How useful are Paladins in EQ2? Coming from a Paladin in WoW

[medell]

<DIV>I have played out WoW as a 60 Paladin and that class has major problems in that game.  We can't tank nearly as well as a warrior, our DPS is pathetic, we have no ranged or run stopping abilities, in the high level raids we are basically plate wearing buff/cleanse/heal bots.  Some Paladins even forgo the use of plate and wear cloth for the mana pool and regeneration.  A quick glance at the Paladin forum on the WoW boards is all you need to see just how disgruntled the majority of players are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am only a level 14 Crusader heading towards a Paladin class but I want to make sure I don't invest a lot of time into my character only to find out I am not needed at higher levels.  So once again, how are Paladins in EQ2?</DIV>

[Kutark]

<DIV>There are a lot of changes that are going to be made here in the near future.  You may wanna consider just holding off or getting another class through the basic levels you were considering in case you decide not to play this guy, you will have a head start.</DIV>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> medellon wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have played out WoW as a 60 Paladin and that class has major problems in that game.  We can't tank nearly as well as a warrior, our DPS is pathetic, we have no ranged or run stopping abilities, in the high level raids we are basically plate wearing buff/cleanse/heal bots.  Some Paladins even forgo the use of plate and wear cloth for the mana pool and regeneration.  A quick glance at the Paladin forum on the WoW boards is all you need to see just how disgruntled the majority of players are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am only a level 14 Crusader heading towards a Paladin class but I want to make sure I don't invest a lot of time into my character only to find out I am not needed at higher levels.  So once again, how are Paladins in EQ2?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>At this time, Paladins need some tweaking and balancing with other fighters but for the most part we are doing well.   After the upcoming "Combat Upgrade"  that could all change.   I wish I had a better answer for you.</DIV>

[medell]

Maybe I should have waited a couple weeks before coming back :smileyvery-happy: so I would have been oblivious to the changes.  Then again I am only level 14 so I probably won't notice much anyway.  In the short time I have been playing MMORPG's, WoW especially, it seems that hybrid classes just don't pay off.  If you want to be a tank be a warrior(guardian is the EQ2 equivalent I think)if you want to heal be a priest, if you want to do damage be a mage, etc.  These "jack of all trades" characters, while seemingly fun to play, really suffer end game when specific, well-defined roles function best.

[Makabr]

You cant really compare WOW and EQ2... i had the wow collectors set and i was completely convinced that wow would be the death of all other MMOs... the fact is blizzard has very little grasp of the genre and WoW isnt challenging or interesting. Its diablo really... more complex but its the same roots. As for investing time in a class that wont matter... lets put it this way ive never invited a class to a group and regreted the decision based on their class (lets face it some people suck). Every class has a place and it sounds like the up coming revamp is going to sharpen that. This is the only MMO where DPS classes (scouts) seem to be rare, usually (any wow player knows this) the DPS classes are too plentiful. EQ2 like any MMO is always lite on healers... but they've done some interesting things to the healing classes to make them more than heal bots. Though thats what groups REALLY want them to do and no bells and whistles will ever stop that. I love my Paladin, i do enought dmg to see the mobs health go down and i save my group mates butt's constantly. Get quick with your wards and your LoH button and you'll be loved. <div></div>

[Doom_Hammer]

<DIV>I'll add my 2c worth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a crusader then Paladin, I have NEVER had problems running solo.</DIV> <DIV>I have NEVER had problems finding a group. NEVER had problems being MT.</DIV> <DIV>I can PL people, by myself, pull easily, taunt well enough (assuming the DPS isn't going out of his way to make it difficult for me) although I do have top of the line items thanks to hard work and good friends. I LOVE being a Paladin, and if Sony didnt change a thing, that would be fine with me. </DIV> <DIV>     </DIV>

[Doom_Hammer]

<DIV>double post. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Doom_Hammer on <span class=date_text>08-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:14 AM</span>

[MeridianR]

