DEVOUT ESSENCE = USELESS

[Nickthegr]

<DIV>Is it just me, or is this "spell" horrid? I cast, I get an essence, which I never use, due to the power consumption. After playing for a while, I look in my bags, and, lo and behold, I have 200 or so of them, which I promptly delete to make room for ANYTHING else, as whatever I replace it with will have some use in game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I once tried to sell them, at 1c each, no one bought them, and I don't blame them. Whats the point of these things? If the recast timer was quicker, and they didn't consume SO much power, then I could see it, but as it stands, I've cleared my hotbar. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the (non-existent) ranged slot debate, someone posted that they could be used as ammo for the weapon we don't have. Thats a great idea, and very creative...but the coding... enough said. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To close, I hate the devout essences, rant over... </DIV>

[robusticus]

<P>And yet, the lower level spell, penitent essences... I actually ran out of those before the upgrade to devout and had to buy a few for 50 silver or so each...</P> <P>I recently joined a new guild and asked the leader if I could fill up the guild bank with my extra 5000 or so essences I'm hanging on to because I know there will some day be a use for them.  I didn't get a response.</P> <P>Yah, that would be cool, lobbing flaming essences at range... or maybe they could at least make them candy food - out of combat health regen.  Maybe we could trade 10 of em for 1 giddy goblin lotto ticket?  How about Court of Truth faction points?  SOMETHING, ANYTHING</P> <P>But hey, lets all look at the very bright side of things, we are getting a veteran reward 12 slot bag - that'll hold a whopping 600 of those suckers.</P>

[djhbeek]

well ... it's a huge power cost for a huge heal ... i was looking at my hotbar and Ardent Sacrament heals for 6.5 hp/mana where Pious Aid heals for about 5 hp/mana.  So for me its actually more efficient ... and i haven't even upgraded Sacrament from  Adept I yet, and have Master I.  The cast time is a little long, but i wouldnt say the spell is useless ... i just destroy the extras at the end of every night.  better than running out of them really ... <div></div>

[Anzak]

There are 2 issues here. 1) Since the spell needs a reagent then the mana cost should be lower.  I think with LU13 they wanted to bring the power more inline with other heals but left the reagent. 2) Long recast time makes it more of a bonus LH if you still have the power for it.  I normally use it early in a fight before the healers have a chance to get me stable.  Also because there is a 5% chance to create a reagent when you get hit in 5 minute recast time you will create many more reagents than you can use. The power cost should be reduced because of the use of a reagent as it is right now the power is right for the recast time if it had no reagent.  So the options here are remove the reagent or reduce the power cost. For the second one assuming the reagent stays there are two solutions here as well.  Lower the chance for a reagent or lower the recast time.  Basically because the reagent is summoned when you get hit it should be that you have to think about using this big heal because you can cast it more often than the reagent can be created.  The point of a reagent is to add a limiting factor which is not the case here. <div></div>

[Cinnag]

<FONT color=#ffff00>I could be wrong, but the times I've used this heal, it has never been interrupted or fizzled.  This may have been just a crazy run of luck, but although the cast time isn't that great, I've used it as a guaranteed heal without having to use LoH.</FONT>

[wowmakeitst]

<DIV>It gets interrupted plenty for me. I really dont understand this spell. Always try to save it for when the stuff hits the fan but when that happens its easier to just LoH....Although it has saved me on more then one occasion with nice heal after the LoH or something along those lines...I bet all we get, probably 6 months down the line is less chance to proc them....</DIV>

[Kale]

<span><blockquote><hr>wowmakeitstop wrote:<div>Always try to save it for when the stuff hits the fan but when that happens its easier to just LoH....Although it has saved me on more then one occasion with nice heal after the LoH or something along those lines...I bet all we get, probably 6 months down the line is less chance to proc them....</div><hr></blockquote> I love the spell. To me, it's a very <i>situational</i> spell. It's a great self-heal for when something goes wrong at the beginning of a fight, and it's also a nice spell during a long epic tank fight if a healer gets lag, or fizzles, etc. I use it soloing quite a bit as well. It's a great spell when you get unexpected adds. It's really nice to be able to heal yourself for a large chunk, then rez someone in the group, and get back on your collective feet and <i>still</i> have LoH in your pocket. I think MMO's in general, and EQ2 specifically, could use a lot more situational spells and combat arts. To me, that's what makes the game really interesting. Yeah, I'm going to use Refusal of Grace every time it's up - but that's kinda of boring. It's button mashing. What's really fun us having a bunch of spells in your back pocket that you don't use a lot, and when the right moment hits you whip that sucker out and save the day. That's what combat gets fun. It also creates a situation where you can tell the really good players from the really bad ones. The good players know when to make use of certain spells. The bad ones don't. </span><div></div>

[Anzak]

Prayer of conviction is one of our choices for level 44 Master II spell at master II it heals for more (solo since you get full effect there)  than adept I has no reagent uses less mana and had a quicker recast. Pious Aid at equal level heals for almost as much and cost less mana no reagent and quicker recast. Display of Devotion with a good mitigation score it much more effective for in soloing instances with a great mana ratio as well. As I said remove the reagent there is no reason for it now that the spell has a mana cost on par with the amount of the heal and recast.  Actually the recast is still a bit high for the mana cost. As for the summoning of Reagents it is too often I actually tend not to use my HP buff for the simple fact that a single fight can generate a full stack of them.  I was tanking one hard mob so I popped that up for the extra HP and after the fight found I had gained 25 reagents compaired to the 2 times I could have cast through the course of the fight.  So I have a net gain of 23 items to waste pack space. Now I will say this I love the concept.  You have a buff that protects you and as a result of trusting in your buff (faith) you are rewarded with an essence that can be used to call upon greater magic to heal you in times of trouble.  From a role playing stand point that is one of the best spell combos I have seen in a long time.  But from a functional stand point it is not very good. Personally I think the best way this combo could be done is to leave the essence as it is.  Take the heal and set the recast to 5 seconds set power to something insanely small like it was say 25.  Set the heal value to just below Pious Aid.  The idea is that it could be chain cast in a bind but the down side is that it would burn essences very quickly to do so.  The reason this won't happen is simple that it would be too easy to store up 10 or so stacks of essences and basically just chain heal when you need to and never have to worry about HP. Another solution is to make the essences no rent.  This will clear them when you log but at the same time you can build them up for a big fight that you might need them for. <div></div>

[Kale]

<span><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote: Personally I think the best way this combo could be done is to leave the essence as it is.  Take the heal and set the recast to 5 seconds set power to something insanely small like it was say 25.  Set the heal value to just below Pious Aid.  The idea is that it could be chain cast in a bind but the down side is that it would burn essences very quickly to do so. <hr></blockquote> Ugh... I disagree. Chain casting? Please, don't go there. That's what is great about the spell. Big heal. No chain casting necessary. Situational use, so we can get back to healing other party members, rezzing, bashing/stunning mobs, etc. The spell is fine. I think you guys just don't understand how to use it. </span><div></div>

[Anzak]

The spell was fine.  Pre-combat changes it was a low power long recast big heal with a reagent.  That was good.  Post Combat changes it got nerfed in the amount it heals the power is up 5x but the recast and the reagent are still there.  It has a long cast time which means more chance for interrupt.  It can't be cast on the run so useless for an esacpe spell (which is mostly what I use LoH for now).  It is only a self heal which limits its uses even more.  While the heal ratio is good over the length of a battle Pious Aid will be more useful as well Prayer of Conviction.  Our ward almost completely removes the need for it because of the nice power to ward ratio.  Then you drop on it that the whole summoning of reagents and wasting pack space unless we go in and delete stacks of them every 30 minutes or so because we can not even cast the spell that uses them as quickly as they are created. Personally I would hate to see it become a chain cast spell.  But the fact of the matter is that the reagent should be the limiting factor on it rather than all the other normal spell limits.  But since the reagents are like water there is no point to them.  Maybe just remove them from the spell and stop them from being summoned.  While this loses some of the roleplaying aspects of the design it does solve the problem at hand.  Though even without the reagent it still becomes a limited use spell. I Think the intial intension of the spell was good but it has been warped in the name of balance and now the spell is basically useless.  (Well extremely limited) <div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>No disrespect to you Kalera, but I have to disagree on the fact that the sacrement line of spells are working as intended.  Before the update our casting time was less and the power cost to this spell made it very attractive to our single target aid spells.  The main limiting factors was the 5 min recast and the fact it is self only heal.  After the update we have all of the restrictions but add to it a much larger power cost with a extra sec of casting time.  I say Halve the power cost and put the casting time at 2 secs as the same as the aid line of spells.  This cant be argued as being a imbalance change as the 5 min restriction and need of a essence is still there, plus have you guys seen the lower power cost of our brother shadow knights with their similar carress line?  Just place the power cost in half and 2 sec casting time with 5 min recast requireing essence would make this spell much more used than it is now.</DIV>

[Kale]

<span><blockquote><hr>OrcSlayer96 wrote:<div><b>No disrespect to you Kalera</b>, but I have to disagree on the fact that the sacrement line of spells are working as intended.  Before the update our casting time was less and the power cost to this spell made it very attractive to our single target aid spells.  The main limiting factors was the 5 min recast and the fact it is self only heal.  After the update we have all of the restrictions but add to it a much larger power cost with a extra sec of casting time.  I say Halve the power cost and put the casting time at 2 secs as the same as the aid line of spells.  This cant be argued as being a imbalance change as the 5 min restriction and need of a essence is still there, plus have you guys seen the lower power cost of our brother shadow knights with their similar carress line?  Just place the power cost in half and 2 sec casting time with 5 min recast requireing essence would make this spell much more used than it is now.</div><hr></blockquote> <b>None taken!</b> I think the recast time is the single biggest limiting factor of the spell. To me, that, along with the self-only aspect, is what makes it situational. I agree with you on the casting time and power cost. If the spell can only be used once every five minutes, requires a regeant, and is self-only, then I see no reason why we can't put it on a faster casting time and require less power. the <i>restrictions</i> that cause the spell to be <i>situational</i> will still be in place. But with an increased casting time and lower power requirement, we'll actually <i>use</i> it more often in those situations, instead of trying to use something else. A situational spell should be the <i>best</i> spell for that situation. If you're in a bind and need a HP boost to yourself, you've got the essense and the recast timer is fresh and ready, then the best spell for that situation should be Devout Aid. But if the casting time and power cost are prohibiting people from using it that way, then those need to be fixed. </span><div></div>

[Anzak]

I would argue no power cost if the essence and recast stay.  Remove the essence and reduce it to half power cost that would be a balanced change. I think the point of this thread is more about the essences than the heal that goes with them.  reagents are suppose to be used a limit.  Make the caster think twice about casting the spell because they have to expend a reagent.  CoH uses a pearl.  Now the caster has to balance if it is worth the cost of the pearl to CoH someone.  More often than not it is the case but at that same time they are not going to want to CoH an entire raid every to the target every day because the cost would get too high.  In our case we have a reagent that we have to delete to stop from filling our packs for a spell that has such limited use that a single stack is able to last months (and yes I have had the same stack for 3 months now and not summoned anymore)  This is not a limit this is an annoyance. <div></div>

[Kale]

<span><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:I would argue no power cost if the essence and recast stay.  Remove the essence and reduce it to half power cost that would be a balanced change. I think the point of this thread is more about the essences than the heal that goes with them.  reagents are suppose to be used a limit.  Make the caster think twice about casting the spell because they have to expend a reagent.  CoH uses a pearl.  Now the caster has to balance if it is worth the cost of the pearl to CoH someone.  More often than not it is the case but at that same time they are not going to want to CoH an entire raid every to the target every day because the cost would get too high.  In our case we have a reagent that we have to delete to stop from filling our packs for a spell that has such limited use that a single stack is able to last months (and yes I have had the same stack for 3 months now and not summoned anymore)  This is not a limit this is an annoyance. <div></div><hr></blockquote> And it's because the Devout spell has a 5% chance to summon the Essense, and the Penitent line only has a 1% chance. I am not sure why the Devout line is not 1% like the Penitent line. It would certainly make it more managable in the inventory window. </span><div></div>

[CycoDelic]

<P>Very situational</P> <P> </P> <P>I tend to only use it when I am soloing and then towards the front end of a battle if the siuation turns south quickly to save the istant heal for low power situations. Also, I will ward before entering that time tunnel knows as the casting time to try and limit any interuptions.</P> <p>Message Edited by CycoDelic on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:46 AM</span>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>Hmm.. thanks Kalera on the percentage difference between penitent and devout, i trust ardent is the same at 5% as devout is.  the 1% proc on penitent was too little and the 5% seems to be too much.  Maybe a 2% proc on the the blessing line would be better and have the power cost of the sacrament line more inline to our shadowknight brothers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quick comparison devout sacrament power cost 159 and requires devout essence on a 5 min timer</DIV> <DIV>Shadowknight cursed sacrament power cost 56 and requires tainted essence on a 30 sec timer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Irregardless that one is a large heal and the other is a 30 sec limited damage pet they both run on the same game mechanics of having a line of spells that proc the essences and another line that uses the essences plus they are the same levels of attainment.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With looking at that i say paladins shouls have the 2% proc like the shadowknights do and have the power cost similar also.  The main restriction for us should be recast time and requiring a essence not a large power requirement.  Plus make the casting time at 2 sec and i imagine this spell will be more inline than it is currently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By no mean am i asking for nerfs to shadowknights or our recast timer shortened just showing a example on power cost and proc percentage on their line to ours.  Any feedback from devs would be most welcome...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[trout]

<P>Id like it to proc at 2% instaed of 5% and have the cast time shortend to 2 secs. </P> <P>Id prefer to keep it a big heal on a long recast rather than a smaller heal on a shorter recast. </P> <P>If we're gonna wish for stuff Id love to be able to cast this on the run also.</P>

[Nickthegr]

<DIV>Casting on the run - I agree. I started this post as I feel that the heal itself is... good, but the collection/amount of essences is ridiculous. The amount of power it consumes as well as the ratio of heal I get just isn't worth it to me - I know we have a bigger power pool since LU15, but it still seems to go quickly...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd just like to see them do something else with it - shorten it up with less power drain - that would be perfect. I'm rambling, and the title I guees is a /rant. Oh well, I'll see waht 16 gives us when I get home. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Anzak]

Atleast half the power maybe even 1/4 of the power. Leave the recast.  I actually don't have a problem with this. Shorten cast time to 1 or 2 second quick enough to make it hard to interrupt. Don't make it castable on the run.  This is a spell after all and you need to focus to cast.  With a shorter cast time is could still be used right as you start to run. Reduce Summon rate or essences to 1% not 2%.  Even at 1% if you fight in a constant flow you will have more essences than you can use.  Also in groups you will use this even less so you will have a chance to build up some more essences then. There are really 2 uses for this spell. 1) Cast early on in a long fight for a big heal then dig in until it repops so you can get a nice boost at the end.  (Good for mobs like the Pit champ) 2) Last ditch effort to stay alive to finish off a mob. Ok there are a few others but these are the 2 key ones.  In both cases you are looking at casting it late in the fight where power is limited so having a huge power requirement makes it useless. Coming back to the whole 1% 2% thing.  At 1% I was still deleting 2 stacks of them a night which is not nearly as bad as the bags full of them at 5%  Also keep in mind mobs are going to be hitting you more often now at the higher levels.  You get haste right?  What makes you think the mobs don't as well?  1% should be more than enough and if you are greedy with them then it acts like a limit which is what it is there for. <div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>Hiya Anzak, I mentioned 2% to keep it inline to the Shadowknights spell but dont mind if it is 1% or not.  The main beef i have is that the spell needs to be 1/3rd roughly of the power cost that we have now or to make it easy just look at the shadow knight's power cost at the same level and mimic it along with casting time and proc percentage.  Keep the 5 min duration and i think there would be balance with the spell with no valid complaint from other classes.  The limiting factors should be time duration and the need for a reagent, not that i have to use a sheild stun to buy myself enough time to get the spell off curently as they have it.  Seems kind of funny on that, for fighter class crusaders are suppose to use two handers more often than the other subclasses but our non shield bash stun only stuns the mob half the time needed to cast this spell and not get interrupted.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ideally a 1 sec casting time would be ideal but i can settle for a 2 sec casting time.  I greatly appreciate the fixes so far from LU 16 for paladins but still would like a few more before i label us 100 percent ok...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  what about our Rez range? heheh</DIV>

[agememn]

Ok so the problem of too many essences got even worse with LU16, now that the blessing spell is toggable and always up (if you want) the number of essences generated is rediculous - I took a run through the pirates hiden cache last night - we cleared the zone - except for the last lvl 60 mob ( one healer just wasnt enough <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).  I get back to town open my bags and I have generated 4 and a half new stacks of essences.  Was wondering if it would be possible to get the number of essences in your inventory capped at a stack - with the 5 min recast its not like we are ever going to run out.  Its not a major deal - but does get annoying lol <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the power cost of the spell - I have to agree that it is too high as it stands.  If this spell is supposed to be used as a last ditch self heal then the power cost and the cast time need to come down - not a huge amount but enough so that it casts most times when we are low on power - not as it is now where I have to burn even more power getting off a stun or ward in order to be sure that the heal will fire <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Krussh</DIV> <DIV>55pally/54 alchy</DIV>

[Boli32]

At present my essense heal is my most mana efficient spell for healing; Larger mana cost but even against pious aid max heal the mana costs per health gain is still less (both are at adept 1). that heal is in fatc my main heal... I normally ward and  if things are getting risky I use this; only in group situations or if thngs are hitting the fan do I use Pious. More often I use the group heal (I duo a lot with a wizzy so his health allways takes hits from mana conversion) and the essance heal... both are none targetable but that saves deselecting anything to get your group member I think its perfect the way it is... except for the essances... I hae loads of them. But consider the quiver... that holds arrows and ONLY arrows... if there where a quiver item where crusader could hold essances and ONLY essances (when it is full no more will be created) that woudl be perfect. Heck if I get that much space to hold essances I'll even take the hit of other spells using essances in exchange for a lower power cost. <div></div>

[Anzak]

But the core of the problem is that it is limited use.  I group most of the time.  When in a group I rarely heal if at all.  The cast time on Ardent Sacrament makes it near useless in a group setting.  When I solo (duo with a mystic so again don't heal very often) I will use it but when soloing there isn't really a need for the extra 150 HP from the blessing line.  Basically blessing line is a waste because it does not provide enough of a HP boost to make it worth having on and dealing with the insane summon rate when grouped since you will never use sacrament line while grouped (or very rarely) when solo if you are getting to that under 100 HP you are already running more than likely.  And even if you did use the extra HP again the summon rate is 100 times what you could use based on the recast. <div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>Hmmm the Blessing of the Celestial lvl 52 spell at a adept 3 is a extra 251 hit points, I have to disagree with you Anzak on that one, I can't think of a time where I dont want this extra health.  Fix the proc rate to either 2% or 1% instead of the 5% but I truely value the extra health this spell gives.  As far as the sacrement line of spells, you guys can see my previous posts on what needs to be changed on it(power cost, casting time).  Could be worse i guess, we could be like the shadow knights and have our taunt abilities 1/3 or less of paladins at the moment....please let there be a fix for that soon.</DIV>

[Anzak]

In a raid yes I want that extra HP but in a group or solo if I get low enough that I need the extra HP then more than likely it is time to run.  While I would like to have the extra HP the insane summon rate of the essences means most of the time I don't have it up. Right now as I see it the blessing line is going to waste you have 2 options either don't use it and lose the HP from it.  Or have your bags flooded with Essences which you have to delete because it is impossible to use them.  Even at 1% summon rate once you get about 10 built up you will never run out because you can regerate then faster than you can cast the spell that needs them. I had 32 (IRC) in my bag that I have had for a while.  In a single raid where I was add/off tank on a few mobs I had it up from time to time but not the entire time.  I think only during two of the harder fights which I had 1 or 2 mobs hitting me but not too much.  I had 52 in my bad at the end of the night.  That is 20 to never casting Sacrament even once because I had healers on me and Sacrament would not be much use when I need to focus on agro control. The essences need to be removed completely as they are a waste of pack space or come up with another use for them.  Maybe a DD spell that uses them so now you can use them up if you want but you have to keep in mind that you lose your big heal and the DD if you do. <div></div>

[Pathin Merrithay]

MT last night in a fairly fast paced exp group, and by the end of he night? 200 essences. This is really starting to get past the point of ridiculousness.

[OrcSlayer96]

<DIV>I see your point on thegeneration of essences Anzak, but i would rather delete the essences than fight without the extra hit points it affords when hit with theinfamous barrage attacksand burst damage alot of these mobs toss at us.  I say we still need the proc down to 1 or2 percent not 5 1/3rd power cost and 1-2 sec cating time with 5 min recast, that would be more benificial than anything else for me. I truely dont see why they dont do this.</DIV>

[trout]

<P>what if ....</P> <P>by using an essence we were able to extend the range of our rez?</P> <P>It's used as a divine heal now so the jump to resurection isnt that big.</P> <P>Just a thought.</P>

[wowmakeitst]

How about making it a heal over time spell that uses essence each pulse or something like we had in EQL (minus the using essence each pulse part)......I'm sure you can throw some more tweaks on it....ahh I can dream can't I?