The New Role of Paladins... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

BlackW

08-08-2005, 08:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote: Ok from what I am reading, researching etc, it seems Pally's are going to be king in tanking caster epics.....with a Fury and our own buffs we should be able to get over 250 wisdom with no problem. Caster mobs are now difference between there Int, vs our Wisdom. Discussions? Personally if we are given the ability to have much higher Wisdom then Guardians, I am all for actually having a tanking role in raids (and also against certain heroics needed for quests etc). <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good question. I wish I knew. I suppose I could be a pure tank though that does not sound like a lot of fun. I am hoping that the dps nerf will not be as severe as it is on test in the live version of the changes. I am waiting to see how we will balance out vs other fighters in the final version of the changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not so sure that we are going to be king in tanking caster epics. The lvl 42 heroic^^^ caster I took on pwnt me. If I wasnt so worn out from putting together all those numbers on the changes, I would go take a look at a before and after comparison of resists and elemental damage mitigation. If you want to do it yourself, go to EverFrost, find a group of 42 Heroic^^^ with a mage and a fighter in a group of 2. They are probably about equivalent to a single lvl 42 Epic X2 mob. My mitigation to physical damage served me well against the fighter but if I had increased resistance to elemental and magic damage, either it did not work (bugged) or that casters attacks have been boosted because she beat me like a red-headed stepchild. Take a look at the screenshots of my character. You will note that my character has very well balanced resists in the Persona screen. This is something that needs to be looked at though I am too tired to do it now. You might want to start by checking to see if our resists have been buffed in the changes. I will do it when I get a chance. I am not trying to flame or argue with you, I would like to be able to tank casters, I am just not sure that our new abilites are working like they should be.</DIV> Ok here are the before and after Persona screenshots: Persona Before the Changes <A href="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a290/blackweb1/EQ2_000008d.jpg" target=_blank>http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a290/blackweb1/EQ2_000008d.jpg</A> Persona After the Changes <A href="http://photobucket.com/albums/a290/blackweb1/?action=view&current=EQ2_000021.jpg" target=_blank>http://photobucket.com/albums/a290/blackweb1/?action=view&current=EQ2_000021.jpg</A> Mitigation is much higher. Resistances are all higher, about 8% higher. Attack is higher. Mitigation is much higher but avoidance is actually 3% lower. The ring buff in both screenshots is agility. Strength is lower, but wisdom is higher. Stamina, agility and intelligence are unchanged. These characters are identical in every way, the only difference is in the game itself. You may have a point Meridian. If caster mobs are not scaled up, we should be able to tank them better.Message Edited by BlackWeb on 08-08-2005 10:10 AM

Boli32

08-09-2005, 04:10 PM

<div></div><blockquote>Stamina, agility and intelligence are unchanged</blockquote>Actually Stamina has dropped and thus our Hit Points. The Vigor of trust line has changed as not to include STA.As to the new role, if we can pull of enough self heals without interruptions so we can absorb as (comparative) damage as a guardian; we will be the tank of chose for caster mobs. If however interrupts stop us from pull any heals of whatsoever we may be overlooked in such a role as we cannot be called on to reliably absorb as much punishment.It all remains to be seen what changes are in the pipeline for the priests/fighters; I can see still see groups wanting a Paladin in the group even with a MT; after all we can supplement a priest’s healing but (allegedly) dish out more damage than them so in difficult zones we may be chosen over a second healer.<div></div>

BlackW

08-09-2005, 05:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> boli wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>Stamina, agility and intelligence are unchanged </BLOCKQUOTE>Actually Stamina has dropped and thus our Hit Points. The Vigor of trust line has changed as not to include STA. As to the new role, if we can pull of enough self heals without interruptions so we can absorb as (comparative) damage as a guardian; we will be the tank of chose for caster mobs. If however interrupts stop us from pull any heals of whatsoever we may be overlooked in such a role as we cannot be called on to reliably absorb as much punishment. It all remains to be seen what changes are in the pipeline for the priests/fighters; I can see still see groups wanting a Paladin in the group even with a MT; after all we can supplement a priest’s healing but (allegedly) dish out more damage than them so in difficult zones we may be chosen over a second healer. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Most of our buffs have been changed. I used the same buffs before and after as much as I could. Maybe I did not use the right one for boosting hit points. As I said, I could use some help with this. I do believe that Meridian is right, Paladins should be able to tank casters better than other fighters after the current changes, assuming we have adequate dps support. Our dps is so weak that we would have great difficulty killing a strong caster with high hp without lots of dps support.

