Input Requested - Guild Raid Loot Policy

[SanJ]

<DIV>Hello all,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've posted several times now mentioning my guild is "beginning" to attempt epic x 4 mobs.  We finally have enough to more consistently put together 24 player raids.  However, we tend to announce a raid that seems of interest to several, do a little research, equip appropriately and give it a try.  We've taken down plenty of epic x 2's and have since moved on (now that we have enough) to work the epic x 4's.  Last night we failed on our first attempt on King Zalak (had a few zone out in the CL on accident), but we took down Rognog in COD (a nice fabled symbol drop, 1 ruby, 2 cedar, 1 afghan, an ancient ebon wand, and a half dozen adept 1's).  Our loot method was to have the raid leader collect all the loot and at the end of the raid, hand out items based on party /random 100's for those interested in an item while emphasizing "need before greed."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The good news is that within a month we'll likely have over 50 players at level 50, but at the same time this method will likely not work well and continue to be "fair".  I've been doing some research (I'm one of our raid assistants atm) to determine what other guilds are doing "policy-wise" to handle raid loot.  We have a great bunch of players now that are very social, very fair and more giving then receiving, but most feel it's time to come up with a game-plan we can post on the guild Web site to ensure everyone is on the same page.  We tend to be leaning towards a point based system with a few spin offs beyond the typical DKP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have studied the DKP system, a variety of spin-off systems, and other systems that still just include /lottery everything.  I see many pros and many cons to each system, but I'd like to continue my research and work on a couple of different options we could allow fellow guildies to "survey" on before we implement a system.  We still have time now since we are raiding more like one time during the week and once on the weekend or just having a lot online and running from zone to zone checking on what's up--many eager beavers ready to raid on a coin drop <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  We are going to start planning at least three raids during the week and one or more on the weekends for those that want to participate, so having a policy in place soon is a priority.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I'd like from you guys is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Links to raid policies that guilds have online now that might be publicly available.  Perhaps we could post just links here and avoid some of the political discussions <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd rather not break this thread into a detailed posting of what everyone is doing and I certainly don't want to start any flame wars, but we've quickly learned that many have different views even within our own guild.  I spent at least two hours post raid in Ventrillo last night discussing with raid attendees their particular views and thoughts.  Lots of consensus on how we felt things would go well, but quite a few differing opinions as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</DIV>

[MeridianR]

The easiest way (I am guessing) and how the guild I am in handles it is: DKP (Dragon Kill Points). Each person who raids, gets a set amount of 'points' for certain raids.  Then you assign a point value to certain items, example: -- Tier 5 Rare (Ebon, Ruby, Cedar, Rhodium, etc) = 10dkp -- Master Spell = 20dkp -- Fabled Jewels = 30dkp -- Fabled Misc Armor = 40dkp -- Fabled Chest or Legs = 50dkp etc..etc.. I believe there is a free open source DKP program out there, that can help you out more if you would like Kalen <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div></div><div></div>Here it is: <a href="http://eqdkp.com/" target=_blank>Open Source DKP System</a> <div></div><p><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class=date_text>07-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 AM</span>

[yzyh]

<P>I don't know about DKP but in EQ1 almost every uold had the same way to share raid point.</P> <P> </P> <P>1. Give point value to each items of interest fo the raid.</P> <P>Exemple: You do raid X</P> <P>item1 = 10point, item2 = 10point also, item3 = 20point and item4 = 30point</P> <P>On the whoel raid item 1,3 and4 drop. its a total of 10 + 20 + 30 = 60point.</P> <P>You were 20 players doing this raid. so everyone have 3 raid point.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you give players a fixed amouth of point for every raid they join. You will have a big problems. poeple will have more Raid Point then what you really earned.</P> <P>Hope I managed to end it clear with my poor english. or well. you do maybe alreayd know that.</P> <DIV>P.S. I would also want to know how guild deal with with loots in EQ2 ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In WoW its still stupid Everyone can role. And some guild let only their groupmate role if the officer don't need anything. But their guild usualy break after  a few raid when they are doing that.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by yzyh on <SPAN class=date_text>07-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:53 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by yzyh on <span class=date_text>07-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:55 AM</span>

[SanJ]

<P>I was actually reading the "About" on the open-source page when I tabbed over here to see if I had any replies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </P> <P>I looked at a few other posts on the topic via Google/AltaVista and many of them made my head hurt .. lol</P> <P>Bookkeeping is one thing but repeating several math minor courses in higher education is something I want to avoid too!</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>SanJun wrote:<p>I was actually reading the "About" on the open-source page when I tabbed over here to see if I had any replies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p> <p>I looked at a few other posts on the topic via Google/AltaVista and many of them made my head hurt .. lol</p> <p>Bookkeeping is one thing but repeating several math minor courses in higher education is something I want to avoid too!</p> <p>Thanks,Kalen</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah doing the bookkeeping for DKP is a job, but you will find many of the top end guilds in the game (and in EQ1) use it as there means to handle loot. The open source program makes it easier, and our DKP person has everyone's points upgraded about 5-10mins after a raid..so I am guessing it can't be that bad. (the program handles a lot of it, but not sure if you need to do a lot of work to get it setup right).</span><div></div>

[Yrield]

DKP of course, easiest way to do it But Dkp alone cant do everything. You will have to face some situation and you need to set the rules before those situation appears. ex.: you have 26 players online and ready/willing to raid, max is 24, how do you deal with the 2 leftover ?: they get dkp for the raid ? can they claim ? at the same time or after the 24 others ? Claiming policy: can peeps claim rare, craft  and put the final product on the broker ? can they claim fabled gear with the sole purpose of making  some plat ? All those  questions need an answer before people get mad <span>:smileywink:</span> <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Yrieldom wrote:DKP of course, easiest way to do it But Dkp alone cant do everything. You will have to face some situation and you need to set the rules before those situation appears. ex.: you have 26 players online and ready/willing to raid, max is 24, how do you deal with the 2 leftover ?: they get dkp for the raid ? can they claim ? at the same time or after the 24 others ? Claiming policy: can peeps claim rare, craft  and put the final product on the broker ? can they claim fabled gear with the sole purpose of making  some plat ? All those  questions need an answer before people get mad <span>:smileywink:</span> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yep, exactly. One of the big questions is also: A Shimmering Band drops, which has power regen on it, but also has like +11 agi (or +11 sta) on it.  Loot polices have to be established before you setup DKP, you have to know how to deal with certain items that could be used by multiple classes.</span><div></div>

[Dwergux]

Below the rules of my guild reagarding our loot distribution policy: Appendix C) Raid Looting and Earned Loot Points 1) Introduction to the Lowland Elites ELP System The Earned Loot Points system for Lowland Elites in EQ2 is based off of the old system used by the guild in EQ. Originally these systems were called DKP (Dragon Kill Points) as they began during the time period when there wasn't much uber in the world (of Everquest, the original game) other than Vox and Nagafen. All ELP and DKP systems share a common trait. Points are earned based upon facing (and defeating) certain targets. The ELP system used by LE in EQ2 has been modified to fit the new game. It retains most of the conventions of the original system. It is being adopted in EQ2 before the guild has taken down any targets of serious (end-game) note and as such will form the foundation of the loot system for future encounters. Until a sufficient number of kills have been accrued by the guild (allowing for a cache of points to be spent on drops), loot will be distributed by /random amongst those able to use the items. 2) Distribution of ELP After each raid the after action report (as completed by the RL) will be examined by the RC. Based upon this information, ELP will be awarded to participating individuals. The ELP paid out will be based upon numerous factors such as: a) Success of the raid. b) Difficulty of the target. c) Average Level and Number of the Raidforce. d) Guild/Server/Gamewide first. e) Conduct of the member during the raid. In general a typical successful raid of average difficulty will net 5 ELP for each participant. Raids which have become trivial may pay out less than this amount (generally 3 ELP for a relatively simple fight for a contested mob, or 1-2 ELP in an instance against a mob which pays no status), while raids which are truly difficult may be worth a signifigant amount more (on the order of 10-15 for the most difficult raids). The general reward for a guild/server/gamewide first will be an additional 1-10 ELP. In addition, the spotting of a contested (3x or 4x) mob which is then brought down by LE (and upon which ELP is awarded) is worth 1 ELP. There is no minimum level on this ELP award, thus any individual spotting a raid (3x or 4x) mob is encouraged to send a tell to Corwynn, Maxsambal, an RC member, or an officer. Note that certain raids are not worth ELP, specifically Guild Raids (awarded for increased guild level), raids on quest instances (such as Bloodskull Valley or Cove of Decay for their respective heritages), the majority of 2 group-mobs, or completely trivial (which present absolutely no challenge) raids. In all cases, the RC determines the ELP to be distributed. Appeals regarding decisions on points may be sent in PM to Corwynn and/or Maxsambal. 3) Accrual of ELP Each individual (mains and alts inclusive) has one ELP pool. All payment must be made from this pool, and ELP may NOT be traded between players without specific RC persmission (this prevents people leaving the game from giving their points to others for example). ELP listed on the website is official, and until updates are accounted for points may not be spent. (The RC will attempt to process all raids within a maximum of 7 days.) 4) ELP Elligible Items All items dropped in a raid are elligible for ELP expenditure except: a) Items designated by the RL as "guild bank" items. b) Items strictly for use as vendor loot (no stats). [Note: these are /randomed after all bidding amongst all individuals who did not successfully bid.] Determination of ELP elligibility for items is at the discretion of the RL. Harassment of the RL over such decisions is not tolerated and may be cause for disciplinairy action. Decisions may be appealed to the RC as a whole by sending a PM which on the forums to Corwynn or Maxsambal. Please include a detailed description of the situation as well as the specific grievance. 5) Elligibility of Individuals for Loot In all cases main (or qualified equivalents, see below) are considered for bidding before alts. In the event that no mains (from members or initiates) are willing to bid for an item, alt bids are considered. All full members of LE are elligible to bid on any item which they can (within 2 levels) and will utilize (items may not be bid upon for sale, nor is it appropriate to bid on an item "for show") for themselves or for an alt. Alts which are of a raid equivalent level (within 1 level per full 15 levels of the main, as long as they could have been present at the raid) are all considered mains for purposes of bidding. This rule protects those individuals who must decide which of their characters is most useful (due to the encounter, or the makeup of other characters in the raid force) during a specific raid. [Examples: A member with a level 50 Templar wishes to bid upon an item usable for their 47th level Guardian. This is acceptable and is treated as a bid for a main. However a member with a level 47 Shadowknight wishes to bid upon an item for their level 42 Fury. As the alt character is not within 3 levels of the main (and would have been too low a level to appropriately contribute to the level 52 Epic encounter) the bid is treated as an alt bid.] [Main/Alt Level Difference Scale: 1-14 - 0 levels, 15-29 - 1 level, 30-44 2 levels, 45-50 3 levels.] Initiate members of LE are inelligible for ELP expenditure on an item (however they are elligible to gain points) unless no full member (main or qualified equivalents) of the guild wishes to bid. Initiates may be granted "member" status for purposes of bidding at the discretion of the RC. (This is influenced among other things by raid attendance and general day-to-day activity of the initiate.) Non-LE guild members are elligible to bid with any LE-gained ELP they have earned once they have attended 3 LE-Sponsored Raids (in other words, on their 4th raid). This is only possible if no LE member or initiate (main or alt) wishes to bid. (In other words, non-members may only bid as a last chance before something goes to the guild bank.) Should a non-LE member decide to join LE, their ELP total gained is retained during the change. LE members who become non-members (those who leave the guild) will have their ELP set to 0 in most cases. 6) Bidding on Items The minimum bid and minimum increase for each item (which will be linked at the time) will be stated by the RL or ML in the /leelp channel. [Example: Inspired Daring (Master I): Min 5 Inc 2] All individuals interested in bidding must bid in /raid with the name of the character to recieve the item and their bid. [Example: Corwynn 5] Bidding continues (incremented by the minimum except if an individual is bidding their complete remaining ELP total, indicated by adding "MAX") as ackowledged by the RL or ML (in /raid the bid will be repeated as "15 to Shirka" though this is NOT required, and bidding may continue withouit acknowledgement) until one individual has the higest bid. In the event of a tied bid which is not exceeded, the RL or ML will /random between the parties. [Example while bidding on a shield, 4 members bid the minimum immediately. None of them are willing to exceed the original bid by the stated minimum increment of 8, thus the RL or ML assigns numbers "Polluxia 1, Deluwen 2, Raif 3, Bernardus 4" and then immediately /randoms 1-4.] There will not always be a minimum increment. [Example: A breastplate is auctioned at "Min 10 Inc 3". Drafox bids 10 to begin, acknowledged as "10 to Drafox". Polluxia bids 14 at approximately the same time Deluwen bids 13, thus the bid is repeated as "14 to Polluxia". Drafox bids 20 as Deluwen bids 17, and it is acknowledged "20 to Drafox". Deluwen then bids 21 (he states "Deluwen 21 - MAX") indicating that it is his total remaining ELP. This is acknowledged as "21 to Deluwen"). The RL or ML then counts off the end of the bidding ("21 to Deluwen - 1", "21 to Deluwen - 2", 21 to Deluwen - Sold") thus Deluwen wins the breastplate], verifies the ELP total and records the result for the after action report. At no time may a bid be placed for more than the current total as shown on the website for an individual. In the event that an individual overbids and wins, they are penalized 3x the last bid, and the item is given to the next highest bidder. [Example: Corwynn gets overly excited and bids 25 for an item. He only has 22 points. Corwynn's total ELP is set to -53 (22 - 75) and Omic recieves the item for 20 points, his last bid.] Any player bidding with a MAX that is GREATER than their actual remaining points is penalized ELP x3 from the stated bid and the item goes to the last highest bidder. [Example: Shirka bids 23 MAX on an item but only has 21 ELP remaining. His total is reduced to -48 (21 - 69) and Twobears wins the item at 19, his last bid.) Any player bidding with a MAX that is LESS than their remaining total is subject to resetting their points to 0 (if their actual max fell within the minimum increment) or a loss of 5 ELP and forfeit of the item to the next lowest bidder. In the event that two identical, or identical in use items drop (for example a fissured ruby and a clouded ruby) both the items go for the second highest bid to the top two bidders. [Example: Yanine, Ronja, Raif and Neut bid on an ebon coin. Raif wins with a bid of 12, while Ronja's last bid was 10. The ebon disks auctioned go for 10 to Ronja and Raif unless Ronja's bid of 10 is surpassed.] In general it is very important for individuals to intelligently bid upon items. It is the responsibility of each member to know how many points they have to work with, and to not lose track during a bidding session. Repeated violations of the bidding process may result in additional penalties at the discretion of the RC. (such as inability to bid for a specified number of raids, additional reduction in ELP, etc.) This is due to the fact that an honest and open bidding process is vital to the health and happiness of all LE members and guests. <div></div>

[sk8erbob]

<DIV>sounds much like the riad i had about 3 hours ago We first took out Angler and also got a nice fabled symbol then headed to King Zalak with out much trouble But when we went to Firemyst to fight Litch we got wiped i lived by like 4% health went back and revived everyone and triad agian this time he casted petrify on us and our MT died then he casted it agian wiping us all out seems we need some beter mental and poisin is what really smashed us.</DIV> <DIV>but anyways we also use the mothod where leader takes all loot and random 100 at end and eveyone is happy</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Skaterbob~45 Paladin </DIV> <DIV>~Dragonsbayne~</DIV> <DIV>~Neriak Server </DIV><p>Message Edited by sk8erbob64 on <span class=date_text>07-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:24 AM</span>

[Nazo]

<P>One thing you need to know about DKP system : That uber jewelery with 200 resists to Crush,Slash etc... that would help your MT a lot ? Well a Cleric can bid on it and get it as well with DKP system.</P> <P>Of all methods of loot distribution DKP will give you the least headache in the long run. However if your guid is just beginning to raid might be a good idea to go with loot council until you at least equip a couple of people with key roles such as the one getting his brains smashed out for you :smileywink:</P>

[SanJ]

<P>Thanks for all the great replies guys.  I sent this link to our raid officer to publish on our guild Web site <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Kalen</P>

[Korpo]

What we're trying to set up is as such: Showing up on time for a scheduled raid gets you 1dkp. Taking down the raid gets you 1dkp. These are for the nightly instance runs. Showing up for a contested within 20 mins of the announcement gets you 2dkp, taking down the mob gets you another 2dkp. Signing up in our forums for the weekend raids (Spirits of the Lost and such) gets you 1dkp, showing up on time gets you 2dkp, and you get another 2dkp if you stay till the end. We pool all loot gained from all those kinds of raids with the Guild Loot [Removed for Content], or GLW. He makes a post on our forums, showing it off. We then do a silent auction for each piece that runs for 48 hours. So if there were a few ebons on the auction block, a tank may get one ebon for 5dkp, and another may get his for 3dkp, depending how they bid. When the auction closes, the GLW mails the item to the player, and points are subtracted. The 48 hour lag lets people browse what loot has dropped in the last few days, and pick what they really want to bid on, instead of just what dropped on this raid. It also lets a very active player who missed a given raid bid on things that dropped at that raid, and not get the shaft that his uber master dropped when he wasn't around, even though he's been trying to get it for 6 months. We also track dkp by player, not by toon, allowing us to drag someone's level 48 warlock along, instead of his 50 paladin, if we need a warlock for that raid. If some fabled paladin loot drops, he can bid on it just fine and outfit that guy. <div></div>