Priestgauridan(Paladin) Recalassification

[BlackW]

<DIV>This may sound like a joke thread and I wish it were not.   I have come up with a way that SOE can keep some of us disgruntled Priestgaurdian(Paladins) after the combat changes, allow us to choose to become Templars or Gaurdians after the combat changes rather than a nerfed Priestgaurdian(Paladin).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I could choose to turn my character into something useful, most likely a Templar, I might continue to play EQ2.   The current iteration of the combat changes have caused me to lose interest in playing my Priestgaurdian(Paladin).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Please remember that according to Morgaurd, the changes for fighters are not finished.   The changes currently up on test could change.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>08-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:20 AM</span>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>BlackWeb wrote:<div>This may sound like a joke thread and I wish it were not.   I have come up with a way that SOE can keep some of us disgruntled Priestgaurdian(Paladins) after the combat changes, allow us to choose to become Templars or Gaurdians after the combat changes rather than a nerfed Priestgaurdian(Paladin).</div> <div> </div> <div>If I could choose to turn my character into something useful, most likely a Templar, I might continue to play EQ2.   The current iteration of the combat changes have caused me to lose interest in playing my Priestgaurdian(Paladin).</div><hr></blockquote>Well since I always envisioned a Paladin as a fighter who could heal it seems to me there is nothing to be complaining about. We already knew we were overpowered, unless you disagree that being able to solo yellow heroics is overpowered. We are becoming holy warriors, which is a cross between priest and guardian in this game, so it looks like the changes are pretty much correct. We take the role of tank with healing capacity and are the specialist in mitigating heat, divine and one physical damage type, from what I have read so far it seems our new abilities will nicely suit our tanking role.</span><div></div>

[Wurm]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lisasdarren wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR> <DIV>This may sound like a joke thread and I wish it were not.   I have come up with a way that SOE can keep some of us disgruntled Priestgaurdian(Paladins) after the combat changes, allow us to choose to become Templars or Gaurdians after the combat changes rather than a nerfed Priestgaurdian(Paladin).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I could choose to turn my character into something useful, most likely a Templar, I might continue to play EQ2.   The current iteration of the combat changes have caused me to lose interest in playing my Priestgaurdian(Paladin).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well since I always envisioned a Paladin as a fighter who could heal it seems to me there is nothing to be complaining about. We already knew we were overpowered, unless you disagree that being able to solo yellow heroics is overpowered. We are becoming holy warriors, which is a cross between priest and guardian in this game, so it looks like the changes are pretty much correct.<BR><BR>We take the role of tank with healing capacity and are the specialist in mitigating heat, divine and one physical damage type, from what I have read so far it seems our new abilities will nicely suit our tanking role.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Solo yellow heroics? Where and with what equipment? I consider myself lucky to solo a heroic blue with normal player made armor and a few fabled weapons and a Heroic white is run or die. If your soloing yellow heroic I want in on the action.<BR>

[Alarion1]

you know, you could actually *wait* until the fighter/crusader/paladin changes are near completion before freaking out. It is known they are not near done with us yet. <div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lisasdarren wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR> <DIV>This may sound like a joke thread and I wish it were not.   I have come up with a way that SOE can keep some of us disgruntled Priestgaurdian(Paladins) after the combat changes, allow us to choose to become Templars or Gaurdians after the combat changes rather than a nerfed Priestgaurdian(Paladin).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I could choose to turn my character into something useful, most likely a Templar, I might continue to play EQ2.   The current iteration of the combat changes have caused me to lose interest in playing my Priestgaurdian(Paladin).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well since I always envisioned a Paladin as a fighter who could heal it seems to me there is nothing to be complaining about. We already knew we were overpowered, unless you disagree that being able to solo yellow heroics is overpowered. We are becoming holy warriors, which is a cross between priest and guardian in this game, so it looks like the changes are pretty much correct.<BR><BR>We take the role of tank with healing capacity and are the specialist in mitigating heat, divine and one physical damage type, from what I have read so far it seems our new abilities will nicely suit our tanking role.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If we were still fighters, I would agree with you.   The character I played today on test is no longer a fighter.   He can no longer fight.    All he can do is tank, do some weak heals and melee.   Our offensive spells and combat arts have been rendered combat-ineffective to the point where we are no longer fighters.   If Templars could equip a kite shield and there melee damage got a minor boost, they would be able to out-dps and out heal the Paladin on the test server. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest problem for Paladins will be leveling up.   It will be so boring and time consuming after the combat changes that few will ever make it to lvl 50 Paladin and why would they when they can be a Berzerker, Gaurdian or Monk?   Over time you will see fewer and fewer Paladins in EQ2 until they become rarer than a named spawn in Cazic Thule.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know what class is the big winner in all of this?   The Shadowknight.   If I were choosing a hybrid class, the Shadowknight would be it.</DIV>

[Arathan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lisasdarren wrote:<SPAN><BR><BR>We take the role of tank with healing capacity and are the specialist in mitigating heat, divine and one physical damage type, from what I have read so far it seems our new abilities will nicely suit our tanking role.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I gotta be honest that sounds really boring. "Become a Paladin! You too can be the heat mitigation specialist!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm kidding...but not much. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems like its going to take us forever to kill anything now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom Line:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>More quests, more tactical fighting, more strategy, killing things = fun</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Forced grouping, slowing down the game, fighting on auto-attack = not fun </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's funny because the devs really seemed to be making a lot of positive changes recently as far as speeding up the game, getting rid of forced meaningless timesinks but this seems to be a big step backward. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[yzyh]

<DIV>My real friend that got me come back to EQ2 after that I quited E1 for WoW just quited EQ2 for WoW 2 weeks ago lol. He were [Removed for Content] off bcuz his monk were going to be nerfed in the DPS. Yeah I know they will be able to tank betther but he did made him bcuz of its current DPS ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Myself I quited my paladin a few weeks ago bcuz I know the nerf on our already weak DPS (in the 20's and 30's our dps is already pretty low) were going to make us like templar with weak heals but a bit  betther fighting abilityes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So hearing this my other Real friend lvl 41 templar quited for WoW and my brother templar quitted EQ2 for some real life things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ATM I am playing Never Winter Night and GuildWar.  [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] SoE made to the Everquets Series.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I Played EQ1 for over 3 years but I got borred of EQ2 after about 2 mont.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IMO their is nothing wrong with paladin eeing powerfull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dam paladin are supose to be Lord with Divine Power. So they must be powerfull. Its like seeing a Necromancer with wak Power. oups I just defined EQ2 Necromancer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats a sad thing to say but Everuqest series is now BAD.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I am oing back to the woman I cought out in the bar tonight cya everyone. I am back to playing Neverwinter night my paladin is funier there lol.</DIV>

