Rajinn

[xIC]

<DIV>Rajinn,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I first wanted to thank you for taking an interest in the problems of the paladin community and the other communities that i see you post in. It is nice to know that some of our concerns are being at least seen, if not heard by the dev team.   While it is nice to see you respond to some of our concerns I really think more needs to be done.  What I think would benefit the dev team as well as the community (specifically paladin community) is a two way communication system between you and us.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me expound upon this a bit.  There is a lot of anger and resentment among my fellow paladins right now.  You guys have taken notice of the anger I assume since there are attempts to respond to the positive posts to encourage this kind of posting.  Well the anger did not develope over night.  In fact is started slowly and slowly reached a flash point.  I beleive 90% of the problem does not have to do with the mechanics of the game that made people angry.  The mechanics were a focal point and way for the anger to be directed.  What i beleive has made everyone so upset and what has made everyone so mad is what we have in the past felt like neglect for our class.  Let me explain, many of the major concerns in our class have been brought up a looooong time ago, ie ranged slot stats, and were brought up as an issue.  Well for a long time we posted and posted and posted about this.  We did not receive any kind of word on this till about a couple weeks ago when moorgaurd posted back finally.  All this time of wondering waiting, and more waiting has led us to beleive that our concerns were never being heard.  There was never a 2 way communication between us and you.  Because of this lack of communication our community was allowed to sit and stew till we reached a boiling point.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The hard core reaction you got from the combat changes from the paladin community a i challenge you to think about, really did not come from the changes themselves but what seemed like an entire lack or respect to the players and our issues with the game.  No one here felt like any of our major issues even got addressed.  In fact it took a major movement among several of our dedicated to even get our taunts semi-fixed, which was not done till hte very end of the patch.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now Rajinn, I dont mean to go off on a tangent but the heart and root of the matter is, we have no idea whether you(devs) have taken a hard look at the issues we present on these forums or if they are even seen.  That is why seeing your post and moorgaurds post came to us as a shock and pleasant surprise that finally after all this time our concerns might be getting due attention.  Well a few weeks go by and the new update comes out and once again our class is left in the dark.  Now you will see the anger begin to boil up agian and the countless posts about the same issues over and over again.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically what it comes down to is this,  Is there anyway you can let us know what ideas for the paladin community are actually in the works and being considered and what ideas are not going to go forward and what ideas are set aside for a later date?  The two way communication between you guys and us will deter alot of the anger but maybe save you all some money in hte long run.  I know many paladins have left in the past and the community has largely been impacted by decisions you have and have not made.  Just giving us an idea of what is going on i think will help those in our community stick around.  For example, knowing a major issue is going to be addressed or is being addressed is encouraging for many to stick it out longer to see the class fixed.  Right now we get many who have waited long enough and want out.  Just knowing our concerns have been heard will quell (sp?) many on the forums.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know for myself i got excited to see you and moorgaurds posts and when live update 15 hit, i was let back down thinking here we go again. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Demonslayor</DIV>

[djhbeek]

very nicely written.  i agree completely. <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>hmn..well, I'm getting deployed pretty soon. Hopefully by the time I get back, something will have been done to address some of the paly issues.</P> <P>Im not going to bother to keep my fingers crossed. </P> <P>xICEx and I have our disagreements, but I concur with your post.  Raj, we need more power. We are gimped on stats bad. We are so hybridized (is that a word?) that we need help!</P> <P><EM>We need INT for our nukes. If we sacrifice INT we lose DPS, since we are nuke-based.</EM></P> <P><EM>We need WIS for our resists. If we sacrifice WIS we lose out on resists. We cannot afford this, as we are arcane tanks.</EM></P> <P><EM>We need STRE for our power. Our power is low enough as it is! How can u ask us to sacrifice on this one!</EM></P> <P><EM>We need STA for our hit points. We have the lowest hit points of any tank. We NEED more STA points or buffs!</EM></P> <P>Crusaders are having to juggle between <U>FOUR</U> different stat categories just to maintain our viability. We are gimped right off the bat having to choose one or the other. No other tank is as affected by this as Crusaders.  No other tank has to choose between all these skills. I cannot afford to even pick gear with agility! </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[GidionSWE]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>hmn..well, I'm getting deployed pretty soon. Hopefully by the time I get back, something will have been done to address some of the paly issues.</P> <P>Im not going to bother to keep my fingers crossed. </P> <P>xICEx and I have our disagreements, but I concur with your post.  Raj, we need more power. We are gimped on stats bad. We are so hybridized (is that a word?) that we need help!</P> <P><EM>We need INT for our nukes. If we sacrifice INT we lose DPS, since we are nuke-based.</EM></P> <P><EM>We need WIS for our resists. If we sacrifice WIS we lose out on resists. We cannot afford this, as we are arcane tanks.</EM></P> <P><EM>We need STRE for our power. Our power is low enough as it is! How can u ask us to sacrifice on this one!</EM></P> <P><EM>We need STA for our hit points. We have the lowest hit points of any tank. We NEED more STA points or buffs!</EM></P> <P>Crusaders are having to juggle between <U>FOUR</U> different stat categories just to maintain our viability. We are gimped right off the bat having to choose one or the other. No other tank is as affected by this as Crusaders.  No other tank has to choose between all these skills. I cannot afford to even pick gear with agility! </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dont forget Agility...we need it so we dont get interrupted ALL the freakin time when we try to cast our spells thats sposed to make up for our crappy mit/avoidance and hp

[Kale]

<span><blockquote><hr>xICEx wrote: <div> Is there anyway you can let us know what ideas for the paladin community are actually in the works and being considered and <font color="#ff3366"><i>what ideas are not going to go forward</i></font> and what ideas are set aside for a later date? </div><hr></blockquote> You can't honestly expect them to tell you what they are <i><font color="#ff3333">not</font> </i>doing. Imagine, for a moment, if they granted that wish. They come out and say, "We're looking at providing non-weapon ranged items for Paladins. As to the issues of Power pools, stat reliance, and mitigation/avoidance, we're not going to do anything about those for a while." Now imagine the uproar. I think it's reasonable to ask them what <font color="#ffff66"><i>is </i><font color="#ffffff">on the table for the immediate future. And they have said they are looking at ranged items, but they have specifically stated it is much harder to code than we think. As to the rest of our concerns, they are going to want to do their own analysis and internal testing/discussion before they come to any conclusions about what does or does not need to be worked on. All we can do is voice our concerns, and hope they get addressed. We keep doing it politely, constantly, with as much evidence as we can provide, and hopefully we'll see results. </font></font></span><div></div>

[dKKeN]

Hello Paladins I sent Rajinn a private message, much like the one in topic. This is what he responded. <i>Well technically speaking we can't say what we are working on since that is subject to change. Just put together something like a wish list with what you like and dislike and suggested changes. </i>I think we are doing excactly what they want us to do. Lets hope im right. Smile Dkken 45 Paladin AB <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

thx bro...but you should never post anything a dev or mod PM's you. It discourages them from sending PM's.

[djhbeek]

there's got to be _something_ they can feel confortable telling us ... we have no idea whether we are looking at days, months, or years on these issues, or _even_ if they regard them as issues.  even something as simple "sigil should not cancel amends, if it does, we will fix it" would be helpful. <div></div>

[dKKeN]

<div></div><div></div><hr><i>thx bro...but you should never post anything a dev or mod PM's you. It discourages them from sending PM's.</i><hr>There is nothing wrong with what Rajinn answered. We constantly ask them to speak the truth, and so he does.   <b>Isn't that what you want?</b>I feel you fellow Paladins and I agree in almost every post you have submitted, but you can't complain about everything!Dkken45 PaladinAB<i></i><div></div><p>Message Edited by dKKeN on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:11 PM</span>

[robusticus]