Kendricke

08-09-2005, 05:23 PM

Hit points were reduced across the board for virtually all classes. Also, if you tried to solo a Heroic Yellow con Epic caster...then yes, you likely were killed very, very quickly. One of the major stated reasons for the revamp is the fact that the con system had become largely irrelevant. I have paladins in my guild who consistently solo Groupx2 Epic targets. It takes them a while, but right now it's completely possible. In short, no one should be soloing Epic content after the revamp. It should be very, very, very difficult for anyone to solo heroic content, which was designed for groups of 3 or more.

BlackW

08-09-2005, 05:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: Hit points were reduced across the board for virtually all classes. Also, if you tried to solo a Heroic Yellow con Epic caster...then yes, you likely were killed very, very quickly. One of the major stated reasons for the revamp is the fact that the con system had become largely irrelevant. I have paladins in my guild who consistently solo Groupx2 Epic targets. It takes them a while, but right now it's completely possible. In short, no one should be soloing Epic content after the revamp. It should be very, very, very difficult for anyone to solo heroic content, which was designed for groups of 3 or more. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> This elitist "heroics are only for groups" concept is becoming tiresome. If it is true that we should never be soloing heroic content of at or below our level then heroic content has no business being in the open zones where most soloers play. It should be placed only in heroic zones for groups. Heroic content should be provided for solo players. Solo/casual players should not be excluded from the most fun, challenging and rewarding (in terms of experience and loot) content in EQ2 because they are not in large guilds, online when it is easy to find a group or just want to play solo. If SOE is determined to exclude soloers from heroic content then they should seriously consider merging some of the low-polulation servers such as mine where it can be very difficult to find a group.

Collaud

08-09-2005, 07:53 PM

I agree with you Blackweb, but the hardcore folks are going to tear you apart for that last post.

blueduckie

08-09-2005, 08:00 PM

It will be determined by the element of the caster. I havnt seen any info yet saying what resist the Paladin stance gets but guardian gets a extra 1200+ heat mit on there defense stance. Monks get mental. Not sure what the others get i would guess Paladins get cold or disease but no telling yet cant find the info here. It will most likely come down to the element of picking who tanks what and who can raises resistances higher.

uzhiel feathered serpe

08-09-2005, 08:10 PM

hmn...i agree somewhat with blackweb on this one...The green, blue, white, orange, red system wasn't the best approach. I agree that people should be able to solo heroics..and those mobs SHOULD drop better lewts. It says heroic, and by god it should be a HEROIC fight. The con system should reflect that. Hell, I would even venture to say that there should be a difference between : Heroic mobs: can be soloable but extremely hard, better xp reward and loot rewards Grp mobs: MUST be done in grps. A hero is someone who can do amazing feats...but notice the word hero is singular. This is just one idea that can be looked at..as I'm sure that there are tons of other ones that are probably better. Its would just be very, very silly to see a full fabled /legendary Paladin being beat up by a green con heroic lizard in FE. Or a really well outfitted lvl 20 paly being beat up by a lvl 15 "heroic" gnoll" Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 08-09-2005 09:11 AM

BlackW

08-09-2005, 08:17 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Collaudus wrote: I agree with you Blackweb, but the hardcore folks are going to tear you apart for that last post. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I have pretty good fire resist on my high elf paladin <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Yrield

08-09-2005, 08:21 PM

BlackW

08-09-2005, 08:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote: hmn...i agree somewhat with blackweb on this one...The green, blue, white, orange, red system wasn't the best approach. I agree that people should be able to solo heroics..and those mobs SHOULD drop better lewts. It says heroic, and by god it should be a HEROIC fight. The con system should reflect that. Hell, I would even venture to say that there should be a difference between : Heroic mobs: can be soloable but extremely hard, better xp reward and loot rewards Grp mobs: MUST be done in grps. A hero is someone who can do amazing feats...but notice the word hero is singular. This is just one idea that can be looked at..as I'm sure that there are tons of other ones that are probably better. Its would just be very, very silly to see a full fabled /legendary Paladin being beat up by a green con heroic lizard in FE. Or a really well outfitted lvl 20 paly being beat up by a lvl 15 "heroic" gnoll" Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 08-09-2005 09:11 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Aye, I harvest a LOT. I often look for challenging mobs to fight solo when out harvesting. It would be a shame if I were unable to test my skills against Heroic mobs as must normal mobs near my level are not much of a challenge and even if they are, they dont give very good exp or loot I think a good baseline for heroics would be. A Heroic^^ mob near your level should be about the same strength as an uber-tweaked character your level. There is a chance of defeating it but not a good and it will be a very tough solo fight.

