Paladins (will) have heals and a nice array of taunts

[WAPCE]

From <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=29576#M29576" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=29576#M29576</a> <blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote: <P>Fighters are tanks. They don't all tank the same, and tanking isn't all they do, but that doesn't change the core role all fighters share. While some might envision a different approach, that role isn't going to go away just because some might prefer a different take on certain classes.</P> <P>The combat revamp isn't just a changing of balance numbers; it is a reevaluation of abilities. For fighters, this means some expanded spell lines, some shifting around of abilities from one subclass to another, and changes to the way defensive buffs work.</P> <P>Right now, guardians are far and away the best tank due to a combination of their buff stacking and the way defensive buffs are seen in combat rolls. Both those aspects are changing. Think of the guardian's abilities as being spread around a bit to the other fighter classes.</P> <P>In no particular order (other than pairing subclasses of the same class), here are a few (but not all) of the ways tanks will be distinguished from one another after the changes take effect. </P> <UL> <LI>Guardians will have the greatest capability to grant their defense to others. They also have a greater number of taunts.</LI> <LI>Berserkers will do more damage than guardians, especially when tanking. While they also have taunts, part of their taunting comes from the damage they do.</LI> <LI>Paladins have heals and a nice array of taunts.</LI> <LI>Shadowknights have lifetaps and higher damage than paladins.</LI> <LI>Monks excel in avoidance, and their ability to purge negative spell effects is being expanded.</LI> <LI>Bruisers mitigate a bit better and do more damage than monks, which again is the basis for part of their taunting ability.</LI></UL> <P>All fighters will have useful defensive and offensive stances that they can choose depending on their role in the group. Additionally, each fighter will gain a significant resistance to a particular type of damage, which should make different classes be desirable under certain situations.</P> <P>Again, this isn't about taking away tanking from guardians. I suspect after the revamp, in a lot of raid situations you'd still want a guardian as main tank. However, the changes should give more flexibility to other tank classes, and give situational advantages to each. Personally, I'm looking forward to that.</P> <hr></blockquote> I'm hoping that means the taunts are being upgraded, and he's not just referring to what we already have. I also feel bad for someone that dished out the plat for a Gift of Armament- Master I (or some other spell), only to have the spell removed and given to a Guardian.

[GilfalasElaandrin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WAPCE wrote:<BR><BR>I'm hoping that means the taunts are being upgraded, and he's not just referring to what we already have. <BR><BR>I also feel bad for someone that dished out the plat for a Gift of Armament- Master I (or some other spell), only to have the spell removed and given to a Guardian.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Not sure where you get the idea that we will be losing the Armament line. In fact this line from the post you quoted:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Right now, guardians are far and away the best tank due to a combination of their buff stacking and the way defensive buffs are seen in combat rolls. Both those aspects are changing. <STRONG>Think of the guardian's abilities as being spread around a bit to the other fighter classes</STRONG>.</EM></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Would seem to indicate quite the opposite. That GUARDIANS may be losing some of their abilty to buff others, or that we will be gaining some of it to some extent not that we would be losing anything.</DIV>

[WAPCE]

<I>For fighters, this means some expanded spell lines, <B>some shifting around of abilities from one subclass to another</B>, and changes to the way defensive buffs work.</I> When you move abilities from one subclass to another, someone has to lose something. I don't have any idea what that will be, I was just giving an example. I can't think of any spell I haven't vested something in and would be happy to give up.<p>Message Edited by WAPCE on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:05 PM</span>

[hieronym]

<DIV>the way the combat changes are going the way i read them to be pallys are gonna be just above guardians for dps meaning to me they will be far better tanks than they are now, hopefully this will mean better taunts as otherwise whats the point in dropping the dps and not upping the defensive capabilities</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i for one am looking forward to the changes, a) my 50 ranger will be higher up the DPS chart and b) my pally will be more of a tank in the raid game when i eventaully get him high enough</DIV>

[jshari]

I really hope we get a very usfull role out of this.... not just a 2nd class tank if we are not going to be high dmg, and not the best tanks then make us The Best asisst tanks then. We should be the ideal asisst tank with great asisst abilities. like a good gift of adarnment and good buffs along with other good asiist spells. any thats what i think <div></div>

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>jshariat wrote:I really hope we get a very usfull role out of this.... not just a 2nd class tank if we are not going to be high dmg, and not the best tanks then make us The Best asisst tanks then. We should be the ideal asisst tank with great asisst abilities. like a good gift of adarnment and good buffs along with other good asiist spells. any thats what i think <div></div><hr></blockquote>Since day1 the game stated all fighters are tank, some tank are more offensive some other are more defensive. Paladins and Guardians are labeled  as defensive tank I suggest you to open 2 browsers and go to ogaming and compare the skill [20 to 50] of the guardian and the paladin the consept: Guardian use PASSIVE defense using buff and ACTIVE aggro using a lot of taunt. Paladin use ACTIVE defense using ward and heal, Passive aggro using a lot of hatemods and support taunt. Both class have nice off-tank stuff The original concept failed because some obvious reasons A. Warrior buff stacking, guardian can stack-buff 1.6k HP, berserker can stack-buff 1.4k HP ..... so you have a tank with 3000 HP over the others B. The way Defense work in the current system. Defense should give an bonus again an attack roll, right now its not the case: the current system use defense as your level of effectiveness, so with 300 defense you tank like a lvl60... [some fictive numbers here]  lvl50 with 250 defense vs a lvl50 mobs: the mobs will hit you 7 swing out of 10 lvl50 with 300 defense vs a lvl50 mobs: the mobs will hit you 1 swing out of 10 Why ? because you tank 10 lvl over your real level, so you don't tank a white con anymore but a grey con C. Ward never worked as intended (thank to the shaman here) D. aggro generation of the paladin never worked as intended After the combat change A,B,C don't exist anymore. For D. moorgard said "a nice array of taunts" so wait and see I never rolled a Paladin to be DPS or to be an assist tank and SOE seem to think like me. And its kinda about time I'm starting to get tired to tank in the middle of a minefield with 5 cobras in my pants when  warriors are feed with the golden spoon for over 8 months and still find a way to whine. We gonna be one hell of a tank if we don't have to burn power like crazy to hold aggro ! <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div>

[Mattim]

<em>All fighters will have useful defensive and offensive stances that they can choose depending on their role in the group. Additionally, each fighter will gain a significant resistance to a particular type of damage, which should make different classes be desirable under certain situations.</em>We can only hypothesize about what will or won't be. Although, that information above sounds interesting. So, even if we can't be the MT then we may still be useful in the offtank role. Afterall, the idea that the fighter is <b>only</b> a tank doesn't appeal to me 100% of the time, it's unreasonable thinking. Hopefully though, after the changes paladins in a group will be assumed to be the MT instead of just another DPS.

[jshari]

true i guess im just scared we will be  2nd class tanks no one wants... = ( but hey mabe will pwn /dream <div></div>

[Pilo]

We already have heals and a nice array of taunts.  Thank you. Perhaps more variety in the kind of healing (group, reactive, regen?) or taunting (other than 1 single target, 1 group, and using non-taunt, hatebuilding spells like wards, heals, and buffs) would be nice, though.  I'm not necessarily looking for an increase in ability -- just variety. Am I the only one that thinks we're not broken? <div></div>

[Valian1]

<DIV>He gave a good examples on guardians and zerkers on how they will change. But al he said is that we will have heals and a array of taunts. This still kinda confuses me on where our placement will be in the tanking role. It seems our buffs may not be upgraded a whole lot if any but our taunts will. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I seriously doubt that they are going to take skills away from classes, i doubt they will give us more skills/spells. I think theyre just gonna upgrade/down grade them to fit whatever vision that they want that particular class to be in a common group.</DIV>

[Mattim]

<blockquote><hr>Pilot2 wrote:We already have heals and a nice array of taunts. Thank you. Perhaps more variety in the kind of healing (group, reactive, regen?) or taunting (other than 1 single target, 1 group, and using non-taunt, hatebuilding spells like wards, heals, and buffs) would be nice, though. I'm not necessarily looking for an increase in ability -- just variety. Am I the only one that thinks we're not broken? <div></div><hr></blockquote>I don't know why you were one-starred, but no we're not broke. If you ask me from both the paladin- and healer-side of the coin, meaning I've played both, paladins are probably how they envision a tank tanking. If you do your job, as a paladin you can hold agro and be a real asset to your group.In my last post I highlighted the part of the quote which excites me though, useful offensive stances would be really nifty. To me this has visions of Shadowbane where you could go offensive/neutral/defensive and it either raised, was null or lowered your offensive/defensive capabilities depending on your stance. The idea that I could gift some mitigation to the monk in my party, then go into an offensive stance and do the dps/heal routine while duoing.. doing more than normal damage, that really has a ring of usefulness. If nothing else, the potential is that you won't feel you've 'lost' a group slot to 'just another tank'.

[jshari]

yeah lol ive been getting one starred of and on and it seems for no reason, exept having a different opinoin. I also am very confused on just where we are going to end up after all this. Hopefully. we wont get the lower end of the deal <div></div>

[lisasdarr]

<span><blockquote><hr>WAPCE wrote: I'm hoping that means the taunts are being upgraded, and he's not just referring to what we already have. I also feel bad for someone that dished out the plat for a Gift of Armament- Master I (or some other spell), only to have the spell removed and given to a Guardian.<hr></blockquote>I suspect that the things buffs do will change, so the armament spell might change in its function (and possibly its name) but every paladin that already has it will keep it at the same level (though possibly with its new name) I'd be very suprised if abilities literally moved from one class to another for teh very reason you state above.</span><div></div>

[K'aldar]

way i see it our taunts will get upgraded, and heals/wards will stay about the same.  <div></div>

[SanJ]

<DIV>I hate that we only get tidbits of data here and there without a more detailed explanation.  However, based soley on what is listed above, I have to speculate as follows:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Guardians <FONT color=#ffff00>will</FONT> have the greatest capability to grant their defense to others. They also have a greater number of taunts.</LI> <LI>Berserkers <FONT color=#ffff00>will</FONT> do more damage than guardians, especially when tanking. While they also have taunts, part of their taunting comes from the damage they do.</LI> <LI>Paladins have heals and a nice array of taunts.</LI> <LI>Shadowknights have lifetaps and higher damage than paladins.</LI> <LI>Monks excel in avoidance, and their ability to purge negative spell effects <FONT color=#ffff00>is being expanded</FONT>.</LI> <LI>Bruisers mitigate a bit better and do more damage than monks, which again is the basis for part of their taunting ability.</LI></UL> <P>Notice that Guardians are listed as WILL (I highlighted it in yellow) have ... To me, this means change is on the way for that profession.  Again Beserkers are listed as WILL ... indicating change to come.</P> <P>Now notice Paladins.  It does not say WILL or anything else that indicates change.  The post tells me they are likely not changing too much about our profession (and to be honest most seem to be pretty happy sans the mana cost/ranged slot/stacking issues/etc.).  SK's I read just like Pally's--probably little to no change.</P> <P>Monks are listed showing what they do/have now BUT also showing purging of negative spell effects IS being expanded (denotes change to me).</P> <P>Bruisers seem to be in the boat of Pally and SK without nothing specific listed.  We can't anticipate new defensive buffs, higher dps when tanking, an expanded ability to purge ill effects, etc.  Does this mean we are not changing?  No it means we'll have to wait and see what actually happens because they didn't see fit to enlighten us on this post.</P> <P>I will say that I DO NOT see us getting better taunts and wards based soley on reading the Moorgard post above--although I wouldn't complain if that were the case. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>There is another post that mentions different tank classes getting different resists that might make them a more viable raid tank choice in an attempt to help diversify the raid tank role in CERTAIN situations.  I think giving a resist out based on profession alone is really silly (i.e. I'm a Paladin and I resist heat well??).  However, I suspect they'll tweak a raid mob resist here and there so much so that if you are Monk as an example (maybe they'll resist disease so good) you'd be a better raid tank in that scenerio against that mob based on that resist.  I was hoping for something better and still do prior to actual rollout.  Having a resist because you are a profession type alone is a bit odd.  Race based resists I could see possibly and definitely before class.</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P>

[Troodon]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>SanJun wrote: There is another post that mentions different tank classes getting different resists that might make them a more viable raid tank choice in an attempt to help diversify the raid tank role in CERTAIN situations.  I think giving a resist out based on profession alone is really silly (i.e. I'm a Paladin and I resist heat well??).  However, I suspect they'll tweak a raid mob resist here and there so much so that if you are Monk as an example (maybe they'll resist disease so good) you'd be a better raid tank in that scenerio against that mob based on that resist.  I was hoping for something better and still do prior to actual rollout.  Having a resist because you are a profession type alone is a bit odd.  Race based resists I could see possibly and definitely before class. <hr></blockquote> I think every Fighter would appreciate more info from the devs on what they actually intend, divining meaning from the little we do have is fraught with problems. Coupled with the lack of even basic hard data on other subclasses, any objective and fair analysis is hard. I guess the reason why we dont have any comprehensive info is that the devs are scratching their heads trying to sort out this mess and waiting until they have a complete new system to present to the player base rather than release it in drips and drabs and thus incite complaints from those that are unhappy. Regarding Situational Advantages of the various classes against types of mobs, I could imagine the following (I could easily be wrong though, its just an example): </span> <ul> <li><span>All fighters share the same basic tanking potential.</span></li> <li><span>The various subclasses have a small bonus to this potential based on some abstract notion of the value of the other abilities they offer. </span></li> <li><span>Two game changes:</span></li> </ul> <blockquote> <ol> <li><span>Plate tanks are going to get an Avoidance nerf, meaning we're likely be interrupted more frequently.</span></li> <li><span>Reactive heals will no longer add aggro to the person they heal, but to the priest. Thus a tank wont be able to stand there stunned/interrupted and still hold aggro thanks to a Priest. </span></li> </ol> </blockquote> <ul> <li>Warriors have a bonus to resisting melee forms of damage, thus preferable against small but hard hitting melee groups.</li> <li>Brawlers, though having no specific significant resist bonus, have a  high Avoidance and thus have a good chance of avoiding interruption and thus will be preferable to tanking large groups of mobs, or particular mobs with lots of interrupting attacks, where a Warrior or Crusader would be left having a hard time getting an ability sucessfully off.</li> <li>Crusaders have a bonus to resisting magical forms of damage, thus preferable against mobs that focus on spells to damage.</li> </ul> Viable? Ballanced? I dont know, but its the sort of manner in which things could work. As has been pointed out such requires a corresponding change to High End mobs to suit the different situational advantages of the classes. The design of new raids could take such a notion to their core, indeed potentially needing one of each of the Fighter classes to perform the role of the MT or lead an off tank group against specific mobs over the course of an entire raid or protracted encounter. <span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by TroodonIE on <span class=date_text>07-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:09 PM</span>