[K'aldar]

<span><blockquote><hr>BlackWeb wrote: <blockquote> <hr> lisasdarren wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> BlackWeb wrote: <div>This may sound like a joke thread and I wish it were not.   I have come up with a way that SOE can keep some of us disgruntled Priestgaurdian(Paladins) after the combat changes, allow us to choose to become Templars or Gaurdians after the combat changes rather than a nerfed Priestgaurdian(Paladin).</div> <div> </div> <div>If I could choose to turn my character into something useful, most likely a Templar, I might continue to play EQ2.   The current iteration of the combat changes have caused me to lose interest in playing my Priestgaurdian(Paladin).</div> <hr> </blockquote>Well since I always envisioned a Paladin as a fighter who could heal it seems to me there is nothing to be complaining about. We already knew we were overpowered, unless you disagree that being able to solo yellow heroics is overpowered. We are becoming holy warriors, which is a cross between priest and guardian in this game, so it looks like the changes are pretty much correct.We take the role of tank with healing capacity and are the specialist in mitigating heat, divine and one physical damage type, from what I have read so far it seems our new abilities will nicely suit our tanking role.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>If we were still fighters, I would agree with you.   <b>The character I played today on test is no longer a fighter</b>.   He can no longer fight.   <u> All he can do is tank</u>, do some weak heals and melee.   <b>Our offensive spells and combat arts have been rendered combat-ineffective to the point where we are no longer fighters</b>.   If Templars could equip a kite shield and there melee damage got a minor boost, they would be able to out-dps and out heal the Paladin on the test server. <div> </div> <div>The biggest problem for Paladins will be leveling up.   It will be so boring and time consuming after the combat changes that few will ever make it to lvl 50 Paladin and why would they when they can be a Berzerker, Gaurdian or Monk?   Over time you will see fewer and fewer Paladins in EQ2 until they become rarer than a named spawn in Cazic Thule.</div> <div> </div> <div>You know what class is the big winner in all of this?   The Shadowknight.   If I were choosing a hybrid class, the Shadowknight would be it.</div><hr></blockquote>actually when you bought your copy of everquest 2 they made it quite clear that in the eq2 universe, fighter means tank. you want offensive skills be a mage or scout type. i dont' log on my paladin to solo, i play him when i want to lead a group to victory in perma or the like, taking massive amounts of damage like only us tanks can. when i want to solo i log my conj or my dirge.</span><div></div>

[Khurghan]

Actually these changes sound good news for paladins. I (like many others) rolled a pally to be a 'holy' tank not to solo, not to do dps but to be a tank. Other members can do the dps and the healing (my healing is simply there to enhance my own tanking and for that oh **** moment when the **** **** ***). If I had wanted to be a light-tank/dps I would have rolled a swashie. <div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Khurghan wrote:<BR>Actually these changes sound good news for paladins. I (like many others) rolled a pally to be a 'holy' tank not to solo, not to do dps but to be a tank. Other members can do the dps and the healing (my healing is simply there to enhance my own tanking and for that oh **** moment when the **** **** ***).<BR><BR>If I had wanted to be a light-tank/dps I would have rolled a swashie.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>A Paladin is not a Paladin without holy magic.   We have no holy magic in this patch.   The reactive attacks on my armor do double the damage or more of my offensive spells and arts.   The effect of Oath Strike, Refusal of Grace, Shatter Will etc.  is only barely noticable and those are the Adept III versions.   The damage of the starter versions will be much lower.   By the time the resistances of heroic and epic mobs are factored in, the damage done by our offensive spells and arts in tier5 will be close to zero. </P> <P>IMHO, in this patch our offensive spells and combat arts are not worth the power cost, not even the adept iii versions.   I think it is better to just melee, self-ward and self-heal.   That is how templars fight solo except that templars have more effective offensive attacks and a much more effective nukes.   Templars out-dps paladins in this patch.   That means we are no longer fighters but weak priests-tanks.</P>

[Khurghan]

Give me holy tanking magic any day, as for holy dps magic? I rolled a paladin to be a tank not a plate wearing scout. <div></div>

