Paladins Are Not Real Tanks

[GodlyLuther]

<DIV>OK so I started my character Nov. 12 of last year and have since been working my way to the top and Only now after all ive done i get the biggest insult ever from a guildmate.</DIV> <DIV>About to kill Perdition in Maj Dul and 2 tanks in raid of 9 people. Me 59 pally and other guildy 59 zerker.</DIV> <DIV>I have 800 points higher mitigation and mostly all adept 3 or better, Higher HP and had actually just tanked a x2 63 named in a guild raid zone successfully with an average group level of 54.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SO i get there and im told to hang back and help heal because "your not a real tank"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is something wrong with this? I think so. Where does a comment like this come from? Is it the way i play my character or is it the class? Sure enough guess what im told, im not a guardian or a zerker so im not a tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what makes a tank then and where are my weaknesses in my class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation</DIV> <DIV>Avoidance</DIV> <DIV>Hold Hate</DIV> <DIV>Health</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These seem to be the 4 most important things i can come up with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got the mitigation. 3306 solo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Avoidance? Only got 27%..... guardians and zerkers seem to be right at 40-44%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hold aggro--weak taunts and weak siphon--doesnt happen so easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Health? 5200 self buffed...dont have any personal stamina buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was looking so forward to the combat revamp to even things out but they missed again and made it truely worse. We get yet another heal after months of being thrown in with priests and mages. I am not a priest and I am not a mage.</DIV> <DIV>Then push us farther into it by making our ranged Priest Mage Crusader.</DIV> <DIV>I would like to the stats/usefullness of a 2 hand weapon in that slot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So is there anyway to fix this? I find these things useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crusade- 36 wis and str group AE--worthless except a little bit of power</DIV> <DIV>Divine Favor- worthless</DIV> <DIV>Prayer of consectration-worthless</DIV> <DIV>sigil of heroism-flawed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i came up with this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5>3 things that will balance this class = really simple</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Changes these spells to this</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Crusade = Single Concentration self buff that increases Str, Wis, and Sta by 50 at adept 3. Increase Avoidance by 15% at adept 3</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Amends = Single Concentration Group AE that transfers 40% of hate from each group member to the Pally until cancelled. And make sigil of heroism single target Friend/Raid member hate transfer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Prayer of Consecration = Just get rid of this as a heal. Make it a tank utility like anchor ourselves to one spot or something. Im tired of being called on to heal its not my part.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I could live with everything else, even using a cobalt tablet instead of bow. I spent way too much time and plat getting cobalt and vanadiums nad pearls to upgrade everything and be the best my character can be to be just brushed aside and insulted again and again.</FONT></DIV>

[djhbeek]

well ... i'll go thru and comment on some of your arguments later, but just because one of your guildies (and it seems yourself) don't think paladins are real tanks, doesn't mean that we aren't.  i hear that a fair amount, and i think its more a matter of perception than reality.  is the class perfect?  no.  but it's not as bad as you make it out to be. <div></div>

[GodlyLuther]

<P>Its not that I dont think we arent tanks, its just the insult given and its an ongoing insult. </P> <P>If i didnt think we were i would have dropped this game ages ago but i still have fun with my character.</P> <P>Theres just not much we can be. We can heal but not a lot. We can rez but not a lot. We can do damage but not a lot.</P> <P>I am a fighter that wears plate armor thus i should be equal to other fighters that wear plate armor at least in defense mode and at this point im just not. Its not major flaws just a few things that can make a better balance and it kills me that other people refuse to see it as that and call me worthless after everything ive done.</P> <DIV>this is what i ask for</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 tank ability</DIV> <DIV>equal avoidance</DIV> <DIV>equal mitigation</DIV> <DIV>equal aggro holding</DIV>

[eyes007]

<P>I wholeheartedly agree with you about that numbskull who said we aren't real tanks, thats BS and really, I kind of expect that from people who barely know their own class! There are a few points I have to stress about our uses:</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Theres just not much we can be. We can heal but not a lot. We can rez but not a lot. We can do damage but not a lot.</P> <HR> <P>There is actual worth in the statement you mentioned right there:</P> <P>We can heal - we may not have strong heals but the whole basis of a Paladin is being the last minute saver, our Lay Hands had it's timer reduced to 15mins and while that's not effective in normal fights, in raids its a godsend, and we are able to assist through the tank to not only hit the mob with some reasonably good attacks (as opposed to other healers) but heal the tank as well, how many classes can say that?</P> <P>We can rez - Okay our timer was lengthened to 60secs, a huge cut into our incombat rez ability, but we got a bonus, incombat full health rez! Only necros or is it Inquisitors I believe have that ability incombat, either way, the Pally Rez has saved many groups from total wipe once the Main Tank has been revived.</P> <P>We can do damage - Ok granted, our one on one target damage is significantly reduced but by god, look at our AOE's, they absolutely rock, particularly the Level 55 one (forget what it's called). Raid adds are the perfect victim for this attack as total Damage Given can be measured at 10k, not to mention the other three we have which has a nice damage attack (except Doom Judgement which is okish)</P> <P>My point being, why would you want the main job of holding agro of the main raid mob? That is so godamn boring! Our Guard is so miserable cos that's his only real job, being a raid tank. Hell, when it comes to normal grouping, they know there are better substitutes mainly cos they are better suited to long drawn out fights...</P> <P>The final ponit which has to be taken with a grain of salt is our worth as a raid tank. We were never meant to be a Main Raid Tank and it's fair to say that short of alternatives, we should be the last rersort. The self buffs are that much better on other tanks and we are really a sacrificial class, better off giving buffs to others than ourselves. There are alot of people that need to get used to that, and the problem is that everyone sees that has been a sucky class, personally I like benig a sacrificial class, we aren't truly roleplaying a Paladin and we shouldn't have chosen the class if we wanted to be the Meatshield. The great thing is, in a normal group, no tank will ever hold agro like us anymore, we don't even have to try, with Amends at Adept3 41%, no one is gonna ever gonna drag agro from you provided your group is balanced <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Lairdragna]

I'm 52, our guild's main tank is a 60 zerker.  Guess who he ALWAYS wants in his group?  I throw amends on the main healer working with the main tank, throw grant of armament on the main tank.  Fight starts when the reactives land on him and my ward follows.  The rest of the fight I am on him like glue, throwing wards, occassional heals, stuns and interrupts and aoes.  if he gets low and the healer is low on power I lay on hands.  If he goes down I throw off an aoe taunt, engage mob and try to get my rez off if a healer can't.  Needless to say, his job is infinitely easier with me as his wingman.<div></div>

[GodlyLuther]

<P>Maybe this was vague so just let me clarify</P> <P>the topic is Paladins are not real Tanks because someone insulted me by saying that.</P> <P>I know my character extremely well and this was uncalled for. I know where i end up in raids and i know all my spells</P> <P>The main tank for our guild is a 60 guardian...and thats the only 60 guardian we have out of 199 members atm and he plays at totally different times than a lot of us. We do have tons of paladins including myself but are laughed at as tanks for a few simple things no mater how good our spells and gear is.</P> <P>I am not discussing class defining abilities, just basics that should be about equal for all heavy armor tank types.</P> <P>My avoidance is too low (27% compared to 40-44%), Hate retention is too low despite amends (redemption was 35% before revamp not much improvement), and i dont have quite what i should have for Health (crusade had stamina before revamp)</P>

[H3llburn]

<P>We got a huge boost out of LU 16, yet unfortunatly do to the inequities previous to that, there is a distinction in alot of people eyes we are of little value. </P> <P>What remains is where are we out of what was the intended left after those fixs? </P> <P>Im still not sure if we have the highest power pool , I doubt our heals and ward altho easier to cast are of value versus anyting outside of group mobs , our dps barely out does a troubador, and that Res Just plain Stinks with the range limiter, and our undead spells are a joke</P> <P> We have come along way, but we are not there yet, more can be done for us to be viewed as valued alot if it is tweaking, and we should keep pushing to get those tweaks.</P>

[Lairdragna]

Why is your avoidance so low?  If you are main tanking I would imagine you would be equipping a shield.  Have an agility hex doll and an agility buff ring and I routinely have mine around 44% without anybody elses buffs.<div></div>

[Ilanidr]

<P>Who ever says a Paladin isnt a real tank is really just...stupid.  My paladin tanks anything I want it to.  I also know a lot of players who CHOOSE the paladin tank over a guardian.  Given the style of tanking is different since we cant taunt with every single move, so we generate agro in different ways.</P> <P>We are equal in my opinion, it is a differnt class, so it is a different playstyle. Even if we are both (Paladin/Guardian) fighters.</P>

[tooralo]

What's wrong with the paly as MT?  I have a paly alt at 40, and I've noticed no problems.  I can hold aggro and tank against anything non-orange... And seriously, a GUARDIAN told you palys aren't good MT's?  Last I checked, Guards were still trying to remove the n3rf-bat from a delicate part of their anatomy. <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>His avoidance is low because he most likely had his offensive stance on.</P> <P>As for Paladins not being an MT thats pure blasphemy. If I were you I'd look for a new guild.</P>

[Bannor The Bloodguard]

<P>I get this all the time....</P> <P>It is definately a perception problem rather than a class problem.</P> <P>You get a few ppl bashing the Paladin class, and a few more who jump on the bandwagon (Even have pally's in the Guild who agree and say that we are a rubbish class (Altho this is down to their level of maturity and the need to agree with the masses)).</P> <P> </P> <P>Needless to say, on some servers we are not rated as a class - a common misconception that all we can do is argue against. I even get other tank classes trying to taunt off me, and healers don't bother to switch target at times as a "proper" tank will soon get the aggro back !</P> <P>On the plus side - We can hold aggro (With the right lvl spell and amends focus) better than ALL other tank classes, so I now here comments from MT's like "There was no way I could get the aggro back off him" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Lairdragna]

Well if you are a pally and main tank, throw your defensive stance on, grab a shield and a good one hander and get to work...  I bet you that your avoidance will be over 40% as well.<div></div>

[KBern]

<P>Basically that comment comes from ignorance....simple as that. </P> <P>The lvl 60 paladin in my guild tanks great.  I also read from other tanks the reverse complaints about paladins.</P> <P>They wish they had our agro control.  Amends alone can make the paladin keep agro easily if he puts it on the correct group member.</P> <P>When he puts amends on my necro, I go balls to the wall casting and he just holds agro better at that point.  I have never pulled mobs from him.</P> <p>Message Edited by KBern on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:08 AM</span>

[djhbeek]

<span>just some more comments.  i already talked about this being more perception than reality.  in raids, i can now pull an add off the MT without a problem (used to be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near impossible).<blockquote><hr>GodlyLuther wrote: <div> </div> <div>Crusade- 36 wis and str group AE--worthless except a little bit of power <blockquote>this is about 10% of the cap in 2 stats.  it's not a great buff, but i don't think it's worthless.  for a group buff, i don't know that we can expect that much more from it. </blockquote> </div> <div>Divine Favor- worthless <blockquote>agree, certainly seems to be worthless. </blockquote> </div> <div>Prayer of consectration-worthless <blockquote>you can actually use this to help out healing through a raid AE.  i've been moved into a DPS group before just to keep them up.  now that most raid AEs are pretty much unavoidable, this helps out. </blockquote> </div> <div>sigil of heroism-flawed <blockquote>if you're refering to the bug, it's been fixed.  i like this spell alot now. </blockquote> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>the one thing that i would say is that there is a mit/resists disparity.  we are supposed to be better tanks in some situations because of our resists, but it's easy to max resists, so you are better off maxing the resists on a warrior than using a pally in almost all cases.  it would be nice if SOE came up with an encounter that we can tank better than any other tank.  i was tanking a pure divine caster last night, and even with my divine maxed, he was still hitting for 3.5k not to mention 2-2.5k crushing about twice as often.  it doesn't take a math expert to figure out that i would be willing to loose some mit on the 3.5k divine hit in order to gain mit against the 4-5k crushing damage i was taking.  and that's against a mob that was nuking entirely with priest spells (Smite/Radiant Strike).</span><div></div>

[Allisa]

<DIV>Ok, I usually don't post alot, but I have to add my 2coppers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am currently a level 55 Paladin. I am the MT for my guild period. We have a 56 Bezerker and he goes down fast when he tanks. I am currently equipped with full cobalt, +12 agi doll, +13 Sta doll, all most all Vanadium jewlery....haven't gotten a fabled item yet, but we are raiding a couple times a week now, so I am hopefull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In defensive stance my health is like 4580 ish and my mitigation is like 3900 ish and my avoidance is about 42.8%ish. With most of my spells at adept3 and using amends on a 56 Wizard I can say I almost never loose agro now and I tank better than almost any other tank I have seen. I have a best friend in RL who was our guild MT. He is a guardian, because he hasn't played alot over the past couple months I was forced to stop being the Main assist and start being the MT. Luckily, LU 13 came out and I was all set! All I can say is Paladins have ALL the tools neccessary to be the best MT, especially fighting anything that has alot AoE's (wisdom of over 200 kinda helps with resists). I have tanked Epic mobs and not had problems at all. I wouldn't trade my Paladin for a Guardian at all. I bet if you asked my guildmates they would tell you the same thing. Right after LU 13 came out I really had to show a few people that I could be MT, because honestly before then, I would never had insisted being one for raid mobs. However, now with my self wards and agro tools I AM the best MT....period. In general exp groups doing no epics, Paladins are so versitle I save my group's behind several times a night with my group heal (master 2) it's quite an effective agro tool, I might add). Even Epic raid mobs are no longer a problem, I tank as good or better than any warrior class I have seen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*I would still like a little higher mitigation like guardians get, but hey I have plenty and they can't heal or ward themselves,lol.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Allisa on <SPAN class=date_text>11-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:28 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Allisa on <span class=date_text>11-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:32 AM</span>

[thial]

who ever says a paly can not tank needs to /exit and play diablo because they dont know what they are talking about...imo and plenty of outhers on my server a paly is the best group tank as for raids it depends on mobs....from  what i can tell all plate armor tanks can handle physical damg justt the same with proper use of the skills they are giving. iv seen guardian loos agro just as much as a pally which is'nt often for me because i know how to use my class ill admit though zerkers are the best among plate armor tanks at keeping agro due to their bezker DPS...when it comes to raids the best tank for the job depends on the damg of the raid mob if its a physical damg mob bairly any elmental damg than a munk/bruzer(sometimesthis class needs more mitigation the avo is great but they need to sacrifice some dps for mitigation imo) would do the job best, magic/divine=pally, psn/dieses shadowknight, heat/cold=guard/zerk....so a paly not being a tank is pure bs i love my class and will never chang it as my main class well thats all i have to say <span><blockquote><hr></blockquote></span><span></span><span></span><div></div>

[SelfRighteo]

<P>I do my best to stay away from posting on these forums, but this one truly [Removed for Content] me off.</P> <P>I'm a 60 paladin of Rockeaters on Oasis, for the last several weeks, I've been the MT for the guild. Any aggro problems you've had are your own shortcomings, paladin aggro is almost unmatchable. Raid buffed my hp stays about 10k, mitigation 4.5k-5k, and avoidance is in the 50%'s. Granted a guardian is able to get his stats slightly higher, there is not a mob in the game I can't and don't tank. Some of you are in similar situations, and seen your stats at similar levels in raids, some haven't yet, but are working on it. What upsets is me is the people who come on here and post pathetic stats, and claim to have horrible aggro abilities. Sure a guardian is the best choice, but the difference isn't THAT big. I assure you, we are tanks, and extremely capable at that.</P>

[Anzak]

<span><blockquote><hr>SelfRighteous wrote:<div></div> <p>I do my best to stay away from posting on these forums, but this one truly [Removed for Content] me off.</p> <p>I'm a 60 paladin of Rockeaters on Oasis, for the last several weeks, I've been the MT for the guild. Any aggro problems you've had are your own shortcomings, paladin aggro is almost unmatchable. Raid buffed my hp stays about 10k, mitigation 4.5k-5k, and avoidance is in the 50%'s. Granted a guardian is able to get his stats slightly higher, there is not a mob in the game I can't and don't tank. Some of you are in similar situations, and seen your stats at similar levels in raids, some haven't yet, but are working on it. What upsets is me is the people who come on here and post pathetic stats, and claim to have horrible aggro abilities. Sure a guardian is the best choice, but the difference isn't THAT big. I assure you, we are tanks, and extremely capable at that.</p><hr></blockquote> 10K HP and 4.5K-5K mit *drools* what gear are you in. Raid buffing in full cobalt I'm pushing just under 7K at level 56 I think if I was MT could break 7K but not by much.  Mit is hovering around 3800.  Avoidance is around 40% but I will admit I'm not working much on avoidance right now.</span><div></div>

[Rochir]

I suppose there are a lot of things I could say.   Most of them have already been said.  

[Oakbr]

<font size="4"><i>Amends = Single Concentration Group AE that transfers 40% of hate from each group member to the Pally until cancelled. And make sigil of heroism single target Friend/Raid member hate transfer.</i> <font size="3">Think this would be more than a little overpowered.  Amends is a great spell just as it is.  Really don't want SOE to start messing with it in any way.  The guy in your guild either has grouped with some very bad Paladins, is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], is just pulling your chain, or some combination of the three.  We make very good tanks.  Holding aggro is generally not a problem--more raw HP would be nice, and maybe a boost to mitigation, but as it stands right now, we can get the job done.  At 54, I'm tanking T6 named and lower epics on a routine basis.  I get random tells asking me to come tank for groups when I'm tradeskilling, soloing, questing, etc.  Got a list of friends that invite me to groups anytime they need a tank.  We aren't broken.  </font></font>

[Sasaki Koji]

<DIV>in a single group running around in poets ive gotten 8500hp, im sure i can get more. i forgot my mit and avoidance but /shrug <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. but im a SK and not a paladin <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really dont know why warriors think no one else is capable of tanking anything X2 and above. could it be the mit buffs? could it be that they get parry in their defensive stance and we dont? could it be that theyre little brats <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />? who knows. if it were up to me, id have left those temp mit buffs to priests and mages and not let any fighter use them. they got fury right by giving them a temporary mit buff. Fighters dont need that crap at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>that berzerker didnt have any business telling any other fighter what they can and cant do. every fighter is a tank, period.</DIV>

[Rochir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakbrow wrote:<BR><FONT size=4><I>Amends = Single Concentration Group AE that transfers 40% of hate from each group member to the Pally until cancelled. And make sigil of heroism single target Friend/Raid member hate transfer.</I><BR><BR><FONT size=3>Think this would be more than a little overpowered.  Amends is a great spell just as it is.  Really don't want SOE to start messing with it in any way.  <BR><BR>The guy in your guild either has grouped with some very bad Paladins, is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], is just pulling your chain, or some combination of the three.  We make very good tanks.  Holding aggro is generally not a problem--more raw HP would be nice, and maybe a boost to mitigation, but as it stands right now, we can get the job done.  At 54, I'm tanking T6 named and lower epics on a routine basis.  I get random tells asking me to come tank for groups when I'm tradeskilling, soloing, questing, etc.  Got a list of friends that invite me to groups anytime they need a tank.  We aren't broken.  <BR></FONT></FONT><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/agreed</P> <P>Leave the Paladin alone.   No major changes needed at this time.   Fix the bugs, ie. divine favor.    I like my Paladin the way he is <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Brawler agro needs some work.   They are now the way zerkers used to be.   The pull agro off of us too easily.   </P>

[CycoDelic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GodlyLuther wrote:<BR> <DIV>OK so I started my character Nov. 12 of last year and have since been working my way to the top and Only now after all ive done i get the biggest insult ever from a guildmate.</DIV> <DIV>About to kill Perdition in Maj Dul and 2 tanks in raid of 9 people. Me 59 pally and other guildy 59 zerker.</DIV> <DIV>I have 800 points higher mitigation and mostly all adept 3 or better, Higher HP and had actually just tanked a x2 63 named in a guild raid zone successfully with an average group level of 54.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SO i get there and im told to hang back and help heal because "your not a real tank"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is something wrong with this? I think so. Where does a comment like this come from? Is it the way i play my character or is it the class? Sure enough guess what im told, im not a guardian or a zerker so im not a tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what makes a tank then and where are my weaknesses in my class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation</DIV> <DIV>Avoidance</DIV> <DIV>Hold Hate</DIV> <DIV>Health</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These seem to be the 4 most important things i can come up with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got the mitigation. 3306 solo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Avoidance? Only got 27%..... guardians and zerkers seem to be right at 40-44%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hold aggro--weak taunts and weak siphon--doesnt happen so easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Health? 5200 self buffed...dont have any personal stamina buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was looking so forward to the combat revamp to even things out but they missed again and made it truely worse. We get yet another heal after months of being thrown in with priests and mages. I am not a priest and I am not a mage.</DIV> <DIV>Then push us farther into it by making our ranged Priest Mage Crusader.</DIV> <DIV>I would like to the stats/usefullness of a 2 hand weapon in that slot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So is there anyway to fix this? I find these things useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crusade- 36 wis and str group AE--worthless except a little bit of power</DIV> <DIV>Divine Favor- worthless</DIV> <DIV>Prayer of consectration-worthless</DIV> <DIV>sigil of heroism-flawed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i came up with this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5>3 things that will balance this class = really simple</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Changes these spells to this</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Crusade = Single Concentration self buff that increases Str, Wis, and Sta by 50 at adept 3. Increase Avoidance by 15% at adept 3</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Amends = Single Concentration Group AE that transfers 40% of hate from each group member to the Pally until cancelled. And make sigil of heroism single target Friend/Raid member hate transfer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Prayer of Consecration = Just get rid of this as a heal. Make it a tank utility like anchor ourselves to one spot or something. Im tired of being called on to heal its not my part.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I could live with everything else, even using a cobalt tablet instead of bow. I spent way too much time and plat getting cobalt and vanadiums nad pearls to upgrade everything and be the best my character can be to be just brushed aside and insulted again and again.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>There is nothing wrong with Paladins. There is everything wrong with your guildmate or any in your guild who share his beliefs.</DIV>

[Rarlin]

Aye,There is something obviously wrong with the person who believes that a Paladin is not a MT. I LOVE what SOE has done to us and enjoy my multitasking abilities. If I wanted to play a class that has the abilities of a guardian, I would play a guardian. There is enough difference to make all tanks unique and yet enough similiarity to make each tank useful. Your guild mate was just ignorant or trying to make a quick decision and didn't feel like arguing.

[GodlyLuther]

I am Feeling a lot of Pally love here... makes me less upset :smileyvery-happy:

[Mrhan]

<DIV>just to agree with every1 els here<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Even though i am only lvl 44, so cant comment much on the raid i just have to say as a group mt, they dont get any better than us... aggro management is soo easy, tanking is good aswell and well if the healer is to slow you can always cast a few heals yourself, and generate some more hate!</DIV> <DIV>actually had a berserker tell me the same thing as the OP once, that i wasnt a real tank etc. After i politely pointed out the fact that he had lower mit. and avoidiance than me, i just said the hell with it and let him be the mt... around 10 minutes later we had our first wipe, and i asked if i shouldnt try and be mt once, after a lot of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing he finaly agreed, well needless to say we had a nice group for around a hour with no deaths and well the berserker got very quite after the first succesfull pulls<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>So basicly yeah paladins arent broken, so dont mess with them<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Jezekie]

<span><blockquote><hr>GodlyLuther wrote:<p>Its not that I dont think we arent tanks, its just the insult given and its an ongoing insult. </p><hr></blockquote>It's nothing but a perception issue. The problem is certain players are so integrated on having Guardians tanking that they can't see any other Subclass from the Fighter Archtype in the tank spot, this goes both for priests as well as Guardians who's gotten used to being #1. This phrase, but you aren't a real time will come time and time again, as well as being considered 2nd rank to Guardians primarily because of their flawed perception. The only thing that is going to change the perception is people taking a stand about it, otherwise you're going to find your self "stepped" on as a main tank for the rest of your days.It unfortunately takes a long time to change the mindset of a community when it comes to bigger changes.Paladins aren't alone in this though.</span><div></div>

[Rochir]

<DIV>Fighter tanking specialties are:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladin - Divine/Caster</DIV> <DIV>Gaurdian - Fire</DIV> <DIV>Berzerker - Cold</DIV> <DIV>Monk/Bruiser - Mental/Melee</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins are strongest against caster mobs.</DIV>

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div>Fighter tanking specialties are:</div> <div> </div> <div>Paladin - Divine/Caster</div> <div>Gaurdian - Fire</div> <div>Berzerker - Cold</div> <div>Monk/Bruiser - Mental/Melee</div> <div> </div> <div>Paladins are strongest against caster mobs.</div><hr></blockquote>that was the advertising going into CU, yes.  but don't believe the hype.  at 60, it's pretty easy to max the needed resists on any tank, and against the orange mobs, resists and mitigation of caster damage is basically ignored anyways.  paladins are lower mit plate tanks that can still be effective though not ideal.  interestingly, our agro is arguably better than other plate tanks.  below 57 or so, the above holds true to some extent.</span><div></div>

[Femur]

<P>I'm fairly new to the entire game and this is my first and only character.  While I'm admittedly still learning how to play my character, I feel that a decent grasp of what I'm doing is sinking in.  During my relatively short time with it, I've played mt, assist tank and even as assist healer.  I'm very glad to have found this thread because it comfirms the reason why I'm so happy with my class choice.  Not only have I managed to mt effectively but I know that I've been responsible for avoiding wipes by my group.  To me, there's nothing more exciting or rewarding than being able to jump in to help wherever, whenever it's needed.  Personally, I have no problem allowing someone else to mt and being free to wail on the mob and pop a heal at my leasure.  However, if the need for a mt arises and it's down to me, I also enjoy being able to step up with confidence and do the job.  I've made a couple of alts but have never played them because I so love being a pally.</P> <P>The only time I ever got any guff from another player about pallys it was simply taken care of by mentioning that a look at the combat log will point out who was not only pounding the pud out of the mob, but also who put off the heals at critical times when the mt was in trouble, thus saving us all a wipe.  I think that if people actually paid a little attention to the log and what it tells you about who did what, everyone would be looking for a pally in their group. :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Elikal]

<P>First, since everyone is bashing on the OP, I for once, must agree with him. Paladins have been nerfed down since launch and the Paladin<BR>class is now CONSIDERABLY weaker than it was pre Patch13. I dont know where you great your dreams of grandeur from, but maybe<BR>your Pallies FEEL strong because of the strong groups they are in?</P> <P>Indeed, I took my Pally because he was able to solo the most. I prefer not to group with strangers and usually only with the 1-2 close<BR>friends in games. This is my choice and this was what Paladin did support. The Paladin is so deeply redefined, he just is no longer<BR>a fighter class, but a fighting healer. Now you may like this new philosophy or not, but the Pally is not a Tank or a Fighter anymore,<BR>but a healer in platemail, and I did not built my Pally one year to be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] priest in the end. I have seen enough Pallys die solo<BR>or duo to know you are not that strong, so you can stop to play muscle flexing. In the background of the combat revamp, Paladins<BR>are much weaker than before, andf the proof is we have to heal much more often than before = have less time to make dmg. I dont<BR>like that fighting style at all, plain and simple. You can set nearly ALL clases in the front row, declare him MT and with 7 healers also<BR>manage to keep him alive, but if that makes a good fighter character, I don't know.</P>

[Ilanidr]

<P>i dunno waht your talking about.  Sure paladins took a hit with the updates, but that wasnt anywhere near what you bringing it down to.  I soloed 42-60, grping only a few times, and only with 2-3 other close friends who play the game (Templar and Warlock), and rarley in full groups.  I had no problems in small groups, no problems soloing.  I had gone after waht paladins have a bonus towards, which is undead. I almost never healed myself mid fight, just threw on ward and unloaded the damage.</P> <P>I also see more people prefering the paladin as a tank now in my travels.</P>

[eyes007]

<DIV>Elikal wrote:</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>The Paladin is so deeply redefined, he just is no longer a fighter class, but a fighting healer...Paladins are much weaker than before</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>I can see your bitterness friend, but thats more than just a slight exaggeration. Ask a few of your healer friends (particularly Templars) and see why it sucks to be melee, I've heard of instances where Templars get the beatdown by greys and that toe to toe tanking just gets u dead quicker, I mean they hit for like 1-10 each hit! Pallies are nowhere near that subservient and we have plenty of opportunity to cause a bit of damage. In a normal group if no taunts would be used there is absolutely no way someone can win agro off me through direct arts and normal attack damage, no way in hell! It takes a few heals but Pallies can solo most blue^^^ (thats 3ups) with legendary gear, its not hard at all. It kind of sounds like you gave up days after the patch rather than investigating what all our other talents do, just last night, I noticed I can buff three different people, all different buffs, buff myself and do great direct damage. If I put down shield and sword, my 2hand treasured spear does 230+ damage a hit on auto attack, thats not using arts, at lvl55 AND my piercing at 150/250 lol Thats insane! They always said in testing that our primary damage is our auto attack as that had gone up in power by extreme amounts. I would choose this over a single attack that does 1000 damage, cos it gives me more mana and choice to do other things.</P> <P>I do think our Support role is by far more interesting (as mentioned in my earlier post) and that if you wanted to cause mega damage or be the Main meatshield, why choose a Pally?</P> <P>Sides', if anything Pallies are in more demand for all sorts of reasons now, sometimes yes to be Main Raid tank. Problem is we are a hybrid, it's almost already unfair to other classes now that we rock in PVP lol Those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] furies though, one day dammit, one day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Elikal wrote:<BR> <P>First, since everyone is bashing on the OP, I for once, must agree with him. Paladins have been nerfed down since launch and the Paladin<BR>class is now CONSIDERABLY weaker than it was pre Patch13. I dont know where you great your dreams of grandeur from, but maybe<BR>your Pallies FEEL strong because of the strong groups they are in?</P> <P>Indeed, I took my Pally because he was able to solo the most. I prefer not to group with strangers and usually only with the 1-2 close<BR>friends in games. This is my choice and this was what Paladin did support. The Paladin is so deeply redefined, he just is no longer<BR>a fighter class, but a fighting healer. Now you may like this new philosophy or not, but the Pally is not a Tank or a Fighter anymore,<BR>but a healer in platemail, and I did not built my Pally one year to be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] priest in the end. I have seen enough Pallys die solo<BR>or duo to know you are not that strong, so you can stop to play muscle flexing. In the background of the combat revamp, Paladins<BR>are much weaker than before, andf the proof is we have to heal much more often than before = have less time to make dmg. I dont<BR>like that fighting style at all, plain and simple. You can set nearly ALL clases in the front row, declare him MT and with 7 healers also<BR>manage to keep him alive, but if that makes a good fighter character, I don't know.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What class are you playing? The paladin class has been adjusted, certainly, but underpowered compared to before LU13? We've moved significantly up the tanking chart. Our agro skills are, simply, incredible at this point. As a solo class, the increase of effectiveness in our Ward line makes us far more effective. And yes, we even got upgraded healing capability. (Would you prefer we have, as a group, declined that gift? They -improved- our healing capability. Would you like the old, -horrible- nonupgradable Lay Hands?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Posts like this frustrate me to no end. There are wide, sweeping claims with -no- evidence to back them up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> It's like you're at the turn of the century, still riding a horse and buggy, stubbornly refusing to give it up even as the decades pass and everyone else gets automobiles. Our class has gotten better and more effective. We're amazing as tanks. Live in the now, my friend. Live in the now.</DIV>

[eyes007]

<DIV>[Removed for Content]</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Pathin Merrithay wrote:</P> <P>Live in the now, my friend. Live in the now</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>OMG I soooo love that saying! :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Hang on -you can upgrade Lay Hands? jk <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[GodlyLuther]

Just got done reading discriptions of classes for tank types on Vanguard Forums, was very much impressed especially by pally description.

[Rochir]

Pallys are just fine.  Someone drive a stake in this threads heart, its dead :smileymad:

[Jindris]

<P>To the O.P:</P> <P>I don't know what is wrong with your character, but my mitigation at level 55 is 58% self buffed. Avoidance is 49% self buffed. Health is 5300 self buffed.</P> <P>At the moment, Paladins are -THE- tank. The whole EQ2 player base is in denial of that fact. Sooner or later they will fix warriors and everyone can pretend like it never happened.</P>

[Chinett]

Jeez people, quite whining already -- let's not draw further dev attention cause if anything we might end up with the nerf-bat aimed at us. I'm at lvl51, have unexceptional equipment (no cobalt) and only a couple of spells better than Adept 1, and I tank fine 90% of the time in all contexts including raids. If I was a more-regular player I'd have more cash and hence better equipment and that figure would go to 98%. Meanwhile I can solo great, or duo/trio well cause we can heal and ward ourselves better than any other tank-type class, and other classes know it at least on my server (Najena) so I never wait long for offers. The combat changes were great for us. Meanwhile I see other classes like templar and guardian feeling so nerfed that they want to quit the game. I love my paladin as is, so hush!!! <div></div>

[XskullbusterX]

I agree the Paladin is good right now .. still can be a bit better <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lower some recast times on some of the CAs ... like Refusal <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> oooh what a dream ... and they need to fix the bug with Amends and other Hate Transfer Spells ... but all in all im pretty happy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Espyderman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GodlyLuther wrote:<BR> <DIV>OK so I started my character Nov. 12 of last year and have since been working my way to the top and Only now after all ive done i get the biggest insult ever from a guildmate.</DIV> <DIV>About to kill Perdition in Maj Dul and 2 tanks in raid of 9 people. Me 59 pally and other guildy 59 zerker.</DIV> <DIV>I have 800 points higher mitigation and mostly all adept 3 or better, Higher HP and had actually just tanked a x2 63 named in a guild raid zone successfully with an average group level of 54.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SO i get there and im told to hang back and help heal because "your not a real tank"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is something wrong with this? I think so. Where does a comment like this come from? Is it the way i play my character or is it the class? Sure enough guess what im told, im not a guardian or a zerker so im not a tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what makes a tank then and where are my weaknesses in my class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation</DIV> <DIV>Avoidance</DIV> <DIV>Hold Hate</DIV> <DIV>Health</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These seem to be the 4 most important things i can come up with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got the mitigation. 3306 solo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Avoidance? Only got 27%..... guardians and zerkers seem to be right at 40-44%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hold aggro--weak taunts and weak siphon--doesnt happen so easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Health? 5200 self buffed...dont have any personal stamina buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was looking so forward to the combat revamp to even things out but they missed again and made it truely worse. We get yet another heal after months of being thrown in with priests and mages. I am not a priest and I am not a mage.</DIV> <DIV>Then push us farther into it by making our ranged Priest Mage Crusader.</DIV> <DIV>I would like to the stats/usefullness of a 2 hand weapon in that slot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So is there anyway to fix this? I find these things useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crusade- 36 wis and str group AE--worthless except a little bit of power</DIV> <DIV>Divine Favor- worthless</DIV> <DIV>Prayer of consectration-worthless</DIV> <DIV>sigil of heroism-flawed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i came up with this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5>3 things that will balance this class = really simple</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Changes these spells to this</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Crusade = Single Concentration self buff that increases Str, Wis, and Sta by 50 at adept 3. Increase Avoidance by 15% at adept 3</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Amends = Single Concentration Group AE that transfers 40% of hate from each group member to the Pally until cancelled. And make sigil of heroism single target Friend/Raid member hate transfer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Prayer of Consecration = Just get rid of this as a heal. Make it a tank utility like anchor ourselves to one spot or something. Im tired of being called on to heal its not my part.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I could live with everything else, even using a cobalt tablet instead of bow. I spent way too much time and plat getting cobalt and vanadiums nad pearls to upgrade everything and be the best my character can be to be just brushed aside and insulted again and again.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We have taunts, stances, wards and heals. I think we are btter tanks then anyone. Whoever says pallys cant tank, dont know the game.

[TheGreatStoney]

<P>Ok, im tired of people bashing the original poster, saying he doesnt know his class. The problem is you dont know the other classes and what they can do. If you knew what the other tanks had for spells you would diffinately see why we are never going to be the preferred tank in a raid.</P> <P>Guardian spells.<BR></P> <P>Guardian 60 Plant Roots the guardian in place. This effect increases trauma mitigation and decreases the guardian's attack rate and melee attack damage.<BR><BR>Guardian 58 Stance: Steadfast Stance Greatly increases defense, parry, physical and heat damage mitigation at the cost of offensive melee skills and combat attack damage. This is the guardian's primary defensive stance</P> <DIV>Guardian 57 Inflaming Defense Grants a chance to increase hate with any opponent that damages the guardian. This ability also roots the guardian in place.</DIV> <P></P>Guardian 58 Goading Assault An area of effect melee attack that increases the target encounter's hate towards the guardian. <P></P>Guardian 56 Steely Conviction Increases the guardian's stamina. <P></P>Guardian 55 Wall of Might Increases the defense of the guardian in exchange for decreased movement and attack speeds. Also grants a chance to root opponents that attack the guardian in melee. <P></P>Guardian 55 Sentry Watch Allows the guardian to intervene and take the damage that would have otherwise killed an ally in the group for a short duration. This also increases the enemy's hate towards the guardian when this effect triggers. <P></P>Guardian 54 Commanding Aura Increases the physical defense of the guardian's group against slashing, piercing, and crushing attacks for a short duration. Defense versus slashing and piercing attacks is improved <P></P>Guardian 52 Reinforcement Increases the hate position of the guardian for every enemy the guardian successfully attacks. <P></P>Guardian 52 Call of Defense Increases the defense skill of the guardian's group. <P> </P> <P>LOOK AT ALL THAT! Please tell me why any raid leader would be stupid enough to let a paladin tank over a guardian, when they get all these combat arts. A guardian can increase there mitigation by a lot during a fight, and only have a minute in between cast times. For us to tank effectively we, would have to sacrifice a class that would give us main tank buffs, for a dps class that would help us hold aggro. A guardian doesnt need that, as you can see he gets multiple spells that help him keep aggro, just as good as us.</P> <P>If your ever going to understand our class, your going to have to understand what the other tank classes can do. Guardians get more mitigation and more health than us. That alone sets them above and beyond us. Our heals cannot even come close to make up for the mitigation and health.  We need to get rid of all these crappy damage spells we get, and replace them with combat arts that ACTUALLY help us tank.</P> <P>For anyone saying we arent supposed to compare our classes and yadda yadda, Sony has put us in the same category as Guardians, saying we are going to be tank classes. Were supposed to be doing that a different way than guardians, and that is fine. But right now the difference is, Guardians can tank better and more efficiently than us. We sacrifice way too much tanking abilities....for what? Damage spells? Guardians have more group utility than us. Being able to intercept all damage for the group is great.</P> <P>I love my class, and any game i play i'll always choose paladin over any class. But Everquest 2 has done the worst job on this class that i've ever seen.<BR>Sony needs to actually think before they make changes. Either make a separate category for fighters, like Support Fighters or something , and not list us all as Fighters/Tanks, unless we are all going to be able to *TANK* as effectively as the next fighter.</P> <P>Vanguard has started off on the right foot, by saying all tanks will TANK just as good as the next tank, but they will all do it in their own unique way.</P> <P>I envision Paladins leading raids into deep dungeons full of epic encounters. But it appauls me right now that Guardians tank Undead better than us. We are Holy Knights , and undead creatures should fear us more than anything else.</P> <P>Fellow Paladins, I urge you to study the other fighter classes, look at the combat arts they get, and you will begin to understand why we are so flawed as a fighter class. We need to work together if we want Sony to make changes to our classes.</P>

[XskullbusterX]

<DIV>Aye ... i agree Guardians have the upper advantage .... but as a paladin I have tanked Raid mobs and single group mobs and we can hold our own ... im not bashing anyone and i agree there are some here that are .. this shouldnt be a place for FLAMING... this should be a place to get the most out of a conversation so that we can hopefully get our class where we would like to get it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for us tanking Raid mobs ... yes we can do it ... is it logical probably not with all that guardians bring to the table .. its just not likely unless you get a mob like Terrorantula who is immune to guardians taunts ... ONE MOB ... woopie right ... well you know what ... these are the cards we are dealt lets not whine or [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and moan ... lets just play our toons and make the most out of it ... I for one am loving our class right now ... wish we had a little more but DoF was a nice change for us ...  ive been frustrated due to us having great heals and basically becoming an offtank healer <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lol but hey its part of the game <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree with <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=8472" target=top><SPAN>TheGreatStoney</SPAN></A> lets quit bashing the creator of this post and look at the other classes around us ... It will always be that GUARDIANS are the best primary tank... and the fact is if any of us wanted to be a PRIMARY tank we should of chosen to ROLL a GUARDIAN ... so lets sit back  ...  kick up our feet ... open up the can of beer ... and relax and enjoy the game <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> </DIV>

[Oakbr]

<DIV> <P><EM>Fellow Paladins, I urge you to study the other fighter classes, look at the combat arts they get, and you will begin to understand why we are so flawed as a fighter class. We need to work together if we want Sony to make changes to our classes.</EM></P> <P>You can't balance a class looking only at raiding.  Raiding is a small part of the game, and something many players will never experience at all.  "We" do NOT want SoE dorking around with our class again.  We're fine the way we are.  In a group setting, we can tank anything level appropriate.  We can also tank some raid targets.  This is the way Karana intended it to be.</P> <P><EM></EM> </P></DIV>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheGreatStoney wrote:<BR> <P>Ok, im tired of people bashing the original poster, saying he doesnt know his class. The problem is you dont know the other classes and what they can do. If you knew what the other tanks had for spells you would diffinately see why we are never going to be the preferred tank in a raid.</P> <P>Guardian spells.<BR></P> <P>Guardian 60 Plant Roots the guardian in place. This effect increases trauma mitigation and decreases the guardian's attack rate and melee attack damage.</P> <P><STRONG><U>OK, great, it roots them. So if they lose agro, they're [Removed for Content]. Mob runs and either raid wipes or they sit around useless.</U></STRONG><BR><BR>Guardian 58 Stance: Steadfast Stance Greatly increases defense, parry, physical and heat damage mitigation at the cost of offensive melee skills and combat attack damage. This is the guardian's primary defensive stance</P> <P><STRONG><U>Yeah, we get this too.</U></STRONG></P> <DIV>Guardian 57 Inflaming Defense Grants a chance to increase hate with any opponent that damages the guardian. This ability also roots the guardian in place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>So, it's agro abilities you want to try comparing us to? Pallies currently have the best agro skills in the game. Sorry, this ability is a joke compared to the Amends/functioning Sigil abilities.</U></STRONG></DIV> <P></P> <P>Guardian 58 Goading Assault An area of effect melee attack that increases the target encounter's hate towards the guardian.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Ours is called Zealous Preaching. I have mine at Master 2 currently.</U></STRONG></P> <P></P> <P>Guardian 56 Steely Conviction Increases the guardian's stamina.</P> <P><STRONG><U>And we buff both Stamina and Wis. They do have us totally beat with HP buffs, but that gap has been fixed since they adjusted the guardian buff stacking bugs.</U></STRONG></P> <P></P> <P>Guardian 55 Wall of Might Increases the defense of the guardian in exchange for decreased movement and attack speeds. Also grants a chance to root opponents that attack the guardian in melee.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Think this is ever going to root an Epic mob?</U></STRONG> </P> <P></P> <P>Guardian 55 Sentry Watch Allows the guardian to intervene and take the damage that would have otherwise killed an ally in the group for a short duration. This also increases the enemy's hate towards the guardian when this effect triggers.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Awesome ability... For an off tank.</U></STRONG></P> <P></P> <P>Guardian 54 Commanding Aura Increases the physical defense of the guardian's group against slashing, piercing, and crushing attacks for a short duration. Defense versus slashing and piercing attacks is improved</P> <P><STRONG><U>Which means with a Pally MT, this effects them too.</U></STRONG></P> <P></P> <P>Guardian 52 Reinforcement Increases the hate position of the guardian for every enemy the guardian successfully attacks.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Consecrated Aura. I can out DPS most Mage classes in the right circumstances. It's constant (meaning still goes even when you've stifled, so you are -always- generating damage and hate with it... </U></STRONG></P> <P></P>Guardian 52 Call of Defense Increases the defense skill of the guardian's group. <P><STRONG><U>And again, this means it'll buff a Pally MT too.</U></STRONG></P> <P>LOOK AT ALL THAT! Please tell me why any raid leader would be stupid enough to let a paladin tank over a guardian, when they get all these combat arts. A guardian can increase there mitigation by a lot during a fight, and only have a minute in between cast times. For us to tank effectively we, would have to sacrifice a class that would give us main tank buffs, for a dps class that would help us hold aggro. A guardian doesnt need that, as you can see he gets multiple spells that help him keep aggro, just as good as us.</P> <P><STRONG><U>I highly suggest looking into the Conjurer class, which should be a staple of any MT group anyway, and have arguably the quickest hate generating AE's of any Mage class (save perhaps Warlocks, and even that I still woulodn't put down plat. </U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U>*SNIP*</U></STRONG></P> <P>Fellow Paladins, I urge you to study the other fighter classes, look at the combat arts they get, and you will begin to understand why we are so flawed as a fighter class. We need to work together if we want Sony to make changes to our classes.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P><STRONG><U>I've made a point in studying other fighter classes. Extensively, in fact, both in real world situations and on paper. I didn't just pull abilities from a list off the Guardian section of the SoE page. I'm all about change for the better. I do agree we have some abilities that need adjusting. I'd love some more long range spells, or shorter recasts on certain others. Guardians have the advantage over Paladins in Raw Mit and HP's... But this advantage is no longer so overwhelming as to justify the concept that a Guardian should always be the default tank. In fact, I think they make better off tanks then anyone else... But what we do have are superior agro management skills. With these, a raid can do more overal DPS and things die faster. </U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U>Way back when, Moorguard posted the 'hierachy' of tanking. Guards were the most defensive (as evidenced by Mit and HPs, and Pallies were second (as evidenced by what I see as the games perhaps most complicated, but most effective agro management skills)</U></STRONG> <U><STRONG>I'm fully and totally aware of what other tanks get. Go ahead and read the guardian threads... Go on, I'll give you a few minutes to do so. Ok, back? Do you see all the complaints?</STRONG> <STRONG>If they were still the end all be all of raid tanking, do you think any of those threads would be a tenth as long as they are?</STRONG><BR></U></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Rochir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakbrow wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><EM>Fellow Paladins, I urge you to study the other fighter classes, look at the combat arts they get, and you will begin to understand why we are so flawed as a fighter class. We need to work together if we want Sony to make changes to our classes.</EM></P> <P>You can't balance a class looking only at raiding.  Raiding is a small part of the game, and something many players will never experience at all.  "We" do NOT want SoE dorking around with our class again.  We're fine the way we are.  In a group setting, we can tank anything level appropriate.  We can also tank some raid targets.  This is the way Karana intended it to be.</P> <P><EM></EM> </P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>/agreed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets fix the bugs and move on <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I resemble the "dorking" remark.   That would imply that some people who work at SOE are "dorks".   However, we know that the EQ2 Team is the coolest group of game developers in the digital entertainmaint industry! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did I suck up enough or do I need to do it some more?</DIV>

[Anzak]

I disagree with the we can tank some raid targets.  We can tank all raid targets.  If we can't tank it the more than likely the guild is not geared up weel enough to kill it.  End of Story. <div></div>

[CycoDelic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GodlyLuther wrote:<BR> <DIV>OK so I started my character Nov. 12 of last year and have since been working my way to the top and Only now after all ive done i get the biggest insult ever from a guildmate.</DIV> <DIV>About to kill Perdition in Maj Dul and 2 tanks in raid of 9 people. Me 59 pally and other guildy 59 zerker.</DIV> <DIV>I have 800 points higher mitigation and mostly all adept 3 or better, Higher HP and had actually just tanked a x2 63 named in a guild raid zone successfully with an average group level of 54.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SO i get there and im told to hang back and help heal because "your not a real tank"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is something wrong with this? I think so. Where does a comment like this come from? Is it the way i play my character or is it the class? Sure enough guess what im told, im not a guardian or a zerker so im not a tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what makes a tank then and where are my weaknesses in my class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation</DIV> <DIV>Avoidance</DIV> <DIV>Hold Hate</DIV> <DIV>Health</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These seem to be the 4 most important things i can come up with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got the mitigation. 3306 solo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Avoidance? Only got 27%..... guardians and zerkers seem to be right at 40-44%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hold aggro--weak taunts and weak siphon--doesnt happen so easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Health? 5200 self buffed...dont have any personal stamina buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was looking so forward to the combat revamp to even things out but they missed again and made it truely worse. We get yet another heal after months of being thrown in with priests and mages. I am not a priest and I am not a mage.</DIV> <DIV>Then push us farther into it by making our ranged Priest Mage Crusader.</DIV> <DIV>I would like to the stats/usefullness of a 2 hand weapon in that slot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So is there anyway to fix this? I find these things useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crusade- 36 wis and str group AE--worthless except a little bit of power</DIV> <DIV>Divine Favor- worthless</DIV> <DIV>Prayer of consectration-worthless</DIV> <DIV>sigil of heroism-flawed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i came up with this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=5>3 things that will balance this class = really simple</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Changes these spells to this</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Crusade = Single Concentration self buff that increases Str, Wis, and Sta by 50 at adept 3. Increase Avoidance by 15% at adept 3</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Amends = Single Concentration Group AE that transfers 40% of hate from each group member to the Pally until cancelled. And make sigil of heroism single target Friend/Raid member hate transfer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4>Prayer of Consecration = Just get rid of this as a heal. Make it a tank utility like anchor ourselves to one spot or something. Im tired of being called on to heal its not my part.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I could live with everything else, even using a cobalt tablet instead of bow. I spent way too much time and plat getting cobalt and vanadiums nad pearls to upgrade everything and be the best my character can be to be just brushed aside and insulted again and again.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This is to OP's message. From what I have seen most were offering support for the OP and not much bashing at all. He offered some suggestions on changes which were moot as most were letting him know it isnt him or his class, yet those stating he wasnt a tank (his "friends" and "guildmates") that were wrong. He even replied he felt the love (i felt no sarcasm in that!)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dead Thread, yer fine mate, dont believe the hype, fight the power, 54 40 or Fight, and all that...</DIV>

[TheGreatStoney]

<FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT><FONT color=#ff0033></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT><FONT color=#ff0033></FONT><FONT color=#ff0033></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pathin Merrithay wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheGreatStoney wrote:<BR> <P>Ok, im tired of people bashing the original poster, saying he doesnt know his class. The problem is you dont know the other classes and what they can do. If you knew what the other tanks had for spells you would diffinately see why we are never going to be the preferred tank in a raid.</P> <P>Guardian spells.<BR></P> <P>Guardian 60 Plant Roots the guardian in place. This effect increases trauma mitigation and decreases the guardian's attack rate and melee attack damage.</P> <P><STRONG><U>OK, great, it roots them. So if they lose agro, they're [Removed for Content]. Mob runs and either raid wipes or they sit around useless.</U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0000>When my guild raids, the tank NEVER moves, healers and dps are separate so you wont wipe, and with the stupid speed boost epics get, it doesnt matter if they can move.</FONT></U></STRONG><BR><BR>Guardian 58 Stance: Steadfast Stance Greatly increases defense, parry, physical and heat damage mitigation at the cost of offensive melee skills and combat attack damage. This is the guardian's primary defensive stance</P> <P><STRONG><U>Yeah, we get this too.</U></STRONG></P> <DIV>Guardian 57 Inflaming Defense Grants a chance to increase hate with any opponent that damages the guardian. This ability also roots the guardian in place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>So, it's agro abilities you want to try comparing us to? Pallies currently have the best agro skills in the game. Sorry, this ability is a joke compared to the Amends/functioning Sigil abilities.</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0000>Aggro is not a problem for guardians, although we do have much more aggro control than they do. A few rangers on our raid can hit 800 dps and the guardian has no problem holding aggro. When the mob is yellow/orange, Inflaming defense is going to give them alot of aggro.  Paladins would have to sacrfice a class that would give them better defensive buffs for a class that does alot of dps to hold aggro.</FONT></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P> <P>Guardian 58 Goading Assault An area of effect melee attack that increases the target encounter's hate towards the guardian.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Ours is called Zealous Preaching. I have mine at Master 2 currently.</U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0000>I'll have to check, but if this is an AOE taunt, than its way better than our Encounter- Taunt. The beserkers get an AOE taunt thats real nice. </FONT></U></STRONG></P> <P></P> <P>Guardian 56 Steely Conviction Increases the guardian's stamina.</P> <P><STRONG><U>And we buff both Stamina and Wis. They do have us totally beat with HP buffs, but that gap has been fixed since they adjusted the guardian buff stacking bugs.</U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0033>Oh i have no problem with them having more health, they are supposed to. But was really makes me mad, is our power pool. It has to be INCREASED to the equivalent of our health difference. I'm tired of having 400+ wis 300+ stregnth and the other fighters having nearly the same power pool.  We should only have one stat affecting our power pool like the other ones.</FONT></U></STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Guardian 55 Wall of Might Increases the defense of the guardian in exchange for decreased movement and attack speeds. Also grants a chance to root opponents that attack the guardian in melee.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Think this is ever going to root an Epic mob?</U></STRONG> </P> <P><U><FONT color=#ff0033><STRONG>Who cares about the root? What is our equivalent spell? We have way too many damage spells/attacks, we need more skills that allow us to tank.</STRONG></FONT></U></P> <P></P> <P>Guardian 55 Sentry Watch Allows the guardian to intervene and take the damage that would have otherwise killed an ally in the group for a short duration. This also increases the enemy's hate towards the guardian when this effect triggers.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Awesome ability... For an off tank.</U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0033>yes it is, espcially when you have alot of guardians in the raid, helps out alot on AE's,</FONT></U></STRONG></P> <P></P> <P>Guardian 54 Commanding Aura Increases the physical defense of the guardian's group against slashing, piercing, and crushing attacks for a short duration. Defense versus slashing and piercing attacks is improved</P> <P><STRONG><U>Which means with a Pally MT, this effects them too</U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0033>I'd like more utitlity for our class in groups, all we bring is 34 wis/str, and a cheap proc. Oh, and a group heal thats way too power costly. </FONT></U></STRONG></P> <P> </P> <P></P> <P>Guardian 52 Reinforcement Increases the hate position of the guardian for every enemy the guardian successfully attacks.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Consecrated Aura. I can out DPS most Mage classes in the right circumstances. It's constant (meaning still goes even when you've stifled, so you are -always- generating damage and hate with it...</U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0033>Put a Fury in the main tank group and the combination of reinforcement and damage shields will do the equivalent damage and a ton more hate than our aura.</FONT></U></STRONG></P> <P> </P> <P></P>Guardian 52 Call of Defense Increases the defense skill of the guardian's group. <P><STRONG><U>And again, this means it'll buff a Pally MT too.</U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0033>And again, this shows our lack in group utility compared to other fighter classes.</FONT></U></STRONG></P> <P>LOOK AT ALL THAT! Please tell me why any raid leader would be stupid enough to let a paladin tank over a guardian, when they get all these combat arts. A guardian can increase there mitigation by a lot during a fight, and only have a minute in between cast times. For us to tank effectively we, would have to sacrifice a class that would give us main tank buffs, for a dps class that would help us hold aggro. A guardian doesnt need that, as you can see he gets multiple spells that help him keep aggro, just as good as us.</P> <P><STRONG><U>I highly suggest looking into the Conjurer class, which should be a staple of any MT group anyway, and have arguably the quickest hate generating AE's of any Mage class (save perhaps Warlocks, and even that I still woulodn't put down plat.</U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0033>I believe conjurers have a ton of AOE spells, and because of that, they dont get to use them alot on raids due to Mezzing and other enouncters in the area. (Silent CIty).  And they are usually spending alot of time in raids passing out Shards,</FONT></U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U>*SNIP*</U></STRONG></P> <P>Fellow Paladins, I urge you to study the other fighter classes, look at the combat arts they get, and you will begin to understand why we are so flawed as a fighter class. We need to work together if we want Sony to make changes to our classes.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P><STRONG><U>I've made a point in studying other fighter classes. Extensively, in fact, both in real world situations and on paper. I didn't just pull abilities from a list off the Guardian section of the SoE page. I'm all about change for the better. I do agree we have some abilities that need adjusting. I'd love some more long range spells, or shorter recasts on certain others. Guardians have the advantage over Paladins in Raw Mit and HP's... But this advantage is no longer so overwhelming as to justify the concept that a Guardian should always be the default tank. In fact, I think they make better off tanks then anyone else... But what we do have are superior agro management skills. With these, a raid can do more overal DPS and things die faster. </U></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><U>Way back when, Moorguard posted the 'hierachy' of tanking. Guards were the most defensive (as evidenced by Mit and HPs, and Pallies were second (as evidenced by what I see as the games perhaps most complicated, but most effective agro management skills)</U></STRONG> <U><STRONG>I'm fully and totally aware of what other tanks get. Go ahead and read the guardian threads... Go on, I'll give you a few minutes to do so. Ok, back? Do you see all the complaints?</STRONG> <STRONG>If they were still the end all be all of raid tanking, do you think any of those threads would be a tenth as long as they are?</STRONG></U></P> <P><U><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0033>Yea, i know they whine alot lol. But all the guardians in my guild dont, they know there the best tank. And i'd say beserkers are next in line. In a regular isntance group we run, he hit 7k mitigation, a feat paladins probably will never come close to. Its there short duration mitigation buffs that put us back in the tank line up. What i would love us to get is a short duration resist buff. like across the board, 1000-1500 resists vs all (Except Physical) That would help establish us a  caster tank. </FONT></STRONG></U></P> <P><U><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0033>NOTE: I dont want our class to become just like the guardian or beserker. I want us to be unique. We have way too many damage spells/attacks. Some of these should be replaced with spells that help define our class as a caster tank.  </FONT></STRONG><BR></U></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Anzak]

Having a short duration resist buff would do no good.  From what I have read the cap on resist is 4670 which is 70% vs level 67 Mobs.  Trust me it is not hard to get 5K in any resist without trying.  As for getting 7K Mit well that is great except that does nothing.  3800 is about 60% vs level 58 Mobs it goes down about 2% per level so at level 67 that is 48% So lets see 7K mit is what about 96% mit which is hard capped at 80% which means 6k or 6.5K is all you need and Pallies can get that with the right gear as well. Guards have tower shields so they get about 3% better avoidance.  Pallies get amends and yes put the DPS person in your group you will not lose that much buff wise.  Pallies will hold agro better Guards will have to work a bit more but they get a slight advantage in avoidance.  Either way the difference will not be enough to say one is enough better than the other to be a must have and it will come down to gear and player skill. <div></div>

[GodlyLuther]

Hey Anzak could ya mention where ya read this at? Im anxious to see more info like that

[Anzak]

Well in my guild Forums we have a thread for Tanks and a thread for healers and the leaders in each class posted info for their class to that thead.  In there one of our Templars put a chart that showed from 50-67 what the max resist is.  At 50 it was 3500 at 67 it was 4670 which btw is 70xlevel.  I have looked into this a bit and the formula seems right.  I asked him where he got that info but he didn't say. As for Mitigation I'm taking an Educated guess on that.  But I have been watching my mitigation over the past few levels.  I have been in full Cobalt since level 53 so the raw values have not changed much.  I can get to about 3800 Mit normally and that is 62.6% at 58 and I have noticed that it goes down about 2%-3% a level. I wish we had a better way to see our mitigation on a number of levels but this will have to do I guess.  Also the same would be nice for avoidance.  Maybe something where it shows our mit/avoid vs the mob we have targeted.  Though this might be asking too much as it takes the guessing game out of picking a tank.  Who has the HIghest mit to this mob and then oh we have 2 at 80% well who of you two has the highest avoidance vs it. <div></div>

[Caetrel]

To the OP: If you are having avoidance problems, here are a couple ideas: Make sure your defensive stance is on.  Upgrade it to adept 3 or master asap. Equip a shield.  Make sure you are using a weapon with agility, cobalt is fine. I prefer stamina over agility, but equip any gear that will boost agility when possible.  You should be able to get to 40% or more avoidance pretty easily. Aggro is good for us.  Sometimes raiding I will pull off the MT from ammends.  Another paladin in my guild who is usually in a scout dps group often has to put a lower version like Redemption on our Ranger or Swash because if he uses amends he will pull aggro.  This spell is very powerful.  The downfall to it as a raid tank is you need a high dps class in your group for it to work best, and that isn't usually the best class to have in the MT group.  When trying to hold aggro, I never use any dps arts or spells...Unflinching Conviction is the only exception, as this is a quick cast that you can use to grab early aggro.  Refusal of Faith and such are useless when tanking a raid.  Better hate for less power comes from your taunts, stuns and ward, heals etc...You can hold aggro in any raid with Ammends, Zealous Preaching, Clarion Cry, and the shield bash alone.  Mitigation- cobalt and vanadium gear will get you over 3k, plus there are some easy to get fabled items like Immoveable Barbute from Roost. Hope this is of use... <div></div>

[Wil81115]

<DIV>Im a lv 60 Pally. AND I LOVE TANKING,  and do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fine job at it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have 3393 mit (full cobalt + fabled gloves and helm & Bery symbol +55)</DIV> <DIV>5300hp'ish(respec'd and picked all the STA ones), a Crimson Rock Targe it ends up being around 46% avoid</DIV> <DIV>(i have Faithful Beni M1 =)) full pearl jewerly set and vanadium set(switching back and forth and mixing and matching to stay under the cap), hex dolls, etc. And dont forget potions on raids.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In our guilds raid setup, i usually hover around 4100 mit and 8.5k hp's.  im just under cap for str and wis, switching some gear for certain resists on certain mobs, etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(i'd like to compare notes with the guy that gets 10k hp's..)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After going many rounds with x2's, x4's in Silent City(w/ only 2-4 healers and less then 2 - 3 groups sometimes) i can say for a fact that we can tank just as well if not better then guardians/zekers.  Besides what happens when they're planted and one mob goes for the casters...  they cant move and taunt if the mob is out of range. :-p   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With Amends(i happen to have Master 1 as well)  on a VERY well scribed Warlock(master this, master that... ) , using Sigil when the time is right, taunting every chance the spells are up, starting, advancing and finishing HO's you should very rarely lose aggro.  I personally use the HO's to pull mobs and build agro before i call my guild to assist.  If i miss the 1st or 2nd HO i make them wait until the next one is up with only me attacking the mob(yes epic mobs as well) until i know i have enough that i my favourite wiz buddy, who goes DPS F'n wild every chance he gets, wont get aggro unless i want him to(shhhh  :-p  )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For all those who say we cant tank S#@&,  they dont know how WELL WE CAN, you just have to TRY =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are also great Main Assist's if need be.  Between the sheild bash, our Cry taunt, some HO's..  i can pull a mob off our other tank(s) and off tank them when needed..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you will only be as good as you want to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yunicski</DIV> <DIV>lv 60 Paladin on Kithicor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lord Arth]

OK listen up beacuse this is the truth right here.... I have been a paladin for over 10 months now.. i have no alts. all my energy and coin goes into my character....PALADINS ARE GREAT TANKS!     !!!!! HOWEVER!!!!!!      I have been in an high-end raiding guild for 8 months now. When it comes to raiding x4 epics (not x2 but x4) we are not the favor tank... We are great tanks when it comes to tanking for 1 and even 2 full grps of ppl. the problem is we can control and hold hate very well for 1 or 2 grps, we just cant hold it well when were tanking for 24 ppl in raids against x4 epics.. the other grps in the raid have tehre high [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] dps which kills our hate control. we are good tanks, just not as good in raids. we can ony control hate so much but when there are variables added in raids guardian/zerker is the way to go. So, we are very good tanks when it comes to tanking for 6 or even 12 ppl just not 24ppl in raids...

[TheGreatStoney]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wil81115 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im a lv 60 Pally. AND I LOVE TANKING,  and do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fine job at it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have 3393 mit (full cobalt + fabled gloves and helm & Bery symbol +55)</DIV> <DIV>5300hp'ish(respec'd and picked all the STA ones), a Crimson Rock Targe it ends up being around 46% avoid</DIV> <DIV>(i have Faithful Beni M1 =)) full pearl jewerly set and vanadium set(switching back and forth and mixing and matching to stay under the cap), hex dolls, etc. And dont forget potions on raids.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In our guilds raid setup, i usually hover around 4100 mit and 8.5k hp's.  im just under cap for str and wis, switching some gear for certain resists on certain mobs, etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(i'd like to compare notes with the guy that gets 10k hp's..)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After going many rounds with x2's, x4's in Silent City(w/ only 2-4 healers and less then 2 - 3 groups sometimes) i can say for a fact that we can tank just as well if not better then guardians/zekers.  Besides what happens when they're planted and one mob goes for the casters...  they cant move and taunt if the mob is out of range. :-p   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With Amends(i happen to have Master 1 as well)  on a VERY well scribed Warlock(master this, master that... ) , using Sigil when the time is right, taunting every chance the spells are up, starting, advancing and finishing HO's you should very rarely lose aggro.  I personally use the HO's to pull mobs and build agro before i call my guild to assist.  If i miss the 1st or 2nd HO i make them wait until the next one is up with only me attacking the mob(yes epic mobs as well) until i know i have enough that i my favourite wiz buddy, who goes DPS F'n wild every chance he gets, wont get aggro unless i want him to(shhhh  :-p  )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For all those who say we cant tank S#@&,  they dont know how WELL WE CAN, you just have to TRY =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are also great Main Assist's if need be.  Between the sheild bash, our Cry taunt, some HO's..  i can pull a mob off our other tank(s) and off tank them when needed..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you will only be as good as you want to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yunicski</DIV> <DIV>lv 60 Paladin on Kithicor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes we can hold aggro just fine, and i can hit 3400 mit and 40+ avoidance self buffed. But Guardians will still have an easy 1k mitigation over us. And if a guardian did the same thing you did when tanking (Waiting 30 seconds before dps goes crazy, he wouldnt lose aggro either)<BR>

[Majorminor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheGreatStoney wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wil81115 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im a lv 60 Pally. AND I LOVE TANKING,  and do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fine job at it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have 3393 mit (full cobalt + fabled gloves and helm & Bery symbol +55)</DIV> <DIV>5300hp'ish(respec'd and picked all the STA ones), a Crimson Rock Targe it ends up being around 46% avoid</DIV> <DIV>(i have Faithful Beni M1 =)) full pearl jewerly set and vanadium set(switching back and forth and mixing and matching to stay under the cap), hex dolls, etc. And dont forget potions on raids.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In our guilds raid setup, i usually hover around 4100 mit and 8.5k hp's.  im just under cap for str and wis, switching some gear for certain resists on certain mobs, etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(i'd like to compare notes with the guy that gets 10k hp's..)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After going many rounds with x2's, x4's in Silent City(w/ only 2-4 healers and less then 2 - 3 groups sometimes) i can say for a fact that we can tank just as well if not better then guardians/zekers.  Besides what happens when they're planted and one mob goes for the casters...  they cant move and taunt if the mob is out of range. :-p   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With Amends(i happen to have Master 1 as well)  on a VERY well scribed Warlock(master this, master that... ) , using Sigil when the time is right, taunting every chance the spells are up, starting, advancing and finishing HO's you should very rarely lose aggro.  I personally use the HO's to pull mobs and build agro before i call my guild to assist.  If i miss the 1st or 2nd HO i make them wait until the next one is up with only me attacking the mob(yes epic mobs as well) until i know i have enough that i my favourite wiz buddy, who goes DPS F'n wild every chance he gets, wont get aggro unless i want him to(shhhh  :-p  )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For all those who say we cant tank S#@&,  they dont know how WELL WE CAN, you just have to TRY =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are also great Main Assist's if need be.  Between the sheild bash, our Cry taunt, some HO's..  i can pull a mob off our other tank(s) and off tank them when needed..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you will only be as good as you want to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yunicski</DIV> <DIV>lv 60 Paladin on Kithicor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes we can hold aggro just fine, and i can hit 3400 mit and 40+ avoidance self buffed. But Guardians will still have an easy 1k mitigation over us. And if a guardian did the same thing you did when tanking (Waiting 30 seconds before dps goes crazy, he wouldnt lose aggro either)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well Mit isn't a class issue is it?  If equiped the same we should have the same mit as a guard.  I don't think the mit on armor is better just because a guard is wearing it, is it?  </P> <P> </P> <P>I have yet to see an imbued cobalt Chest peice  that has more Mit on it just beacuse the guy wearing it was a Guardian /shrug</P> <p>Message Edited by Majorminor on <span class=date_text>12-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:28 PM</span>

[Anzak]

The only advatange I see for Guards is they have a 30 second defense buff that has a recast of 2 minutes.  That helps them alot.  And they have Tower of Stone but that requires a tower shield and damages the shield in the process. <div></div>

[germanicus2112]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Theres some misconceptions on this board about Guardian abilities, what was posted was old info. Wall of Might no longer buffs defense, but rather boosts pure physical mitigation of caster. At adept3 its 770 physical mitigation boost. This stacks with the guardians commanding aura buff, which buffs for around 550ish physical mitigation. Additionally its incorrect that the guardian and pally defensive stance are similar. Guards dont get a boost to their wisdom as pally's do, but rather get a huge bonus to parry as well as defense (means higher avoidance vs a pally).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A pally acting as MT in a raid would benefit from Commanding aura, but not wall of might. Additionally, the guard cant transfer ac to the pally as the pally can for the guard, so thats 300+ mitigation right there. If the guard and pally were equivalent in gear, you would need an additional crusader in the MT group to get the pally to where the guard would be mitigation wise (not even considering lack of Wall of might), so thats one less spot for another buffer. This would mean having to sacrifice a healer archetype or singer/chanter or conjuror (an additional huge mit buff).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course this doesnt mean pally cant tank raids, they can, its just that many of the t6 epic encounters hit for a great deal of physical damage at a consistent rate, and guards have an edge in this department.</DIV>

[Dart]

Palys make fine MT' for everything our guild has done so far. Our Guild MT is a Paladen. BTW I wouldnt go requesting anything to boost amends, you will only draw attention to that ability and you dont want that... trust me, that is if you want to keep it at its current state /wink. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are tank tricks to work around some of the problems you mentioned, ask some seasoned MT's on the finer points of tanking epics. Guardians are not all that is being made up on this thread. Paly>Guard on agro (no matter how many groups of mobs) if Amends is used to its fullest potential. You see the biggest advantage you have with regards to agro is this, while you are being stuned, stifled, silence, with amends you have someone else building hate for you, no other class has that fantastic ability.  Trust me when I say, Palys make fine MT's. They really do.</DIV>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<P>anyone who goes around expounding that pallys aren't tanks are just insecure in their manhood</P> <P>i can out tank almost any zerk, can handle magic/divine/mental damage opponents better than any guardian and am on par with them for physical attack based mobs...only think guardians and zerks have over pallys are hate generation and well you can compensate for that</P>

[TheGreatStoney]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> germanicus2112 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Theres some misconceptions on this board about Guardian abilities, what was posted was old info. Wall of Might no longer buffs defense, but rather boosts pure physical mitigation of caster. At adept3 its 770 physical mitigation boost. This stacks with the guardians commanding aura buff, which buffs for around 550ish physical mitigation. Additionally its incorrect that the guardian and pally defensive stance are similar. Guards dont get a boost to their wisdom as pally's do, but rather get a huge bonus to parry as well as defense (means higher avoidance vs a pally).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A pally acting as MT in a raid would benefit from Commanding aura, but not wall of might. Additionally, the guard cant transfer ac to the pally as the pally can for the guard, so thats 300+ mitigation right there. If the guard and pally were equivalent in gear, you would need an additional crusader in the MT group to get the pally to where the guard would be mitigation wise (not even considering lack of Wall of might), so thats one less spot for another buffer. This would mean having to sacrifice a healer archetype or singer/chanter or conjuror (an additional huge mit buff).</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0033>Right there you point out our mitigation difference, which is fine for me i dont mind them being better suited for melee mobs. The problem i have is we dont get a significant bonus vs casters. 100 wisdom doesnt do much at all. A Guardian can switch out jewelry and easily get maxed out on the resists he needs, and still have a significant mitigation advantage over us. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course this doesnt mean pally cant tank raids, they can, its just that many of the t6 epic encounters hit for a great deal of physical damage at a consistent rate, and guards have an edge in this department.</DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff0033>With the way the legendary and fabled loot has been dropping. you can get jewlery with around 750+ resists on it. </FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff0033>Im just tossing out ideas for a our class that would help give us a role on raids as a tank.</FONT></P> <P>- <FONT color=#ff0033>Increase our max resists percent from 70% to 90%; That alone would make up for a mitigation loss.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0033>- Reduce the cost of our heals, and allow us to cast our self heals through stuns. (Mitigation is on 100% of the time, why cant our heals that are supposed to make up for our mitigation loss be used 100% of the time?)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0033>- Give us a ward that will absorb one magical attack from an enemy</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0033></FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Anzak]

In my guild we have a few level 60 guards and even when in the same group with the same buffs on us.  All but one guard has lower Mit than me and we are all in about equal gear.  Mine is a little better which is where the extra mit is coming from.  The one guard that is better has slightly better gear.  They have a 30 second mit buff with a 2 minute recast which gives them an edge there.  They also have Tower of Stone I think it is called that lets them completely block 3 attacks at the cost of 30% damage to their shield and it needs to be a tower shield.  So they have an edge in the damage department but with amends on the right person we have an edge in the agro department I think it evens out. <div></div>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzak wrote:<BR>In my guild we have a few level 60 guards and even when in the same group with the same buffs on us.  All but one guard has lower Mit than me and we are all in about equal gear.  Mine is a little better which is where the extra mit is coming from.  The one guard that is better has slightly better gear.  They have a 30 second mit buff with a 2 minute recast which gives them an edge there.  They also have Tower of Stone I think it is called that lets them completely block 3 attacks at the cost of 30% damage to their shield and it needs to be a tower shield.  So they have an edge in the damage department but with amends on the right person we have an edge in the agro department I think it evens out.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzak wrote:<BR>In my guild we have a few level 60 guards and even when in the same group with the same buffs on us.  All but one guard has lower Mit than me and we are all in about equal gear.  Mine is a little better which is where the extra mit is coming from.  The one guard that is better has slightly better gear.  They have a 30 second mit buff with a 2 minute recast which gives them an edge there.  They also have Tower of Stone I think it is called that lets them completely block 3 attacks at the cost of 30% damage to their shield and it needs to be a tower shield.  So they have an edge in the damage department but with amends on the right person we have an edge in the agro department I think it evens out.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Bah sorry for the dbl Quoted post, for some reason when I left click anyhwere on a post reply, I get IE error and closes the session, AKA I cannot edit my posts.</P> <P>Anyhow.....</P> <P>Hear what master Anzak says, he speaks the truth. And that 30 second buff is nice for mitigating the inital brunt of an encounter much like your wards would)</P> <DIV>In all Honesty with the right raid/group set up... Palys have a real nice edge over guards with regards to agro. Key being with amends someone is building hate while you are stunned stifled silenced, no other tank has this ability that I know (SK's?) so right there is a huge advantage. One major dissadvantage is if that amended person dies... then the paly has to reall work and warn the raid to pace DPS till the amended one is rezed.</DIV>

[Anzak]

Well it is not entirely true that we are the only class that can build agro when stunned/stiffled/silenced.  Guards can as well I don't know the exact details but they have a CA that lets them build agro everytime they are hit.  The difference is that amends is always on the guard needs to use his CA and has to deal with recast where we can let someone else do the work for us.  The thing with amends is that it is a double edged blade.  Not only are we getting hate build up but the person we have it on is reduced.  So if you have one person who tends to pull agro on a raid that person will no longer be pulling it since you are getting a large chunk of their hate. I still think Guards have a slight advantage over a long fight in the mit department just because they can buff up and not take damage for a bit which lets the healers get things under control.  All we can do it heal and ward which will hardly make up for the damage we are taking from a raid mob but it may buy the healers a second or 2 to get your health back up. Overall Guards and pallies are just about equal and it will really come down to the skill of the player so if your guild has a good pally then they should tank or if they have a good guard they shoudl tank or even rotate who tanks.  Also having them in the same group lets them work together well. <div></div>

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:So if you have one person who tends to pull agro on a raid that person will no longer be pulling it since you are getting a large chunk of their hate. <div></div><hr></blockquote>this is as much a curse as it is a blessing ... i'm thinking of being Mithris Agro'Sponge this week, since i spend alot of time in raids functioning basically as a hate-sink.</span><div></div>

[Anzak]

I guess I'm lucky there we currently only have one raid level pally so it is more important for me to be in the MT group for my buffs than hate soak for a DPS person.  While I do play that role from time to time not so much.  The problem with that role is that you have to be careful what you do because even a single taunt to complete an HO could get you agro and dead since the healers are not watching you. <div></div>

[germanicus2112]

<DIV>Guardians have a 'passive' aggro ability, Inflaming Defense. At master 1 it:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <FONT color=#ffffff>Roots Caster, When caster damaged has 50% chance to cast HTL, increasing threat by 444.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>It is a toggle spell. You dont have to recast it. You turn it on or off and lasts until cancelled. It does drain power when procing.</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>In most situations, this doesnt produce as much hate as amends does if properly set up. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>I think that the difference between pallys and guard is fairly significant regarding mitigating physical damage or even completely nullifying it (Commanding aura 30 second stackable 540 mit buff/ Wall of might 30 second stackable 770 mit buff/ Guardian Sphere which can completely absorb up to 5 streams of any damage type/ Tower of stone which completely absorbs up to 3 hits which are over 10% of guards total health). Tower of stone damages the guards tower shield, but this cost is negligible IMO if it saves a raid wipe. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </P> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[Dart]

<P>True HTL is a passive ability but... You have to be hit for it to proc. If you have any classes stunning the mob and interrupting it, it can reduce the effectiveness of HTL. So IMHO Amends>HTL all the way... Now granted on the flip side Guardians have more pure taunts to complimenet it. so you could be right, it could be a wash.... on paper that is. However in real worls scenarios, from me (walrock perspective) Paly > Guard for hate, no matter how many groups of mobs, (granted the person that has amends on them understands how to assist paly in generating agro). </P> <P> </P> <P>Lich is a good example I know i use it too often but I can keep ALL the mobs on the paly (chanter takes the shard mobs) and they can tank the whole thing with no agro problems, with a few tank tricks he can minimize the damage taken by all those mobs to compensate for any edge a guard has over paly with regards to mit/avoidance. On top of this I can mana pump the paly after each pow drain from the named.</P> <P> </P> <P>I cant wait for our Guardian to level to 60, I am very interested to see how he performs compatred to our current MT - paladin. Hell He might motivate me to play my guard again more, 52 now woot! </P> <P>haha hey I wanted a challenge so I play my guard when bored with warlock. Guardian Soloing? Snoorfest, groups I seem to do Ok, time will tell and reaching level 60 will provide a lot more insight for me into my first class of choice the guard...Only problem is Im the only walrock in our guild, so I will prolly remain as a finger waggler.</P>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<P>i have both a guardian and a pally and i find the guardian can generate more hate and keep hate easier than a pally across multiple unlinked groups...in addition to their raw taunts a lot of the CAs guardians have gen hate as well...pallys have 2 taunts, amends and rescue...that's it...i have to work my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off to keep agro since amends only targets 1 person....i rarely loose agro, but i have to work for it...when u have a group full of dps and 1 healer amends isn't gonna cut it neither is an encounter taunt if you have more than 1 unlinked encounter...i usually find myself flipping between encounter groups to get in a ae taunt if it's a long fight to make sure someone's pet, group ward, group heal, AOE etc doesn't steal the agro i have on unlinked groups...</P> <P> </P> <P>hands down tho i think pallys are now superior tanks, before LU 13 we sucked as MT compared to zerks and guards...</P>

[Anzak]

If everyone is assisting correctly then for Unlinked encounters Sigil and Conscrate are the way to go. <div></div>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

hehe, haven't hit 52 yet, soon i'm sure tho, but yeah those look like they'd be really nice for managing hate now i'm excited <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as an aside i just noticed this text under pally CAs on eq2players:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladin 54:</DIV> <DIV> Demonstration of Devotion:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> Wards the paladin's target, preventing them from taking damage.",,"Increases the <STRONG>berserker's</STRONG> offensive melee skills and grants a chance to attack all nearby enemies in an encounter with each melee attack, but at the cost of decreased defense and parry skill. This is the <STRONG>berserker's primary offensive stance</STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>/rofl</P><p>Message Edited by g0thiCiCecReaM on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:06 PM</span>

[Rr]

Having formerly played  paladin (now a dirge), I have had this discussion many times with my guildmates and what not. When you look at a comparison of skills between the paladin and guardian it comes down to this (and I think we can all agree): <ul> <li>Paladin's <i>in general</i> tank casters better.</li> </ul> <ul> <li>Guardian's tank phyiscal damage better than anyone else.</li> </ul> <ul> <li>Both classes are fairly similar in ability to hold agro, with a slight edge to the paladin in my opinion.</li> </ul> Noone disagrees that paladins make incredible group tanks. Most argue that they make better tanks in groups than guardians due to their versitality. The problem that paladins are having are with raids. They (formerly we) want to tank in raids. Many made their class thinking they would be able to do such. This will not happen in a well set up raid right now. That is because of one reason, the big epic mobs in Desert of Flames auto-attack hits for for an outrageously high amount, and the extra mitigation a guardian can naturally bring to himself from his skills makes all the difference. It's simple math, yes the other tanks (brawlers, crusaders) may take about 1-2k less for the skills the mob puts out, but the guardian is taking 500-1000 less damage per regular attack, which happens far more frequently than CA's/Spells. In a well set up raid, another class won't be MT until there is a mob who's auto-attack does something other than physical damage. None of this says paladins <b>can't</b> MT a raid, just that <i>typically</i>, the guardian will have an easier job of it because of what it allows in group construction. We may not like it, it may suck for paladins. We have to live with it. If you don't like it, /feedback every day, try to get something changed to allows paladins to feel more useful than as just a buffer in a group. I didn't make my paladin to be there to buff on raids, and I bet nor did most of you. Truth is, it affects a small portion of the community, the most dedicated probably, but a small fraction. Lope, 59 Dirge, formerly: Rrin, 54 Paladin iconoclast.iplat.net <div></div>

[thial]

giving the right group my paly can have 45XX mitigation 54.XX avoidene and  around 8500 hp vrs the guard in the right group can have 54XX mit 56 avo and almost 9 k hp this is at lvl 60 and we are about = with gear my mit is aruond 80 more than his but thast casue i got some better armor pieces <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />...all in all we each can tank the same mobs... with the comparison its not really who would be better its who is up for it 500 hp and 2% avo is not a big deal thats what heals/wards are for....so stop the pally should not mt guard should bs tanks are tanks end of story if ur having trouble tanking up ur gear and learn what ur skills do...me iv been playing a a pally since day 1 alote of changes have hapend but i would never trade my pally its my kind of play style course there are something to be improved like our vrs undead abbilities, there a joke but  thats for another forum <div></div>

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>thial wrote:...all in all we each can tank the same mobs... <div></div><hr></blockquote>im guessing, if you say this, you have never tried this comparison with a 65+x4 mob ...</span><div></div>

[Anzak]

I think some people are missing the point on Mit.  In the right group set up guard or pally can get up over 6K mit which btw is going to be pretty darn close if not over the 80% mit cap for any mob.  Just like with the right set up either can get over 5K in any resist without giving up much if any mit which is why there is really no advantage to caster vs melee mobs as a guard can get his resists up there to reach the 70% cap just as the Pally came.  The difference is that the pally has an easier time with caster resists because of our stance.  The real agruement on Pally vs guard is agro control and player skill.  I have seen guards to a horrible job and I have done better, but then turn around and watch a well trained guard do even better than I did. <div></div>

[germanicus2112]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzak wrote:<BR>I think some people are missing the point on Mit.  In the right group set up guard or pally can get up over 6K mit which btw is going to be pretty darn close if not over the 80% mit cap for any mob.    <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Afraid I disagree on this.<BR>Maybe im wrong, but I dont believe 6k mit is close to the 80% cap on  4x 64+ epics in DoF. </P> <DIV>Also, do you mean 6k sustained mitigation?  If so, how are you getting the pally to 6k? I find this incredibly difficult to believe unless your talking about a short term spike in mitigation via Porcupine or HO Hero's armor. If your talking about via a guards buffs, then the pally doesnt get anywhere near the mitigation over time as a guard does to himself for the reasons i explained in an earlier post (wall of might is self only/ need to have an additional crusader for mit transfer in group). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive been able to hit  5k sustained mitigation in a group and that was with the conjuror having m2 as well as the priest having m1 (my solo mit being around 3650ish standing around). What am I missing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the best possible fabled setup for t6 armor and jewelry (Ring of the djinn master, Bracelet of the Dead, Majdul quest reward, plus Mitigation buffing Armor ala Benthaf head protector, flared spaulders of ro, cuirass of the daywalker), your mit would be around 3900, maybe 4k solo based on personal buffs plus a translucent metallic hues. How are you getting an addition 2k in mitigation to the tank? 276 via master 2 Conjuror mitt buff, Crusader gift of armanent for around 400, 500 from Cleric mit buff. Assuming the tank has the best possible mitigation armor, wheres the other 800+ mit?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is MUCH easier to achieve sustained arcane resistances over time compared to physical mitigation. </DIV> <DIV>Sure you can spike to well over 6k, but its the average over time thats important against many of the harder epics in the expansion.</DIV><p>Message Edited by germanicus2112 on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:20 AM</span>

[Anzak]

I don't know how these people are getting 6K mit I have asked and none have answered but other pallies have reported 5 and 6K buffed Mit. As for 6K being at the 80% cap.  3800 at 60 is 60% mit.  Figure a 2% drop per level so at 67 you have 46% with 3800 mit.  So divide that out and you get 82.6 mit per percent so x 80 = 6608 Mit should be about 80% mit cap vs a level 67 mob.  Now that is assuming all your gear is legendary.  I have already done the math in the armorers section that shows the quality of your armor effects the mit % so 100 points with Legendary is less mit % than 100 points with fabled so to even get to 6K you are going to need to be in fabled that will bring that number down. As for guards being able to self buff like I have said for 30 seconds sure but  over all in the same group with equal gear we are just about equal. For tanks this game is about gear.  And to be 100% honest the tank with the better gear will win out everytime.  Maybe that is why guards are so upset because now any plate class can do just as well if they A) know how to play their class well B) have equal or better gear. <div></div>

[germanicus2112]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzak wrote:<BR>I don't know how these people are getting 6K mit I have asked and none have answered but other pallies have reported 5 and 6K buffed Mit.<BR><BR>As for 6K being at the 80% cap.  3800 at 60 is 60% mit.  Figure a 2% drop per level so at 67 you have 46% with 3800 mit.  So divide that out and you get 82.6 mit per percent so x 80 = 6608 Mit should be about 80% mit cap vs a level 67 mob.  Now that is assuming all your gear is legendary.  I have already done the math in the armorers section that shows the quality of your armor effects the mit % so 100 points with Legendary is less mit % than 100 points with fabled so to even get to 6K you are going to need to be in fabled that will bring that number down.<BR><BR>As for guards being able to self buff like I have said for 30 seconds sure but  over all in the same group with equal gear we are just about equal.<BR><BR>For tanks this game is about gear.  And to be 100% honest the tank with the better gear will win out everytime.  Maybe that is why guards are so upset because now any plate class can do just as well if they A) know how to play their class well B) have equal or better gear.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why are you assuming 2% drop per level? Where is this documented? I dont think that this is the case. People complain how orange mobs ignore mitigation, I dont believe this is the case, its just the cap and scaling is much more pronounced than say the 2% you used in your calculations. </P> <P>Your saying that 3000 mit based off of legendary armor is actually less effective that 3000 mit based off of fabled armor? Where do you get that from? Could you link me to where that comes from?</P> <P> </P> <P>From my experience then, there seemed to be a difference between having 6k mit and well over 7k on Sunchild. Obviously this could be due to variation in hits, and the only way for us to know is if SOE tells us, or we parse this over several hundred encounters under controlled conditions. </P> <P>Unless they are wearing a piece of armor that boosts mitigation by say 500 on top of its normal fabled mitigation, or im completely missing a class that buffs mit, I dont believe that any tank in this game is sitting at 6k with standing buffs (non short term buffs like porcupine/wall of might/commanding aura or the rare HO Heros Armor). 5k is easily attainable, 6k i want to see to believe. <BR></P>

[Rochir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzak wrote:<BR>I don't know how these people are getting 6K mit I have asked and none have answered but other pallies have reported 5 and 6K buffed Mit.<BR><BR>As for 6K being at the 80% cap.  3800 at 60 is 60% mit.  Figure a 2% drop per level so at 67 you have 46% with 3800 mit.  So divide that out and you get 82.6 mit per percent so x 80 = 6608 Mit should be about 80% mit cap vs a level 67 mob.  Now that is assuming all your gear is legendary.  I have already done the math in the armorers section that shows the quality of your armor effects the mit % so 100 points with Legendary is less mit % than 100 points with fabled so to even get to 6K you are going to need to be in fabled that will bring that number down.<BR><BR>As for guards being able to self buff like I have said for 30 seconds sure but  over all in the same group with equal gear we are just about equal.<BR><BR>For tanks this game is about gear.  And to be 100% honest the tank with the better gear will win out everytime.  Maybe that is why guards are so upset because now any plate class can do just as well if they A) know how to play their class well B) have equal or better gear.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gear is the starting point.  Buffs, wards, healing, teamwork and tactics are the keys in raids.

[Anzak]

I have been in full cobalt since level 53.  Every level my mit % goes down 1.5 to 2% So I use 2% as the max decline. Next as for the fabled vs legendary I did some playing around with a bunch of T5 and lower gear.  What happened was this.  As you went up in teir the % per mit point went up so 112 at T2 was only 1% yet 88 at T5 was 5% on top of that there was a difference in the % based on type so cloth armor with 88 was 5% but plate with 88 was 6%  the final part was that common armor was something like 5% per 100 yet legendary was 6% per 100.  I don't have the exact numbers any more there is a post in the armorers section that shows all the items I uses and the exact mit to percent break down.  But the basics of it are Type, Level, Quality all effect how well your armor works.  There is plenty of data supporting that raw mitigation does not tell the whole story including things like people in full T5 fabled with higher raw mit that people in full T6 legandary yet the T6 Legendary has higher mit % The reason I discount Guards short term buffs from these number is because plan and simple that is part of their tanking bag of tricks.  Guess what I have a bag of tricks as well and it has wards and heals and a few other little nice things in there.  Where a guard might use a temp mit buff to pull a hard hitting mob so he can live till the healers can get to him.  I might cast a ward or heal or maybe even use Divine Favor to stay up for that extra hit or 2. Yes I think over all Guards do have an advantage but not enough to flat out say Pallies can not tank the same mob. <div></div>

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote: The reason I discount Guards short term buffs from these number is because plan and simple that is part of their tanking bag of tricks.  Guess what I have a bag of tricks as well and it has wards and heals and a few other little nice things in there.  Where a guard might use a temp mit buff to pull a hard hitting mob so he can live till the healers can get to him.  <b>I might cast a ward or heal or maybe even use Divine Favor to stay up for that extra hit or 2.</b> Yes I think over all Guards do have an advantage but not enough to flat out say Pallies can not tank the same mob. <div></div><hr></blockquote>well ... some of the problem is many of you may not have seen the mobs that some of us are talking about.  there are mobs out there that will hit for 3k+ autoattack, not as spike damage, but CONSISTANTLY.  at that point MIT > ALL.  if you think a ward or heal is going to have the same effect as say ... ignoring 3 3k+ hits, i want to know where your buying your spells from, cause i want them!</span><div></div>

[Anzak]

No I have not seen the mobs you are talking about but when an equally equipped Guard can get 2 shotted by a mob and I can stand toe to toe with I don't see how there will be any difference at higher levels.  When my HP and Mit are equal or greater than the guard's I see no reason that I should not be able to tank the mob as well or better than the guard. <div></div>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<DIV>i dunno in a raid if the guardian is the same lvl or higher than me and the mobs aren't magic based with their attacks i would much rather the guardian tank since my buffs would be more useful to him and a guard can take hits better than a pally usually - group i would rather tank regardless, of course unless i know the guard can do it better for the situation <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Rr]

The reasons have been detailed out. The paladin spells are very nice and can help in a tight situation, the straw on the camel's back so to speak. But a ward for less than 1k hp vs. an ability to absorb 3 hits at 3k+ is a difference of 8,000 hit points. Meaning the difference between the tank dieing on the pull and living. Succesful raid vs. dead raid. If you tanked something that a paladin failed at was probably for a couple reasons. 1. You play your class well. 2. He dosen't play it well. 3. You had better gear. 4. You had more updgraded spells. 5. Different group construction. And I'm sure a plethora of other factors could have been involved, I wasn't there, I don't know. I'm all for pallies tanking, I used to love my paladin. I wanted him to be able to raid tank, but our guild has such an abundance of tanks, it was redundant, so I played the dirge instead. Pallies can do it, it's just not as easy for them. Lope, 59 Dirge Rrin, 54 Paladin iconoclast.iplat.net <div></div>

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rrin wrote: If you tanked something that a <b>guardian</b> failed at was probably for a couple reasons. 1. You play your class well. 2. He dosen't play it well. 3. You had better gear. 4. You had more updgraded spells. 5. Different group construction. <hr></blockquote>think there was a typo in there.  i agree ... Anzak statement "if HP and Mit are equal, then" kinda shows this is true.  since crusaders get less hp than warriors do, if you find a warrior with the hp as you, that means your comparing your self to someone who has WORSE gear/upgrades.  the real question should be if a guard and pally have the same quality gear/upgrades, which will tank better.</span><div></div>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> djhbeek wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rrin wrote:<BR><BR>If you tanked something that a <B>guardian</B> failed at was probably for a couple reasons.<BR><BR>1. You play your class well.<BR>2. He dosen't play it well.<BR>3. You had better gear.<BR>4. You had more updgraded spells.<BR>5. Different group construction.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>think there was a typo in there.  i agree ... Anzak statement "if HP and Mit are equal, then" kinda shows this is true.  since crusaders get less hp than warriors do, if you find a warrior with the hp as you, that means your comparing your self to someone who has WORSE gear/upgrades.  the real question should be if a guard and pally have the same quality gear/upgrades, which will tank better.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>depends on the mob...i've seen guardians get stomped by the same mobs that didn't hurt me as bad simply b/c of the type of attack that stomped them...pallys can definitly tank a raid, but sometimes the buffs you have to offer are more beneficial to the guardian under certain conditions...

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>g0thiCiCecReaM wrote: <blockquote> <hr> djhbeek wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Rrin wrote:If you tanked something that a <b>guardian</b> failed at was probably for a couple reasons.1. You play your class well.2. He dosen't play it well.3. You had better gear.4. You had more updgraded spells.5. Different group construction. <hr> </blockquote>think there was a typo in there.  i agree ... Anzak statement "if HP and Mit are equal, then" kinda shows this is true.  since crusaders get less hp than warriors do, if you find a warrior with the hp as you, that means your comparing your self to someone who has WORSE gear/upgrades.  the real question should be if a guard and pally have the same quality gear/upgrades, which will tank better.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>depends on the mob...i've seen guardians get stomped by the same mobs that didn't hurt me as bad simply b/c of the type of attack that stomped them...pallys can definitly tank a raid, but sometimes the buffs you have to offer are more beneficial to the guardian under certain conditions... <div></div><hr></blockquote>i would say at levels 1-58 or so, that is true, and maybe even some yellow encounters at 59-60.  the cap being what it is, i really don't see any 65+ mob that could be tanked better by a pally.  i originally posted that a pally is a real tank, and can tank a 55x2 or so just fine, and that this is mostly a misconception that hasn't gone away since LU13.  then people started saying that a pally can tank any mob in the game, often better, and i've been trying to point out that this just isn't true in the end-game where the real key is surviving and/or avoiding huge amounts of autoattack damage. </span><div></div>

[Rr]

<div></div><span><font color="#ffff00">g0thiCiCecReaM wrote:</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"></font><blockquote><hr><font color="#ffff00">djhbeek wrote:</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00"><span></span></font><blockquote><hr>Rrin wrote:If you tanked something that a <b>guardian</b> failed at was probably for a couple reasons.1. You play your class well.2. He dosen't play it well.3. You had better gear.4. You had more updgraded spells.5. Different group construction.<hr></blockquote>think there was a typo in there.  i agree ... Anzak statement "if HP and Mit are equal, then" kinda shows this is true.  since crusaders get less hp than warriors do, if you find a warrior with the hp as you, that means your comparing your self to someone who has WORSE gear/upgrades.  the real question should be if a guard and pally have the same quality gear/upgrades, which will tank better.<font color="#ffff00"></font><hr></blockquote><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">depends on the mob...i've seen guardians get stomped by the same mobs that didn't hurt me as bad simply b/c of the type of attack that stomped them...pallys can definitly tank a raid, but <font color="#66ff00">sometimes</font> the buffs you have to offer are more beneficial to the guardian under <font color="#66ff00">certain</font> conditions...</font>Hmmmm, this statement is true when written like this:</span><span><font color="#ffff00">"...pallys can definitly tank a raid, but <font color="#66ff00">USUALLY</font> the buffs you have to offer are more beneficial to the guardian under <font color="#66ff00">THE VAST MAJORITY OF</font> conditions..."</font></span><span>Voila, and we have a winner!Lope, 59 DirgeRrin, 54 Paladiniconoclast.iplat.net</span><span><font color="#ffff00"></font></span><div></div>

[Anzak]

<span><blockquote><hr>djhbeek wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>g0thiCiCecReaM wrote: <blockquote> <hr> djhbeek wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Rrin wrote:If you tanked something that a <b>guardian</b> failed at was probably for a couple reasons.1. You play your class well.2. He dosen't play it well.3. You had better gear.4. You had more updgraded spells.5. Different group construction. <hr> </blockquote>think there was a typo in there.  i agree ... Anzak statement "if HP and Mit are equal, then" kinda shows this is true.  since crusaders get less hp than warriors do, if you find a warrior with the hp as you, that means your comparing your self to someone who has WORSE gear/upgrades.  the real question should be if a guard and pally have the same quality gear/upgrades, which will tank better.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>depends on the mob...i've seen guardians get stomped by the same mobs that didn't hurt me as bad simply b/c of the type of attack that stomped them...pallys can definitly tank a raid, but sometimes the buffs you have to offer are more beneficial to the guardian under certain conditions... <div></div><hr></blockquote>i would say at levels 1-58 or so, that is true, and maybe even some yellow encounters at 59-60.  the cap being what it is, i really don't see any 65+ mob that could be tanked better by a pally.  i originally posted that a pally is a real tank, and can tank a 55x2 or so just fine, and that this is mostly a misconception that hasn't gone away since LU13.  then people started saying that a pally can tank any mob in the game, often better, and i've been trying to point out that this just isn't true in the end-game where the real key is surviving and/or avoiding huge amounts of autoattack damage. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote> Ok there is the problem.  If you are saying the a pally can't tank end game mobs then there is something wrong with the system.  Plan and simple any tank should be able to tank any mob in the game give the correct gear and the correct raid set up.  Now there maybe times when one is favored over the other though with Resistance capping the way it is I don't see that.  The point is that plan and simple if there is a mob that a pally in equal gear can not tank then something is broken and needs to be fix.</span><div></div>

[Rr]

<span><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00"> Ok there is the problem.  If you are saying the a pally can't tank end game mobs then there is something wrong with the system.  Plan and simple any tank should be able to tank any mob in the game give the correct gear and the correct raid set up.  Now there maybe times when one is favored over the other though with Resistance capping the way it is I don't see that.  The point is that plan and simple if there is a mob that a pally in equal gear can not tank then something is broken and needs to be fix.</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font> I'm confused why this is. Not all tanks are equal. They just aren't. Paladins give up some of their ability to tank the insane high end mobs that are not within their specialty to be more adaptive to non-raiding situations and for the support they offer. A guardian dosen't have the same flexability that a paladin has, nor does he bring the support benefits that crusaders do to the table. A guardian is niche class as I heard someone say once. Best raid tanks in game. Congratulations, that's what their good at. If that's what you want to do, play a guardian. As a paladin you get to be diverse and multi-faceted, and enjoy the benefits that brings along. This game is about choosing what you want to do, and giving up different areas to do so. You can't get to heal, ward, rez, dps, tank, buff, AND get to be on equal ground with a class that dosen't get five-sixths of that. It just would not be fair, and would bring imbalance to the game. Lope, 59 Dirge Rrin, 54 Paladin </span><div></div>

[Anzak]

I did not roll a pally to be a buff bot or to play second fiddle.  I have no problem with guards being the best raid tank.  The problem I have is saying that no other class can do it.  If that is truly the case then the game is broken.  If you have to have a guard on the front lines to win a raid something is not right.  Sure let it be a bit easier if you have a guard I have not problem with that.  I rolled a pally to be a tank who had some flexability.  I love the concept of a Holy Knight going toe to toe with epic dragons.  That is why I rolled a pally, not to give buffs and heals to the guard. <div></div>

[germanicus2112]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rrin wrote:<BR><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Ok there is the problem.  If you are saying the a pally can't tank end game mobs then there is something wrong with the system.  Plan and simple any tank should be able to tank any mob in the game give the correct gear and the correct raid set up.  Now there maybe times when one is favored over the other though with Resistance capping the way it is I don't see that.  The point is that plan and simple if there is a mob that a pally in equal gear can not tank then something is broken and needs to be fix.</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><BR>I'm confused why this is. Not all tanks are equal. They just aren't. Paladins give up some of their ability to tank the insane high end mobs that are not within their specialty to be more adaptive to non-raiding situations and for the support they offer. A guardian dosen't have the same flexability that a paladin has, nor does he bring the support benefits that crusaders do to the table.<BR><BR>A guardian is niche class as I heard someone say once. Best raid tanks in game. Congratulations, that's what their good at. If that's what you want to do, play a guardian. As a paladin you get to be diverse and multi-faceted, and enjoy the benefits that brings along. <BR><BR>This game is about choosing what you want to do, and giving up different areas to do so. You can't get to heal, ward, rez, dps, tank, buff, AND get to be on equal ground with a class that dosen't get five-sixths of that. It just would not be fair, and would bring imbalance to the game.<BR><BR>Lope, 59 Dirge<BR>Rrin, 54 Paladin<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Aye <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Guards are extremely limited in game right now. The way guards are currently:</P> <P>bottom of all melee classes regarding DPS, lacking of non-epic group utility, have outrageous power consumption- </P> <P>they have very little to offer single groups. Guards are completely reliant on others for DPS and healing, and are by far the worst solo class in the game. They should be, thats where they lie on the spectrum. However due to current game mechanics there is little to no incentive to go after content that lets them shine until you get to level 60. So basically guards are the worst tank choice for levels 1-59. In the past there was value in fighting much tougher (higher relative level) content in single groups from an XP perspective. This seems to no longer be the case. As such, its much more efficient to fight mobs closer to the level of the group and go with a tank that provides better dps/utility/efficiency. I would despise levelling up a guardian the way the game is now. Theres basically no demand for them due to all the combat changes.  </P> <P>Guards are cumbersome, power hogs, and their abilities only really shine against content much higher in level. If you 'balance' paladins to give them those same abilities, then the paladin is simply a guardian plus the superior dps, utility, heals, wards, and amends. That would be pretty stupid. The game has already strayed quite a bit from the original vision of what guards were meant to be. Initially, they were the only class able to wear vanguard armor. They have also essentially killed the difference between a tower shield and kite (equivalent shield factor - huh? ever held a real tower shield?) this was class defining for guards and zerks and is kaput. </P><p>Message Edited by germanicus2112 on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:03 AM</span>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anzak wrote:<BR>  That is why I rolled a pally, not to give buffs and heals to the guard.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>but sometimes that's the best strategy....</P> <P> </P> <P>admittedly i have not gone after the endgame mobs yet, pretty close and i won't dispute that i'm sure in a lot of cases it would be better to have a guardian tank...not absolutely necessary i'm sure, but probably the better solution in some or most cases...like i  said i don't mind backing up the guardian b/c that's the best method in some circumstances, he just better do his job well or i'm taking over  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Shade Slayer]

<DIV>I'm a 59 paladin.I just tanked perdition last night..and general akabar.We only had 1 group.General was a wuss.Perdition went a little harder but we took him..killed some sha`ir too.To the original poster,what you say would balance the class..as in amends being a group buff..I hope they NEVER do that.You want things way too easy.Invest in good gear,learn how to balance and use abilities.Know who to put amends on(high dps)...use rescue and sigil....taunt how much every you have to.A paladin can be a very formidable tank.As for prayer of consecration,I get use out of it.I like being able to be the life saver for a group in a tight fight.Learn the class.</DIV>

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shade Slayer wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm a 59 paladin.I just tanked perdition last night..and general akabar.We only had 1 group.General was a wuss.Perdition went a little harder but we took him..killed some sha`ir too.To the original poster,what you say would balance the class..as in amends being a group buff..I hope they NEVER do that.You want things way too easy.<STRONG><U>Invest in good gear,learn how to balance and use abilities</U></STRONG>.Know who to put amends on(high dps)...use rescue and sigil....taunt how much every you have to.A paladin can be a very formidable tank.As for prayer of consecration,I get use out of it.I like being able to be the life saver for a group in a tight fight.Learn the class.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>/agree<BR>it does depend a lot on how you play the class, i usually can tank the hell out of anything and rarely loose a group/raid member...if your class lacks lacks the ability of another find a way to compensate <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Wil81115]

<P>stoney said..</P> <P>Yes we can hold aggro just fine, and i can hit 3400 mit and 40+ avoidance self buffed. But Guardians will still have an easy 1k mitigation over us. And if a guardian did the same thing you did when tanking (Waiting 30 seconds before dps goes crazy, he wouldnt lose aggro either)<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>hey rock for brains.  did you even read the whole post? or the tread title for that matter?</P><p>Message Edited by Wil81115 on <span class=date_text>12-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:19 AM</span>

[Violat0r]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0033>I believe conjurers have a ton of AOE spells, and because of that, they dont get to use them alot on raids due to Mezzing and other enouncters in the area. (Silent CIty).  And they are usually spending alot of time in raids passing out Shards,</FONT></U></STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sadly you have terminally undermined your entire post by proving that you know very little about other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>much Conj AOE does not affect mezzed targets, conjurers have mit buffs as well as resist buffs, they have single target group only aggro holding procs, shards are 3 charges so this is settled before the raid even starts. Any conj using PBAOE (out of encounter aoe) in heavily populated areas is unlikely to even be allowed to raid let alone participate in such a location.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could go on but frankly I dont need to</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conjurers are the staple of any well balanced raid group with the exception of potentially being swapped out for orther caster types for very specific mob/damage types e.g poison/noxious. </DIV>

[TooSwi]

Conjurors are insane for DPS.  If you Conj isn't parsing 1500+ on each encounter he needs to work on playing his class. <div></div>