Paladin strengths and weaknesses

[Daedr]

<div></div><div>Let me start out by saying, I love my Paladin above all of my other characters of which i have 9 others. I have played at least one of each archetype to level 30. My paladin is level 56 almost 57, and i have a level 60 coercer. I have seen play at all stages in all zones of the game and i run a realtime parser at all time. That being said, I personally have noticed these main issues with my paladin in regards to other tanks.</div><div> </div><div>1) DPS - We have far less dps than any other tank (our best dps is in group encounters/fighting undead)</div><div> a. Offensive stance is a joke. It makes little to no difference in a fight whether or not we use this, and it SHOULD make a huge difference for the amount of mitigation and avoidance we lose.</div><div> b. 2 handed weapons make little to no difference until we run out of power forcing us to stop mashing buttons. I'd rather use a 1 hander and a shield regardless of whether or not i am tanking or trying to add dps to a group.</div><div> c. We lost alot of dps since LU#13 and it wasn't made up for in any way, shape or form.</div><div>2) HP - We were given BY DESIGN the least amount of HP of any tank (possibly because we are able to heal) This is just stupid by design....</div><div>  a. The offset to this was supposed to be that we have more power, yet this is not/nor has it ever been the case.</div><div>3. Mitigation - With the way the new treasured/fabled/crafted armor works YOU MUST HAVE LEGENDARY/FABLED TO TANK</div><div> a. If we go for mitigation to become main tanks, we cannot find gear that has nice stats designed for our class.</div><div> b. We have NO -NON - NADA mitigation buffs. Let me stress this point, becaue the buffs we have are just ridiculous for tanks. All other fighters get mitigation buffs but us. There is nothing to offset this.</div><div>4. Stat Gear - Our stats are all over the place, str/wis for power, int for damage, wis for resists, agi for avoidance (kinda). Other tanks can focus on strength only for power, and agility for avoidance (kinda- i say this because in all my parses agility has made nil difference in whether i get hit now or not. but it is supposed to i think.)</div><div> a. Our buff lines aren't very well targeted to compensate for having such a wide range of stat issues. offensive stance should add some DPS haste along with STR/INT increases to actually have any impact on our DPS which was its intent, I am speculating.</div><div>  b. Our Ranged slot was empty for so long giving any NON- CRUSADER class a distinct advantage over us. Now, we get to have a token stat item that was originally intended for mages/healers. Kinda bunk if ya asked me, and since your reading my post, I am assuming you did.</div><div>5. Perception of Paladins based mainly on Guardians - this is the biggest and by far the most damaging drawback to being a Paladin. I will expand below...</div><div> a. As a whole the guardians have taken it as thier goal to become the ONE AN ONLY RAID TANKS. Thereby, trashing the tanking abilities of all the rest with lies, inuendo and out right hostility in most cases.</div><div> b. Paladins usually accept the Offtank role and are quite capable in this capacity. IT DOES NOT MEAN that is all we can do.</div><div> c. Guardians have on many many many occasions tried to persuade raid leaders that THEY AND ONLY THEY should be MT for raids, based only on the assumption that all they can do is tank, therefore they are THE BEST TANK. Offering no real evidence to this fact I might add.</div><div> </div><div>Now that I have the Bad ot of the way I am going to go into the Good:</div><div> </div><div>1) Wards- We have awesome wards.</div><div>  a. When our wards aren't used up and knocked off of you, they will cast a heal for the remainder of the wards value.</div><div>  b. They mitigate dmg now, so stay longer and are an immeasurable defense when combined with shield bashes and kicks.</div><div>  c. They generate hate for us!</div><div>  d. While safe behind our wards, we have time to throw much needed heals. Keeping us leaps and bounds ahead of other tanks in survivability.</div><div>2) Heals - They are our lifeblood, and sometimes our bane....</div><div>  a. We have really decent heals now, self and group, making us viable secondary healers or in some small groups we pull double duty as MT and primary healer.</div><div>     1. this is sometimes a good thing and sometimes a bad thing....as any pally can tell you.</div><div>   b. Don't really have anything to put here but say that I really do like our heals now =P</div><div>3) Aggro control post 50 - well this is a bit of an iffy subject as I am writing this Amends is being nerfed.../sigh tha bastids....</div><div>  a. Amends - put it on your favorite DPSer and have them work for you! ( meh get adept 3, and tell em to not go crazy after this (*&(*&*&^**&ing patch )</div><div>  b. Sigil of heroism, sure its a crappy version of Call to Arms pre-nerf Tuesday (I like to call it BLACK TUESDAY) but it can really make a bad situation go your way.</div><div>  c. Get Splitpaw adventure pack, throw away your taunt over time, and use the Splitpaw taunt, all at once is better and sometimes, it will proc an extra taunt for the same power cost...just my own suggestion.</div><div>4) WE ARE RAID TANKS !!!</div><div>  a. With Cobalt gear, the right ring buffs, and a well coordinated raid, (which is  really what any tank depends on for a decent raid) we CAN/HAVE been very successful raid tanks. </div><div>   b. All of the goods I listed above are the reasons we are viable raid tanks, our shields and not to mention our very very nice self heal and LoH make us quite good.</div><div> </div><div>  </div><div>This post was meant to be informative. Take it at face value, spam it, do what you will....its my 2 cents.</div><div> </div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by Daedron on <span class="date_text">01-10-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:44 AM</span></p>

[Zoren Northwood]

<div><font color="#ff0000">  a. Offensive stance is a joke. It makes little to no difference in a fight whether or not we use this, and it SHOULD make a huge difference for the amount of mitigation and avoidance we lose.</font> Not sure how you can say this.  I notice a big difference with offensive stance on. </div> <div><font color="#ff0000">  c. We lost alot of dps since LU#13 and it wasn't made up for in any way, shape or form.</font> Well, to some extent that's because our DPS was far too high to begin with.  But we have been given stuff since then to make up for it -- better aggro management being the main thing.  Yes, Amends is being nerfed, but it'll still be useful. </div> <div><font color="#ff0000">  b. We have NO -NON - NADA mitigation buffs. Let me stress this point, becaue the buffs we have are just ridiculous for tanks. All other fighters get mitigation buffs but us. There is nothing to offset this. <font color="#ffffff">Well, we get a defense buff.</font> </font></div> <div><font color="#ff0000">4. Stat Gear - Our stats are all over the place, str/wis for power, int for damage, wis for resists, agi for avoidance (kinda). Other tanks can focus on strength only for power, and agility for avoidance (kinda- i say this because in all my parses agility has made nil difference in whether i get hit now or not. but it is supposed to i think.)</font></div> <div> That's true -- we do require the greatest variety of stats of all tanks.  Why you didn't expect that, having consciously chosen a hybrid class, I have no idea... </div> <div><font color="#ff0000">  b. Our Ranged slot was empty for so long giving any NON- CRUSADER class a distinct advantage over us. Now, we get to have a token stat item that was originally intended for mages/healers. Kinda bunk if ya asked me, and since your reading my post, I am assuming you did. <font color="#ffffff">What are you talking about?  There are tank-oriented crusader range items.  Granted, they're not quite as good as an ironwood bow, which stinks.  But they're there.  It's not all wis/int. </font></font></div> <div></div>

[Crib92]

<P>A good example of a Pally choice is the The Cobalt Tablet.</P> <P> </P> <P>Buffs str, sta, and agi</P> <P> </P>