[Yrield]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>BlackWeb wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Khurghan wrote:Actually these changes sound good news for paladins. I (like many others) rolled a pally to be a 'holy' tank not to solo, not to do dps but to be a tank. Other members can do the dps and the healing (my healing is simply there to enhance my own tanking and for that oh **** moment when the **** **** ***).If I had wanted to be a light-tank/dps I would have rolled a swashie. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>A Paladin is not a Paladin without holy magic.   We have no holy magic in this patch.   The reactive attacks on my armor do double the damage or more of my offensive spells and arts.   The effect of Oath Strike, Refusal of Grace, Shatter Will etc.  is only barely noticable and those are the Adept III versions.   The damage of the starter versions will be much lower.   By the time the resistances of heroic and epic mobs are factored in, the damage done by our offensive spells and arts in tier5 will be close to zero. </p> <p>IMHO, in this patch our offensive spells and combat arts are not worth the power cost, not even the adept iii versions.   I think it is better to just melee, self-ward and self-heal.   That is how templars fight solo except that templars have more effective offensive attacks and a much more effective nukes.   Templars out-dps paladins in this patch.   That means we are no longer fighters but weak priests-tanks.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Calm down for a sec and tell me what you are expecting from the combat revamp... really im curious I mean, you are the blue collar paladin, full set of fulgi, bloodstone ring, diamondine bangle, you run around in EF with shining beacon our tier4 stance. You have 61.5% of mitigation and 57% of avoidance. What do you want ?  snap nuke for 1k every 30 sec ? heal for 900 every 4 sec ? ward for 700 every 15sec ? Priest dont have parry any more and the block rate of a buckler is 3%.... priest  are sitting ducks Mage can't root and burn anymore, no parry no shield... sitting ducks Scouts can solo if they kite, kiting is LONG and boring and you can't kite everywhere So want do you want ? </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Yrieldom on <span class=date_text>08-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 AM</span>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yrieldom wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Khurghan wrote:<BR>Actually these changes sound good news for paladins. I (like many others) rolled a pally to be a 'holy' tank not to solo, not to do dps but to be a tank. Other members can do the dps and the healing (my healing is simply there to enhance my own tanking and for that oh **** moment when the **** **** ***).<BR><BR>If I had wanted to be a light-tank/dps I would have rolled a swashie.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>A Paladin is not a Paladin without holy magic.   We have no holy magic in this patch.   The reactive attacks on my armor do double the damage or more of my offensive spells and arts.   The effect of Oath Strike, Refusal of Grace, Shatter Will etc.  is only barely noticable and those are the Adept III versions.   The damage of the starter versions will be much lower.   By the time the resistances of heroic and epic mobs are factored in, the damage done by our offensive spells and arts in tier5 will be close to zero. </P> <P>IMHO, in this patch our offensive spells and combat arts are not worth the power cost, not even the adept iii versions.   I think it is better to just melee, self-ward and self-heal.   That is how templars fight solo except that templars have more effective offensive attacks and a much more effective nukes.   Templars out-dps paladins in this patch.   That means we are no longer fighters but weak priests-tanks.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Calm down for a sec and tell me what you are expecting from the combat revamp... really im curious<BR><BR>I mean, you are the blue collar paladin, full set of fulgi, bloodstone ring, diamondine bangle, you run around in EF with shining beacon our tier4 stance. You have 61.5% of mitigation and 57% of avoidance. <BR><BR>What do you want ?  snap nuke for 1k every 30 sec ? heal for 900 every 4 sec ? ward for 700 every 15sec ?<BR>Priest dont have parry any more and the block rate of a buckler is 3%.... priest  are sitting ducks<BR>Mage can't root and burn anymore, no parry no shield... sitting ducks<BR>Scouts can solo if they kite, kiting is LONG and boring and you can't kite everywhere<BR><BR>So want do you want ?<BR><BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Yrieldom on <SPAN class=date_text>08-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:10 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What have I always expected from EQ2 - one word FUN.  Its a game and it should be FUN.  Playing the Paladin on the test server is no fun, worse it is BORING.   If a templar were given a kite shield, it would be a better Paladin than the one on the test server.

[Pathin Merrithay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yrieldom wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Khurghan wrote:<BR>Actually these changes sound good news for paladins. I (like many others) rolled a pally to be a 'holy' tank not to solo, not to do dps but to be a tank. Other members can do the dps and the healing (my healing is simply there to enhance my own tanking and for that oh **** moment when the **** **** ***).<BR><BR>If I had wanted to be a light-tank/dps I would have rolled a swashie.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>A Paladin is not a Paladin without holy magic.   We have no holy magic in this patch.   The reactive attacks on my armor do double the damage or more of my offensive spells and arts.   The effect of Oath Strike, Refusal of Grace, Shatter Will etc.  is only barely noticable and those are the Adept III versions.   The damage of the starter versions will be much lower.   By the time the resistances of heroic and epic mobs are factored in, the damage done by our offensive spells and arts in tier5 will be close to zero. </P> <P>IMHO, in this patch our offensive spells and combat arts are not worth the power cost, not even the adept iii versions.   I think it is better to just melee, self-ward and self-heal.   That is how templars fight solo except that templars have more effective offensive attacks and a much more effective nukes.   Templars out-dps paladins in this patch.   That means we are no longer fighters but weak priests-tanks.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Calm down for a sec and tell me what you are expecting from the combat revamp... really im curious<BR><BR>I mean, you are the blue collar paladin, full set of fulgi, bloodstone ring, diamondine bangle, you run around in EF with shining beacon our tier4 stance. You have 61.5% of mitigation and 57% of avoidance.<BR><BR>What do you want ?  snap nuke for 1k every 30 sec ? heal for 900 every 4 sec ? ward for 700 every 15sec ?<BR>Priest dont have parry any more and the block rate of a buckler is 3%.... priest  are sitting ducks<BR>Mage can't root and burn anymore, no parry no shield... sitting ducks<BR>Scouts can solo if they kite, kiting is LONG and boring and you can't kite everywhere<BR><BR>So want do you want ?<BR><BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Yrieldom on <SPAN class=date_text>08-06-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:10 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What have I always expected from EQ2 - one word FUN.  Its a game and it should be FUN.  Playing the Paladin on the test server is no fun, worse it is BORING.   If a templar were given a kite shield, it would be a better Paladin than the one on the test server. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And your version of fun is, of course, -everything-. You want it all, but without sacrifcing anything else in return, which is not only unrealistic, but also more then a little greedy. The DPS nerf is effecting just about every class (I would say that SK's came out better off... But have you ever seen an SK fight before? Their Harm Touch was a joke, and their Lifetaps were literally things to be shameful of. It's one of those ugly dresses grandma used to buy you a child; that you'd hide in the bottom of your dresser and hope to god none of your friends ever saw it and you'd never actually be forced to wear in public.)</P> <P>And as an aside, since I've seen you use this reasoning in a number of posts... What Templar is going to have the def buffs, the weapon weilding ability or the taunts that they would -require- to be anything even reotely near a succesful tank? Guess what? We can Rez better then they can... It's all give and take. No Temp is going to out-tank you unless you're doing something seriously fracked up.</P>

[Arathan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pathin Merrithay wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And your version of fun is, of course, -everything-. You want it all, but without sacrifcing anything else in return, which is not only unrealistic, but also more then a little greedy. The DPS nerf is effecting just about every class (I would say that SK's came out better off... But have you ever seen an SK fight before? Their Harm Touch was a joke, and their Lifetaps were literally things to be shameful of. It's one of those ugly dresses grandma used to buy you a child; that you'd hide in the bottom of your dresser and hope to god none of your friends ever saw it and you'd never actually be forced to wear in public.)</P> <P>And as an aside, since I've seen you use this reasoning in a number of posts... What Templar is going to have the def buffs, the weapon weilding ability or the taunts that they would -require- to be anything even reotely near a succesful tank? Guess what? We can Rez better then they can... It's all give and take. No Temp is going to out-tank you unless you're doing something seriously fracked up.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You're creating a straw man here and arguing against it. I don't think anyone would say that they want to do "-everything-" as a Paladin. Fun means having choices, solo or group. Fun is having content to do. Fun means combat is more than watching your paladin for five minutes on autoattack. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Paladin to me is a jack of all trades. We're a holy warrior not merely a tank, a fighter or a healer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are the "best" at nothing. However, we can do a bunch of tasks like healing, combat or tanking...ok. Just ok. Like a jack of all trades. That's why I became one, because I don't want to just sit there and be a meat shield, passively watching combat. I don't want to be know as the "heat mitigation" specialist as someone said before. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's boring. Wait times are boring. Autoattacking for minutes is boring when you already know the end result. Slow=boring. <BR></DIV> <DIV>These changes make combat for us boring. Not to mention the solo game for pallys will be finished. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2 cents. </DIV>

[Fellgaze]

<P>Blackweb, no offense intended at all but you are for all intents and purposes spamming this particular forum with threads that all state the same thing over and over again, occasionally taking a stab at being witty with terms like "Cleridin" and "Priestguardian". Look, we get it; you don't like the current changes. You really don't like the current changes.You REALLY don't like the current changes.  You REALLY AND TRULY don't like the current changes. We get it. Sheesh.</P> <P>I'm not going to bother pointing out yet again that said changes are at this time incomplete, still in test, and very very FAR from set in stone, since you don't seem to want to make an iota of allowance for this.</P> <P>Good God man, were I SOE, I'd leave the damned changes as is for a while just to razz you. You're obviously well spoken and educated, but right now you're a case study in alarmist hysteria. Relax already!!!</P>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fellgaze wrote:<BR> <P>Blackweb, no offense intended at all but you are for all intents and purposes spamming this particular forum with threads that all state the same thing over and over again, occasionally taking a stab at being witty with terms like "Cleridin" and "Priestguardian". Look, we get it; you don't like the current changes. You really don't like the current changes.You REALLY don't like the current changes.  You REALLY AND TRULY don't like the current changes. We get it. Sheesh.</P> <P>I'm not going to bother pointing out yet again that said changes are at this time incomplete, still in test, and very very FAR from set in stone, since you don't seem to want to make an iota of allowance for this.</P> <P>Good God man, were I SOE, I'd leave the damned changes as is for a while just to razz you. You're obviously well spoken and educated, but right now you're a case study in alarmist hysteria. Relax already!!!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is not about me, it is about the Paladin in EQ2.  Let's not make this personal.   If you continue to make personal comments about me, I will ignore your posts and no longer respond to them.

[warstomp]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> K'aldar wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lisasdarren wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR> <DIV>This may sound like a joke thread and I wish it were not.   I have come up with a way that SOE can keep some of us disgruntled Priestgaurdian(Paladins) after the combat changes, allow us to choose to become Templars or Gaurdians after the combat changes rather than a nerfed Priestgaurdian(Paladin).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I could choose to turn my character into something useful, most likely a Templar, I might continue to play EQ2.   The current iteration of the combat changes have caused me to lose interest in playing my Priestgaurdian(Paladin).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well since I always envisioned a Paladin as a fighter who could heal it seems to me there is nothing to be complaining about. We already knew we were overpowered, unless you disagree that being able to solo yellow heroics is overpowered. We are becoming holy warriors, which is a cross between priest and guardian in this game, so it looks like the changes are pretty much correct.<BR><BR>We take the role of tank with healing capacity and are the specialist in mitigating heat, divine and one physical damage type, from what I have read so far it seems our new abilities will nicely suit our tanking role.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If we were still fighters, I would agree with you.   <B>The character I played today on test is no longer a fighter</B>.   He can no longer fight.   <U> All he can do is tank</U>, do some weak heals and melee.   <B>Our offensive spells and combat arts have been rendered combat-ineffective to the point where we are no longer fighters</B>.   If Templars could equip a kite shield and there melee damage got a minor boost, they would be able to out-dps and out heal the Paladin on the test server. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest problem for Paladins will be leveling up.   It will be so boring and time consuming after the combat changes that few will ever make it to lvl 50 Paladin and why would they when they can be a Berzerker, Gaurdian or Monk?   Over time you will see fewer and fewer Paladins in EQ2 until they become rarer than a named spawn in Cazic Thule.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know what class is the big winner in all of this?   The Shadowknight.   If I were choosing a hybrid class, the Shadowknight would be it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>actually when you bought your copy of everquest 2 they made it quite clear that in the eq2 universe, fighter means tank. you want offensive skills be a mage or scout type. i dont' log on my paladin to solo, i play him when i want to lead a group to victory in perma or the like, taking massive amounts of damage like only us tanks can. when i want to solo i log my conj or my dirge.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well i cant tank because i cant find a group ever i sat there for an hour and 30 minutes once and never got a single group. And with these changes im starting to wish i picked a differnt class. And it seems to you i have pointed out some of us cant get groups so we cant ever get the chance to tank because everyone is lvl 50 or lvl 15 below because of frogs im not saying there bad i have one to i like them. I would also like to do some sort of damage not crap. Hopefully this combat change well turn out good some how.<BR>

[K'aldar]

warstomp what lvl is your pally? cuz if he's lower than 35 then i see where you're coming from.  so hard nowadays to get groups under that lvl (maybe even closer to 38 if i think about it) since ppl are either on low alts, high alts, or their lvl 50's. as for soloing here's how it is.. and i don't see how it can really be any different...   SoE is trying to make it so all classes can solo when they're lfg or otherwise, but naturally some classes will be more fun soloing than others as some are primarily groupers, and some mixed, and some a little better at soloing even atm.  for tanks and healers, the main groupers, i don't see how you could make them the kind of group classes they need to be AND the kind of soloers ppl want them to be without making them overpowered compared to other classes. it just doesn't work that way. dps classes are what you want to be if you want to be good all around, as their function is basically the same in groups and soloing.. damage. if they're good enough to take a big chunk outta heroic mobs then they can sure as hell hurt solo mobs pretty quickly. if you want to be a good grouper then be a class that primarily groups... and solos on the side, efficiently albiet slowly.    i'm sure i mixed a few things up somewhere along the line there, but thats generally what i'm thinking.. if you can point out where a group class solos as well as a solo class without making it unbalanced, then by all means point it out (but not the whole buff thing where you can be best tank with one buff, switch it up and be best dps next buff.. thats just ridiculous)      again, my $0.02 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Fellgaze]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR><BR>This is not about me, it is about the Paladin in EQ2.  Let's not make this personal.   If you continue to make personal comments about me, I will ignore your posts and no longer respond to them. <P><BR></P> <HR>   <P>Yes, it *is* about you now. It's about you because you are making extremely premature, hyper-inflated claims of doom for the Paladin class. You have become a force of rampant  negativity on these boards with absolutely no basis to support your claims <FONT color=#ff0000>because you steadfastly refuse to admit that the current changes to the Paladin class are not finalized and tuned</FONT>.</P> <P>Ignore my posts if it pleases you. I don't think I'll lose much sleep over it. But I assure you...I won't ignore yours. :smileywink:</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Fellgaze]

<P>From a thread by Cedrian, level 50 Paladin;</P> <P>"...Ok, because I'm bored and not at home I'll bite. 50 Raid Pally, Fabled Weapons, some fabled armor, all my support abilities are adept3/master. I'm not gonna go break down skills, because I don’t have the numbers with me, but I'll try to give some perspective....."</P> <P>Something tells me this gentleman is at least as qualified as Blackweb to speak on the subject, no? After a long, thoughtful and detailed post aboout all the changes, he concludes;</P> <P>"....<EM>Well other then an across the board nerf to everything, <FONT color=#66ff00>if I look at the buff changes as a sign of things to come the changes might not be too bad</FONT>. Our ability to tank has really been improved, I really like the way intervene is headed, if they keep the changes going smoothly, <FONT color=#66ff00>and we provide good valid feedback on Test and Beta we might come out of this OK</FONT>.<BR><BR>I might as well state I've seen the DPS nerf coming a mile away, and didnt choose the pally for their DPS ability, I chose it because it was a Paladin.<FONT color=#66ff00> For now, I do see the DPS nerf as going a little too far, but i'm reserving judgement until they finish tweaking</FONT>. Our autoattack damage now is a very significant chunk of our damage, which should make Haste users feel a bit more important. As far as DPS goes, I'm hoping when they finish it out we can sit somewhere around 100-150dps, seeing as how ive heard swashies and preds are pushing 300 now, and mages perhaps even moreso, so that doesnt seem to be asking much for an offensive stance paladin.<BR><BR>As far as what I'm looking into for changes:<BR>-Our heals need to be tweaked, the random heal amount is really annoying<BR>-Intervene line, maybe get more then 1 block every 30s recast<BR>-<FONT color=#66ff00>Get out DPS bumped up a bit more (changes are still in pogress for here though</FONT>)<BR>-Making sure the claimed 'nice array of taunts' actually appears<BR>-Maybe get our ward usable while running again (it was fun!)<BR>-Checking how useful the +slash/pierce/crush is on offensive stance, if it's weak maybe we can go for a DPS mod on it too or something....."</EM></P> <P><EM></EM> </P> <P>A high-level Paladin on Test who is not freaking out over the changes, likes a lot of them, and who understands that the adjustments to our DPS are not finished. </P> <P>Are we listening, class?<BR></P> <P> </P>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fellgaze wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR><BR>This is not about me, it is about the Paladin in EQ2.  Let's not make this personal.   If you continue to make personal comments about me, I will ignore your posts and no longer respond to them. <P><BR></P> <HR>   <P>Yes, it *is* about you now. It's about you because you are making extremely premature, hyper-inflated claims of doom for the Paladin class. You have become a force of rampant  negativity on these boards with absolutely no basis to support your claims <FONT color=#ff0000>because you steadfastly refuse to admit that the current changes to the Paladin class are not finalized and tuned</FONT>.</P> <P>Ignore my posts if it pleases you. I don't think I'll lose much sleep over it. But I assure you...I won't ignore yours. :smileywink:</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What is hyper-inflated about the screenshots?   I can only evaluate what I see.   I refuse to engage in idle speculation.    A normal mob repeatedly knocked me down.   I am flat on my a** in one of the screenshots.   When is the last time you were knocked down by a normal single down-arrow mob near your lvl?   How many perma-buffs can you use at one time right now?   How easy is it to interrupt your ward now?   These are all nerfs to the Paladion.   No exaggeration, no inflation, that is Paladin gameplay in the patch on the server.  I check every day for a new patch, and so far no new patch and no word of one.   </P> <P>On a personal note, I feel like I was led down the primrose path concerning the combat changes by SOE at the summit.   The EQ2 Team told me that Paladin damage might actually increase for those with Adept III or Master I skills.   Look at the combat changes on the test server.   A massive across the board damage nerf for the Paladin.   Many other nerfs as well.   Look at the posts I made in these forums concerning the summit.   Look at what SOE has put up on the test server.  Do the changes on the test server match what I said after returning from the summit?   SOE does not have a lot of credibility with me right now.  </P><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:04 AM</span>

[Fellgaze]

<P>It is hyper-inflated because every single one of your posts hysterically proclaims as a "fait accomplis" that the Paladin class is dead and buried when, in fact, it is evolving. The changes are not finalized, no one from SOE has stated "Ok, fighter arts and spells...all done. That's it, closing up shop. Paladins are fine".  </P> <P>You say Paladins are done for, in stagnation, and that there is no hope for them whatsoever.  You make no allowance for the possibility that they- and other fighter classes -are still being tweaked and adjusted.</P> <P>I (and the developers of the game) say Paladins are still being looked at, will receive further adjustments, and are in a state of evolution.</P> <P>Ergo, your claims are exagerrated and alarmist. </P> <DIV>EDIT: Beautiful Sunday morning here...I'm off for breakfast on a lovely terrasse outside. I'll be back later to check up on ye.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fellgaze on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:04 AM</span>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fellgaze wrote:<BR> <P>It is hyper-inflated because every single one of your posts hysterically proclaims as a "fait accomplis" that the Paladin class is dead and buried when, in fact, it is evolving. The changes are not finalized, no one from SOE has stated "Ok, fighter arts and spells...all done. That's it, closing up shop. Paladins are fine".  </P> <P>You say Paladins are done for, in stagnation, and that there is no hope for them whatsoever.  You make no allowance for the possibility that they- and other fighter classes -are still being tweaked and adjusted.</P> <P>I (and the developers of the game) say Paladins are still being looked at, will receive further adjustments, and are in a state of evolution.</P> <P>Ergo, your claims are exagerrated and alarmist. </P> <DIV>EDIT: Beautiful Sunday morning here...I'm off for breakfast on a lovely terrasse outside. I'll be back later to check up on ye.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Fellgaze on <SPAN class=date_text>08-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:04 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>My claims that the Paladin would not be nerfed or only slightly be nerfed after the summit are what were exaggerated.   Read my posts then and look at the screenshots of the combat changes on the test server.   Why should I give any creedence to statements to the effect that the combat changes are not finished?   I evaluate what I see.   The rest is just talk.   What I see does not match the talk I have previously heard.   I am from Misourri now, show me.</P> <P>Take a look at this, then look at the screenshots I posted:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=11170" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=11170</A></P><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:39 AM</span>

[slubins]

<P>I agree that freaking out is perhaps a bit premature. </P> <P>I have a couple questions/observations though...</P> <P>1. Maybe its me, but were the paladins so over damaging? I have a L40 paladin, that in my opinion, was able to contribute to a group, but in no way was I ever the "damage dealer". </P> <P>2. Tanking should be great in groups. If this was EQ1, where populations were more bountiful, I would not even care. In EQ2, people want to group, but can't as often (there just aren't the number of players). So soloing becomes an option. Now it seems that soloing is simply not worth the time. Should it take more than 1 minute to kill a mob (duoing) that is 15 levels less than you? (and I have fairly nice gear)</P> <P>3. It seems that they are either trying to slow down the leveling for game longevity (not so much as the players were overpowered, but because the player base I suspect is more veteran to MMORPG's) or trying to bring the grouping aspect as an almost necessity (People will burn out faster soloing than when grouping)</P> <P>4. Should cons mean something? Should every fairly adept player be able to kill a blue, regardless of class? I would think so. </P> <P>5. I hope that our DPS will be on par with fighters and not priests when all is said and done.</P> <P>6. Finally, I hope that the new desert city will become the social place where players can hang out. The suburb theory of hometowns has dampened the game, since hardly anyone (regardless of level, can hang out). That's why I like SP den.</P> <P>There is nothing wrong by having fun in the game, not invicibility, but simple fun.</P> <P> </P>

[Arathan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fellgaze wrote:<BR> <P> You make no allowance for the possibility that they- and other fighter classes -are still being tweaked and adjusted.</P> <P>I (and the developers of the game) say Paladins are still being looked at, will receive further adjustments, and are in a state of evolution.</P> <P>Ergo, your claims are exagerrated and alarmist. </P> <DIV>EDIT: Beautiful Sunday morning here...I'm off for breakfast on a lovely terrasse outside. I'll be back later to check up on ye.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Fellgaze on <SPAN class=date_text>08-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:04 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Fellgaze, you would be correct if the changes were several months down the road. However, you have to look at the development cycle here. The combat upgrade is happening at the same time as the expansion. It's not enough time to completely change what we've seen.  The combat revamp has been in development for months, its not going to change significantly in the time left. There will be tweaking, sure, but there will be no big changes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blackweb is completly right.The guy's done his homework and he's right to complain. Squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that. I think we're screwed regardless but maybe the complaining can make it a little less painful. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fellgaze]

<P>Sorry but there have *already* been 3 updates to the changes on test, which proves conclusively that these changes are NOT final and are NOT set in stone. And for the record, at this point Blackweb is not a squeaky wheel, he's a grinding metal-on-metal trainwreck. He has points, but he has beaten them to death so much and so thoroughly that I cannot respect him for doing so. There's a difference between voicing one's concerns and acting as if one's concerns are immutable, God-given truths. </P> <P>The changes are not months off, but nor are they days off. There are weeks' worth of testing left, and Blackweb began his tirades within 24 hours of the changes going live. Furthermore, his ranting hasn't evolved one bit since then. HE did some summary testing (against HEROIC mobs no less!!) and handed down <U><STRONG>his opinion</STRONG></U> as if it were now hard-coded into the game. </P> <P>At this point, he is just speculating on the C-U-R-R-E-N-T state of Paladins on Test...not on the final, live state. </P> <DIV> </DIV>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fellgaze wrote:<BR> <P>Sorry but there have *already* been 3 updates to the changes on test, which proves conclusively that these changes are NOT final and are NOT set in stone. And for the record, at this point Blackweb is not a squeaky wheel, he's a grinding metal-on-metal trainwreck. He has points, but he has beaten them to death so much and so thoroughly that I cannot respect him for doing so. There's a difference between voicing one's concerns and acting as if one's concerns are immutable, God-given truths. </P> <P>The changes are not months off, but nor are they days off. There are weeks' worth of testing left, and Blackweb began his tirades within 24 hours of the changes going live. Furthermore, his ranting hasn't evolved one bit since then. HE did some summary testing (against HEROIC mobs no less!!) and handed down <U><STRONG>his opinion</STRONG></U> as if it were now hard-coded into the game. </P> <P>At this point, he is just speculating on the C-U-R-R-E-N-T state of Paladins on Test...not on the final, live state. </P> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There is no speculation, the screenshots speak for themselves.   I have 2 Tier 5 Paladin characters Fellgaze.  Do you have even one?   If you do not play Paladin, what class do you play?

[Fellgaze]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fellgaze wrote:<BR> <P>Sorry but there have *already* been 3 updates to the changes on test, which proves conclusively that these changes are NOT final and are NOT set in stone. And for the record, at this point Blackweb is not a squeaky wheel, he's a grinding metal-on-metal trainwreck. He has points, but he has beaten them to death so much and so thoroughly that I cannot respect him for doing so. There's a difference between voicing one's concerns and acting as if one's concerns are immutable, God-given truths. </P> <P>The changes are not months off, but nor are they days off. There are weeks' worth of testing left, and Blackweb began his tirades within 24 hours of the changes going live. Furthermore, his ranting hasn't evolved one bit since then. HE did some summary testing (against HEROIC mobs no less!!) and handed down <U><STRONG>his opinion</STRONG></U> as if it were now hard-coded into the game. </P> <P>At this point, he is just speculating on the C-U-R-R-E-N-T state of Paladins on Test...not on the final, live state. </P> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There is no speculation, the screenshots speak for themselves.   I have 2 Tier 5 Paladin characters Fellgaze.  Do you have even one?   If you do not play Paladin, what class do you play? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>*sigh*</P> <P>Yes, I have a Paladin.</P> <P>Yes, I have been playing him since the game went live.</P> <P>No, he is not level 50. </P> <P>No, that is not relevant. </P> <P>No, you still will not acknowledge that these changes are impermanent. </P> <P>Yes, you sidestep that point in every post you make.</P> <P>No, there is no point to continuing this debate anymore. You're right. Paladins are dead and will receive no further corrections or changes, unlike every other class in the game. SOE is out to get us (they have some hidden agenda, you said so yourself in exactly those words) and they hate Paladins more than any other class in the game.</P> <P> </P>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR><BR>If we were still fighters, I would agree with you.   The character I played today on test is no longer a fighter.   He can no longer fight.    All he can do is tank, do some weak heals and melee.   <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What exactly did you think a fighter in Everquest 2 was, by the way?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, why are you comparing the changes to paladins as if they were the only class being changed?  Are they?  Are you really going to say that every single player is going to be thrilled with every single change in every single class?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you were level 50 as a Paladin, you'd realize that Paladins almost never get chosen to tank.  In fact, almost no fighters save for Guardians and the occasional Berserker are typically called upon to tank...even though the Fighter Archetype is supposed to be the "tank" Archetype.  Paladins should never be outdamaging scouts...but they do.  Paladins should never be outhealing Priests...but they can.  Paladins are ridiculously overpowered.  My Templar can't survive most solo encounters...but my Paladin Guildmates frequently rip through Heroic encounters frequently with little to no issue. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, you've levelled a paladin up to 41 in Everquest 2 and a paladin up to level 11 or so in World of Warcraft so that pretty much makes you an expert on the differences in the two games overall.  Now, you've played a paladin for a few hours on Test and suddenly you're an authority on that as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What were the parses you received?  What bugs did you note?  What changes did you think needed to happen to keep the paladin class balanced? Forget the rest of the classes and how they fit into the equation, right?</DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>From a soloing standpoint, there's little to no real weaknesses with the paladin class or the Fighter Archetype really, whereas with virtually every other class there are significant drawbacks.  This toning down toward all classes is necessary for the long term health of the game.  This toning down of paladins is necessary to retain role viability.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>My claims that the Paladin would not be nerfed or only slightly be nerfed after the summit are what were exaggerated.   </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If you made such claims, then you were very much in the wrong.  I was there at the Summit, and I heard no such assurances.  If anything was stated as such, then it was your interpretation that "nerfed slightly" was different than what Locke or others thought of as "nerfed slightly".  The very term is completely subjective and not one that can be arbitrarily stated as one single interpretation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As long as we're on the subject, I do recall hearing in one of the FanFaire open sessions (not Summit) that the entire Fighter class would be undergoing some significant changes, including changes to Brawlers and Crusaders to bring them more in line with Warriors as far as tanking abilities...and that these changes would require some trade-offs in damage or healing potential (something that Warriors cannot do).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR><BR>If we were still fighters, I would agree with you.   The character I played today on test is no longer a fighter.   He can no longer fight.    All he can do is tank, do some weak heals and melee.   <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What exactly did you think a fighter in Everquest 2 was, by the way?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, why are you comparing the changes to paladins as if they were the only class being changed?  Are they?  Are you really going to say that every single player is going to be thrilled with every single change in every single class?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you were level 50 as a Paladin, you'd realize that Paladins almost never get chosen to tank.  In fact, almost no fighters save for Guardians and the occasional Berserker are typically called upon to tank...even though the Fighter Archetype is supposed to be the "tank" Archetype.  Paladins should never be outdamaging scouts...but they do.  Paladins should never be outhealing Priests...but they can.  Paladins are ridiculously overpowered.  My Templar can't survive most solo encounters...but my Paladin Guildmates frequently rip through Heroic encounters frequently with little to no issue. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, you've levelled a paladin up to 41 in Everquest 2 and a paladin up to level 11 or so in World of Warcraft so that pretty much makes you an expert on the differences in the two games overall.  Now, you've played a paladin for a few hours on Test and suddenly you're an authority on that as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What were the parses you received?  What bugs did you note?  What changes did you think needed to happen to keep the paladin class balanced? Forget the rest of the classes and how they fit into the equation, right?</DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>From a soloing standpoint, there's little to no real weaknesses with the paladin class or the Fighter Archetype really, whereas with virtually every other class there are significant drawbacks.  This toning down toward all classes is necessary for the long term health of the game.  This toning down of paladins is necessary to retain role viability.  </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I believe you play Templar dont you?   A 60-70% damage nerf does not retain our role viablility, it obliterates it.    Take a look at the screenshots and the numbers.   I believe that in the current combat changes  you will find that Templars now out-dps Paladins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are a priest class, tell us, what is the damage of your primary nuke of your character currently on the test server?   Inquiring minds want to know...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact, I am going to log onto test and find out exactly how Paladins stack up against priest classes.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:13 PM</span>

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR><BR>If we were still fighters, I would agree with you.   The character I played today on test is no longer a fighter.   He can no longer fight.    All he can do is tank, do some weak heals and melee.  <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What exactly did you think a fighter in Everquest 2 was, by the way?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, why are you comparing the changes to paladins as if they were the only class being changed?  Are they?  Are you really going to say that every single player is going to be thrilled with every single change in every single class? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you were level 50 as a Paladin, you'd realize that Paladins almost never get chosen to tank.  In fact, almost no fighters save for Guardians and the occasional Berserker are typically called upon to tank...even though the Fighter Archetype is supposed to be the "tank" Archetype.  Paladins should never be outdamaging scouts...but they do.  Paladins should never be outhealing Priests...but they can.  Paladins are ridiculously overpowered.  My Templar can't survive most solo encounters...but my Paladin Guildmates frequently rip through Heroic encounters frequently with little to no issue. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, you've levelled a paladin up to 41 in Everquest 2 and a paladin up to level 11 or so in World of Warcraft so that pretty much makes you an expert on the differences in the two games overall.  Now, you've played a paladin for a few hours on Test and suddenly you're an authority on that as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What were the parses you received?  What bugs did you note?  What changes did you think needed to happen to keep the paladin class balanced? Forget the rest of the classes and how they fit into the equation, right?</DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>From a soloing standpoint, there's little to no real weaknesses with the paladin class or the Fighter Archetype really, whereas with virtually every other class there are significant drawbacks.  This toning down toward all classes is necessary for the long term health of the game.  This toning down of paladins is necessary to retain role viability. </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I believe you play Templar dont you?   A 60-70% damage nerf does not retain our role viablility, it obliterates it.    Take a look at the screenshots and the numbers.   I believe that in the current combat changes  you will find that Templars now out-dps Paladins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are a priest class, tell us, what is the damage of your primary nuke of your character currently on the test server?   Inquiring minds want to know...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact, I am going to log onto test and find out exactly how Paladins stack up against priest classes. <BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Go ahead.  I recommend Combat Stats to parse it out.  Do you also have a Tier 5 Cleric sitting around on your Test account now?  If so, make sure you give them a good solid run next to each other.  I truly hope Paladins no longer get chosen as secondary healers over Druids finally, while we're on the subject (since they can off tank, deal better DPS, AND cast comparable healing in some cases).</P> <P>Paladins NEED adjustment.  They've needed it for a while now.  Quite frankly, many classes need the adjustement - for better and worse. </P> <P>(P.S. - I have access to a Tier 5 Paladin as well as my Tier 5 Templar.  Care to hear about the Tier 5 Fury, too...just to make sure my opinion matters to you?)</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kendricke wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Go ahead.  I recommend Combat Stats to parse it out.  Do you also have a Tier 5 Cleric sitting around on your Test account now?  If so, make sure you give them a good solid run next to each other.  I truly hope Paladins no longer get chosen as secondary healers over Druids finally, while we're on the subject (since they can off tank, deal better DPS, AND cast comparable healing in some cases).</P> <P>Paladins NEED adjustment.  They've needed it for a while now.  Quite frankly, many classes need the adjustement - for better and worse. </P> <P>(P.S. - I have access to a Tier 5 Paladin as well as my Tier 5 Templar.  Care to hear about the Tier 5 Fury, too...just to make sure my opinion matters to you?)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I dont want to see this turn into an us vs them with classes sniping back and forth with each other.   Each class has its own concerns.  I do not want to see any class get nerfed to the point where they are unplayable including priests.   What I want to know is this:</P> <P>Moorgaurd posted a class damage ranking after the changes.   Priests Mages at the top, then scouts, then fighters then priests.   I was wondering where each class stands after the current version of the changes.    It would be helpful to know how the primary priest nuke spell (whatever your version of smite is) stacks up against Refusal of Grace, the primary Paladin nuke spell before the changes?   I am not looking for priests to be nerfed.  I dont want to see any class nerfed to the point where it is no fun to play.<BR></P>

[Yrield]

<div></div>Secondary healer over druid ? No one ever asked me to be "secondary healer" And i have been chosen over Zerker more than once for the tanking role (comparable gears and lvl = im MT) Pretty pointless to be secondary healer when your best heal is self-only.... <div></div><p>Message Edited by Yrieldom on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:04 PM</span>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yrieldom wrote:<BR> Secondary healer over druid ? No one ever asked me to be "secondary healer" <BR>And i have been chosen over Zerker more than once for the tanking role (comparable gears and lvl = im MT)<BR><BR>Pretty pointless to be secondary healer when your best heal is self-only....<BR> <P>Message Edited by Yrieldom on <SPAN class=date_text>08-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:04 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think the best comparisons that can be made are within the fighter archetype.   I would like to know how Paladins fit into the class damage rankings in the combat changes that Moorgaurd posted.

[Kendricke]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yrieldom wrote:<BR> Secondary healer over druid ? No one ever asked me to be "secondary healer" <BR>And i have been chosen over Zerker more than once for the tanking role (comparable gears and lvl = im MT)<BR><BR>Pretty pointless to be secondary healer when your best heal is self-only....<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I've been in many groups that chose to take a paladin instead of taking a secondary healer with my Templar in the group.  </DIV>

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kendricke wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Yrieldom wrote: <div></div>Secondary healer over druid ? No one ever asked me to be "secondary healer" And i have been chosen over Zerker more than once for the tanking role (comparable gears and lvl = im MT)Pretty pointless to be secondary healer when your best heal is self-only.... <hr> </blockquote> <div>I've been in many groups that chose to take a paladin instead of taking a secondary healer with my Templar in the group.  </div><hr></blockquote>Bad idea really; Fury buff group dps and heal more than pally Warden have duststorm to grealtly reduce the damage taken by the MT and heal more than pally Both druids have better group buff than pally I see no reason to take a pally over a druid if you look for a secondary healer I can see alot of reasons to take a pally (or any others fighters) over a pred/rogue/summoner if you look for dps/utility, its wrong if you ask me but its true on live</span><div></div>

[Coho1]

<DIV>I'll wait and see. If DPS and spells are trashed I'll just relax for abit while they attempt(maybe) a fix.   </DIV> <DIV>D&D games are coming out with good established game rules.:smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Kutark]

<DIV>Well the problem with paladins is we are overpowered in the dmg dept.  Once you get into the higher levels about 38 or so +, we get a LOT of dmg spells/arts. I currently have 10 that i cycle through and can do some sick dmg already.  I'm using app iv's and adept 1's.  The other thing i've noticed is that our adept 3's seem to scale a lot more than most classes.  I do know there are paladins regularly doing 250+ DPS in raid situations which IMO is not right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the flipside, from everything i've read, i do think at this point in time SOE is kind of having a knee jerk reaction to the issue.  Again, i have some faith in SOE that they won't completely ruin our class, but as it stands right now i do they think they hit us a little too hard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless we've still got a month or so of balancing left, so i'm not really putting too much salt in the initial impressions.</DIV>