New Paladin Progression - Farewell Fighter/Crusader

[Rochir]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>We can now become Paladins at level 1 (WoW), yes the fighter and the crusader are gone.  We start wearing plate armor at level 1 on on the island.   The island is now split into qeynos and freeport islands.   You get a few Paladin item quests including a final quest for a nice two-handed greatsword that hits like a 2 hander but looks and acts like a 1-hander (rests on your hip, not your back).    The boatride and the Qeynos citizenship quest is gone.   You will get racial quests in your hometown when you arrive from the island. </div><div> </div><div>We start with a few spells and CAs:</div><div> </div><div>1.  Faithful Swing (no more Wild Swing).</div><div>2.  Righteous Anger.</div><div>3.  A taunt.</div><div> </div><div>and a few others.    Our new low-level spells and CAs have very long recast times.    Our low level tanking ability seems somewhat improved but our dps is much lower.   If you want to check out the new Paladin progression, make a character on the test server.   The Paladin trainer is now at the bottom of the Palace steps in North Q.</div><div> </div><div>If we are truly going to be Paladins from level 1, we need to get some sort of healing spell on the island.    Faithful swing does not cut it, it heals for +2 per hit.   We need at least one simple healing spell that can be used to heal ourselves and others.    Given the nerf in dps at low levels (we are no longer fighters), we need a real heal to compensate for it.</div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><div><span class="time_text">If they are going to make us real Paladins starting at level 1, they need to give us a real heal (others and ourselves) before level 5 and resurrection by level 20.    There are 5 things that define a Paladin:</span></div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><div><span class="time_text">1.  The ability to melee.</span></div><div><span class="time_text">2.  The ability to tank (wear plate armor and carry a shield).</span></div><div><span class="time_text">3.  The ability to use holy/divine magic.</span></div><div><span class="time_text">4.  The ability to heal.</span></div><div><span class="time_text">5.  The ability to resurrect other players.</span></div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><div><span class="time_text">I would suggest a resurrection quest (quest whose reward is the ability to resurrect other players) before level 20.   If we start being Paladins at level 1, then level 44 is waaaaaay too long to wait for the ability to resurrect and level 22 is waay to long to wait for the ability to heal ourselves AND other players.   I think we should have a slow heal at level 1 and a primary heal at level 3 which would match our current Paladin progression starting at level 20.   We also need a weakened out-of combat rez before level 20 and our main, in-combat rez at level 40.   The current Paladin comes into its own at  about level 50.   50 levels is a long time to wait to become a full-fledged Paladin.</span></div><div><span class="time_text"><p>The new progression was not my idea.   I never suggested it.   I liked the fighter and the crusader.   They are both superior to the "Paladin" on test.   The new progression is influenced by WoW.   For those of you who have played a Paladin in WoW, imagine coming to try a Paladin EQ2 (having never played a Paladin in EQ2) and finding that you cant heal until level 22 and rez until 44.   If it were me, I would go back to WoW.   <span class="time_text">SOE, if you are going to go through with making us Paladins from level 1, then please make us real Paladins by level 20 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p></span></div><p>The new Paladin progression has zero effect on my current main Paladin character.   I am very pleased with him for PvP or PvE.   However, I will be creating a Paladin on one of the new PvP servers when KoS goes live.   My concern is for those who will be creating a new Paladin on the PvP servers or any server.   The only way to experience the new Paladin progression is to log onto the test sever, create a new Paladin and play it until about level 7 or 8.   I hope that more of you will do that and respond in this thread.   Please post your thoughts whether you agree with me or not.</p><span class="time_text"><p>Here is a screenshot of a level 7 new progression Paladin:</p><p><img alt="Image hosting by Photobucket" src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a290/blackweb1/EQ2_000008.jpg"></p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:36 AM</span></p>

[Goodwill]

SOE is going mad over WOW sell so good, they try to make eq2 just like WOW.This is such a bad move, the subclass thing is so great... WHY SOE WHY......<div></div>

[Rochir]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Goodwill wrote:SOE is going mad over WOW sell so good, they try to make eq2 just like WOW.This is such a bad move, the subclass thing is so great... WHY SOE WHY......<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>If we are no longer crusaders, then SOE should make us into real paladins starting at the lowest levels.    We must be able to heal ourselves and others and resurrect other players at much lower levels than we can now.   The ability to heal and rez defines who we are as Paladins.</p><p>The fact that we are unable to heal until level 22 and unable to rez until 44 puts us at a major disadvantage for PvP until we are 45.    The ability to rez can be huge in PvP and we all know how important healing is in PvP <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:34 PM</span></p>

[Eriol]

Just to play Devil's advocate, Paladins in EQ1 couldn't even rez until after expansions.I'm not saying you're wrong on what needs to be done, but just don't say "That's what Paladins are" to justify it.

[Rochir]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eriol wrote:Just to play Devil's advocate, Paladins in EQ1 couldn't even rez until after expansions.I'm not saying you're wrong on what needs to be done, but just don't say "That's what Paladins are" to justify it.<hr></blockquote><p>We are getting a complete revamp for levels 1-19.   The new "Paladin" in EQ2 will be nothing but useless dead weight until level 22 in PvP.  We will be of little more use until level 44 in group or raid PvP.   The "Crusader"  label is fitting for a Paladin who can neither rez nor heal.   In WoW, Paladins can heal at level 1 and rez at level 12.  </p><p>My point is this: if SOE is going to call us "Paladin" at level 1, then make us into real Paladins :smileywink:</p>

[oneeyedlotus]

<div></div>Overall i like the system placed on test, but as far a a lower  level heal (before 10) and any rez abilities i have to say that I agree with SOE on this. If paladins where to have a lower lvl heal that would make us a bit overpowered and as far as a rez goes waiting to 40s for it is the way it should be that is not a class defining ability in most respects more of a small piece of added utliity. We are a preist fighter hybrid but giving us all the priest utlility at 20 would mean having to give other classes some of the late game utility that is well worth waiting for and well deserved once we do earn it. It was one of the spells i looked forward to recieving and I think most paladins would agree with me on this, whats next you want a lvl 7 version of consercrate?  <span><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><img src="http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/stoneyeq/stoneysig60.jpg"><div></div>

[Rochir]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>oneeyedlotus wrote:<div></div>Overall i like the system placed on test, but as far a a lower  level heal (before 10) and any rez abilities i have to say that I agree with SOE on this. If paladins where to have a lower lvl heal that would make us a bit overpowered and as far as a rez goes waiting to 40s for it is the way it should be that is not a class defining ability in most respects more of a small piece of added utliity. We are a preist fighter hybrid but giving us all the priest utlility at 20 would mean having to give other classes some of the late game utility that is well worth waiting for and well deserved once we do earn it. It was one of the spells i looked forward to recieving and I think most paladins would agree with me on this, whats next you want a lvl 7 version of consercrate?  <span><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Paladins overpowered if we had a weak heal?   You must not have actually made a new "Paladin" on Test.   I made 2 of them.   Our self-healing hit, faithful swing is weak at best.   Our dps is pathetic.   The recast timers on our spells and CAs are painfully long.  Any current fighter can out-dps the new "Paladin".    Lets face it, PvP is going to become the dominant influence in this game and the new "Paladin" will be a joke in PvP until level 22.   For Paladins, the new progression is a massive nerf for levels 1-19.</p><p>Paladins dont kite very well in PvP.   In the time we will be waiting for our spells and CAs to become available in PvP, other, higher dps classes will be able to hit us serveral times.    What is worse, when we can finally cast something, we ill be unable to cast a heal on ourselves or anyone else until level 22.   If we want to participate in group PvP, we will not have rez until level 44.    Healer classes will be much more useful in PvP than Paladins.</p><p>If you think we will have a hard time finding a role in PvE, try finding one in PvP before level 50.    I can sum up the new "Paladin" for levels 1-22 or 44 like this:</p><p>1.  Horrendous DPS.   You can get a cup of coffee or read a book while you are waiting for your spells and CAs to recycle.</p><p>2.  Crap defense (avoidance and mitigation).</p><p>3.  No heal or rez.   All we have is a self-healing hit with a long recast timer.    Our self-heal depends on our dps and we have crap for dps :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>I saw Paladins going down left and right on the new Queens island.   On the other hand, other plate classes seemed to fare quite well.  I watched a gaurdians and berzerkers soloing groups of mobs on the new island and they seemed quite comfortable.   I spent half my time getting repairs or running for my life.   We have had a role reversal.   Paladins, maybe the best plate class for soloing now, will become the worst after PvP/KoS is released until level 44.</p><p>We need healing spell before level 10 and rez before level 20 just to be able to survive and be useful in PvP and PvE.    No one is going to be talking about being the new "Paladin" overpowered.   Instead they will be flaming nerfed "Paladin" in these forums and rerolling the other plate or healer classes.  You will be seeing few Paladins in the end game in PvP because it will be so frustrating to get there.  After playing two of the new "Paladin" and watching gaurdians, templars and furys, I found myself wondering why I was playing a Paladin at all and considering rerolling one of those classes.</p><p>Please SOE, give me a heal by level 10 and rez by level 20.    I would much rather play a fighter/crusader from levels 1-19 than the new Paladin.   From levels 1-22 playing the new "Paladin", you can expect to be out-dpsed by normal mobs (dont even bother with heroics), owned by other players and spending a lot of time at the mender.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:57 PM</span></p>

[EQ2Playa432]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>We can now become Paladins at level 1 (WoW), yes the crusader is gone.  We start wearing plate armor at level 1 on on the island.  </div><div> </div><div><font color="#ccff00">First of all this is probably more from EQ1, since in EQ1 you choose your class at the start.</font></div><div><font color="#ccff00"></font> </div><div><snip></div><div> </div><div>If we are truly going to be Paladins from level 1, we need to get some sort of healing spell on the island.    Faithful swing does not cut it.   We need at least one simple healing spell that can be used to heal ourselves and others.    Given the nerf in dps at low levels (we are no longer fighters), we need a real heal to compensate for it.</div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ccff00">I agree that we should get a heal on the island, even if 1/4 of the priest's heals.</font></span></div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ccff00"></font></span> </div><div><span class="time_text"><snip></span></div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><div><span class="time_text"></span></div><div><span class="time_text">I would suggest a resurrection quest (quest whose reward is the ability to resurrect other players) at level 10 or 20 for Paladins.   If we start being Paladins at level 1, then level 44 is waaaaaay too long to wait for the ability to resurrect and level 22 is waay to long to wait for the ability to heal ourselves AND other players.</span></div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ccff00">I think that rez at lv 44 is a good idea. It is a special ability, and you should earn it by leveling to 40.</font></span></div><p></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ccff00">My comments in yellow.</font>

[Eriol]

Pally rez is not essential by any measure. Your other points are valid, but rez is not core by any stretch. By your argument, necros should get rez that early too.

[Nimington]

<div></div>Well a heal around 10 would make since to me, but a rez at 20? heck what level do priests get rez probably not far from there.  As for getting rid of the crusader, fighter, mage etc I like the idea, it lets people know they don't like the general way a class is to allot sooner.  Really you didn't know what you were going to be able to do until AFTER 20, generally closer to 30 gave you a good idea, and for new players to the game that can be frustrating to put all their effort into a toon and find out it's not what they thought.  That being said, it will only work if the class looks and plays like a 40ish at low levels.  Thus a heal and or a ward in the pre 20 range would be a good idea, simply because those are a major part of how a pally does things in combat.  A rez is not so critical as it is really an out of combat thing (yes it can be cast in battle but it's not what most people would consider part of their standard casting order <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )

[Rochir]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>EQ2Playa432 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>We can now become Paladins at level 1 (WoW), yes the crusader is gone.  We start wearing plate armor at level 1 on on the island.  </div><div> </div><div><font color="#ccff00">First of all this is probably more from EQ1, since in EQ1 you choose your class at the start.</font></div><div><font color="#ccff00"></font> </div><div></div><div> </div><div>If we are truly going to be Paladins from level 1, we need to get some sort of healing spell on the island.    Faithful swing does not cut it.   We need at least one simple healing spell that can be used to heal ourselves and others.    Given the nerf in dps at low levels (we are no longer fighters), we need a real heal to compensate for it.</div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ccff00">I agree that we should get a heal on the island, even if 1/4 of the priest's heals.</font></span></div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ccff00"></font></span> </div><div><span class="time_text"></span></div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><div><span class="time_text"></span></div><div><span class="time_text">I would suggest a resurrection quest (quest whose reward is the ability to resurrect other players) at level 10 or 20 for Paladins.   If we start being Paladins at level 1, then level 44 is waaaaaay too long to wait for the ability to resurrect and level 22 is waay to long to wait for the ability to heal ourselves AND other players.</span></div><div><span class="time_text"></span> </div><div><span class="time_text"><font color="#ccff00">I think that rez at lv 44 is a good idea. It is a special ability, and you should earn it by leveling to 40.</font></span></div><p></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ccff00">My comments in yellow.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Thanks for the post and you make some good points.    What we need is 2-tiered rez system:</p><p>1.  Move our current in combat rez to level 40.</p><p>2.  Give us a weakened non-combat rez before level 20.</p><p>and give us a simple heal before level 10.</p><p>We could also use some of our crusader dps which has sunk to the bottom of the sea with the origonal Island of Refuge.</p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:09 PM</span></p>

[Brigh]

" Lets face it, PvP is going to become the dominant influence in this game"Since when is PvP so important? PvP in EQ has always been a secondary, at best, play style that people want.Those that find it important will play in PvP servers.I could care less.

[Rochir]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Brigh wrote:" Lets face it, PvP is going to become the dominant influence in this game"Since when is PvP so important? PvP in EQ has always been a secondary, at best, play style that people want.Those that find it important will play in PvP servers.I could care less.<hr></blockquote>That is up to you, but the primary topic in this forum for the next few months will be PvP.   Post level 22, the Paladin is fairly well balanced.   Pre level 22, the Paladin has been severely nerfed in the new progression.   This will affect all new Paladins.   It is never good to get off to a bad start with a character.   The new level 1-21 Paladin is extremely weak in PvE, barely able to kill normal yellow mobs.   Other fighter classes on the other hand seem to be doing quite well in the new progression.<p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:08 PM</span></p>

[Paladri]

<div></div>Now now now, seriously what you are suggesting is basically a WOW paladin, and please ANYTHING but WoW paladins.I dont really know how much will this affect the progression of lvl 1 - 20 advancement, but seriously as long as this class remains like it is now (being able to tank, maybe improve it a bit to be at pair with guardians a bit more, remaining our mit/m.def), but please dont turn us into healers, the fact that we can heal doesnt make us healers, if thats the case we would have rolled a Templar.In my opinion the healing power is fairly balanced on this game, on our class at least, we dont heal much but we have a ward, we are not anywere close to a main healer but we still can help out on healing when is needed at cost of a lot of power wich is good. We have a really nice AoE heal and a Resurrection with 100% health on 1 min timer at 44, what else can we ask. Im quite happy with the class at lvl 47, but i still feel like we need to be really viable tanks when we are 60, i keep asking my guild why they always use guardians, and seriously to design a class that is always the MT is really bothering me, we are capable tanks but for some reazon they always turn us down, if they can correct that, this game will definitly have the best paladin ever.About PVP frankly i dont care, is really hard to make a pvp game balanced, i really hope that the pvp on EQ2 doesnt get a sergfest or classwise imbalanced like WoW. But considering the racial traits for this game and other mechanics i think will be quite hard to deal with something good in pvp here. Seriously i dont mind this is a pve primary game, i dont care for the 5.5million of fanboys that blizz have, furthemore i dont really want such a spoiled community tho.After 10 months im 100% that i dont want a paladin like that, even after being full of epics, being lutenant commander and top 50 on the ranks, the class just suck.<div></div>

[Rochir]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Paladrink wrote:<div></div>Now now now, seriously what you are suggesting is basically a WOW paladin, and please ANYTHING but WoW paladins.I dont really know how much will this affect the progression of lvl 1 - 20 advancement, but seriously as long as this class remains like it is now (being able to tank, maybe improve it a bit to be at pair with guardians a bit more, remaining our mit/m.def), but please dont turn us into healers, the fact that we can heal doesnt make us healers, if thats the case we would have rolled a Templar.In my opinion the healing power is fairly balanced on this game, on our class at least, we dont heal much but we have a ward, we are not anywere close to a main healer but we still can help out on healing when is needed at cost of a lot of power wich is good. We have a really nice AoE heal and a Resurrection with 100% health on 1 min timer at 44, what else can we ask. Im quite happy with the class at lvl 47, but i still feel like we need to be really viable tanks when we are 60, i keep asking my guild why they always use guardians, and seriously to design a class that is always the MT is really bothering me, we are capable tanks but for some reazon they always turn us down, if they can correct that, this game will definitly have the best paladin ever.About PVP frankly i dont care, is really hard to make a pvp game balanced, i really hope that the pvp on EQ2 doesnt get a sergfest or classwise imbalanced like WoW. But considering the racial traits for this game and other mechanics i think will be quite hard to deal with something good in pvp here. Seriously i dont mind this is a pve primary game, i dont care for the 5.5million of fanboys that blizz have, furthemore i dont really want such a spoiled community tho.After 10 months im 100% that i dont want a paladin like that, even after being full of epics, being lutenant commander and top 50 on the ranks, the class just suck.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Just suggesting a REAL Paladin.  A Paladin who cannot heal and cannot rez is not a REAL Paladin.   The level 1-8 Paladin I played on the new island was a Paladin in name only.   It was awful.   I would much rather have the generic fighter back <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>You can expect to see more gaurdians, a lot more.   Most will give up on their Paladins before they reach 20.</p>

[EvilIguana9]

Paladins should never ever be beating a priest at the priests core jobs.  Rezzing is a priest core ability, and if we got a rez that is better than theirs at the same level it would not be right.  I suppose I could perhaps be convinced to accept a weak out of combat rez at lower levels, but I still think I'm leaning towards keeping rez a higher end ability.  PvP should NOT be a concern at all right now, no matter how many times Rochir matter-of-factly repeats his opinions on the subject.  Basic PvE class balance comes first, then we can worry about pvp stuff.  Based on what I'm hearing the best course of action is just to make sure we have a heal early on in the game, and to get dps levels at the right place.  Rochir is an alarmist, an exaggerator, and likes to think he speaks for everyone.  Don't use him as your sole source of info on this stuff. <div></div>

[Rochir]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>EvilIguana966 wrote:Paladins should never ever be beating a priest at the priests core jobs.  Rezzing is a priest core ability, and if we got a rez that is better than theirs at the same level it would not be right.  I suppose I could perhaps be convinced to accept a weak out of combat rez at lower levels, but I still think I'm leaning towards keeping rez a higher end ability.  PvP should NOT be a concern at all right now, no matter how many times Rochir matter-of-factly repeats his opinions on the subject.  Basic PvE class balance comes first, then we can worry about pvp stuff.  Based on what I'm hearing the best course of action is just to make sure we have a heal early on in the game, and to get dps levels at the right place.  Rochir is an alarmist, an exaggerator, and likes to think he speaks for everyone.  Don't use him as your sole source of info on this stuff. <div></div><hr> </blockquote><p>You say I am an alarmist and an exxagerator.   Have you played a "Paladin" on test?   I have, 2 of them.   Make one, see how you like it in PvE, then imagine yourself fighting some of the other classes you see on the island.   The problem is you dont know what you are talking about because you do not have hands-on experience.   Go ahead, log onto Test, make a Paladin and try it.   I would be interested in your comments.   You may be pleased at first that we have been given righteous anger and faithful swing but when you find out how long it takes to cast them, how weak they are and how slowly we can cast heroic opportunities, you will probably be wishing you had rolled another class <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>There are no more "priests".   If what you say where true about our doing a "priests core job" then why do we have heals or a rez at all?   Because we are PALADINS!  I never suggested that SOE change the class progressions for levels 0-19.   It is obvious to anyone who has played WoW that the new progression is an imitation of the WoW progression which probably in the long run is a good idea.   My point about the new Paladin progression is this: if SOE must change the progression of the fighter/crusader/Paladin they should do it right.   If they are going to call us Paladins then we should have Paladin abilities.</p><p>The weakness of the so-called level 1-9 "Paladin" was not exxagerated.   In fact, I have understated it.   It is a regular occurence to die to groups of weak, normal white-con mobs (even groups of down-arrow normals) on the island.   We have no self heal other than a weak healing hit, Faithful Swing, that heals for only +2 per hit, yes, only +2 per hit.  PvE, the new level 1-9 Paladin is unbalanced and weaker than any of the other fighter classes from what I could see.   I did not see monks, gaurdians or berzerkers having any trouble soloing any mobs on the Island, only Paladins.   There is one named mob that drops a shield that we desperately need.   I tried to solo him, got spanked.   Then I saw a gaurdian of the same level solo him with ease.    Something else that was very telling.   The only class on the island that was looking for groups was "Paladins".    It took a while for me to find a group because no one else but me needed help completing their quests.   I ended up grouping with, you guessed it, another Paladin :smileyvery-happy:  Oh and guess what else?  We both died trying to kill a named mob because we could not HEAL each other! <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   We had to get a templar to help us finish the quest.   These were all normal mobs, I did not see any heroics on the new island.   </p><p>Paladins who cannot heal and rez are not Paladins.   I dont know what class that was that I played on the island.   It was not a fighter or crusader and it sure as heck wasnt a Paladin :smileymad:</p><p><span class="time_text">Another thing SOE, if you are going to give us a set of newbie armor on the island at least make it a full set and make it match <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:07 PM</span></p>

[Rhianni]

<div>Yes you are an alarmist.  You are taking what you think is a REAL paladin and saying SOE's version is wrong.  You say that PvP will be the dominant part of EQ2 and that it will be the dominant part of the paladin forums.  I can see your point that for PvP a paladin with rez will be important.  All these other points you make are really unecessary for your arguement except to be an alarmist.</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Goodwill wrote:SOE is going mad over WOW sell so good, they try to make eq2 just like WOW.This is such a bad move, the subclass thing is so great... WHY SOE WHY......<div></div><hr></blockquote>How about you go and PLAY the changes on test before making statements like that.The changes are good, infact GREAT,  Its how the game should have been from day 1.  The isle is fun, the classes are great to play and its like they added 20 levels to the bottom of the game.  Go and try it and then you'll know "WHY SOE WHY".</span></div>

[Rochir]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<div>Yes you are an alarmist.  You are taking what you think is a REAL paladin and saying SOE's version is wrong.  You say that PvP will be the dominant part of EQ2 and that it will be the dominant part of the paladin forums.  I can see your point that for PvP a paladin with rez will be important.  All these other points you make are really unecessary for your arguement except to be an alarmist.</div><hr></blockquote><p>You have nothing to say about the new progression because you have not experienced it so you resort to name-calling.   Again, go to test, make a "Paladin" then come back and share your thoughts.   Until you have done that, you are just blowing hot air about the new "Paladin" progression.    I think choosing our classes during character creation is a good idea.    However, this puts the burden on SOE to get our classes right from level 1.    They have not done that with the Paladin on the island.    Paladins are not defined by faithful swing.    Paladins are defined by the ability to melee, tank, heal (resurrect) and spellcast.    If SOE wants to call us "Paladin" at level 1 then they need to give us "Paladin" abilities.    Currently we become Paladins at 20 where we get a slow self-heal, then we get our primary heal at level 22.    Using the same math we should get a slow self-heal at level 1 and our primary heal at level 3 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I will add that we need a weakened out of combat rez by level 20 that should be a quest reward.</p><p>There is something that everyone here needs to wrap their brain around.   The fighter is gone, the crusader is gone.    We are now "Paladin" from level 1.   You need to stop thinking of a level 5 character as a fighter and a level 15 character as a crusader and start thinking of them as "Paladin".    Do you want the "Paladin" label without "Paladin" abilities?   If SOE is going to call us "Paladin" they give us "Paladin" abilities at level 1-19.</p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:38 AM</span></p>

[KBern]

<div></div><p>This is not a PvP game so PvP better not be a "major topic" on these forums.</p><p>And no changes...NO CHANGES...should be made simply for PvP in mind. </p><p>That will ruin this game.</p><p> </p>

[Dujoaki]

I Can understand your thoughts and concerns, but frankly seeing a lvl 4-5 pally rez someone, would simply be nuts.,Compare it to the other classes. A lvl 3 Dirge isn't gonna have Evac till lvl 25, but does that stop him from having DPS, sneak, ect, that define a Dirge?I have a lvl 15 Pally on Test, started from 1 and the first 1-7 lvls were a bit difficult i admit, but I was still able to solo up to the cave, group up hold agro, done.If your talking about giving the Pallys all the skills at the low lvls, SOE would need to do it for all of them, ergo give Nec's rez at lvl 4 like the pallys.  The Characters would simply be to strong.  Granted I'd love to see a minor heal spell and a few other things a little faster in lvl progression, that doesn't make 1-20 Paladins, "Not a Paladin".<div></div>

[Goodwill]

I see no reason to give rez to low levels paladins. But yes a minor heal, and some self heals would be ok.. and what makes a real paladin - some more dmg against undead....<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

most of you miss the point of these changes.  Your not supposed to be a fully functioning Pally at lvl 1.  Your supposed to have aplly ike abilities, not all of them and develop as you go along rather than being a generic fighter for 10 levels and a crusader for another 10.  Now you have 20 levels to slowly become more Pally like until lvl 20 where you will be the same as a lvl 20 pally ever was.  The idea isnt to make you a full pally at lvl 5 with just scaled down versions of a lvl 25 pallies spells.  Its certainly not about getting class defining abilities at lvl 1.  The other classes are in the same boat as you guys.<div></div>

[Rhianni]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<div>Yes you are an alarmist.  You are taking what you think is a REAL paladin and saying SOE's version is wrong.  You say that PvP will be the dominant part of EQ2 and that it will be the dominant part of the paladin forums.  I can see your point that for PvP a paladin with rez will be important.  All these other points you make are really unecessary for your arguement except to be an alarmist.</div><hr></blockquote><p>You have nothing to say about the new progression because you have not experienced it so you resort to name-calling.   Again, go to test, make a "Paladin" then come back and share your thoughts.   Until you have done that, you are just blowing hot air about the new "Paladin" progression.    I think choosing our classes during character creation is a good idea.    However, this puts the burden on SOE to get our classes right from level 1.    They have not done that with the Paladin on the island.    Paladins are not defined by faithful swing.    Paladins are defined by the ability to melee, tank, heal (resurrect) and spellcast.    If SOE wants to call us "Paladin" at level 1 then they need to give us "Paladin" abilities.    Currently we become Paladins at 20 where we get a slow self-heal, then we get our primary heal at level 22.    Using the same math we should get a slow self-heal at level 1 and our primary heal at level 3 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I will add that we need a weakened out of combat rez by level 20 that should be a quest reward.</p><p>There is something that everyone here needs to wrap their brain around.   The fighter is gone, the crusader is gone.    We are now "Paladin" from level 1.   You need to stop thinking of a level 5 character as a fighter and a level 15 character as a crusader and start thinking of them as "Paladin".    Do you want the "Paladin" label without "Paladin" abilities?   If SOE is going to call us "Paladin" they give us "Paladin" abilities at level 1-19.</p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:38 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>1: How do you know if I have played test or not?  More jumping to conclusions.</p><p>2: I never said anything about the differences between test paladin and live paladin nor do I blow hot air in support or against the new changes.  I am commenting on your statements that a Paladin has to be your way and none other.</p><p>3: Your argument that a paladin HAS to have 100% of its abilites early is your opinion and I can respect that.  However its not a set in stone rule for paladins everywhere.  Its SOEs game they can do what they want.  Its pretty obvious that they believe in a staggered ability progression.  Summoners dont get all 3 types of pets all at once.  Paladins dont get rez until later. SOE has no burden in getting our classes 'right' at level 1 anymore then they have to do it at lvl 20.  Thats an idea that no mmorp anywhere does.</p><p>4: Great more things that others NEED and HAVE to do.  You tell me that I need to stop thinking about 5th level fighters after only having 4 lines of text from me on an entirely different subject.  You are the one so stuck on labels about what needs to be called what not all of us are bound by that.</p>

[Eriol]

Roch, your argument would be a helluva lot stronger if you dropped the "necessity to rez" tack you seem to be on. In this ENTIRE game, the priests have rez, and 1 sub-class of the other 3 archetypes have it: necromancers, dirges, and paladins. It has NOTHING to do with our core tanking ability, and is something 100% non-essential to be called a "paladin".If you really want to go technical about what a paladin "is", then go back to D&D (which basically all modern CRPGs are at least LOOSELY based on). What do you know... NO REZ! Look at EQ1 at release. Paladin class... NO REZ! Rez is something that came later for EQ1, and while WoW just put it in from the get-go, that has more to do with Shamans in WoW than anything: so that each side would have an extra non-combat rezzer. Rez is not a core "paladin" ability at all: It was added later to the "generally accepted" concept of a Paladin (and that's great), but that doesn't make it a "core ability" of being a paladin.Better damage, some healing (I'm with you there), etc, are all points that are probably valid (didn't make a pally on test, so I'm far from sure) and need to be early on (especially healing), but the rez argument is just killing the rest of what you're saying. Rez in EQ2 is a priest-specific ability, with a few other sub-classes being given the ability later on in the game. LATE in the game. For early-game, this remains a priest ability ONLY.Just get off the rez tangent, and focus on what actually needs to change. This is NOT an issue that does.

[oneeyedlotus]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>oneeyedlotus wrote:<div></div>Overall i like the system placed on test, but as far a a lower  level heal (before 10) and any rez abilities i have to say that I agree with SOE on this. If paladins where to have a lower lvl heal that would make us a bit overpowered and as far as a rez goes waiting to 40s for it is the way it should be that is not a class defining ability in most respects more of a small piece of added utliity. We are a preist fighter hybrid but giving us all the priest utlility at 20 would mean having to give other classes some of the late game utility that is well worth waiting for and well deserved once we do earn it. It was one of the spells i looked forward to recieving and I think most paladins would agree with me on this, whats next you want a lvl 7 version of consercrate?  <span><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Paladins overpowered if we had a weak heal?   You must not have actually made a new "Paladin" on Test.   I made 2 of them.   Our self-healing hit, faithful swing is weak at best.   Our dps is pathetic.   The recast timers on our spells and CAs are painfully long.  Any current fighter can out-dps the new "Paladin".    Lets face it, PvP is going to become the dominant influence in this game and the new "Paladin" will be a joke in PvP until level 22.   For Paladins, the new progression is a massive nerf for levels 1-19.</p><p>Paladins dont kite very well in PvP.   In the time we will be waiting for our spells and CAs to become available in PvP, other, higher dps classes will be able to hit us serveral times.    What is worse, when we can finally cast something, we ill be unable to cast a heal on ourselves or anyone else until level 22.   If we want to participate in group PvP, we will not have rez until level 44.    Healer classes will be much more useful in PvP than Paladins.</p><p>If you think we will have a hard time finding a role in PvE, try finding one in PvP before level 50.    I can sum up the new "Paladin" for levels 1-22 or 44 like this:</p><p>1.  Horrendous DPS.   You can get a cup of coffee or read a book while you are waiting for your spells and CAs to recycle.</p><p>2.  Crap defense (avoidance and mitigation).</p><p>3.  No heal or rez.   All we have is a self-healing hit with a long recast timer.    Our self-heal depends on our dps and we have crap for dps :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>I saw Paladins going down left and right on the new Queens island.   On the other hand, other plate classes seemed to fare quite well.  I watched a gaurdians and berzerkers soloing groups of mobs on the new island and they seemed quite comfortable.   I spent half my time getting repairs or running for my life.   We have had a role reversal.   Paladins, maybe the best plate class for soloing now, will become the worst after PvP/KoS is released until level 44.</p><p>We need healing spell before level 10 and rez before level 20 just to be able to survive and be useful in PvP and PvE.    No one is going to be talking about being the new "Paladin" overpowered.   Instead they will be flaming nerfed "Paladin" in these forums and rerolling the other plate or healer classes.  You will be seeing few Paladins in the end game in PvP because it will be so frustrating to get there.  After playing two of the new "Paladin" and watching gaurdians, templars and furys, I found myself wondering why I was playing a Paladin at all and considering rerolling one of those classes.</p><p>Please SOE, give me a heal by level 10 and rez by level 20.    I would much rather play a fighter/crusader from levels 1-19 than the new Paladin.   From levels 1-22 playing the new "Paladin", you can expect to be out-dpsed by normal mobs (dont even bother with heroics), owned by other players and spending a lot of time at the mender.</p><p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:57 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I have played a paladin on test and though have a small heal at 10 or so would be a help i dont think its nesacery you also need to remeber that this is a PVE game and not a PVP game. as has been stated countless times there is no valid arguement that pallys will suck at pvp until 50+ you just need to deal with that fact. you do make a valid point about our recast timers but we have been shouting that at the devs for awhile now with no luck. If PvP from 1-20 is a big issue for you then dont make a pally there are better suited classes. For the most part there really shouldnt be any PvP until the 20+ range anyway as the lower lvl zones are still relativly city specific.  20-50 we may see some problems but honestly if your a decent PvPer you should be fine.  and just one other thing if you feel we need a heal at these lvls post it in test forums not the pally forums ( you may have didnt check) but no need to start an uproar over something that may be compltly changed before going live. comments like this thread are what give pallys a reputation for being whiners. Not meaning that as an insult but this isnt the place to be debating whats going on on the test server.As for a rez if they would give us a pre 40s one i would be highly against it.Just my 2 cp<img src="http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/stoneyeq/stoneysig60.jpg"></span><div></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div></div><b><img src="http://www.t-shirthumor.com/Merchant2/graphics/fullsize/mstr_lg.gif"></b><p></p><p>Message Edited by Sirlutt on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:27 PM</span></p>

[Rochir]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eriol wrote:Roch, your argument would be a helluva lot stronger if you dropped the "necessity to rez" tack you seem to be on. In this ENTIRE game, the priests have rez, and 1 sub-class of the other 3 archetypes have it: necromancers, dirges, and paladins. It has NOTHING to do with our core tanking ability, and is something 100% non-essential to be called a "paladin".If you really want to go technical about what a paladin "is", then go back to D&D (which basically all modern CRPGs are at least LOOSELY based on). What do you know... NO REZ! Look at EQ1 at release. Paladin class... NO REZ! Rez is something that came later for EQ1, and while WoW just put it in from the get-go, that has more to do with Shamans in WoW than anything: so that each side would have an extra non-combat rezzer. Rez is not a core "paladin" ability at all: It was added later to the "generally accepted" concept of a Paladin (and that's great), but that doesn't make it a "core ability" of being a paladin.Better damage, some healing (I'm with you there), etc, are all points that are probably valid (didn't make a pally on test, so I'm far from sure) and need to be early on (especially healing), but the rez argument is just killing the rest of what you're saying. Rez in EQ2 is a priest-specific ability, with a few other sub-classes being given the ability later on in the game. LATE in the game. For early-game, this remains a priest ability ONLY.Just get off the rez tangent, and focus on what actually needs to change. This is NOT an issue that does.<hr></blockquote><p>Dont worry about the "Paladin" on test being overpowered, it is currently underpowered.   My concern is that young Paladins enjoy playing their class and be able to survive in PvP and PvE.   Currently, the Paladin on test has difficulty surviving outside of a group in PvE.    I created 2 Paladins, the first to investigate adventuring in the new progression, the second to investigate crafting.    After I got my first Paladin to Qeynos at level 7 or 8, I stopped playing him.   He is too weak to survive outside of oakmyst, the peat bog or the forest ruins in PvP or PvE.   Leveling him was painfully slow on the island after the first few quests.   He is not ready for PvP or PvE.</p><p>SOE has added 19 levels to the Paladin progression.   I did not ask them to do this nor as far as I know did anyone else other than those who play WoW.   We have 19 new "Paladin" levels, what should be done with them?   According to SOE, the Paladin should get a slow, large heal at the first Paladin level and a simple primary heal at the third level.   Why should a "Paladin" starting at level 1 be disadvantaged compared to one starting at level 20?   If as some say, healing makes the Paladin overpowered at level 1, then it makes the Paladin overpowered at level 22.   The argument that healing and ressurection make the Paladin overpowered holds no water.   Paladins who cannot heal or rez are not Paladins.</p><p>What I am asking SOE to do is to give the Paladin a weaker version of the same progression we currently have at level 20 at level 1.   Give us a simple, slow heal at level 1 and a primary heal at level 3.   Then give us a weak out-of combat rez sometime before level 20 and our full fledged in-combat rez at level 40.   I am not asking for a new or different Paladin.   I am asking SOE to give us a weaker version of the current level 20 Paladin starting at level 1.   In addition we need sufficient defense and dps to solo normal mobs.   SOE if you are going to call us Paladins at level 1, please dont make us wait until level 44 to become REAL Paladins.</p>

[Rochir]

<div></div><div></div>Edited to not respond to baiting <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:39 PM</span></p>

[OrcSlayer96]

<div>Hello all, one thing to consider on this post is that all the information that Rochir is testing off is what the devs have done RIGHT NOW,  it is still some time for them to tweak the spells and combats and is defintely not the time to say the sky is falling.  From the Information so far I would say that as long as they fix our DPS to be close to what we had in the fighter/crusader times and give us similar defense and avoidance to other fighter clases with the change, the majority of the problems are gone.  What is SOE's plan for healing spell versus level and when do we get either a self ward or target ward is anybodies guess.  One of my concerns is that when we recieve these new pallie spells that replace the fighter/crusader ones they will be app1 or 2 and not retain the spell level we had for the old abilities(for example i have a adept 3 in wild swing and taunt, does that mean they are not converted to adept3 of the "new abilities&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>I wiuld be more in favor of having a weak version of the heal/grp heal and ward but strongly disagree of having any type of rez below the level we have now.  reduce the casting times of some of the spells and increase the health back from faithful swing with a spell upgraded to app4 and higher. </div><div> </div><div>Even though we have been labeled as Rez bots before, our class has been defined by our ability to tank, hold agro, use of heals and wards, those define us more than anything else and our rez is extra icing on the cake.  Unless they intend to change our rez to 10 or 5 meter range instead of 1 meter it is more annoying than helpful in large raids.  Rez should stay as a level 44 spell that is granted to us for hard work in our profession, not a level 14 plus line of spells like so many others.  It has no bearing for us in lower levels to help us tank or solo and should not be included in the level1-19 spells.</div><div> </div><div>I think it is great for pallies to test with the new plalies on the test server but realize it is a test server and not live, please put your input to what needs to be changed in the spells and abilities and testing forum first...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Rochir]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>OrcSlayer96 wrote:<div>Hello all, one thing to consider on this post is that all the information that Rochir is testing off is what the devs have done RIGHT NOW,  it is still some time for them to tweak the spells and combats and is defintely not the time to say the sky is falling.  From the Information so far I would say that as long as they fix our DPS to be close to what we had in the fighter/crusader times and give us similar defense and avoidance to other fighter clases with the change, the majority of the problems are gone.  What is SOE's plan for healing spell versus level and when do we get either a self ward or target ward is anybodies guess.  One of my concerns is that when we recieve these new pallie spells that replace the fighter/crusader ones they will be app1 or 2 and not retain the spell level we had for the old abilities(for example i have a adept 3 in wild swing and taunt, does that mean they are not converted to adept3 of the "new abilities&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>I wiuld be more in favor of having a weak version of the heal/grp heal and ward but strongly disagree of having any type of rez below the level we have now.  reduce the casting times of some of the spells and increase the health back from faithful swing with a spell upgraded to app4 and higher. </div><div> </div><div>Even though we have been labeled as Rez bots before, our class has been defined by our ability to tank, hold agro, use of heals and wards, those define us more than anything else and our rez is extra icing on the cake.  Unless they intend to change our rez to 10 or 5 meter range instead of 1 meter it is more annoying than helpful in large raids.  Rez should stay as a level 44 spell that is granted to us for hard work in our profession, not a level 14 plus line of spells like so many others.  It has no bearing for us in lower levels to help us tank or solo and should not be included in the level1-19 spells.</div><div> </div><div>I think it is great for pallies to test with the new plalies on the test server but realize it is a test server and not live, please put your input to what needs to be changed in the spells and abilities and testing forum first...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>All the spells and CAs were app 1.   There is nowhere to buy App IIs on the island.   I found no rares when harvesting on the island.    There were no heroic mobs on the island.  The information I gave here is for Paladins not general test information.   As you said this could all change.   Some of our spells, CAs and dps needs to change.

[Rochir]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:most of you miss the point of these changes.  Your not supposed to be a fully functioning Pally at lvl 1.  Your supposed to have aplly ike abilities, not all of them and develop as you go along rather than being a generic fighter for 10 levels and a crusader for another 10.  Now you have 20 levels to slowly become more Pally like until lvl 20 where you will be the same as a lvl 20 pally ever was.  The idea isnt to make you a full pally at lvl 5 with just scaled down versions of a lvl 25 pallies spells.  Its certainly not about getting class defining abilities at lvl 1.  The other classes are in the same boat as you guys.<div></div><hr></blockquote>This statement is not correct.   Gaurdians are fully functioning gaurdians at level 1.   To be a fully functioning gaurdian, gaurdians must be strong tanks.   Gaurdians appear to be very strong tanks at level 1 and they have sufficient dps to start soloing immediately.    Paladins are not fully functioning Paladins at level 1.   Gaurdians will not be an endangered speicies after KoS goes live <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:30 PM</span></p>

[Kale]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:most of you miss the point of these changes.  Your not supposed to be a fully functioning Pally at lvl 1.  Your supposed to have aplly ike abilities, not all of them and develop as you go along rather than being a generic fighter for 10 levels and a crusader for another 10.  Now you have 20 levels to slowly become more Pally like until lvl 20 where you will be the same as a lvl 20 pally ever was.  The idea isnt to make you a full pally at lvl 5 with just scaled down versions of a lvl 25 pallies spells.  Its certainly not about getting class defining abilities at lvl 1.  The other classes are in the same boat as you guys.<div></div><hr></blockquote>This statement is not correct.   Gaurdians are fully functioning gaurdians at level 1.   To be a fully functioning gaurdian, gaurdians must be strong tanks.   Gaurdians appear to be very strong tanks at level 1 and they have sufficient dps to start soloing immediately.    Paladins are not fully functioning Paladins at level 1.   Gaurdians will not be an endangered speicies after KoS goes live <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:30 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Actually that statement is correct. You don't seem to understand how this game's mechanics work...<font color="#ccffff"><b>Paladins </b></font>have several abilities that when combined make us whole. Plate wearing + hit points (our ability to "tank&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, taunts, stuns, knockdowns, wards, heals, group heal, AE, stat buffs, procs, Lay on Hands, combat arts, DD spells and rez... The list is long.<b>You cannot give us all of those things at level 1</b>. Thus, you cannot call us a "Fully Functional" Paladin at level 1. It is not possible the way the game is setup.EQ2 is built on a mechanic that allows us to gain new arts/spells at a rate about 1.5 per level. How many levels are even necessary, at a minimum, before we're Fully Functional? It sure isn't <b>one level.</b>A Guardian is a much simpler class to play, so it makes sense that they are more fully functional at level 1. They <b>rely on fewer tools than we do</b> to get the job done.But that is precisely why many of us are Paladins - we do not want the <b>Simple Life</b>! We enjoy the complexity of our class. We enjoy that our class requires a larger toolset, and we're perfectly happy if it takes us longer to become Fully Functional.Really... If you dislike the class so much you should quit acting like the spokesperson for it.</span></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<div></div><div></div><p>Hmn....I will wait and see what exactly happens to Palys  pre-44.  I am fortunate enough to be lvl 60 and well-geared, but trust me, and you guys know this about me by now, I will not just sit there and let the Paladin become worthless again.</p><p><em>The Paladin must be as viable as any other tank at lvl 1.</em></p><p> If our DPS sucks then fix it, if our mitigation isnt the same as warriors then we are broken. Anything less is unnaceptable. If that trend continues, then VERY few Paladins will make it to 70. I am actually kinda worried for 60 to 70 Palies, as I have a feeling our warrior classes are about to get boosted beyond us once more, while we become utility tanks.</p><p>We will see guys. I prefer not to start posting non-stop about Palys again, because im actually satisfied with our current shape. Any nerfs to our class are unwanted and unneeded.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:13 PM</span></p>

[Rochir]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>Hmn....I will wait and see what exactly happens to Palys  pre-44.  I am fortunate enough to be lvl 60 and well-geared, but trust me, and you guys know this about me by now, I will not just sit there and let the Paladin become worthless again.</p><p><em>The Paladin must be as viable as any other tank at lvl 1.</em></p><p> If our DPS sucks then fix it, if our mitigation isnt the same as warriors then we are broken. Anything less is unnaceptable. If that trend continues, then VERY few Paladins will make it to 70. I am actually kinda worried for 60 to 70 Palies, as I have a feeling our warrior classes are about to get boosted beyond us once more, while we become utility tanks.</p><p>We will see guys. I prefer not to start posting non-stop about Palys again, because im actually satisfied with our current shape. Any nerfs to our class are unwanted and unneeded.</p><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:13 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Well said uhz.   I could not have said it any better.   The new paladin progression for 1-19 needs a major overhaul or there will be very few new Paladins making it to 10 or 20 much less 70 <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rochir]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Kalera wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:most of you miss the point of these changes.  Your not supposed to be a fully functioning Pally at lvl 1.  Your supposed to have aplly ike abilities, not all of them and develop as you go along rather than being a generic fighter for 10 levels and a crusader for another 10.  Now you have 20 levels to slowly become more Pally like until lvl 20 where you will be the same as a lvl 20 pally ever was.  The idea isnt to make you a full pally at lvl 5 with just scaled down versions of a lvl 25 pallies spells.  Its certainly not about getting class defining abilities at lvl 1.  The other classes are in the same boat as you guys.<div></div><hr></blockquote>This statement is not correct.   Gaurdians are fully functioning gaurdians at level 1.   To be a fully functioning gaurdian, gaurdians must be strong tanks.   Gaurdians appear to be very strong tanks at level 1 and they have sufficient dps to start soloing immediately.    Paladins are not fully functioning Paladins at level 1.   Gaurdians will not be an endangered speicies after KoS goes live <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:30 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Actually that statement is correct. You don't seem to understand how this game's mechanics work...<font color="#ccffff"><b>Paladins </b></font>have several abilities that when combined make us whole. Plate wearing + hit points (our ability to "tank&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, taunts, stuns, knockdowns, wards, heals, group heal, AE, stat buffs, procs, Lay on Hands, combat arts, DD spells and rez... The list is long.<b>You cannot give us all of those things at level 1</b>. Thus, you cannot call us a "Fully Functional" Paladin at level 1. It is not possible the way the game is setup.EQ2 is built on a mechanic that allows us to gain new arts/spells at a rate about 1.5 per level. How many levels are even necessary, at a minimum, before we're Fully Functional? It sure isn't <b>one level.</b>A Guardian is a much simpler class to play, so it makes sense that they are more fully functional at level 1. They <b>rely on fewer tools than we do</b> to get the job done.But that is precisely why many of us are Paladins - we do not want the <b>Simple Life</b>! We enjoy the complexity of our class. We enjoy that our class requires a larger toolset, and we're perfectly happy if it takes us longer to become Fully Functional.Really... If you dislike the class so much you should quit acting like the spokesperson for it.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Enough with the personal attacks.   You are only hurting your own cause with them.   The issue is giving us the same progression we have now but at a lower level.   Currently we get a slow heal at 20 and a primary heal at 22 we should get weaker versions of the same spells at levels 1 and 3 respectively.   +2 to health from the level 1 faithful swing is wholly inadequate.   The recast time on faithful swing is painfully long.    What SOE has done is make our healing ability depend on our dps which has taken a massive nerf for levels 1-9.   A level 1-9 fighter wearing rawhide and a buckler can easily out-dps and out-tank a level 1-9 Paladin carrying a long sword and a kite shield. 

[Rochir]

<div></div>I left out something, our newbie kick does not have any knockdown.   It is close to useless <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Eriol]

<blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:I left out something, our newbie kick does not have any knockdown. It is close to useless <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>IIRC, "fighter" kick that we had in original progression didn't have a knockdown either. Not 100% sure on that though.Of course that doesn't mean we don't need it now, just that we didn't have it at those levels before. The situation is different now, so maybe it IS needed earlier.

[Rochir]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eriol wrote:<blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:I left out something, our newbie kick does not have any knockdown. It is close to useless <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>IIRC, "fighter" kick that we had in original progression didn't have a knockdown either. Not 100% sure on that though.Of course that doesn't mean we don't need it now, just that we didn't have it at those levels before. The situation is different now, so maybe it IS needed earlier.<hr></blockquote>The kick/charge line of CAs are an important line of CAs for us for PvE and PvP.   They should all have knockdown, espeically since we are now Paladins at level 1.   I dont think SOE put a lot of thought into this new Paladin progression.    It is not a fighter progression, it is a weak crusader progression at best but it is definitely not a Paladin progression.   I found myself not even paying attention to what my new spells and CAs were each time I leveled.    Each new one seemed more useless than the last <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Eriol wrote:<blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:I left out something, our newbie kick does not have any knockdown. It is close to useless <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>IIRC, "fighter" kick that we had in original progression didn't have a knockdown either. Not 100% sure on that though.Of course that doesn't mean we don't need it now, just that we didn't have it at those levels before. The situation is different now, so maybe it IS needed earlier.<hr></blockquote>The kick/charge line of CAs are an important line of CAs for us for PvE and PvP.   They should all have knockdown, espeically since we are now Paladins at level 1.   I dont think SOE put a lot of thought into this new Paladin progression.    It is not a fighter progression, it is a weak crusader progression at best but it is definitely not a Paladin progression.   I found myself not even paying attention to what my new spells and CAs were each time I leveled.    Each new one seemed more useless than the last <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>I think they put alot more thought into it than you are. let me make it simple.  Pre this update you were not a full paladin till lvl 20.  After this update you will not be a full paladin till lvl 20.  all they did was take away the fighter --> Crusader --> pally tree, and put in a FEW (read that word again) pally like abilities.  You still build up to being your full class.Get over it.</span></div>

[Rochir]

<div></div>I just looked at the level 40 version of my main on test.    No changes, just a smattering of crusader spells and CAs along with a few fighter CAs.    This is no Paladin, just a very weak crusader with crap for dps who cant heal.   There is a new line on the descriptions called "resistability".    I dont know anything about that.   I assume that has something to do with mobs or other players? resisting our spells and CAs.    Our damage on these new spells and CAs is so low that I dont think it matters :smileyvery-happy:

[WAPCE]

Resistability has been listed on spells on live since the last LU, actually. It only tells you the percentage improvement over an App III, not any sort of absolute value, so it's of limited use unless you want to compare one spell to another at the same quality.

[Eriol]

<blockquote><hr>WAPCE wrote:Resistability has been listed on spells on live since the last LU, actually. It only tells you the percentage improvement over an App III, not any sort of absolute value, so it's of limited use unless you want to compare one spell to another at the same quality.<hr></blockquote>Actually IIRC this is spell-dependant, and NOT off of a "baseline appIII". Kind of like how some spells are by their nature resisted more often, whereas some are DESIGNED to be low-resist. So I think it applies to the idea of a "baseline" resist check.And btw, "easier" means easier for your target to resist, and "harder" means harder for the target to resist. Hence why things get harder to resist the better the spell quality. Hence why my coercer's mezzes try and stay master-quality, and I try and do the same with my Paladin's taunts. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rochir]

<blockquote><hr>WAPCE wrote:Resistability has been listed on spells on live since the last LU, actually. It only tells you the percentage improvement over an App III, not any sort of absolute value, so it's of limited use unless you want to compare one spell to another at the same quality.<hr></blockquote>I posted a screenie of a typical level 7 Paladin, fresh off the island. As you can see, the damage on our primary attacks is very low. The first thing you will want to do is start spamming HOs to boost your dps. You will spend a lot of time waiting for 10 second timers on spells and CAs. The recast time for HOs is about 15-25 seconds depending on how you time your spells and CAs.I checked the 0-19 spells and CAs for levels 1-19 on my level 40 Paladin on Test. Everything is pretty much the same from 10-19. We get a ward and some slightly stronger versions of our starter spells and CAs. SOE may be calling us Paladins but we are still Crusaders and imho, weaker crusaders than before. The basic fighter spells, Wild Swing in particular give much higher dps than our starter Paladin spells and CAs. If you start a new Paladin, you are really going to miss the speed, efficiency and damage of Wild Swing. We do not get a heal from 1-19.In summary, we are very weak crusaders from 1-9 then the same crusaders as before from 10-19. Twinking will be very difficult for PvP because of a lack of good Paladin items to be found on the island. All of the quested items found around qeynos will be cloth, leather or chain. There may be some new tradeskill recipies for low level plate - one can only hope. If you want to PvP before 22 with a Paladin, try to stack your stats with whatever items you can find.The new progression Paladin is not ready for PvP before level 22. The first 19 levels are throwaway levels for Paladins in the new progression. Low dps, low avoidance and no primary heal will make us easy targets in PvP and weak in PvE before level 22. If you want to play a Paladin and you want to PvP before level 22, start harvesting and crafting like mad on the island, choose outfitter (or scholar) for your tradeskill class. Stop adventuring at level 10 harvest and craft your way to 19 outfitter (weapons and armor) or scholar (spells and CAs). Then make yourself some good chain armor and weapons and buy or quest yourself a good kite shield. The problem with this plan is you will probably be repeateadly ganked while harvesting in Antonica by stronger PvP classes and killed by mobs. Around level 20, start harvesting in the TS then make yourself some good plate armor (if you choose armorer) or good weapons (if you choose weaponsmith). You will need to keep your tradeskilling ahead of your adventuring. If you can make yourself some good items by 22 and make some coin selling those items, you should be able to get enough decent gear to be able to PvP at level 22. After level 22, things should change significantly in PvE and PvP. Then grind your way to level 50 where you will come into your own as dominant in PvP and PvE <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Along the way, upgrade your heals and ward as much as possible. They will save you and your group in PvP and PvE.The only possible consolation I can think of in all of this is that shadowknights will probably be in the same weak crusader boat for 1-19. So if you are looking for enemies to fight 1-19, look for shadowknights. Avoid all scouts, mages, priests and especially other fighters!<p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:27 AM</span></p>

[Kale]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><blockquote><b>The issue is giving us the same progression we have now but at a lower level.... </b>A level 1-9 fighter wearing rawhide and a buckler can easily out-dps and out-tank a level 1-9 Paladin carrying a long sword and a kite shield. </blockquote><hr></blockquote>That isn't how you formulated the argument to begin with. You were complaining that we weren't Fully Functional Paladins at <b>Level 1.</b>If the <i>progression </i>sucks then hey, I'll agree with you and yes it needs to be changed. But that wasn't your original complaint.Paladin spells recycle approximately every 14 levels. What needs to happen is: From level 1-6 we get minor versions of the main Paladin abilities (we could argue about what those should be but it's really SOE's call). Level 7-19 is when the <i>Cycle </i>of spells should really start. For instance, at level 20 you (currently) get your first Lay on Hands spell, a taunt, and a protection spell. So level 7 is when they should get a Minor Lay on Hands and Taunt. Level 22 is when we get our first heal. Ok then, level 9 should be the first heal.If they did it that way it would make the progression and upgrades match the current system.</span></div>

[Eriol]

Just out of curiosity, why are you so concerned with pvp pre-20? You're not even going to MEET opposing faction people before level 20 (or even later) due to the barriers between the cities (nektulos specifically). Sure it's possible to make low-level runs, but somehow I think that's going to be the minority.And speaking from my experiences in WoW on a pvp server (had two post-MC level 60s, so I KNOW that game), NOBODY PvP'd in any serious capacity (little more than skirmishes) before level 50, and MOST didn't before level 60. About all it was is defending themselves occasionally, and that only really happened starting 20+ (ashenvale, etc).So I would estimate by the time paladins become "un-gimped" in abilities for pvp, that's when pvp would actually start.

[Rochir]

<blockquote><hr>Kalera wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><blockquote><b>The issue is giving us the same progression we have now but at a lower level.... </b>A level 1-9 fighter wearing rawhide and a buckler can easily out-dps and out-tank a level 1-9 Paladin carrying a long sword and a kite shield. </blockquote><hr></blockquote>That isn't how you formulated the argument to begin with. You were complaining that we weren't Fully Functional Paladins at <b>Level 1.</b>If the <i>progression </i>sucks then hey, I'll agree with you and yes it needs to be changed. But that wasn't your original complaint.Paladin spells recycle approximately every 14 levels. What needs to happen is: From level 1-6 we get minor versions of the main Paladin abilities (we could argue about what those should be but it's really SOE's call). Level 7-19 is when the <i>Cycle </i>of spells should really start. For instance, at level 20 you (currently) get your first Lay on Hands spell, a taunt, and a protection spell. So level 7 is when they should get a Minor Lay on Hands and Taunt. Level 22 is when we get our first heal. Ok then, level 9 should be the first heal.If they did it that way it would make the progression and upgrades match the current system.</span></div><hr></blockquote>There is no cycle that starts at level 7-19. I looked at all our 1-19 spells and CAs on my level 40 Paladin on Test. The screenie I posted is bad enough. If I posted the 10-19 spells and CAs, it would be worse. All we get are the same or weaker crusader spells and CAs as before. We get no primary heal until 22. Experienced Paladins will probably grin and bear the first 19 levels. Newbie Paladins will probably give up before 19 and reroll.

[Rochir]

<blockquote><hr>Eriol wrote:Just out of curiosity, why are you so concerned with pvp pre-20? You're not even going to MEET opposing faction people before level 20 (or even later) due to the barriers between the cities (nektulos specifically). Sure it's possible to make low-level runs, but somehow I think that's going to be the minority.And speaking from my experiences in WoW on a pvp server (had two post-MC level 60s, so I KNOW that game), NOBODY PvP'd in any serious capacity (little more than skirmishes) before level 50, and MOST didn't before level 60. About all it was is defending themselves occasionally, and that only really happened starting 20+ (ashenvale, etc).So I would estimate by the time paladins become "un-gimped" in abilities for pvp, that's when pvp would actually start.<hr></blockquote>If you decide to PvP you will have to make a new character. As an experienced Paladin you will probably grin and bear it until level 22. Newbie Paladins will probably quit and reroll before then. If I were a new Paladin coming from WoW, I would probably just quit and go back to my WoW Paladin when I saw how low my dps was and that I got no primary heal until 22. What it comes down to is do you care about new Paladins? If you dont, then ignore this entire thread and move on to the next one.Within hours after the PvP servers go live, you can expect to see Qeynos characters in the Commonlands and Freeporters in Antonica. Scouts in particular will be quite deadly and dangerous. With our low dps and no ward or heal before level 10, Paladins will be easy prey for any scout, even one level 5-10.<p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:38 AM</span></p>

[KBern]

<div></div><div>My one piece of advice for you Rochir, is get off the PVP thing.</div><div> </div><div>This game is not going to be balanced around PvP.  That has already been made pretty clear so unless you have some information others of us do not....you are looking at things from a skewed perspective.</div><div> </div><div>PvE not PvP is what they are balancing.</div><div> </div><div>Hopefully PvP will be exactly as they said and how they treated it in EQ1, either seperate servers...or powers are adjusted only once a duel is started.  PVP can be balanced in games like CS or BF2, but not in a MMORPG.</div><div> </div><div>Changing games, and balancing gameplay in a PvE for PvP play will ruin it and the devs have already stated they will not be doing this to the total delight of many of us.</div>

[Rochir]

<blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div></div><div>My one piece of advice for you Rochir, is get off the PVP thing.</div><div> </div><div>This game is not going to be balanced around PvP.  That has already been made pretty clear so unless you have some information others of us do not....you are looking at things from a skewed perspective.</div><div> </div><div>PvE not PvP is what they are balancing.</div><div> </div><div>Hopefully PvP will be exactly as they said and how they treated it in EQ1, either seperate servers...or powers are adjusted only once a duel is started.  PVP can be balanced in games like CS or BF2, but not in a MMORPG.</div><div> </div><div>Changing games, and balancing gameplay in a PvE for PvP play will ruin it and the devs have already stated they will not be doing this to the total delight of many of us.</div><hr></blockquote>LOL! Get off the PvP thing? Tell that to SOE, they are the ones who have put so much work into incorporating PvP in the next major release/expansion. There are already PvP guilds forming or reforming. PvP is not the only issue, if you look at the screenie and my previous posts, you will note that the new progression Paladin is just as weak in PvE as we will be in PvP 1-19.As I said before, if you are happy with your current Paladin, have no plans to make a new one or go to a PvP server and you dont care about new Paladins, then ignore this thread and go on to the next one.<p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:43 AM</span></p>

[Rhianni]

<div></div><div>If people are going to quit and stop playing because they get killed at lvl 10 (out of a max of 70!) with no heal then they would have quit for any old reason.  I think you are not giving people enough credit for what they will stick through. </div><p>Message Edited by Rhianni on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:47 AM</span></p>

[Rochir]

<blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<div></div><div>If people are going to quit and stop playing because they get killed at lvl 10 (out of a max of 70!) with no heal then they would have quit for any old reason.  I think you are not giving people enough credit for what they will stick through. </div><p>Message Edited by Rhianni on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:47 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I have a level 49 Paladin in WoW. I am the top ranked Paladin at my level in PvP on my RP-PvP server. Players frequently reroll in EQ2, they reroll even more frequently in WoW. WoW players tend to have a shorter attention span than EQ2 players. If they dont like their characters from level 1, they will either quit the game or reroll. In WoW, PvP has been an integral part of the game from day 1. WoW players will not stick with a character that cannot PvP effectively.I think the reaction of WoW players who come to eq2 and choose Paladin, then find out they get no primary heal before level 22 will be shocked disbelief followed by disgust. You may not care about Wow players who come to EQ2 but it is apparent that SOE does.<p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:02 PM</span></p>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<div></div><div>If people are going to quit and stop playing because they get killed at lvl 10 (out of a max of 70!) with no heal then they would have quit for any old reason.  I think you are not giving people enough credit for what they will stick through. </div><p>Message Edited by Rhianni on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:47 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I have a level 49 Paladin in WoW. I am the top ranked Paladin at my level in PvP on my RP-PvP server. Players frequently reroll in EQ2, they reroll even more frequently in WoW. WoW players tend to have a shorter attention span than EQ2 players. If they dont like their characters from level 1, they will either quit the game or reroll. In WoW, PvP has been an integral part of the game from day 1. WoW players will not stick with a character that cannot PvP effectively.I think the reaction of WoW players who come to eq2 and choose Paladin, then find out they get no primary heal before level 22 will be shocked disbelief followed by disgust. You may not care about Wow players who come to EQ2 but it is apparent that SOE does.<p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:02 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Go roll a Templar and get over the no heals will you.</span></div>

[Rochir]

<blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<div></div><div>If people are going to quit and stop playing because they get killed at lvl 10 (out of a max of 70!) with no heal then they would have quit for any old reason.  I think you are not giving people enough credit for what they will stick through. </div><p>Message Edited by Rhianni on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:47 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I have a level 49 Paladin in WoW. I am the top ranked Paladin at my level in PvP on my RP-PvP server. Players frequently reroll in EQ2, they reroll even more frequently in WoW. WoW players tend to have a shorter attention span than EQ2 players. If they dont like their characters from level 1, they will either quit the game or reroll. In WoW, PvP has been an integral part of the game from day 1. WoW players will not stick with a character that cannot PvP effectively.I think the reaction of WoW players who come to eq2 and choose Paladin, then find out they get no primary heal before level 22 will be shocked disbelief followed by disgust. You may not care about Wow players who come to EQ2 but it is apparent that SOE does.<p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:02 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Go roll a Templar and get over the no heals will you.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Good point. I am glad we agree. That is exactly what WoW Paladins will do when they find out they cant heal themselves until 22. Get over their interest in EQ2 or reroll <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rhianni]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<div></div><div>If people are going to quit and stop playing because they get killed at lvl 10 (out of a max of 70!) with no heal then they would have quit for any old reason.  I think you are not giving people enough credit for what they will stick through. </div><p>Message Edited by Rhianni on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:47 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I have a level 49 Paladin in WoW. I am the top ranked Paladin at my level in PvP on my RP-PvP server. Players frequently reroll in EQ2, they reroll even more frequently in WoW. WoW players tend to have a shorter attention span than EQ2 players. If they dont like their characters from level 1, they will either quit the game or reroll. In WoW, PvP has been an integral part of the game from day 1. WoW players will not stick with a character that cannot PvP effectively.I think the reaction of WoW players who come to eq2 and choose Paladin, then find out they get no primary heal before level 22 will be shocked disbelief followed by disgust. You may not care about Wow players who come to EQ2 but it is apparent that SOE does.<p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:02 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>Rochir the nonsense you keep spewing is hilarious.  People quit a game if they dont like their lvl 1 character?!? Apparently 5 million WoW players disagree with your opinion that they quit after lvl 1 if they dont like their character. I played lvl 56 tauren druid.  We didnt get our animal forms until later.  No way for a player to know the dps issues of cat form until they get the cat form.  Blizzard gives paladin rez at 12th level so they dont seem to agree with your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ideas either.</p>

[Rochir]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<p>Rochir the nonsense you keep spewing is hilarious.  People quit a game if they dont like their lvl 1 character?!? Apparently 5 million WoW players disagree with your opinion that they quit after lvl 1 if they dont like their character. I played lvl 56 tauren druid.  We didnt get our animal forms until later.  No way for a player to know the dps issues of cat form until they get the cat form.  Blizzard gives paladin rez at 12th level so they dont seem to agree with your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ideas either.</p><hr></blockquote><p>You obviously dont get it.  I have tried to help you get it but still you do not.   I am on Ventrilo right now talking to members of my WoW guild and I asked them the following question:</p><p>If you created a new Paladin and found out that you would not get any healing spell until level 22, would you want to play that Paladin?</p><p>Are you insane?</p><p>What are you talking about?</p><p>Probably not.</p><p>No!</p><p>and a few other things I cannot repeat here...</p><p>That about sums it up :smileyvery-happy:</p>

[KBern]

<div>Maybe you do not get it.</div><div> </div><div>WoW is a different game.</div>

[Rochir]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>KBern wrote:<div>Maybe you do not get it.</div><div> </div><div>WoW is a different game.</div><hr></blockquote>Ah where do you think the new progression came from?

[Eriol]

<blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:Ah where do you think the new progression came from?<hr></blockquote>EQ1, D&D, or virtually any other game except eq2? Doesn't HAVE to be WoW.

[Rhianni]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<p>Rochir the nonsense you keep spewing is hilarious.  People quit a game if they dont like their lvl 1 character?!? Apparently 5 million WoW players disagree with your opinion that they quit after lvl 1 if they dont like their character. I played lvl 56 tauren druid.  We didnt get our animal forms until later.  No way for a player to know the dps issues of cat form until they get the cat form.  Blizzard gives paladin rez at 12th level so they dont seem to agree with your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ideas either.</p><hr></blockquote><p>You obviously dont get it.  I have tried to help you get it but still you do not.   I am on Ventrilo right now talking to members of my WoW guild and I asked them the following question:</p><p>If you created a new Paladin and found out that you would not get any healing spell until level 22, would you want to play that Paladin?</p><p>Are you insane?</p><p>What are you talking about?</p><p>Probably not.</p><p>No!</p><p>and a few other things I cannot repeat here...</p><p>That about sums it up :smileyvery-happy:</p><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry but I am not going to drop the point that you tried to forget  you made and go back to the healing at lvl 22 thing.  Druids in WoW didnt get stealth until lvl 30 (or 20 can remember which to be honest).  But the point is that it wasnt at level 1 and it wasnt for many levels.  Did people who wanted to play a healing stealther quit at level 1?  No they kept playing. </p><p>Paladins dont get ANY healing until level 22?  Thats what you asked your friends on vent.  I admit that I havent played on test so this is a serious question.  Just so we are clear you are saying paladins get no healing whatsoever zilch nada nothing until lvl 22?</p><p>EDIT: After going through and rereading your posts thats what you are saying.  That sucks but is not all the points I was disagreeing with you on.  I still stand by my statement that people dont give up and quit because they dont get all powers at a low level.  Specifically from the game you are quoting and that EQ2 is trying to attract from.  Blizzard staggers powers too. Specifically druids and their forms, paladins in their rez and divine touch and especially in talents.  People in a PvP game dont look at the first 1/3rd of the games levels and say [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] i cant do that I quit.  Its about the end content.</p><p>Message Edited by Rhianni on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:31 PM</span></p>

[EvilIguana9]

There are two factors to consider when balancing abilities, and they can seem to be at odds with each other.  Factor one is immediate fun, factor two is progression.  If the class isn't fun to play from the start then few people will be willing to grind through on the assumption that things will magically get better.  At the same time, you can't give the player everything from the start or the level up process will be a simple grind with no milestones to look forward to. <div></div>

[Eriol]

<blockquote><hr>EvilIguana966 wrote:There are two factors to consider when balancing abilities, and they can seem to be at odds with each other. Factor one is immediate fun, factor two is progression. If the class isn't fun to play from the start then few people will be willing to grind through on the assumption that things will magically get better. At the same time, you can't give the player everything from the start or the level up process will be a simple grind with no milestones to look forward to.<hr></blockquote>Well said.

[Rhianni]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>EvilIguana966 wrote:There are two factors to consider when balancing abilities, and they can seem to be at odds with each other.  Factor one is immediate fun, factor two is progression.  If the class isn't fun to play from the start then few people will be willing to grind through on the assumption that things will magically get better.  At the same time, you can't give the player everything from the start or the level up process will be a simple grind with no milestones to look forward to. <div></div><hr></blockquote>This is very true.  I would want a heal before 22. But looking at the screenshots on page one of this thread there are enough paladin powers at lvl 7 to tide me over. I wonder what the wow paladins would have answered if they were asked if they wanted to play a paladin that didnt get a heal until lvl 22 but had a ranged nuke that interrupts (huge for lvl 7 pvp) and a melee attack that heals them.<p>Message Edited by Rhianni on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:11 PM</span></p>

[Rochir]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Rhianni wrote:</p><p>This is very true.  I would want a heal before 22. But looking at the screenshots on page one of this thread there are enough paladin powers at lvl 7 to tide me over. I wonder what the wow paladins would have answered if they were asked if they wanted to play a paladin that didnt get a heal until lvl 22 but had a ranged nuke that interrupts (huge for lvl 7 pvp) and a melee attack that heals them.</p><hr></blockquote>None of this was my idea, I was happy with the fighter and crusader.   What SOE has done is take a weak crusader and slap a Paladin label on him at level 1.    We need a primary heal before level 10 and a weak out-of combat resurrection before level 20.   That healing hit is ineffective at best and our dps is too low.

[oneeyedlotus]

OK ive had enough of this whining rochir seriously you need to just deal with it, your giving all of us pallys a bad name because of your constant whining, 90% of the paladins in this post disagree with you and it seems to me you dont know what your talking about. SOE has alot more experiance in class balancing that you and i know from experience on the test server that paladins 1-20 progression is fine, PvP isnt even an issue pre 20 and the Devs have stated countless times that class balance is based on PvE not PvP. i think SOE is 100% right in not giving paladins a heal or rez pre 20 and having played a few other fighter classes recently on test paladins DPS is up to par with the other fighters, and we have the advantage of the mini amend spell we get at 6 or 7 ( forget which) i honestly think that my paladin is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near equal dps wise with a bruiser i made and lvled on the same day. mit and avoid is decent in comparison lvl wise with the other fighters it is rightwhere a lvl 6 paladin should be. Besides th all know ego boost that you think you get yourself do you have a point to all this? seriously just relax and play and keep your unvalidated opinions to yourself. If you happen to have a valid complaint i would back you up, but you dont./rant off<img src="http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/stoneyeq/newstoney60sig.jpg"><div></div>

[Rhianni]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Rhianni wrote:</p><p>This is very true.  I would want a heal before 22. But looking at the screenshots on page one of this thread there are enough paladin powers at lvl 7 to tide me over. I wonder what the wow paladins would have answered if they were asked if they wanted to play a paladin that didnt get a heal until lvl 22 but had a ranged nuke that interrupts (huge for lvl 7 pvp) and a melee attack that heals them.</p><hr></blockquote>None of this was my idea, I was happy with the fighter and crusader.   What SOE has done is take a weak crusader and slap a Paladin label on him at level 1.    We need a primary heal before level 10 and a weak out-of combat resurrection before level 20.   That healing hit is ineffective at best and our dps is too low.<hr></blockquote>and so we come full circle back to the label paladin.  A class isnt defined by its name but its abilities.  Blizzard calls a class that has rez at 12 and a heal at (6?) a paladin.  SOE calls a class with a heal at 22 and a rez past 40 a paladin.  Somehow players in both games manage to level beyond lvl 1.

[Rochir]

<blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:and so we come full circle back to the label paladin.  A class isnt defined by its name but its abilities.  Blizzard calls a class that has rez at 12 and a heal at (6?) a paladin.  SOE calls a class with a heal at 22 and a rez past 40 a paladin.  Somehow players in both games manage to level beyond lvl 1.<hr></blockquote>The new progression was not my idea.   Making EQ2 more like WoW was not my idea, it was the EQ2 Teams idea.   I am stating the fact that the EQ2 Team is making the EQ2 character progression like WoW's.   My point is this, if they are going to do it, they should do it right.   They are not doing it right.   If what they are doing is trying to attract disgruntled WoW players, giving them weak classes starting from levels 1-19 is not the way to do it.   I personally prefer the old progression, it is a lot better than the new one.

[Rochir]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>oneeyedlotus wrote:OK ive had enough of this whining rochir seriously you need to just deal with it, your giving all of us pallys a bad name because of your constant whining, 90% of the paladins in this post disagree with you and it seems to me you dont know what your talking about. SOE has alot more experiance in class balancing that you and i know from experience on the test server that paladins 1-20 progression is fine, PvP isnt even an issue pre 20 and the Devs have stated countless times that class balance is based on PvE not PvP. i think SOE is 100% right in not giving paladins a heal or rez pre 20 and having played a few other fighter classes recently on test paladins DPS is up to par with the other fighters, and we have the advantage of the mini amend spell we get at 6 or 7 ( forget which) i honestly think that my paladin is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near equal dps wise with a bruiser i made and lvled on the same day. mit and avoid is decent in comparison lvl wise with the other fighters it is rightwhere a lvl 6 paladin should be. Besides th all know ego boost that you think you get yourself do you have a point to all this? seriously just relax and play and keep your unvalidated opinions to yourself. If you happen to have a valid complaint i would back you up, but you dont./rant off<img src="http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/stoneyeq/newstoney60sig.jpg"><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>I play WoW AND EQ2.    I understand both sides of the argument.   You say we dont need a heal before level 22, and that 90% of the posters here disagree with me and agree with you.  There are 4 million WoW subscribers who would disagree with you and 90% fo the posters here.   It is obvious who SOE is listening to.   Your argument is with SOE and all of those WoW subscribers, not me. </p><p>The Paladin is a VERY popular class in WoW, maybe the most popular.    A Paladin with no heal or rez before level 22 and 44 wil not be considered a Paladin by any of those WoW Paladins.  If what SOE is trying to attract some of those WoW Paladins to EQ2, the new progression Paladin on test is not the way to do it.  That may change in the next patch on test.  Personally, I prefer the old progression.   I would much rather play a fighter or crusader with no heals at all but decent dps and defense than the new progression Paladin.</p>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><p>I play WoW AND EQ2.    I understand both sides of the argument.   You say we dont need a heal before level 22, and that 90% of the posters here disagree with me and agree with you.  There are 4 million WoW subscribers who would disagree with you and 90% fo the posters here.   It is obvious who SOE is listening to.   Your argument is with SOE and all of those WoW subscribers, not me.</p><hr></blockquote>Apart from being the most negative poster I know on this board, which is pretty clearly annoying many people... myself included.You are under the impression that SOE are making these changes to make their game more like WOW, with no solid evidence, what they are doing is changing from the archetype system (which while a good idea had flaws, including not allowing people to play their chosen class from level 1) to a class system from level 1. This does not mean they are changing it to be like WOW, nor that they want all those WOW paladins to come and play EQ2.EQ2 is a more complex and involved game than WOW and many of those who love WOW will never like EQ2, SOE are tring to make EQ2 more accessible, yes, but as much to the existing EQ2 players who want to re-roll alts without repeating teh same ground as any new players.This is not about WOW, nor about what WOW Paladins think, it is about EQ2 and clearly those who play EQ2, with the exception of you and a few others (known panic merchants and drama queens mostly) are happy with the way it is working out.</span><div></div>

[Rochir]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>lisasdarren wrote:<span>Apart from being the most negative poster I know on this board, which is pretty clearly annoying many people... myself included.You are under the impression that SOE are making these changes to make their game more like WOW, with no solid evidence, what they are doing is changing from the archetype system (which while a good idea had flaws, including not allowing people to play their chosen class from level 1) to a class system from level 1. This does not mean they are changing it to be like WOW, nor that they want all those WOW paladins to come and play EQ2.EQ2 is a more complex and involved game than WOW and many of those who love WOW will never like EQ2, SOE are tring to make EQ2 more accessible, yes, but as much to the existing EQ2 players who want to re-roll alts without repeating teh same ground as any new players.This is not about WOW, nor about what WOW Paladins think, it is about EQ2 and clearly those who play EQ2, with the exception of you and a few others (known panic merchants and drama queens mostly) are happy with the way it is working out.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>More personal attacks.  LOL! No solid evidence that SOE is making these changesto make EQ2 more like WoW?   Here is your evidence:</p><p>400,000 subscribers * $13.00/month = $5,200,000/month for EQ2 subscriptions</p><p>4,000,000 subscribers * $13,00/month = $52,000,000/month for WoW subscriptions</p><p>No, WoW has nothing to do with the new character progression in EQ2.   Oh, and I have some mountains in Florida I can sell you real cheap...</p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:32 PM</span></p>

[Rhianni]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><p>I play WoW AND EQ2.    I understand both sides of the argument.   You say we dont need a heal before level 22, and that 90% of the posters here disagree with me and agree with you.  There are 4 million WoW subscribers who would disagree with you and 90% fo the posters here.   It is obvious who SOE is listening to.   Your argument is with SOE and all of those WoW subscribers, not me. </p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p> Seeing as how paladins dont get a heal till 22 guess who SOE is listening to <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Rochir]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><p>I play WoW AND EQ2.    I understand both sides of the argument.   You say we dont need a heal before level 22, and that 90% of the posters here disagree with me and agree with you.  There are 4 million WoW subscribers who would disagree with you and 90% fo the posters here.   It is obvious who SOE is listening to.   Your argument is with SOE and all of those WoW subscribers, not me. </p><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p> Seeing as how paladins dont get a heal till 22 guess who SOE is listening to <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>I like the current progression.   I wish they would leave it the way it is.   I do not like the new progression.   The old leather wearing fighter was much better than the new "plate" wearing "Paladin".

[oneeyedlotus]

<font size="6" color="#cc0033">THIS IS EVERQUEST 2 <font size="7" color="#ff0000">NOT</font> WORLD OF WARCRAFT, <font size="7" color="#ff0000">DO NOT</font> COMPARE THIS GAME TO THAT ONE </font>there is no comparing the 2 games at all Rochir I ask that you please stop posting it is quite annoying and i think many fellow paladins would agree with me, you obviously have no idea what your talking about.Did i type it big enough for you to understand?<img src="http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/stoneyeq/newstoney60sig.jpg"><div></div>

[Rochir]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>oneeyedlotus wrote:<font size="6" color="#cc0033">THIS IS EVERQUEST 2 <font size="7" color="#ff0000">NOT</font> WORLD OF WARCRAFT, <font size="7" color="#ff0000">DO NOT</font> COMPARE THIS GAME TO THAT ONE </font>there is no comparing the 2 games at all Rochir I ask that you please stop posting it is quite annoying and i think many fellow paladins would agree with me, you obviously have no idea what your talking about.Did i type it big enough for you to understand?<img src="http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/stoneyeq/newstoney60sig.jpg"><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>*sighs* It is you who does not understand.    I never asked SOE to make EQ2 more like WoW.   It was their idea, not mine.  No comparing the 2 games at all?   Go to the class selection screen in WoW, then go to the class selection screen in EQ2 on Test and then come back here and tell me I dont know what I am talking about.  You can find similarities in every aspect of both games.   I would post screenshots from both games but I am not certain that SOE wants WoW and EQ2 screenshots side by side in their forums.   There are many Paladin spells in both games that have almost the same names and do almost the same thing, for example Consecrated Aura and Consecration.  Both are AEs  that do damage over time.    There are many more...</p><p>If you have a problem with SOE making EQ2 more like WoW then adress your concerns to SOE, not me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   The one thing that EQ2 lacks and the reason that I play WoW is PvP.   I think making EQ2 too much like WoW would be a mistake.   For example, the WoW crafting system sucks but for some reason it seems that SOE wants to make the EQ2 crafting system more like WoW.     I think EQ2 has a better combat system than WoW.    I like playing my WoW Paladin but I dont want my EQ2 Paladin turned into a WoW Paladin.    I am happy with my current Paladin and the current character progression. </p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-25-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:57 PM</span></p>

[oneeyedlotus]

In what ways is SOE making EQ2 like WOW??? go play wow and post on there boards because there is no comparing the 2 games, none of the changes being made make this game anywhere near WOW.  I dont like WOW and tho many ppl do i dont SOE would lower itself to that lvl. Its childish at best cartoony and no where near as much depth. just because PvP is coming out and char progession is changing it does not mean that WOW is being copied. there was a little game that has been around for about 6 years called Everquest. guess what it had pvp and paladins years before WOW. How can you degrade the name of eq2 in this way, seriously if i run into qeynos and theres an orc doing the funky chicken, and gnomes with giant heads doing the robot, then i would say they were coping WOW, but sorry to burst your bubble but everquest was the inovator not WOW. PVP and Paladins were around before wow and if EQ2 is taking up some of eq1s traits thats fine but my god theres no way that this game is anywhere near WOW.Any game where a completly new player can hit the mid 30s in a weekend cant be taken seriously. Blizzard makes good games, and WOW has its audiance but i dont know any self respecting  eq2 player  could lower themselves tho play that horrid game. I make me mad beyond belief that you keep comparing the 2 games.Paladins dont need a heal pre 22 and most certinly dont need a rez pre 40s, if you want instant gratification and funky chicken dancin orcs go play wow and leave EQ2 behind. i dont think youll be missed much here on the forums.<img src="http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/stoneyeq/newstoney60sig.jpg"><div></div>

[Rochir]

<blockquote><hr>oneeyedlotus wrote:In what ways is SOE making EQ2 like WOW??? go play wow and post on there boards because there is no comparing the 2 games, none of the changes being made make this game anywhere near WOW.  I dont like WOW and tho many ppl do i dont SOE would lower itself to that lvl. Its childish at best cartoony and no where near as much depth. just because PvP is coming out and char progession is changing it does not mean that WOW is being copied. there was a little game that has been around for about 6 years called Everquest. guess what it had pvp and paladins years before WOW. How can you degrade the name of eq2 in this way, seriously if i run into qeynos and theres an orc doing the funky chicken, and gnomes with giant heads doing the robot, then i would say they were coping WOW, but sorry to burst your bubble but everquest was the inovator not WOW. PVP and Paladins were around before wow and if EQ2 is taking up some of eq1s traits thats fine but my god theres no way that this game is anywhere near WOW.Any game where a completly new player can hit the mid 30s in a weekend cant be taken seriously. Blizzard makes good games, and WOW has its audiance but i dont know any self respecting  eq2 player  could lower themselves tho play that horrid game. I make me mad beyond belief that you keep comparing the 2 games.Paladins dont need a heal pre 22 and most certinly dont need a rez pre 40s, if you want instant gratification and funky chicken dancin orcs go play wow and leave EQ2 behind. i dont think youll be missed much here on the forums.<img src="http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/stoneyeq/newstoney60sig.jpg"><div></div><hr></blockquote>Like it or not, EQ2 has fundamentally changed since release and will continue to change. What we are discussing here is the nature of that change for the Paladin. SOE does read these boards and the EQ2 Team does take our posts into consideration when making design decisions in EQ2. I know for a fact that they will ignore flames and personal attacks so you are wasting your time posting them. You are taking all of this waay to personally. These are business decisions made by SOE and the EQ2 team not me. I have met John Smedley, Scott Hartsman (Galiente) Moorgard, Blackgaurd and most of the EQ2 Team. They all care deeply about EQ2, SOE customers and listen to us.WoW is influenced by EQ2 and EQ2 is influenced by WoW. WoW recently added auction houses in every major city including neutral cities, a standard feature of EQ2. The EQ2 quest system has already been streamlined, experience increased and death penalties decreased. It is very possible to level a character to the mid 30s in EQ2 in one weekend. I think that WoW and EQ2 are both great games. I think that EQ2 is a better game than WoW in every respect but one, PvP but PvP is HUGE. There are now 4 million WoW subscribers. The EQ2 Team works for SOE and are obligated to do their best to maximize revenues and profits produced by EQ2. Without profits they have no jobs and we have no game to play. The EQ2 Team is trying to make EQ2 more accessible and easier to play. They are trying to make EQ2 more familiar to WoW players while preserving the orgionality, differences and fun of EQ2, not an easy task.It really doesnt matter who was the innovator or who was first. The issue now and the topic of this thread is what will the nature of the Paladin be in EQ2. The new Paladin character progression is obviously influenced by WoW. The issues I have raised here are:1. Should a Paladin who cant heal (or resurrect) before level 22 be called a Paladin? I think we need a healing spell before level 10 and out-of-combat rez before level 20, others may disagree.2. Imho after playing 2 Paladins in the new progression we have taken a major hit on DPS. I think that a level 7 fighter could easily out-dps and out tank a new progression Paladin. Should a leather-wearing pure melee character be able to out-dps and out-tank a Paladin of the same level? I think not, others may disagree.I think the first 10-20 levels are cruicial in how a player views the class they are playing. If they do not like playing that class, they will either choose another class or choose another game. I have played Paladins in both WoW and EQ2. For the first 19 levels I think the WoW Paladin is more fun to play than the new progressi8on. However, after level 22, I prefer the EQ2 Paladin. EQ2 Paladins can place multiple buffs on group members, WoW Paladins only one. It is very hard for tanks to manage group agro in WoW, it is much easier in EQ2. I think EQ2 has a better combat system than WoW.EQ2 is a game and it is supposed to be fun. I see no reason why the EQ2 Paladin can not be as much or more fun than the WoW Paladin is for the first 20 levels. Adding dps and a simple heal that can heal the Paladin and others will help make the new Paladin a lot more fun to play in EQ2. That is just my opinion, others may disagree. SOE reads popular threads like this one. If your posts are made in the letter and spirit of the forum rules they will read them. If they contain personal attacks and flames, they will ignore them.<p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:54 AM</span></p>

[oneeyedlotus]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<blockquote><hr><div></div><hr></blockquote>Like it or not, EQ2 has fundamentally changed since release and will continue to change. What we are discussing here is the nature of that change for the Paladin. SOE does read these boards and the EQ2 Team does take our posts into consideration when making design decisions in EQ2. I know for a fact that they will ignore flames and personal attacks so you are wasting your time posting them. You are taking all of this waay to personally. These are business decisions made by SOE and the EQ2 team not me. I have met John Smedley, Scott Hartsman (Galiente) Moorgard, Blackgaurd and most of the EQ2 Team. They all care deeply about EQ2, SOE customers and listen to us.<font color="#6633ff"></font><font color="#6633ff">It has changed as did eq1 it changes by what a majority of players seem to want, and sometimes just things SOE wants to implement but in a world where both EQ2 and WOW are loosly basing the mechanics of the game on everquest there are bound to be simaliarities. </font>WoW is influenced by EQ2 and EQ2 is influenced by WoW. WoW recently added auction houses in every major city including neutral cities, a standard feature of EQ2. The EQ2 quest system has already been streamlined, experience increased and death penalties decreased. It is very possible to level a character to the mid 30s in EQ2 in one weekend. I think that WoW and EQ2 are both great games. I think that EQ2 is a better game than WoW in every respect but one, PvP but PvP is HUGE. There are now 4 million WoW subscribers. The EQ2 Team works for SOE and are obligated to do their best to maximize revenues and profits produced by EQ2. Without profits they have no jobs and we have no game to play. The EQ2 Team is trying to make EQ2 more accessible and easier to play. They are trying to make EQ2 more familiar to WoW players while preserving the orgionality, differences and fun of EQ2, not an easy task. <font color="#6633ff">EQ2 doesnt seem to even try to be on the same scale amount of players as WOW obviously the game has its flaws but WOW does too, Adding PVP isnt huge for eq2 its going to be 1-2 servers out of what 20? they are not gonan base the game on the 5% of players that will play on PvP if even 5% there is no need to tweak the classes for PvP and SOE has a history of that, look at EQ1 i had a necro and no way anyone was close to defeating me in PvP, but My paladin was a differnt story it could go either way, it was obviously not balanced for PvP but for PvE. eq2 will be balanced for PvE as has been stated countless times. PvP is just soemthing that SOE never really care much about. games that have based on PVP are ussully not very good.</font>It really doesnt matter who was the innovator or who was first. The issue now and the topic of this thread is what will the nature of the Paladin be in EQ2. The new Paladin character progression is obviously influenced by WoW. The issues I have raised here are:<font color="#6633ff">Your not here to state anything about the affairs of paladins in eq2 you just want them to WOWize the first 20 lvls and i for one will do all i can to see that not happen. you think a lvl 5 ranger should get evac and storm of arrows because they get them later? no thats ridiculous as is giving a paladin heals and rezes from lvl one. </font>1. Should a Paladin who cant heal (or resurrect) before level 22 be called a Paladin? I think we need a healing spell before level 10 and out-of-combat rez before level 20, others may disagree.<font color="#6633ff"></font><font color="#6633ff">Again i will state it 90% of us disagree with you</font>2. Imho after playing 2 Paladins in the new progression we have taken a major hit on DPS. I think that a level 7 fighter could easily out-dps and out tank a new progression Paladin. Should a leather-wearing pure melee character be able to out-dps and out-tank a Paladin of the same level? I think not, others may disagree.<font color="#6633ff">I have no issue with DPS when you look at what utility we have, it is a bit on the low side, but its decent if you want dps dont be a pally.  No leather wearing tank will out tank me, with the exceptions of a few mobs. and  the leather wearing tank cant group heal or rez. </font>I think the first 10-20 levels are cruicial in how a player views the class they are playing. If they do not like playing that class, they will either choose another class or choose another game. I have played Paladins in both WoW and EQ2. For the first 19 levels I think the WoW Paladin is more fun to play than the new progressi8on. However, after level 22, I prefer the EQ2 Paladin. EQ2 Paladins can place multiple buffs on group members, WoW Paladins only one. It is very hard for tanks to manage group agro in WoW, it is much easier in EQ2. I think EQ2 has a better combat system than WoW.<font color="#6633ff">If anyone based there decision on a class by lvl 1-20 without doing the research on what a class becomes thats just to bad theres abundant free resources to help make that decscion. Again a say paladin and WOW and EQ2 shouldnt be compared they are 2 differnt games with two separte paladins. WOW is more instant gratification and EQ2 is more of a earning your rank type, I like the fact that i gain powers as i lvl and im not given all them at once, WOW has 4 million players or whatever but its not geared towards the same audiance as the core of EQ2 gamers.</font>EQ2 is a game and it is supposed to be fun. I see no reason why the EQ2 Paladin can not be as much or more fun than the WoW Paladin is for the first 20 levels. Adding dps and a simple heal that can heal the Paladin and others will help make the new Paladin a lot more fun to play in EQ2. That is just my opinion, others may disagree. SOE reads popular threads like this one. If your posts are made in the letter and spirit of the forum rules they will read them. If they contain personal attacks and flames, they will ignore them.<font size="4" color="#cc0000"></font><font color="#cc0000"><font size="4">GO PLAY WOW THEN!</font>Personal attacks are not what i intend but you just dont get the point. these are EQ2 forums not EQ2 vs WOW forums. Things need to be focused on the EQ2 side and issues such as this on things that havent even gone live need to be put on test server forums <u>NOT </u>paladin forums, i highly doubt it but what if they decide to just throw the new class progession out the window? then you just made a big fuss over nothing. Issues such as this donot need to be and shouldnt be posted in class forums. I for one like the paladin progression it shows that if you work and put the time in you will be rewarded, not more of the same crap for 60 (soon to be 70) lvls, giving us differnt "powers" along the way makes the game more interesting, once i hit 60 i was sad that i had nothign else skill wise to look forward to sure i can work on bettering my gear and such but lvling up the best thing for me was the fact that i had to earn the ablitly to rez i wasnt given it right away. with the new AA system things will be even better. This game is fun, but to become great on norrath it requires you earn it, it is and should not be given to you.</font><hr></blockquote><img src="http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/stoneyeq/newstoney60sig.jpg"></span><div></div>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div><div></div><p>More personal attacks.  LOL! No solid evidence that SOE is making these changesto make EQ2 more like WoW?   Here is your evidence:</p><p>400,000 subscribers * $13.00/month = $5,200,000/month for EQ2 subscriptions</p><p>4,000,000 subscribers * $13,00/month = $52,000,000/month for WoW subscriptions</p><p>No, WoW has nothing to do with the new character progression in EQ2.   Oh, and I have some mountains in Florida I can sell you real cheap...</p><hr></blockquote>That wasn't a personal attack, it was a statement of fact. Go read your own posts on these forums about any Paladin changes, they are almost always negative, oh and the trait is generally that Paladins are not powerful enough for your tastes. If you want personal attacks i can do that, but it would be meaningless to this discussion.EQ2 are making these changes in order to keep their existing customers playing (rolling alts) and attract new customers. That means making the game more appealing to people in some way, and they have chosen to make the class progression like that of EQ1 (Which is also like that of WOW, which is not suprising, since they are both fantsy MMOs). Of course it is about making money, but that doesn't mean they are making it like WOW, that is unsubstantiated conjecture.The fact that WOW has so many players is little to do with the quality of the game, or the fun, or any number of other factors. It is and always has been because it is Warcraft, which is a far bigger name to most gamers than Everquest ever was, it isn't just attracting MMO players, it is attracting nearly anyone who has played a Warcraft game. EQ2 can never hope to compete with WOW on its own terms for exactly that reason and the EQ2 team are intelligent enough to know this and as such are trying to make EQ2 as appealing as possible to MMO players, whether they are Warcraft followers or not.EQ2 players are here because they are MMO players, not because they played a RTS game called Everquest, and those players are happily saying that there is nothing wrong with the progression of Paladins under the new system, which tells me that the EQ2 team have got it pretty much right for their intended audience.Of course having said that I could be completely wrong and the EQ2 team have roadmaps in place to take 2 million of Blizzards players and turn them into EQ2 players, and that this is just a first step on that road. If it is then I would have to say that someone in SOE has really underestimated the power of the Blizzard / Warcraft name.</span><div></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div></div>The best part about this thread is the lvl 3 group heal you get..<***REMOVED FLAME BAIT***><div></div><p>Message Edited by Echgar on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:53 AM</span></p>

[KBern]

<div></div><div></div><p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=44499" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=44499</a></p><p>Paladin- I played as a dwarf, so I played on Qeynos Island. <font size="4" color="#ff0033" face="Comic Sans MS">This class caughtme off guard to be honest. I think of all the classes I have played this isthe easiest to solo. The 2 point heal really helps when you use your firstspecial attack. Sorry I cannot remember the name of that spell but it is verynice. The same mobs I had a tough time with as other classes I could easilyhandle with the pally. It didnt matter if I went offensive or defensive I wasable to kill very easily.</font> Even mobs above my level and with the occasional addI could handle.</p><p>Highlighted bolded and changed font, and made red, for emphasis.</p><p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class="date_text">01-26-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:17 PM</span></p>

[Rochir]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>There is a sizable update on test.    We now have a simple group heal that we get at level 3.   Dps seems improved.   I was able to solo a normal white con named mob and groups of normal mobs.   The heal does not make us invincible, but it does help us survive.   Prayer of healing uses a significant amount of power (21) so we can heal about 3-5 times before we run out.   Having a heal also allows us to start working on our  Focus and Ministration skills starting at level 3.</p><p> </p><p><img alt="Image hosting by Photobucket" src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a290/blackweb1/EQ2%20Screenies/EQ2_000009.jpg"></p><p>Thanks EQ2 Team! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">01-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:13 AM</span></p>

[Rochir]

<div></div>Someone asked me if the screenshots in this thread were from Test or a custom UI.   The screenshots are from test.   The only custom UI I use is EQ2 MAP.