Concerns

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV> <DIV>I 've seen alot of threads here from people who are confused about the combat revamp. I think we're all a bit confused and apprehensive about the changes and we've all heard rumors and whatnot. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The combat revamp is scary. First we we will have relearn our classes. The respec the DEVS are giving us is an indicator of just how much things are going to change. I am of the opinion that this revamp will do Palys more harm than good because of the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a) ALL fighters classes are getting a DPS nerf. Moorguard stated that even though some fighters are in different DPS tiers, that a well geared and played guard will be able to DPS on the same lvl as an average or poorly played Monk, Sk's, etc. This means that the DPS diff will be pretty small. The Inverse DOES not apply. Moorguard also stated that guards will STILL have more def and be the preferred tank. More taunts, more mitigation, ETC. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>b) If all fighters do is TANK, then why play any fighter OTHER than a guard? Utility and DPS being roughly equal, why play a bers over a guard? If the classes are so specialized in tanking, people will choose tanks based on tanking ability.  So why pick any other fighter when a guard is CLEARLY designed to be the BETTER tank?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>c) Why have more than one tank in a raid or grp? I wouldnt. I can substitute that extra fighter for a class that has better DPS and utility.  Coupled with the DPS nerf, theres going to be alot of tanks LFG or trying to solo a mob that takes 5 minutes to take down. What people dont seemt to understand is that Palys DPS has been brought down to the guard lvl. This means that Sworn Strike nuke that did 700, now does <STRONG><U>100.</U>  </STRONG>The DPS nerf and guard preferred tanking are taken straight out of Moorguards posts.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Why pick a paly over a guard, if the paly has less hit points, less taunts, <STRONG><U>SAME</U> </STRONG>dps, and less def buffs? REMEMBER, our job is now PURE TANKING. I've heard the same rumor that you guys have, that our rez is now OUT of combat, our single target heal has gone down by alot, our DPS has gone down 3/4ths of what it used to be, etc...granted these are all rumors, but I've always been of the belief that wheres theres smoke, there's a fire.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The approach that SoE has taken gives me ZERO confidence in their ability to balance out chars. They either go underboard or overboard. When they fix something, they break something else. These are my beliefs, my opinion. You all know by now how strongly I feel about Paladins. I have fought for this class day in and day out, since i started realizing just how unbalanced tanking skills are spread between the classes.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've always thought that if you're going to have ALL fighters be tanks, then there has to be extreme differences in tanks..such as </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if <U>Tank A</U> can sit there and take very little damage while his grp takes out mobs easily, then<U> Tank B</U> should have such nice DPS that the mob dies just as easily.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this is not the case, then tanks should be balanced as to have EQUAL tanking skills, just differently. A monks agi should allow him to live just as long as a Guards defense, thereby allowing both classes to tank the same mobs.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This might be case in the revamp. Fighters might be made so they are all desirable....but somehow I doubt this is going to happen. The more I read about the revamp, and dev posts the more I realize that nothing has changed in regards to tanking. Guards will STILL be the preferred tank, and other fighters are getting nerfed in DPS, even tanks that are DPS-based, such as bruisers and monks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                             <U>Old Tanking scale</U>  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>More DPS, Less                                                                                                                                                 More Mitigation Mitigation                                                                                                                                                              Less DPS                                                                                                                                                          </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>                             Monk</DIV> <DIV>                                                               Sk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                   Bers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                        palys</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                                                  guards</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>        </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                               </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                              <U>New tanking Scale</U></DIV> <DIV><U></U> </DIV> <DIV><U></U> </DIV> <DIV><U></U> </DIV> <DIV><U></U> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                      Bruiser</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                  Monk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                             Bers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                         Sk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                     Palys</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                   Guards</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do these differences warrant any tank other than the current status quo, minus the extra DPS that made monks and bruisers special? Tanking looks the same to me, just that the extra damage that made those other tanks desirable and made up for the lack of mitigation has been taken away.                                                                                   </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                                                                                       </DIV></DIV>

[Coho1]

<DIV> I solo alot and it already takes too long to kill low lvl green mobs. AND I don't tank unless I have to..otherwise I OT. Whats going to happen to that role? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I now pay monthly instead of multimonth.</DIV> <DIV>With Dragon Age, D&D online and others coming up Sony has to be careful.  I'm sure Sony has no desire to wreck the game and lose players anymore than you do.:smileywink::smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[djhbeek]

 <span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div><div>c) Why have more than one tank in a raid or grp? I wouldnt. I can substitute that extra fighter for a class that has better DPS and utility.  Coupled with the DPS nerf, theres going to be alot of tanks LFG or trying to solo a mob that takes 5 minutes to take down. What people dont seemt to understand is that Palys DPS has been brought down to the guard lvl. This means that Sworn Strike nuke that did 700, now does <strong><u>100.</u>  </strong>The DPS nerf and guard preferred tanking are taken straight out of Moorguards posts.</div> <div><strong></strong> </div></div></blockquote> <div> <div>Well .. there are those raids where you have to play musical tanks (K'Dal and Nagalik are 2 ... alot of Nek2 is easier with more than one tank as well).  plus, since buff stacking will be less of an option, i think you are gonna see more tanks taking dives and your gonna need a second tank while the first one gets rezzed.  take into account the fights where it helps to off tank the adds, and i hope in a lot of cases 2-4 tanks is gonna be the ideal number. </div> </div> <blockquote> <div> <div>Why pick a paly over a guard, if the paly has less hit points, less taunts, <strong><u>SAME</u> </strong>dps, and less def buffs? REMEMBER, our job is now PURE TANKING. I've heard the same rumor that you guys have, that our rez is now OUT of combat, our single target heal has gone down by alot, our DPS has gone down 3/4ths of what it used to be, etc...granted these are all rumors, but I've always been of the belief that wheres theres smoke, there's a fire. </div></div> </blockquote> less taunts will be less of an issue i think.  getting more and more certain MG meant pallies WILL have a nice array of taunts.  <insert grumbling here about the failure of SOE to clarify this>. <blockquote> <div> <div>The approach that SoE has taken gives me ZERO confidence in their ability to balance out chars. They either go underboard or overboard. When they fix something, they break something else. These are my beliefs, my opinion. You all know by now how strongly I feel about Paladins. I have fought for this class day in and day out, since i started realizing just how unbalanced tanking skills are spread between the classes. </div></div> </blockquote> They certainly seem reluctant to explain their plan in detail to deal with this, so I can understand your fears (I have them too). <blockquote> <div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Do these differences warrant any tank other than the current status quo, minus the extra DPS that made monks and bruisers special? Tanking looks the same to me, just that the extra damage that made those other tanks desirable and made up for the lack of mitigation has been taken away.                                                                                   </div> </div> </blockquote> <div><div>Well ... if SOE would let us know what changes they are making, then we could see what nerfs, if any, they have up their sleaves for Guardians.  It's funny.  SOE says that they don't want to tell us what they are doing because the changes can't be taken in a vacuum.  But since the only info flowing is rumors, most people are only getting class-specific info and therefore not getting the whole picture.  If they'd give us the whole picture, maybe things would be different, but they seem hesitant ... </div></div> <blockquote><hr></blockquote> </span><div></div>

[BlackW]

<P>/agreed</P> <P>I dont know what I will do if my DPS is severely nerfed.   Stop playing Paladin?  Quit EQ2?  I am not that interested in playing other classes on my main character.   I see no reason to significantly change our dps.   Our taunts need to be balanced with the other fighter classes.   Agro needs to be balanced across all the fighters.   Paladins are already out-damaged by most other classes.   Why nerf us further?   Again, it makes no sense.   Why take away combat rez?   If combat rez is taken away, then Paladin rez is just another fluff spell like Holy Steed.   We dont need more fluff.   This is all speculation but the effect of these purported changes is to fundamentally change our role.   That is something none of us wants.   I am quite satisfied with my current dps and tanking ability.   We could be balanced with other fighter classes but there is no need to fundamentally change the fighter classes.   Are there bored programmers at SOE sitting around with nothing better to do than sit around and write "what-if?" code.   What will happen if I change this or that?</P> <P>I have no problem with Monks, Bruisers, Berzerkers or Gaurdians.    Berzerkers tend to draw too much agro but that can easily be balanced.   I have a mantra that the EQ2 Team should put on their walls when working on the combat upgrade:</P> <P>"Balance, adjust and tweak but DO NOT REDEFINE the classes and subclasses!"</P> <P>I currently live in the south but I grew up out west.   There is a saying they have down here that the EQ2 Team team needs to make their motto:</P> <P>"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"</P> <P> </P>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coho1 wrote:<BR> <DIV> I solo alot and it already takes too long to kill low lvl green mobs. AND I don't tank unless I have to..otherwise I OT. Whats going to happen to that role? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I now pay monthly instead of multimonth.</DIV> <DIV>With Dragon Age, D&D online and others coming up Sony has to be careful.  I'm sure Sony has no desire to wreck the game and lose players anymore than you do.:smileywink::smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>For the most part I agree with this statement.   However, SOE has a pattern of making changes that just leave you in stunned, open-mouthed shock and disappointment, followed by anger, frustration and for some, cancelling subscription.    I cant figure it out, I have seen them do it in PlanetSide and EQ2, making changes that no one wanted or asked for and no one can figure out why.   The EQ2 team is made up of talented, intelligent people.   There must be some gremlin running around at SOE inserting code that leaves us all scraching our heads asking "why?". 

[Collaud]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coho1 wrote:<BR> <DIV> I solo alot and it already takes too long to kill low lvl green mobs. AND I don't tank unless I have to..otherwise I OT. Whats going to happen to that role? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I now pay monthly instead of multimonth.</DIV> <DIV>With Dragon Age, D&D online and others coming up Sony has to be careful.  I'm sure Sony has no desire to wreck the game and lose players anymore than you do.:smileywink::smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>I'm in the same position and feel the same way.  I've really enjoyed EQ2 over the past several months.  However, I'm discouraged enough by the revamp rumors and SOE statements that I've already started looking for my next game.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the revamp and re-tiering guts my paladin and harms my casual/solo playstyle, then I won't hesitate to cancel and play another game.  I won't be happy about ditching my character after months of time invested, but I learned from my experience with SOE in SWG.  And I won't let them burn me a 3rd time.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

Here is a simple solution that SoE could have done to balance this game: -- Take away Warrior buff stacking (so our HP is in line with them) -- Raise the power of our Tier 5 Taunt by 25% while keeping our power cost the same. Warriors, still get to use Tower Shields, still get there ranges slot, and still have more powerful taunts, but.... -- We can keep up with there HP (which is a major difference now) -- Our taunts aren't crap compared to theres - Zealous Preaching Master 1 (565 Hate) -  Protect Adept 3 (850+ hate) Simple solution, Zerkers will have more dps to keep aggro, and Guardians still are better all around with there hate buffs, but we are closer to them. Nope, we need to totally change everything, cause that is the SoE way......where they don't care about customer retention, they just care about money.    <div></div>

[Kutark]

<DIV>Personally i'm just going to bide my time until the changes are at least on test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly if my class gets changed to be basically a guardian that can't tank or taunt quite as well, but then has some crappy utility spells, heals and what not.  I'll be leveling my Conjuror.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played a paladin for 5.5 years in EQ1 and loved every bit of it.  It was a great class, well defined, useful in raids and groups.  I'm not sure how many if any of the rumors are true, but unless they provide me some reason to continue to play the class, i'm gonna play my conjuror.</DIV>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Coho1 wrote:<div> I solo alot and it already takes too long to kill low lvl green mobs. AND I don't tank unless I have to..otherwise I OT. Whats going to happen to that role? </div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote>Well if you are having trouble killing green mobs then I suggest you check your equipment or tactics. I can kill a low green in 15-20 seconds, I know I am well equiped but even with just average gear I can't see it being much more than 30-40 seconds each, hardly a long time. As to off tanking, I suspect this will still be a viable role with our buffs, heals and wards, just don't expect to be dealing as much damage as the scouts and mages.</span><div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kutark wrote:<BR> <DIV>Personally i'm just going to bide my time until the changes are at least on test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Frankly if my class gets changed to be basically a guardian that can't tank or taunt quite as well, but then has some crappy utility spells, heals and what not.  I'll be leveling my Conjuror.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played a paladin for 5.5 years in EQ1 and loved every bit of it.  It was a great class, well defined, useful in raids and groups.  I'm not sure how many if any of the rumors are true, but unless they provide me some reason to continue to play the class, i'm gonna play my conjuror.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If they nerf the Paladin, I will stop calling myself a Paladin instead I will be:</P> <P>I Knight who says Ni!</P> <P>Ni! Ni! Ni!</P>

[StrydierMaur]

<P>Well they shouldnt make Paladins any different than they were in eq1.</P> <P>I also hope they dont create a huge fiasco like they did in the SWG revamp...... </P>

[Troodon]

What I and assume many want is to be desirable, to be a member of a class that people actively want to have fighting alongside them, to have a role that people want and need filled, whether its in a group or on a raid. If the only development of the combat change is to complete our metamorphosis into sub par Guardian-Templers hybrids then I’m not entirely sure how we will be desirable. There have been hints that the changes are a bit more fundamental than that though, suggestions of situational advantages of the various fighters against certain mob types. But with little and often contradictory info we get offered it’s hard to feel reassured that SoE have some grand plan they're working on. Personally I feel that within the Fighter archetype I don’t see why there should be inverse relationship between tanking and dps. Tanking potential should be independent and more or less even, its utility that should be coupled to dps. I have no idea if my own views coincide with SoE’s, I know they certainly don’t with some vocal Guardians on the forums, but I just wish SoE would come forward with their vision of each class, even if they leave ironing out the specifics to NDAs and the beta server.<div></div>

[Icona]

<span><span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div><div>Why pick a paly over a guard, if the paly has less hit points, less taunts, <strong><u>SAME</u> </strong>dps, and less def buffs? REMEMBER, our job is now PURE TANKING. <font color="#ff0000">I've heard the same rumor that you guys have, that our rez is now OUT of combat</font>, our single target heal has gone down by alot, our DPS has gone down 3/4ths of what it used to be, etc...granted these are all rumors, but I've always been of the belief that wheres theres smoke, there's a fire.</div> <div> </div><div>                                                                                                                                   </div></div><hr></blockquote></span>If this rumor turns out to be true I will be very dissapointed. I take pride in being a Paladin. Even the Dwarf trainer in SQ says that we are holy warriors that will lay down our lives for our comrads (not an exact quote, but you get the idea). When things start to look bad in a fight I WANT to be the guy that tells everyone to run while I keep the bad guy occupied so they can survive. If they make our rez Out Of Combat, this is what will happen: If the healer dies to an AOE, or for any reason, everyone will tell ME to run so I can rez after the fact. Kinda puts a damper on the whole heroic holy warrior thing<span>:smileysad:</span> If SOE boxes me into a 'run away if things go bad' role, I will not be able to play my Paladin ever again. I am sure the guy's on the role play servers will hate it even more. </span><div></div>

[Rhianni]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:</P> <P> Moorguard also stated that guards will STILL have more def and be the preferred tank. More taunts, more mitigation, ETC.</P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Where exactly did Moorguard say that guardians will get more mitigation and be the preferred tank?  I highly doubt he actually said one class will be prefered over others.</DIV> <DIV>I do remember him saying that they will get more taunts but that doesnt make a tank better then others.</DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=29576#M29576" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=29576#M29576</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanking = Def and Taunts, correct? If i need a healer I'll get a templar or a warden. So..people picked Paladins as tanks or raid utility because the had:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a) Much better DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>b) More utility (heals, rezzes, buffs)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the rumors are true, which I posted just that, our rez will be out of combat, our heals will be lowered, and our DPS is gonna be craptastic..why exactly would you pick a Paladin over a guard, Rhianni?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me put it to you like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                              DPS                   DEF(Mitigation)           Taunts                  Utility</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladin                 same                     l ess                            less                      same(?)                                                              </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian              same                    more                           more                     same(?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, if you had two heavy tanks, which one do you choose based off pure tanking ability? Def buffs=mitigation, pure and simple. Everyone whos played this game knows that an extra lvl means alot when it comes to taking damage. If you read the above post, Moorguard clearly states that guards will have more taunts and more def buffs. In previous Moorgaurd posts he put the Paladin and the Guard in the SAME DPS tier....so this in effect means, according to Moor, that Guards and Palys will have the <U>SAME DPS</U>, but Guards will STILL be the better heavy tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My gripe is utility. Give Paladins MORE utility to compensate for the decrease in DPS, if not it looks bleak, specially for raiding Paladins. what will we bring to a raid? please dont tell me about multiple tanks....that theory is only good if tanks were stacking, or if there is only one guard at a raid. So we will not DPS and we will not rez...so umm...what our niche then? Whats our role?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not about to roll over and let SoE kill my Paladin. SoE clearly favors Guards above other tanks. I hope for two options....let my Paladin become a DPS tank, or let my Paladin EQUAL a Guard tank, by using his heals, wards, and taunts. Why does a guard have more taunts AND more def buffs? those should be SPLIT. Since there are TWO heavy tanks, one should an edge over other in one category, not two.</DIV>

[djhbeek]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Rhianni wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:</p> <p> Moorguard also stated that guards will STILL have more def and be the preferred tank. More taunts, more mitigation, ETC.</p> <div> <hr> </div></blockquote> <div>Where exactly did Moorguard say that guardians will get more mitigation and be the preferred tank?  I highly doubt he actually said one class will be prefered over others.</div> <div>I do remember him saying that they will get more taunts but that doesnt make a tank better then others.</div><hr></blockquote>He did in fact say that guardians would still be the preferred tanks in raids ... it's in that "What are we doing with tanks" post ... uzhiel ... the "less" taunts thing assumes that pally taunts aren't improving ... just something to thing about.  <span>:smileywink:</span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by djhbeek on <span class="date_text">08-03-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:21 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by djhbeek on <span class=date_text>08-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:21 AM</span>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote: <div> </div> <div><b>I am not about to roll over and let SoE kill my Paladin. SoE clearly favors Guards above other tanks. I hope for two options....let my Paladin become a DPS tank, or let my Paladin EQUAL a Guard tank, by using his heals, wards, and taunts</b>. </div><hr></blockquote>Or allow more free server moves to the Station Exchange servers, so I can sell my account and get some money for all the time I would have wasted to get screwed in the long run <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I am btw jk   </span><div></div>

[djhbeek]

i personally think SOE is gonna cave on the rez thing ... at least i hope they realize that even they don't know what a pally should be doing on raids ... <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>ya..we'll just have to wait and see  :smileywink:</P> <P>For some reason, call me crazy, I'm just not getting a warm and fuzzy on this Paladin "adjustment."  :smileysurprised:  Before I could justify my DPS for the lower tanking, but now I can't..since were STILL going to be lesser tanks, yet our DPS will be guardianized  :smileyindifferent:</P> <P> </P> <P>By the way, Djhbeek...what is the Capt MOMO fan club? :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>08-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:37 AM</span>

[Coho1]

<P>"Personally I feel that within the Fighter archetype I don’t see why there should be inverse relationship between tanking and dps. Tanking potential should be independent and more or less even, its utility that should be coupled to dps."</P> <P>Thats one of the things I have always been uncomfortable with coming from D&D. Usually you have more tank types in a group  to protect the wizzies, etc. If you engage 4 mobs as such they are all not gonna focus on one guy.  Wizzies still do more damage but tanks don't do just low lvl damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>As for me having trouble killing greens..no I don't but it takes too long. How many times do you have to hit a goblin with a axe??:smileyvery-happy:<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Coho1 on <span class=date_text>08-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:17 AM</span>

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>ya..we'll just have to wait and see  :smileywink:</p> <p>For some reason, call me crazy, I'm just not getting a warm and fuzzy on this Paladin "adjustment."  :smileysurprised:  Before I could justify my DPS for the lower tanking, but now I can't..since were STILL going to be lesser tanks, yet our DPS will be guardianized  :smileyindifferent:</p> <p>By the way, Djhbeek...what is the Capt MOMO fan club? :smileyvery-happy:</p> <div></div> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">08-03-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:37 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>i told you not to ask <span>:smileymad:</span> lol, well actually, we had this guy who came onto the Nek forums and posted alot of crap about training other guilds, etc.  he also tended to post things that were less than ... well ... intelligible.  we had so much fun with him, that we developed a fan club.  searching the nek forums for the following will get you all the dirty details: Might Make Right /who all coercer Momo think it all started in the infamous FiF or KS thread ... let's just say that the history of contested mobs on Nek is quite involved ... </span><div></div>

[Hawkt]

<DIV>Gamers have changed in the 8 years I've been playing MMORPGs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE has 1 chance on this revamp. In '99 if they made a change with EQ1 people would come in and scream on the boards and spend weeks of effort to make changes to get the game back to what they wanted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't see that happening now. If this revamp doesn't work, the gamers I know now will just quit playing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know if SOE understands that.</DIV>

[Vampy]

<P>I consider myself to be the Captain of the "wait and see approach". The honest truth however is that we all know it is gonna suck, will make some people leave, some will go on hiatus, some will return from hiatus to check it out, and a few will be "happy" with the changes. The problem is competition. MANY people cut their teeth on EQ1 and therefore by default tried EQ2. That was YEARS ago though and those same people want to play a good game now, not some second class experiment by a company who lacks communication skills with its consumer. The loyalty they think they have from the consumer is fairly vaporous at this point (judging soly from personal opinion, the stats on paying customers available on another website and the forums of several other popular games. The "Tone" of the average player is one of not wanting to be mucked about with and well, to be honest if you MAKE me start over by changing my class alot I MIGHT AS WELL try a new game so it will be truly fresh. There ARE new games whose timelines meet up well to a combat revamp on this game. They meet up well for the PLAYER not the company.</P> <P>If I could get anyone of authority to listen I would say this: Be wary of thinking we are all gonna accept whatever you do to us in EQ2 or that if we do not like it that we will by default return to EQ1, cause it is not gonna happen that way. Lose me now and you lose me forever. This is how I feel, how my wife feels, how my online gamer friends feel and I suspect how at least a few other paying customers feel.</P> <P>I will make you a deal EQ. I will pay for the game, the monthly fee, buy your updates and expansions, and invest my precious time in my characters and ALL you have to do is NOT make me change careers midstream because the "vision" has changed. If you mistakenly feel that you will do a combat revamp, fix whats wrong in eq2 and recapture the glory days for your company I must tell you with regret that it may just have the opposite effect. To me this makes about as much sense as a Vampire owning a wooden stake factory, but what do I know I am just a guy who sends in his check every month to play a class I HAVE PICKED.</P> <P>/peace and good luck to us all.</P>

[K'aldar]

<div></div><div></div>to the OP: MG said guard's will still be preferred tank in most RAIDS. with revamp all fighters will be group preferred, and some can also raid tank decently as well. as to the difference between guards and pallys, well combat arts and spells are being changed all around... so the difference you see now in hit points, buffs, taunts and all that, won't exist in that reality (or so we're told) as to the reason why i'd play a pally over a guard i have to say i love the heals.. i love that i don't have to 100% rely on the healers in a group or raid to keep me standing. its really in what you prefer, if you dont' like to see your health spike, then don't play a brawler, if you don't like getting hit all the time, don't play a plate tank, etc.  just my 2cp,. <div></div><p>Message Edited by K'aldar on <span class="date_text">08-03-2005</span> <span class="time_text">01:41 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by K'aldar on <span class=date_text>08-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:41 PM</span>

[Pathin Merrithay]

<P> </P> <P>Very well put together post as usual UFS. The concern, at the moment, is in fact the paladin end game, and their place on raids. I realize that this should not be SoE's only focus for our class, granted, but they have to realize that guilds and raid encounters will always utilize the best resources availible to them. It's foolishness not too. If Guardians as a class are going to be the best resource to tank a raid mob, then that class -will- be used 99% of the time. This may be a different issue if Guardians as a class were less prevelant, but simply, they aren't. I have 3 different 50 Guards in my guild which firmly establishes my role in a raid will almost never be as an MT. Why? Not because I couldn't handle it, I know that I could. I won't be chosen as the MT because I am -not- the best and most efficient resource availible. As long as Guardians provide a distinct tactical advantage they will be chosen first and foremost, giving us the best chance at a successful raid.</P> <P>So, where does that leave us? In a unique role that's part MT buffer, part Battlerezzer, mostly utility. Our buffs are, to be honest, mediocre and not exactly a draw to have a Paladin around. By taking away our battlerez, and our decent AoE damage effects, they effectively remove our place on raids. </P> <P>I'm under the impression that SoE expects people to choose a Paladin because they can, in theory, 'pull it off'. What they don't realize is that unless a class can pull it off -most effectively- in a situation where a single person in a 24 person raid is chosen for a role... They won't be chosen.</P> <DIV>We found a role despite some severe murkiness in where classes fall in the raid endgame. Please, consider very, very hard before taking that role away... At the moment, I don't see another for us to fall into.</DIV>

[Hawkt]

<DIV><A target=top href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=6974"><SPAN>Vampyyr</SPAN></A> , I'm not as sure as you that its not going to be a good thing.  For me my criteria is simple. I need to be able to still play a effective role in groups, I need to be able to solo, and I want a role where people want my class in raids.   I think they should be able to do this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I realize my experinces in EQ1 colour my EQ2 experince at time. But I don't think that is fair.  It was a long time ago.</DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

Nice..whoever the one star ninja is that is going around one starring my posts, it doesnt change the facts or message of this post or those other ones. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The funny thing is you disagree with me its fine...but I see you also went ahead and one starred posts that had nothing to do with this conversation. Oh, well, it doesnt stop me from posting. Grow up :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR>Nice..whoever the one star ninja is that is going around one starring my posts, it doesnt change the facts or message of this post or those other ones. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The funny thing is you disagree with me its fine...but I see you also went ahead and one starred posts that had nothing to do with this conversation. Oh, well, it doesnt stop me from posting. Grow up :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Probably the same person who has been one-starring mine.   What I am trying to do is to remove opinion and speculation from this discussion and focus on the screenshots and the numbers.   I just 5-starred your post uz.   Uzhiel rulz! :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Here is what I have so far of numbers and screenshots:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=13383" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=13383</A></P> <P>Your opinion in particular would be appreciated <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Together Paladins, we can defeat the 1-star ninja! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>BlackWeb wrote: <blockquote> <hr> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:Nice..whoever the one star ninja is that is going around one starring my posts, it doesnt change the facts or message of this post or those other ones. <div> </div> <div>The funny thing is you disagree with me its fine...but I see you also went ahead and one starred posts that had nothing to do with this conversation. Oh, well, it doesnt stop me from posting. Grow up :smileywink:</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Probably the same person who has been one-starring mine.   What I am trying to do is to remove opinion and speculation from this discussion and focus on the screenshots and the numbers.   I just 5-starred your post uz.   Uzhiel rulz! :smileyvery-happy:</p> <p>Here is what I have so far of numbers and screenshots:</p> <p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=13383" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=13383</a></p> <p>Your opinion in particular would be appreciated <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>Together Paladins, we can defeat the 1-star ninja! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Fact is though, until all aspects of the revamp are in, we can't compare damage before to damage after. (Heals finished, taunts complete, fighters/priests/mobs complete) Furthermore, our class should not be defined by just the amount of damage we can dish out....but rather by the combination of damage we deal compared to the damage we take. Yes a ranger might be able to spit about 250 dps, compared to say our 100dps...yet we can take X amount of hits compared to Y amount of hits the ranger can. Example: White solo con mob. 18,000 HP Hits for on average 50dps Ranger has 3k buffed HP and does 250 dps Paladin has 5k buffed HP and does 100 dps (plus can heal for 400 every 10 secs with single target heal, 1k with LoH line, and 1k with Devout Line) After 60 secs: White Con Mob does 3k of damage to Ranger White Con Mob does 3k of damage to Paladin Ranger does 15k of damage to the Mob Paladin does 6k of damage to the mob Sounds pretty crappy doesn't it. Well the Ranger has 0 HP left, and the mob has 3000HP left The Paladin has 2k left (without healing) and the mob has 12k left Throw in 3 heals over the next 60 secs (single target) The Ranger is still dead The Paladin has 200 HP left White Con Mob has 6k HP left LoH + devout = approx 2.5 heal + Single Target Twice = 3.3k HP After 60 more seconds: White Mob = Dead Paladin = 300hp left ^^^ Now the above is a bunch of crap, and would never really take place like that, but from a high level overview I think it serves it's purpose. NOTE - Please DO NOT post that these numbers are off, etc...I am just making stuff up <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, I know you can change 1 thing and then totally rework the numbers.</span><div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Fact is though, until all aspects of the revamp are in, we can't compare damage before to damage after. (Heals finished, taunts complete, fighters/priests/mobs complete)<BR><BR>Furthermore, our class should not be defined by just the amount of damage we can dish out....but rather by the combination of damage we deal compared to the damage we take.<BR><BR>Yes a ranger might be able to spit about 250 dps, compared to say our 100dps...yet we can take X amount of hits compared to Y amount of hits the ranger can.<BR><BR>Example:<BR><BR>White solo con mob.<BR><BR>18,000 HP<BR>Hits for on average 50dps<BR><BR>Ranger has 3k buffed HP and does 250 dps<BR>Paladin has 5k buffed HP and does 100 dps (plus can heal for 400 every 10 secs with single target heal, 1k with LoH line, and 1k with Devout Line)<BR><BR>After 60 secs:<BR><BR>White Con Mob does 3k of damage to Ranger<BR>White Con Mob does 3k of damage to Paladin<BR><BR>Ranger does 15k of damage to the Mob<BR>Paladin does 6k of damage to the mob<BR><BR>Sounds pretty crappy doesn't it.<BR><BR>Well the Ranger has 0 HP left, and the mob has 3000HP left<BR>The Paladin has 2k left (without healing) and the mob has 12k left<BR><BR>Throw in 3 heals over the next 60 secs (single target)<BR><BR>The Ranger is still dead<BR>The Paladin has 200 HP left<BR><BR>White Con Mob has 6k HP left<BR><BR>LoH + devout = approx 2.5 heal + Single Target Twice = 3.3k HP<BR><BR>After 60 more seconds:<BR><BR>White Mob = Dead<BR>Paladin = 300hp left<BR><BR>^^^<BR><BR>Now the above is a bunch of crap, and would never really take place like that, but from a high level overview I think it serves it's purpose.<BR><BR>NOTE - Please DO NOT post that these numbers are off, etc...I am just making stuff up <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, I know you can change 1 thing and then totally rework the numbers.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I double and triple checked everything so that it matches the screenshots and the descriptions of the skills.  I triple checked the combat screenshots to make sure the number displayed in orange matches the damage of the spell or CA being used.   I rounded up and down where appropriate, checked all the units to make sure they work out properly.   The numbers I presented are accurate though incomplete.   I do not have time to cover all of the spells and CAs so I covered what I believe to be the most important  ones.   The only speculation or estimation takes place in the character progression section and I clearly state that it is a rough estimate.<BR></P>