Paladin End-Game

[BlackW]

<DIV> <DIV>Something that the EQ2 team is very concerned with is the end-game.   The end-game concerns gameplay at the highest levels, right now that is lvl 50 for adventurers and artisans.  I am still rather new to the Paladin end-game but there are many of you who are very familiar about the Paladin end-game.   Please add your thoughts about the end-game for Paladins to this thread.   I am considering adding an end-game section to my Crusader/Paladin Guide.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some suggestions for what we can discuss in this thread:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  What are the best lvl 49/50 Quests?</DIV> <DIV>2.  What are your favorite RAID zones and RAID mobs?  How can RAIDs be improved.</DIV> <DIV>3.  What are the best uber items?</DIV> <DIV>4.  Suggestions for RAIDing.   How to get a RAID going, what kind of characters you look for.   What are the responsibilities of the MT, the MA and the res bot?   What are the best roles for Paladins in a RAID?   RAIDing dos and donts.</DIV> <DIV>5.  How can the end-game be made more interesting for Paladins?   If you are bored with the game at lvl 50, suggest ways to make it more interesting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please make your thoughts specific to Paladins and how Paladins can best work with other character classes in the end game.   Your thoughts on the Paladin end-game would be greatly appreciated and will be included in my guide.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>07-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[djhbeek]

1. To Speak as a Dragon/Fire and Ice/Deception (of course)     GEBs were nice pre-nerf, now I don't know if they are worth the effort. 2. Make adds spawn at somewhat random boss health percentages.  knowing that you always get adds from X mob at Y percent eliminates some of the challenge. 4. this may be obvious and it may not:  don't argue about tactics during a fight.  do what your told and you'll have plenty of time to discuss it after the wipe.  i've seen more wipes (by far) from ppl not doing what they are told _immediately_ than from the raid leader telling someone to do something they shouldn't. 5. alot of these have already been discussed in detail:     make pallies useful members of the mt group (ie. better buffs).     allow pallies to peal mobs of guardian easier.     make loot more class specific.     get rid of death touch from mobs.  whoops you got hit for 15k and there's nothing you did wrong is bs ... <div></div>

[SanJ]

<DIV>The key to a Paladin end-game fits the same lock as other professions end-game.  When players start feeling like there's nothing to do and no way to contribute, they start seeking other forms of entertainment (moving along to the next MMORPG).  I have already noted a good number of players reaching 50 and leaving the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ways to compensate:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. A great deal of players enjoy MMORPGs as long as they have a grind (something to do).  They may complain about the grind, but they will inevitably hang with the game through the last combat or crafting grind as it is a GOAL to accomplish.  When XP runs out and a player reaches a cap where they may no longer advance, they get bored over time--some days or weeks, others months, but eventually they leave.  One (probably large) audience base in the game is all about grinding to the highest level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I honestly believe SOE should have set the player level cap to 60 if not 70 in EQ2.  Many players would still be grinding away towards the new, so-called "end game."   Likewise, they would still probably see a reason to log in each day--to cap their level.  I'm hoping the expansion pack is more like old school D&D where each new level of advancement is double the XP requirement of the previous level.  If it's not, many will reach the new 60 within a time frame shorter then many expect <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  If you group up and kill yellow and orange ^^ mobs for a better part of the day now, you can level in a day or two most of the time until vitality is depleted and that is in tier 5.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There will always be players in the base that grind end-game faster then the rest.  You can't really stop that and keep leveling fun for others.  However, when you have the number of 50's this game has and the high number of 50's that have been around for a LONG time, the cap should have already been raised.  We still have two more months for the expansion pack.  I still love the game and play a lot, but not like I did pre-50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. The next big obstacle to overcome is UBER (best-of-the-best) gear.  Once a player has all the best armor (say a full set of ebon or a full suit of fabled), has the best weapons, the best jewelery, etc.  They feel no sense of accomplishment continuing to do quests or raids.  Why should they?  They already have all the best.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Making more robust loot tables with more so-called end game loot with similar to varying stats will go a long way to not having a single BEST item in the game, but lend towards a tough decision of picking the right sword as an example for your game play based on there being 30 or so swords that all shine brightly (and often look different).  Too many MMORPGs have 1 best armor item, 1 best weapon, 1 best utility, etc. and when the player attains them all they are left with the same feeling of what's left to do.  I think making fabled items very different and giving them different looks (unique after all they are fabled) would go a long way towards making players feel more unique.  Don't have every Paladin in the game seeking the Royal Great Flail two handed crusher as an example, but one of the many similar but varying stated two handed crushers!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. The next obstacle is boring raids.  Once a guild figures out a raid mob, that mob is no longer a challenge.  The mob gets added to the daily/weekly farming schedule to go get end-game loot--and sadly enough the loot often times does suck from the epic x 4's.  I read stories about raiding guilds taking down Vox with 7 players and others having scout or mage professions trying to main tank to make it more interesting as they are bored to tears from defeating that encounter 50+, 100+, ?+ times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MOB development should be focused around creating multiple scenerios/setups for the SAME raid mob.  It would be interesting to see a new scenerio picked for each raid mob each time a guild enters the zone.  The tactics the mob employs this trip would be picked as an example randomly from a table of 20-40 different things that mob might do.  The point I'm trying to make is better mob AI and more mob AI options.  Stop the farming by giving them lots of strategies that make them less likely to be pegged as a 100% doable mob every time with the same tactic and give them noteworthy loot to match!  Don't just throw levels at the mob with some new uber resists or attack that makes it 10x harder on players just now engaging the mob for the first time in little to no fabled gear!  Simply throwing levels at the mob and one new KABOOM is only going to keep heavy raiding guilds in the game of taking down said mobs.  Eventually, they'll take it down again and be bored just like before!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Camps!  I should probably rank this as number 1 as I can personally vouch for a half dozen players that scream out weekly in agony (and at least once while camping Agony <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> "AHHHHHhhhhhhh I quit this stupid game and I'm never coming back because I've been camping this mob for a week three or four hours each time!"  A lot of content and a lot of advancement from 45-50 is based around a long, boring and tedious camp.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If timesinks are required for whatever reason, add more mobs to kill in a quest, more places to visit, more tasks to complete, perhaps something you have to craft like in heritage, etc., but do away with the 2+ hour camps.  I have honestly found that most players can deal with a two hour camp, but once it goes on for 4 or more hours and spans several days, the reward just doesn't outweigh the pain.  Camping mobs in an instanced zone is just plain bad and I see no use in any situation for such setups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. Guilds/Writs - create some type of end-game writ system where a 50 can do special things that require their skills to accomplish to gain status for a guild.  Make the status earned higher when two 50's group together in the guild--perhaps writs that a duo only that push the group makeup.  Make these writs the highest contributing writs a guild can receive as they must be completed only by 50's and only in small groups working hard to maybe harvest things, craft things, kill things, etc. all on the same writ!  CHALLENGE!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example:  (takes 2 level 50's to take down a certain kind of mob and skin them out for hides.  next, the hides are traded to a guild crafter, perhaps a provisioner that has to cure them out for the meat and separate the hides to pass along to the guild tailor who will make a new fur trimmed tunic for a city proper royal that is visiting the Queen.  Likewise, the meat might be used for the meal during the visit.  The quest might be worth considerable advancement to the guild and some decent personal status should every part be completed by X amount of time.  Again only 50's could play this particular game at this level to keep them coming back and contributing.)   I couldn't imagine everyone enjoying the same grind of killing pioneers and double dinging quest credit, then ice wolves, etc. over and over and over and over again being of much fun in the long run or post-patch killing sootfoots <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a very positive note, I think the Splitpaw setup for scalable dungeons to match scalable player levels is wonderful!  SOE is moving in the right track with this type of development and I offer my kudos!  The number of quests you may complete in this game is nothing short of amazing compared to other MMORPGs I've played--continue on the strong line of adding even more, but perhaps enforce several that must be completed as players level beyond the norm.  I suspect the player base that completes even 40% of the game quests is a very low number and that's a lot of wasted SOE content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well now that I've written another mini-novel, I'll sign off for now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,<BR>Kalen<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Oakbr]

Sanjun, dude, you nailed it.  Well written and well done.  Every SOE developer/programmer/othergameguru should be required to read your post, re-read it, write it out by hand 1000 times,  commit it to memory, and have it tattoo'd on themselves for daily recitation in a ritualized setting.  I'd award ya 1 Jillion stars if I could...but 5 will have to do.

[Moonreft]

Sanjun rocks hes been super helpfull in the pally fourms and very active, I tend to be short and to the point <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[yzyh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SanJun wrote:<BR> <DIV>I honestly believe SOE should have set the player level cap to 60 if not 70 in EQ2.  Many players would still be grinding away towards the new, so-called "end game."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thats why maked me quite EQ1.  If your a geek with no life that cna play 40jours or + a weel (wich is far to represent the majority of EQ2 players)  its not that bad. But myself when my bard were lvl 54 in EQ1 they released OoW so lvl 70cap. I went up to lvl 57 then I quited EQ. I had already spent over 6month on my bard and I couldn,t handle to spend another 4 or 5mounth just to reach lvl 70.</P> <P> </P> <P>LvL50 in EQ1 is more then enough with how long it take to be lvl 50 in EQ2 if they would implent their AA system. Grinding lvls only become redondent after a few hundreds hours. EQ1 was playable for new playrs when the cap was at lvl 60. for a real newby it was about 6mounth to a years or mroe to each lvl 60 then starting the AA.</P> <P> </P> <P>But with OoW if you weren't in the 60's yet. It was not a good thing to get any AA b4 you would be lvl 70. Well for a ranger it was a good thing to get the bow AA in the 60's if you were in a raiding guild. But it was almost impossible to be in a raiding guild if you were under lvl 65.</P> <P>IMO if a game take me 6mounth to reach end lvl then starting the AA [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and the raiding. The game is great. EQ1 with lvl 70cap is just junk ATM.<BR></P>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakbrow wrote:<BR>Sanjun, dude, you nailed it.  Well written and well done.  Every SOE developer/programmer/othergameguru should be required to read your post, re-read it, write it out by hand 1000 times,  commit it to memory, and have it tattoo'd on themselves for daily recitation in a ritualized setting.  I'd award ya 1 Jillion stars if I could...but 5 will have to do.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/agreed</P> <P>I actually 5-starred your post Oakbrow.  </P><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>07-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:32 AM</span>

[BlackW]

The ony problem I have with your post SanJun is that it is not really something I can put in my guide.   It is definitely something I can forward to the devs but I need practical advice for up and coming tier5 Paladins.   I am still new at the end game myself so I cannot supply accurate up-to-date information for them on my own. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem I am having right now myself is I am stuck on the Screaming Mace HQ.   We did a 5 hour camp ini Cazic Thule and the named we needed NEVER spawned.   We finally all got tired and logged off.  I am having trouble getting my tier5 hunting party to go back to CT with me.   They are just fed up with the endless camping.   The spawn timers for named mobs for important quests, especially heritage quests should be limited to 3 hours.</DIV><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>07-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:14 AM</span>

[djhbeek]

one tip:  if you are camping the torturor and you are in the right room.  if it's empty, but you hear lizards hissing, that means the spawn is borked.  pull a mob or 2 into the room and run around in circles buffing and casting out of encounter AEs and you might fix it.  if not, come back another day.  have not checked if that spawn is still as bad as it was ... <div></div>

[GPA_Coyote]

<P>You'll personally make sure?</P> <P>Forgive me for asking Blackweb..but..are you affliated with SOE? Is your guide sony sponsored or is it a self-imposed project?</P> <P>How can you personally ensure anything?</P>

[djhbeek]

<div></div>^^^ if you are confused by this, the offending comment he has been referring to has been editted out.  blackweb gets points for editting rather than arguing.<span> :smileyhappy: edit: doh... there were more one comment in diff posts, and i got all confused and such ... being a low-int race is not easy <span>:smileysad:</span> </span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by djhbeek on <span class=date_text>07-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:09 PM</span>

[GPA_Coyote]

<P>Thanks for answering for Blackweb.</P> <P>No. I'm not confused, and I didn't see the Pre-edited comment. I'm just curious. I'm not being rude in anyway. I'm simply asking a question...</P>

[djhbeek]

i edited my post.  hopefully i get points ... <div></div>

[GPA_Coyote]

<P>No worries <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I'm just curious about the guide as I run a Pally, and the "make sure they read it" part kinda threw me. </P> <P>Do we have a SOE employee in plain clothes here? Wooohooo?</P>

[Tur]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SanJun wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. The next big obstacle to overcome is UBER (best-of-the-best) gear.  Once a player has all the best armor (say a full set of ebon or a full suit of fabled), has the best weapons, the best jewelery, etc.  They feel no sense of accomplishment continuing to do quests or raids.  Why should they?  They already have all the best.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is a big one for me and not just for the reasons you mentioned. The end-game comes long before L50 if the  "must-have" gear has been parsed to the last stat. If you know that to be considered viable on a raid you must conform to the accepted cookie-cutter version of your class, then the whole game turns into one long <DIV>pre-determined set of camps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for posting this, SanJun. You speak for me in most of what you write.</DIV>

[Didi]

<P>Anybody can 'personally make sure' by forwarding a link to the devs via PM.  Whether they read it is another question.  :smileywink:  A lot of forums do have one summary thread of bugs, problems, information, whatever, stickied at the top because someone took the time to put it together and then PM'd a dev to sticky it - like the two stickied threads this forum already has.  Alternatively, I'm selling tin foil hats for only 5p each, PM me for delivery details!  :smileyhappy:</P>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Didi wrote:<BR> <P>Anybody can 'personally make sure' by forwarding a link to the devs via PM.  Whether they read it is another question.  :smileywink:  A lot of forums do have one summary thread of bugs, problems, information, whatever, stickied at the top because someone took the time to put it together and then PM'd a dev to sticky it - like the two stickied threads this forum already has.  Alternatively, I'm selling tin foil hats for only 5p each, PM me for delivery details!  :smileyhappy:</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I still need Paladin End-Game material for my guide :smileysurprised: