Redemption - How's and why's (MOD's PLEASE STICKY)

[Talbot]

<DIV> <DIV>A paladin is a low hate agressor.  We gain a MAJORITY of our hate bye lowering our groups hate.  This is done with 2 spells.  Redemption and our group buff Call to glory or if you take the final training spec ,which I highly suggest, Theron's call.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We will break it down.</DIV> <DIV>Redemption at adept 3 Transfers 35% of the hate a single target generates as long as it is active.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group buff - standard spell only transfers 5% of your groups hate the training spec transfers 10%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scenario 1</DIV> <DIV>You are placed in group with 4 healers and a bard and you have Benediction running at adept 3 which means you generate 2% more hate than normal</DIV> <DIV>You generate 100 points of agro FROM Swinging sword once</DIV> <DIV>Healer 1 generates 100 points of agro FROM Swinging mace once</DIV> <DIV>Healer 2 generates 100 points of agro FROM Swinging mace once</DIV> <DIV>Healer 3 generates 100 points of agro FROM Swinging mace once</DIV> <DIV>Healer 4 generates 100 points of agro FROM Swinging mace once</DIV> <DIV>Bard generates 200 points of agro from buffs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You use nothing but your group buff (training spec version - 10%) the following occurs </DIV> <DIV>Healer 1 hate is 90 points</DIV> <DIV>Healer 2 hate is 90 points</DIV> <DIV>Healer 3 hate is 90 points</DIV> <DIV>Healer 4 hate is 90 points</DIV> <DIV>Bard hate is 180</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So your effective hates ends up being:</DIV> <DIV>10% group buff - ((10+10+10+10+20)+100).02=163.2</DIV> <DIV>5%  group buff - ((5+5+5+5+10)+100).02=132.6</DIV> <DIV>Since the bard beats you he pulls agro.  You can either suppliment this defency with damage or use redemption</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scenario 2- Same as above but you place redemption on the bard</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Healer 1 hate is 90 points</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Healer 2 hate is 90 points</DIV> <DIV>Healer 3 hate is 90 points</DIV> <DIV>Healer 4 hate is 90 points</DIV> <DIV>Bard hate is 110</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10% group buff - So your effective hate is (10+10+10+10+90)+100+4.6=234.6</DIV> <DIV>5% group buff - (5+5+5+5+80)+100+4=204</DIV> <DIV>Your hate no beats the bard so you are able to maintain agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it has been beaten with a dead horse, someone please sticky this [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] thread so we don't have to go over it on a daily basis.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, if you find a jasper or palladium, hand down you should adept 3 redemption over ANYTHING else.  Every other skill you get in T3 level range is upgraded EXCEPT Redemption.  Redemption currently has no upgrade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Editing for the nitpickers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Talbot on <SPAN class=date_text>12-22-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:25 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Talbot on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:55 AM</span>

[Darki]

I'm curious where you're getting your numbers, how do you know a bard generates 200 threat from buffs?  A T5 taunt will generate ~500 threat. I don't disagree with you, Redemption is a great tool for transfering aggro, but you still have to taunt... <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Talbot wrote:<div> <div>A paladin is a low hate agressor.  We gain all of our hate bye lowering our groups hate.  THis is done with 2 spells.  Redemption and our group buff Call to glory or if you take the final training spec ,which I highly suggest, Theron's call.  </div> <div> </div> <div>We will break it down.</div> <div>Redemption at adept 3 Transfers 35% of the hate a single target generates as long as it is active.</div> <div> </div> <div>Group buff - standard spell only transfers 5% of your groups hate the training spec transfers 10%</div> <div> </div> <div>Scenario 1</div> <div>You are placed in group with 4 healers and a bard and you have Benediction running at adept 3 which means you generate 2% more hate than normal</div> <div>You generate 100 points of agro</div> <div>Healer 1 generates 100 points of agro</div> <div>Healer 2 generates 100 points of agro</div> <div>Healer 3 generates 100 points of agro</div> <div>Healer 4 generates 100 points of agro</div> <div>Bard generates 200 points of agro from buffs</div> <div> </div> <div>You use nothing but your group buff (training spec version - 10%) the following occurs </div> <div>Healer 1 hate is 90 points</div> <div>Healer 2 hate is 90 points</div> <div>Healer 3 hate is 90 points</div> <div>Healer 4 hate is 90 points</div> <div>Bard hate is 180</div> <div> </div> <div>So your effective hates ends up being:</div> <div>10% group buff - ((10+10+10+10+20)+100).02=163.2</div> <div>5%  group buff - ((5+5+5+5+10)+100).02=132.6</div> <div>Since the bard beats you he pulls agro.  You can either suppliment this defency with damage or use redemption</div> <div> </div> <div>Scenario 2- Same as above but you place redemption on the bard</div> <div> </div> <div> <div>Healer 1 hate is 90 points</div> <div> <div>Healer 2 hate is 90 points</div> <div>Healer 3 hate is 90 points</div> <div>Healer 4 hate is 90 points</div> <div>Bard hate is 110</div> <div> </div> <div>10% group buff - So your effective hate is (10+10+10+10+90)+100+4.6=234.6</div> <div>5% group buff - (5+5+5+5+80)+100+4=204</div> <div>Your hate no beats the bard so you are able to maintain agro.</div> <div> </div> <div>As it has been beaten with a dead horse, someone please sticky this [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] thread so we don't have to go over it on a daily basis.  </div> <div> </div> <div>And yes, if you find a jasper or palladium, hand down you should adept 3 redemption over ANYTHING else.  Every other skill you get in T3 level range is upgraded EXCEPT Redemption.  Redemption currently has no upgrade.</div></div></div></div><hr></blockquote>Or you just use Zealous Preaching / Clarion Call (@ L50) and keep cycling you taunts. Here is your group, now tell me who to keep redemption on: L50 Zerker L50 Warlock L50 Wizard L50 Templar L50 Necro Personally, I do not believe Redemption is needed to keep aggro if you are smart about it.  Not taunting (which is what seems you are doing above) is death to a MT, no matter how much % of hate you have transfered to you.  If it was a 1 slot concentration buff, then I might keep it up, but this is what I run: -- Benediction -- L40 Training Buff on myself -- L40 Training Buff of Main Healer People can agree/disagree etc, but it all comes down to what works for the player best.  The time when I lose aggro is when we are in a heroic group fighting, and another heroic group adds in.  This is mainly due to the fact that our AoE taunt is on a 30 sec timer, and a stragaler will normally get away, then it's just a matter of mana burning til aggro is back <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Again this is just my opinion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Talbot]

<DIV>And Meridian,  in your scenario it is a completely dependant on the mobs you are killing.  In the situation where the mobs will be unknown.  Zerker will be the best bet.  In the case of the 2 mages, it is dependant on who has upgraded their toons the most and pumps out the dps.  As i said before you are an agro manager.  Not a Hate generator.  Once the combat revamp goes live that may change.  </DIV>

[Auron]

<P>lol yeah theres a pretty simple way to get more agro, taunt....  Only thing i ever have problems losing agro to are warlocks when i would pull a large amount of mobs and there like EAT DEVESTATION , and then they get to eat agro.</P>

[djhbeek]

yep ... any discussion of aggro that doesn't mention taunting does not deserve a sticky ... <div></div>

[Talbot]

<DIV>Thank the wonderful trolls.  WHERE DID I SAY THIS IS AGRO MANAGEMENT 101.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What does the Subject say.  Redemption How's and why's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I swear you folks want new players to not even bother with the game.  You must really have a miserable life if the best thing you can do is come on a board and nitpick.  This is exactly why experienced folks hate coming to boards is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot][expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] hoping in and trying to find fault.  Rather than offer some real constructive thoughts you would rather the same question be asked over and over.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Find somewhere else to troll.  Of course you taunt.  That is a no brainer.  What people are having a hard time grasping is the agro transferance rather than just pure hate generation.  Go take a few classes in reading then come back.</DIV>

[djhbeek]

From your post:     We gain <b>all</b> of our hate bye lowering our groups hate. I don't think I read that wrong ... if we are gonna sticky something for newbie paladins, let's make it accurate, and that statement isn't even close. Also, refrain from the name calling.  I merely stated that your post didn't deserve to be stickied and why, that's not trolling ... <div></div>

[Talbot]

<DIV>Feel better now?  Should I also change the Subject to reflect agro managment 101?</DIV>

[djhbeek]

When you calm down and feel like discussing what % of hate comes from redemption/buffs as opposed to taunts, let me know ... until then direct the rude responses at someone who cares ... <div></div>

[Yrield]

Little quiz here: One Mt group -Paladin -Mystic -Templar -Warden -Dirge -Wizard fighting an elementals resistant mob a la Drayek, where do you put redemption and why ? <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> Hint: Ice comet don't land on Drayek <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Yrieldom wrote:Little quiz here: One Mt group -Paladin -Mystic -Templar -Warden -Dirge -Wizard fighting an elementals resistant mob a la Drayek, where do you put redemption and why ? <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> Hint: Ice comet don't land on Drayek <div></div><hr></blockquote>Depends on the weapons being used, but a Dirge with some fabled / legandary Slashing / Piercing weapons (no crushing) would put out decent damage. I would def put it on a warlock if he were in the fight since Poison and Disease are the way to go on him.  From a pure DPS standpoint the Dirge would be king, but it depends on how much aggro the healers were able to get....imho</span><div></div>

[Talbot]

<DIV>Fighting the elementals I would still slap it on the wizzie.  They are still affected by the wizzie's spells.  On handling nothing but drayek the dirge would be the most agro producer provided he is also draining power.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But anyone who says paladins handle most of their agro management through use of taunts and damage reall need to sit down and figure out the math.  I will do a scenario in a bit with a warlock with all masters in his main damage spells and compare it to the hate generated by a paladin alone without agro transferance.  2 and 3 percent is huge when dealing with agro.  Every point counts.  Especially on raid mobs.</DIV>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Talbot wrote:<div>Fighting the elementals I would still slap it on the wizzie.  They are still affected by the wizzie's spells.  On handling nothing but drayek the dirge would be the most agro producer provided he is also draining power.  </div> <div> </div> <div>But anyone who says paladins handle most of their agro management through use of taunts and damage reall need to sit down and figure out the math.  I will do a scenario in a bit with a warlock with all masters in his main damage spells and compare it to the hate generated by a paladin alone without agro transferance.  2 and 3 percent is huge when dealing with agro.  Every point counts.  Especially on raid mobs.</div><hr></blockquote>I have held down aggro without redemption numerous times in a group (of guildies) that consisted of: -- L50 Warlock - Devastation, Nil/Dark Distortion all adept 3 -- L50 Wizard  - Ice Comet, can't think of other top nuke - all adept 3 -- L50 Ranger  - Fabled Weapon, using bow, and pure dps -- L50 Mystic   -  Major master spells in healing -- L50 Necro   -  Adept 3 Pets -- L50 Paladin (myself) This was without using Redemption at all on the heroics (normally in SE going against the named, or farming instances) and only using Call to Glory. The casters and ranger were not holding up either. My 5 concentration: 3 for Benediction 1 for Buff on myself 1 for Buff on Mystic I do have Zealous Preaching Master 1, but it isn't that much better then Adept 3 at the moment.....You can check my equipment from the link below, but I do have some proc gear: -- Bloodfire -- SBS -- Lambert Imbued Legs etc... So to sum up, I rarely ever use Redemption and other then grouping with a zerker who rampages, or having another group of heroics add. I rarely (and I mean rarely) ever lose aggro with just Taunts.</span><div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Talbot wrote:<div>Fighting the elementals I would still slap it on the wizzie.  They are still affected by the wizzie's spells.  On handling nothing but drayek the dirge would be the most agro producer provided he is also draining power.  </div> <div> </div> <div>But anyone who says paladins handle most of their agro management through use of taunts and damage reall need to sit down and figure out the math.  I will do a scenario in a bit with a warlock with all masters in his main damage spells and compare it to the hate generated by a paladin alone without agro transferance.  2 and 3 percent is huge when dealing with agro.  Every point counts.  Especially on raid mobs.</div><hr></blockquote>..but you do not know how the hate generation calculation is based...so saying a 3500 Devastation from a Warlock generates x amount of hate is not fact. We can cast Clarion Call (or Goading Gesture) every 8 secs, and that does > 500 hate. Not sure what the recast timer on the warlock spell is, but does it generate more hate in the amount it is casted, then a Pally casting Clarion Call every 8 secs....and that is not including Zealous Preaching, our Shield Bash, call to glory etc...</span><div></div>

[Talbot]

<DIV>I can tell you exactly what the warlock spells do in damage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Devastation master 1 - 686-840 damage every 1.5 seconds for 6 seconds - recast 45 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Nil Distortion Master 1 - 1746-2618 - recast 18 seconds</DIV> <DIV>Dark Distortion Master 1 - 742-1114 - recast 9 seconds</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The above damage doesn't take into consideration debuffs either and they hate those generate.  I can promise you, if you don't put redemption on the warlock he is gunna drop with a quickness. And in the scheme of things...  taunts mean didly in comparison to the dps being pushed out.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Talbot on <SPAN class=date_text>07-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:49 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Talbot on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:50 PM</span>

[djhbeek]

yah, I've never seen anything on what the hate numbers mean ... I suspect they have ratios in the code that they can mess around with ...  it can't just be 1 hp dam = 1 hp healed = 1 hate, cause healers would never get agro if that were the case due to the discrepancy between mob hp and player hp (in an avg battle player dps FAR outweighs player healing). <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Talbot wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>I can tell you exactly what the warlock spells do in damage</div> <div> </div> <div>Devastation master 1 - 686-840 damage every 1.5 seconds for 6 seconds - recast 45 seconds</div> <div>Nil Distortion Master 1 - 1746-2618 - recast 18 seconds</div> <div>Dark Distortion Master 1 - 742-1114 - recast 9 seconds</div> <div> </div> <div>The above damage doesn't take into consideration debuffs either and they hate those generate.  I can promise you, if you don't put redemption on the warlock he is gunna drop with a quickness. And in the scheme of things...  taunts mean didly in comparison to the dps being pushed out.</div> <p>Message Edited by Talbot on <span class="date_text">07-14-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:49 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Talbot on <span class="date_text">07-14-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:50 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Until we can figure out what the hate generation calculation is, damage means nothing.  Do you know how much hate is generated when say a 2618 Nil Distortion is cast on a mob? Guessing not, since this hasn't been published. Believe me or not, but as I stated above, I have group with the above group and not lost aggro without redemption on.</span><div></div>

[Yrield]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Yrieldom wrote:Little quiz here: One Mt group -Paladin -Mystic -Templar -Warden -Dirge -Wizard fighting an elementals resistant mob a la Drayek, where do you put redemption and why ? <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> Hint: Ice comet don't land on Drayek <div></div><hr></blockquote>Depends on the weapons being used, but a Dirge with some fabled / legandary Slashing / Piercing weapons (no crushing) would put out decent damage. I would def put it on a warlock if he were in the fight since Poison and Disease are the way to go on him.  From a pure DPS standpoint the Dirge would be king, but it depends on how much aggro the healers were able to get....imho</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Keep in mind that you have 18 others players beating the mobs <span>:smileywink:</span> of course those mighty warlock/predator/rogue are in the dps group chilling with the monk and the bruiser </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Yrieldom on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:07 PM</span>

[Talbot]

<DIV>Your warlock must not be as suicidal is ours.  But we yell at him if he doesn't chain cast.  Hence why we is grouped with a paladin.  To lower his overall agression so it is easier to manage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point of the thread was not agro management 101 but simply to explain the conception in clearer detail.  Folks wanted to hijack the thread and make it into an agro management course.  Where the title says it all.  Redemption How's and why's.  Not agro management 101.  So many new paladins and even old paladins don't fully utilize the skills that we have.  </DIV>

[djhbeek]

The title says Redemption - How's and Why's, the description of Redemption makes claims that simply have not been proven.  If you're going to make claims about how important the spell is, be prepared for a discussion of that ... <div></div>

[Talbot]

<DIV>Ok fine.  I challange you to group with a damage class.  Don't use your group buff or redemption.  see if you can hold agro v's ^^ blue con or greater using just taunts.  I will wager.  You will not be able to hold agro unless they are severely gimped.  i.e. haven't been upgrading.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then slap redemption on the person that generally pulled agro first and see what happens.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes it has been proven to how it works.  </DIV>

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>djhbeek wrote: From your post: We gain <b>all</b> of our hate bye lowering our groups hate. I don't think I read that wrong ... if we are gonna sticky something for newbie paladins, let's make it accurate, and that statement isn't even close. Also, refrain from the name calling. I merely stated that your post didn't deserve to be stickied and why, that's not trolling ... <div></div> <hr></blockquote> /thread

[djhbeek]

well ... i'm not saying redemption doesn't do anything ... in a tough aggro situation, redemption will usually add enough hate to put you over the top.  However, in testing whether hate transfer is MOST of our hate-generation, try this: Scenario A 1.   Set up with all your hate transfers. 2.   Pull 3.   Do not taunt or melee Scenario B 1.   Don't use and hate transfers 2.   Pull 3.   Taunt and melee If Hate Transfer > Taunt and Melee then you should hold agro better in A than B, but I'm pretty sure B will work better. What does this tell us?  Hate Transfer is NOT the MAJORITY of our hate generation, it however IS enough to keep us on top WHEN it is needed. <div></div>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Talbot, despite the trolls, I think you are being a bit ambitious in trying to get this thread stickied, on such a specific topic. Personally  I'd like to see stickied a thread which has the full list of spells and upgrades by timer, with discussion of which spells to upgrade, racial traights etc with reasons.  As that info is currently scattered throughout the forum, and would include redemption. I'm also a bit curious to see how much MORE important redemption is after the combat revamp, where reading between the lines I see our melee dps dropping dramatically.  It will make the above responders look a bit silly, if melee dps does drop, as with the way Paladins currently chew through power, OOP is always a problem.  And when OOP, the only aggro you are getting are from Melee and Redemption <span>:smileyhappy:</span><p>Message Edited by Antryg Mistrose on <span class=date_text>07-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:22 AM</span>

[K'aldar]

personally i think he made up the numbers to prove a point.. and that taunting consistantly in a fight is a given.   point is our taunts don't cut it without some help.   as for myself i never use redemption but without theron's or other group buffs i could never keep aggro like i do. nice post there, and an important one at that. <div></div>

[GorDa]

<P>redemption as some great uses... ill give u a good example. ive tested it mostly in raid aspect. ur mt vs the arch litch or even any mobs that stun and silence u slap redemption on an other tank/ prefered a zerker</P> <P>and have them taunt for u. even if ur stuned or silenced they are building agro for u. other situation is with breeze, if there on chanter per raid hes got to breeze 24 players and with each thick breeze generates agro now can u imagine how 24 thicks at once can generate alot? redemption him and hes fine if u dont wen adds pop they go straight for the chanter.</P> <P>in other grp situation were u have a necro in grp u redemption his pet and have him use pet taunts.  if the pets taunts and u taunt no way that warlock or wiz can steal agro. since call to glory allready take 5% hate away from them to you. </P> <P>xeechah lev 50 pally of luncan d'lere</P>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Talbot wrote:<div>Ok fine.  I challange you to group with a damage class.  Don't use your group buff or redemption.  see if you can hold agro v's ^^ blue con or greater using just taunts.  I will wager.  You will not be able to hold agro unless they are severely gimped.  i.e. haven't been upgrading.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Then slap redemption on the person that generally pulled agro first and see what happens.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Yes it has been proven to how it works.  </div><hr></blockquote>Ok, I said this 40 other times in my posts, but your post makes it seem like you NEED redemption to handle aggro in a high DPS group...I have shown in my posts that I can hold aggro fine with both Wizards and Warlocks (and Necros, Ranger, etc) in the same group WITHOUT Redemption running. Now I do use Call to Glory (not the L40 Training Spell of this), but I do NOT use redemption at all.  As I stated above, our Sorcerrers are ALL using Adept 3 spells (don't believe any masters currently) and do not just sit there without casting. A big part of aggro beyond taunts, and buffs is also Proc Gear.....maybe we should have a post stating this, rather then your <b>opinion </b>that people who don't use Redemption can't hold aggro.  Since it seems there are numerous people who can.</span><div></div>

[djhbeek]

My point was simply this:  Hate-stealing is not in most cases a MAJORITY of our agro, it is instead a useful tool to be used when it is needed.  Exageration to make a point:  If Redemption caused you to gain 2% more hate, and you were consistantly falling behind in hate by 1%, you'd still want to cast Redemption.  And as mentioned above, using Redemption against mobs that stun or stifle is probably the best way to keep those situations.  However, claiming that it is the greatest source of agro for us might cause newer paladins to ignore the more basic forms of keeping aggro, and reading the OP as it is leads people to believe that 1hp dam = 1 hate, which simply hasn't been proven.  I'd love for someone to do research on what that ratio actually is ... <div></div>

[Skabanis]

<DIV>i found redemption master about 3-4 months back for 40g and it was and will be the best master till something like it replaces it...37% hate...doesnt matter who i put it on, i useally put on mage or Bezerker...makes life easy for me...dont have to mana burn to grab a mob i can blast away and through in a tuant and its mine...</DIV>

[RiotActer]

<P>The nice thing about EQ2 is it's pretty much all situational.  There is no "end all be all" way to play your toon....</P> <P>I'm in a very small guild, and we've played other games together.  In EQ2 our mains are like this:</P> <OL> <LI>Pally</LI> <LI>Guard</LI> <LI>Beserker</LI> <LI>Templar</LI> <LI>Warden</LI> <LI>Wizzard</LI></OL> <P>Our R/L ages range from 9yrs old to 40+.</P> <P>As were we're leveling our toons, I was mostly the MT.  The warden and I were usually 4 to 5 levels higher than the rest of the clan.  Once I hit level 46, the leveling slowed down a lot, and the others picked up ground.  At lvl 50, everyone is around 48.  I've decided to stop being the MT and give the duty to the Guard...  Why?  Frankly I wanted to try Off-tanking.  Brush off the dust on Grant of Armor Master 1 and what not.</P> <P>Our Beserker doesn't like to tank at all <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  She just loves DPSing.  We all know that Zerkers can pull aggro from anyone.  Especially if they are full out DPSing.  I've done some playing around as off tank with Redemption Adept III.  If the Zerker grabs aggro a few things happen...  The healers have to heal a heck of a lot more.  Moving focus off the Guardian MT.  The Zerker starts taking a lot of damage because she is not in "Tanking Form".  The guard starts to mana burn to get aggro back.  </P> <P>This can lead to longer downtime between fights, a group wipe, or very close calls, or the zerker going down and needing battle rezing.  </P> <P>In my off-tank roll, I've really learned to use Redemption.  In our group, the Zerker usually gathers the most hate.  So I always slap redemption on now.  It makes the guards job of MT much easier.  Faster fights, less down time for power regens...</P> <P>In the above group, I usually don't have to worry about Wizzard gaining aggro in a long fight.  Usually she's just shelling out power and throwing a few spells out during the recycle.   But if we are in an area where adds pop, she can get into trouble fast.  I can peal off the main attack and grab the aggro from her with just taunts...  Meanwhile in the main battle, my redemption is still active on the zerker.  I'm still drawling hate to aid the MT.  The MT then switches to the next encounter, which is on me, and can get the aggro with just a few taunts.  Why?  Because I didn't cast redemption on the Wizzy.</P> <P>Again, I'm just stressing that it's all situational.  It all depends on the group, the people behind the keyboard, etc.  Some would say that the guard isn't doing his job, the zerker class is borked, etc.  But pallys can "fix" some of these problems by being the aggro quarterback.  </P> <P>Another Tip with redemption usage as MT.  Keep your Maintained Spells list near your hot keys.  I usually go into a tough fight with Benedication, Crusade on the healer.  (I have a level 38 Alchy that makes me STR/STA and INT/WIS potions.  The T4 ones are easy to make and are +17 in each stat / 30 min buff that can't be dispelled).  That leaves me with one free con slot.  If I loose aggro to another in the group, it tells me they are #1 in the hate list and probably gathering the most hate.  I will cancel Crusade and slap redemption on the current aggro holder and Rescue / Taunt.  This way I don't have to mana burn to get aggro back.  It becomes a much easier and faster a process than not casting redemption.</P> <P>Well, that's all the advice on Redemption I've got.  It's a nice spell that should have a home on your main hotkeys.  Like I stated before, it's all situational.  There's never a "have to do it this way", or "only way to use it".  It's just a nice tool that pally's get.</P> <DIV>EDIT: Typo's</DIV><p>Message Edited by RiotActer on <span class=date_text>07-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 PM</span>

[SanJ]

<DIV>Perhaps a thread entitled "Aggro Management:  Success Stories" would merit a forum sticky that could help new Paladins having difficulty with aggro?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have tried a wide variety of tactics on mobs with varying levels of success.  Likewise, party markup, specific mobs, raids vs. groups, etc. change my tactics.  The sign of a good Paladin is a Paladin that can adept to a variety of scenerios and still be successful at the end of the day.  When someone takes your aggro, you don't throw out band aids or button mash (well sometimes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  You try to analyze the situation and determine what needs to be modified.  Did you need more alone time with the mob to establish hate?  Is a nuker in the group doing so much dps so fast, they require redemption?  Do you need to taunt more often?  Do you need to explore HO possibilities that magnify your hate or minimally cause you to taunt more? and the list goes on!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I had to toss in a single piece of advice on aggro management, it would currently be HO (heroic opportunities).  I do NOT use redemption as part of my normal daily tactics.  If the time is right, I will use the spell.  However, I have MT'd for 5 dps classes at once that would require a supreme court decision on who to cast redemption, yet I have done well without the spell.  Likewise, I've used it as a band aid when to fix lost aggro issues (like to a Zerker not playing their toon correctly when they are NOT MT!).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For me, aggro management is something harder to deal with using Paladin skills vs. Guardian and Zerker skills.  You may agree you may not, but I do know that whoever is tank, the right combination of HOs along the way allow the MT to keep aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I taunt as fast as I can (usually completing an HO - 2 player mage/fighter or 3 player mage/scout/fighter), but I also use our wards in the middle of combat.  If I use them as much as I'd like, I run out of mana too fast, thus my desire for the lower mana cost.  If I don't use them some during battle, my taunts (adept 1's) are often not effective enough to hold aggro the whole fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I shield bash whenever it's up (usually in a two player HO with a wizard when the scout HO starter is counting back down for reuse) as a third taunt, but my typical session still goes as:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Kalen pulls with a solo completed HO (includes taunt)</DIV> <DIV>2. Kalen casts Call to Glory while running to the group (casts while moving and makes mobs unhappy)</DIV> <DIV>3. Kalen starts a third HO while approaching the group that is advanced by the wizard and possibly flipped by the scout to allow me to shield bash as I "plant" for combat. (more hate)</DIV> <DIV>4. I use whichever taunt aoe/singe that is up (more hate)</DIV> <DIV>5. Chase that with Prayer of Conviction (makes mobs unhappy again)</DIV> <DIV>6. Attacks and almost always in between or part of an HO combination (shooting for only 3 player and 4 player HOs)  If I'm with guild members and normal grouping partners we chain HOs like there's some sort of prize at the end for the group that completes the most in under a minute <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  As I get better and better and as our groups get better and better, we are starting to skip some of the 3 player and 4 player HOs to include special resists and special buffs some of the smaller 2 player and odd 3 player HOs can encompass--read up on them at OGaming--amazing stuff!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using the above tactics does require me to taunt in between attacks, and during long battles to recast our call and our prayer.  However, unless I get really lazy, aggro is JUST NOT an issue and that is with 50 assassin's, 50 warlocks, 50 wizards, etc.  I must confess that after 50 levels of combat it can be a bit tedious and repetitive--HOs are the saving grace to boring combat in  many situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find a wonderful use for Redemption on the raid scene is to protect a player that just seems to be picking up aggro for no apparent reason.  We have a 50 Illusionist in our guild that can stand on rock 2 zones away (afk) and draw aggro on the intial mob pull from the tank  (I think Illusionist leak aggro <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  At any rate, as an OT role for my local 6 player group, I can place this player under redemption and help spread the hate generated individually too two players.  Likewise, if the raid tank is working aggro hard, we might avoid the one-shot to the Illusionist--and did on our successful King Drayak raid this past weekend.  Plus it's usually better for a plate wearer to pickup aggro vs. a bath robe wearer--no?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I appreciate the original poster listing the possibiities for Redemption with explanations as this helps a lot of new tanks better understand our skills.  I know it's my 2nd favorite gray con spell behind my tier 1 single taunt which I now use exclusively for completing HOs on the raid scene.  Likewise, if someone told me I had to compete against other tanks in the game all of us burning mana, etc. to see who could get aggro--I doubt any Pally on this forum wouldn't "band aid" up the other tank with redemption to ensure success <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,<BR>Kalen<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>