<P>I disagree - this is totally about game mechanics.  Compare Refusal to Ice Comet.  1200 dmg every 60 seconds versus 5000 every 45?  I don't expect to out dps a wizard but I would expect our major offensive weapons to be recastable quicker than theirs.</P> <P>I initally logged into the combat changes with optimism and excitement.  After about 20 deaths, major stress over /respec and 5 platinum for new gear that initial excitement has changed a bit.  I can play again now and it is fun, but there are still problems that won't be solved with new tactics or any adjustment of perception, relearning my toon, etc.  However, I will say that the problems ARE solvable with some tweaking - no major rework needed.  I play for the named kills (epics) and the fabled loots, needless to say, haven't even come close to seeing any of that since LU13.  Its been grinding and more grinding and its getting old.</P> <P> Basically, there are huge holes in the rythm of our fights now where we become fairly defenseless and our dps goes WAY down.  We are all but worthless now on raids.</P> <P>I posted this before, y'all have posted before, but maybe if we keep posting the "wishlist" they will either implement the changes or at least post why they can't do anything.  I'm also curious about what kind of testing they did for this stuff and wether or not a long time pally ever had a chance at it before they released.   A large part of MY anger comes from their change notes saying things like "most combat arts and spell recast timers have been reduced"...(the unsaid line there is EXCEPT THE 2 YOU USE THE MOST WHICH HAD THEIR TIMERS TRIPLED)... I would have much preferred "yah, we're about to nerf you into dust but here's some things that you can do to make it easier...twink your char out to the max and power lvl to 50+"</P> <P>Pre-update paladins really didn't come into their own until lvl 42 or so.  Anger is the proper response to obtaining that and then being told essentially the way you are playing, which was very satisfying, hard-won and successful, was essentially an exploit of the system and we've patched that up for ya.</P> <P>Our Blessed/Devout/Pious Aid line needs to be equivalent to wards in terms of cast time and dmg healed, or Aid needs a lot less of a recast time.  Wards should operate for raid friends.  BOTH spells need to have cast times reduced.  This will boost our desirability in raids quite a bit.  Ironically on the rezbot subject the other day I had a templar say "the non-healers get better rez than us"... can you believe that?</P> <P>I care about ranged slot about as much as I cared about Rescue - made it through the first 50 levels without it so why bother now?  Ironically, that's the only thing they've confirmed they are talking about.</P> <P>A huge justification for our class was, "well, pallies can wear plate armor"... plate armor is no longer as much of an advantage and we didn't get anything to compensate for that.  If we throw out the plate armor there are many classes that would be a better choice.  The avoidance penalty for plate needs to be adjusted or *gasp* done away with completely.</P> <P>I don't want to hear about PVP balance either... how many duels has anybody ever had with someone the same level with all the same tiered gear?  Duels will never be balanced, so there isn't any point in making certain classes suffer for it.</P> <P>Now awaiting the next thread to repost the wishlist on.  </P>

[BlackW]

<P>Some of you may have noticed that I have a split personality depending on what character I am posting as.   My average-equipped human Paladin took it hard on the chin.   Severely nerfed.   Almost unplayable.  On the other hand, my legendary/Adept III equipped, high level armorer Paladin fared quite well.   I am conflicted about the combat changes.    If you look at the plate armor fighters we are fairly well balanced between ourselves.   When you compare the plate armor fighters to brawlers, we are not well balanced at all.</P> <P>I did once represent Paladins in a semi-offical capacity but I found it too constraining.    I felt constrained from expressing my opinions as I needed and wanted to in this forum.   I am loyal to my own Paladin character and to the Paladin community, not to SOE though I do want to see their and my favorite game succeed.   I have not had any official contact with SOE in some time nor do I expect to in the future.   What I state here is my own opinion and is not based on anything I have heard from SOE.   I have not heard anything from them in several months.</P> <P>I think what SOE is doing is taking a wait and see attitude to the combat changes.   I think they ran their parsers, balanced the numbers and when they got rid of enough bugs, the combat changes went live.   I believe that their numbers told them that the fighter subclasses were balanced when the combat changes went live.   I think that SOE is hoping we will get used to it, get over it and move on.   I dont think they want to have to make major revisions in the new combat system and will try to avoid doing so if possible.   There will probably be some adjustments made but not as many as some would like.</P> <P>Almost every subclass thinks that they were nerfed, including brawlers.   Talk to a brawler and they will tell you how weak at tanking their subclass is.   One look at an uber brawlers stats might lead others to label them the uber tanking class in EQ2.   I dont know how much of DoF has been explored.   I dont know if all of the new uber items have been found.    I think there is a lot we dont know.   Maybe SOE expects us to go find out what we need to know to make our characters stronger.   Maybe there are some little-known uber items that few if any have found.   The problem with finding them is this:</P> <P>If we are not strong enough to tank the RAID mobs that the drop the uber items we need, how are we going to get them?   What tactics, stragegy or whatever are needed to kill them?   I have yet to be in a single raid that fought one of the new 55+ raid mobs that was not wiped.   I have been in x2, x3 and x4 raids with my high elf paladin.   Right now, we need fabled tier6 items.   Unfortunately the mobs that drop them are extremely hard to kill.    The best most of us can do right now is pristine handcrafted legendary teir6 gear and adept iii spells and CAs.    Not even that seems to be good enough to do the job.   Advancing our level doesnt seem to help that much either.   Maybe all the subclasses in the raid need to be a certain level to get some sort of synergy going.</P> <P>Honestly, I think we are on our own.   I dont think we are going to get much if any help anytime soon.   All of us plate armor fighters are in the same boat together.   We need to share information with each other so that we can figure out what we need, where we can get it and how we can get it.   For myself, I intend to level my 51 armorer paladin up to 60 armorer so that he can provide my guild with the legendary chain and plate armor they need for tier6.    I dont know what else to do.    I do know that I am tired of going to raids that get wiped.   I hope that Rajinn can and will help us.   Until then, we need to help each other <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[xIC]

