Where should Paladin DPS be?

[Celedon Silvertree]

I am a mid range (41) paladin now and the more I group (excluding raids) the more I notice that we seem to be fairly equal to other classes in terms of tankability.. and we are in the same ballpark when it comes to holding agro. With regard to agro we may even have a slight lead. But I observe that I consistently do about half the damage (or even less) of a zerker, bruiser or monk when all other factors are equal and I am using a legendary 2 hander. (Shinny Brass Halbard through the 30s). Ok.. I know we are a tank class... DPS isn't supposed to matter so much to a tank, but to the people who keep saying this... how do you really justify to yourself that we are so far behind these other classes in this area but our advantages in terms of defense or agro management are no where near as exagurated. I am asking because I want someone to talk me out of re-rolling. I really like my paladin but more and more as I level I keep feeling my class got screwed over. Especially in small 2-3 person groups when a monk/bruiser/zerker seems to bring so much more to the table than I do. Not asking for nerfs.. not trying to start a war... I just want to know if other people feel the same way or why it is that they don't have a problem with it. <div></div>

[FlintAH]

We can heal so we can take slightly harder mobs than a group w/o a healer.  We can rez.  We have wards and good group heals.  And do you have your stances and skills upgraded to adp3 or better?

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>Monks, bruisers, and zerkers dont bring something more...they bring something <U><EM>different.</EM></U></DIV> <DIV><EM><U></U></EM> </DIV> <DIV>They might bring more DPS, but you bring more heals. In the end its just tanking by a different methods. Many casters prefer Palys over tanks for aggro purposes. In fact, I believe Palys have the best aggro management of any tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you reroll, thats your choice. But I invite you to look in the zerker, guard, and SK forums and see how they feel about their classes.</DIV>

[Celedon Silvertree]

Can't rez yet but I guess that is comming soon. Wards seem to offset our lower hit points and give us an edge but like I said, we are fairly close in tanking ability I think. I do think we are in the lead there, I just don't think we are in the lead by nearly as much as we have given up in damage potential. My stances don't get used much but most everything I have is adept 1. Adept 3 doesn't seem to be so much better for the very high cost and my small guild has no alckemist I can impose on for a steady supply of adept 3's. But still.. even if I had adept 3 across the board I find it difficult to believe I'd be in their ballpark for damage. Do you find your damage dealing to be comparable to other agressive tankers considering your relative defensive abilities? Sorry if that is a confusing question... but basically do you feel your offense + defense (roughly) = their offensive + their defense. <div></div>

[FlintAH]

I have all adept 3 or better skills and can unleash a beatdown for solo mobs(high yellow) in less than 2 cycles through my dmg skills, less if they are undead. It is nowhere near as fast as my ranger, but it still seems pretty quick to me, and I can take a lot more hits than the RANGAH!!! <p>Message Edited by FlintAH on <span class=date_text>01-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:41 PM</span>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<DIV>Fight groups of mobs. Our AE skills (at least at higher levels) are much more impressive then our single target attacks as far as sheer DPS potential. Consider boosting your offensive stance and potentially some +Int items if you are looking for more damage as a whole.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But don't confuse things... Good agro control and HP's are everything. Your DPS is fractional if you're in a group with DPS'ers in and of themselves.</DIV>

[Thaenatos]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> My stances don't get used much <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You should always have a stance up, I average offensive 95% of the time, and defensive when my group is taking on a high con named, I believe that there is no downside to always having one or the other up.<BR>

[Celedon Silvertree]

Well, a lot of good tips.. and a lot of encouragement. Perhapse I need to revisit some of my strategy (stances) and upgrade some abilities to Adept 3. I have a lot to think about. Maybe the gap isn't as large as I think it is. Thanks for the help and tips. (and the omision of flames!) <div></div>

[Boli32]

Pally DPS sucks... outclassed by everything (by a significant margin) and just above clerics and guardians. The trick is to get with a duo partner as pallys make the best duos in the game IMHO in particular wizards I found.. in small groups we can count as both the tank and the healer; all you need to do it keep yourself alive and hold agro and you'll have a DPS friend for life. <div></div>

