low 5-8% to account for protecting against both slashing/piercing/crushing and mental/poison/cold/heat/magic/divine/disease damage.  The duration would be 30-36 secs based on the quality of the spell from app1 to master 1.  Casting time is 1-2 secs and recast time is 2 mins.  A ward does not guarantee 100 percent protection, it prevents a number of damage after the physical or spell mitigation number is factored in.  All i am doing is substituting a fixed number to percentage to allow it to scale based on the encounter not become ineffective on higher content.  The cool thing about this is the ward is based on total buffed health so a mystic with bolster would increase the potency of the spell and so on.  I chose a ward because it most closely matches to a degree the protection a warrior class recieves in prevenative damage, heals are retroactive damage.  I too would like a few changes on the sacrament line, a mid level revive out of combat spell, and a true fix to how our amends and sigil line works with other hate transfers.   Please feel free to comment more on this and i am more than willing to tweak things...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This percentage seems -WAY- too low to be effective unless I'm misunderstanding you. 5-8% of a targets max health, even at 10k HP is under 1,000 HP's of damage prevented. Seriously, my own Mother could go through a ward that small in one hit and still have some damage left over to comment snarkily about how I never call her. Even taking a percentage off each hit (to make it more ala Mitigation) the percentage is still extraordinarily low. Guardians are out-mitigating us by multiple tens of % in some cases off each hit. (Basic I know, but a guard with 60% mit and me with 50% means on an incoming hit of 5k damage, I take 2500 to their 2000. That's most of your ward gone right there.) The math just seems low.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The percentage can be upped to be more than 5-8%, that is just the arbitrary number i picked for explanation.  The thing that is confusing alot of people is that this is a regenerating ward per hit till the duration expires.  For example:  Steel casts self ward just before pull and is at 10,000 health buffed up.  at 5% ward he is protected by 500 physical and 500 spell damage for each hit till his 30 second duration expires.  </P> <P>Mob opens up with a 2,500 crushing attack.  Steel's 60% native mitigation absorbs 1,500 damage leaving 1,000 left over.  the self ward protects against 500 more damage, leaving 500 to land on the paladin.   On the next attack from the mob, it hits the paladin with 6,000 point heat ae.  Steels heat resist at 70% absorbs 4,200 heat damage, then the ward protects against 500 more of the heat damage, leaving 3,700 heat damage inflicted.  Next attack the mob deals 3,000 crushing attack on a crit hit and Steel mitigates 1,800 damage with the ward protecting for another 500 damage, leaving 1,300 total damage inflicted.  During this time our normal ward would have been almost used up on the first crushing attack with around 300 left over on the next attack and then we would wait on 15 secs or so to recast our ward.  With the self ward coupled with our normal ward Steel would have recieved no damage on first hit, 2,100 heat damage on the 2nd hit and 1,300 damage on last hit, more in the reasonable limit of healing..  </P> <P>People are saying this is another form of saying a mitigation buff, mitigation is protection against crushing/slashing/piercing attacks while wards protect against all damage like the scenario i put forth above.  The ward amount is applied to each damage targeted to us per occurance.  That is why i chose 5-8% for the amount, the protected amount for the entire duration would blow the door off of any healing/ward abilities we have.<BR></P>

[Daydeee]

<P>Get to 70, grab three dps related classes, mine were monk wizard and a ranger. Then todle off to the Palace of the Awakened and proceed to kill everything with a name tag, including the intervening mobs.</P> <P>Wisdom Int AA's ftw, stamina agility and strength can all goto the garbage as far as i am concerned. Symbol and sword for that dual wield animation <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I can get in touch with where the OP was comming from. He needs but to unlock the potential of the Knight within...</P> <P>I also die too much on raids to bother with the best ubah raid items. The event above was done with gear obtainable from heroic encounters.</P> <P>As to the rainbow armor, just wait the relic armor is bad enough....<BR>Remeber sitting behind a huge shield and boring a mob to death isn't always the best strategy. Heck some of my best solo fights I wasn't even defensive or using a shield...</P> <P>Also to note crusaders as of level 35 is the only class capable of dispelling magical effect on mobs....</P> <P>Nb. I also make a dam fine corpse <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> even in bright yellow pants...</P>

[robusticus]

<P>Oh yeah, dual wielding stein of moggock.  I'm sold.</P> <P>What's that group buff cap out at with 8 points?  Battle Leadership?</P> <P>EDIT: Sten of Moggock Shield Bash... wow... now THAT is cool</P><p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:12 PM</span>

[SirRock]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nickthegrip wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pathin Merrithay wrote:<BR> <DIV>PS:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would kill for rainbow armor. Someone needs to make this happen.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Um - hmmm. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think I'll kill MYSELF if this does happen. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/AGREE</P> <P> </P> <P>Unless they are adding it as an option to a cooler, normal looking armor, I am not for rainbow armor.  Pink armor is bad enough.</P>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daydeee wrote:<BR> <P>Get to 70, grab three dps related classes, mine were monk wizard and a ranger. Then todle off to the Palace of the Awakened and proceed to kill everything with a name tag, including the intervening mobs.</P> <P>Wisdom Int AA's ftw, stamina agility and strength can all goto the garbage as far as i am concerned. Symbol and sword for that dual wield animation <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I can get in touch with where the OP was comming from. He needs but to unlock the potential of the Knight within...</P> <P>I also die too much on raids to bother with the best ubah raid items. The event above was done with gear obtainable from heroic encounters.</P> <P>As to the rainbow armor, just wait the relic armor is bad enough....<BR>Remeber sitting behind a huge shield and boring a mob to death isn't always the best strategy. Heck some of my best solo fights I wasn't even defensive or using a shield...</P> <P>Also to note crusaders as of level 35 is the only class capable of dispelling magical effect on mobs....</P> <P>Nb. I also make a dam fine corpse <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> even in bright yellow pants...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah i am not a fan of the agility side and think the strength side would be nice if i had 75 AA points instead of 50.  The Stamina side i will have to disagree with you on tho.  With going 4/4/4/4 in stamina i recieve 20 more stamina = 96 health plus 2% additional health for me that is roughly  120 more health for a total of around 216 health added on our total, plus a nice increase on our melee critical hits and a sweet 2.1 second 100% stun melee range AE attack that helps me big time.  Everything other than the end  of path abilities in our Wisdom/Stamina/Intelligence look very promising and when i get all of my AA points i will have a more clearer picture of them.  I stayed away from the wisdom line till they fixed the numerous bugs in that line and put some points in the int path and so far so good.  I am looking forward to have a mace in one hand and a tome in the other as i take advantge of our smite spell and hammer ground stun abilities.<BR>

[k9quaint]

The stamina and wisdom lines are the best AA lines for PvP. More HP, more spell resists, DA, AE stun are all very nice toys to have for a PvP server.<div></div>

[demolition tank]

Stamina and Wisdom lines are the WORST choices for a PvP server. The STR / AGI / INT lines are all vastly superior. The STR line increases your damage by leaps and bounds which is key to being effective in any pvp situation. the AGI line is not the best for PVP but it does have some great DD effects which will help when pvping. The INT line lets you crit like mad, your spells and heals will be poping crit almost every time if you get thoes skills up far enough. Wisdom line is horrible, the only thing i've enjoyed about it is the +skills which is nice because low level DD in your team will be able to hit orange and red mobs. The STAM line is only good for tanking tanking and more tanking, it really has no use in a pvp situation other then to mabey delay your inevdiable death about 10 seconds or so. <div></div>

