No Shield Buff - Major Oversight!

[Rochir]

<DIV>I really liked the Aegis of Hope/Unwavering Faith line of spells before the combat changes.    This is the first time that I have played a Paladin in any RPG that did not have a shield buff of some sort.   The shield buff should:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Increase defense.</DIV> <DIV>2.  Increase shield block (shield factor).</DIV> <DIV>3.  Possibly lower offense or damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please fix the shield factor bug and give us our shield buff back :smileysad:</DIV>

[ChuMann]

<P>Ummm... isn't this EXACTLY what the defensive stance does?  I get increased defense, increased avoidance, and decreased offensive capabilities.  I'm not quite sure what else you're looking for here......</P> <P> </P> <P>Chumann, 52nd Paladin</P> <P>Highkeep </P> <p>Message Edited by ChuMann on <span class=date_text>10-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:26 AM</span>

[Dwergux]

<span><blockquote><hr>ChuMann wrote:<div></div> <p>Ummm... isn't this EXACTLY what the defensive stance does?  I get increased defense, increased avoidance, and decreased offensive capabilities.  I'm not quite sure what else you're looking for here......</p> <p>Chumann, 52nd Paladin</p> <p>Highkeep </p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by ChuMann on <span class="date_text">10-17-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:26 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Not really....you can go in defensive stance with a 2 handed weapon. Giving paladins a shield buff (which requires equiping a shield) for inproved defense would be nice, (especially if it would stack with defensive stance)</span><div></div>

[H3llburn]

Or maybe just add it to the defensive buff as a tweak with a hair more mitigation and avoid for going defensive and using a shield like defensive would suggest.

[BlackW]

<DIV>I have a fundamental disagreement with the EQ2 Team on shields in eq2, especially for Paladins.   EQ2 does not have the concept of shield block in the game.   It is the only game where I have played Paladin that did not have this concept.   EQ2 just has the catchall avoidance.   Avoidance is not the same thing as block.   If you block, you get hit but you dont take any damage, the shield blocks the damage.   Block is different conceptually from avoidance.   I think that shield factor should be shield block and it should be calculated separately from avoidance.   Avoidance is just not getting hit.   Paladins should have a buff that gives us higher shield block (shield factor) but not higher avoidance.    The downside of shield block could be interrupt.   We would be interrupted when hit but not take any damage if it is blocked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a problem with the idea that a shield could increase avoidance.   How could it possibly keep us from getting hit?   We would still get hit but the shield would take the damage if the blow were blocked.   That makes more sense to me.  for Paladins with a shield, the blow should register like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MOB hits Paladin:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Check avoidance.</DIV> <DIV>2. Check parry/block.</DIV> <DIV>3. Mitigate if necessary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our shield buff should enhance shield block.  Shield block should be determined by shield factor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>10-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:57 PM</span>

[BlackW]

<P>Ok, I responded to my own post with my other account.   Myself and rochir are the same person.  I was not trying to bump my own thread.  I just forget who I am logged in as sometimes.  Here is how I try to post:</P> <P>rochir - paladin issues</P> <P>blackweb - crusader issues</P>

[djhbeek]

cheer! ^^ pls note this was posted by my lv 25 necro ... not my pally ... they share an account, so it gets confusing. (just some harmless fun BW =p) <div></div>

[Khar Ni]

If you hover over your Avoidance value in the ui you will notice that it is actually based off 4 different values. They are base avoidance, block, parry, and deflection. Adding a shield increases your block value. To a certain extent they are probably already doing what you are suggesting.

[Rochir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Khar Nihj wrote:<BR>If you hover over your Avoidance value in the ui you will notice that it is actually based off 4 different values. They are base avoidance, block, parry, and deflection. Adding a shield increases your block value. To a certain extent they are probably already doing what you are suggesting.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I still think our shield buff should increase shield block <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have a fundamental disagreement with the EQ2 Team on shields in eq2, especially for Paladins.   EQ2 does not have the concept of shield block in the game.   It is the only game where I have played Paladin that did not have this concept.   EQ2 just has the catchall avoidance.   Avoidance is not the same thing as block.   If you block, you get hit but you dont take any damage, the shield blocks the damage.   Block is different conceptually from avoidance.   I think that shield factor should be shield block and it should be calculated separately from avoidance.   Avoidance is just not getting hit.   Paladins should have a buff that gives us higher shield block (shield factor) but not higher avoidance.    The downside of shield block could be interrupt.   We would be interrupted when hit but not take any damage if it is blocked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a problem with the idea that a shield could increase avoidance.   How could it possibly keep us from getting hit?   We would still get hit but the shield would take the damage if the blow were blocked.   That makes more sense to me.  for Paladins with a shield, the blow should register like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MOB hits Paladin:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Check avoidance.</DIV> <DIV>2. Check parry/block.</DIV> <DIV>3. Mitigate if necessary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our shield buff should enhance shield block.  Shield block should be determined by shield factor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <SPAN class=date_text>10-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:57 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It is true that Paladins (and Shadowknights foos) should have increased Shield skill in thier defensive stances. Tho increaseing sheild block eventually increases your avoidance. Its part of overall avoidance, your ability to parry, shiled block, deflect, and dodge are all part of Avoidance. Whatever your shield block is will be your %chance to block with a shield, but increasing or decreasing that will eventually show an increase or decrease in avoidance.</P> <P>Kojiro - 59th Shadowknight of Lucan D'Lere</P>

[Paintball33]

<DIV>if you block with the shield you still avoided the hit. Sure your shield got hit, but did YOU get hit? no. dont believe me? look at it this way. AVOIDANCE is avoiding DAMAGE, not a hit. If your shield gets hit, IT got hit, not YOU, YOU did not take dmg, YOUR SHIELD took the damage. YOU still avoided the hit by blocking with your shield. You're too picky about wording...</DIV>

[Rochir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Paintball3325 wrote:<BR> <DIV>if you block with the shield you still avoided the hit. Sure your shield got hit, but did YOU get hit? no. dont believe me? look at it this way. AVOIDANCE is avoiding DAMAGE, not a hit. If your shield gets hit, IT got hit, not YOU, YOU did not take dmg, YOUR SHIELD took the damage. YOU still avoided the hit by blocking with your shield. You're too picky about wording...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Block is not the same thing as avoidance.   The way that shield block should work is that we should take a blocked hit but with no damage or drastically reduced damage.  A shield block could also interrupt us.   Avoidance is not taking a hit at all.

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Paintball3325 wrote: <div>if you block with the shield you still avoided the hit. Sure your shield got hit, but did YOU get hit? no. dont believe me? look at it this way. AVOIDANCE is avoiding DAMAGE, not a hit. If your shield gets hit, IT got hit, not YOU, YOU did not take dmg, YOUR SHIELD took the damage. YOU still avoided the hit by blocking with your shield. You're too picky about wording...</div> <hr> </blockquote>Block is not the same thing as avoidance.   The way that shield block should work is that we should take a blocked hit but with no damage or drastically reduced damage.  A shield block could also interrupt us.   Avoidance is not taking a hit at all. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Every time you BLOCK you AVOID taking damage Every time you PARRY you AVOID taking damage Every time you RIPOSTE you AVOID taking damage Every time a brawler DEFLECT he AVOID taking damage Every time the mob MISS you AVOID taking damage Every time you RESIST you AVOID taking damage </span><div></div>

[Majorminor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yrieldom wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rochir wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Paintball3325 wrote:<BR> <DIV>if you block with the shield you still avoided the hit. Sure your shield got hit, but did YOU get hit? no. dont believe me? look at it this way. AVOIDANCE is avoiding DAMAGE, not a hit. If your shield gets hit, IT got hit, not YOU, YOU did not take dmg, YOUR SHIELD took the damage. YOU still avoided the hit by blocking with your shield. You're too picky about wording...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Block is not the same thing as avoidance.   The way that shield block should work is that we should take a blocked hit but with no damage or drastically reduced damage.  A shield block could also interrupt us.   Avoidance is not taking a hit at all. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Every time you BLOCK you AVOID taking damage<BR>Every time you PARRY you AVOID taking damage<BR>Every time you RIPOSTE you AVOID taking damage<BR>Every time a brawler DEFLECT he AVOID taking damage<BR>Every time the mob MISS you AVOID taking damage<BR>Every time you RESIST you AVOID taking damage<BR><BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>agree </P> <P> </P> <P>block=avoid, now to just get the shield to block more then <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Rochir]

<P>Guess where the "additional chance to avoid (block) another attack" psuedo-shield buff came from?   It came from the Paladin in that other MMORPG.   Take a look, its there, nearly word-for-word :smileytongue:   The difference there is that it is a buff on the Paladin himself.   Int EQ2 its just a buff on an ally along with a buff in defense.    It is not really a shield buff at all.    I think we need a shield buff that actually buffs our shield :smileywink:</P> <P>The basic problem is that shield factor does not work.   It doesnt do anything.   Until shield factor is fixed, there is nothing to buff :smileysad:</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class=date_text>10-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:25 PM</span>

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote: <p>Guess where the "additional chance to avoid (block) another attack" psuedo-shield buff from?   It came from the Paladin in that other MMORPG.   Take a look, its there, nearly word-for word :smileytongue:   They basically copied it from that other game.   I really dont think it belongs in EQ2.   I think we need a shield buff that actually buffs our shield :smileywink:</p> <p>The basic problem is that shield factor does not work.   It doesnt do anything.   Until shield factor is fixed, there is nothing to buff :smileysad:</p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">10-23-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:07 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You miss the fact that every other fighter have this line of skill Paladin 60: Resolute Faith: </span>Grants the paladin a chance to shield and ally from melee attacks, by allowing the target a chance to use the paladin's avoidance check after their own avoidance check. This also increases the paladin's defense skill. Shadowknight 60: Devious Evasion: Grants the shadowknight a chance to shield an ally from melee attacks, by allowing the target a chance to use the shadowknight's avoidance check after their own aviodance check. This also increases the shadowknight's parry skill. Monk 60: Tranquil Vision: Grants the monk a chance to shield an ally from melee attacks, by allowing the target a chance to use the monk's avoidance check after their own avoidance check. This also increases the monk's deflection skill. Bruiser 60: Shake Off: Grants the bruiser a chance to shield an ally from melee attacks, by allowing the target a chance to use the bruiser's avoidance check after their own avoidance check. This also increases the bruiser's agility. Berserker 60: Guarded Vehemence: Grants the berserker a chance to shield an ally from melee attacks, by allowing the target a chance to use the berserker's avoidance check after their own avoidance check. This also increases the berserkers agility. Guardian 60: Unyeilding Vigilance: Grants the guardian a chance to shield an ally from melee attacks, by allowing the target a chance to use the guardian's avoidance check after their own avoidance check. This also increases the guardian's parry skill. This line of skill is the same since day one, if target fail an avoidance roll they have x% chances to use the caster avoidance roll i.e: Random_mob try to crush Random_warlock with Wild swing but Random_paladin BLOCK/PARRY/RIPOSTE FYI +10 kite shield before the revamp give the same raw avoidance than +10 defense after the revamp <div></div>

[Majorminor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yrieldom wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </SPAN><BR>i.e: Random_mob try to crush Random_warlock with Wild swing but Random_paladin BLOCK/PARRY/RIPOSTE<BR><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>While I agree that this is how it should be, I don't know if it really does,  I think we don't actualy block/parry/or riposte the attack, The Warlock would just use are avoidance somehow to evade /shrug.  I don't think I have ever seen me actually block or parry any attack using that.<BR>

[Rochir]

<DIV>I really dont care if they use the Aegis of Hope line of CAs or give us a new one, we need a shield buff.   Paladins have the lowest avoidance of any fighter subclass.   It makes no sense that we would be "giving" a chance for avoidance to an ally when we dont have enough ourselves.    What they did was turn our shield buff into a minor defense buff along with a single ally avoidance buff.   I could live with the current line of Aegis of Hope CAs if:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Shield factor were fixed so that it actually worked.</DIV> <DIV>2.  A shield (factor) buff were added to the Aegis of Hope line of CAs for paladins to make up for our painfully low avoidance and weak mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Paladin avoidance and mitigation are balanced with the other fighter subclasses, our shield, the symbol of our faith is how it should be done.   If we get a shield buff it absolutely, positively must work on epic mobs.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class=date_text>10-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:37 PM</span>

[Rochir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Majorminor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yrieldom wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN><BR>i.e: Random_mob try to crush Random_warlock with Wild swing but Random_paladin BLOCK/PARRY/RIPOSTE<BR><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>While I agree that this is how it should be, I don't know if it really does,  I think we don't actualy block/parry/or riposte the attack, The Warlock would just use are avoidance somehow to evade /shrug.  I don't think I have ever seen me actually block or parry any attack using that.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Good point, we cant really see the effect of the Aegis of Hope line of spells on the ally we are giving it to.  I can see block but I never see parry on my own character.   I would like to be able to see and hear when my Paladin parries or blocks an attack.</P> <P>We need a shield buff that enhances the key attributes of our shield.  The upside would be that the paladin would take less damage.   The downside might be that the Paladins shield would block more hits and you could actually see, hear and feel the hits on your character.   The hits on your shield would slow down your ability to cast spells and use combat arts.   It could be a tradeoff, less damage taken for less offense.   I think it would also be cool if our shield buff gave it a glowing effect <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>The primary purpose of such a shield buff would be to enhance the Paladins tanking ability vs tough heroic and epic mobs.    Again, it absolutely, postively must work on epic mobs.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class=date_text>10-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:12 PM</span>

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Majorminor wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Yrieldom wrote:<span> <blockquote>i.e: Random_mob try to crush Random_warlock with Wild swing but Random_paladin BLOCK/PARRY/RIPOSTE </blockquote> <hr> </span></blockquote>While I agree that this is how it should be, I don't know if it really does,  I think we don't actualy block/parry/or riposte the attack, The Warlock would just use are avoidance somehow to evade /shrug.  I don't think I have ever seen me actually block or parry any attack using that. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Good point, we cant really see the effect of the Aegis of Hope line of spells on the ally we are giving it to.  I can see block but I never see parry on my own character.   I would like to be able to see and hear when my Paladin parries or blocks an attack.</p> <p>We need a shield buff that enhances the key attributes of our shield.  The upside would be that the paladin would take less damage.   The downside might be that the Paladins shield would block more hits and you could actually see, hear and feel the hits on your character.   The hits on your shield would slow down your ability to cast spells and use combat arts.   It could be a tradeoff, less damage taken for less offense.   I think it would also be cool if our shield buff gave it a glowing effect <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p><span class="time_text">The primary purpose of such a shield buff would be to enhance the Paladins tanking ability vs tough heroic and epic mobs.    Again, it absolutely, postively must work on epic mobs.</span></p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">10-23-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:12 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Pretty easy to find if you check your log... I have a lot of mob tries to crush bob, but jack parry/block/riposte BTW Paladin are mean to have the lowest avoidance of the fighter tree... its soe's vision Moorgard say: "</span><i>Crusaders do have lower physical avoidance, but they have the highest resists to arcane damage types. Against caster mobs, crusaders have an inherent advantage that most people tend to leave out of their parsing. Again, comparing just physical avoidance and mitigation is far from the only way to judge a tank.</i> <div><i> </i></div> <div><i>Brawlers do exceptionally well tanking single-target encounters that do physical damage. They have less tools to manage multiple mobs at once, however. Obviously they have a lot of self-oriented utility, but abilities like feign death and instill doubt have very limited use in most groups or raids. Their higher damage counters their disadvantages at holding aggro from multiple targets.</i></div> <div><i> </i></div> <div><i>Warriors have the most tools to grab multiple streams of aggro and safely lock them down. This in turn allows other members of the group more freedom to unload damage (especially AoEs) that they might have to manage more carefully with another type of tank. Guardians in particular have the most tools to generate pure hate that gets reliably applied across entire encounters.</i>" We are caster mobs oriented, if you try to improve something for the class, keep that in mind... </div> <div></div>

[RockstR2]

Lol, that's nice to know.  Caster mobs still kick my butt if I let them get casts off though.  In any case, a good group or soloer will have those stuns/interrupts/stifles ready to use whenever they see the mob start casting.

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Yrieldom wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Majorminor wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Yrieldom wrote:<span> <blockquote>i.e: Random_mob try to crush Random_warlock with Wild swing but Random_paladin BLOCK/PARRY/RIPOSTE </blockquote> <hr> </span></blockquote>While I agree that this is how it should be, I don't know if it really does,  I think we don't actualy block/parry/or riposte the attack, The Warlock would just use are avoidance somehow to evade /shrug.  I don't think I have ever seen me actually block or parry any attack using that. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Good point, we cant really see the effect of the Aegis of Hope line of spells on the ally we are giving it to.  I can see block but I never see parry on my own character.   I would like to be able to see and hear when my Paladin parries or blocks an attack.</p> <p>We need a shield buff that enhances the key attributes of our shield.  The upside would be that the paladin would take less damage.   The downside might be that the Paladins shield would block more hits and you could actually see, hear and feel the hits on your character.   The hits on your shield would slow down your ability to cast spells and use combat arts.   It could be a tradeoff, less damage taken for less offense.   I think it would also be cool if our shield buff gave it a glowing effect <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p><span class="time_text">The primary purpose of such a shield buff would be to enhance the Paladins tanking ability vs tough heroic and epic mobs.    Again, it absolutely, postively must work on epic mobs.</span></p><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">10-23-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:12 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Pretty easy to find if you check your log... I have a lot of mob tries to crush bob, but jack parry/block/riposte BTW Paladin are mean to have the lowest avoidance of the fighter tree... its soe's vision Moorgard say: "</span><i>Crusaders do have lower physical avoidance, but they have the highest resists to arcane damage types. Against caster mobs, crusaders have an inherent advantage that most people tend to leave out of their parsing. Again, comparing just physical avoidance and mitigation is far from the only way to judge a tank.</i> <div><i> </i></div> <div><i>Brawlers do exceptionally well tanking single-target encounters that do physical damage. They have less tools to manage multiple mobs at once, however. Obviously they have a lot of self-oriented utility, but abilities like feign death and instill doubt have very limited use in most groups or raids. Their higher damage counters their disadvantages at holding aggro from multiple targets.</i></div> <div><i> </i></div> <div><i>Warriors have the most tools to grab multiple streams of aggro and safely lock them down. This in turn allows other members of the group more freedom to unload damage (especially AoEs) that they might have to manage more carefully with another type of tank. Guardians in particular have the most tools to generate pure hate that gets reliably applied across entire encounters.</i>" We are caster mobs oriented, if you try to improve something for the class, keep that in mind... </div> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah now if only it was a noticeable difference then I would say we have an advantage....but it isn't.  Right now (maybe something isn't working as intended atm), we are not taking much less damage from caster mobs then any other class. We are a strong tank right now, because we can hold aggro in a single group better then most others (an exceptional Guardian/Zerker/SK/Brawler - can hold aggro better over an idiot Paladin).....but if the devs believe we are balanced with the other plate tanks (not even getting into avoid tanks) because we can hold aggro, then that is dumb. We still have less base (without counting Avoid) - HP, Mitigation and Power then the other plate tanks, and Amends (or the line as a whole) is the only thing that is keeping Paladin's even near in line as a MT class. Take away Amends (not saying anyone said we should, just trying to make a point), and we are at best a 6th person filler, when groups can't find anyone else <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div>

[Alluin]

One thing to consider about the 'Block Other' line of spells for all fighters. Monks can easily get 75% avoidance if buffed and in defensive stance, even at lvl 50 with a 33% chance of using their avoidance, thats still equivalent to an effective buff of 25% directly. Most people don't consider a defensive stance when 'support' tanking, but it helps a large amount. Also the avoidance someone else can give you, is more than the buff any tank gets by having their buff on someone else. <div></div>

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<span><blockquote><hr><span></span></blockquote>Yeah now if only it was a noticeable difference then I would say we have an advantage....but it isn't.  Right now (maybe something isn't working as intended atm), we are not taking much less damage from caster mobs then any other class. We are a strong tank right now, because we can hold aggro in a single group better then most others (an exceptional Guardian/Zerker/SK/Brawler - can hold aggro better over an idiot Paladin).....but if the devs believe we are balanced with the other plate tanks (not even getting into avoid tanks) because we can hold aggro, then that is dumb. We still have less base (without counting Avoid) - HP, Mitigation and Power then the other plate tanks, and Amends (or the line as a whole) is the only thing that is keeping Paladin's even near in line as a MT class. Take away Amends (not saying anyone said we should, just trying to make a point), and we are at best a 6th person filler, when groups can't find anyone else <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>What I mean is trying to get a shield buff or any avoidance buff is not the solution to improve the class IMO. If our avoidance go up, warriors and brawlers avoidance go up too, at the end of the day nothing have changed. Devs want us to have an advantage vs caster mobs, so be it, make it REAL. Best chance we have to improve the class is to enforce SOE's vison for class rather than trying to turn the class into a shieldmaster or a ninja in plate. I give up on something important in my core role (avoidance) I fully expect to get a something important to fulfil my core role in return, tanking. And I believe we have amends because of our low DPS, like brawler trade agro for dps</span><div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Yrieldom wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<span><blockquote><hr><span></span></blockquote>Yeah now if only it was a noticeable difference then I would say we have an advantage....but it isn't.  Right now (maybe something isn't working as intended atm), we are not taking much less damage from caster mobs then any other class. We are a strong tank right now, because we can hold aggro in a single group better then most others (an exceptional Guardian/Zerker/SK/Brawler - can hold aggro better over an idiot Paladin).....but if the devs believe we are balanced with the other plate tanks (not even getting into avoid tanks) because we can hold aggro, then that is dumb. We still have less base (without counting Avoid) - HP, Mitigation and Power then the other plate tanks, and Amends (or the line as a whole) is the only thing that is keeping Paladin's even near in line as a MT class. Take away Amends (not saying anyone said we should, just trying to make a point), and we are at best a 6th person filler, when groups can't find anyone else <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>What I mean is trying to get a shield buff or any avoidance buff is not the solution to improve the class IMO. If our avoidance go up, warriors and brawlers avoidance go up too, at the end of the day nothing have changed. Devs want us to have an advantage vs caster mobs, so be it, make it REAL. Best chance we have to improve the class is to enforce SOE's vison for class rather than trying to turn the class into a shieldmaster or a ninja in plate. I give up on something important in my core role (avoidance) I fully expect to get a something important to fulfil my core role in return, tanking. And I believe we have amends because of our low DPS, like brawler trade agro for dps</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Ah I understand, and agree.  We should all work together, to try to get our role as a caster tank to come to fruition....but my fear with that is if we don't have a clear advantage over other tanks, we are going to get left out still, because most Epics still hit for a ton with Crushing/Slashing/Piercing...</span><div></div>

[Rochir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alluin wrote:<BR>One thing to consider about the 'Block Other' line of spells for all fighters.<BR><BR>Monks can easily get 75% avoidance if buffed and in defensive stance, even at lvl 50 with a 33% chance of using their avoidance, thats still equivalent to an effective buff of 25% directly.<BR><BR>Most people don't consider a defensive stance when 'support' tanking, but it helps a large amount. Also the avoidance someone else can give you, is more than the buff any tank gets by having their buff on someone else.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Even when our defensive stance is considered along with the minor defensive buff from the Aeigis of Hope line of CAs is considered, we still have the lowest avoidance and mitigation of any plate tank.  The problem with these CAs is that they provide little benefit to the Paladin.   The only time the avoidance buff helps us is when it is cast by someone else on us.  Why cant we cast some sort of shield-based avoidance buff on ourselves?   We have two really good solo buffs, Gift of Armament and Amends.   If I had not already had the Adept III versions of Aegis of Hope and Unwavering Faith I would not use them at all.  I upgraded them because they were shield buffs.   We can give mitigation and avoidance buffs to others but we cant give them to ourselves. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We had a nice shield buff Aegis of Hope and Unyeilding wrath buffed shield factor and shield block or avoidance by a significant amount.   It could be said that before the combat changes our sheild was too strong when using the shield buff, now we have no shield buff at all.    Why was our shield buff removed?   Are we supposed to be exactly like any other plate tank?  If the devs were trying to balance plate tank avoidance and mitigation, they left out Paladins.  Paladins are more dependent on our shield than the other Plate tanks because of our lower avoidance and mitigation.   The way to balance us with the other plate tanks is through our shield, the symbol of our faith.</DIV>

[Rochir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Ah I understand, and agree.  We should all work together, to try to get our role as a caster tank to come to fruition....but my fear with that is if we don't have a clear advantage over other tanks, we are going to get left out still, because most Epics still hit for a ton with Crushing/Slashing/Piercing...<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Good point.   Being a strong tank against caster mobs is good but all of the new raid mobs that I have fought do in fact hit for a ton of Crushing/Slashing/Piercing.    The extra resistances are nice but to survive against the new epics we need some sort of additional defensive buff.    I think our shield is the key.   I dont think a shield buff for Paladins (if done right) would unbalance the fighter subclasses but would put us on a level playing field.   I think we are doing ok vs caster mobs.   The problem we are having is that they still do a lot of melee damage and we are taking too much melee damage.    I have a question about our shield vs casters:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you think we should be able to block certain types of non-physical attacks with our sheild?  Fire, cold etc.   I dont see why not.  Think about it, caster tosses fireball at a paladin carrying a shield.   What is the first thing the Paladin will do?  Try to block the fireball with his shield <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont have a problem with the devs giving some sort of shield buff to all of the plate tanks to be fair.    However, I think Paladins should have the best shield buff as we have the lowest avoidance and mitigation.   I do not think the roleplay aspect of our shield should be overlooked.   The Paladins shield is the symbol of his or her faith.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class=date_text>10-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:52 AM</span>

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> MeridianR wrote:<span>Ah I understand, and agree.  We should all work together, to try to get our role as a caster tank to come to fruition....but my fear with that is if we don't have a clear advantage over other tanks, we are going to get left out still, because most Epics still hit for a ton with Crushing/Slashing/Piercing...</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Good point.   Being a strong tank against caster mobs is good but all of the new raid mobs that I have fought do in fact hit for a ton of Crushing/Slashing/Piercing.    The extra resistances are nice but to survive against the new epics we need some sort of additional defensive buff.    I think our shield is the key.   I dont think a shield buff for Paladins (if done right) would unbalance the fighter subclasses but would put us on a level playing field.   I think we are doing ok vs caster mobs.   The problem we are having is that they still do a lot of melee damage and we are taking too much melee damage.    I have a question about our shield vs casters:</div> <div> </div> <div>Do you think we should be able to block certain types of non-physical attacks with our sheild?  Fire, cold etc.   I dont see why not.  Think about it, caster tosses fireball at a paladin carrying a shield.   What is the first thing the Paladin will do?  Try to block the fireball with his shield <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div> <div> </div> <div>I dont have a problem with the devs giving some sort of shield buff to all of the plate tanks to be fair.    However, I think Paladins should have the best shield buff as we have the lowest avoidance and mitigation.   I do not think the roleplay aspect of our shield should be overlooked.   The Paladins shield is the symbol of his or her faith.</div><p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class="date_text">10-24-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:52 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>the problem with this is you are trying to raise our mit/avoidance to be on par with other tanks ... this would be unfair to other classes, unless they give similar changes to other classes.  and if they do that we are still in the same boat.  i think we need to accept the lower mit ... we SHOULD have lower mit, but then, then the majority of caster mobs damage should not be MELEE. the problem with the design in this area isn't us, it's the mobs ... and, for the record, ... i haven't seen oiuir resists help all that much ... i except for the fact that Smite rarely hits me ... </span><div></div>

[Yrield]

Yeah mobs are part of the problem and part of the solution if caster mobs have to deal damage with auto-attack, the damage should be arcane based. Like a wizard mobs with fire and ice nuke and mental auto-attack. Now find a tank able to beat us on 3 kind of resists...heck can they get 2 resists on the same level than us ? By hunting the wisdom cap, its ±1260 to all resists, almost the same than a T6 def stance adept3 (1624) add the gears and  a resist potion, who tank ? <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <div></div>