Currently this is how I rank us: (from personal experience) -- Solo - Pretty good, can take orange con solo mobs fairly easy, and with the right gear Blue ^^ Heroics are fairly easy -- Group - Can tank single group encounters fine, no problems at all. Issues might arise when additional group encounters add, but can be handled if you have a good group. -- Group (Epic x2)  - Normally don't have any issues here as long as we generate enough hate in the beginning, and continue to add it throughout. -- Raid (Epic x4)    - At end game now, we can add good dps via our AoE (especially with +haste spells, etc) and also end up rezzing during battle since along with dirges we have a great rez. Spot healing / Warding helps out in a tight squeeze. After the Combat Revamp, what I think we will be ranked as: -- Solo - See Guardian -- Group - See Guardian -- Group x2 - What Paladin? What class is that, sorry we don't need them. -- Group x4 - /ooc L60 Paladin LFG /ooc L60 Paladin LFG - I HAVE FABLED /ooc L60 Paladin LFG  - PLEASE I AM SO BORED /ooc L60 Guardian  LFG  - PST Pallyincognito /ooc HAHAHA look at all of Pally's looking for a group /ooc Can you guy's mentor down and help me kill Varsoon / Everling, etc.. Of course I am just being a smart [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], but hey it's the morning and I was up to 2am trying to kill a buggy Darathar <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Rellikd]

25 pally here, and i must say my experiance with the pally is great. I played a summoner til lvl 18, didnt much like it. Re-rolled a pally (played one on eq1 for a while). I'll usually logg on, slap on lfg, and solo things until I get a tell/invite. Soloing is great. Takes little more time then I want it to but I have rarely had a fight where i went below half mana and hp... (bout only time i dip below is when fighting ^^ blues as stated earlyer) In a group I tank. Any add and I switch to it, taunt it once or twice, then click back on the original mob. I rarely loose agro to anyone in the group. If I do, a couple heals and a heroic opportunity and i'm back on. If I ever for some reason cant get agro I heal alot. This class is really balanced out. Its exactly the way we should be at this lvl at least. I dont do ALOT of dammage, but when I swing good I can see the mobs hp bar have a good size chunk taken out of it. I know i'm low lvl now, and things do change drastically later on in lvl's, but as of now, lvl 25, i'm completly happy with the paladin as is. The new combat revamp will only strengthen my love for the class. <div></div>

[RaptorBite]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR>Currently this is how I rank us: (from personal experience)<BR><BR>-- Solo - Pretty good, can take orange con solo mobs fairly easy, and with the right gear Blue ^^ Heroics are fairly easy<BR><BR>-- Group - Can tank single group encounters fine, no problems at all. Issues might arise when additional group encounters add, but can be handled if you have a good group.<BR><BR>-- Group (Epic x2)  - Normally don't have any issues here as long as we generate enough hate in the beginning, and continue to add it throughout.<BR><BR>-- Raid (Epic x4)    - At end game now, we can add good dps via our AoE (especially with +haste spells, etc) and also end up rezzing during battle since along with dirges we have a great rez. Spot healing / Warding helps out in a tight squeeze.<BR><BR><BR>After the Combat Revamp, what I think we will be ranked as:<BR><BR>-- Solo - See Guardian<BR>-- Group - See Guardian<BR>-- Group x2 - What Paladin? What class is that, sorry we don't need them.<BR>-- Group x4 - <BR><BR>/ooc L60 Paladin LFG <BR>/ooc L60 Paladin LFG - I HAVE FABLED<BR>/ooc L60 Paladin LFG  - PLEASE I AM SO BORED<BR>/ooc L60 Guardian  LFG  - PST Pallyincognito<BR>/ooc HAHAHA look at all of Pally's looking for a group<BR>/ooc Can you guy's mentor down and help me kill Varsoon / Everling, etc..<BR><BR>Of course I am just being a smart [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], but hey it's the morning and I was up to 2am trying to kill a buggy Darathar <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, they said after the combat re-vamp, Paladins and SKs will be better tanks and will be able to tank raids in place of Guardians, they said you will probably still want a guardian MT if you have one, but Pally/SK wont be impossible anymore.  Also we will be getting different stances so we wont be useless if we are not MT... at least thats what i heard

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>RaptorBite wrote:Actually, they said after the combat re-vamp, Paladins and SKs will be better tanks and will be able to tank raids in place of Guardians, they said you will probably still want a guardian MT if you have one, but Pally/SK wont be impossible anymore.  Also we will be getting different stances so we wont be useless if we are not MT... at least thats what i heard <div></div><hr></blockquote>know any raiding guilds that DON'T have a guardian?  i don't ... so i hope we get a good dps stance, but given the dps nerf, i can't see why you'd want us.  we may become group-cure bots so that people don't have to time AEs ... other than that, i'm at a loss for our new role ...</span><div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>The honest answer is that we dont know...even right now our role is in flux. Some palys are raid tanks, some are not...</P> <P>Some palys are rez bots and wait..were ALL rez bots! :smileysurprised:</P> <P>j/k..seriously though, our role has never really been defined. I could sit here and tell you what we CAN do, but since we can do a little but everything, that wont help you. Can we tank? yep, better IMO than any tank other than a Guard. You wont see many Palys out there casting and healing. We do that, but in the process of tanking. Our DPS is decent right now, but SoE decided that wasnt "healthy" for the game.</P> <P>So keep your fingers crossed and hope the revamp doesnt make you go back to WoW.</P> <p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>08-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:10 AM</span>

[Nurta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>The honest answer is that we dont know...even right now our role is in flux. Some palys are raid tanks, some are not...</P> <P>Some palys are rez bots and wait..were ALL rez bots! :smileysurprised:</P> <P><STRONG><EM><FONT color=#ffff00>j/k..seriously though, our role has never really been defined</FONT></EM></STRONG>. I could sit here and tell you what we CAN do, but since we can do a little but everything, that wont help you. Can we tank? yep, better IMO than any tank other than a Guard. You wont see many Palys out there casting and healing. We do that, but in the process of tanking. Our DPS is decent right now, but SoE decided that wasnt "healthy" for the game.</P> <P>So keep your fingers crossed and hope the revamp doesnt make you go back to WoW.</P> <P>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <SPAN class=date_text>08-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:10 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I disagree with you here.  I know my role, be it in a group or raid.  In raids the raid also knows my role.  How can you say we don't have a role right now? I have never had issues being MT in a group, sure I take more damage due to my lack of defense abilities but I can still do it.  So in a group setting, I am either MT or DPS/utility tank.  In raids depending on which group I'm in I use my various buffs (oh sure they suck compared to other warrior buffs but our wisdom buffs do help some as does our STA/STR and AC buffs).  I rez, I spot heal important classes like healers/enchanters and I DPS when necessary.  I do all of this efficiently and quite well.  I have even been on raids where a Paladin properly equipped could MA adds in a raid.</P> <P>I know my role now, I like my role now.  Sure it's not perfect but I don't honestly have a ton to complain about.  I'd like to see broken spells fixed, I'd like to see better buffs or do away with buff stacking (which I think they are), I'd like to keep my rez or if I can't, I'd like another class defining role.  I'd really like to see LoH heal for more damage when you have a 9-10k tank and you toss LoH it's like sprinkling water.</P> <P>I enjoy what I can do in raids and groups and I hope to be able to keep enjoying it.  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[djhbeek]

well, i think he is right personally ... our raid role at least never really was defined well, but we ended up being a pretty good utility class.  now it seems like SOE somehow decided that we had too much utility and are thinking about nerfing almost all of it (rez, dps, spot healing, etc).  IMHO, they need to come up with a new raid role for us, or let us keep our utility.  the dps nerf is fine, scouts really got the raw end of that deal so far, but i really don't understand the need to nerf healing in raids at least. <div></div>

[MeridianR]

Jack of all trades, master of none...   <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>I not saying we dont have a role in a raid, Nurta. Im saying our role in a raid is not defined. For example...whats a guardians role in a raid? Whats a warlock/ wizards role in a raid? Whats an assasins job in a raid? what is the illusionist/ coercer in a raid? see? everytime u read one of those..u instantly got a mental picture of what they do.</P> <P>Now, what does a Paladin do in a raid? hmn..can u pin it down? we do a little bit of everything..which was what I posted. :smileywink:</P> <p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>08-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:15 AM</span>

[Nurta]

<P>We are a hybrid class, we don't have a "specific" role as Phov said "jack of all trades master of none".  From the onset we have been deemed utility.  That's fine, I actually don't mind it; and I agree I could care less about DPS.  </P> <P>But I don't want to lose my other raid roles:  Rez and Spot Heal</P> <P>We need some tweaking sure, if they take away rez I want to know what the heck they expect Paladins to be.  Oh and you don't need a guardian to tank raid mobs.  I've seen quite a few successful raids with a zerker tanking and even a paladin being the MA.   If all of our spells worked like they should or if they were on par with some other classes we'd be even better, I don't want another useless fluff spell.  I'd be happy with a role similar to EQ1, paladins had some awesome stuns the stuns in EQ2 aren't nearly as good....cast timers, recast timers, and power efficieny sucks <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Ive tanked some raids too...but only the low lvl ones...when the guild is doing dara, nag, or krathuk..it just makes more sense for me to rez and heal...not that I cant do it, but my guild feels more comfortable with palys spotchecking.</P> <P>Can u imagine palys losing the combat rez and their heals being nerfed, along with DPS? ack, it hurts to even thnk about it....i'm feeling faint...medic!!!</P>

[GilfalasElaandrin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> medellon wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have played out WoW as a 60 Paladin and that class has major problems in that game.  We can't tank nearly as well as a warrior, our DPS is pathetic, we have no ranged or run stopping abilities, in the high level raids we are basically plate wearing buff/cleanse/heal bots.  Some Paladins even forgo the use of plate and wear cloth for the mana pool and regeneration.  A quick glance at the Paladin forum on the WoW boards is all you need to see just how disgruntled the majority of players are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am only a level 14 Crusader heading towards a Paladin class but I want to make sure I don't invest a lot of time into my character only to find out I am not needed at higher levels.  So once again, how are Paladins in EQ2?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>NOW: Paldadins are great fun. Great DPS (yes really we actually are), great tanks in any group and can and do contribute to the raid scene with DPS, occasional tanking (depending on guild) and the best in combat rez in game. While Guardians are the 'absolute best' tanks for taunting and taking raw damage,berserkers, shadowknights and paladins can also do the job if allowed. But guardians are the 'pure defense' oriented tank and as such they have the edge/advantage in situations that call for <U>nothing</U> but taunt and survivability.</P> <P>FUTURE: Combat rebalancing is in the works. Overall a massive undertaking but one that will establish many classes to what they should have been. Overall DPS on ALL tanks will be dropping. We are doing more than the dev's had planned, OFTEN outdamaging the 'dps' scout classes and mage types in many instances. As a result they are also rebalancing mob hit points and resists so that soloing in the new system will seem identical to how it currently is while group mobs of any color WILL require a group to deal with (currently at certain levels we can solo group ^^ green and rarely group ^^ blue mobs).</P> <P>So while you will see a drop in actual DPS, that drop will be TANK wide, not only us and it mostly will only be niticable on group mobs if we try to solo them. The Paladin of EQ 2 is supposed to be a tank who did heavy damage and had some healing. Currently we are just that but we do too much damage.</P> <DIV>Consequently the tanking gaps are too large for SOE's taste as well so you will probably see that tightened up between the tank classes as all non guardian tanks will probably be receiving a few more taunts and a boost to how we can add buffs to our groups so that we tank better than we do now (which is, in my experience) pretty darned good as it is).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that currently the balance between DPS, defense and healing is currently very good on the paladin. I hope that after the combat revamp they retain the feel of that balance and if they do, I think we are going to be ok.</DIV>

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>GilfalasElaandrin wrote:<p>As a result they are also rebalancing mob hit points and resists so that soloing in the new system will seem identical to how it currently is while group mobs of any color WILL require a group to deal with (currently at certain levels we can solo group ^^ green and rarely group ^^ blue mobs).</p><hr></blockquote>I have yet to see any concrete info on how they are going to do this (preserve the same speed in soloing).  It seems like the dps nerf will inevitably make us solo like guardians (take less damage, but kill alot slower).</span><div></div>

[Kutark]

<DIV>I love this mentality that a hybrid can't have a well defined roll...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously Paladins in EQ1 had a great roll.  Of course we didnt tank uber mobs, but we were the ultimate group tank.  Because *gasp* we could taunt better than a warrior, but by god we just didn't take the hits as well.  Its amazing how that worked out, we still had other uses in a raid (off tanking, LoH, backup heals for group members, rezzing, etc)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm fine with getting hosed in the DPS dept, i've always thought we were a little overpowered in that respect.  I'm just going to be ultra [Removed for Content] if they turn us into some gimped wanna be guardian/healer with a couple spells that will probably end up being useless in the long run.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, i'm not going to pass any judgement right now, i wont lie, i dont have faith at this point based off of what i've heard, and based off of how things are going now, but i wont open the floodgates until i have the facts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm really heavily thinking about playing my summoner.  It just will frustrate the hell out of me to not be able to play the class i've enjoyed for so long in so many games, because the EQ2 devs have some wack [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] idea of what a paladin should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It it ain't broke, don't fix it, and if it is broke, only fix what needs to be fixed.</DIV>

[djhbeek]

<div></div>Creeping Featurism (n): The tendency for anything complicated to become even more complicated because people keep saying “<span class="quote">Gee, it would be even better if it had this feature too</span>”. The result is usually a patchwork because it grew one ad-hoc step at a time, rather than being planned. Planning is a lot of work, but it's easy to add just one extra little feature to help someone ... and then another ... and another.... --- I think the combat changes fit the bill for this, like you said.  Anyone remember when the combat changes were _just_ about fixing the agro for heals for templars vs wardens and fixing the DPS for scouts and mages (who somehow got lucky and were, to a large extent, the only class to be changed so far). <div></div><p>Message Edited by djhbeek on <span class=date_text>08-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:04 PM</span>

[sliderhouserules]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kutark wrote:<div> </div> <div>It it ain't broke, don't fix it, and if it is broke, only fix what needs to be fixed.</div><hr></blockquote></span> The archetype system is broken... they're fixing it.

[GidionSWE]

We can tank, ive tanked zalak and drayek etc..Never tried anything harder then that and seriously, we wouldnt even try motm or darathar whatever if we didnt have a guardian online...Perhaps that will change now, perhaps after the revamp if the guardian is a no-show we'd try that stuff but who knows. However id rather see something to the effect of...Oh crap, we dont have a paladin now we cant do the arch lich ... or oh crap we dont have a monk, cant do motm now. That would be sweet imo (alltough something like this has been discussed in lots of threads already). By the looks of it though it seems we will be pretty useless when we cant tank and that will only happen if theres no guardian around (yeah right! - that'll happen 1 night a year in a serious guild, new years eve lol)

[Kutark]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sliderhouserules wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kutark wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It it ain't broke, don't fix it, and if it is broke,<STRONG><U> only fix what needs to be fixed.</U></STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN><BR>The archetype system is broken... they're fixing it.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[djhbeek]

yah i agree kutark.  in order to believe that they are only fixing what needs fixing, you'd have to believe that almost all combat arts for all classes and all items and all mobs are broke. ... in which case, what have we been doing for like 10 months ... i don't mind them changing things just for the sake of making them better, but at this point they have been delaying much needed fixes by increasing the scope of this project periodically ... <div></div>

[Maxym]

<P>I gotta agree.</P> <P>Level 37 now & I can pull argo off most berzerkers same level & have up to 2 levels higher when needed. When I pull I hold argo well have had several Templars & inquisiters tell me with Adept 3 healing spells it's amazing how well I keep argo.</P> <P>I can solo well, doing like most of you & putting up LFG & then go solo some blue heroics, currently in D'morte till someone sends me a tell for a group usually in RV.</P> <P>I love my pally. Have 9 other alts but none I play or like as much as him.</P> <P>GOD SOE you already ruined SWG with your stupid unwanted combat revamp don't do it to EQ2 also or this boy is taking his Pally skills to somewhere else that appreciates them more.</P> <P>Should be a lawsuit, afterall I did not play THIS game for over a year just to have it revamp from under me, I want my 3 years money back for the games YOU did & YOU want to change! Did anyone really ask for all of that?</P> <P>Maxiimus Silverbane 37 Paladin - Nektolus Server</P> <P>Many alts - Long live the sexy & Beautiful Antonia Bayle... especially the 5 real models that well you know... woot!</P>