LU 16 DW dps increased - moving crusaders on bottom of dps list

[Hzor]

<DIV> <DIV>Hello All i am guardian but i think this update will hit crusaders even more than guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I just cant simple understand why soe Increased DW dps and not 2h. I cant understand why SoE greatly redusing repost on DW to.</DIV> <DIV>Why ? You planing to have scouts tank ?? They anyway hitting from behinde in groups, and killing solo mobs so fast so repost dont really</DIV> <DIV>solo encounters problem. They Already have HUGE dps skills, you even tuned UP alot of assasisns skills in LU16 . So why on top of this</DIV> <DIV> you increasing DW raugh DPS ??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why not increase dps only on 2h SLASHING weapons ? So only classes which really need improvement in dps area will</DIV> <DIV>get it ( aka crusaders, guardians when not tanking) Ahh i forgot brawlers. So soryy uber class <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> now i can understand</DIV> <DIV>why devs increased dps and decreased reposts on dw. Actually it will benefit by 100% ONLY brawlers !! ( for scouts only dps</DIV> <DIV>part of update will make sance - they not tanking and dont think will anytime soon) So SoE tuned Up ALREADY Godlike class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I posted this already somewhere in Guardians forums, but i am sure i need to post it in seweral other areas so involved classes</DIV> <DIV>get theys ideas about all this ... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have feeling that EQ2 slowly moving in to EQ1 way. All DoF+ changes make EQ2 more like EQ1.</DIV> <DIV>I remember, that in manual and site was mentioned that this game will have same mechanix for both</DIV> <DIV>DW and 2H weapons with a bit less dps for 1H (becouse you can have HUGE defence boost with shields)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you remember in EQ1  DW was always better dps then 2H and WAY better than 1H weaps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets see way EQ2 moves in to EQ1 direction:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. SoE added free shield to Brawlers - like they have alwais shield with them - even when DW-ing. It was implemented</DIV> <DIV>long time ago (like 6 months or maybe more). Why ? i cant understand actually. If Plate tank need to be MT in group, and group</DIV> <DIV>killing really chalengingn things - they need to wear shield+1H instead of 2H (Warriors and Crusaders). Brawlers still can use their</DIV> <DIV>2H ers since they have ALWAIS shields with them. Why ? WHy not to give them option to ? So if brawler want to be MT on some challenging</DIV> <DIV>mobs ( aka almost orange when exp-ng ) they will need to wear shield like it was implemented in early game ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. LU13 increasing DPS of brawlers even more than prior - agayn i smell eq1 here - monks have there really cool dps (ofcourse not compared to roques</DIV> <DIV>and wizards <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but..)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Isnt in manual mentioned that 2H and DW weaps have SAME dps ? Yes, it is. But now SoE decided to move in to EQ1 direction even more</DIV> <DIV>in dps aspect of game. Now it will make even more difference between Brawlers dps - which CAN and WILL use DW and</DIV> <DIV>Crusaders - wich CANT AT ALL !!!. Also  increasing DW dps will make brawlers tanking really trivial. Everyone know that more dps - more agro</DIV> <DIV>Already having Best dps (ok almost same with scout class) helping them alot with agro, so increasing will have them really big + abowe all other tanks</DIV> <DIV>Will not be surprised if they will abla to hold agro with just autoattack on with 1 taunt casting ( ill check it after update on my RL friends 60 bruiser i often play atm)</DIV> <DIV>No one of plate tanks can afford to tank with DW (of course if mob not blue or white noob) since we loosing alot without shields.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not complaining - i tryed already. Just playing my new 34lvl Ranger alt atm (will try to get that 70% exp to finaly ding my guardian 60). now i can see really DIFFERENT game - very nice and interesting. Any mob which not orange i can kill in 3 shots maxinum - they dieing even prior they can reach me in melee.</DIV> <DIV> Easy killing blue heroics without any adept3 arts. I can sneak and make 3x more quests per given time than my guardian, if something goes wrong - evac is your friend ! Mob is hard ? then just kite it and avoide close combat etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes Soe you really made different games for different classes. Playing guardian now not even close with fun to any other class (exept clerics i think but they atleast</DIV> <DIV>have their primary role not nerfed so bad). Dont know mabe Guardian extra cool for some raid tanking T6 mobs, but... whole game not only raiding some noob need</DIV> <DIV>60lvl of exping / questing to get to the raid part of game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And buck to original idea - SoE please just tell now in patch notes :</DIV> <DIV>With todays increasing of DW dps we need to introduce you new role of fighters classes</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Brawlers - even more dps than ever, best tank with DW (with reducing repostes) and best agro holders</DIV> <DIV>2. Crusaders - only support class for brawlers, current patch makes them fall behinde in dps even more.</DIV> <DIV>3.Warriors -  Zerkers : looks like can benefit of DW update couse of some they skills.</DIV> <DIV>                   Guardians : hmm maybe good for something but we dont know atm for what and in which situations</DIV> <DIV>                   we hope we will finde 2-3 encounters suited for guardians so you can play them 1-2 day per months</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Anyway Dinosaurus gone long time ago. Looks like same happened with Guardians. Ok nothing we can do here. SoE decide that Brawlers new UBER MUST HAVE</DIV> <DIV>class. We cant change anything. So ill just play my Ranger till Vanguard .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haik 59 Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Neriak</DIV> <DIV>P.S. Sorry for English</DIV></DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Well..to be fair to SoE we really are half nukers..but I do see your point.  I am Paladin and our DPS, like our guardian brethren, is a sore point. SoE gave us pretty good nukes, but our recasts are too long, IMO, specially our ranged skills.</P> <P>I'd have to wait to see actual parsers, but from what I read, fighters who DW will have even better DPS than current, which means all things being equal, Paladins and SK's will stay where they are, whereas Bruisimonks and Guardzerkers will edge further away from us.</P> <P>Im going to wait to see what parsers say, and I'll comment then..but anyone who knows me knows that I'm...persistent when it comes to Crusader issues :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>BTW, guards need more utility, no question about that...so maybe that DPS boost is a step in the right direction.</P> <HR>

[H3llburn]

well it also hits the sore point of Brusiers and monks tanking and having the best of all worlds, they can tank they can dps they can do it all basically. Why would you ever bother having anyone else tank because you know they can hold agro ok. I certainly would love to see a 2hander dps boost that would be appropriate. I also do know that all the old arguments that the plate class's can tank so cant dps need to get thrown out the window, its simply far to limiting comparitve to other class's including berserkers.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>hmn....</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=9501" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=9501</A></P> <P>the damage on those things is pretty nice, considering that someone who dual wields will hit for far more auto attack damage than us, specially those chars that can self haste. The best speed of a one hander sword that Crusaders can equip is 1.7 , the best speed for a 2 hander that I know of is 2.0.  Its not a nerf to crusaders damage, but all things being equal, every tank BUT crusaders will see a robust increase in auto attack damage.</P> <P>I'd like to see an increase in spell damage to even the playing field.</P>

[RiotActer]

Why is DPS so important to everyone these days? We're not a solo class.  Sure we can do it, but it's time consuming...  I don't know...  With all these combat changes, soloing for tank classes isn't fun.  What's fun is keeping the aggro off DPS classes and letting them open up. I'm always being offered runs into blah, blah instance zone, blah blah instance zone...  Why?  Because DPS groups are seeking out pally's.  Finding a group for us is really not hard...  They aren't asking me to join because of my UBER dps....  They want me to do my job, and keep aggo of the REAL dps classes.  We are also one of the best at AOE dps in the game.  Every group I've been in the mobs die so fast that I could be at the the top of DPS list if I get my AOEs off. If any Pally is complaining about our aggro mgt, then you need to learn your toon.  In a group setup, we are one of the best.  (I'm not going to say best, because then we'll be nerfed).  We don't have near the problems that other tanks have. Then people complain about :  What if I'm not the MT?  Cripes, we have some of the best utility for tanks...  Some of the Giant XP group I've been on...  Healer has to go AFK due to the Wife Faction...  NP, I'll heal.  Let me tell you, it's a challenge, but the group kept grinding and no one died.  Remember you can mitigation buff the MT for +370.  You have a 910 damage ward, amends on the hightest DPS class, and you have a group heal, solo target heal, and an emergency heal.  You can make the MT's job easier plain and simple. So I ask you... Why do we need Duel Wield? <div></div>

[Kale]

<span><blockquote><hr>RiotActer wrote:Why is DPS so important to everyone these days? We're not a solo class.  Sure we can do it, but it's time consuming...  I don't know...  With all these combat changes, soloing for tank classes isn't fun.  What's fun is keeping the aggro off DPS classes and letting them open up. I'm always being offered runs into blah, blah instance zone, blah blah instance zone...  Why?  Because DPS groups are seeking out pally's.  Finding a group for us is really not hard...  They aren't asking me to join because of my UBER dps....  They want me to do my job, and keep aggo of the REAL dps classes.  We are also one of the best at AOE dps in the game.  Every group I've been in the mobs die so fast that I could be at the the top of DPS list if I get my AOEs off. If any Pally is complaining about our aggro mgt, then you need to learn your toon.  In a group setup, we are one of the best.  (I'm not going to say best, because then we'll be nerfed).  We don't have near the problems that other tanks have. Then people complain about :  What if I'm not the MT?  Cripes, we have some of the best utility for tanks...  Some of the Giant XP group I've been on...  Healer has to go AFK due to the Wife Faction...  NP, I'll heal.  Let me tell you, it's a challenge, but the group kept grinding and no one died.  Remember you can mitigation buff the MT for +370.  You have a 910 damage ward, amends on the hightest DPS class, and you have a group heal, solo target heal, and an emergency heal.  You can make the MT's job easier plain and simple. So I ask you... Why do we need Duel Wield? <div></div><hr></blockquote> Right on all counts. I agree. DPS isn't an issue for me.  I'm a Paladin - my job is to manage aggro so everyone else can unload. And our utility is very good. If anything, we need improvements to existing tools so we can fulfill our role better. We need better mitigation, more HP, more Power, better shield factor... Our job is to tank. </span><div></div>

[lover]

*sigh* I wish someone had told me we aren't a soloing class before I got to level 59 by soloing 95% of the time =D doh - so the cheaty swashies dw, poison, self speed, stealth, tracking, great evade, nice mit, evac ho's will get even more damage? aaargh

[H3llburn]

The point is, why should we settle for alittle when everyone else is getting alot. Utility Hell we wont take mroe then one paladin a raid  period , there s that for our great utility.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>hmn..i cant see where anyone asked to be able to DW. The only thing I asked for is an increase in damage along our spell lines. I dont see why or how thats unreasonable.</P> <P>I leveled mostly by soloing, duoing, or raiding. I personally dont really like grouping (unless they are close friends), unless im questing.</P> <P>I totally disagree that the Paladin is NOT a solo class. We sure as day are..our heals and wards allow us to solo much better than most chars. We may not mow through as fast as mages, but we get it done. Were EQUALLY good in grps or soloing.</P> <P>Im confused as to why if any other classes get an increase, and some of us ask for something similar..that we are somehow wrong.</P> <P>As for better tanking skills..well, that didnt help Guardians out, did it? Better tanking skills are an overspecialization. There can only be ONE tank, and there is already a tank, then what do you do?</P> <P>               <STRONG>     <U>Grp A</U></STRONG></P> <P>Tank A         picked</P> <P>Tank B                       not picked</P> <P>So what does tank B do? sit around waiting for another grp? or go solo? or maybe, just maybe..hes has some utlity. Since EVERY grp already has a healer, any extra that a Paly can contribute, other than healing, is advantageous.  Guards have more hit points and more mitigation. You will never, ever have the hit points and probably the mitigation of a Guard. We tank differently. We are resist tanks, not physical tanks. </P> <P>Berserkers and Guards are trying to get our redemption line nerfed. If that happens, any extra DPS would go a long way towards aggro.</P> <P>If we receive better mitigation and hit points, we give up our heals. We cannot have both. If I wanted better mitigation and hit points and such, I would have made a Guardian.</P> <P>As for the difference in DPS..well..I can already see someone saying that if I wanted DPS I would have made a ranger, or a wizzie, or such other nonsense. Well, I look at this way. Monks, bruisers, Guards, and Berserkers chose a tank class, NOT a DPS class, and they got a nice boost to the auto attack.</P> <P>What is so wrong about asking for something along those lines for Palys? Its not like im asking for DW. I'm asking for a boost to our SPELL damage, something other Crusaders have been asking for since BEFORE the DW thing.</P> <P>This boost in dual wielding just gives it more impetus.</P> <p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 PM</span>

[Belgor]

<DIV>I'm pretty sure the whole point of the Dual Wield increase is to make the damage of DW on par with 2-hander damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would mean that the dps increase would only be true for classes that cannot already use a 2-hander. That is scouts. And we should not be comparing ourselves to scout damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The classes that already could use 2-hander, now has a choise to instead use dual wield for the same damage.</DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>I disagree. If you look at the link I posted, Bruisers, who could already use 2 handers, as well as DW..can already see that there is going to be a nice DPS increase for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont mind if they do..I'd just like to see something similar for Crusaders.  Remember every other tank, but Crusaders can already dual wield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still say we could use a spell damage increase to even it out. Of course I could be wrong I guess, but we'll see what parsers say. Ill wait to see a parsed fight between a DW attack and a 2 hander and see what the difference is in proc damage as well as auto-attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember, the procs alreay made up for the DPS differences between 2 handers and DW. The stats are also pretty nice. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pristine imbued cobalt mace: DR: 37.2, Base: 18-53, Dmg: 46-138 x 2 is alot of damage, specially considering the speed.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>By the way, I believe all these weapons are bruiser/ monks weapons..not scout weapons. Its not just scouts that are getting their weapons looked at. Every tank, but Crusaders, now has the choice of using both 2 handers and DW weapons for nice damage.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Is it wrong to ask for bit more spell damage?</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:24 AM</span>

[Belgor]

<DIV>procs didnt realy make up for it, since you proc more with a slow weapon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if it says 5% chance to proc, that is the chance to proc with a 3 sec delay weapon. So if you have a 3 sec delay weapon, you proc on 5% of all your attacks and combat arts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you have a 1 sec delay weapon, you proc on 1.7% off your attacks. That means you only proc on 1.7% off your combat arts also, so the proc late is alot lower.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But anyway, if I am wrong and this actualy ends up to increase their dps, the by all means, increase crusader dps also, but hard to get evidence for this already. You also have to consider the fact that with a slow weapon, you can do combat arts and spells between swings, while with a fast weapon you miss swings because of doing combat arts.</DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>A 2-handed 2.5 second delay with a 5% chance to proc will proc more than 1.4 x 2 second delay weapons with procs??</DIV> <DIV>I'll have to test this...it would seem to me that those 2 weapons would have double the proc rate..hmn..interesting..</DIV>

[Belgor]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>A 2-handed 2.5 second delay with a 5% chance to proc will proc more than 1.4 x 2 second delay weapons with procs??</DIV> <DIV>I'll have to test this...it would seem to me that those 2 weapons would have double the proc rate..hmn..interesting..</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Currently, those 2 weapons proc alot less...</DIV>

[Raijinn]

<DIV>Shutting thread down, multiple reposts and spamming message.</DIV>