[Ultim]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geekyone wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN>Any of you that have played a pally and love them for what they are, you know my pain.  Maybe things change drastically at levels 54 and up, but I'm doubting it.  All I ask is, please please give my paladin something...anything which might make my pally fun/entertaining.</SPAN></P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Geekyone on <SPAN class=date_text>03-27-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:07 PM</SPAN></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dude Amends kicks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], its a T6 spell that you put on a target and it gives you a percentage of their hate, then theres Consecrate, which is a 1 min aoe, which procs every few seconds... then theres our T6 move CASTIGATE!!! with castigate you pretty much beg mobs to debuff you coz u literally throw it right back at them <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I love my pally <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[k9quaint]

Between my taunts, wards, heals, LoH, stuns, and knockdowns, it is very hard to impossible to take down our healer while I am still alive. Resisting stifles & mezzes are my #1 priority right now, followed closely by resisting every form of spell (wisdom & divine bulwark work towards this) since CC prevents me from keeping our healer(s) alive. Next on my list of priorities is making my heals more effective in terms of Hit Points Healed per Second. My job is spot healing/warding and disrupting the enemy assist train long enough for us to CC them and/or neutralize their casters. Finally, Divine Barrier to survive might be overkill, but I am not one to overestimate what can be accomplished while immune to damage. My job isn't DPS. I hire rangers/wizards/swashbucklers for that and they do it better than I ever could.If I am spending most of the fight DPSing I am either solo (which is the paladin's weakest playstyle) or the other group is no threat to us.  Neither situation requires AA points since, I will never be an above average solo class in PvP no matter how many points I spend, and spending points to optimize for situations that already have a 99% win rate is silly. I am ludicrously difficult to kill 1v1, so most of the time I am solo I am not expecting to get kills but instead to survive and accomplish a goal which is oblique to PvP (a perfect goal to have when no PvP group is available).<div></div>

[Supernova17]

<blockquote><hr>Daydeee wrote:<div></div> <p>Also to note crusaders as of level 35 is the only class capable of dispelling magical effect on mobs....</p> <hr></blockquote>Negative. As of their early 20's, Swashbucklers can dispell magic effects (wards, regens, reactives, certian buffs) from mobs, Brigands can dispell divine effects (priest and crusader buffs) and all Mages from their earliest levels can dispell Magic effects. I don't know about the Bard's and Enchanters (beyond the pre 10 spell), but one would assume that they could dispell as well.<div></div>

[Seidhkona]

I absolutely LOVE Consecrate, the level 55 AOE pally spell.  It just IS the Holy Hand Grenade! <div></div>

[Ridea]

<DIV>I personally love my paladin. Honestly, if you dont like a class, i dont think you need to get a 7 page conversation going about why; just go pick a different one</DIV>

[Xan]

Ok.. first of all.. all fighter classes use taunt to finish HO's... sheesh.. so pointing out on a paladin is just dumb... second.. Paladin may be a boring class to you... but thats just you... I find the paladin quite accomplishing to play.. I can solo things Ive noticed alot of other tank classes cannot.. Its in the player.. not the class on how well and how fun a class is.. period.. Ive got many people who call on me to come tank things even over guardians and berserkers.. Im sorry.. but no specific tank class is better than another.. its all in how you play the class.. Some people find different aspects of different classes better and fun.. and quite frankly.. Ive on many occasions out tanked a guardian.. mainly cause I know how to work a paladin and how to really make maximum use of their abilities.. its why I hate seeing class bashing.. no one class is better than another.. all classes have their strong points and weak points.. and if the player knows what they are doing and understands the mechanics of their class, they can more than cover their weak points easily.. People who sit there and bash other classes, show a great deal of ignorance imho. Now me.. I find Guardian a boring class to play.. but thats just me.. doesnt mean its a bad class... just not versatile enough for me.. I like Paladins because i can solo well. I can solo many things some classes cannot.. I can tank for a group, even withouta healer thanks to wards and heals. Just... seriously.. people need to stop bashing other classes and just focus on their own.. its pretty pathetic.. everyone has a preference.. if you dont like it.. shut up.. sheesh