What A Night . . .sheesh [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Tur

10-26-2005, 10:47 PM

I log in last night and the guildies invite me to join them in PoF so I grab the carpet and run on down. Here's the group: Guardian (1 lvl below me at 52) Templar (53) Swashy (54) [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]assin (55) Wizzy (54) Me (53) The Guard is tanking and I'm playing back up (even though he's a human and Im a barb, he's got almost 1,000 HP on me (I'm seriously thinking /respec + STA). I've got the armament buff on him and all goes well: we're pulling the Orange-To-Me ^^^ golem thingies. The guard never loses aggro once even on multiple pulls. Good deal. 45 minutes later, the Guard has to log and we replace him with a Fury (55). I'm now MT. Okay, rebuff: cancel bugged Armament (cause it doesn't auto drop), get up Defensive stance, put Amends on the highest lvl DPS (the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]assin). Pull. I pull with the ranged attack, follow immediately with Clarion adept 1, the AOE Taunt adept III, and the shield bash adept 1. The MOB is on the Swashy, the MOB is on the Wizzy, the MOB is on the Templar . . . we kill it. Try again. Pull group of three: The MOB is on the Swashy, the MOB is on the Wizzy, the MOB is on the Templar. Rescue is now gone. Switch Amends to the Swashy. Pull. Basically, the same result only this time the MOB goes to the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]assin. This goes on all night. I am popping taunts, bashes, AOE's. wards, heals, harsh language: ANYTHING! Once, in desperation, I even use Sigil! I eventually manage to keep the MOBs off most the group (maybe everyone backs off on DPS and the heals a bit) but still the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]assin pulls it off me every fight. If I switch Amends to him, the MOB simply goes to the next DPS class in the group. Really a frustrating night. So, who sees the glaring error in my play here? Yes, I used Sigil ONCE and carefully put Amends back on one of the DPS folx (it really didn't seem to matter which one, whoever DIDN'T have it wore the mob). How is it that the Guard (one lvl below me had NO problems)? I must really sux. :smileysad:

Tur

10-26-2005, 10:56 PM

Even the expletive filter hates 'em! :smileyvery-happy:

djhbeek

10-26-2005, 10:58 PM

one problem i've found as a pally, is that you have to comunicate more than a guard does ... the problem generally being that if aggro is bouncing around, EVERYONE drops their dps (including the person you have Amends on) ... i try to have a little one-on-one with whoever has Amends and tell them to chain cast as long as they arent the one with agro ... ive had those nights where you keep switching Amends around, and it's really tough without voice chat to help let ppl know what they need to be doing ...

Majorminor

10-26-2005, 11:03 PM

Those times happen, and that is a pretty heavy dps group to boot. Would ask if Amends is adept 3 or not, that really seemed to make a difference for me. The others might have gotten spoiled with the guard tanking and what not, but it is also there responsiblity to watch agrro as well.

Tur

10-26-2005, 11:06 PM

Thanks dj, I feel better :smileyhappy: So about "Amends": the more DPS the amends recipient does, the MORE the mob sticks to me, or is there a limit over which they are gonna get smacked? I've always been a bit confused about that.

Oakbr

10-26-2005, 11:19 PM

How far were you pulling? We can cast taunts while moving. If I have time, I like to pull with that long range damage spell, then hit both taunts while running back to the group. If I don't have room to do it that way, I usually pull with taunt. Other than that, sounds like you were doing the right things--maybe throw in a group heal and self ward early as well. What about those DPS types...were they unloading their "big bang" stuff at the start of the fight? Don't remember if you said you have Zealous Preaching and Amends at Adept 3. Strongly reccomend them. For my single taunt, I'm still using the one from Splitpaw most of the time. Range is shorter than Clarion line, but it's a stronger taunt, scales with you, and has a chance to double taunt.

