Amends on Tanks?

[BlueMustang]

<DIV>Couple of questions for you:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Has anyone tried putting amends on the OT of the group and have them spam taunts? Was it effective?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you had a group with 2 pallys, and the OT put amends on the DPS, and the MT put amends on the OT, would the hate move all the way up the chain?</DIV>

[Jonaroth]

Whenever I MT I always put my amends on the zerker or guardian or sk in my group, not the dps. Then I ask the guardian/zerker to taunt all they want and go full out.. the more they taunt the more it seems to get me agro <div></div>

[djhbeek]

yes this does work ... if you think about it, a tank taunting generates more hate than any other class (otherwise they wouldn't be able to tank).  especially usefully when you are fighting a mob that ... well ... i'll let you figure that part out.  <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<DIV>Single Mobs + Amends on the Monk/Bruiser= Agro holding Paladin</DIV>

[kdg68b]

That is really a great idea, never thought about doing that.  I was always so worried about putting it on the biggest DPS, that I overlooked the ability for another tank to generate agro for me.  Thanks for the tip guys, you can bet my SK and Monk friends are gonna be the target of my Amends from now on!

[Aquastone]

<P>I experimented putting Amends on a monk. I was the MT (a pally)  This was a good test because in my experience monks generate a lot of hate.  They also have an aggro buff that tends to "steal" mobs from me.  The monk was attacking the mob from behind.</P> <P>The results where rather hilarious.  The mob started spinning between myself and the mob.  That is,  the mob would turn towards the Monk, and then imediately turn back toward me.  This created a spinning effect on the Mob.  So in the end, Amends did work as the mob primarily target me.  And, you can have a little fun by making the mob go nuts.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Rochir]

<P>Lets face it, Moorgard overdid it with agro on brawlers, especially bruisers (Moorgard is a bruiser).   Their ability to draw agro is waaaay overpowered.    I refuse to put Amends on brawlers, especially when there are mages in my group.   If the brawler wants to continuously draw agro, he can tank the mob that he agros.   If he is not up to the challenge of tanking them, I just let him die.  Either he will learn his lesson and stop drawing agro or if he cant stop drawing agro because his brawler class is so overpowered, then he (or she) should find another tank class to play.   Brawlers are as bad now about drawing agro as berzerkers were before the combat changes.</P> <P>Bralwer agro needs to be fixed.   Putting amends on them is just putting a band aid on a broken class.</P>

[djhbeek]

if the brawler in your group is the highest agro, why would you hate steal a mage so that everyone in the group needs to generate less hate and therefore less dps, rather than stealing hate from the bruiser.  if you steal hate from the bruiser, you'll have more agro, the group will be able to do more dps (in part because the bruiser will still be alive).  regardless of your feelings about bruisers, i fear you are only hurting yourself if you amends the mage. <div></div>

[Anzak]

There seems to be a bug with Monks and agro though.  Even with amends on the Monk they can pull agro pretty easy often without trying.  If there is a monk with me I have to work twice as hard to keep agro even if amends is on them. <div></div>

[Jonaroth]

Yeah in a raid i never get the pleasure of having a Bruiser in my MT group, but on groups its sweet puttin amends on a bruiser and i tell him to go full out and even taunt all he wants, bruisers generate me so much hate I love em <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> unless they arnt in my group in a raid, then they just suck <div></div>

[MeridianR]

Did instance runs last night with a:  Monk, Bruiser, Brigand and Ranger (and priest) - was a fun time trying to hold aggro <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  - Amends on the Bruiser worked pretty well in PP, but that's after the Ranger left. <div></div>

[Rochir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> djhbeek wrote:<BR>if the brawler in your group is the highest agro, why would you hate steal a mage so that everyone in the group needs to generate less hate and therefore less dps, rather than stealing hate from the bruiser.  if you steal hate from the bruiser, you'll have more agro, the group will be able to do more dps (in part because the bruiser will still be alive).  regardless of your feelings about bruisers, i fear you are only hurting yourself if you amends the mage.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Most level 60 mages can out-agro brawlers as can level 60 assasins and swashies.   Some of the other scouts are questionable.  I dont use amends if I am not MT, especially in a raid.  I dont like dying <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:43 PM</span>

[SunT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rochir wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> djhbeek wrote:<BR>if the brawler in your group is the highest agro, why would you hate steal a mage so that everyone in the group needs to generate less hate and therefore less dps, rather than stealing hate from the bruiser.  if you steal hate from the bruiser, you'll have more agro, the group will be able to do more dps (in part because the bruiser will still be alive).  regardless of your feelings about bruisers, i fear you are only hurting yourself if you amends the mage.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Most level 60 mages can out-agro brawlers as can level 60 assasins and swashies.   Some of the other scouts are questionable.  <STRONG>I dont use amends if I am not MT, especially in a raid.</STRONG>  I dont like dying <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <P>Message Edited by Rochir on <SPAN class=date_text>12-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:43 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You should.</P> <P>You should have it on the Ranger or Warlock or whatever aggro magnet is in your group.  They can then increase their output since you are draining thier hate.</P> <P> </P>

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Rochir wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> djhbeek wrote:if the brawler in your group is the highest agro, why would you hate steal a mage so that everyone in the group needs to generate less hate and therefore less dps, rather than stealing hate from the bruiser.  if you steal hate from the bruiser, you'll have more agro, the group will be able to do more dps (in part because the bruiser will still be alive).  regardless of your feelings about bruisers, i fear you are only hurting yourself if you amends the mage. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Most level 60 mages can out-agro brawlers as can level 60 assasins and swashies.   Some of the other scouts are questionable.  <strong>I dont use amends if I am not MT, especially in a raid.</strong>  I dont like dying <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">12-08-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:43 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>You should.</p> <p>You should have it on the Ranger or Warlock or whatever aggro magnet is in your group.  They can then increase their output since you are draining thier hate.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Well not amends, unless you plan to AF someone and go afk Atonement on a mage (not a scout they have their own deagro skills) is good though</span><div></div>

[SunT]

<P>Atone is a good idea, I hadn't thought of using a lesser version of the spell.</P> <P>In any event, you can lower thier Hate and in turn have to lose some of your DPS so you don't get aggro, Or you can lose both of your DPS while you rez them.</P> <P> </P>

[Centioch]

<DIV>Amends is good on anyone. Put amends one a scout/mage or tank who taunts. Doesn't matter which one. No one else in the group will get aggro from you if you just taunt regular. If you still lose aggro from someone, remember to upgrade your taunts to adept3 master1 - as the scouts/mages in your group might have that on their dmg spells. Because Amends is so fast to throw, you can easily switch from warlock/swash, to wiz/assasin for example depending on if the encounter is group or solo. However, using amends on a zerker is a good middle way to go, as they have good aoe aggro as well, and generate aggro from fighting, so their power wont be wasted just taunting to give aggro to a paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact is, Amends is not a 100% necessary spell to keep aggro. It is merely one of our spells to *help* keep aggro, as you often have to be on look-out for adds and grab them with a ready taunt. So of course, always use it, but don't think you can't keep aggro without it, cause you can. Another thing is the people who think they *can steal aggro* from you just because it happens once in a while. Thing is if I WANT to keep aggro on a certain mob at all times, it is piece of cake. However, I don't try to do that at all times. Whenever I'm in a *new* group I see how little I can taunt and still keep aggro, to find the balance, or the point of most effecieny. Also, I generally WANT a taunt free in case of adds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No one can convince me anyone is better of keeping aggro than a paladin. If you think so you are either dumb, misinformed or lying. In all humbleness, lvl 60 paladin. =P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This does not mean that other fighter classes can't keep aggro as well though, I'm not saying anything bad about anyone else. Walk in peace.</DIV>

[Rochir]

The last time I put amends on a mage in a raid where I was not the MT, I drew the agro of the raid mob twice and died twice.    No thanks.   

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:The last time I put amends on a mage in a raid where I was not the MT, I drew the agro of the raid mob twice and died twice.    No thanks.    <div></div><hr></blockquote>i use amends all the time in raids.  if i am going all out from the beginning and the mage is too ... yah i'll draw agro, so i don't do that.  amends in raids is about communicating with the dps and playing smart ... i LOVE that part of the spell.  with amends on the mage can do more DPS, if he does so much damage that he gets you killed, then he's just playing stupid, because he'll be gimped for the rest of the fight.  ... also try healing and/or debuffing early on in a fight so that your hate isn't so high.  the mage is gonna out dps you anyways, and our heals dont seem to generate much agro ...</span><div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Centioch wrote:<div>Amends is good on anyone. Put amends one a scout/mage or tank who taunts. Doesn't matter which one. No one else in the group will get aggro from you if you just taunt regular. If you still lose aggro from someone, remember to upgrade your taunts to adept3 master1 - as the scouts/mages in your group might have that on their dmg spells. Because Amends is so fast to throw, you can easily switch from warlock/swash, to wiz/assasin for example depending on if the encounter is group or solo. However, using amends on a zerker is a good middle way to go, as they have good aoe aggro as well, and generate aggro from fighting, so their power wont be wasted just taunting to give aggro to a paladin.</div> <div> </div> <div>Fact is, Amends is not a 100% necessary spell to keep aggro. It is merely one of our spells to *help* keep aggro, as you often have to be on look-out for adds and grab them with a ready taunt. So of course, always use it, but don't think you can't keep aggro without it, cause you can. Another thing is the people who think they *can steal aggro* from you just because it happens once in a while. Thing is if I WANT to keep aggro on a certain mob at all times, it is piece of cake. However, I don't try to do that at all times. Whenever I'm in a *new* group I see how little I can taunt and still keep aggro, to find the balance, or the point of most effecieny. Also, I generally WANT a taunt free in case of adds.</div> <div> </div> <div>No one can convince me anyone is better of keeping aggro than a paladin. If you think so you are either dumb, misinformed or lying. In all humbleness, lvl 60 paladin. =P</div> <div> </div> <div>This does not mean that other fighter classes can't keep aggro as well though, I'm not saying anything bad about anyone else. Walk in peace.</div><hr></blockquote>In certain groups, if a class wants to take aggro from us, they can....no matter how much we taunt.  Group with a Ranger and Brigand....and tell both to go all out.  You WILL lose aggro to the one you don't have amends on, if they just go all out and don't throttle some.  Now granted the guildies I group with know enough to throttle, but from doing tests with them, it is near impossible to hold aggro if they both go balls out. </span><span> So save us the "you are either dumb, misinformed or lying" bs, and know that Amends while pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good, is not the end all be all hate generator some classes seem to think it is. BTW - All of my taunts / hate generation spells are Adept 3 or Master 1...so that is not an issue. </span><div></div>

[Boli32]

<div></div><p>The trick to using any of the amends line is not down to how powerful the spell is, whom you cast it on or even how many taunts they use.  90% of the time it is down to the person it is cast on... and the whole group understanding this fact.A ranger with amends on is useless to the group as a whole if he spent the entire fight on autoattack or nipped out for a cup of tea. He has to know what it means to have amends on him.Normally in group situations where there is more than one large agro source I normally call out: "OK, Who wants the amends/Redemption/Atonement Prize"? if I'm in a group which understands this spell; the DPSers discuss it amongst themselves swapping spell levels of combat arts and power regen facts (my turn for a cup of tea). when they have finished Amends goes on ProPlayer Y and N00b2205 is given a quick lesson on reigning their DPS in and when to go all out.This is especially true if you choose a tank class over a standard DPS class; they have to KNOW what the spell does and what exactly they need to do in order for the group to function successfully. Most of the time I never choose a tank as my amends target unless they are Berserkers or a Brawler Class as they will give significant hate without burning through their own power in the form of additional taunts. If the Off Tank is spending his power taunting then he spends less time keeping an eye out for ADDS, doing his own small portion of DPS themselves and generally looking after the group.The only time I choose a tank class over a DPS class is when there are multiple targets for hate in the group. An offtank throwing his taunts (especially is AoE taunts) is a surefire way of keeping the group under control.Of course sometimes you need to swap amends around a lot in a group if this happens make a macro which tells the group who has amends.. in combat you generally don’t have time to chat.for example:/useability amends;/g %t Has amends adjust your hate accordingly.Amends (or atonement as I have) can be VERY effective on a secondary tank but can be inefficient and is only really useful if everyone knows what they are doing.Group Agro Control is a GROUP effort.. not just the tanks. Amends is the epitomy of this.</p>

[Porky_uk]

<P>Nice idea</P> <P>Especially seeing is the Pally is a thinking players character.</P> <P>However I put my Amends on a swashbuckler.  they have pretty good armor, so can get close, and even when they are not burning mana, they generate alot of hate with highspeed dualwield weapons.  Additional attack spells rock <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Even with amends on, and master taunts/adept 3 backups, I still have to be on the ball to keep aggro from a swashy.</P> <P> </P> <P>Gorbash<BR>Blind Guardians<BR>Everfrost</P>

[djhbeek]

yep ... i have a macro for sigil, because when you think about it, the whole group needs to play fundamentally differently for 15 seconds, so they need to know when it is cast. <div></div>

[Anzak]

Who ever thinks Guards can not hold agro is full of it.  I had Amends on a warlock going all out with AOEs I was taunting as much as I could and the Guard still held agro.  I think I actually popped Sigil at one point to deal with adds and he still held agro on the main mob and I was in his group.  Yeah my mistake to pop sigil there but it didn't seem to be a bad thing over all.  So yeah if you have a guard in your group and put amends on them and tell them to go to town you are going to have agro locked pretty well. <div></div>

[Centioch]

<DIV><BR><SPAN>  *****              So save us the "you are either dumb, misinformed or lying" bs, and know that Amends while pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good, is not the end all  be all hate generator some classes seem to think it is.    ******</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Well I am not lying so you must be using your spells inefficiently. Try to experiment a little more, ull learn to keep aggro eventually.</SPAN></DIV>

[Caetrel]

This works great.  It is especially useful as you would have another tank in your group anyway while MTing a raid.  So you don't waste a slot putting a dps class in your group, nor lessen their dps by taking them out of their group. The tank needs to be on the ball though, taunting as much as you and making sure to use his encounter taunt and any other AOE hate generation at their disposal so that they help you maintain group aggro better.  A slacker will lose you aggro. All in all, IMO this will not give you the same amount of hate as say putting it on a scout or high dps mage.   In a group you are better off putting it on a dps class.  In raids, it's money. I've only done this with a Guardian.  I'm sure brawlers would work very well too as has been said. <div></div>

[Monfar]

<blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:The last time I put amends on a mage in a raid where I was not the MT, I drew the agro of the raid mob twice and died twice.    No thanks.    <hr></blockquote>Better me then the mage , I'm there to die protecting my allies and the 2 sec I'm out won't hurt as much as loosing some needed dps imo.

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:The last time I put amends on a mage in a raid where I was not the MT, I drew the agro of the raid mob twice and died twice. No thanks. <hr></blockquote> Better you/us than a real damage-dealing class that would slow the progress of the raid. It should also go without saying that when you're grabbing hate to allow a DPS class to be more effective, you need to carefully weigh your damage output.