[Majorminor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crib92 wrote:<BR> <P>A good example of a Pally choice is the The Cobalt Tablet.</P> <P> </P> <P>Buffs str, sta, and agi</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's what I use, Love it, wouldn't be caught dead without it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>I have to say other than this amends nerf i am pretty happy how paladins have been treated since LU 13, With the addition of symbols i have gained some nice stats plus +60 on mitigation/and resists plus health with the vanadium symbol i use.  At Level 57 my Paladin is around 5,100 hitpoints and 2,700 power self buffed and enjoying the benefits of mostly adept 3 spells with a few masters and adept1 mixed in.  I know they are not earth shattering statistics but when i compare to other fighter types around my level i dont feel like a second class citizen.  I agree there are some spells we have that still need tweaking and i like that as i level i become more efficent at agro and dps/utility versus some other characters.  Would be nice if they revised our two handed attack line to either do 50 percent more damage or have a life tap similar to the condemnation line or the old trining spell we use to have.  Would also like to see our defensive stance have double or triple the wisdom attached to it to see if it would truely help on tougher mobs spell casting against us, i thiink the amount we have now is not enough, but i can live with that also.  I have nothing but smiles when going against undead mobs and seeing multiple procs kick in and take their health down.  When i started a paladin i never thought to have a dps class and that is how it is we outlast our oppenents and  do better than average damage to undead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess i will start back to hitting tier 5 epics again and hope to see a amends master 1 drop to put me to where my adept 3 is now...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Take care guys and i look forward to playing my pallie for quite some time heheh...</DIV>

[Anzak]

<span><blockquote><hr>Majorminor wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Crib92 wrote: <p>A good example of a Pally choice is the The Cobalt Tablet.</p> <p>Buffs str, sta, and agi</p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>It's what I use, Love it, wouldn't be caught dead without it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Yeah it is really nice.  I like the extra resists over the Ironwood bow.  Though I'm not sure how much +6 STA makes on HP.  I think the Ironwood is +6 more STA but has about 30 less HP so not sure if that balances out.  It also gives the same in STR and AGI but I'm not so worried about them.  The big one for me is STA.  I'm still running about 70 STA from the cap with full raid buffs any place I can pick up more is good.  Though I do check items that give STA upgrades vs HP to see if an older Item gives more total HP in the end.</span><div></div>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daedron wrote:<BR> <DIV>Let me start out by saying, I love my Paladin above all of my other characters of which i have 9 others. I have played at least one of each archetype to level 30. My paladin is level 56 almost 57, and i have a level 60 coercer. I have seen play at all stages in all zones of the game and i run a realtime parser at all time. That being said, I personally have noticed these main issues with my paladin in regards to other tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) DPS - We have far less dps than any other tank (our best dps is in group encounters/fighting undead)</DIV> <DIV>  a. Offensive stance is a joke. It makes little to no difference in a fight whether or not we use this, and it SHOULD make a huge difference for the amount of mitigation and avoidance we lose. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>offensive stance does make a difference the +int helps land more spells and our dps is increased i use it if i have a couple healers in my pocket and i'm not expecting to get stomped right away</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  b. 2 handed weapons make little to no difference until we run out of power forcing us to stop mashing buttons. I'd rather use a 1 hander and a shield regardless of whether or not i am tanking or trying to add dps to a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>2 hander does make a difference from what i've noticed i almost exclusivly used a 2 hander for lvls 20-37 then went to using a shield when i had to tank tougher crap post 37 and i did notice a difference in the damage output using a 1 hander, and you prolly shouldn't be mashing buttons anyways if you really wanna be successful as a tank, keep the agro and let the rest of the group burn it down as a tank your main job is to keep their attention and keep your group alive, not dps...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  c. We lost alot of dps since LU#13 and it wasn't made up for in any way, shape or form. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>you're a plate tank, plate tanks don't do dps - you want dps go for an avoidance tank like a monk or bruiser...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) HP - We were given BY DESIGN the least amount of HP of any tank (possibly because we are able to heal) This is just stupid by design....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>why is it stupid when you will absorbe/recover near the same amount of damage a plate tank that can't heal without potions or a healer? the plate tanks are about on par with eachother, each having it's strengths or weaknesses over eachother...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   a. The offset to this was supposed to be that we have more power, yet this is not/nor has it ever been the case.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>i'm finding my ability to manage my power usage much easier now than pre LU13...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Mitigation - With the way the new treasured/fabled/crafted armor works YOU MUST HAVE LEGENDARY/FABLED TO TANK</DIV> <DIV>  a. If we go for mitigation to become main tanks, we cannot find gear that has nice stats designed for our class. </DIV> <DIV>  b. We have NO -NON - NADA mitigation buffs. Let me stress this point, becaue the buffs we have are just ridiculous for tanks. All other fighters get mitigation buffs but us. There is nothing to offset this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>pallys are meant to resist divine/magic/mental attacks, we have wards and our defensive stance for physical damage...you can tank in normal gear, it may not be as easy but it's possible...and besides being a plate tank is VERY expensive...you just have to learn to live with it...i've found plenty of stuff in RV that would have been nice to my pally in his 40s if i had not already had a set of ebon...there are rings etc that help you with the stats you wanna improve upon</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Stat Gear - Our stats are all over the place, str/wis for power, int for damage, wis for resists, agi for avoidance (kinda). Other tanks can focus on strength only for power, and agility for avoidance (kinda- i say this because in all my parses agility has made nil difference in whether i get hit now or not. but it is supposed to i think.)</DIV> <DIV>  a. Our buff lines aren't very well targeted to compensate for having such a wide range of stat issues. offensive stance should add some DPS haste along with STR/INT increases to actually have any impact on our DPS which was its intent, I am speculating. </DIV> <DIV>  b. Our Ranged slot was empty for so long giving any NON- CRUSADER class a distinct advantage over us. Now, we get to have a token stat item that was originally intended for mages/healers. Kinda bunk if ya asked me, and since your reading my post, I am assuming you did.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>it's better than not being able to use the ranged slot at all, and i kinda like what you can get for t6 stuff to fit in that slot...the tablets have a nice set of stats on them</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. Perception of Paladins based mainly on Guardians - this is the biggest and by far the most damaging drawback to being a Paladin. I will expand below...</DIV> <DIV>  a. As a whole the guardians have taken it as thier goal to become the ONE AN ONLY RAID TANKS. Thereby, trashing the tanking abilities of all the rest with lies, inuendo and out right hostility in most cases. </DIV> <DIV>  b. Paladins usually accept the Offtank role and are quite capable in this capacity. IT DOES NOT MEAN that is all we can do. </DIV> <DIV>  c. Guardians have on many many many occasions tried to persuade raid leaders that THEY AND ONLY THEY should be MT for raids, based only on the assumption that all they can do is tank, therefore they are THE BEST TANK. Offering no real evidence to this fact I might add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>if all you wanna do is tank raids then roll a guardian, i have no issue with playing buff bot to a class that CAN BE supperior to mine for an encounter...this is all based on ego, so some guardians get it in their head that they are the only effective tank, so what that's the player not the system, and pallys that wanna tank eventhough another class can prolly take the encounter better is all on the player not the system...by picking a pally you have to realize that sometimes you're gonna have to play second fiddle, if you play it right you can bring a lot to a raid and ensure success </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that I have the Bad ot of the way I am going to go into the Good:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Wards- We have awesome wards. </DIV> <DIV>   a. When our wards aren't used up and knocked off of you, they will cast a heal for the remainder of the wards value.</DIV> <DIV>   b. They mitigate dmg now, so stay longer and are an immeasurable defense when combined with shield bashes and kicks.</DIV> <DIV>   c. They generate hate for us! </DIV> <DIV>   d. While safe behind our wards, we have time to throw much needed heals. Keeping us leaps and bounds ahead of other tanks in survivability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>the wards aren't going to keep you safe from being interrupted...using a stun before a ward/heal combo is a good idea...especially with an aoe stun...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Heals - They are our lifeblood, and sometimes our bane....</DIV> <DIV>   a. We have really decent heals now, self and group, making us viable secondary healers or in some small groups we pull double duty as MT and primary healer.</DIV> <DIV>      1. this is sometimes a good thing and sometimes a bad thing....as any pally can tell you.</DIV> <DIV>   b. Don't really have anything to put here but say that I really do like our heals now =P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>our heals suck compared to LU 13, i only use them in an emergency, and i'm fine with that...only one that's worth anything is the emergency heal and that works out pretty well as a hate generator and a HUGE boost in your HP in a pinch...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Aggro control post 50 - well this is a bit of an iffy subject as I am writing this Amends is being nerfed.../sigh tha bastids....</DIV> <DIV>   a. Amends - put it on your favorite DPSer and have them work for you! ( meh get adept 3, and tell em to not go crazy after this (*&(*&*&^**&ing patch ) </DIV> <DIV>   b. Sigil of heroism, sure its a crappy version of Call to Arms pre-nerf Tuesday (I like to call it BLACK TUESDAY) but it can really make a bad situation go your way.</DIV> <DIV>   c. Get Splitpaw adventure pack, throw away your taunt over time, and use the Splitpaw taunt, all at once is better and sometimes, it will proc an extra taunt for the same power cost...just my own suggestion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>i don't think you're going to need to worry all that much about amends being nerfed, you will still have more hate than the person you put it on as long as you start genning hate before they do...taunt over time is helpful especially if you get stifled or stunned, you're still generating hate if its up when it happens even though you can't do anything at the moment...the ae taunt decreases divine mitigation so tossing that in helps the rest of your CAs and spells...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) WE ARE RAID TANKS !!!</DIV> <DIV>   a. With Cobalt gear, the right ring buffs, and a well coordinated raid, (which is  really what any tank depends on for a decent raid) we CAN/HAVE been very successful raid tanks. (Tell guards to step down and you take thier place, i guarantee you can do it if you are any kind of a decent pally)</DIV> <DIV>   b. All of the goods I listed above are the reasons we are viable raid tanks, our shields and not to mention our very very nice self heal and LoH make us quite good.</DIV> <DIV>   c. Guardian buffs are group now, so guess what....OT city for you Guards. that right I said it. Have a Guardian in group to give YOU the AC/Mit buffs needed cuz your self heals are gonna be a lifesaver in those final moments in some raids when its down to the wire, healers are OOP and  the mob just punked you into the red. </DIV> <DIV>  </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>i have no problem OTing if the guardian is gonna fit the encounter better as a tank, trying to tell them that they've been put in their place is a little too arogant, it's not about ego it's about skill and utility, if my buffs are going to make things go easier having the guardian tank then so be it...i'd rather play back up healer/buffer to a guardian MT in a raid or OTing for another non MT raid group to keep the raid members alive in situations that call for it then playing the ego card and telling the guardian to step off...strategy wins over ego 99% of the time...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS I really do hate Guardians that much....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>maybe you should roll one up and see what it is they have to offer, they are quite awesome as tanks...i have one and i like him very much but i'm partial to my pally...i like to play a lot of the different classes to see what it is they do to be able to tank for them or support them more effectively</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Daedr]

<DIV>You broke everything i said down, and on the bads you wrote goods...on the goods, you wrote bads....unfortunately I am thinking you have either not gone past 55 or are just on this board trying to get a reaction from me.</DIV> <DIV>If you're going to post, post something useful. Everything i posted was what I personally noticed while playing. Which depends wholely on MY playstyle. I played my paladin Pre-Nerf and Post Nerf. I wouldn't play a guardian because, frankly, they don't look all that fun. I like the utility of the paladin, the fact that I am not bound by needing a healer for everything worthwhile. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Daedron on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:04 AM</span>

[Daedr]

<P> I run a parser, I run it while soloing and while grouped, sometimes when I am MT and sometimes when someone else is MT. Its not what I noticed, its what i parsed in the situations. And NO a 2 hander makes no difference, if you take the time to realize that if you are soloing, you are button mashing most of the time, so basically you are using your skills/spells for dmg not the weapon rating. I have parsed it, and when i realized that I keep the Screaming Mace and my Crimson Rock Targ on at all times. Offensive stance really doesn't add enuff dps to make up for the amount of dmg you will take due to the loss of mit/avoidance and resists of not being in def stance. Maybe in a long fight, as an offtank this stance could have some merit...but most long fights are raids, and i prefer using the Screaming Mace over my prismatic greatsword for the power procs, and the shield for the interupts from shield bash. My playstyle, my thread, my opinion...take it or leave it.</P> <P>Akrysos L58 Paladin Oasis Server </P> <P>Trippy L60 Coercer Oasis Server</P> <p>Message Edited by Daedron on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:08 AM</span>

[Daedr]

Zoren has some Valid points, But lets face it. We did get shafted when they changed the way armor worked on Black Tuesday. I was quite happy with my treasured gear with all the nice stats in all the right places at L50. Then the next day my mitigations was so crappy i was getting creamed by regular blue con solo mobs. So i bit the bullet, bought all ebon and had my def stance adept 3'd, so I could tank again...but my stats suffered. Also, wisdom no longer made a hige impact on our power pool as it did before (str adds more power tho wis does still affect it some) and agility really played no large part in avoidance so my jewelry was obsolete as well. All in all, the Black Tuesday patch drained my coffers just to achieve a modicrum of tankability again. But after relearning to play my class (of which i thought was kindy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty at L50) I started enjoying it again. Granted it took playing a coercer to L60 to really bring me back to my paladin. But, I digress, I originally meant for this post to be somewhere that young pallies could go and get a glimpse of what they had to look forward to in the future, and I took a few shots at the guardian class, mainly because I think its really a dull crap class (which is my opinion and mine alone) that has made my life as a paladin a chore on many occasions. My win/lose ratio vs hard mobs and or raid mobs is much better than even the best geared tank in my guild and the other 4 guilds we are allied with. So telling me to roll a guardian, if i wanna tank raids is just plain and simple -BS. Once we start stepping up, Guards will be just another buff in the MT group, not the MT. We have some great tools and  we have some drawbacks, but If played well, the pally is by far one of the most useful, interesting classes in the game and not just a taunt/aggro losing machine like guardians. And, we can/will tank the hardest mobs in game and be successfull. The Guardians aren't the end all be all of raid tanks, paladins, zerks, and sk's can MT raid mobs just as well with a raidleader and raid that know how to handle themselves. If you accept that the guards are the best raid tanks, you just haven't pushed the envelope far enuff on the paladin class. My opinion, my thread...and yes I still hate the guards that much. <p>Message Edited by Daedron on <span class=date_text>12-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:17 AM</span>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daedron wrote:<BR> <DIV>You broke everything i said down, and on the bads you wrote goods...on the goods, you wrote bads....unfortunately I am thinking you have either not gone past 55 or are just on this board trying to get a reaction from me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>i'm not trying to get a reaction i'm just stating my impression and what i know about guardians vs pallys, i'm a die hard pally, and prolly will always be one...trying to call someone out on the basis of the level of their toons is neither constructive no useful since all it is is trying to make yourself sound bigger and badder than anyone else...when there isn't anything someone can say to counter a point then they play the "i'm uber lvl xx" card so you have nothing to input...it's a load of crap and just really bad form to continue a constructive debate...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you're going to post, post something useful. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>b/c someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make their oppinion useless...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everything i posted was what I personally noticed while playing. Which depends wholely on MY playstyle. I played my paladin Pre-Nerf and Post Nerf. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>as are my comments and experience</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldn't play a guardian because, frankly, they don't look all that fun. I like the utility of the paladin, the fact that I am not bound by needing a healer for everything worthwhile. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>then fine, don't play a guardian, but saying they suck b/c yer not interested is neither useful or informative, telling guardians that paladins are better tanks is folley...i'm not bound by having a healer with my guardian and can solo with him (and do) quite well...i can tank a group without a healer for difficult content if i have the right classes in the group...i preferr paladins b/c i like what they have to offer for my playstyle...i like guardians b/c i can take quite a bit of a beating and still survive without help...there is a big difference btwn what a pally and a guardian can take in combat...try it out you might like it and if you don't then you can delete the toon...</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Daedron on <SPAN class=date_text>12-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:04 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Daedr]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>i'm not trying to get a reaction i'm just stating my impression and what i know about guardians vs pallys, i'm a die hard pally, and prolly will always be one...trying to call someone out on the basis of the level of their toons is neither constructive no useful since all it is is trying to make yourself sound bigger and badder than anyone else...when there isn't anything someone can say to counter a point then they play the "i'm uber lvl xx" card so you have nothing to input...it's a load of crap and just really bad form to continue a constructive debate...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3333></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3333>I wasn't saying "look at me" i'm an uber L60...I was saying that the play at 60 isn't what it is at 50-55....so take it how you want it. And i don't beleive I asked for a debate, this being my thread, started in reality to give low to mid level paladins like yourself hope that you won't forever be an offtank. And yes, I did check your paladin and your guardian...You've been posting how great guardians are and you've not gone past 30 on your guard, and you are still L50 on your paladin, so how can you really say you've played it POST nerf?? You haven't even gotten the expansion spells in your hotbar yet. So, you really are talking out the wrong side of your face when you come on here trying to break all my info down, and you have no clue.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3333></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>If you're going to post, post something useful. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>b/c someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make their oppinion useless....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3333>Nothing I have seen from you has been anywhere near useful...you'e not offered any real insight to the class, offered any differing playstyle or anything. All you've put out is you like guardians and we should all go make one. Well, guess what....you're on the paladin boards. You wanna make one fine, great, good on ya...as for myself and many paladins i know, one awesome tank in my line up is fine with me. </FONT></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Daedron on <span class=date_text>12-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:33 AM</span>

[Daedr]

<DIV>If you decide to post anymore on here, just to let you know, this thread has dissembled from my original intention into a pally vs guardian debate, which is due in part to my snide comments about guardians and thier wholehearted suckage. (which no matter how many times a guard will come on here crying the greatness of thier class will i beleive) But, I will not be replying to anymore posts by guardians, or paladins on guardian's behalf. If you have any real suggestions or info on the class, I'll reply but if not, i consider this a dead thread, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you very much Gothic.</DIV>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daedron wrote:<BR> <DIV>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you very much Gothic.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>have a nice day <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Fatuus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daedron wrote:<BR> <DIV>Let me start out by saying, I love my Paladin above all of my other characters of which i have 9 others. I have played at least one of each archetype to level 30. My paladin is level 56 almost 57, and i have a level 60 coercer. I have seen play at all stages in all zones of the game and i run a realtime parser at all time. That being said, I personally have noticed these main issues with my paladin in regards to other tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) DPS - We have far less dps than any other tank (our best dps is in group encounters/fighting undead)</DIV> <DIV>  a. Offensive stance is a joke. It makes little to no difference in a fight whether or not we use this, and it SHOULD make a huge difference for the amount of mitigation and avoidance we lose. </DIV> <DIV>  b. 2 handed weapons make little to no difference until we run out of power forcing us to stop mashing buttons. I'd rather use a 1 hander and a shield regardless of whether or not i am tanking or trying to add dps to a group.</DIV> <DIV>  c. We lost alot of dps since LU#13 and it wasn't made up for in any way, shape or form. </DIV> <DIV>2) HP - We were given BY DESIGN the least amount of HP of any tank (possibly because we are able to heal) This is just stupid by design....</DIV> <DIV>   a. The offset to this was supposed to be that we have more power, yet this is not/nor has it ever been the case.</DIV> <DIV>3. Mitigation - With the way the new treasured/fabled/crafted armor works YOU MUST HAVE LEGENDARY/FABLED TO TANK</DIV> <DIV>  a. If we go for mitigation to become main tanks, we cannot find gear that has nice stats designed for our class. </DIV> <DIV>  b. We have NO -NON - NADA mitigation buffs. Let me stress this point, becaue the buffs we have are just ridiculous for tanks. All other fighters get mitigation buffs but us. There is nothing to offset this. </DIV> <DIV>4. Stat Gear - Our stats are all over the place, str/wis for power, int for damage, wis for resists, agi for avoidance (kinda). Other tanks can focus on strength only for power, and agility for avoidance (kinda- i say this because in all my parses agility has made nil difference in whether i get hit now or not. but it is supposed to i think.)</DIV> <DIV>  a. Our buff lines aren't very well targeted to compensate for having such a wide range of stat issues. offensive stance should add some DPS haste along with STR/INT increases to actually have any impact on our DPS which was its intent, I am speculating. </DIV> <DIV>  b. Our Ranged slot was empty for so long giving any NON- CRUSADER class a distinct advantage over us. Now, we get to have a token stat item that was originally intended for mages/healers. Kinda bunk if ya asked me, and since your reading my post, I am assuming you did.</DIV> <DIV>5. Perception of Paladins based mainly on Guardians - this is the biggest and by far the most damaging drawback to being a Paladin. I will expand below...</DIV> <DIV>  a. As a whole the guardians have taken it as thier goal to become the ONE AN ONLY RAID TANKS. Thereby, trashing the tanking abilities of all the rest with lies, inuendo and out right hostility in most cases. </DIV> <DIV>  b. Paladins usually accept the Offtank role and are quite capable in this capacity. IT DOES NOT MEAN that is all we can do. </DIV> <DIV>  c. Guardians have on many many many occasions tried to persuade raid leaders that THEY AND ONLY THEY should be MT for raids, based only on the assumption that all they can do is tank, therefore they are THE BEST TANK. Offering no real evidence to this fact I might add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now that I have the Bad ot of the way I am going to go into the Good:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Wards- We have awesome wards. </DIV> <DIV>   a. When our wards aren't used up and knocked off of you, they will cast a heal for the remainder of the wards value.</DIV> <DIV>   b. They mitigate dmg now, so stay longer and are an immeasurable defense when combined with shield bashes and kicks.</DIV> <DIV>   c. They generate hate for us! </DIV> <DIV>   d. While safe behind our wards, we have time to throw much needed heals. Keeping us leaps and bounds ahead of other tanks in survivability.</DIV> <DIV>2) Heals - They are our lifeblood, and sometimes our bane....</DIV> <DIV>   a. We have really decent heals now, self and group, making us viable secondary healers or in some small groups we pull double duty as MT and primary healer.</DIV> <DIV>      1. this is sometimes a good thing and sometimes a bad thing....as any pally can tell you.</DIV> <DIV>   b. Don't really have anything to put here but say that I really do like our heals now =P</DIV> <DIV>3) Aggro control post 50 - well this is a bit of an iffy subject as I am writing this Amends is being nerfed.../sigh tha bastids....</DIV> <DIV>   a. Amends - put it on your favorite DPSer and have them work for you! ( meh get adept 3, and tell em to not go crazy after this (*&(*&*&^**&ing patch ) </DIV> <DIV>   b. Sigil of heroism, sure its a crappy version of Call to Arms pre-nerf Tuesday (I like to call it BLACK TUESDAY) but it can really make a bad situation go your way.</DIV> <DIV>   c. Get Splitpaw adventure pack, throw away your taunt over time, and use the Splitpaw taunt, all at once is better and sometimes, it will proc an extra taunt for the same power cost...just my own suggestion.</DIV> <DIV>4) WE ARE RAID TANKS !!!</DIV> <DIV>   a. With Cobalt gear, the right ring buffs, and a well coordinated raid, (which is  really what any tank depends on for a decent raid) we CAN/HAVE been very successful raid tanks. (Tell guards to step down and you take thier place, i guarantee you can do it if you are any kind of a decent pally)</DIV> <DIV>   b. All of the goods I listed above are the reasons we are viable raid tanks, our shields and not to mention our very very nice self heal and LoH make us quite good.</DIV> <DIV>   c. Guardian buffs are group now, so guess what....OT city for you Guards. that right I said it. Have a Guardian in group to give YOU the AC/Mit buffs needed cuz your self heals are gonna be a lifesaver in those final moments in some raids when its down to the wire, healers are OOP and  the mob just punked you into the red. </DIV> <DIV>  </DIV> <DIV>This post was meant to be informative and/or somewhat a retaliation for just a smidgen of the BS that we pallies have had to endure since Black Tuesday from those smug Guards that beleive they are the end all be all of tanking. Take it at face value, spam it, do what you will....its my 2 cents. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS I really do hate Guardians that much....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As a level 60 Paladin, and one of the first on my server BEFORE it was easy to level (vitality...what's that?)....</P> <P>If you wanna flame someone for gear check my gear at here before you comment....</P> <P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=180840102" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=180840102</A></P> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>1) Wards- We have awesome wards. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>   a. When our wards aren't used up and knocked off of you, they will cast a heal for the remainder of the wards value.</FONT></DIV> <P>Yes we have wards, which are nice. At master I, my ward wards for 1020 damage. NEVER has a ward EVER healed a player for the remander of the ward value. WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING, I WANT SOME!</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>b. They mitigate dmg now, so stay longer and are an immeasurable defense when combined with shield bashes and kicks.</FONT></P> <P>Since when do wards mitigate damage? The meaning of mitigate means it helps reduce damage (IE: your armor mitigates 57% of damage so therefore you get hit for 43% of the max damage amount). Wards take damage that is ALREADY mitigated by the targets armor! Wards stay slightly longer now since they intercept damage mitigated by the targets armor first, but this only occurs if they are hit when the ward is up. Even with my awesome ward, I do not use it that much unless healing power in my group is low. I'll explain after commenting on the next comment below.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000> c. They generate hate for us!</FONT></P> <P>Heck, just about everything we do generates hate for us. The bottom line is wards, unbeknownst to almost every fighter class, generates CRAPY hate when compared to DPS and you normal taunts. The ward has a 3 second casting time and a 12 second recast. THAT IS FOREVER IN THE WORLD OF A TANK! I can get 4 or 5 taunts and attacks off in the same time it takes me to cast ward on someone. The only time I generally use ward period when tanking is when healage is low AND/OR all my other attacks are down. If I must resort to using heals and wards, I ALWAYS lose aggro. Heals also are pointless...at master I it only gives 600 to 800 HP but takes 3 seconds to cast....very interuptable.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>d. While safe behind our wards, we have time to throw much needed heals. Keeping us leaps and bounds ahead of other tanks in survivability.</FONT></P> <P>When a group starts relying on a paladin's direct heals (which suck) or their group heals (which are nice but have a limited range and chew up power), EVERYONE is in the wrong group. Pallies are really good at one thing, holding aggro now. We can often do zones that would require a healer without one (I actually almost got thru all of poet's palace in a group of 5 with no healer, I could have done it but we screwed up on the keeper of silence pull), but this is often too risky to be worth it.</P> <P> <FONT color=#ff0000>a. Amends - put it on your favorite DPSer and have them work for you! ( meh get adept 3, and tell em to not go crazy after this (*&(*&*&^**&ing patch )</FONT></P> <P>Amends is a tool which must be placed on the appropriate class depending on various situations. I have found that amends does not work with classes that have a hate transfer placed on you (brigands/swashs) or use hate increasing attacks. I generally place amends on the class least likely to be able to take a hit (warlock, wizard, or summoner) that DPS's. Depending on the situation, you must change the target of amends to allow better aggro control. Wizards are great against single target heroic mobs, warlocks are much better against group mobs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000> c. Get Splitpaw adventure pack, throw away your taunt over time, and use the Splitpaw taunt, all at once is better and sometimes, it will proc an extra taunt for the same power cost...just my own suggestion.</FONT></P> <P>Dude what are you smoking man! At high lvl mobs the resistability difference of an appII taunt versus and Adept III or Master I is HUGE. Also, at adept III, you have more hate gained for you at a consistent basis, and even overall with the 10% proc factored in, then you do from the splitpaw spell. Learn your class and do the numbers.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>b. Sigil of heroism, sure its a crappy version of Call to Arms pre-nerf Tuesday (I like to call it BLACK TUESDAY) but it can really make a bad situation go your way.</FONT></P> <P>Sigil of heroism is nothing like Call to arms or Call to glory lines....the way they were. Sigil of heroism is an AWESOME spell that is indepensible to paladins. Its on a short 2 minute reuse timer, so you should be using it ALL THE TIME! It also use VERY little power.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>a. Our buff lines aren't very well targeted to compensate for having such a wide range of stat issues. offensive stance should add some DPS haste along with STR/INT increases to actually have any impact on our DPS which was its intent, I am speculating.</FONT></P> <P>The difference between defensive stance and offensive stance is quite huge crush/slash/pierce wise. While you may not see a huge increase in the damage you inflict, YOU HIT THE MOBS MORE OFTEN!</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>c. Guardian buffs are group now, so guess what....OT city for you Guards. that right I said it. Have a Guardian in group to give YOU the AC/Mit buffs needed cuz your self heals are gonna be a lifesaver in those final moments in some raids when its down to the wire, healers are OOP and  the mob just punked you into the red.</FONT></P> <P>Guardians Mitigation buff is Self only, not group. They have nice group STA and DEF buff increases...however there are effective caps on how much DEF increased by groups will actually help tanks. Troubs are great at increasing DEF, and provide better group buffs then a guardian can in this case. The big advantage guardians have is that they can have +500 mitigation against all physical attacks (which is an increase in mitigation of like 10%) every now and then and can flat out intercept damage that would take more then 10% of their health. And if you have actually raided (from this post I am assuming you haven't much because the last comment is silly) healers SPAM heal the MT....when the raid's surival depends on the MT (which is being stunned the whole time) healing itself...the raiders NEVER SHOULD HAVE TRIED THE RAID IN THE FIRST PLACE. As a raid MT, your ONLY job is to hold aggro...not to dps...not to heal. You hold more aggro over the long run by ONLY taunting....and doing taunt attacks. You MUST save your power for the long haul...its a raid.</P> <P>I have tanked for several raid instances...my guild has found situations that paladins DO make great raid tanks. But the bottom line is, guardians have more mitigation damage tools then Paladins do...and you can setup MT resistance groups better with guardians then pallies (generally). The object of raiding is to win, it doesn't have crap to do about egos or tanking ability.</P> <P>Flayedskin Lvl 60 Paladin Najena</P> <P>First Lvl 50/60 Troll Paladin worldwide</P>

[Siphar]

<P>the wards do heal you when they puff for their remaining amount- </P> <P>NOt sure when this was patched in but they sure do work- I duelled a 59 cleric (as a 55 pally) for 20 minutes... no one won which was lame...</P> <P>So i logged in my ranger and shot the cleric down in 3 shots <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <DIV>Note- i re-rolled Ranger after LU13 and Pally nerf-fest and now would rather have a SK than Pally- more dps and soloability imho (Ranger more fun by far btw imo)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Siphar on <span class=date_text>12-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 AM</span>

[Daedr]

<DIV>I love when you guys break my post down one by one just to disagree and get most of you info wrong....[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]wits</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>1) Wards- We have awesome wards. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>  a. When our wards aren't used up and knocked off of you, they will cast a heal for the remainder of the wards value.</FONT></DIV> <P>Yes we have wards, which are nice. At master I, my ward wards for 1020 damage. <FONT color=#993399><FONT color=#6633ff>NEVER has a ward EVER healed a player for the remander of the ward value. WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING,</FONT> <FONT color=#6633ff>I WANT SOME!</FONT> (not smoking anything, they do, test it and see smart [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn])</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>b. They mitigate dmg now, so stay longer and are an immeasurable defense when combined with shield bashes and kicks.</FONT></P> <P>Since when do wards mitigate damage? The meaning of mitigate means it helps reduce damage (IE: your armor mitigates 57% of damage so therefore you get hit for 43% of the max damage amount). Wards take damage that is ALREADY mitigated by the targets armor! Wards stay slightly longer now since they intercept damage mitigated by the targets armor first, but this only occurs if they are hit when the ward is up. Even with my awesome ward, I do not use it that much unless healing power in my group is low. I'll explain after commenting on the next comment below. <FONT color=#cc00ff>Wards used to not take into account the mitigation of the player they were put on, they now do there for i said mitigate to take a shortcut. I am so sorry that you are too stupid to understand this. I will try my best to use small words and or ideas that are shallow enuff for you to comprehend.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000> c. They generate hate for us!</FONT></P> <P>Heck, just about everything we do generates hate for us. The bottom line is wards, unbeknownst to almost every fighter class, generates CRAPY hate when compared to DPS and you normal taunts. The ward has a 3 second casting time and a 12 second recast. THAT IS FOREVER IN THE WORLD OF A TANK! I can get 4 or 5 taunts and attacks off in the same time it takes me to cast ward on someone. The only time I generally use ward period when tanking is when healage is low AND/OR all my other attacks are down. If I must resort to using heals and wards, I ALWAYS lose aggro. Heals also are pointless...at master I it only gives 600 to 800 HP but takes 3 seconds to cast....very interuptable.<FONT color=#cc00ff> I pointed out that they generate hate because some people (altho few) did not know that wards generate hate. I never said to use it in place of taunts ...sheesh you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ers read alot into my post just so you can feel important by pointing out [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I never wrote...go back, play the class, check everything i have said here (not what you think i said) and then ask daddy if he can log you on so you can post.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>d. While safe behind our wards, we have time to throw much needed heals. Keeping us leaps and bounds ahead of other tanks in survivability.</FONT></P> <P>When a group starts relying on a paladin's direct heals (which suck) or their group heals (which are nice but have a limited range and chew up power), EVERYONE is in the wrong group. Pallies are really good at one thing, holding aggro now. We can often do zones that would require a healer without one (I actually almost got thru all of poet's palace in a group of 5 with no healer, I could have done it but we screwed up on the keeper of silence pull), but this is often too risky to be worth it. <FONT color=#cc00ff>I have done Poets, Cazel's with no healer, using wards, knockbacks and pally heals to stay alive. I have not written anything here, i do not personally do while playing. If you can't pull it off, don't blame me.</FONT></P> <P> <FONT color=#ff0000>a. Amends - put it on your favorite DPSer and have them work for you! ( meh get adept 3, and tell em to not go crazy after this (*&(*&*&^**&ing patch )</FONT></P> <P>Amends is a tool which must be placed on the appropriate class depending on various situations. I have found that amends does not work with classes that have a hate transfer placed on you (brigands/swashs) or use hate increasing attacks. I generally place amends on the class least likely to be able to take a hit (warlock, wizard, or summoner) that DPS's. Depending on the situation, you must change the target of amends to allow better aggro control. Wizards are great against single target heroic mobs, warlocks are much better against group mobs.<FONT color=#cc00ff> This is actually the only useful info you've posted. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>c. Get Splitpaw adventure pack, throw away your taunt over time, and use the Splitpaw taunt, all at once is better and sometimes, it will proc an extra taunt for the same power cost...just my own suggestion.</FONT></P> <P>Dude what are you smoking man! At high lvl mobs the resistability difference of an appII taunt versus and Adept III or Master I is HUGE. Also, at adept III, you have more hate gained for you at a consistent basis, and even overall with the 10% proc factored in, then you do from the splitpaw spell. Learn your class and do the numbers. <FONT color=#cc00ff>Goading Gesture lands just as much as our other taunts, and has a chance to proc an extra taunt. You do the math, may wanna get a calculator, and come back to me, the hate from the taunt over time in a long fight may be better....but in the short xp fights, I use goading, and with mobs that stun alot i use the taunt over time to keep my aggro while stunned. Now you go sit in the corner and think on it, then go reroll a pally, play it to 60 and come back and tell me what you think.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>b. Sigil of heroism, sure its a crappy version of Call to Arms pre-nerf Tuesday (I like to call it BLACK TUESDAY) but it can really make a bad situation go your way.</FONT></P> <P>Sigil of heroism is nothing like Call to arms or Call to glory lines....the way they were. Sigil of heroism is an AWESOME spell that is indepensible to paladins. Its on a short 2 minute reuse timer, so you should be using it ALL THE TIME! It also use VERY little power. <FONT color=#cc00ff>ARE YOUY [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING STUPID??!?! ITS THE SAME [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] AS CALL OF GLORY PRE NERF YOU DUMB [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>a. Our buff lines aren't very well targeted to compensate for having such a wide range of stat issues. offensive stance should add some DPS haste along with STR/INT increases to actually have any impact on our DPS which was its intent, I am speculating.</FONT></P> <P>The difference between defensive stance and offensive stance is quite huge crush/slash/pierce wise. While you may not see a huge increase in the damage you inflict, YOU HIT THE MOBS MORE OFTEN! <FONT color=#cc00ff>Can't prove it by parsing....then it doesn't happen....</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>c. Guardian buffs are group now, so guess what....OT city for you Guards. that right I said it. Have a Guardian in group to give YOU the AC/Mit buffs needed cuz your self heals are gonna be a lifesaver in those final moments in some raids when its down to the wire, healers are OOP and  the mob just punked you into the red.</FONT></P> <P>Guardians Mitigation buff is Self only, not group. They have nice group STA and DEF buff increases...however there are effective caps on how much DEF increased by groups will actually help tanks. Troubs are great at increasing DEF, and provide better group buffs then a guardian can in this case. The big advantage guardians have is that they can have +500 mitigation against all physical attacks (which is an increase in mitigation of like 10%) every now and then and can flat out intercept damage that would take more then 10% of their health. And if you have actually raided (from this post I am assuming you haven't much because the last comment is silly) healers SPAM heal the MT....when the raid's surival depends on the MT (which is being stunned the whole time) healing itself...the raiders NEVER SHOULD HAVE TRIED THE RAID IN THE FIRST PLACE. As a raid MT, your ONLY job is to hold aggro...not to dps...not to heal. You hold more aggro over the long run by ONLY taunting....and doing taunt attacks. You MUST save your power for the long haul...its a raid. <FONT color=#cc00ff>Raided plenty, and our healers do spam heal, but they spam heal EVERY tank class....and alot of times when its down to the wire and the healers are OOP, a 2k LoH and 1500 self heal can be just enuff to win. Now I know, its hard for you mentally challenged to get your head around this, but do try. I WAS STATING THAT PALADINS CAN RAID TANK, AND DO NOT ALWAYS HAVE TO BE OT. I may have been a little facetious in doing so, but that was the intended message, for you to break it down so literally just shows a lack of imagination and/or sense of humor. jack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. </FONT></P> <P>I have tanked for several raid instances...my guild has found situations that paladins DO make great raid tanks. But the bottom line is, guardians have more mitigation damage tools then Paladins do...and you can setup MT resistance groups better with guardians then pallies (generally). The object of raiding is to win, it doesn't have crap to do about egos or tanking ability <FONT color=#cc00ff>Actually it has alot to do with tanking ability. Our guild switches up tanks on almost every raid, we have few problems as long as the MT stays up, and on that account our paladins are on a higher win/lose ratio than our Guardians. And here, i'll let slip a little raid MT helpful hint, turn off auto attack to avoid nasty ripostes, do your dmg skills/spells (to help hold aggro if need be but i don't) and turn off auto. It will cut down on your dmg taken noticeably and keep the healers in power longer. </FONT></P> <P>. Flayedskin Lvl 60 Paladin Najena</P> <P>First Lvl 50/60 Troll Paladin worldwide</P><SPAN><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>2-23-2005</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:27 AM</SPAN> </SPAN><!-- /cache:cache --><IMG height=2 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=600 border=0><BR> <A href="http://www.lithium.com/bounce.asp?community.id=eq2" target=_blank><IMG height=18 alt="Powered By Lithium" src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/button_lithium_logo.gif" width=110 border=0><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT></A><BR><IMG height=1 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=600 border=0><BR> <IMG height=8 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/i/forum_images/spacer.gif" width=23><IMG height=27 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/i/forum_images/botl.gif" width=39><IMG height=27 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/forum_images/bot_bg.gif" width=1><IMG height=27 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/i/forum_images/botr.gif" width=40></DIV>