djhbeek

10-26-2005, 11:20 PM

let's say your Amends transfers 40% of hate. there's no limit to how much hate will be transfered. if you are doing 100 hate/sec and the recip is doing 200 hate/sec, then your hate is 100 + 200 * 0.4 = 180/sec and theirs is 200 * 0.6 = 120/sec. so you maintain agro as long as no one else in the group goes over 180. now lets say the whole group is hanging out at 150 and everything is going fine, and suddenly the recip decides he better do 150 as well. you'd be doing 100 + 150 * 0.4 = 160/sec, him 150 * 0.6 = 90/sec ... so all is good, but if anyone does even a little more dps, you are toast. if he goes ninja afk: you: 100 + 0 * 0.4 = 100 sec, him 0 * 0.6 = 0/sec, everyone else = dead. guards don't loose agro because DPS goes afk ... pallies do ... Another tip: i've learned to watch the mana bar of whoever i have Amends on ... if it isn't going down very fast, change it to someone that is using power ... if they are oop, same thing. it's a major pita to do it mid-fight, but it works ...

CycoDelic

10-26-2005, 11:22 PM

Dj makes a good point. In a group situation I always let whomever is getting Amends know up front. I even tell then to go all out, as even with warlocks in AE situations I have yet to have a problem losing agro to the warlock as long as he has the buff (oh- and isnt afk puttin the kids to bed or mixing a drink :p). Another good point, and this is true in all situations: Agro cntrol is not just the MTs responsibility. If that wizard wants to keep flying off with Ice too soon and dies a few times in the process, hopefully s/he learns a good lesson any EQ1 wizard would already know <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

djhbeek

10-26-2005, 11:22 PM

<blockquote><hr>Oakbrow wrote:How far were you pulling? We can cast taunts while moving. If I have time, I like to pull with that long range damage spell, then hit both taunts while running back to the group. If I don't have room to do it that way, I usually pull with taunt. Other than that, sounds like you were doing the right things--maybe throw in a group heal and self ward early as well. What about those DPS types...were they unloading their "big bang" stuff at the start of the fight? Don't remember if you said you have Zealous Preaching and Amends at Adept 3. Strongly reccomend them. For my single taunt, I'm still using the one from Splitpaw most of the time. Range is shorter than Clarion line, but it's a stronger taunt, scales with you, and has a chance to double taunt. <hr></blockquote>well ... remember: we are talking about orange mobs here (to him) ... so taunts are going to be less effective. the ward early on is nice, 'cause it generates agro all the time (cause you don't resist your own spell).

Nurta

10-26-2005, 11:49 PM

For future reference....if Sigil was working would this be a situation where we'd want to use it?

djhbeek

10-26-2005, 11:55 PM

yes and no ... sigil is like a 5 min timer or something ... so if you're pulling faster than that, you can't rely on it as a strategy. but you'd use it alot picking the points where it would help most (usually with groups to keep off-target agro), or to gain hate on adds when [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hits the fan.

WAPCE

10-27-2005, 12:06 AM

Sigil recast is only 2 min, though still not an every-fight spell if you're moving through mobs quickly.

Belgor

10-27-2005, 01:29 AM

Well, in a group like that, your target for amends was not optimal. Both the Swashy and the Assassin have buffs that can transfer hate to you right? And those do not stack with amends (have tried it a bit, hard to tell conclusively with agro-skills, but they definately do not stack additive (41+23=64%), but they might stack and work one at a time, though that is not my experience with them). So your target for amends should have been the wizard, that way you would get 41% hate from the wizard, and like 23% hate from each the scouts. This is just imo <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Message Edited by Belgorim on 10-26-2005 11:29 PM

Tur

10-27-2005, 02:55 AM

I don't know how to do multiple quotes so this might be a bit clunky. Sorry. <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=102666" target=_blank>Oakbrow</A> : "How far were you pulling? We can cast taunts while moving. If I have time, I like to pull with that long range damage spell, then hit both taunts while running back to the group. If I don't have room to do it that way, I usually pull with taunt. Other than that, sounds like you were doing the right things--maybe throw in a group heal and self ward early as well." I was pulling faaaaaaaaaar, lol. I was basically chain pulling so as we cleared the area I had to run farther and farther (or is that further and further?). The Templar and the Fury had a 10g bet that I would die on the next pull at one point. =) I did use taunts when I was way out but I'm so used to throwing the shield bash I'd go into combat mode and end up running in wierd circles half the time so I waited 'til I got them back: Zealous Adept III, Clarion, Bash, AOE (both) Ward. Recycle Clarion . . .like that. <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=10891" target=_blank>djhbeek</A> : "if you are doing 100 hate/sec and the recip is doing 200 hate/sec, then your hate is 100 + 200 * 0.4 = 180/sec and theirs is 200 * 0.6 = 120/sec. so you maintain agro as long as no one else in the group goes over 180. now lets say the whole group is hanging out at 150 and everything is going fine, and suddenly the recip decides he better do 150 as well. you'd be doing 100 + 150 * 0.4 = 160/sec, him 150 * 0.6 = 90/sec ... so all is good, but if anyone does even a little more dps, you are toast." So, whoever gets Amends better darn well be doing the MOST dps is what I gather. Anything less and I lose aggro. How does this work with multiple MOBS (say, three or four)? Same deal? Hate is distributed to me via Amends from all the mobs in the encounter? "Another tip: i've learned to watch the mana bar of whoever i have Amends on ... if it isn't going down very fast, change it to someone that is using power ... if they are oop, same thing. it's a major pita to do it mid-fight, but it works ... " Good one! <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=170863" target=_blank>CycoDelic</A> : "Dj makes a good point. In a group situation I always let whomever is getting Amends know up front." Aye, that's why we love dj :smileyhappy: I did tell the group who was getting Amends and I told them each time I switched it, but I didn't make a big enough point of it. I just mentioned it in /gsay. I 'prolly need to spend more time talking to the DPS types. Excellent advice. <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=7664" target=_blank>Nurta</A> : "For future reference....if Sigil was working would this be a situation where we'd want to use it?" I did use Sigil (Adept III) once during the evening - when we had multiples and each one was on a different caster (I'm not kidding!). I gotta say, in that situation: it worked like a charm. They were all back on me in seconds. I had to redo Amends after but heck, it worked! <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=207" target=_blank>Belgorim</A> : Well, in a group like that, your target for amends was not optimal. Yes, I'm beginning to see that now. I just started with the highest lvl DPS class and adjusted from there. Both the Swashy and the Assassin have buffs that can transfer hate to you right? Yeah, and they used 'em too: when their health was in the red! Not before. The two rogue types were the only two non-guildies and I gotta tell ya: I gave the Family Filter a workout in /gu! :smileywink: Everybody: thanks for the help, all! I'm gonna have to think about the way Amends works a bit more. . .I'm still not super clear on it but I have a much better idea now.

robusticus

10-27-2005, 03:53 AM

I throw Zealous when soloing to debuff Divine - was working on orange no arrow solo con mobs and they were resisting it ALOT... but still coming after me on pull... sometimes had to recast 3 or 4 times... I wonder if that was happening to you... throwing the taunts not having them land and then the DPS jumps you on the hate list off the bat...? Orange cons are very highly annoying in that they resist, block, stun and interrupt constantly and throw us way out of rythm. Nothing like throwing ye-old stun-ward only to land in an interrupt because the stun was "parried".

Doylen

10-27-2005, 01:59 PM

I have noticed that amends sometimes bugs out... You know how you cast it on one person and then you zone and you can cast amends on another person after that. If that happens it seems like amends is inaffective. it doesn't work at all. And then we have the other thing that annoys me. I duoed with a level 56 berserker, I am level 60 and I chain taunt with clarion cry, zealous preaching and corageous bash, they're adept 1, adept 3 adept 1. Now I have amends on him but after about 1 hr I notice that the berserker is grabbing aggro while I'm still chain taunting, and got amends on, the berserker is not taunting at all, he's not even using attacks that give threat. and if he would it would still transfer 42% hate since my amends is adept 3. I don't understand why after about 1 hr he can grab aggro when I am chain taunting, using amends... Is this a bug or am I doing something wrong??

MeridianR

10-27-2005, 07:05 PM

Ran a Scornfeather Roost group last night with the following group (I called it DPS Heaven..lol) -- MT (Hey thats me) -- Brigand -- Conjuror -- Ranger -- Warlock -- Inquisitor Switched Amends between the Warlock and Conjuror/Brigand depending on how many mobs we pulled...but Amends worked perfect. Yes I do agree though, my guildies know about Amends so they know to go all out, but in a PUG I always let the person who I cast it on know. Sigil does work sucessfully if amends isn't on, and sometimes I used it on the pull. In this example: -- Cancel amends -- Pull with AoE Taunt -- Single Taunt -- Ward -- Sigil of Heroism -- wait til buff is finished -- Amends on whoever I decide This does work very well, but if you forget to re-cast amends and the timer isn't up on Sigil, it gets hairy...lol

RiotActer

10-27-2005, 07:07 PM

I recast amends a lot. Usually when we're waiting for power, or someone goes afk. I did this with redemption as well. Always recast if a group member goes LD. Recast when zoning etc. Amends and swashies.... I hunt with a swashie all the time.... He can throw out some massive DPS with posions, etc. If we are hunting an encounter of 3+ linked mobs, then he has to tone down his DPS some as I'll have amends on a Wizzard or Warlock. If we're going against a single ^^^, then I'll keep amends on the wizzard, or recast on the swashie. It's a 50/50 with a DPS scout vs. a Wizzard / Warlock against a solo encounter. Group / Linked encounters: Scouts have to watch their hate. This isn't something that just effects Pally's, but all tank classes. You also have to watch the level of the character amends is on. The difference between a 58 warlock and a 56 wizzard is night and day... The difference between a 56 wizzard and a 58 DPS scout is night and day.

Anzak

10-27-2005, 07:46 PM

I think I would have Put Amends on the Wizzy there and told them to open up. Single Target a Wizzy can build up a lot of DPS also did the swashy have his agro redirect on you? Sounds like he didn't. Resists also might have played a factor. I always try to pull with Zealous Preaching and make sure it lands before I get back to group that helps a lot. If you can be sure that both AE and single taunt land before you get back to group on pull then the DPS can open up as soon as the mob is in camp and if like I said the WIzzy has amends on him and the swashy is using his agro redirect on you there should not be much of a problem. The nice thing about using taunts on pull is you can pretty much know you are the only one casting so when you hear that ping sound you know it was resisted and you need to recast right away. Much harder in combat as there are others casting all over the place and you can't be sure if that was your taunt being resisted or someone elses spell.

djhbeek

10-27-2005, 07:47 PM

as far as groups and/or multiple groups and amends goes (note: this is just theory from how i've seen it work and reading into dev comments, because there's no way to verify this): each mob has their own hate list. if they didn't, it wouldn't be possible for 2 linked mobs to be attacking different targets, and we all know they do. therefore, my previous example was simplified by showing the effects on only 1 target. in reality, you are generating hate separately on all mobs you are in combat with (usually at different rates). there IS such a thing as social hate. in a linked encounter, it IS possible to turn a mob, by single target tauting and DPSing a mob that is linked to it (and for that matter by healing the target of said linked mob -- actually saw a update note on this, which confirmed my suspicions on this). this is most noticeable early in a fight. that being said, the amount of hate generated on mobs linked to the one you are targetting is much less than the hate generation for the one you have targetted, so, i'm not recommending this as a strat to turn a mob, it's just important to understand that this happens ... therefore ... when understanding hate-steals, it's important to note that the amount of hate you steal for each mob is based on how much hate the person is generating on each mob. if you are fighting linked mobs and having trouble with the off-target mobs, put amends on a class that causes hate off-target (an AE class). fwiw, healers generate hate off-target, but healing agro just isnt what it used to be (ward classes were wonderful when DoF came out). some tanks generate hate off-target too if they are taunting, so sometimes that works too, plus you don't have to worry about what happens if they pull aggro =). when fighting multiple non-linked mobs, you want amends on whoever is casting open AEs.

Gatts

10-27-2005, 09:58 PM

i had a similiar problem in runnyeye where i couldnt hold aggro, i was taunting almost constantly, i then spammed H/O's as much as i could and its attention went back on to me. im only a 35 paladin tho your 50+ kinda differant as you have more and useful spells, but its basically the same thing i had all my defense buffs on and redempt was on the highest dps in the party.

Anzak

10-27-2005, 11:35 PM

Yeah but there is a major Differance. Amends is 30% trasnfer at adept I I think Redeption is only 17% at Adept I I was mentored to a level 25 helping him out and I noticed it was harder to hold agro because of this.

KosS

10-28-2005, 01:59 AM

I've seen groups go like this. Sometimes with me tanking, which would occasionally frustrate me. Then I started playing a Warlock. Now playing DPS is tricky. You have all the power to deal dmg, yet not nearly enough to take it. In a group, I found I had to mess around with debuffs right out the gate so as not to take agro. Then I noticed the mobs died too fast for me to do what I was best at if I debuffed. So I only had one choice, nuke like a mad gnome! Of course with 3-4 DPS in a group, the mob would always agro one of us at that point, so the rest would nuke even harder to save their comrad, thus taking away all reality of the tank ever regaining sanity. Now, I've heard about some of the new special abities some of the classes get. In particular, the scout has an ability that almost always takes hate from me every time he uses it. He can use this every 3 minutes. If he uses this skill with another skill it hits everything in the vacinity for crazy amounts of damage. When he does this he pretty much tanks till he or the mob dies. I am positive all DPS have abilities like this. One Ranger told me if he uses an arrow CA he almost always agro's. He explained this does great damage though. What i'm getting at here, is that it isn't so much the tanks lack of abilities and taunts, but more of the way the DPS are going about their business. Keep in mind, for sure agro management, mobs would die much slower. So in the end, I say whatever doesn't kill your DPS, is well worth losing agro over. Edit: And yes. So far as I've heard, Guardians get an AE Rescue type spell which raises threat positions as well as points. I do not know what the re-use timer is, but I've heard nothing but great things about it. Kosuke of GukMessage Edited by KosSan on 10-27-2005 03:02 PM

Tames

10-28-2005, 07:19 PM

You didnt do too much that i wouldnt have done. I would do this though if Amends on Scouts isnt working - Use Refusal (its ranged also) to pull or a hex doll if damage agro is greater. Ward self to build agro from mobs damage. Use Rush and bash straight up for fast agro. Amends on the Wizzy. Doom has a 2.8% reduction on mob DPS and must generate agro. Group heals and buffs generate agro. Rebuff group in combat. LOH can be used also if desperate. Get DPS types to hold off at first to allow agro building. Some idiots have to spam their highest damage the instant you pull. Have Intercept on the Assassin it generates agro :smileytongue: Hope this helps :smileyhappy:

Arkn

11-01-2005, 06:30 PM

<DIV>One great piece of advice I read ages ago that I have tried to follow ever since on multiple mob encounters is to be the first person to throw in an AoE. Carefully checking your surroundings this can be either the green (encounter) or blue (not) background spells/CAs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 56 and grouping with a 57 wizzy, 58 ranger, 55 mystic and 54 coercer we were chain pulling with no problem. There were a couple of instances where one mob in a group would peal off and go for the mystic (his perma buffs generate huge aggro but I had amends on the ranger or wiz) but that was usually because I had been lazy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I open up with ranged then both taunts then shield bash and then the ward (the shield bash gives me a 4 second window and works pretty well with a group too). That is usually enough to hold it but I throw in a taunt when I feel like I could be going to lose it based on how quickly the mobs health is decreasing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This seems to work really well at 56 on mobs all the way up to 60 which are still yellow so it could be the higher resistance on those orange mobs. Both my taunts are Master 1 btw which obviously has a big effect so I would always suggest upgrading those soon if you are tanking a lot.</DIV>

Rhianni

11-01-2005, 08:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Turii wrote: This goes on all night. I am popping taunts, bashes, AOE's. wards, heals, harsh language: ANYTHING! Once, in desperation, I even use Sigil! I eventually manage to keep the MOBs off most the group (maybe everyone backs off on DPS and the heals a bit) but still the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]assin pulls it off me every fight. If I switch Amends to him, the MOB simply goes to the next DPS class in the group. Really a frustrating night. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Why did you only use it once? It has a 2 minute recast time. Useable at least every other fight. Its made to pull aggro off others. Its SPECIFICALLY made for times like this.</DIV>

djhbeek

11-01-2005, 08:27 PM

<blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Turii wrote: This goes on all night. I am popping taunts, bashes, AOE's. wards, heals, harsh language: ANYTHING! Once, in desperation, I even use Sigil! I eventually manage to keep the MOBs off most the group (maybe everyone backs off on DPS and the heals a bit) but still the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]assin pulls it off me every fight. If I switch Amends to him, the MOB simply goes to the next DPS class in the group. Really a frustrating night. <hr> </blockquote> <div>Why did you only use it once? It has a 2 minute recast time. Useable at least every other fight. Its made to pull aggro off others. Its SPECIFICALLY made for times like this.</div><hr></blockquote>because it's bugged. thus the "i even used sigil" ... whether you use that spell or not really depends on the level of frustration and mucking around you are willing to do while in combat. it's kind of sad. our big "oh [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]" agro spell, causes you to have to do more clicking around right at points in combat where you'd rather not ...<div></div>

Rhianni

11-02-2005, 01:15 AM

My apologies if I missed something but everything that I have read about the bug is that it overides amends not that it doesnt work. You had used it once and got better results. I usually dont have problems in groups here are some things I do. Pull with the hex doll that lowers their damage. Healers dont have to heal they wont create hate. While the target is running at me cast a ward. Ward damage prevented counts towards hate. This also gives some time for healers not building their own hate. Use the AoE damge spells. Forget the single target damage spells. That takes power and time away from building hate against the entire counter. Place amends on whoever I lose hate to. They are the ones not giving me enough time to build hate. <DIV>I'd ask the guardian if he had adept 3s in most of his abilities. I didnt have any adept 3 spells before they increased the drop rate on rares. Before I had difficulties holding aggro. Now with 8 adept 3 from lvls 41-50 I have no problem at all. I bet that guardian had many too.</DIV>

djhbeek

11-02-2005, 01:22 AM

no your right ... it works ... or at least i think it works. but you have to be willing to deal with it's issues (ie. recast amends). my dislike about it is that watching for sigil to go down and then recasting amends is too distracting when i'm trying to manage agro on multiple encounters (cause when i'm really tempted to use it is when you get adds) and watch for whether we need to move the group, or get more adds, ward whoever is being hit, make sure no one is getting barraged. 90% of the time, i'd rather just chain-fire blue AEs and not have to worry about sigil ... <div></div>

Tur

11-02-2005, 03:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rhianni wrote: Place amends on whoever I lose hate to. They are the ones not giving me enough time to build hate. So are most of you using Amends primarily during combat: casting it ad hoc during battles like a taunt? I've been using it like a buff: I cast it on the highest lvl DPS and forget it (unless I have to move it to someone else). <DIV>I'd ask the guardian if he had adept 3s in most of his abilities. I didnt have any adept 3 spells before they increased the drop rate on rares. Before I had difficulties holding aggro. Now with 8 adept 3 from lvls 41-50 I have no problem at all. I bet that guardian had many too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah, he's decked out with most of the toys. I only have Sigil and Zealous at Adept III. I wish that I'd see some of that "increased drop rate" on rares. My harvesting sessions have turned up rares well, rarely. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

Rhianni

11-02-2005, 04:41 AM

I still use T5 spells as I am only lvl 53. There is a loop behind the first bridge in Lavastorm that is great for harvesting. Not many people know about it. No animal dens there for some odd reason. Can harvest and get rubies. I have been using it like a buff but if someone is pulling aggro off me I switch amends to them and test. Maybe they are not being patient with letting the MT build hate. I see amends more for the people who unload with too much DPS too fast.

Doylen

11-02-2005, 05:30 AM

If I have a wizard in the group I usually just put amends on him before we go into an instance or whatever and that usually keeps aggro on me. I recast it whenever we break to make sure it's still working. There are only a few exceptions like the fabled out all adept 3, master 1 ranger in the guild, If I put amends on him I barely lose aggro to anything It's almost enough to use Zealous preaching (adept 3) and then just use AEs when they come up. (Wewt. 200th post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) <div></div>