[kdg68b]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> boli wrote:<BR>Pally DPS sucks... outclassed by everything (by a significant margin) and just above clerics and guardians.<BR><BR>The trick is to get with a duo partner as pallys make the best duos in the game IMHO in particular wizards I found.. in small groups we can count as both the tank and the healer; <FONT color=#ff0000>all you need to do it keep yourself alive</FONT> and hold agro and you'll have a DPS friend for life.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Perhaps easier said than done these days with all the stuns mobs are throwing at us.  Still very true though.  I have found that Pally/Necro duo is quite killer these days.  Both have heals, just incase you get into trouble.  Both have a rez, just incase you really get into trouble.  And if things are going bad you can let the Necro's pet have agro and run for the hills.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as our DPS goes, don't think twice about it, because it doesn't exist.  We kill slowly but as long as you don't bite off more than you can chew you will come out on top 100% of the time.  Not having your Offensive stance up at all times while soloing is going to hurt you significantly.</DIV>

[wowmakeitst]

<DIV>Your a Paladin, your DPS sucks plain and simple it doesnt matter if you have 100% Master I. Paladins kill by outlasting their opponent and wearing them down not burning them down. If you wish to burn stuff down you should probably find another class.</DIV>

[Jorel7]

<P>I don't know... I'm a lvl41 Paladin. I have almost all of my skills at AD3 or M1/2. I just got myself a Royal Great Flail and I think I do pretty good DPS when soloing. The difference is very big if I go into 1h+shield and use def stance though... then it will take a while to kill.</P> <P>Hmmm... maybe I just don't know what good DPS is, but the mobs goes down pretty quick when I engage them, using the 2h setup.</P> <P>The key might be to upgrade as many spells/abilities to a high rank and then use a good dmg weapon with the off stance.</P>

[Celedon Silvertree]

Tried the advice out last night. Went out and upgraded my 2 hander to the best I could afford (can't afford Fabled)... upgraded a few CAs as best I could and kept offensice stance up while soloing. I did see a noticable improvement in my DPS when I didn't heal or ward (one ward justg before the pull excepted) and just cycled the HOs and better CAs as fast I as I could. Not too bad. Thanks for the advice. It strikes me as slightly odd that I don't use my class defining abiltities (healing and warding) in most of the solo fights in order to get a good DPS and experience over time rate. However I can't argue with results. But it is nice that my defensives are still there when the going gets rough. Thanks for the advice. <div></div>

[Hamervelder]

Wait till level 44 bro.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Our utility in a group goes up greatly.  We get a 100% health combat rez, and you can pick a Master II group heal at lvl 44.  IIRC, it does like 750 points heal, and can be used about every 8 seconds or so.  Get Adept I Clarion Call at lvl 45, and we're agro machines.  We still take a year and a day to hack through mobs solo, but we're great tanks.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I can take a beating like nobody's business, <EM>and</EM> I can self-heal over 3k points in a matter of seconds, unlike the damage-dealing monks, bruisers, or zerkers.  Now, if only SoE would un-nerf Oath Strike and its follow ups, and reduce the ridiculous 60-second timer on that and the 30-second timer on most of our other CA's, as well as lower the power-usage, like they were supposed to, we'll be in business.

[Celedon Silvertree]

I had the weirdest feeling when I switched back to 2 hander use from 1 hander. It is almost like my CAs were recharging faster (or maybe they were taking longer to activate?) because I always seemed to have one ready. When I am using a 1 hander and shield it seems like I don't have a CA to activate most of the time. Perhapse it is just perception because my fights are shorter due to higher DPS. <div></div>

[FlintAH]

You have more dmg skills when you use 2h. <div></div>

[Celedon Silvertree]

Just one... and it replaces blinding bash so it is really the same number of CAs total that are usable. I think it was probably the weapon delay that is making them fire slower.. or it's just me. <div></div>

[Bladewind]

<P>As someone said above, master offensive stance and a RGF at T5 turns a paladin into a terror.   I can't compare to when my monk was in t5 since that was under the old combat system, but I have no real complaints.  I'd say my dps is roughly 60-70% of a same level brawler, but that gets boosted of i am fighting multi-mob encounters and/or undead.  I love seeing the self buff proc, the group proc, and the rgf all fire off of one hit and knock over 1k off of a mob <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Add our wards and heals to that, and you have a soloing juggernaut.  </P> <P>As far as tanking goes, having 3 true aoes (including an adept 3 version of the bloodlines spell, doom judgement), amends (even the weakened version), and standard single/area taunts at your disposal makes you the best aggro manager in town.  I cry on my monk as I wearily cycle through targets fighting to hold aggro while thinking about my paladin spamming area attacks and holding aggro on multiple encounters without switching targets <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Also of note, the lvl 25 rescue skill continually improves as you level, so I owuld highly recommend getting an adept 3 and even hunting for a master.  I think the lvl 60 version on my monk transfers over 3k hate, lol.</P> <P>My impression halfway through T5 is that paldin does acceptable dps when properly outfitted, solos exceptionally well, and tanks very well.  When I tank, I switch to a 1 hander and a shield, and defensive stance if the mobs are high yellow or harder.  As was also said earlier, you get tremendous benefits from your stances, so you should always be using one or the other.  I think the master version of the lvl 32 offense gives 79 int/wis and a significant boost to weapon skills at a relatively minor cost to your defensive skills.  This really allows me to jack up my damage output. Also, my alt is a jeweler, so I have one of each ring handy for buffing and am basically permabuffed with +15-25 to every stat when facing anything challenging.</P>

[Bladewind]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Celedon Silvertree wrote:<BR>Just one... and it replaces blinding bash so it is really the same number of CAs total that are usable. I think it was probably the weapon delay that is making them fire slower.. or it's just me.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I've noticed the same.  I *think* the delay gets added to the cycle time.

[Celedon Silvertree]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bladewind wrote:<p>As someone said above, master offensive stance and a RGF at T5 turns a paladin into a terror.  </p><hr></blockquote> Heh.. I'm a casual player. I spend my time gaming.. not farming for rares to get an Adpet3. I've seen maybe 2 rares in my whole EQII experience. As far as master drops... never even seen one. Lifetime savings is about a plat.. but I could scrape together 2 or maybe even 3 if I really had to.. it would take a while. In short... a master is going to have to drop out of the sky allong with a bunch of angels before I ever see one. Now if it is a Master II upgrade possibility thats another matter entirely. Point taken though.. it's on my important to upgrade list. But if I have to blow a huge chunk of cash on one thing it's probably going to be a weapon. (Have a decent Legendary now.. Axe of the Wyrmslayer or something like that.) Dunno what RGF is. Guessing a T5 weapon. When do you get this third AOE? I have one CA and one spell. Both are nice and I use them even against singles cause they really help with the damage output.</span> <span><span><blockquote><hr> <p>My impression halfway through T5 is that paldin does acceptable dps when properly outfitted, solos exceptionally well, and tanks very well. </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>Well.. that would be nice to see. I am happier with the results so far, but I still think we got seriously over nerfed compared to the offensive tanking classes. (But PLEASE don't nerf them too SOE!)</span><div></div>

[Bladewind]

<P>The royal great flail is a fabled t5 weapon that drops from rognog in the cove of decay raid instance.  For a relatively cheap, but effective 2 hander, you could look into an imbued cedar pike.  This will not be as nice as a rgf, but will be the equal of any legendary t5 weapon such as the ebbc or imbued ebon, and will cost much less.  I have seen cedars sell for about 25g recently.</P> <P>If you spend a chunk of time harvesting, you should get a few rubies/rhodiums.  Alternatively, they sell for 30-40 g (on mistmoore at least).  I'd recommend having both of your stances upgraded to adept 3 if possible.  And those rare master drops do happen, but you can't count on them.</P> <P>The third aoe spell, doom judgement, is part of the bloodlines adventure pack,a nd is usable at lvl 35 and above.  You do not gain this spell automatically as you level.  You get access to the ap 2 version if you complete 3 quests for one of the bloodline camps in nek forest.  Alternatively, alchemists get the recipe for the app 4 (common t4 ink) and adept 3 (requires opal/ruthenium) versions in spellbooks they can purchase in low level tradeskill instances called "Alchemist K'lorn Magic' and 'Advanced Alchemist K'lorn Magic,' respectively.  This spell does very nice damage (400ish to the area at adept 3) and dispels buffs on the target encounter.</P> <DIV>I feel we tank extremely well at this point, and that any perceived benefits you see from brawlers are well-offset from disadvantages you do not see.  Although I tank well with my monk, it takes a lot of work and skill.  When I play my paladin alt, I can tank just as well with far less effort.  For soloing, the monk kills faster, but the paladin kills *safer*.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Bladewind on <span class=date_text>01-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:38 AM</span>

[Femur]

<div></div><div>This is a very good thread and I'm glad to have read it.  I have an imbued ebon greatsword and am very happy with the damage but for some reason I i find I've neglected my offensive stance.  I'll have to look into using it more as the only times I've used it regularly is when off-tanking in a group.  I highly reccoment doom judgement as the extra aoe can really be a life saver when you take on a group of mobs that are a threat.  I believe the cool down on it is around 5ish minutes so it's not an every encounter type of attack but if you hang onto it and plan it's use it can make a world of difference.  I like to use it when soloing groups or when tanking a group with dps classes.  A pull followed by the taunts and all 3 aoe's on a group can really make holding aggro that much easier, particularly when going for a hard heroic group.  But, as always, make sure your not going to pull a whole room to you when you unload your aoe's. :smileytongue:</div><div> </div><div>The other think I find i've neglected is my jewlery, I think I'm selling myself short by not upgrading it.  Something to look into.</div><div> </div><div>Thanks to all for the insights in this wonderful (non-flaming) thread.  It's a wonderful change from all the whining and finding a constructive thread like this is what keeps me reading the boards. :smileyvery-happy:</div>

[FlintAH]

The 2h weapon CA has half the recast time of the shield bash one though so you can do it twice as often taking up 2 more seconds worth of down time which is a noticeable difference if you are chain casting.<div></div>

[Goozman]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>boli wrote:Pally DPS sucks... outclassed by everything (by a significant margin) and just above clerics and guardians.The trick is to get with a duo partner as pallys make the best duos in the game IMHO in particular wizards I found.. in small groups we can count as both the tank and the healer; all you need to do it keep yourself alive and hold agro and you'll have a DPS friend for life.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Erm. I was playin my 51 paladin the other day, figured I'd try to do SC access with a group. Tanked the whole time in Offensive. I tied with the ranger in damage most of the time, and beat the Brigand regularly. Paladin DPS does not suck. No class I have ever played sucks at damage if you are playing it well. Tho my own wizard, paladin, monk, and fury will never beat my own ranger, and my own paladin, monk, and fury will never beat my own wizard, I can (and do) beat other rangers on my wizard, and other wizards on my monk, etc... /brag off

[Celedon Silvertree]

Update:Ok.. definately an improvement.. I found another contributing factor. If you take a look at the paladin CA/spell progression.. you don't get many offensive upgrades in the 30's at all. Most of my CA's were 10 levels out of date.. and I hadn't been able to get them to Adept 3 back when I got them in the 20's. I must have been too busy doing armor quests. But the first couple levels in the 40's saw upgrades to those spells. So I was in lavastorm yesterday.. and I was seriously impressed by how much this and other tips improved my DPS. There was a wizard of the same level nuking mobs next to me and I noticed he finished off his mobs about 1 second before I finished mine.. if that. Well.. I can't complain about that.Thanks to everyone for the help and for keeping this a clean and flame retardant thread.<div></div>

[Hamervelder]

<div>Mate, my advice, as a paladin-player (lvl 47) is to hold out for a few more levels before you decide to re-roll.  Our utility and damage abilities really go up at about lvl 44 or 45.  Some things I'd recommend:</div><div> </div><div> - Go do the HQ "The teaching of Yoru" and get the Flowing Black Silk Sash, which gives you 15% haste, thus, more DPS.</div><div> - Go and find a 2-handed weapon called Granite Great Flail.  Great stats, in-combat power regen proc, and it does a massive amount of damage.  More than any other T5 melee weapon I've seen. </div><div> - Wait a few more levels before you re-roll.  I forget which level it is, but we get a new offensive stance in the low to mid 40's that really helps ou damage output.</div><div> - Upgrade some of your CA's, especially Refusal of Grace.</div><div> - Go do the quest to kill the Ancient Watcher.  You can get a ring at the end that gives another 3% haste.</div><div> </div><div>Yes, that's a lot of work, but it's a lot less than re-rolling a new toon and leveling up again.  Sure, we paladins solo slowly, but we can output a lot of damage if played right.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[kopingOwen]

since i´ve been tierd of my main i´ve played up a palladin, he is lv 50 now (10 days played and no PLing)We have low dps true, not as bad as guardian but i guess there is were we should be since we got heals. We kill slow not as slow as guardian or any of the healer classes(even tho at times i feel like  a gimep healer wearing the mobs down bit by bit).My advice is undead are your friends =) i´ve found that killing undeads is great fun since we increase our dps alot (feels like it compared to what we usually do)but as much as i found solo undeads fun i would suggest grping or atleast duo =) duo is great fun get a dps or another tank and your set!i duo alot but i´ve yet to try duo undeads with a templar o.O it must be crazy since both classes have 2x damage attacks against undead i don´t think the dps will suck that bad and.. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] the beating the duo could take?? think i gonna try to find one and go xp in LT and after awile progress to SC would be ok i think