TheGreatStoney

08-09-2005, 08:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: This elitist "heroics are only for groups" concept is becoming tiresome. If it is true that we should never be soloing heroic content of at or below our level then heroic content has no business being in the open zones where most soloers play. It should be placed only in heroic zones for groups. Heroic content should be provided for solo players. Solo/casual players should not be excluded from the most fun, challenging and rewarding (in terms of experience and loot) content in EQ2 because they are not in large guilds, online when it is easy to find a group or just want to play solo. If SOE is determined to exclude soloers from heroic content then they should seriously consider merging some of the low-polulation servers such as mine where it can be very difficult to find a group. <HR> <DIV>Thats not a very good reason supporting why people should be able to solo heroics. Last time i checked Sony never designated certain zones as "Solo Zones". I have seen Solusek Fist, Vision of Vox, and many other contested raid mobs up in various zones with solo content in it, so does that mean i should be able to solo it? The mobs have been classified as solo, group, and raid mobs for a reason. Group mobs should take 3-6 people to kill. Raid mobs should take two, three, or four groups depending on how it is classfied.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casual Players and Solo Players</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: Solo/casual players should not be excluded from the most fun, challenging and rewarding (in terms of experience and loot) content in EQ2 because they are not in large guilds, online when it is easy to find a group or just want to play solo. <HR> First off your grouping Solo players and casual player into one category. I cant stand it when people classify these as one in the same. They are NOT the same! Solo players are people that solo, casual players are people who play casual (what a definition lol). Casual players are not excluded from the most fun, challenging and rewarding content in EQ2. All they have to do is find a group or raid and go out have fun. Anyone can attempt any content they want, no one is stopping them. Pickup raids and guild alliances are on many servers, and they can successfully kill raid mobs. Many alliances on my server already have prismatics. Solo players on the other hand, arent going to have a chance at this. Why? Because they limit themselves to soloing, which is only a small part of the game. If they grouped up once in awhile they would have a chance at taking on group and raid mobs. If you only solo, you are only excluding yourself from the rest of the fun, challenging and rewarding content in EQ2. Loot EVERYONE has access to all the loot. Its just the way they obtain it that differs. Raiders obtain fabled loot by killing raid mobs. Groups obtain fabled loot by killing group mobs. Soloers obtain fabled loot by killing solo mobs. Everyone can obtain fabled loot by buying them off other people! Although the chance at getting fabled loot differs depending upon what you are fighting, everyone has a shot at getting some. ****This is my opinions, this is not officially what Sony has defined as EQ2**** </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

TheGreatStoney

08-09-2005, 08:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: Aye, I harvest a LOT. I often look for challenging mobs to fight solo when out harvesting. It would be a shame if I were unable to test my skills against Heroic mobs as must normal mobs near my level are not much of a challenge and even if they are, they dont give very good exp or loot I think a good baseline for heroics would be. A Heroic^^ mob near your level should be about the same strength as an uber-tweaked character your level. There is a chance of defeating it but not a good and it will be a very tough solo fight. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Under the current combat system, i'll agree that solo mobs are rather easy to kill, and i often look for group mobs if i want a challenge. But when the new combat system comes out, im sure yellow+ solo mobs will give you a good run for your money.

Ebeta

08-09-2005, 10:30 PM

<DIV>Just picture the arena champ as they typical Yellow con solo mob after revamp. :smileysurprised:</DIV>

Kendricke

08-10-2005, 06:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: This elitist "heroics are only for groups" concept is becoming tiresome. If it is true that we should never be soloing heroic content of at or below our level then heroic content has no business being in the open zones where most soloers play. It should be placed only in heroic zones for groups. Heroic content should be provided for solo players. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Whether this concept is "tiresome" or not is irrelevant. Whether or not you personally like me is irrelevant. Whether or not you think I have a right to post here is irrelevant. Whether or not you feel your opinion on the matter counts more is irrelevant. What is relevant is that this is an intended part of the Combat Revamp. This was stated clearly by Gallenite at the Community Summit that Heroic content was never designed for solo access, and that all content was going to be more difficult across the board after the revamp (Session 2 - Raid Discussion...just checked my notes. When it was asked if content would be made more challenging by Ixnay). Even if you never heard that, one only has to read the consider description to see that this content was clearly designed for groups of 4 or more. Screenshots can be provided if needed. Even if that were not enough to convince you, the developers themselves have been restating the same: <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> "Heroic encounters should require the cooperation of multiple players. Groups and raid forces taking on powerful targets should find an increased level of challenge." -<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=61042&query.id=0#M61042" target=_blank>Moorgard July 29, 2005</A> "Will you be able to solo heroic encounters at your level? Almost certainly not." - <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=62258&query.id=0#M62258" target=_blank>Moorgard, August 5, 2005</A></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fellgaze

08-10-2005, 07:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: Hit points were reduced across the board for virtually all classes. Also, if you tried to solo a Heroic Yellow con Epic caster...then yes, you likely were killed very, very quickly. One of the major stated reasons for the revamp is the fact that the con system had become largely irrelevant. I have paladins in my guild who consistently solo Groupx2 Epic targets. It takes them a while, but right now it's completely possible. In short, no one should be soloing Epic content after the revamp. It should be very, very, very difficult for anyone to solo heroic content, which was designed for groups of 3 or more. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> This elitist "heroics are only for groups" concept is becoming tiresome. Talk to the developers then...it was their idea. If it is true that we should never be soloing heroic content of at or below our level then heroic content has no business being in the open zones where most soloers play. Then the Specters shouldn't have been in Desert of Ro, nor the Sand Giants for that matter. Hill Giants shouldn't have been in Rathe where people hunted easier lizardmen. Or in West Commons, for that matter. It should be placed only in heroic zones for groups. So you're suggesting that they designate entire zones as "group zone" and "solo zone" now? That's the least logical of the many illogical things you've written here. Heroic content should be provided for solo players. I think I'm going to make this Moorgard quote my new sig; "...It holds true on the playground, during times of war, and in MMOGs: Anytime one person can point to someone else and see them as different than they are, conflict will result. The way to address this problem is not to try to eliminate differences, but to celebrate them. Solo/casual players should not be excluded from the most fun, challenging and rewarding (in terms of experience and loot) content in EQ2 because they are not in large guilds, online when it is easy to find a group or just want to play solo. Another Moorgard quote; "...The reality is that almost all the decisions we make in terms of gameplay come about because the designers think it would make an entertaining game. Folks like Bill Trost happen to believe that getting together with a group of friends and going on heroic adventures is fun, so that's the kind of game we're making. There really isn't anything more sinister behind our decision to make a group-oriented game than that Now he did not say "group-exclusive", he said "group oriented". That inidicates quite clearly that though soloers (ists?) would be catered to, there would, at some point, be a demarcation line; a point where SOME parts of the game would pretty clearly state "Sorry, group-only for THIS part". And Heroic mobs fall under that category. Why does a Heroic mob's description always state something like "You'd better get some help to take this one on"??? The fact that YOU don't agree with this doesn't change the developer's original intent one iota. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Message Edited by Fellgaze on 08-09-2005 11:39 PM

BlackW

08-10-2005, 07:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: This elitist "heroics are only for groups" concept is becoming tiresome. If it is true that we should never be soloing heroic content of at or below our level then heroic content has no business being in the open zones where most soloers play. It should be placed only in heroic zones for groups. Heroic content should be provided for solo players. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Whether this concept is "tiresome" or not is irrelevant. Whether or not you personally like me is irrelevant. Whether or not you think I have a right to post here is irrelevant. Whether or not you feel your opinion on the matter counts more is irrelevant. What is relevant is that this is an intended part of the Combat Revamp. This was stated clearly by Gallenite at the Community Summit that Heroic content was never designed for solo access, and that all content was going to be more difficult across the board after the revamp (Session 2 - Raid Discussion...just checked my notes. When it was asked if content would be made more challenging by Ixnay). Even if you never heard that, one only has to read the consider description to see that this content was clearly designed for groups of 4 or more. Screenshots can be provided if needed. Even if that were not enough to convince you, the developers themselves have been restating the same: <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> "Heroic encounters should require the cooperation of multiple players. Groups and raid forces taking on powerful targets should find an increased level of challenge." -<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=61042&query.id=0#M61042" target=_blank>Moorgard July 29, 2005</A> "Will you be able to solo heroic encounters at your level? Almost certainly not." - <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=62258&query.id=0#M62258" target=_blank>Moorgard, August 5, 2005</A></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> As I said, you are an unabashed apologist for SOE. Clearly you have greater concerned for SOEs point of view than for the average EQ2 player, in particular solo players. We are SOEs customers. We would not be posting in this board if we did not all have subscriptions. SOE should listen to us, their customers. We want solo heroic content. Our agenda should matter as much or more than the EQ2 Team's agenda as we pay their salaries. If as you say, SOE is determined to force us to group together all of the time while playing EQ2, they need to seriously consider some server mergers. There are several servers, including my own where the population is insufficient to support group heroic content. Message Edited by BlackWeb on 08-09-2005 09:03 PM

Kendricke

08-10-2005, 09:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>As I said, you are an unabashed apologist for SOE. </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> For someone who continually argues against personal attacks, you sure are quick to use such a tactic. Whether I am a "fanboi", "apologist", or "cynic" is 100% irrelevant to what I say. I could be the most bigoted, racist, hateful, spiteful, hurtful, mean-spirited, son of a horse to walk the face of the Earth and it doesn't change the fact that when I say "2+2=4" it's just as true as if you said it. Even if you don't think this is a personal attack, please explain to me the relevance of it to your arguments? Speaking from a standpoint of logic or reason, it's not germaine. It's an ad hominem abusive - an attack on an individual, rather than upon the arguments raised by the individual. The fact is that you're asking for "solo heroic" content...which is an oxymoron. When the game was released there was "solo" and "group" content. Heroic is simply the new tag for "group", brought about by the changes early this year regarding the "con" system changes. By definition, "heroic" content in Everquest 2 is designed for a group of 3-6. It's right there in the consider message. It always has been. This isn't new. Basically what you're asking for is "solo group" content. The problem isn't in the system. In my opinion, this is a problem of perception. You want to gain group benefits and rewards without the hassles and obligations of forming a group. There's plenty of solo content already - almost too much (a problem of perception noted at the Summit). However, the main issues noted here by you aren't issues with mechanics, but with player perception. Honestly, I believe that SOE could "fix" the issue by simply renaming several solo encounters with the Heroic tag without any actual changes to the encounter itself. Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet that the placebo effect would kick in, and most of the "data driven" Paladins I see complaining in this forum wouldn't even likely notice the difference.

Kendricke

08-10-2005, 10:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>If as you say, SOE is determined to force us to group together all of the time while playing EQ2, they need to seriously consider some server mergers. There are several servers, including my own where the population is insufficient to support group heroic content. </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I felt this deserved its own response: For someone who frequently boasts of leading one of the largest guilds on Lucan d'Lere, itself one of the most populated servers...I find that statement to be a bit hard to believe, personally. Are you really trying to say that within your anecdotal experience, you have issues finding a group on Lucan d'Lere? ...in the Order of Marr - a guild of some 210 listed members? If this is in fact your experience which you are attempting to share here, I should say that my own experiences differ wildly on Guk, a server which is FAR less populated than your own. Our guild, with not even half your members puts together groups nightly. My members routinely find groups to join in the wastelands of Lavastorm or Everfrost. The friends and guilds we are in contact with on Guk, Permafrost, Antonia Bayle, Nektulos, and Unrest all report similar situations - with groups not terribly hard to form. However, since you feel that the population on Lucan is insufficient, perhaps you could share how many players are actually on your server...and how many you feel would be sufficient for a healthy server population? That would better help persons such as myself to understand what it is you mean by your currently unsupported assertion.

MeridianR

08-10-2005, 03:47 PM

<blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> BlackWeb wrote: <div></div> <blockquote>As I said, you are an unabashed apologist for SOE. </blockquote> <hr> </blockquote> For someone who continually argues against personal attacks, you sure are quick to use such a tactic. Whether I am a "fanboi", "apologist", or "cynic" is 100% irrelevant to what I say. I could be the most bigoted, racist, hateful, spiteful, hurtful, mean-spirited, son of a horse to walk the face of the Earth and it doesn't change the fact that when I say "2+2=4" it's just as true as if you said it. Even if you don't think this is a personal attack, please explain to me the relevance of it to your arguments? Speaking from a standpoint of logic or reason, it's not germaine. It's an ad hominem abusive - an attack on an individual, rather than upon the arguments raised by the individual. The fact is that you're asking for "solo heroic" content...which is an oxymoron. When the game was released there was "solo" and "group" content. Heroic is simply the new tag for "group", brought about by the changes early this year regarding the "con" system changes. By definition, "heroic" content in Everquest 2 is designed for a group of 3-6. It's right there in the consider message. It always has been. This isn't new. Basically what you're asking for is "solo group" content. The problem isn't in the system. In my opinion, this is a problem of perception. You want to gain group benefits and rewards without the hassles and obligations of forming a group. There's plenty of solo content already - almost too much (a problem of perception noted at the Summit). However, the main issues noted here by you aren't issues with mechanics, but with player perception. Honestly, I believe that SOE could "fix" the issue by simply renaming several solo encounters with the Heroic tag without any actual changes to the encounter itself. Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet that the placebo effect would kick in, and most of the "data driven" Paladins I see complaining in this forum wouldn't even likely notice the difference. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I couldn't have said it any better myself. Very good post.<div></div>

Rhyll Moonwarder

08-10-2005, 04:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: Hit points were reduced across the board for virtually all classes. Also, if you tried to solo a Heroic Yellow con Epic caster...then yes, you likely were killed very, very quickly. One of the major stated reasons for the revamp is the fact that the con system had become largely irrelevant. I have paladins in my guild who consistently solo Groupx2 Epic targets. It takes them a while, but right now it's completely possible. In short, no one should be soloing Epic content after the revamp. It should be very, very, very difficult for anyone to solo heroic content, which was designed for groups of 3 or more. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> This elitist "heroics are only for groups" concept is becoming tiresome. If it is true that we should never be soloing heroic content of at or below our level then heroic content has no business being in the open zones where most soloers play. It should be placed only in heroic zones for groups. Heroic content should be provided for solo players. Solo/casual players should not be excluded from the most fun, challenging and rewarding (in terms of experience and loot) content in EQ2 because they are not in large guilds, online when it is easy to find a group or just want to play solo. If SOE is determined to exclude soloers from heroic content then they should seriously consider merging some of the low-polulation servers such as mine where it can be very difficult to find a group. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Heroic content for groups, I agree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is the hard part. I'm trying to get more involved in writs. I'm a 45th level Pally and I have the "Squishiness" writ" . I have to eliminate some bighorn sheep (forgot the names) in Everfrost. There are too many "aggro" types of wandering heroics plus single player aggro in that area, with few safe places to pull to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Under the current combat formula, if I get a heroic add, while soloing, then I'd say my chances are pretty slim to live and the combat must be abandoned. If I have a warden and illusionist with me, and there is a heroic add, we can win, but it's really close .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With this new combat revamp, that zone will be impossible unless we are a group of 5 or 6. If the heroics are for groups and are in the static zones, then they should not be considered "adds" or "aggro" unless you are in a larger group. If we are 2 or 3 people trying to do writs while waiting for others friends and guildies to join us on, then that area is useless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either elimate the adds or aggro heroics in while locked in combat, or decrease the population of wandering heroics a bit in that area.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's just frustrating as it is. Maybe 1 or 2 wandering heroics would be ample to add the sense of danger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many other zones will they have to tweak or tone down to make enjoyable and not frustrating for groups of 2-3 people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When the combat revamp is completed, I don't think their work in adjustments will be done. The amount and type of content should be adjusted as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Fellgaze

08-10-2005, 05:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>As I said, you are an unabashed apologist for SOE. </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> For someone who continually argues against personal attacks, you sure are quick to use such a tactic. Whether I am a "fanboi", "apologist", or "cynic" is 100% irrelevant to what I say. I could be the most bigoted, racist, hateful, spiteful, hurtful, mean-spirited, son of a horse to walk the face of the Earth and it doesn't change the fact that when I say "2+2=4" it's just as true as if you said it. Even if you don't think this is a personal attack, please explain to me the relevance of it to your arguments? Speaking from a standpoint of logic or reason, it's not germaine. It's an ad hominem abusive - an attack on an individual, rather than upon the arguments raised by the individual. The fact is that you're asking for "solo heroic" content...which is an oxymoron. When the game was released there was "solo" and "group" content. Heroic is simply the new tag for "group", brought about by the changes early this year regarding the "con" system changes. By definition, "heroic" content in Everquest 2 is designed for a group of 3-6. It's right there in the consider message. It always has been. This isn't new. Basically what you're asking for is "solo group" content. The problem isn't in the system. In my opinion, this is a problem of perception. You want to gain group benefits and rewards without the hassles and obligations of forming a group. There's plenty of solo content already - almost too much (a problem of perception noted at the Summit). However, the main issues noted here by you aren't issues with mechanics, but with player perception. Honestly, I believe that SOE could "fix" the issue by simply renaming several solo encounters with the Heroic tag without any actual changes to the encounter itself. Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet that the placebo effect would kick in, and most of the "data driven" Paladins I see complaining in this forum wouldn't even likely notice the difference. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I couldn't have said it any better myself. Very good post. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Kendricke is the more level-headed, restrained (but still sufficiently biting) poster I aspire to be someday. He makes the same points but without losing his cool over how idiotic some of the people he responds to are. Ooops...there I go again. :smileyhappy:

BlackW

08-10-2005, 06:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>As I said, you are an unabashed apologist for SOE. </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> For someone who continually argues against personal attacks, you sure are quick to use such a tactic. Whether I am a "fanboi", "apologist", or "cynic" is 100% irrelevant to what I say. I could be the most bigoted, racist, hateful, spiteful, hurtful, mean-spirited, son of a horse to walk the face of the Earth and it doesn't change the fact that when I say "2+2=4" it's just as true as if you said it. Even if you don't think this is a personal attack, please explain to me the relevance of it to your arguments? Speaking from a standpoint of logic or reason, it's not germaine. It's an ad hominem abusive - an attack on an individual, rather than upon the arguments raised by the individual. The fact is that you're asking for "solo heroic" content...which is an oxymoron. When the game was released there was "solo" and "group" content. Heroic is simply the new tag for "group", brought about by the changes early this year regarding the "con" system changes. By definition, "heroic" content in Everquest 2 is designed for a group of 3-6. It's right there in the consider message. It always has been. This isn't new. Basically what you're asking for is "solo group" content. The problem isn't in the system. In my opinion, this is a problem of perception. You want to gain group benefits and rewards without the hassles and obligations of forming a group. There's plenty of solo content already - almost too much (a problem of perception noted at the Summit). However, the main issues noted here by you aren't issues with mechanics, but with player perception. Honestly, I believe that SOE could "fix" the issue by simply renaming several solo encounters with the Heroic tag without any actual changes to the encounter itself. Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet that the placebo effect would kick in, and most of the "data driven" Paladins I see complaining in this forum wouldn't even likely notice the difference. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> You are clearly well-informed on many EQ2 issues, intelligent and well-spoken. I did not think you would mind being called an "ubabashed apologist for SOE". You constantly quote SOE developers and repeat their point of view, You are obviously pro-SOE. Do you have your own opinions, separate from theirs. Do you agree with them on everything? I did not call you any names, I personally dislike the term "fanboi" as I consider it to be derogatory and disrespectful. I have not seen you show the least bit of concern for the average, solo or casual EQ2 player. You seem concerned only with large groups and RAIDs, hence the term elitist. I would agree, Paladins will see less effect from the changes in large, uber-equipped groups and RAIDs. You do not seem to understand that EQ2 is not set in stone, not even as far as SOE developers are concerned. EQ2 is a changing, growing universe. The EQ2 Team can and should re-evaluate their basic vision and philosophy for EQ2 periodically. For the first 6 months, an MMORPG is the developers game. After a year or so, and a subscriber base is formed, it becomes the developer and the subscribers game. Any MMORPG game developer with any sense should listen to their subscribers if they want to keep them and I believe SOE does. If there is a major problem with a game from the point of view of the subscribers of that game, the game developer would be wise to listen to them or risk losing many of them. <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote: The problem isn't in the system. In my opinion, this is a problem of perception. You want to gain group benefits and rewards without the hassles and obligations of forming a group. There's plenty of solo content already - almost too much (a problem of perception noted at the Summit). However, the main issues noted here by you aren't issues with mechanics, but with player perception. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Ah no, that is not what we want. We want to have FUN! It's a game, remember? The current version of the combat changes on the test server is no fun for paladins playing solo. I have tried the existing solo content. Most of it frankly s-u-x. I have stopped looking for it. The lone exception is Splitpaw. When it comes to perception, the perception of subscribers matters more than the perception of the developers.

Pathin Merrithay

08-10-2005, 07:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote: Ah no, that is not what we want. We want to have FUN! It's a game, remember? The current version of the combat changes on the test server is no fun for paladins playing solo. I have tried the existing solo content. Most of it frankly s-u-x. I have stopped looking for it. The lone exception is Splitpaw. When it comes to perception, the perception of subscribers matters more than the perception of the developers. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>But see, this is the point we keep coming back to Blackweb. The point you refuse to see, the point that many of us are trying to make so we can discuss these changes in a logical manner... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fun for you means you want -everything-. You want to be able to solo group content that's not supposed to be soloable. You want DPS, despite the fact Paladins are a class are being built as essentially, the second (and depending on the mob, the -best-) tanking class in game. You want your heals to remain the ame, despite heals across the board are being readjusted down to account for increased mitigation and the new effect wards have. At this point, it really is like talking to a blank wall; I think a huge aspect of this may also be that you likely haven't experienced much raid content either, so aspects of our class are still going to escape you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>'Slower != s u x' as you put it. Heaven forfend it takes a bit longer to kills mobs. The paladin class is approximately 17th on a list of 24 classes as far as potential damage output, and this is how it's supposed to be. If this were any other forum as well, I'd say you'd ave been flamed into oblivion by now too. Go to the zerker, or the scout class forums and see how far your issues with having a class that can tank extremely well, can heal, ward, group buff, etc etc, but had a major DPS nerf gets you. I'm sure they'd love to hear about how you think you should have somewhat comparable DPS.</DIV>

Mytilma

08-10-2005, 07:30 PM

<blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div> hmn...i agree somewhat with blackweb on this one...The green, blue, white, orange, red system wasn't the best approach. I agree that people should be able to solo heroics..and those mobs SHOULD drop better lewts. It says heroic, and by god it should be a HEROIC fight. The con system should reflect that. Hell, I would even venture to say that there should be a difference between : Heroic mobs: can be soloable but extremely hard, better xp reward and loot rewards Grp mobs: MUST be done in grps. A hero is someone who can do amazing feats...but notice the word hero is singular. This is just one idea that can be looked at..as I'm sure that there are tons of other ones that are probably better. Its would just be very, very silly to see a full fabled /legendary Paladin being beat up by a green con heroic lizard in FE. Or a really well outfitted lvl 20 paly being beat up by a lvl 15 "heroic" gnoll" Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 08-09-2005 09:11 AM<hr></blockquote>Sums up my opinion nicely. I think a system like the following would work well: a) Single-down, Double-down mobs: No challenge, if even-con, good only in huge groups or as minions of other mobs (pretty much as it is now). Should not be mobs encountered single. Whether they're soloable or not should depend on the group boss. b) No arrow mobs: Normal solo content. Even con mobs should be doable in a short fight (about a minute) by all classes. c) Single-up mobs: Heroic solo content, if found as single mobs. More HPs, some (moderate) special attacks. Even cons should be doable solo, but with a much greater risk than normal solo content and in a much bigger time (say, 5-10 min). Reward (loot) should be comparable to group mobs, i.e. better than normal solo content, but not as frequent as group mob drops, because the soloer gets all. Experience gain should compensate for the invested time and risk. d) Double-up mobs: Group mobs. Not soloable, not even when they're green, by neither class. Not rootable, not kiteable. Green double-ups should be doable by small groups (2-3), blue and above only by larger groups (4-6). e) Triple-up mobs: Raid mobs, designed for more than one group. Even-con group x2 mobs could be doable by a single full group (6) in a truly epic and long fight with a big risk of failing, similar to the proposed heroic solo content fought by a soloer. Group x3 or higher mobs should not be doable by a single group, not even if it's green. I hope the revamp of the game content, coming along with the combat revamp, will bring something similar. Even as soloer I should have a chance to get the nice stuff (as in "solo heroic"), but I should have to work darn hard to get it. <div></div>