Paladin Changes - 10/19/05 [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Rochir

10-19-2005, 09:50 PM

<DIV>This screenshot shows the changes to Unyielding Wrath Adept III and Master I as well as indium and cobalt armor:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a290/blackweb1/EQ2_000002.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com"> <DIV> </DIV> <img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a290/blackweb1/EQ2_000003.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com"> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note in particular:</DIV> <UL> <LI> THe massive increase in strength (+100 for the Adept II version) from Unyielding Wrath.</LI> <LI> The big boost in stats on the cobalt and indium armor.</LI> <LI> The dark blue tint of the cobalt helm.</LI> <LI>The indium armor has a new look, gray with blue highlights.</LI> <LI> I got the Unyielding Wrath Master I from Blightwhip in Rivervale.</LI></UL> I like it SOE! Kudos to Moorgard, Galliente and the rest of the hard-working EQ2 Team! :smileyvery-happy: Message Edited by Rochir on 10-19-2005 01:44 PM

Belgor

10-19-2005, 09:59 PM

<DIV>Yes, this is certainly great news, both the new looks and the offensive stance. And thanks for the pictures for us on the European servers who don't get the patch until tomorrow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did notice that they reduced the piercing, slashing, crushing increase of Unyielding Wrath (Master1) though. Because for me on the euro-servers now, it gives +39 to them, and on that screenshot it is +33. It is still a great tradeoff for 115 strength though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another thing about the patch that concerns me though:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- All Priest emergency death-prevention spell lines now have a 100% chance to prevent death. Upgrades will increase the amount healed. </DIV> <DIV>Afaik our death-prevention skill is still like 72% or something right?</DIV>

Rochir

10-19-2005, 11:44 PM

Ok I need advice on the Unyielding Wrath Master I. Sell it or scribe it?

djhbeek

10-19-2005, 11:46 PM

i have it ... i like it alot. <div></div>

WAPCE

10-20-2005, 12:04 AM

I vote scribe it. The advantage over Adept III is marginal (those skill increases hardly do anything to begin with), but the replacement doesn't come until 60. I like the new cobalt, but I would love the indium if they kept it grey/blue and added a slight gloss to it, perhaps with a slightly darker grey.Message Edited by WAPCE on 10-19-2005 04:06 PM

Anzak

10-20-2005, 12:35 AM

I logged in for a minute today. Sorry the Cobalt is still lame looking. It looks like they took the Ebon armor and added a blue wash to it. And the Grey with blue detailing on the gloves and bracers sucks I would much rather have a consistant look. <div></div>

Kale

10-20-2005, 01:27 AM

Just an awesome change. +STR and +INT, and in heafty amounts too. It certainly changes our ability to solo or provide DPS in a non-MT role. All I can say is... If the dev team responded to our concerns about STR in the offensive stance this way, then perhaps our problems with Range Slot Items and Mitigation/Avoidance issues will someday also be addressed in a similiar fashion. Nice work SOE. One step at a time.

Rochir

10-20-2005, 02:41 AM

I scribed Unyielding Wrath Master I. Nice boost in dps, about 5-10% <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Goejun

10-20-2005, 03:37 AM

Yeah, at last some good news ! One step in the good direction.

Mgunner

10-20-2005, 03:50 AM

<DIV>This is a great day indeed. With the boost in stats from UW and from cobalt armor, we are getting a great increase in DPS, resists, defense, etc</DIV>

Rochir

10-20-2005, 03:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mgunner wrote: <DIV>This is a great day indeed. With the boost in stats from UW and from cobalt armor, we are getting a great increase in DPS, resists, defense, etc</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>LOL! I have the feeling that Blightwhip (level 40 heroic^^^ named blightrat that drops the Master I of Unyielding Wrath) in Rivervale will be camped by Paladins on every server tonight <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Mgunner

10-20-2005, 04:01 AM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rochir wrote: <DIV>LOL! I have the feeling that Blightwhip (level 40 heroic^^^ named blightrat that drops the Master I of Unyielding Wrath) in Rivervale will be camped by Paladins on every server tonight <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Good thing I already have it. I'm getting such a stat increase with UW and all my armor being cobalt (except for T6 fabled gloves). One more thing, anyone else find it silly that people are still running around with T5 fabled that suck, ie, Flame-tested BP</DIV>

xIC

10-20-2005, 08:29 AM

<DIV>HEHE i got lucky and bought the master 1 for 2p about a week ago !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Demonslayor </DIV>

Majorminor

10-20-2005, 08:42 AM

Could this be the start of something good. Thank you dev's for hearing us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Artorius_

10-20-2005, 01:35 PM

Actual changes are nice, but the principal issue have been forgotten sorry. Paladins (crusaders in general)are another tank as Gaurdians, monks, brawler or zerkers. The main problem now is tha in raid scenarios we are behind rest of tanks. Why? simple. Witgh teh nerf of stuns in epics mobs , we cant stun them. With this, we cant self ward or self heal efficiently to compensate the less mitigation and avoidance than a guardian for example, epics mobs interrupts the most time our cast now. We need somthing to balance this scenario, and is being forgotten giving us nosenses as a bit more dps that is ok, but the main issue to be addressed is the tanking balance between tanks. Now we are the worst tank of the tree, we have less mitigation and avoidance. We cant stun now epics mobs to self ward or self heal and compensate. Then? Can we tank an epic mob? Sure is posible but worst than the rest of tanks. And this is the principal issue that must be reviewed.

jb-

10-20-2005, 02:08 PM

<DIV>I shouldn't have gone for any str. on the respec, because with this new boost I can self-buff to 450. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

jb-

10-20-2005, 02:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Artorius_ wrote: Actual changes are nice, but the principal issue have been forgotten sorry. Paladins (crusaders in general)are another tank as Gaurdians, monks, brawler or zerkers. The main problem now is tha in raid scenarios we are behind rest of tanks. Why? simple. Witgh teh nerf of stuns in epics mobs , we cant stun them. With this, we cant self ward or self heal efficiently to compensate the less mitigation and avoidance than a guardian for example, epics mobs interrupts the most time our cast now. We need somthing to balance this scenario, and is being forgotten giving us nosenses as a bit more dps that is ok, but the main issue to be addressed is the tanking balance between tanks. Now we are the worst tank of the tree, we have less mitigation and avoidance. We cant stun now epics mobs to self ward or self heal and compensate. Then? Can we tank an epic mob? Sure is posible but worst than the rest of tanks. And this is the principal issue that must be reviewed. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry, but I think we're adequate tanks compared to all the others. Plus we can ward/heal just as good as healers, and do decent damage. So quit wanting it ALL. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Just my thoughts though, and FYI we're not worst than all the others when it comes to tanking epics. Try watching a paladin tank a mob with magic resist vs. another class, and the other class will get owned. Same goes for them with their resists though.

Agent40

10-20-2005, 05:57 PM

Artorius, I agree with Horatious. As i stated in another post, I successfully tanked Venekor. Albeit, he is T5, he still packs a whopping punch. Pallies are just a good a tank as zerkers or guards. And stuns shouldn't be what you're basing our tanking abilities around. It does depend on what you're tanking and what types of dmg the mob does, but overall, we are just as good as any other tank. period. all this whining of otherwise is making my head hurt.

RiotActer

10-20-2005, 06:02 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Artorius_ wrote:Actual changes are nice, but the principal issue have been forgotten sorry. Paladins (crusaders in general)are another tank as Gaurdians, monks, brawler or zerkers. The main problem now is tha in raid scenarios we are behind rest of tanks. Why? simple. Witgh teh nerf of stuns in epics mobs , we cant stun them. With this, we cant self ward or self heal efficiently to compensate the less mitigation and avoidance than a guardian for example, epics mobs interrupts the most time our cast now. We need somthing to balance this scenario, and is being forgotten giving us nosenses as a bit more dps that is ok, but the main issue to be addressed is the tanking balance between tanks. Now we are the worst tank of the tree, we have less mitigation and avoidance. We cant stun now epics mobs to self ward or self heal and compensate. Then? Can we tank an epic mob? Sure is posible but worst than the rest of tanks. And this is the principal issue that must be reviewed.<hr></blockquote> Bahh, we're better in an utility roll than a MT. We don't have anything that can increase hate with every hit we take EG: Hold The Line. We can tank just as good in a 6 person group as every other tank. Just need to work on your skills is all. Every class has their "must have skill". Our is Amends... Get it to Adept III. Spend a little time hunting rubies. We bring lots of stuff to the raid... Mitigation Increases, heals (although not the best, they can be effective), a ward, rez, hate transfer, and STR + WIS group increase. This while in the MT group.... We also are decent in the MA group. Can peel off adds and keep ourselves or another tank alive. Intercede works cross group and can help lessen the damage done to the MT. Amends is nice to keep on a high DPS class. Makes the MT's job easier.... Me I'd rather use all my skills that smacking the taunt keys over and over... If you are having a hard time getting into a raid I'm sorry... Raids are usually better off with a pally or 2 than throwing another DPS class at it. I my experience most wipes happen right away, not at the middle / end of a raid where DPS classes shine. If a raid does wipe in the middle, it's usually from an add spawn... What good is mage / scout going to do when an Epic x4 add pops behind them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>Message Edited by RiotActer on 10-20-2005 10:02 AM

Rochir

10-20-2005, 06:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Majorminor wrote: Could this be the start of something good. Thank you dev's for hearing us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> One step at a time brother and sister Paladins. +100 or 115 strength is a huge boost for our dps while in our offensive stance. The tier6 armor buff, color and texture changes are huge. We are extremely dependent on our armor now and it desperately needed a major buff. Next items on the agenda are 1. Ranged slot item(s). 2. Shield buff/shield factor bug. The Aegis of hope line of skills should be a shield buff not another chance for avoidance Give us our shield buff back please EQ2 Team! Make our shield factor actually mean something. Why does our avoidance not give us some deflection when we are using a shield? Equipping a tier6 legendary shield give us 0.0% deflection !!!???

RiotActer

10-20-2005, 06:45 PM

lover

10-20-2005, 06:47 PM

This is so kewl! I actually got my full set of Cobalt today as well as the patch goodies - I don't feel quite so fragile now =) Unfortuantely I had to log after getting the armour and haven't had a chance to go test it out in PoF (the last place I was hunting and hits still fresh in my mind). I am VERY keen to get out there and try the new offensive stance after the server comes up again in....oooh around about now! I think the level of *blueness* of the Cobalt rests a LOT of peoples setups - mine shows as a very nice dark blue while my Ebon was as black as pitch. My order of things to happen next if everything goes well: Shield factor needs to have some effect, other wise why not just use the pristine pearl orb which has VERY nice stats <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ranged item slot - just because *they* have all got one and besides sometimes I like pulling with a bow and who said Paladins don't/can't use them =) Rez timer.....

Camor

10-20-2005, 06:56 PM

I would like to disagree with Rochir and the rest of you that think the new vanguard cobalt design/graphics look good. As I see it the new indium armor graphics looks great but the new look on cobalt is just plain awful. The stats change however was needed and could also be expected in order to harmonize t6 armor with the upgrades between previous tiers. First I should say that I love the graphics in EQII and that those were the main reason for me to chose this game over f x World of Warcraft. In EQII the graphics have that wonderful detailed, realistic look that sometimes still make me just lean back in front of the screen and think "awesome"….The colouring and details on every weapon and armor part have had that feeling that they were well thought through and that SOE spent time to make sure the equipment fitted in with the rest of the graphics in the wonderful world they created. My main character is a lvl 52 paladin and he has been wearing vanguard since he dinged lvl 20 sometimes in December 2004. The armor graphics on all those tiers have been amazing and with every new tier the graphics have been a notch better. The details and look of the armour part have been just great. With the old ebon/rubicite armour f x the parts had that black/blueish metallic shiny surface with detailed rusty/golden ornaments. However, yesterday something happened. With the very same settings I have been using for months now I logged in all excited to see the new cobalt graphics that were put in last minute with LU#15. To my horror what I saw was a completely black armored character with no details showing whatsoever on the model, The gloves and gussets had some greyish parts with some big bulky black stripes on them but otherwise all black. From certain angles you could see a dark blue crayonish tone to some parts but that was it. I therefore took the character to some different locations to see what a different light might do to all this. But there was no change, still the same blackish look were no details whatsoever where showing on any the armor parts. After that I started to try if a change in the settings might create a different look on the armor. All I could archieve was a model with a dark blue bulky, blurry look were no details were showing at all. What had been a black blurr now turned into a cartonish clear darkblue look that did not fit in with the rest of the graphics in EQII at all. I also compared the new look of my armor with the graphics on my Rujarkian destrier horse (which look great by the way). On the horse you can clearly see all the wonderful details as plate parts, chainmail, ornament etc on the barding but my cobalt was still just a darkblue blurr. The clear crayonish colour style on the new cobalt just did not fit in with the more discrete "matteish" coulour of the horse and its barding. If you compare the pictures with cobalt chain and indium all the nice details are showing and they just made the chain have a discreet blue tone to it. You can clearly see this lack of detail in the images provided by Rochir in his top post. To actually see the blue tint to the cobalt helm that Rochir refers to takes a lot of effort and good will. This is not a post to flame Rochir, quite the opposite think he provides good pictures and information on the new Master I ability, but just saying that I think SOE completely missed out on the cobalt vanguard remake. What I think you could expect from a game of this magnitude is that SOE put in the effort to make new graphic fit in with the rest of the items in the game. I should not have a graphic issue/computer problem here since I used the same settings (highest detail on character and most other things) before and after LU#15 and the cobalt now just looks awful. To me it seems like it was something created in panic after all the critic on the forums for not having put any new graphic in with DoF for tier 6 weapons and armour. There was another post on these forums about how SOE had put some clear crayonish green colour to certain chainmail parts. Moorgard himself stated there that this was not the colour SOE wanted and that they were looking into it. Now SOE made exactly the same misstake with cobalt but with blue colour this time. Very, very sad and disapointed here… I hope SOE reconsider this and make what is supposed to be the high end armor (except for t6 fabled) for all heavy classes also the best looking heavy armor of all tiers and not just a cheap blue/grey combo with no details visible even with character detail set to highest setting. Camoran Lvl 52 paladin Antonia Bayle server

Yrield

10-20-2005, 07:19 PM

<blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Majorminor wrote: Could this be the start of something good. Thank you dev's for hearing us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> One step at a time brother and sister Paladins. +100 or 115 strength is a huge boost for our dps while in our offensive stance. The tier6 armor buff, color and texture changes are huge. We are extremely dependent on our armor now and it desperately needed a major buff. Next items on the agenda are 1. Ranged slot item(s). 2. Shield buff/shield factor bug. The Aegis of hope line of skills should be a shield buff not another chance for avoidance Give us our shield buff back please EQ2 Team! Make our shield factor actually mean something. Why does our avoidance not give us some deflection when we are using a shield? Equipping a tier6 legendary shield give us 0.0% deflection !!!??? <div></div><hr></blockquote>2. Aegis of hope line is another chance to avoid since day1 (pre-revamp: chance to avoid using the paladin's avoidance, +kite shield to caster, +mitigation to target ---- post-revamp: chance to avoid using the paladin's avoidance, +defense to caster) 2.1. Shield buff dont exist anymore, in fact block avoidance is the only type of avoidance that can't be buffed in the game, you can only buff base avoidance, parry and deflection (+10 kite shield would be useless since the sole purpose of the buff is the make your shield skill 2 level highter and shield don't scale as you level up keeping the same block % for 15 levels. Plus "kite shield" skill dont exist anymore so it can't be directly buffed) 2.2. The only class in the game using the Deflection skill is Brawler, shield don't affect deflection. Brawlers have 0.0% block since they can't use shield<div></div>

Hardcou

10-20-2005, 07:45 PM

Hi all Regarding Epic raiding only. I would have to agree with Artorius. I have been 60 for a long time now and I am pretty much as good as it gets gear and spell wise. I have raided a lot of T6 content and I am yet to find a MOB that I tank better than a Guardian, Bruiser, Berzerker. Although there is probably unfound Epics out there but I doubt that I would find my self doing better against them. Even when you tank a target that have magic or divine attacks they still do high physical damage. While Paladins have increased resistance against magic and divine a Guardian’s physical mitigation works on all MOB’s Sure, if they make an Epic target that ONLY do magic or divine then we would be the primary tank choice. We lack a short mitigation boost skill. <UL> <LI> <DIV>Nothing holds agro better than I Paladin, yes I totally agree but it’s hard keeping agro when you are dead</DIV></LI> <LI> <DIV>But we ward and heal really good, yea we do but a 700 ward don’t make up getting hit for 6-7k piercing damage, even if you would manage to get it of between the stuns and interrupts.</DIV></LI></UL> Sorry to burst the bubble for any Pally with an Epic raid tank aspiration, but this is my experience from doing REAL raid tanking and not theories. I truly believe SOE wanted Paladins to be the first tank choice against our suitable targets but failed to get the balance right, giving us an extra boost to magic and divine just don’t cut it. And our wisdom pool don’t help enough either. The real problem is if the devs would give us mitigation close to an Guardian a Paladin would become an unstoppable class when it comes to soloing and very hard to kill in PvP, so in a way our heals and wards is holding us back. One way to fix it would be to give us a defensive stance that makes us unable to heal and ward. Giving us a STR boost to increase our DPS is going in the wrong direction if the devs are serious about making Paladin a real tank class IMO. Well all that said in the eyes of an Epic raider, I do think that a Paladin is great in group.Paladins can fill the spot of a secondary healer, great main assist tank or plain group tank, played right a Paladin keeps agro better than any tank.So all Paladins that won’t be raiding high end epic targets, congratulations you will have good use of the extra strength. I however hope they end up making Paladins work as raid tanks like they said they would.

Kale

10-20-2005, 10:52 PM

<blockquote><hr>Hardcourt wrote:Hi all Regarding Epic raiding only. I would have to agree with Artorius. I have been 60 for a long time now and I am pretty much as good as it gets gear and spell wise. I have raided a lot of T6 content and I am yet to find a MOB that I tank better than a Guardian, Bruiser, Berzerker. Although there is probably unfound Epics out there but I doubt that I would find my self doing better against them. Even when you tank a target that have magic or divine attacks they still do high physical damage. While Paladins have increased resistance against magic and divine a Guardian’s physical mitigation works on all MOB’s Sure, if they make an Epic target that ONLY do magic or divine then we would be the primary tank choice. We lack a short mitigation boost skill. <ul> <li> <div>Nothing holds agro better than I Paladin, yes I totally agree but it’s hard keeping agro when you are dead</div></li> <li> <div>But we ward and heal really good, yea we do but a 700 ward don’t make up getting hit for 6-7k piercing damage, even if you would manage to get it of between the stuns and interrupts.</div></li></ul> Sorry to burst the bubble for any Pally with an Epic raid tank aspiration, but this is my experience from doing REAL raid tanking and not theories. I truly believe SOE wanted Paladins to be the first tank choice against our suitable targets but failed to get the balance right, giving us an extra boost to magic and divine just don’t cut it. And our wisdom pool don’t help enough either. The real problem is if the devs would give us mitigation close to an Guardian a Paladin would become an unstoppable class when it comes to soloing and very hard to kill in PvP, so in a way our heals and wards is holding us back. One way to fix it would be to give us a defensive stance that makes us unable to heal and ward. Giving us a STR boost to increase our DPS is going in the wrong direction if the devs are serious about making Paladin a real tank class IMO. Well all that said in the eyes of an Epic raider, I do think that a Paladin is great in group.Paladins can fill the spot of a secondary healer, great main assist tank or plain group tank, played right a Paladin keeps agro better than any tank.So all Paladins that won’t be raiding high end epic targets, congratulations you will have good use of the extra strength. I however hope they end up making Paladins work as raid tanks like they said they would. <div></div><hr></blockquote> Well said. I second that post. I disagree that the next major focus should be what Rochir thinks (range slot then shield factor). I'd rather see our ability to MT epic content addressed. The range slot item will help from a stats point of view, but who really thinks our problems are all stat-based? When it comes right down to it, what differentiates us from other tanks are our heals and wards, and under an epic tanking situation they are unacceptable tools for getting the job done. But they are our tools. I think we need our tools to be better suited for the job. Hardcourt makes a nifty suggestion about the defensive stance. I am thinking a tweak of that idea might be in order: Defensive Stance: Instead of providing a STR/INT boost like Offensive, it should provide a STA/WIS increase (hit points, some power, and resists all in one shot), lower offensive output & raise defensive ability (as it does now), and then finally: significantly reduce casting times on our wards & heals and give us a boost to Focus, all to help offset interruption of our critical tools for tanking. In the end, we should be able to tank epic content as well as any other plate wearing class. But what should make it fun is that we do so by different means than our bretheren. Right now, our means are not good enough to come to a common end... <div></div>

Rochir

10-20-2005, 11:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hardcourt wrote: Hi all Regarding Epic raiding only. I would have to agree with Artorius. I have been 60 for a long time now and I am pretty much as good as it gets gear and spell wise. I have raided a lot of T6 content and I am yet to find a MOB that I tank better than a Guardian, Bruiser, Berzerker. Although there is probably unfound Epics out there but I doubt that I would find my self doing better against them. Even when you tank a target that have magic or divine attacks they still do high physical damage. While Paladins have increased resistance against magic and divine a Guardian’s physical mitigation works on all MOB’s Sure, if they make an Epic target that ONLY do magic or divine then we would be the primary tank choice. We lack a short mitigation boost skill. <UL> <LI> <DIV>Nothing holds agro better than I Paladin, yes I totally agree but it’s hard keeping agro when you are dead</DIV></LI> <LI> <DIV>But we ward and heal really good, yea we do but a 700 ward don’t make up getting hit for 6-7k piercing damage, even if you would manage to get it of between the stuns and interrupts.</DIV></LI></UL> Sorry to burst the bubble for any Pally with an Epic raid tank aspiration, but this is my experience from doing REAL raid tanking and not theories. I truly believe SOE wanted Paladins to be the first tank choice against our suitable targets but failed to get the balance right, giving us an extra boost to magic and divine just don’t cut it. And our wisdom pool don’t help enough either. The real problem is if the devs would give us mitigation close to an Guardian a Paladin would become an unstoppable class when it comes to soloing and very hard to kill in PvP, so in a way our heals and wards is holding us back. One way to fix it would be to give us a defensive stance that makes us unable to heal and ward. Giving us a STR boost to increase our DPS is going in the wrong direction if the devs are serious about making Paladin a real tank class IMO. Well all that said in the eyes of an Epic raider, I do think that a Paladin is great in group.Paladins can fill the spot of a secondary healer, great main assist tank or plain group tank, played right a Paladin keeps agro better than any tank.So all Paladins that won’t be raiding high end epic targets, congratulations you will have good use of the extra strength. I however hope they end up making Paladins work as raid tanks like they said they would. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Reality check here. The EQ2 Team is not going to revamp the entire combat system to make Paladins better able to handle raid content. What they will do at this time is respond to specific concerns. We wil never get anywhere by comparing ourselves to other subclasses. So what can we do to make the Paladin better? We can do just that, focus on specific, attainable objectives for improving the Paladin. let me ask all of you this: Do the changes to tier6 vangaurd armor improve our ability to handle raid content? To me the answer is clearly yes. Do the changes to our offensive stance improve our ability to solo, tank in small groups or act as dps in raids? To me the answer is clearly yes. We got most of what we wanted/needed. The key to taking less damage when tanking any raid mob is our shield. We are never going to get avoidance like brawlers have but we have something that they dont have, a shield. Clearly shield block is broken, we have no way to buff it. It can easily be turned on. All the devs have to do is switch it on and decide how much to give us. How much we get should depend on the quality of our shield (shield factor) and our shield buff. I really dont care whether they give us shield block or shield deflection but they need to give us some way to buff our shield. Our shield should work better against all mobs, especially raid mobs than it does. Right now we have the lowest avoidance of any plate fighter. That is because we have no shield buff and our shield factor does nothing. The Aegis of Hope line of CAs actually buffed our shield to one level above our character level. This is the only game where I have played a Paladin that we did not get a shield buff. If they do give us our shield buff back it absolutely should work on raid mobs, maybe not as well as normal mobs but it should work on raid mobs. The Paladins shield is the symbol of his or her faith. Other subclasses carry a shield for utility. For Paladins, our shield defines who we are. In medival times, the Holy Knight would have the symbol of his faith engraved on his shield. We should have a skill that improves our faith or our shield (in Diablo II they called it Holy Shield). We need a shield buff in EQ2. We have a line of CAs that were shield buffs before the combat changes, Aegis of Hope, Unwavering Faith etc. We have a Paladin combat art called Unwavering Faith that does not enhance our shield!!?? We need them back and designed in a way that enhances our shield, the symbol of the Paladins faith. Message Edited by Rochir on 10-20-2005 02:51 PM

djhbeek

10-21-2005, 12:08 AM

disagree entirely with that. the whole point is that when you're deciding who will MT a raid mob, you compare each classes strengths and weaknesses ... it's just how it works ... i don't see how we are any significantly helped in raids by a change that boosted EVERY PLATE TANK. They all still mitigate better than us. I think we got helped out more by the Epic melee damage nerf, but that's probably not enough to make it so that caster mobs do MOSTLY spell damage. which is really what is needed to have the game meet the stated goals for raid pallies ... as far as DPS on raids go, you'd still be far better off bringing a scout or mage ... <div></div>

Yrield

10-21-2005, 12:42 AM

<blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr>*snip* <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> Reality check here. The EQ2 Team is not going to revamp the entire combat system to make Paladins better able to handle raid content. What they will do at this time is respond to specific concerns. We wil never get anywhere by comparing ourselves to other subclasses. So what can we do to make the Paladin better? We can do just that, focus on specific, attainable objectives for improving the Paladin. let me ask all of you this: Do the changes to tier6 vangaurd armor improve our ability to handle raid content? To me the answer is clearly yes. Do the changes to our offensive stance improve our ability to solo, tank in small groups or act as dps in raids? To me the answer is clearly yes. We got most of what we wanted/needed. The key to taking less damage when tanking any raid mob is our shield. We are never going to get avoidance like brawlers have but we have something that they dont have, a shield. Clearly shield block is broken, we have no way to buff it. It can easily be turned on. All the devs have to do is switch it on and decide how much to give us. How much we get should depend on the quality of our shield (shield factor) and our shield buff. I really dont care whether they give us shield block or shield deflection but they need to give us some way to buff our shield. Our shield should work better against all mobs, especially raid mobs than it does. Right now we have the lowest avoidance of any plate fighter. That is because we have no shield buff and our shield factor does nothing. The Aegis of Hope line of CAs actually buffed our shield to one level above our character level. This is the only game where I have played a Paladin that we did not get a shield buff. If they do give us our shield buff back it absolutely should work on raid mobs, maybe not as well as normal mobs but it should work on raid mobs. The Paladins shield is the symbol of his or her faith. Other subclasses carry a shield for utility. For Paladins, our shield defines who we are. In medival times, the Holy Knight would have the symbol of his faith engraved on his shield. We should have a skill that improves our faith or our shield (in Diablo II they called it Holy Shield). We need a shield buff in EQ2. We have a line of CAs that were shield buffs before the combat changes, Aegis of Hope, Unwavering Faith etc. We have a Paladin combat art called Unwavering Faith that does not enhance our shield!!?? We need them back and designed in a way that enhances our shield, the symbol of the Paladins faith. <div></div>Message Edited by Rochir on 10-20-2005 02:51 PM<hr></blockquote>Unwavering Faith v1 and Unwavering faith v2 give almost the same gain in avoidance, ±2% We have the lowest avoidance of the plate tank because we give up PARRY for WISDOM on our defensive stance Some math here: i have 42% avoidance in def stance, add 19 pts to parry, 19x0.3=5.7, 42+5.7 = 47.7%, somewhat the same avoidance than a warrior self-buffed Devs say it, paladin trade physical avoidance/mitigation for arcane avoidance/mitigation. Can paladin raid tank a melee mob ? yes, but warriors do it better Should a warrior be able to raid tank a caster mob ? yes, but paladin should do it better* *: if this situation is not true, we are not balanced, we concede an edge to the warrior for physical avoidance/miti. We need our edge for arcane avoidance/miti IN RAID SITUATION. And i dont talk about Divine and Magic only, SKs should out-tank us on disease based mob, we should out-tank Sks on divine/magic mob. Because of our highter spell avoidance, Crusaders should have the edge on cold/heat/mental/poison with the correct set of gears over a warrior with comparable gears. That is balance <div></div>

Rochir

10-21-2005, 05:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> djhbeek wrote: disagree entirely with that. the whole point is that when you're deciding who will MT a raid mob, you compare each classes strengths and weaknesses ... it's just how it works ... i don't see how we are any significantly helped in raids by a change that boosted EVERY PLATE TANK. They all still mitigate better than us. I think we got helped out more by the Epic melee damage nerf, but that's probably not enough to make it so that caster mobs do MOSTLY spell damage. which is really what is needed to have the game meet the stated goals for raid pallies ... as far as DPS on raids go, you'd still be far better off bringing a scout or mage ... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I am curious, how can crusaders possibly out-stat (in terms of pure tanking stats; agi, str, sta) warriors and brawlers? There is more to tanking than those 3 stats. We also need wis and int. We need balanced stats to be strongest. Fixing shield factor/shield buff and ranged slot should be next for Paladins. Revamping crusader stats would mean revamping all of the fighter subclasses. I dont want to be a warrior or brawler, I want to be a better Crusader/Paladin. Message Edited by Rochir on 10-20-2005 08:42 PM

dAb

10-21-2005, 07:44 AM

imo we tank just as well as guards. yes they have a little advantage on mitigation. but hey. after this nerf even a scout can tank those trash raid mobs in SC.

djhbeek

10-21-2005, 05:37 PM

<blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> djhbeek wrote:disagree entirely with that. the whole point is that when you're deciding who will MT a raid mob, you compare each classes strengths and weaknesses ... it's just how it works ...i don't see how we are any significantly helped in raids by a change that boosted EVERY PLATE TANK. They all still mitigate better than us. I think we got helped out more by the Epic melee damage nerf, but that's probably not enough to make it so that caster mobs do MOSTLY spell damage. which is really what is needed to have the game meet the stated goals for raid pallies ...as far as DPS on raids go, you'd still be far better off bringing a scout or mage ... <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I am curious, how can crusaders possibly out-stat (in terms of pure tanking stats; agi, str, sta) warriors and brawlers? There is more to tanking than those 3 stats. We also need wis and int. We need balanced stats to be strongest. Fixing shield factor/shield buff and ranged slot should be next for Paladins. Revamping crusader stats would mean revamping all of the fighter subclasses. I dont want to be a warrior or brawler, I want to be a better Crusader/Paladin. <div></div>Message Edited by Rochir on 10-20-2005 08:42 PM<hr></blockquote>we WOULD need balanced stats if they worked as advertised ... wis seems to have a minimal effect at this point ...<div></div>

Hardcou

10-21-2005, 06:00 PM

Hi To answer Rochir questions. Do the changes to tier6 vanguard armour improve our ability to handle raid content? Yes of course it does, as it will for all Plate tanks. Do the changes to our offensive stance improve our ability to solo, tank in small groups or act as dps in raids? Absolutely, I can’t find anyone saying anything else, I also stated that Paladins with out ambitions to tank epic targets are to be congratulated. Although the DPS increase isn’t as big as you all think with lowered auto attack, skill, soft cap on STR and the fact that about half of our spells are combat spells. Looking at my parced damage it is a small increase but it mainly balances our two damage skill trees, combat and spell arts. I think that’s all well and good, but do not think it’s this big increase in total DPS. I wouldn’t mind Devs balancing our raid tank capabilities trough our shields, however I do not think the whole solution is there. Someone said we tank better on targets that are arcane based, boy is he/she is up for a rude awakening. I still believe that the answer is in our ability to mitigate Magic and Divine MOB’s, the Devs stated that Epic targets will have their whole damage based on a certain damage type. This meaning that a MOB that are poison based would do poison based spell attacks AND poison based melee attacks, so if a raid force would face a target that is totally magic/divine damage based then and first then a Paladin would be the clear choice of tank. I only know of one MOB in PoF that is tuned to do only one type of damage and that MOB is trash. I will give you all a example, Terrorantula is a poison based epic target BUT he also does HUGE piercing damage, Bruisers is the poison based warrior archetype BUT if you get a Guardian with all the ways you can to buff poison resistance up the Guardian will be the best choice as a tank, all because they are the only class that will not get one shooted (or close) by the piercing damage. The Devs plans before PoF/combat revamp was to end the era of the unstoppable tank being the only option to take down the Epic targets, only times there was anything else than a Guardian tanking was when there was no Raid capable Guardian around. The Devs plan was to see other fighter classes’ tank Epic raids depending on that class specialisation, I think we still can get there but it requires tweaking. Regards

Nurta

10-21-2005, 06:12 PM

It's sad but everything Hardcourt is saying is absolutely true. We haven't raided all *that* much since LU13 but from those we have done, Guards are still tops for targets. I'm very happy that STR was added to our offense but unless something is changed with the way we mitigate I certainly don't expect to see a Paladin out front tanking any of our raids.

Kale

10-21-2005, 08:02 PM

<blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote: We got most of what we wanted/needed. Message Edited by Rochir on 10-20-2005 02:51 PM<hr></blockquote> Man... You're a riot. I love how you think you speak for all Paladins. Your posts are always entertaining, if nothing else, because you think you are the figurehead for our class. I've got news for you: you're not. So stop trying. Maybe you're getting what you want. I'm happy for you. But not all of us subscribe to the Rochir School Of What A Paladin Should Be. I didn't choose a Paladin to solo. I chose a Paladin to be a premiere raid tank. Maybe that's my fault, but I lay the blame squarely on SOE who said before the game even was in Beta that all tanks would be able to "do the job". Our job is to tank - not just solo mobs, not just single group encounters, but raid content. That's what you have tanks for - to hold up to Epic mobs. <blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote: <blockquote> The EQ2 Team is not going to revamp the entire combat system to make Paladins better able to handle raid content. </blockquote>Message Edited by Rochir on 10-20-2005 02:51 PM<hr></blockquote> Who said anything about revamping the combat system? We're talking about making our existing tools more capable of doing the job. You're the one talking about revamping the way shields work. If anyone is talking about revamping anything, it's you. I'm talking about taking what we currently have and making it work better under a raid situation. I play a Paladin because I want to Ward and Heal, not just be a straight meatshield. I want the added complexity when tanking mobs that a Palaind is required to deal with. We don't just stand there and watch our HP go down. We have to actively use our wards and heals to maintain health. But our tools our insufficient for the task when we're dealing with raid content and Epics. They need to work better. I think, one thing happening here is that you are forgetting this is SOE's game, and this is their definition of what a Paladin should do. I don't necessarily think Wards and Heals should be as big of a part of a Paladin's repetoir as they are in EQ2, but I am not a designer. I am a player. So I am willing to accept what they deem are the proper tools for a Paladin and play the class as they intended. Instead of working to change our tools, you should be working to enhance the tools we have. SOE has designed our class, and Wards and Heals are the tools we've been given to do our job. We should be working to have our tools improved so that we can perform better in raid situations. Who cares if we never have the avoidance of a Brawler? I sure don't. I don't even need to avoid damage. My tools are Wards and Heals. I want my tools to work as good as any other plate tank's tools work for them. Finally: Rochir - I don't mind your opinions. I just wish you'd quit trying to act like your opinion is the only right one, and that you speak for the whole Paladin community. You don't. You're coming off as if you're the only guy who knows what's good for us, and that's just not true. <div></div>

Tur

10-21-2005, 08:45 PM

I think all plate class (MIT) raid tanks are having a tough time right now (I know I am). The OP of this thread has some valid points: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=74843" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=74843</A> I strongly favor the temporary short-term MIT buff idea (mentioned above) as well as a meaningful shield factor. The current raid mob stratagy on my server is having a Pally MT and the highest DPS wizzy in the main group (wizzy going all-out). The thinking being: Amends on the wizzy generates more hate to the pally the more DPS the wizzy does. Aggro management neatly solved. The trouble is: living through those first massive Physical Damage attacks. I know I rarely do no matter how many healers are in the group. Maybe things are working as intended and we simply haven't figured out the proper method but somehow I doubt it. Something seems borked.

Rochir

10-21-2005, 09:58 PM

<DIV>I agree that our tanking stats need adjusting/buffing including mitigation/sta/str/agi and the effect of wis on our resists/power pool. I am not certain that the devs will ever give us what we want in those areas. Until they do, we need to set specific, attainable goals for enhancements for our subclass. All plate armor fighters needed a handcrafted/legendary armor buff and they got one. We need a str buff for our offensive stance and we got one. Now we need to focus on what will make us better Paladins. The biggest problem Paladins are having right now in RAIDs is we get hit too often and take too much melee damage from RAID mobs. If our shield is enhanced to be what it should be that will solve some of that problem. The best way to reduce the amount of damage we take is to not get hit or for the amount of damage we take from a blow to be drastically reduced. I do not think our ability to dodge blows should be increased. We are holy kinghts not gi-wearing brawlers. I do think the ability of our shield to block and or absorb the damage from blows should be increased.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am confused about the 4 parts of our avoidance and how they relate to our shield. Avoidance consists of the following 4 values; base, block, parry and deflection. A shield could be used to block and deflect blows. I think that parry is concerned with using your weapon to block. Block would seem to be obvious, ie. the blows blocked by the shield. What is deflection where a shield is concerned? Why is deflection locked at 0.0% on my legendary tier6 kite shield? Shield factor doesnt currently do anything which is a major problem for plate armor fighters. What should shield factor do? Should our shield increase our mitigation or just block? The problem that Paladins have specifically again is that our shield buff is no longer a shield buff and even if it were it probably wouldnt have any effect because shield factor is broken anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Most Paladins carry shields, especially when tanking raid mobs. Other subclasses carry a shield for utilitarian purposes. For Paladins, our shield defines who we are, it is the symbol of the Paladins faith. We should have a shield/faith buff. What we need is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Fix shield factor so that it enchances the ability of our shield to block blows and absorb damage. This should work for all shield-carrying plate-armor fighters (scouts too). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Give us a shield buff that actually buffs our shield, not just gives us another chance to avoid a blow. Our shield buff should enhance ALL of the capabilites (what exactly are or should those capabilities be?) of our shield. The number used to measure that enhancement should be shield factor. Our shield buff should increase our shield factor. The downside of our shield buff could be increased interruptions. We would be being hit and interrupted but taking little or no damage when the blow is blocked by our sheild. For example, our ward could be interrupted more often because we are blocking more blows but we would not need our ward as often because we would be taking little if any damage from the blocked blows.</DIV></DIV> I have a couple of questions: Should our shield increase our mitigation? Should we take reduced or mitigated damage from a direct, powerful hit on our shield?Message Edited by Rochir on 10-21-2005 01:07 PM

djhbeek

10-21-2005, 10:40 PM

well ... they are never gonna make us mit/avoid like other tanks, that's just not the "vision" for the class ... at this point i think the main focus would be to tune the raid mobs so that the "vision" is a reality. make resists meaningful by making the MAJORITY of damage from caster raid mobs be the caster's damage type ... possibly by switching the damage type of their autoattack, possibly by gimping their melee and raising their spell damage. if raid mobs were adjusted, this could be done without making pallies over-powered in group settings where we are mitigating fine as is ... <div></div>

Anzak

10-21-2005, 10:43 PM

Not going to get in the shield debate here. Though Deflection is a brawler ability thus why all non-brawlers are locked at 0%. Shields affect block only. Now the tier and shield factor and type need to play in there somehow just not sure what that is or should be. As for raiding. I'm willing to to accept that we take more damage than a Guard in the same armor assuming they have a tower shield vs our kite shield. But this differance in damage should be equal to the amount of damage we can ward/heal over 15 minutes (LH line recast) And this is not just assuming that we are just spamming heals since in reality we are taunting and saving power over the course of the fight so it needs to be the amount we would realisticly heal over 15 minutes. Though a single healer more than makes up for that and so why not just add an extra healer to the raid. <div></div>

djhbeek

10-21-2005, 10:47 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:Though a single healer more than makes up for that and so why not just add an extra healer to the raid. <div></div><hr></blockquote>right ... i think the "we can heal so we mitigate less" argument works fine for solo/groups, but breaks down in raids. i like the "certain tanks for certain mobs" vision for raids ... i just don't think the current implementation hits that mark ... IMHO pally wards/heals are basically a non-factor in an x4 raid with 6 or more healers, so our advantage should be to be able to not get one-hit by magic casters, etc ...<div></div>Message Edited by djhbeek on 10-21-2005 02:48 PM

MeridianR

10-21-2005, 11:01 PM

<blockquote><hr>djhbeek wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:Though a single healer more than makes up for that and so why not just add an extra healer to the raid. <div></div><hr></blockquote>right ... i think the "we can heal so we mitigate less" argument works fine for solo/groups, but breaks down in raids. i like the "certain tanks for certain mobs" vision for raids ... i just don't think the current implementation hits that mark ... IMHO pally wards/heals are basically a non-factor in an x4 raid with 6 or more healers, so our advantage should be to be able to not get one-hit by magic casters, etc ...<div></div>Message Edited by djhbeek on 10-21-2005 02:48 PM<hr></blockquote>Exactly. The MT in a lot of raids, is mainly stun locked down for periods of time.....meaning even if the ward was worthwhile for stopping damage, we couldn't get it off anyway. A 910 Ward (Demo of Devotion Adept 3) which will get 1 shotted off, doesn't make up for the fact that for the other X amount of time (20 secs recast I believe) we are taking full damage, that is more then other tanks, because of the lack of mitigation/avoid. Our wards and heals making up for the lack of HP buffs, might be a valid comparison. Our wards and heals making up for our lack of mitigation / avoidance is not. <div></div>

Anzak

10-21-2005, 11:02 PM

Yes exactly. Also our mit is not that far off of any other plate tank so pure melee Raid mobs should only do slightly more damage than they do to other plate tanks. For pure melee the difference should be close to what we can reasonably ward/heal for. We give up the tower shield and some defense to gain the ability to heal and ward. The gain needs to be eqaul to what is lost. I think resists are messed up right now. Since attack types that use resists mitigate based on your resist rather than your mitigation then your base resist value across the board should be 90% of your mit value then let your buffs build on that. This way if your base mitigation is 50% then all your resists should base at 45% so you can do your job in most settings but with your self buff you can get your key resists up to 60% or even 70% This way against mobs which are heavy in one type of damage you will excel but at that same time Melee and a secondary type of damage are not going to one shot you. For example a Wizard mob which is heavy arcane damage and at raid levels will have insane Melee to make it balanced for the mob. He is able to cast fire and ice based spells as well which a pally does not normally have high resists for these and while you could buff them you are going to be focused on keeping your arcane as high as possbile and let the others fall behind this leaves you take much more damage from the odd attack that is a different type which if your resist was 90% of your normal Mit it would not be nearly as bad and less chance to one shot you. <div></div>