SOE Games - A Pattern of Change

[BlackW]

<DIV>EQ2 is my second SOE game, PlanetSide was my first.   I have noted a pattern in how SOE devs go about changing their games.   They watch how we play their games, they go through reams and reams of data, they look at these forums, they have meetings and decide on what if any changes need to be made in their games.   That explains some of the changes they make, others are baffling and inexplicable.   They recently made some changes in PlanetSide that left me scratching my head, asking why?   What was the compelling reason for these changes?   They seem to be doing the same thing in EQ2.   Many changes in EQ2 have been welcome but others have made no sense at all.   There is a truism in MMO gaming:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Everyone wants change.</DIV> <DIV>2.  Nobody likes change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are changes being talked about which make no sense.   They were not asked for by anyone in these forums, they will make a lot of EQ2 players unhappy and probably cost SOE subscribers.   So why make changes that fundamentally change the way certain classes function, especially in groups and RAIDs?   I dont want to get bogged down in idle speculation here about changes currently in beta and covered by an NDA.   I just have a message for the EQ2 team; before you make changes that fundamentally change the way our class (or any other class for that matter) functions, and in particular significantly weaken it, stop, take a deep breath, push yourself away from the keyboard and think about what you are doing and the effect it will have on us, your most loyal and fanatical subscribers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a guildmaster, if I were to suddenly impose a lot of new rules on my guild that fundamentally changed the way they interact with one another, it is likely that half or more of them would quit and frankly I would not blame them.   I am not going to do it, even though I may have some ideas on better ways we can do things.    If the changes I would like to make, would disrupt our little community to the point where community members would wish to leave, I will not make them.   I just will not go there, no matter how much merit those changes might have on paper.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The EQ2 Team made decisions about how you were going to design the classes, how they would function and interact with others.   You may wish to make major changes in our classes now but for some changes it is too late.   When we make decisions in game, they are final.   I think it would be good for you to impose this upon yourselves, there are some decisions you previously made that you should learn to live with.   Going back, constantly rehashing, rethinking is good to a point, then it becomes couterproductive.   EQ2 Team, please, before you make major changes in the way our class or any other class functions solo or in comination with others, stop, sloooow way down and think about what you are doing.   I know you do consider changes carefully before making them but sometimes there seems to be a disconnect between us, your loyal subscribers and the changes you are making.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rebalancing, tweaking, adjusting, I can understand.   But fundamentally changing the way classes function, particularly in combination with others, I cannot understand.   We have been playing this game for almost a year, EQ2 is a roleplaying game, many of us have learned our role well, fundamentally changing that role now casts serious doubt upon whether all of us will be here a year from now.</DIV>

[RSta]

Good post <div></div>

[Sulas]

<span><blockquote><hr>RStahl wrote:Good post <div></div><hr></blockquote> I'll second that!</span><div></div>

[RiotActer]

BW: I agree with what you say, but have to disagree with your timing.  We don't even know what these changes are...  Honestly, I can't wait to see what they are.  I'm already level 50, so I welcome the changes.  I welcome the new gaming experience.  No matter if the changes are good or bad, I'm looking forward to relearning how I play my level 50 toon.  If the changes are bad and I don't enjoy it, then yes I will leave.  No big thing really.  If the game isn't fun, then why waste time playing it? I had some issues with "just leaving" durning my first MMO.  I felt I was letting the communtiy down, my guild, my friends...  Welp, plan fact, if it ain't fun, cancel.  Why waste your time?  We can argue about how bad the changes "were / are", but we can't argue about how bad the changes are "going to be".  Why?  Because YOU and I haven't experienced them yet.  It is SOE's choice how they change things.  You've done a great job on these boards speaking your mind.  That is the best you can do.  I'm sure people will leave EQ2 if they feel the changes are bad...  On the flip side, people will still open new accounts and enjoy the game.  If you do not like the changes and aren't have fun AFTER the changes, there is only one thing to do... SOE is a business 1st and formost.  Their top people have to sell these changes as something that will bring in new customers vs. keeping current customers.  They don't do them to tick people off.  They do them to "hopefully" generate more money.  So while I agree they should take some time and think things through (which they have or we'd see them live), I believe that step has already been done.  All we can do now is wait...  and try not to speculate on things / changes we know nothing about! <div></div>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RiotActer wrote:<BR>BW:<BR><BR>SOE is a business 1st and formost.  Their top people have to sell these changes as something that will bring in new customers vs. keeping current customers.  They don't do them to tick people off.  They do them to "hopefully" generate more money.  So while I agree they should take some time and think things through (which they have or we'd see them live), I believe that step has already been done.  All we can do now is wait...  and try not to speculate on things / changes we know nothing about!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Indeed and one would think they would want to keep their subscribers happy.<BR>

[eyes007]

BlackWeb brings up a compelling but almost futile argument to this whole business. It also relates to changes past, present and future. I'm guessing that BW's point is this, not just on what specific changes are being made atm. The only problem is, we only have the Fan Faire Summits or E3 or various shows to point these out, which is futile because we can't itemize every little thing, there just isn't enough time in the day! They will occasionally look at the complaints, maybe a forum here and there but there is no community network that is consulted other than test server, which isn't a big enough group to make a difference. Maybe I'm wrong here but where are the days when a quick five minute survey prior to logging in was deemed a good gauge for players existing or new? I think we have had one survey and that was it...

[Kharadr]

You can't say that players haven't been asking for the impending changes. A big part of the changes is the melee system, and lots of players have been complaining since the dawn of EQ2 that tanks are overpowered compared to, say, scouts. Normal solo or group play is either far too easy or far too hard; nothing in between. The devs didn't conjure this stuff out of thin air. You may or may not agree with what they're going to do, but saying nobody asked for them is like ignoring half the posts on these forums. I am a paladin btw and I can't wait to see the changes. <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>I feel like SoE kicked me in the gut. Yes, they "improved" Paladins tanking..but they put us in the same tier as guards..in <STRONG><U>direct</U></STRONG>  competition, but with lesser skills. Sigh.</P> <P>I'm so frustrated with SoE. EQ II is such a great game, nice graphics, nice music, pretty decent game play and relatively few bugs....but for the life I can't figure out WHY I would play if my class is so "revamped" that I have to relearn how to use it. Its not that I don't like change, it's that I dont like MAJOR changes 10 months into the life of a game I played and enjoyed so much.</P> <P>Everyone knows the first time is always better. When we started playing this game it was new, fresh, and exciting. Almost a year later, its not as satisfying. Bugs, nerfs, etc have jaded many of us, and this new total revamp is a MAJOR hurdle. One that, frankly, many people will just not want to cross, specially if they screw it up.</P> <P>With all these MMORPG's coming out or already on the market, the onus is on SOE to convince us that this game is the game to play. </P> <P>How SoE took players suggestions about 1 or 2 skills per character, and turned it into a major game revamp still boggles the mind.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>08-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:59 AM</span>

[Dirtgirl]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff9933 size=3>Hey Uzhiel. I have to agree with your concerns with the upcoming revamp. I regularly monitor test as well as the forums for little glimpses of what we are in store for. And I think you Pallies seem to have the most to worry about. As a ranger, I'm not all that worried, as i already feel like a [Removed for Content]. Few top end groups are ever looking for a ranger's abilities (not to mention we are about a dime a dozen). But I digress.......</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933 size=3>I have a few really good Pally friends that duo with me regularly and I can feel your pain thru them. I sure hope the upcoming changes are not as drastic as many of us have been led to believe.....I too enjoy this game, and would hate to see any of my mates driven away from it. But, then again, It might be a refreshing break for us all to reroll and start fresh from the island....Maybe I'll play something that end-game groups are actually in need of.....</FONT></DIV>

[Aaldarr]

Just wait till Vanguard - Saga of Heros hits the market.  Wanta see SoE make some "positive" changes.  I'll give them 30 days as their player base dries up.

[Amberionn]

Am I the only one that remembers "The Vision"?  *shudder*

[Kutark]

<DIV>[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] no, i remember the "vision" quite well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "vision" is what caused my paladin to have a 40% XP cut just for being a hybrid.</DIV>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> eyes007 wrote:<BR>BlackWeb brings up a compelling but almost futile argument to this whole business. It also relates to changes past, present and future. I'm guessing that BW's point is this, not just on what specific changes are being made atm. The only problem is, we only have the Fan Faire Summits or E3 or various shows to point these out, which is futile because we can't itemize every little thing, there just isn't enough time in the day! They will occasionally look at the complaints, maybe a forum here and there but there is no community network that is consulted other than test server, which isn't a big enough group to make a difference. Maybe I'm wrong here but where are the days when a quick five minute survey prior to logging in was deemed a good gauge for players existing or new? I think we have had one survey and that was it... <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have to be careful what I say in this forum.  We cant talk about the specifics of the combat upgrade due to the fact that it is in Beta and covered by an NDA.   I am very concerned that the combat upgrade will have a negative effect on the Paladin, perhaps a severe one.    I have done what I could to represent all of you.  I do not think the message is getting through.  Perhaps you should find someone who can better represent you.

[eyes007]

Black, no need for that friend, out of all of us, you show the willingness to press our concerns to SoE. The rest of us do not have the time or the ::ahem:: diplomacy to do that effectively. I think you are right in every aspect, the problem is, SoE asked for a "representative" as such and is really ignoring all feedback until Go-Live. Now, maybe we are speculating too much on the Combat changes as again the NDA doesn't allow us too, but theres no reason to discuss past, present or future changes and how SoE addresses them or listens to the community in general. Don't give up Black, you are doing a great job, I don't think we as the Paladin Community are supporting your efforts too, and that perpetuates the struggle to be heard by Sony.

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>I dont always agree with blackweb, but whoever is one starring his posts, please stop. It serves no purpose. The guy has been nothing but helpful, has not insulted anyone, has not been rude or capricious. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cannot believe that we can't have a conversation among paladins, without resorting to one stars. Whoever is the ninja, at least have the decency to post WHY you disagree with black and WHY you one star his posts. Not that its that big of deal, really, but I think of the paladin community as a little family and if we disagree then do so by posting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean, I see his posts one-starred as soon as he posts them. Jeez. If you disagree with him that bad, let us know why. Blackweb has had some very constructive and helpful posts, so let you what you have to offer, Mr. Ninja One Star.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blackweb, it looks like u [Removed for Content] someone off something fierce! :smileywink:</DIV>

[eyes007]

<P>Good God mate! You haven't slept with a brother Paladin's girlfriend have you!!! Oh that's right, our girlfriend is justice, honor and respect....................:smileysurprised::smile ysad:Someone tell me why I chose a Paladin again?</P> <P>Alas it wasn't me the One Star Ninja, for that I would have to be capable of knowing how to do the Star sytem <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I'm a blonde paladin btw.....</P>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>I dont always agree with blackweb, but whoever is one starring his posts, please stop. It serves no purpose. The guy has been nothing but helpful, has not insulted anyone, has not been rude or capricious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cannot believe that we can't have a conversation among paladins, without resorting to one stars. Whoever is the ninja, at least have the decency to post WHY you disagree with black and WHY you one star his posts. Not that its that big of deal, really, but I think of the paladin community as a little family and if we disagree then do so by posting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean, I see his posts one-starred as soon as he posts them. Jeez. If you disagree with him that bad, let us know why. Blackweb has had some very constructive and helpful posts, so let you what you have to offer, Mr. Ninja One Star.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blackweb, it looks like u [Removed for Content] someone off something fierce! :smileywink:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Indeed.  Seems I have a forum stalker.  I have a pretty good idea who it is though I cant say.   It is someone who LIVES on these forums.  Clearly, this individual wishes to silence me.   I am not here to stroke his or anyone at a certain MMORPGs game developers egos.   I am tryng to represent our class and keep us from being beaten like a red-headed stepchild with a big NERF stick!</DIV><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:00 AM</span>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kharadrim wrote:<BR>You can't say that players haven't been asking for the impending changes. A big part of the changes is the melee system, and lots of players have been complaining since the dawn of EQ2 that tanks are overpowered compared to, say, scouts. Normal solo or group play is either far too easy or far too hard; nothing in between. The devs didn't conjure this stuff out of thin air. You may or may not agree with what they're going to do, but saying nobody asked for them is like ignoring half the posts on these forums.<BR><BR>I am a paladin btw and I can't wait to see the changes.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I know a lot of high level Paladins.  None of them have been asking for most of these changes.   Overpowered compared to scouts?  In what respect?   What is the maximum melee damage for Ranger vs a Paladin?   The maximum melee damage for my lvl 46 High Elf Paladin is about 600 - 650 and he is very twinked.  What is the max damage for any scout of the same level?   I dont know but it has to be at least double, maybe much more.   What is the avoidance for a scout vs a Paladin?   My max melee hit is about 600, magic hit is about 500.   That is nothing compared to mages, scouts, monks, berzerkers.   The only other classes that would be comparable or less would be gaurdian or priest.  How are Paladins overpowered compared to ANY othe class?   We need some balancing with the other heavy armor fighters and that is all.   What do you want to turn us into?  Templar-gaurdians?   If I wanted to be a priest, I would play templar, pure tank I would play gaurdian.   Read my guide, it describes what paladins are supposed to be at the beginning of the guide.   If you want to balance Paladins properly here are the roles that each heavy armor fighter should play:</P> <P>Berzerker - heavy armor dps, high damage, high dps, adequate taunts.  Moderate mitigation, moderate avoidance and hit points.   A Berzerker SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PULL AGRO FROM A PALADIN WHENEVER HE WANTS TO.</P> <P>Gaurdian - pure tank, highest mitigation and hit points, best taunts, lowest damage and avoidance.</P> <P>Paladin - jack of all trades, master of none.  Moderate damage, middle of the road taunts, hit points and mitigation.   Cant heal as well as a priest, cant spellcast as well as a mage, cant melee as well as a berzerker or monk.   However, the sum is greater than the parts.   Starting out, perhaps the weakest of the 4 figheters.   Later on if properly configured and equipped, as strong as any other fighter.  </P> <P>Monk - highest damage and and avoidance, lowest hit points and mitigation, worst taunts.</P> <P>Try to turn the Paladin into a priest and you will end up with a very weak one that no one will want to use as their main healer.  Try to turn the Paladin into a gaurdian and no one will want to use him as MT unless no gaurdian is available.   The Paladin should not have the magic damage of a mage or melee damage of a berzerker and most definitely should not have the massive damage or avoidance of a monk.   For the Paladin, the sum should be greater than the parts.   He is fairly close to that now.  He (or she) does not need to be fundamentally changed, only tweaked and balanced with the other fighters.</P><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:29 AM</span>

[Kharadr]

These combat changes are not about balancing paladins against other tanks. They are about balancing tanks against other archetypes. I think paladins are fine compared to other tanks. I also think that tanks in general are too powerful compared to, say, scouts. And you can't possibly say that scouts haven't been asking for changes. <div></div>

[BlackW]

Yay!  I got another 1-star! :smileyvery-happy:

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kharadrim wrote:<b>These combat changes are not about balancing paladins against other tanks</b>. They are about balancing tanks against other archetypes. I think paladins are fine compared to other tanks. I also think that tanks in general are too powerful compared to, say, scouts. And you can't possibly say that scouts haven't been asking for changes. <div></div><hr></blockquote>i think that was the original purpose, though there was talk of balancing priests against priests right from the start.  the combat changes as we currently see them, seem to be an enormous undertaking to balance absolutely everythring against absolutely anything.</span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR> <DIV>Indeed.  Seems I have a forum stalker.  I have a pretty good idea who it is though I cant say.   It is someone who LIVES on these forums.  Clearly, this individual wishes to silence me.   I am not here to stroke his or anyone at a certain MMORPGs game developers egos.   I am tryng to represent our class and keep us from being beaten like a red-headed stepchild with a big NERF stick!</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would hope that anyone wouldn't one star someone just because they don't agree with what that person says, that said, I hardly ever use the rating system, in fact I have it turned off.</P> <P>So hopefully the person who lives on these forums can get over it and quit one starring your posts <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><IMG src="http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9187/ratings4mi.jpg"><BR></P> <DIV>Just thought I'd show you what I meant.  Besides I'm sure a lot of people assume I one star them and I wanted to show that I in fact, have only turned off the rating system 92 times since I registered, and each of those times has been to 5 star someone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heh.</DIV>

[eyes007]

Gage please tell me that's not your home IP address <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />