Things to Fix For Paladins as of 12/10/05

[EvilIguana9]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I figured that since the amends nerf is imminent it was about time to put together a list of the remaining issues we are having. 1) Make any single target spell work across a raid in the same fashion it works across a group.  This includes, but is not limited to, The Amends line, Wards, Avoidance buffs and Mitigation transfers.2) We get stunned too much.  Something needs to be done to help plate fighters with secondary effects on melee attacks.  Basically any stun, stifle, or root that is the result of a physical attack should be subject to our physical mitigation.  If a brawler can avoid the attack we should be able to mitigate it.  A straight conversion of mitigation % to combat effect mitigation % would work fine.  Spells would be unaffected because they check arcane resists.</p><p>3) We get interrupted a lot.<span>  </span>We need our spells to do our job.<span>  </span>Some extra concentration would be nice.<span>  </span>Throw a bonus to the concentration skill on the Blessing of the Penitent line.<span>  </span>For good measure throw another bonus on the defensive stance.</p><p>4) Our resurrection spell in very nice, but the range limit is horrid.<span>  </span>Besides putting us in potentially bad locations on raids, lag and general confusion can make it very difficult to find the person who needs to be ressed.<span>  </span>The 1 minute recast and huge power cost are sufficient penalties.<span>  </span>Please increase the range by at least a little.<span>  </span>And get rid of the requirement for us to remain in range until the person accepts. </p> <p>5) Stacking.  Amends should stack with every other hate transfer in existence.  Amends is the bandaid that covers our otherwise lackluster aggro abilities.  Therefore I see no reason why it should not work in unison with other hate transfers, just as everyone elses' taunts work with those transfers.  Also, if for some reason they don't stack, hate transfers should either overwrite or block each other, and reflect their status in that respect in the maintained spells bar.  </p> <p>-Added 12/11/05 </p> <p>6) Our line of 2hander combat arts is out of balance with the rest of our abilities.  It does less damage and is less efficient than the closest other CA, and lacks the small heal of that other CA.  Seeing as it requires a 2 handed weapon it should at LEAST be in line with out other abilities power efficiency wise. </p> <p>7) Divine Favor is apparently not working.  Fix it. </p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by EvilIguana966 on <span class="date_text">12-10-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:35 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by EvilIguana966 on <span class=date_text>12-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:39 PM</span>

[RyFord00]

<DIV>I don't agree with any of these reasons except number four.  I'll elaborate on two of your reasons because I don't feel like replying to the other three.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)  This is a ridiculous request.  The reason for the "group only" buffs is to devise a raid strategy group setup.  Making an exception to us, would mean making an exception to everyone and making all raids a LOT more easier because of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3)  Interupted too much?  You obvisouly have not learned how to replay your class since LU 16.  Here's an example;  you cannot just try to throw up a heal or ward because you will get interrupted, to counter this you need to stun/interrupt the mob before casting these types of spells.  Concentration bonus?  Concentration is not needed for the "Blessing of the Penitent" line...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4)  I do agree that our rez needs to be looked at.  And it's not because of the spell's power or range.  <STRONG>The recast is too long....</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another aspect that should be fixed before toning us down with this Amends business, is "Divine Favor". <STRONG> It does not work at all.</STRONG></DIV>

[Majorminor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RyFord00 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't agree with any of these reasons except number four.  I'll elaborate on two of your reasons because I don't feel like replying to the other three.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)  This is a ridiculous request.  The reason for the "group only" buffs is to devise a raid strategy group setup.  Making an exception to us, would mean making an exception to everyone and making all raids a LOT more easier because of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3)  Interupted too much?  You obvisouly have not learned how to replay your class since LU 16.  Here's an example;  you cannot just try to throw up a heal or ward because you will get interrupted, to counter this you need to stun/interrupt the mob before casting these types of spells.  Concentration bonus?  Concentration is not needed for the "Blessing of the Penitent" line...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4)  I do agree that our rez needs to be looked at.  And it's not because of the spell's power or range.  <STRONG>The recast is too long....</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another aspect that should be fixed before toning us down with this Amends business, is "Divine Favor". <STRONG> It does not work at all.</STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>couldn't agree more.</DIV> <DIV>Though maybe I could just a tad.</DIV> <DIV>4) I would like to see the range increased some.</DIV>

[EvilIguana9]

<span><blockquote><hr>RyFord00 wrote:<div></div> <div>I don't agree with any of these reasons except number four.  I'll elaborate on two of your reasons because I don't feel like replying to the other three.</div> <div> </div> <div>1)  This is a ridiculous request.  The reason for the "group only" buffs is to devise a raid strategy group setup.  Making an exception to us, would mean making an exception to everyone and making all raids a LOT more easier because of it. <font color="#6633ff">I see no logic in your reasoning.  Why then are heals allowed across the raid group?  If this suggestion makes the raidss easier then then mobs are out of balance and need to be retuned.  I personally see no reason why wrangling with artificial limitations should be key to success.  What makes the wizard in my group special so that I can ward him but not the main tank.  If the only reason is the group setup then the game is flawed.  Group buffs are understandable and easily workable in current form, though a /tgb wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.  There would be no<i> less</i> strategy than there is now, there would just be a <i>different</i> strategy.  The point of this change is to balance classes with each other, until I see guardian taunts only working at half capacity for no reason but the fact that theres no wizard in the MT group I'll be pushing for this.  </font> </div> <div> </div> <div>3)  Interupted too much?  You obvisouly have not learned how to replay your class since LU 16.  Here's an example;  you cannot just try to throw up a heal or ward because you will get interrupted, to counter this you need to stun/interrupt the mob before casting these types of spells.  Concentration bonus?  Concentration is not needed for the "Blessing of the Penitent" line... <font color="#6633ff">Obviously it is you who lacks playing experience.  I am perfectly aware of how stuns operate.  But there are limits.  What about encounters with more than 1 mob?  What about epics, which are not only unstunnable but hit so hard that it's nigh on impossible to cast through their attacks?  </font> </div> <div> </div> <div>4)  I do agree that our rez needs to be looked at.  And it's not because of the spell's power or range.  <strong>The recast is too long.... </strong><span><font color="#6633ff">Guess we disagree.  Personally I think it's powerful enough that it deserves a decent recast time.  I also don't think paladins should become res-bots by trade.</font></span> </div> <div> </div> <div>Another aspect that should be fixed before toning us down with this Amends business, is "Divine Favor". <strong> It does not work at all.</strong></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Anzak]

Wards cross raid yes.  Amends and Armament line no. <div></div>

[EvilIguana9]

<span><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:Wards cross raid yes.  Amends and Armament line no. <div></div><hr></blockquote>What is your reasoning for this?  My feeling is that if amends is a constant %age of hate siphon, then it has to be balanced around the best possible target for it.  If it is balanced for a target in the MT group, then it becomes overpowered in single group content because it can be placed on somone with enormous aggro generation.  If it is balanced for single groups then it would be too weak when placed on somone in the MT group of a raid.  </span><div></div>

[GidionSWE]

<P>yes amends should be castable on anyone in ure raid... honestly...if they did that...i WOULD be quite HAPPY with the class...</P> <P>its my nr 1 thing i wish theyd correct...</P> <P>but it doesnt matter that much though im feeling less and less interested in this game every day and dont think it matters what we say. I want vanguard to come out now hehe...</P>

[eyes007]

<P>I'm sorry but I will have to disagree with the OP, it just makes things far too easy, also thats what is called "unbalancing the raid" Why have certain classes in certain groups if they could do what they had in any group? And why would Paladins have the exception to this knowing there are a good many classes out there that will expect the same thing. This will end up making someone unbeatable, and raids far too easy. I agree with strategy, this is the only reason why some guilds suceed in raids where others don't. it takes alot of hard worjk to put together a workable raid, this will not only cheapen the result or the effort, and therefore make the game not worth playing. This is a dangerous request and almost worthy of deleting totally, I can understand your sentiments but it requires foresight to know how it will reflect in the future...I mean no disrespect when I say that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The fixes....well lets just say Sony get your A into G as i can pictures hordes of people doing the Galaxies and jumping ship sooner or later. </P> <DIV>Also forgot about Stuns, I'm not entirely sure how tricked out you are but I only get stunned by named and occasional heroics and I don't get interrupted much, if anything, I interrupt the mob more often than anyone else....not sure whether that is gear dependent, I can tell you my mitigation at lvl57 is higher than a Lvl60 zerker (on defensive) and Lvl60 SK (also on defensive or as far as SK's go being defensively inclined) by about 600points and also the highest Mitigated tank on raid other than the MT and MA (not by much). The one thing I can tell you is my Paladin, when it was respec'd was mainly Str oriented so maybe that helps, not sure.</DIV><p>Message Edited by eyes007 on <span class=date_text>12-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 AM</span>

[Centioch]

<DIV>Are u kidding? I am a 60 paladin. How can u get 600 more mit than anyone else when not in group, and always slightly more than mt? Please tell me.</DIV>

[eyes007]

<DIV>I have no idea to be honest, I just figured it was because they were primarily opffensive classes and with the combat changes we were meant to be on par with Guardians. Our main raid leader was curious too but I thought nothing of it, my health pool however was down by 500-900 I believe as I didn't go for stamina as my paladin build. I do have rings to cast so maybe thats why, but they wear vanadium too so I don't think so. In retrospect, it is unusual I guess but stuff me if I know what it is. Also, the zerker and SK were in my same group and I didn't have any group buffs they didn't...I'm not sure what you mean by "not in group", I did say it was when grouped with others..at least I think I did :smileysurprised:. And I said slightly less than the MA, not more. As for the MT, we would be a crappy Raid group if I had more miti than him <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bah just checked my previous post and I didn't say any of that, ah well I have clarified it...sorry for the confusion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by eyes007 on <span class=date_text>12-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:34 PM</span>

[EvilIguana9]

Some clarification.  The reason why I feel some effect mitigation is necessary is that compared with avoidance tanks we spend a lot of time stunned stifled and rooted.  If mitigation and avoidance are truly supposed to be different means of achieving the same end then it is only fair that mitigation have some impact on the intensity of secondary effects of melee attacks.  Spells are a different story entirely because they check arcane resists.  Hopefully this is making sense.  The other option would be to nerf brawlers so that they can be stunned and stifled by attacks that miss, and I don't think that would go over too well with them. Also, I added 2 more issues in the OP. <div></div>

[RyFord00]

<DIV>....?</DIV>

[dreiden]

I agree That our 2h skill is too weak. If im not in correct the description mentions it as being a high damage 2h only combat art. The damage on it is low compared to other combat arts and spells we have at the same level. I would say the damage needs to be about 50% higher to really be considered high damage. <div></div>

[Anzak]

The reason I say wards Cross group and amends and Pledge no is this. Wards are completely useless on raids unless you are in the MT group oh and in the case where you have an off tank in another group and you want to throw them so help guess what, no dice.  This is not over powering it is allowing us to do part of our job within a raid just like our heals are cross group so we can lend a hand with a heal from time to time.  Our ward is not all that much and on a raid mob won't even absorb a full hit so this is not overpowering. Amends and Pledge are part of balancing the groups in your raid to get the best buffs you can.  If you want the MT to have the extra 400 Mit from Pledge then you better put a pally in that group.  If you want the DPS to have amends on them to slow down their hate pally needs to be there.  Or if you want the pally to tank you might have to give up a buff class in the MT group so they can have amends on a DPS in the MT group.  This is about trade offs and works just fine. <div></div>

[Celedon Silvertree]

<span><blockquote><hr>EvilIguana966 wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I figured that since the amends nerf is imminent it was about time to put together a list of the remaining issues we are having. 1) Make any single target spell work across a raid in the same fashion it works across a group.  This includes, but is not limited to, The Amends line, Wards, Avoidance buffs and Mitigation transfers.</p> <p><b><i>Agree ony for Wards. If heals work on non-group members I don't see why wards souldn't too. The rest don't seem appropriate to cast outside the group.</i></b> </p> <p>2) We get stunned too much.  Something needs to be done to help plate fighters with secondary effects on melee attacks.  Basically any stun, stifle, or root that is the result of a physical attack should be subject to our physical mitigation.  If a brawler can avoid the attack we should be able to mitigate it.  A straight conversion of mitigation % to combat effect mitigation % would work fine.  Spells would be unaffected because they check arcane resists. </p> <p><i><b>Agree that it is unfair that avoidance applies to offset these issues yet mitigation does not. That aught to be considered by the dev team and at least commented on.</b></i> </p> <p>3) We get interrupted a lot.<span>  </span>We need our spells to do our job.<span>  </span>Some extra concentration would be nice.<span>  </span>Throw a bonus to the concentration skill on the Blessing of the Penitent line.<span>  </span>For good measure throw another bonus on the defensive stance. </p> <p><i><b>Clearly the interupt problem is in the game for a design reason so I won't hold my breath on this. This is a challange we are meant to deal with and one as paladins we have worse than other classes. We should strategise on how to deal with this not just ask for it to be fixed for us.</b></i> </p> <p>4) Our resurrection spell in very nice, but the range limit is horrid.<span>  </span>Besides putting us in potentially bad locations on raids, lag and general confusion can make it very difficult to find the person who needs to be ressed.<span>  </span>The 1 minute recast and huge power cost are sufficient penalties.<span>  </span>Please increase the range by at least a little.<span>  </span>And get rid of the requirement for us to remain in range until the person accepts. </p> <p><i><b>Agreed, from what I have seen this seems really bad. This needs some love. I can't see why this has been overlooked so far but I am sure the devs will fix this eventually.</b></i> </p> <p>5) Stacking.  Amends should stack with every other hate transfer in existence.  Amends is the bandaid that covers our otherwise lackluster aggro abilities.  Therefore I see no reason why it should not work in unison with other hate transfers, just as everyone elses' taunts work with those transfers.  Also, if for some reason they don't stack, hate transfers should either overwrite or block each other, and reflect their status in that respect in the maintained spells bar.  </p> <p><i><b>If the devs really think that Amends is that much better than other hate transfers then we aren't going to get this. They want agro management to be challanging, that much is clear.</b></i> </p> <p>-Added 12/11/05 </p> <p>6) Our line of 2hander combat arts is out of balance with the rest of our abilities.  It does less damage and is less efficient than the closest other CA, and lacks the small heal of that other CA.  Seeing as it requires a 2 handed weapon it should at LEAST be in line with out other abilities power efficiency wise. </p> <p><i><b>Agreed. The 2 hander CA line is kinda lame. Since they don't want to beef up our damage it seems why not add an additional ability to it, like a Spellbreaker that has a % to remove a buff from the mob. Give it something decent so the CA has a point.</b></i> </p> <p>7) Divine Favor is apparently not working.  Fix it. </p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by EvilIguana966 on <span class="date_text">12-10-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:35 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by EvilIguana966 on <span class="date_text">12-11-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:39 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span> <div></div>

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RyFord00 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't agree with any of these reasons except number four.  I'll elaborate on two of your reasons because I don't feel like replying to the other three.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)  This is a ridiculous request.  The reason for the "group only" buffs is to devise a raid strategy group setup.  Making an exception to us, would mean making an exception to everyone and making all raids a LOT more easier because of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3)  Interupted too much?  You obvisouly have not learned how to replay your class since LU 16.  Here's an example;  you cannot just try to throw up a heal or ward because you will get interrupted, to counter this you need to stun/interrupt the mob before casting these types of spells.  Concentration bonus?  Concentration is not needed for the "Blessing of the Penitent" line...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4)  I do agree that our rez needs to be looked at.  And it's not because of the spell's power or range.  <STRONG>The recast is too long....</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another aspect that should be fixed before toning us down with this Amends business, is "Divine Favor". <STRONG> It does not work at all.</STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You cant expect a mob to have to be stunned every time you want to cast a spell. There should be a large focus bonus added to PLD and SK Defensive stances.</DIV>

[Majorminor]

Sure I get interupted, But I just don't see it causeing huge amounts of trouble.  I get interupted, I try again, and get off what I need.  Guess maybe I am must lucky, but the interupts don't get to me as it sounds they do others.

[eyes007]

<P>Just highlighting Anzak, a Pally friend of mine got a Master 1 drop of Pledge of Armamernt )ex-friend now <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> jk), he was able to give 520 odd mitigation to anyone in his group, and Master 1 of Demonstration of Devotion is something like 1200 or more. Something like that is extremely useful, and therefore people have to strategise to use that effectively. How easy would it be to have all the best buff classes (which isnt possible in high end raids) in the group while the Pally in group 4 with Master 1 DoD and PoA is able to buff the MT even more, mobs wouldn't stand a chance.</P> <P>The other thing is you need just as many buffs in other groups than u do the MT group, at the end of the day, you need the whole Raid group to win, and if peeps are dying from all the AOEs and stuff going off from the mob then the MT group is gonna fail anyway.</P>

[XskullbusterX]

Juse and FYI  i have Demonstration of Devotion  it is  1040  and the master one of the Pledge of Armament gives about 400 still a great amount to add imho.  Just wanted to make this clear <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[eyes007]

Thanks for that, the DoD I was only guessing but I knew the Master took it into the 1k area but I fairly sure PoA read 526, it could be 426 though, and yes, nice spell indeed lol.