[Leawyn]

<span><blockquote><hr>Daedron wrote:<div></div>***SNIP LOTS OF PRETTY COLORS*** <div><p>. Flayedskin Lvl 60 Paladin Najena</p> <p>First Lvl 50/60 Troll Paladin worldwide</p><span><span class="date_text"><font color="#756b56">2-23-2005</font></span><span class="time_text">08:27 AM</span> </span><!-- /cache:cache --><img alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" border="0" height="2" width="600"> <a href="http://www.lithium.com/bounce.asp?community.id=eq2" target="_blank"><img alt="Powered By Lithium" src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/button_lithium_logo.gif" border="0" height="18" width="110"><font color="#c8c1b5"></font></a><img alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" border="0" height="1" width="600"> <div></div><img src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/i/forum_images/spacer.gif" height="8" width="23"><img src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/i/forum_images/botl.gif" height="27" width="39"><img src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/forum_images/bot_bg.gif" height="27" width="1"><img src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/i/forum_images/botr.gif" height="27" width="40"></div><hr></blockquote> All the pretty colors makes my eyes hurt. Whats the point of this thread? you wanted to whine and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and moan about pallies. Don't like it? no one is forcing you to be a pally. You think clerics do more dps? go play one. Just quit comin here and whining that your class sucks. Its not like someone put a gun to your head and forces you to play it! There's 23 other classes out there you can choose to play. So lets play nice like the good pallies we are!</span><div></div>

[H3llburn]

rather Ironic someone who is a necro trolling the boards to discuss a class he does not play and voice displeasure with those trying to better their own class, how about just keeping to the necro boards instead, maybe we pallies dont want to be good anymore.

[Leawyn]

Or maybe I play a pally too <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Traygar]

<DIV>Hate to say it, as I am a nearly fully fabled pally in a full time raiding guild, but if each toon is geared the same, a guardian will be a better MT.  This is not to say that pallies, or any other tank cant tank a raid mob.  It is just that they have a bunch of skills that work in their favor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- 2 Mitigation buffs (one self, one temp group).  We have none</DIV> <DIV>- Sta and Hps Buffs (Str is not a big deal as in any mt group you can easily max out str).  We have str and wis buff.</DIV> <DIV>- Guardian Sphere (Group buff to absorb or ward damage)</DIV> <DIV>- Shield of Stone (Absorbs 3 hits that would have done more than 10% of your total health)</DIV> <DIV>- Def stance gives to 2 of the 3 avoidance skills (parry, block, def) while crusaders only get def (This ones really bugs me and not sure if it is a bug or as intended.  Would like to know why in the hell this is as we lose around 5% avoid)</DIV> <DIV>- Another avoid buff (not sure if gr or self)</DIV> <DIV>- We have heals and wards but if in the MT group, which is preferred due to our nice miti and avoid buff and okay resist buff with crusade, we can use on mt as well as self.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We unfortunately do not have one skill that is self only that can not be leveraged to make a guard better.  Again this is not to say that we can not MT a raid and there are some nice pieces of armor that are crusader only (Anuk's Vile Cuirass - 600 mitigation) which would make a huge difference in your tanking.  It is just that as it stands now guards can withstand the heavy damage of very high end mobs better and their hate deficiency is easily mitigation by having a dirge or coercer in the group.  I would not want to jeopardize a full wipe on guild and friends due to an ego issue.  In my opinion we are amazing at being able to strip adds off the mt at will to help reduce the damage they are taking and to lead the dps.  My 2 cents.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Traygar</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 60 Paladin</DIV> <DIV>Everfrost Server</DIV>

[Majorminor]

<P>I would agree with the above.  At the moment I am the guilds MT for raids etc, this is because I am the highest level tank.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Do i like to tank? hell yes I do.</P> <P>Do I really give a rats bleep if a guard does it better? Nope,  If my Mit buff to the guard and some spot heals and minor dps in a raid, or group, helps get the job done, then I don't care.  I have just as much chance to roll on loot, weather I MT or Off tank, Or just show up and look pretty.  And the last one I sure can do good <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Rr]

Threads like this keep popping up, over and over and over again. And, like now, it results in a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and whine fest. What it always boils down to is this: Resistances (paladins bread and butter for raid tanking) can be changed and buffed far too easily to usually warrant putting a Paladin as MT for a raid. Mitigation is FAR more difficult to increase, unless your a guardian who has many SELF-BUFF only spells (which the OP was terribly wrong about, and he calls other people stupid when his mistakes are glaring) that buff is mitigation for a VAST amount for short periods of time, but which can mean the difference between wipe and success. It took my 54 levels to realize that my paladin would never really be the MT of a raid, or a good DPS'er after LU13, so I rolled up a dirge instead. If I'm going to be a buff-bot, I might as well be the best at it, and able to throw in some dps as well. Lope, 59 Dirge Rrin, 54 Paladin iconoclast.iplat.net <div></div>

[Rochir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Traygar wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hate to say it, as I am a nearly fully fabled pally in a full time raiding guild, but if each toon is geared the same, a guardian will be a better MT.  This is not to say that pallies, or any other tank cant tank a raid mob.  It is just that they have a bunch of skills that work in their favor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- 2 Mitigation buffs (one self, one temp group).  We have none</DIV> <DIV>- Sta and Hps Buffs (Str is not a big deal as in any mt group you can easily max out str).  We have str and wis buff.</DIV> <DIV>- Guardian Sphere (Group buff to absorb or ward damage)</DIV> <DIV>- Shield of Stone (Absorbs 3 hits that would have done more than 10% of your total health)</DIV> <DIV>- Def stance gives to 2 of the 3 avoidance skills (parry, block, def) while crusaders only get def (This ones really bugs me and not sure if it is a bug or as intended.  Would like to know why in the hell this is as we lose around 5% avoid)</DIV> <DIV>- Another avoid buff (not sure if gr or self)</DIV> <DIV>- We have heals and wards but if in the MT group, which is preferred due to our nice miti and avoid buff and okay resist buff with crusade, we can use on mt as well as self.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We unfortunately do not have one skill that is self only that can not be leveraged to make a guard better.  Again this is not to say that we can not MT a raid and there are some nice pieces of armor that are crusader only (Anuk's Vile Cuirass - 600 mitigation) which would make a huge difference in your tanking.  It is just that as it stands now guards can withstand the heavy damage of very high end mobs better and their hate deficiency is easily mitigation by having a dirge or coercer in the group.  I would not want to jeopardize a full wipe on guild and friends due to an ego issue.  In my opinion we are amazing at being able to strip adds off the mt at will to help reduce the damage they are taking and to lead the dps.  My 2 cents.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Traygar</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 60 Paladin</DIV> <DIV>Everfrost Server</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gift of Armament (Master I)

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daedron wrote:<BR> <DIV>I love when you guys break my post down one by one just to disagree and get most of you info wrong....[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]wits</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#993399>(not smoking anything, they do, test it and see smart [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn])</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>I am so sorry that you are too stupid to understand this. I will try my best to use small words and or ideas that are shallow enuff for you to comprehend.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff> then ask daddy if he can log you on so you can post.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>This is actually the only useful info you've posted. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Now you go sit in the corner and think on it, then go reroll a pally, play it to 60 and come back and tell me what you think.</FONT></P> <P> <FONT color=#cc00ff>ARE YOUY [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ING STUPID??!?! ITS THE SAME [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] AS CALL OF GLORY PRE NERF YOU DUMB [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>for you to break it down so literally just shows a lack of imagination and/or sense of humor. jack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. </FONT></P></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>seems like you need to take a pill man, stop flaming and it won't make you look so bad an perhaps people might take you seriously <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Will someone PLEASE show me how to post an SS? With my off stance at adept III im over 430 stre buffed.</P> <P>My standing hit points are 5500+ and my power is at 3200+. by the end of the week, though I will have some crazy legs, so I want to post the SS for you guys. Greaves of unholy might from Gates..hopefully they'll drop for me!</P> <P>My Offensive stance changes my autoattack damage by a modest amount, BTW. Even if it raises your dps by 20 or 30, thats still MORE damage, specially since you have a CA thats 2-hander usable only. Power procs are good, but really not that critical. For example, I took the 2.5% increase in hit points and the 2.5% increase in power. Didnt bother with power regen. I feel unless you're a mage class, power regen really wont be that useful. Thats my personal opinion. I almost always have a chanter/ truob in my grp, but its not required. I took a grp to exp at cyclops for almost 5 hours straight, chain pulling with nothing but drink and we have little to no down time. </P> <P>Your ward is your friend. Your t6 ward at adept III takes almost 300 more damage than your single target heal and it costs roughly the same, so I don't normally heal unless I really need it. The ward absorbs 900+ damage, which is about the same as the Guardian hit points advantage, and can be recast. Granted that higher standing hit points is preferable, but we have used Paladins to tank Terrorantula with the same effectiveness as Guardians.</P> <P>All in all, I think the Paladin class did well in the revamp. Yeah, amends nerf sucked and our CA recast timers could be shortened, but the Paladin is a VERY strong tank with some really nice utility. If I rez even ONE person, that could be the difference in a raid, specially if that person is a chanter who can re mez or a wizard/warlock that adds 50k DPS. I can grp heal, single heal, ward, share my AC, etc.</P> <P>In the end Guardians have better tanking buffs, but nothing thats insurmountable. </P> <P>Every class has its strengths and weakenesses. I firmly believe that Palys have alot more strengths. I know this is not a Paladin vs Guardian post..but I think compared to other tanks, the Paladin is the best choice for all around tanking. This must be taken into perspective when examining the class.</P> <P>I was worried about Paladin utility for quite a while...but my guild has killed every single raid mob in this game. We finally killed the Godking yesterday for the prismatics 2.0. </P> <P> I'd say in over 85% of raids the MT grp had a Paladin in it.</P>

[FlintAH]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzak wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Majorminor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crib92 wrote:<BR> <P>A good example of a Pally choice is the The Cobalt Tablet.</P> <P> </P> <P>Buffs str, sta, and agi</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's what I use, Love it, wouldn't be caught dead without it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah it is really nice.  I like the extra resists over the Ironwood bow.  Though I'm not sure how much +6 STA makes on HP.  I think the Ironwood is +6 more STA but has about 30 less HP so not sure if that balances out.  It also gives the same in STR and AGI but I'm not so worried about them.  The big one for me is STA.  I'm still running about 70 STA from the cap with full raid buffs any place I can pick up more is good.  Though I do check items that give STA upgrades vs HP to see if an older Item gives more total HP in the end.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>How did you equip an ironwood bow?

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

he is more than likely comparing it to the ironwood bow b/c it's a ranged weapon with nice stats that other toons can use and making a correlation that we are getting similar/better stats out of items that go in the ranged slot than other classes

[Daedr]

<div></div>Yes, Gothic, I did get a little bent out of shape, with that guy mainly because he came on posting things, and directly targeting me without having any real knowledge about what I posted. IE the wards healing for their remaining value...while also managing to miss the main intent of the thread which was to offer some insight into the class. Altho I did go off an a tangent with the guard bashing, and I did come off sounding as if I would not go on a raid unless I am MT (which isn't the case). The intent was to offer what I noticed as our good/bad points. The core of you posting after I did seized onto the guard bashing, (which yet again i will admit was my fault) and broke my post down to minute detail, and not really offering any insight on how/why these things are wrong. The cut and paste of what I wrote was in response to the git that didn't even know the extent of what his wards were capable of. Again, I will reiterate that they DO in fact heal for the remainder of thier value before they poof, and they DO generate aggro while being knocked off of you. I did not say that this was what I used it for, just that it was an added bonus of using them. I DID say that I used shield bash and kicks to stun the target while i threw a ward to help keep myself alive through some tough scrapes. And I did say that while warded it was a good time to throw heals as well. These are, of course, my own playstyle. Which may/may not be yours. Did I miss any of the good points? Did I miss some bad points, most likely. Some did post a few corrections, and a few helpful hints. But the majority came here to flame while waiting for servers to come back up. I may actually go and remove the guard bashing from the original post to alleviate the guard/pally debate so that my real intention will be seized upon instead. /pill taken

[Daedr]

<div></div><div><blockquote><p> <font color="#ff0033">Leawyn's Post :</font></p><p></p><hr><p>Daedron wrote:</p><div></div>***SNIP LOTS OF PRETTY COLORS***<div><p>. Flayedskin Lvl 60 Paladin Najena</p><p>First Lvl 50/60 Troll Paladin worldwide</p><span><span class="date_text"><font color="#756b56">2-23-2005</font></span><span class="time_text">08:27 AM</span> </span><!-- /cache:cache --><img border="0" height="2" alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width="600"> <a target="_blank" href="http://www.lithium.com/bounce.asp?community.id=eq2"><img border="0" height="18" alt="Powered By Lithium" src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/button_lithium_logo.gif" width="110"><font color="#c8c1b5"></font></a><img border="0" height="1" alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width="600"><div></div><img height="8" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/i/forum_images/spacer.gif" width="23"><img height="27" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/i/forum_images/botl.gif" width="39"><img height="27" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/forum_images/bot_bg.gif" width="1"><img height="27" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/i/forum_images/botr.gif" width="40"></div><hr></blockquote>All the pretty colors makes my eyes hurt. Whats the point of this thread? you wanted to whine and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and moan about pallies. Don't like it? no one is forcing you to be a pally. You think clerics do more dps? go play one. Just quit comin here and whining that your class sucks. Its not like someone put a gun to your head and forces you to play it! There's 23 other classes out there you can choose to play.So lets play nice like the good pallies we are!</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><font color="#ff0033">Have you even read the thread. I wasn't whining that we sucked, I was stating that we have some good and some bad points, and that if played well we can be viable raid tanks, and awesome xp group tanks. We also happen to be well suited to duoing. Read the [Removed for Content] thread before you post please....</font></div>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<div></div>you know i didn't notice the ward healed until you mentioned something about it then i cast it next time i logged on and saw the little green +0 fly above my head when it expired... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />