THE nerf...

[Zaloorb]

<DIV>Ok, there is a lot of talk going on about the big nerf that is coming up that will change the combat system. I have been searching and searching and I still cannot find a definitive answer on how this will affect us. Ive heard from some that our dmg will be reduced, and others have said that our mit and avoid will be lowered. If anyone might know anything that might enlighten the rest of us please post here. If we cant get any answers, maybe at least we can compare what we have heard to get ready for the upcoming disaster....</DIV>

[Dwergux]

Points listed (out of my head): - Paladins will become more of an defensive tank (not sure if this means our offensive skills wil get nerfed) - Player level will no longer affect spells (rendering +Determined Faith items useless) - A cap on avoidance will be added - Migitation will become more important (is a pro for us heavy armor wearing tanks) - Bonus damage of offensive spells will be determined by the INT of the caster vs. the WIS of the receiver Now how this will nerf or boost us is to be found out when the changes go live. <div></div>

[TheGreatStoney]

<P>There is a lot of things good that are coming our way.</P> <P>- I've heard are spells are going to cost less power (To me, this was what really held us back from getting to tank)</P> <P>- Ranged Slot will be filled with an item (They have not specified what will go there yet)</P> <P>- We are going to be one of the defensive tank classes</P> <P>- Combat Revamp (which promises to fix alot of scaling problems and broken spells)</P> <P> </P> <P>To me, this is a great boost to our class, giving us the option to tank, off-tank, and maybe even dps (pretty sure we will still do decent damage).</P> <P>And when you add in the ability to Heal and Rez people...yea, i think we are getting the good end of the stick <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zaloorb wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok, there is a lot of talk going on about the big nerf that is coming up that will change the combat system. I have been searching and searching and I still cannot find a definitive answer on how this will affect us. Ive heard from some that our dmg will be reduced, and others have said that our mit and avoid will be lowered. If anyone might know anything that might enlighten the rest of us please post here. If we cant get any answers, maybe at least we can compare what we have heard to get ready for the upcoming disaster....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The biggest difference in the combat upgrade will be how skills(Combat Arts and Spells) work and upgrade.   There will be greater incentive to improve your character by upgrading your skills, less incentive to twink your items.   Certain skill upgrades will add abilites when you upgrade them, especially Adept III and Master 1.   Paladin damage may be the same or lower at the lower skill lvls (Apprentice) but may go up at higher skill lvls (Adept and Master).   Power efficiency, currently a big problem for Paladins will improve.   Currently some skills use more power at higher lvls, not less, that should be changed to less power at higher lvls.  Damage at higher skill lvls may actually increase.  Paladin tanking ability should be improved through mitigation but I am not sure if they are going to increase Paladin hit points, they should.  Combat art and spells effectiveness will depend more on individual skill lvl (disruption, ministration etc) than on character lvl.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have a one or two-dimensional character (all strength, all vit, all agility etc), the strength of your character may decrease with the combat upgrade.   Paladins are part mage, part fighter and part healer.   We do in fact need a balance of intelligence, wisdom, vitality, strength and agility.   Intelligence does affect spellcasting ability, wisdom affects healing, strength affects power, vitality affects hit points and agility affects avoidance.  Expect the Paladin to become more like he (or she) is intended to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The best suggestion I could make is if you have not already done so, start upgrading your skills.   Take that platinum you were going to invest in rare armor and put it into skill upgrades.  For example, Adept III Pious Belief boosts Paladin Strength and Stamina by a whopping 23 each and wisdom by 16.   You cannot get that kind of a buff from any item. </DIV><p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:15 AM</span>

[Karlen]

Wards will soon take mitigation into account.  Being plate-wearers, that sounds like a significant change... <div></div>

[Walnu]

Well I'm atleast excited about the spell/combat art changes. 

[Paintball33]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BlackWeb wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>The biggest difference in the combat upgrade will be how skills(Combat Arts and Spells) work and upgrade.   There will be greater incentive to improve your character by upgrading your skills, less incentive to twink your items.   Certain skill upgrades will add abilites when you upgrade them, especially Adept III and Master 1.   Paladin damage may be the same or lower at the lower skill lvls (Apprentice) but may go up at higher skill lvls (Adept and Master).   Power efficiency, currently a big problem for Paladins will improve.   Currently some skills use more power at higher lvls, not less, that should be changed to less power at higher lvls.  Damage at higher skill lvls may actually increase.  Paladin tanking ability should be improved through mitigation but I am not sure if they are going to increase Paladin hit points, they should.  Combat art and spells effectiveness will depend more on individual skill lvl (disruption, ministration etc) than on character lvl.   </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>stock up on rubys and rhodiums! prices are gonna go WAAAAAY up!</DIV>

[Zaloorb]

<P>Thank you all for the responses.</P> <P>Im not sure that Paladin are effected by INT. My thought was that STR and WIS are the only factors considering how and when our spells hit and how much power we have. As for the skill Pious Belief, I chose the training upgrade, Kasine's Enlightened Piety, which adds STR, AGI, WIS, and STA. It is of adept 2 quality and, unlike the upgrade to Pious Belief (Crusade) it adds extra AGI (about 22 or so).</P> <P>As far as combat abilities being upgraded to add different effects, that sounds very interesting. I had not heard that thus far. All I have been hearing is that Guardians are going to be nerfed by changing how avoid and mit effect incoming attacks, weather it be avoidance or dmg prevention. I also heard that Pallys were having their dmg lowered and aggro increased to make us more in line with guardians. As we are now, we are closer to Berzerkers in our tanking and dmg abilitiy.</P> <P>Thanks everyone for your input =)</P>

[BlackW]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zaloorb wrote:<BR> <P>Thank you all for the responses.</P> <P>Im not sure that Paladin are effected by INT. My thought was that STR and WIS are the only factors considering how and when our spells hit and how much power we have. As for the skill Pious Belief, I chose the training upgrade, Kasine's Enlightened Piety, which adds STR, AGI, WIS, and STA. It is of adept 2 quality and, unlike the upgrade to Pious Belief (Crusade) it adds extra AGI (about 22 or so).</P> <P>As far as combat abilities being upgraded to add different effects, that sounds very interesting. I had not heard that thus far. All I have been hearing is that Guardians are going to be nerfed by changing how avoid and mit effect incoming attacks, weather it be avoidance or dmg prevention. I also heard that Pallys were having their dmg lowered and aggro increased to make us more in line with guardians. As we are now, we are closer to Berzerkers in our tanking and dmg abilitiy.</P> <P>Thanks everyone for your input =)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Paladin spellcasting ability is affected by intelligence.   Wisdom, strenghth and stamina are our most important attributes but intelligence does matter.   The net effect of the Combat Upgrade is more likely to be a buff for Paladins than a nerf, depending on your your character is configured.  Damage for starter spells and combat arts may decrease but damage for higher lvl spells and combat arts may actually increase.<BR> <p>Message Edited by BlackWeb on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:42 AM</span>

[Pilo]

<div></div>I'm hearing a lot of "likely" and "probably" and "possibly" when it comes to the changes.  First, I'm not convinced the changes are imminent.  I hate to bring in old EQ1 examples because its not the same game - but there were changes promised for months upon months upon years that either never happened or never came to full fruition.  Second, the changes aren't likely to take the exact form anyone is speculating now.  If what you're saying is true, it might take some time to get it all balanced correctly.  Chances are things probably won't change anywhere near as much as you're saying they will.  We certainly won't have the drastic changes that occurred in EQ1 shortly before the release of PoP.I, for one, will not be making any decisions about upgrades based on speculation of changes that don't even have a schedule to appear yet.  I am playing the game today for today.  I don't even know if I'll still be playing when the changes occur.  Who knows what could happen.<span></span><div></div>

[SunT]

<DIV>I think it will be more of a balance of where we place on the scale, not a drop of DPS.  This can mean many things. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Illusionist for example are far below us now, but getting a big boost.  So they will end up above us but that does not mean we will be lowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been thinking bout this alot.  It would be more 'sellable' for SOE to increase the HP of the Mobs and leave the damage the same of the classes that need to drop on the relative scale, like the Pally, than it would be to lower the output of a specific art.  Then noone cries that Oath hits for 150 vs 250.  instead the Mob has 3k more HP to balance the additional damage and all the lower classes get a bump.  Everyone is happy then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is a clip of how they say it will balance out in the end...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><B>Steve "Moorgard" Danuser:</B> Without giving the precise DPS numbers we intend each class to have, I can list how the classes will relate to one another in damage output. There are basically five groupings that classes fall into, from highest amount of damage output to the lowest.<BR><BR>First group:</P> <UL> <LI>Wizard/Warlock <LI>Assassin/Ranger</LI></UL><BR>Second group: <UL> <LI>Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet) <LI>Brigand/Swashbuckler</LI></UL><BR>Third group: <UL> <LI>Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet) <LI>Troubador/Dirge <LI>Bruiser/Monk</LI></UL><BR>Fourth group: <UL> <LI>Berserker/Shadowknight <LI>Paladin/Guardian</LI></UL><BR>Fifth group: <UL> <LI>Fury/Warden <LI>Defiler/Mystic <LI>Inquisitor/Templar</LI></UL> <P><BR>Keep in mind that these aren't absolutes. A Guardian who concentrates on damage output and upgrades his or her offensive abilities could surpass a Berserker who focuses on defensive capabilities. These are simply the general guidelines we're following where, all things being equal, the classes will be organized.<BR><BR>The thing with class balance, though, is that all things are *never* equal. So much of the damage output of a class depends on how that class is played that it simply isn't possible for anyone to guarantee that a given class will always perform at a certain level under every circumstance. However, the above list should at least give players an idea of the direction our numbers will be taking.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p>Message Edited by SunTsu on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 PM</span>

[SanJ]

<P>I really don't have issues with the new proposed dps rankings.  This is actually pretty much how I envisioned dps by class type at rollout <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </P> <P>My real concern is several fold:</P> <P>1. Although I usually don't have too many problems with aggro management, I do note that <BR>     a. gaining it initially is pretty easily if I pull and land the first blow/taunt, holding it over time is MANA costly!<BR>     b. using taunts alone is not enough to hold aggro for extended periods of time (consistently) with other tanks<BR>         using hate generating attacks that seem to steal it away sometimes frequently, sometimes infrequently which leads to c.<BR>     c. once again to ensure extended aggro management, we must add in a few wards/buffs to assist and they cost way too<BR>         much mana.</P> <P>2. Change is already underway to reduce the amount of mana regeneration on in-game gear.  Although, this will effect all classes, I think it will impact us heavily on our parties down time.  We will either have to: (if mana consumption doesn't change)<BR>     a. taunt and occasionally ward/buff only to keep mana in check with other party members.  I would envision us going<BR>         melee only without using special attacks that require even more mana.  how often do you end up being the player in<BR>         the group with efreeti boots, a manastone and a potion for mana regeneration (while others are minimally or rarely<BR>         using these items) yet you are first out of mana? I'd of course be using the screaming mace, but after 5 visits for no<BR>         less then 5 hours each visit, I've yet to get the cenobite or despoiler to pop topside clearning that part of the zone.<BR>     b. or continue to play using our current system of attacks and aggro but run out of aggro management mana even<BR>         faster then we currently do and worse yet fall into the category of "I'd rather not group with that uber aggro manager<BR>         simply because he/she holds the mobs as well as I've ever seen, but the downtime between encounters is just too<BR>         much to bare!" mentality.</P> <P>I've been doing some testing with other tanks grouped, high dps players, etc. where I gain initial aggro and then ask the whole party to try and deplete mana as quickly as possibly (burn it!).  In almost every test, I'm first out with the rest of the party having still 40 to 70 percent mana.  Oh it's certain I have aggro, but its also certain the tools that held it ate all my mana.  Decree seems like a wonderful tool that I utilize from time to time since it only targets your currently engaged mobs, but at one full bar of mana per cast, it's not a viable option very often.</P> <P>The last concern I have now is one less mentioned but I'm sure many of you experience this currently.  Aggro is lost and you burn all the taunts, all the buffs/wards, shield bash (eventually it will come back), BUT ... you know you got it back with ... dps (Refusal of Grace/Sworn Strike).  My guild ran through Everfrost last night clearing some epic x 2's for fun and I noted time and again (we were just messing around), I took aggro with our two big hitters or by rifling off a ward/buff combination--rarely or never with just a taunt.</P> <P>I'm not crying about combat changes, but continuing to point out that our aggro tools need addressed in regards to mana consumption either currently (although we have lived this long without it and seem to be successful), but most likely during the combat revamp.  Spell upgrades that might grant additional damage at possibly a lower mana cost or taunts with less mana cost will go a long way towards helping in the solution, but the current problem still stays in the back of my mind--hopefully it we be addressed appropriately during the revamp.</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P>

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>SunTsu wrote:<div></div> <div></div><div>I have been thinking bout this alot.  It would be more 'sellable' for SOE to increase the HP of the Mobs and leave the damage the same of the classes that need to drop on the relative scale, like the Pally, than it would be to lower the output of a specific art.  Then noone cries that Oath hits for 150 vs 250.  instead the Mob has 3k more HP to balance the additional damage and all the lower classes get a bump.  Everyone is happy then.</div><span class="time_text"></span> <hr></blockquote>I think you are exactly right here ....</span><div></div>

[Zaloorb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SanJun wrote:<BR> <P>I really don't have issues with the new proposed dps rankings.  This is actually pretty much how I envisioned dps by class type at rollout <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>My real concern is several fold:</P> <P>1. Although I usually don't have too many problems with aggro management, I do note that<BR>    a. gaining it initially is pretty easily if I pull and land the first blow/taunt, holding it over time is MANA costly!<BR>    b. using taunts alone is not enough to hold aggro for extended periods of time (consistently) with other tanks<BR>        using hate generating attacks that seem to steal it away sometimes frequently, sometimes infrequently which leads to c.<BR>    c. once again to ensure extended aggro management, we must add in a few wards/buffs to assist and they cost way too<BR>        much mana.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Im just curious... are you using Redemption on one of your group members? And if so, which ones and is the spell Adept III quality?</P> <P>I just ask this because recently, after upgrading my Redemption to adept III, I have had very little trouble with aggro. I usually see how aggro is affected through the first few rounds of combat to see who is drawing the most, but if you play with the same people enough, you'll know who to stick it on. If youre grouped with people you dont normally group with, wait a few rounds and see who is pulling aggro and then cast Redemption on them.  </P> <P>Also, dont forget to use your def stance, Call of Glory, and other spells (such as our ward, which you did mention) to increase your overall aggro %. Couple this with taunts and shield bashes (and dont skimp on the manastone if your healers can keep up) and I, personally, have no trouble holding aggro.</P> <P>Now if youre talking about Epic group x 4 encounters well... then you better bring a chanter or bard to help with power regen :smileywink:<BR></P>

[SanJ]

<DIV>Zaloorb,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I might not have been clear in the last post.  I'm not having problems with aggro management, but rather problems with how much mana we burn maintaining aggro.  I do use redemption some, but not a lot.  If we were able to place it on more then one party member it would certainly be more effective, but it's of less use when you have 4 or 5 big dps classes nuking away on a mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fortunately, I don't experience very many aggro problems in that category either even without redemption as long as:</DIV> <DIV>A. I start the pull with a solo HO and a taunt</DIV> <DIV>B. Cast Call to Glory</DIV> <DIV>C. Cast Prayer of Conviction</DIV> <DIV>D. Just use our 3 taunts as they are available (counting shield bash as #3)</DIV> <DIV>E. If the fight progresses awhile, and I should loose aggro, it quickly comes back with our shield ward, our call and then our prayer and usually without casting all 3.  Even if I don't loose aggro and the fight is lasting awhile, I'll use Call to Glory again in the middle of battle as it seems to really work for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the biggest reason I don't have that many aggro issues is based on mass spamming of HOs--love them! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The real point I was trying to get across is that our aggro skills on a pound-per-pound basis compared to other tank classes  cost way too much mana.   The screaming mace, golden efreeti boots, food/drink, manastone, potions, etc. help, but I really see our profession being more required to use all that to help with mana (unless we have a profession feeding us power--not really an issue at that point) compared to other tank classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,<BR>Kalen<BR></DIV>

[SanJ]

<DIV>I also recall reading on one of these forums (possibly just fiction so don't quote me since I read a lot of resources), but someone mentioned gray con spells/specials would be of no use on a mob or we couldn't use gray con spells/specials in the future. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone has a link to a thread from a developer stating this information, I'd be interested in reading the full transcript.  However, I hope this is just another bad rumor <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Redemption (very nice even at 50) is GRAY.</DIV> <DIV>2. Righteous Blow a very low mana cost GRAY con attack on its on usage timer is used a LOT for HO completion with very little mana cost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>Kalen</DIV>

[djhbeek]

Amen on the power-consumption thing.  I used to think I burnt power too fast, until I started grouping with other pallies and found that we all oop faster than other tanks. <div></div>

[Valian1]

we talking about expansion pack additions or a upcoming update?<BR>

[djhbeek]

there is a long delayed combat-revamp comming ... <div></div>

[Zaloorb]

<P>I dunno. Im not trying to Troll here, and forgive me if I offended you. Im not saying that you play incorrectly, merely that Redemption is our ticket to a low power lifestyle. With Redemption we receive 35% of the recipient's aggro FOR FREE. There is no power over time cost, it does not need to be recasted (unless the target dies), and it even lowers the targets hate, making one less person you have to worry about holding aggro from. Since I upgraded it to Adept III and began using it all of the time, I have held aggro much better and used less power doing so. My advice would be to ALWAYS have it casted on your biggest aggro getter. That was all I was saying. I do agree we need more power efficient taunts but if you play efficiently, we can manage our power just as well as a Ber (definitely not a Guard).</P> <P>As for making greyed spells not work, maybe that was refering to certain level mobs. In EQ1 certain spells wouldnt work against higher level mobs (note: stuns under level 60), maybe that is the issue youre refering to. If we are nerfed such that I cannot use my Redemption... well.... that would be a backbreaker. In my mind, it is one of my most important spells and im always using it. Anyway, I definitely appreciate everyone's input, thanks guys and gals. Lets keep this thread going!</P>

[Paintball33]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SanJun wrote:<BR> <DIV>I also recall reading on one of these forums (possibly just fiction so don't quote me since I read a lot of resources), but someone mentioned gray con spells/specials would be of no use on a mob or we couldn't use gray con spells/specials in the future. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone has a link to a thread from a developer stating this information, I'd be interested in reading the full transcript.  However, I hope this is just another bad rumor <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Redemption (very nice even at 50) is GRAY.</DIV> <DIV>2. Righteous Blow a very low mana cost GRAY con attack on its on usage timer is used a LOT for HO completion with very little mana cost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>Kalen</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now im not 50 yet, but peniten sacrament and blessing of the penitent are both grey also. I just now got devout sacrament, and when we get it, it's white, so i know that's gonna be grey by 50. If this were true, then we just lost a hp buff and a heal. Also, i recently stopped using righteous blow because my melee attack does more than it, and melee doesn't cost mana. Yes I was a bit worried about losing an attack to use for HOs, but it seems to work out fine. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I know redemption is real good, but what set up slots do you guys use? I always have Pious Belief and Rightouse Cause on (the stat buff and wep proc) so that's 2 concentration slots. When I tank I like to usually use our defense buff too (forget the name of the one I use) so that's all 5 concentration slots. luckyily our def stance helps w/ aggro a bit, but it'd be real nice to make it work like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>          </DIV>

[Paintball33]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SanJun wrote:<BR> <DIV>I also recall reading on one of these forums (possibly just fiction so don't quote me since I read a lot of resources), but someone mentioned gray con spells/specials would be of no use on a mob or we couldn't use gray con spells/specials in the future. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone has a link to a thread from a developer stating this information, I'd be interested in reading the full transcript.  However, I hope this is just another bad rumor <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Redemption (very nice even at 50) is GRAY.</DIV> <DIV>2. Righteous Blow a very low mana cost GRAY con attack on its on usage timer is used a LOT for HO completion with very little mana cost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>Kalen</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now im not 50 yet, but peniten sacrament and blessing of the penitent are both grey also. I just now got devout sacrament, and when we get it, it's white, so i know that's gonna be grey by 50. If this were true, then we just lost a hp buff and a heal. Also, i recently stopped using righteous blow because my melee attack does more than it, and melee doesn't cost mana. Yes I was a bit worried about losing an attack to use for HOs, but it seems to work out fine. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I know redemption is real good, but what set up slots do you guys use? I always have Pious Belief and Rightouse Cause on (the stat buff and wep proc) so that's 2 concentration slots. When I tank I like to usually use our defense buff too (forget the name of the one I use) so that's all 5 concentration slots. luckyily our def stance helps w/ aggro a bit, but it'd be real nice to make it work like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>          1.  Redemption be like Aegis of Hope, only get to cast once, but no concentration.</DIV> <DIV>    -OR-</DIV> <DIV>          2. Our Defense stance only take 1 concentration</DIV><p>Message Edited by Paintball3325 on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:29 PM</span>

[SanJ]

<P>Well I don't want to put anyone on the edge with the gray con spell information I posted--note I said I had read it somewhere and don't have a source to quote off hand just something that sounded scary and stuck in my head.  We'll have to wait and see what actually happens <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I completely agree that redemption is an uber spell and helps dramatically with aggro management.  However, the pitfall with the spell is that it may only be cast on 1 party member.  That's great for hooking up your warlock or assassin or other big aggro stealer but what happens when you have a party with:</P> <P>50 Assassin, 50 Warlock, 50 Wizard, 50 Dirge/Troub?</P> <P>You can taunt all you want and have redemption on whoever makes you happy, but the taunts alone will not hold your aggro long especially in a long drawn out battle (although that dps does tend to negate long drawn out battles <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  The point I was trying to make is that if you have a group of "heavy hitters," redemption, precise HOs, quirky pulling methods that make you feel better about gaining initial aggro, etc. tend to fall by the wayside and you have to nearly button mash aggro management in the form of all taunts, all buffs and a few wards sometimes to hold aggro from start to stop, and if you loose aggro, you burn it even harder getting it back.  The end result is that you are OOM or gimped on mana compared to everyone else.</P> <P>Again this isn't a post about trouble holding aggro, its an observation that many agree with regarding our aggro tools costing significant mana.  I hold aggro well, when I do loose it, I get it back, but often times mana is nearly or completely exhausted.</P> <P>I was looking at Decree again last night in a Vent discussion with another Paladin in my guild.  We both agreed it was a nice spell, completes HOs works like a taunt, does pretty nice damage to an entire encounter, only affects the current mob engaging the group, but WAIT at apprentice 4 mine was 350ish power!  I would like to see it fall more in line with < 100 mana cost doing 10 damage for all I care to mobs and working like a mid to zealous style recast taunting timer to be honest and keeping similar threat stats <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>If you are just using Clarion Call (fast cast) and Zealous Preaching (30 second recast major downtime), that means at best you can only taunt every 7 or so seconds (shield bash is great is you are not 2 hander and want the 3rd taunt which I use a lot).  Toss in 4-8K damage popping off like bottle rockets from Warlocks and Assassins, etc. and the taunts alone won't hold--thus leading to the high mana cost buffs and wards like Call to Glory, Display of Devotion, and Prayer of Conviction.  Yep we still get by now, but if our dps is penalized and especially if other classes that appear kinda gimped like Swashbucklers that were posted at rollout to be one of the highest dps classes all of the sudden get a boost, where will that leave us on holding aggro with a lower damaging Sworn Strike/Refusal of Grace and current mana cost?</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P> <P> </P>

[TheGreatStoney]

<DIV>With a group consisting with 50 Assassin, 50 Warlock, 50 Wizard, 50 Dirge/Troub, not many mobs will last long during the fight. I've found that if you have the person that stole aggro to move back, and you hit the mob with a stun attack, the mob deaggros right away and comes back to you. Sorta like what happens when you get close to a rooted mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Decree is a very usefull spell. It doesnt have a  limit on how many targets it can hit. Meeting of the minds is a good example. 2 ^^^, and somewhere around 6-10 ^^ at the very start. Using decree can inflict over 1600-2400 damage in one shot. If we have all our paladins on the raid,  we usually have 4 of us spamming those from the start. I think you can see why this spell has a 350ish power cost. You add in the interrupt on every target, and it is a very powerful and useful spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aggro issues should become less of a problem for us when combat changes come out. We will be receiving lower power costs all around.</DIV>

[Iustus]

<P>Actually, the biggest pitfall to redemption is that it takes 2 concentration. This means, if you use our defensive stance, and redemption, you are out of concentration slots.</P> <P>So, if you have to use redeption in order to hold agro as well as a guardian, then you lose out on using our concentration buff that increases WIS/STR/STA, so you have a lot less hit points (about 200 less), and you do not get to either buff someone else in the group with the same spell, or put up a proc buff.</P> <P>I would much rather just have effective taunts that do not use an insane amount of mana and give up redemption. Redemption just means that we effectively only have 3 concentration slots instead of the 5 other tanks get.</P> <P>Or, take away the concentration slots of redemption.</P> <P>I almost never use redemption. If I was MT on a raid (done that once), I would use it, and give up the 200 hit points. Otherwise, I use stance, STA, proc buff for most exp groups. Sure, I lose agro sometimes, but most of the time, its ok, the mobs die fast enough. Of course, I have not played with the mana regen nerf patch of today, before today's patch, I had 20 (GEB) + 14 (Prismatic) + 12 (BoM)  = 46 power regen. After patch, it will be 24 mana regen. That is going to really hurt my taunting ability.</P> <P>-I</P>

[djhbeek]

that's one option.  personally, i give up benediction (200 hps at 50 isn't much, and the hate is like +1% isn't it?), so in a single group, i usually run redemption, proc, crusade on myself (forget if that makes 4 or 5 conc). At work, so the details are vague, but thought id give a rough idea of the other option. <div></div>

[Iustus]

<DIV>Benediction is about gaining defense. You cannot give this up.  You will tank <STRONG>much</STRONG> worse. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-I</DIV>

[djhbeek]

well ... if i'm one-grouping, the mobs probably can't hit me that much anyways, i'd rather ensure agro-lock ... if I were tanking an epic, i might agree tho. <div></div>

[yzyh]

<P>IMO paladin DPS being lowered to the same dps then a guardian is fair.</P> <P>But paladin should be able to buff HP and defence betther then what a berseker can. Paladin should be a part of the Main tank group in raid. Not zerker.</P>

[Kainen]

<P>I have not clue why Beserkers are even close to us in tanking.  Let's review the name for a minute.  A beserker to me implies someone who is coming at you rather crazily and all out.  This to me implies massive offensive attack with little regard for defense if any.  Sure, they need to be able to take a hit, but there is NO way they should be at the same level as us for tanking.   I know alot of people talk about them stealing aggro but guess what, that comes with doing DMG OUTPUT.  A GOOD beserker will not steal aggro, just like a good Warlock or Wizard won't.  They have to control there dps until the tank has locked the hate down.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>