<P>i want to personally thank the last 2 posters for using my thread to further there own agendas......... plz if your not going to add to the actaul thread then plz post the same stuff you post everywhere else and is on every thread.   This thread was intended solely to positively reach one of the admins and not to add to the 15 posts about what is wrong with our class.  Im going to ask you guys and those that post afterwards to keep to the topic and not post anymore "this is whats wrong with our class"  posts.  This was nota  post to talk about our class but about communication.</P> <P> </P> <P>Demonslayor</P>

[robusticus]

<P>Yah well if you hadn't started a new touchy feely thread about "communication" than our "wishlist", which is what that dude is asking for, would be more prevalant and we wouldn't feel the need to correct you or repost what we want.</P> <P>You presumed to know what has sparked all the negative feedback and are dead wrong on that.  Most of us couldn't give a rip wether or not we ever heard from moorgard or anybody from SOE if we could still kill epics and get fableds.  I never even knew this board existed until LU13 and thankfully I found it else I would've cancelled my account a long time ago.</P> <P>So don't tell us to stay on topic.  There is only one topic... unnerfing us.</P> <p>Message Edited by robusticus on <span class=date_text>10-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span>

[trout]

<P>At one point a few months back there was talk of possibly having class corospondents.  I saw this work well in SWG and was looking forward to it here but it never materialized. </P> <P>I'd be interested to know if SoE has any intention of implementing them here or not. While in reality it probably did little to further the agenda of the players it did provide an avenue though which we knew our voices were being heard.</P> <P>I would definatley get behind any idea that would allow for more communication between the community and the dev team and communication within the community. My cor in SWG did a great job of compiling and consolidating info as well as leading focused discussion threads.</P> <P>I wish the star rating was still in effect, I would definatlty give this thread/idea the full 5. Thanks :smileyhappy:</P>

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>dKKeN wrote: <div></div>I feel you fellow Paladins and I agree in almost every post you have submitted, but you can't complain about everything! <hr></blockquote> Ooh, a CHALLENGE.

[Goejun]

<P>When I jumped in EQ2 they were so many cool things about this game. I had great fun...And I was conviced that SOE would make this game even greater. After 1 year I can say that the game is just going the other way and with that combat change they just have made us paying beta tester (Gee, u can't even know what real mitigation a player has compared to another, is this a joke ???) and many class broken and incredibly unbalanced. What worse is that even if I wanna stay in this game I'm just depressed to see friends going away (my guild is a cemetary of people who never log back) and it's harder to get group at any level except end-game. I'm also conviced that there is ZERO comunication between us and the dev because they don't have time to hear or read what is everywhere on the pally forum and never fixed (oh maybe we will get a range item soon that will correct 10% of our problems...). </P> <P>How can you believe that they are working seriously when several class say that they have big problems just to play the game and what we get in patches are new backgrounds for some windows and name changes ??????</P>

[Rochir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xICEx wrote:<BR> <P>i want to personally thank the last 2 posters for using my thread to further there own agendas......... plz if your not going to add to the actaul thread then plz post the same stuff you post everywhere else and is on every thread.   This thread was intended solely to positively reach one of the admins and not to add to the 15 posts about what is wrong with our class.  Im going to ask you guys and those that post afterwards to keep to the topic and not post anymore "this is whats wrong with our class"  posts.  This was nota  post to talk about our class but about communication.</P> <P> </P> <P>Demonslayor</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am always happy when anyone takes the time to respond politely and respectfully to one of my threads <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[H3llburn]

We have allready started wish lists, if they feel they are not Friendly enough we could gladly put them in a more Friendly manner. However I think ther are 3 or 4 threads asking for a ranged item, several that ask for res to be fixed, and so on. If they really want us to wrap it up in a different package Im sure we can do that, if we could just see Some action on anything , it would go along way.