Mith's list of useful raid spells (short)

[djhbeek]

<div></div><div></div>Ok, I went to put together a list of T5 spells that are useful in raids.  Would love to hear comments about them.  Please excuse some of the tongue-in-cheek comments, as I'm a little amused at how short the useful list is ... Useful     Elixir of Resuscitation     Pious Aid Useful in some cases     Clarion Call     Zealous Preaching     Courageous Dash     Devout Sacrament Useful depending on your group make up     Prayer of Conviction     Crusade Useless in most cases, cause it heals less than 1 hit once or twice in a raid     Divine Touch (ok, so I'm really talking about the Virtuous touch, cause DT has been borked since release) Useless if you are not in the MT group, and why would you be in the MT cause other classes have better buffs     Display of Devotion (you can use it to ward a group member from an AE tho).     Unwavering Faith     Gift of Armament Only useful if you are the MT (and don't bother telling me pallies can MT, they can, but they typically don't)    Benediction Stuns/interrupts that may or may not work and wont work on epics when they are fixed     Ancient Wrath     Divine Judgment     Judgment Strike     Blessed Rush     Decree Pure DPS for if your raid for some reason has none (let me know when you find a raid like this)     Refusal of Grace    Sworn Strike     Condemnation (heal doesn't count, cause even if you were MT, the 40 hp aint gonna do anything)     Unyielding Wrath     Holy Symbol (the hate generation is not needed if you are not MT) <div></div><p><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by djhbeek on <span class=date_text>06-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:44 PM</span>

[FrozenEnzyme]

Gift of Armnament should go in the same category as DoD and UF Display of Devotion is actually very helpful regardless of what group you are in on certain mobs, last time my guild did spirit of vox, I found that casting display of devotion on the caster in the group before the AE hit kept him a lot higher in health than he would have been had it hit full on (we even tested this a few ticks to make sure that was the case) <div></div>

[djhbeek]

Thanks, that was the type of info I was looking for.  Made the updates.  Still kept DoD in the useless category, just added a disclaimer. <div></div>

[Titali]

<FONT color=#6699cc><FONT color=#6699cc></FONT>what i find useful</FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>djhbeek wrote:<BR>Ok, I went to put together a list of T5 spells that are useful in raids.  Would love to hear comments about them.  Please excuse some of the tongue-in-cheek comments, as I'm a little amused at how short the useful list is ...<BR><BR>Useful<BR>   Elixir of Resuscitation <FONT color=#6699ff>agree</FONT><BR>    Pious Aid <FONT color=#6699ff>agree</FONT><BR><BR>Useful in some cases<BR>   Clarion Call <FONT color=#6699cc>sometimes, agree</FONT><BR>    Zealous Preaching <FONT color=#6699ff>sometimes, agree</FONT><BR><BR>Useful depending on your group make up<BR>   Prayer of Conviction <FONT color=#6699ff>i always cast this, whyw ouldnt you want more mana? (and spell mitigation in the future)</FONT><BR>    Crusade <FONT color=#6699ff>apparently hp/mana and dmg (and avoidance/accuracy with training) is are bad things.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#6699ff></FONT><BR>Useless in most cases, cause it heals less than 1 hit once or twice in a raid<BR>   Divine Touch (ok, so I'm really talking about the Virtuous touch, cause DT has been borked since release) <FONT color=#6699cc>emergency heal for anyone</FONT><BR>Useless if you are not in the MT group, and why would you be in the MT cause other classes have better buffs<BR>   Display of Devotion <FONT color=#6699cc>a not-so-efficient heal, and not as useful either, but still a bit</FONT><BR>   Unwavering Faith <FONT color=#6699cc>always have this one someone, avoidance never hurt anyone, especially if anything goes wrong.</FONT><BR>Only useful if you are the MT (and don't bother telling me pallies can MT, they can, but they typically don't)<BR>   Devout Sacrament <FONT color=#6699cc>hp is bad, *hiss*</FONT><BR>    Benediction <FONT color=#6699cc>OT/MT only for the most part i agree</FONT><BR>Stuns/interrupts that may or may not work and wont work on epics when they are fixed <FONT color=#6699cc>hopefully the ones that proc stun will only have the stun part unable to affect epic targets</FONT><BR>    Ancient Wrath<BR>   Divine Judgment<BR>   Judgment Strike<BR>   Blessed Rush<BR>   Decree<BR>Pure DPS for if your raid for some reason has none (let me know when you find a raid like this) <FONT color=#6699cc>why would we ever want to dps? who knows</FONT><BR>    Refusal of Grace <FONT color=#6699cc>...</FONT><BR>   Courageous Dash (stun may not work, and the hate generation is not needed if you are not MT) <FONT color=#00cc33><FONT color=#6699cc>MT or OT, no less useful than taunts</FONT></FONT><BR>    Sworn Strike <FONT color=#6699cc>...</FONT><BR>   Condemnation (heal doesn't count, cause even if you were MT, the 40 hp aint gonna do anything)  <FONT color=#6699cc>debuffs mob, does damage and a bit of heal for any random damage you may take from AE or otherwise</FONT><BR>    Unyielding Wrath <FONT color=#6699cc>...</FONT><BR>   Holy Symbol (the hate generation is not needed if you are not MT) <FONT color=#6699cc>consdering the hate does work and neither does the supposed fear, its an ae dps/grp heal.</FONT><BR><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Titaliss on <span class=date_text>06-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:33 PM</span>

[djhbeek]

<span>Hmm ... some good points ... here's my thinking on a few of these.<blockquote><hr>Titaliss wrote:<div></div><font color="#6699cc">what i find useful</font> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>djhbeek wrote:Useful depending on your group make up   Prayer of Conviction <font color="#6699ff">i always cast this, whyw ouldnt you want more mana? (and spell mitigation in the future)</font>    Crusade <font color="#6699ff">apparently hp/mana and dmg (and avoidance/accuracy with training) is are bad things.</font></p> <blockquote> <p><font color="#cc00ff">I always cast these, but find that they often don't take affect because the group has someone else buffing the same stat (therefore useful depending on group makeup).</font></p> </blockquote> <p>Useless in most cases, cause it heals less than 1 hit once or twice in a raid   Divine Touch (ok, so I'm really talking about the Virtuous touch, cause DT has been borked since release) <font color="#6699cc">emergency heal for anyone </font></p> <blockquote><font color="#cc00cc">Not for enough to really save anyone consistantly tho ... not in a raid.</font> </blockquote> <p>Useless if you are not in the MT group, and why would you be in the MT cause other classes have better buffs   Display of Devotion   Unwavering Faith <font color="#6699cc">always have this one someone, avoidance never hurt anyone, especially if anything goes wrong. </font></p> <blockquote><font color="#cc0099">No, it doesn't hurt, but unless someone gets aggro it doesn't help.</font> </blockquote> <p>Only useful if you are the MT (and don't bother telling me pallies can MT, they can, but they typically don't)   Devout Sacrament <font color="#6699cc">hp is bad, *hiss* </font></p> <blockquote><font color="#cc0099">Only if you take alot of damage in a raid, since it's self only, I only use this if I got riposted, or if i got AE'd like crazy, and by that point the healers are dead anyways... will move this to sometimes tho, cause it does save my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] here and there.</font> </blockquote> <p>Pure DPS for if your raid for some reason has none (let me know when you find a raid like this) <font color="#6699cc">why would we ever want to dps? who knows </font></p> <blockquote><font color="#cc0099">That was kind of my point, DPS spells in raids for non-DPS classes are fluff.</font> </blockquote> <p>   Courageous Dash (stun may not work, and the hate generation is not needed if you are not MT) <font color="#00cc33"><font color="#6699cc">MT or OT, no less useful than taunts </font></font></p> <blockquote><font color="#cc0099">Yep, this should move to the same section as taunts</font> </blockquote> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Sav]

<span><blockquote><hr>djhbeek wrote:<span>Hmm ... some good points ... here's my thinking on a few of these.<blockquote><hr>Titaliss wrote:<div></div><font color="#6699cc">what i find useful</font> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>djhbeek wrote:Useful depending on your group make up   Prayer of Conviction <font color="#6699ff">i always cast this, whyw ouldnt you want more mana? (and spell mitigation in the future)</font>    Crusade <font color="#6699ff">apparently hp/mana and dmg (and avoidance/accuracy with training) is are bad things.</font></p> <blockquote> <p><font color="#cc00ff">I always cast these, but find that they often don't take affect because the group has someone else buffing the same stat (therefore useful depending on group makeup). </font></p> <p><font color="#cc00ff"><font color="#ffff00">I believe the +mana from Prayer of Conviction stacks with everything.</font> </font></p> </blockquote> <p>Useless in most cases, cause it heals less than 1 hit once or twice in a raid   Divine Touch (ok, so I'm really talking about the Virtuous touch, cause DT has been borked since release) <font color="#6699cc">emergency heal for anyone </font></p> <blockquote><font color="#cc00cc">Not for enough to really save anyone consistantly tho ... not in a raid. <font color="#ffff00">I've saved many people in many raids, including myself with this...</font> </font> </blockquote> <p>Useless if you are not in the MT group, and why would you be in the MT cause other classes have better buffs   Display of Devotion   Unwavering Faith <font color="#6699cc">always have this one someone, avoidance never hurt anyone, especially if anything goes wrong. </font></p> <blockquote><font color="#cc0099">No, it doesn't hurt, but unless someone gets aggro it doesn't help. <font color="#ffff00">Because you know people can never avoid getting hit or mitigating the damage from hits...</font> </font> </blockquote> <p>Only useful if you are the MT (and don't bother telling me pallies can MT, they can, but they typically don't)   Devout Sacrament <font color="#6699cc">hp is bad, *hiss* </font></p> <blockquote><font color="#cc0099">Only if you take alot of damage in a raid, since it's self only, I only use this if I got riposted, or if i got AE'd like crazy, and by that point the healers are dead anyways... will move this to sometimes tho, cause it does save my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] here and there.</font> </blockquote> <p>Pure DPS for if your raid for some reason has none (let me know when you find a raid like this) <font color="#6699cc">why would we ever want to dps? who knows </font></p> <blockquote><font color="#cc0099">That was kind of my point, DPS spells in raids for non-DPS classes are fluff. <font color="#ffff00">DPS spells in raids for ALL CLASSES is the bulk of their DPS <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> How many wizards can dps without nukes?  What percentage of the damage done by your scouts come from arts and how much come from actual piercing/slashing/crushing? </font></font> </blockquote> <p>   Courageous Dash (stun may not work, and the hate generation is not needed if you are not MT) <font color="#00cc33"><font color="#6699cc">MT or OT, no less useful than taunts </font></font></p> <blockquote><font color="#cc0099">Yep, this should move to the same section as taunts</font> </blockquote> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote><hr></blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[djhbeek]

<blockquote><span><span><font color="#cc0099"><font color="#ffff00">DPS spells in raids for ALL CLASSES is the bulk of their DPS <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"></font></font></span></span> <span><span><font color="#cc0099"><font color="#ffff00"> How many wizards can dps without nukes?  What percentage of the damage done by your scouts come from arts and how much come from actual piercing/slashing/crushing?</font></font></span></span> <span><span></span></span></blockquote> <span><span><font color="#cc0099"><font color="#ffff00"> <font color="#ffffff">I agree, that the bulk of our DPS comes from skills, my point was that DPS classes do much more dps (or SHOULD do much more in the case of scouts), so in a discussion of what's really usefully to pallies in helping out a raid ... DPS isnt it ... </font></font></font></span></span><div></div>

[crackst]

<DIV>Did no one pick the lvl 40 *i believe* training Kasine's Enlightened Piety??? This spell is a upgrade of Crusade, it gives 23 WIS & AGI and 28 STA and STR...and the plus is that you can cast it on up to 5 people in your group.  It is a wonderful spell and use it constantly for everything</DIV>

[Auron]

<DIV>killing a mob fast is never a bad thing, paldins have some excellent AE attacks that when upgraded to adept 3 can really help [Removed for Content] grouped mobs, warlocks are about the only thing that can out dps me on raids like the zek epic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hands down our most usefull spell is the rez, it owns every other class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sav]

<span><blockquote><hr>crackster wrote:<div>Did no one pick the lvl 40 *i believe* training Kasine's Enlightened Piety??? This spell is a upgrade of Crusade, it gives 23 WIS & AGI and 28 STA and STR...and the plus is that you can cast it on up to 5 people in your group.  It is a wonderful spell and use it constantly for everything</div><hr></blockquote>I did.  Wish I could respec and take Theron's though.</span><div></div>

[Sav]

<span><blockquote><hr>Auronnj wrote:<div>killing a mob fast is never a bad thing, paldins have some excellent AE attacks that when upgraded to adept 3 can really help [Removed for Content] grouped mobs, warlocks are about the only thing that can out dps me on raids like the zek epic.</div> <div> </div> <div>Hands down our most usefull spell is the rez, it owns every other class.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Except Dirge <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[djhbeek]

what's the stats on Dirge rez, anyways? <div></div>

[Dwergux]

<span><blockquote><hr>djhbeek wrote:<blockquote><span><span><font color="#cc0099"><font color="#ffff00">DPS spells in raids for ALL CLASSES is the bulk of their DPS <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"></font></font></span></span> <span><span><font color="#cc0099"><font color="#ffff00"> How many wizards can dps without nukes?  What percentage of the damage done by your scouts come from arts and how much come from actual piercing/slashing/crushing?</font></font></span></span> <span><span></span></span></blockquote> <span><span><font color="#cc0099"><font color="#ffff00"> <font color="#ffffff">I agree, that the bulk of our DPS comes from skills, my point was that DPS classes do much more dps (or SHOULD do much more in the case of scouts), so in a discussion of what's really usefully to pallies in helping out a raid ... DPS isnt it ... </font></font></font></span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Actually in longer fight Paladins do great damage! I've outdameged a level 50 wizard on  the encounter on the way to Nafagen when we were getting the update for Speak like a Dragon for the first time. In most raids when looking ay my damage done I'm not far behind our ranger, monks, swashy, zerker and wizard. We all do about the same damage (well the ranger does most). Saying our damage is of no use on raids doesn't seem right to me. Wether it should be our role to do damage is another issue though, but atm we can fill the role of DPS quite fine.</span><div></div>

[TheGreatStoney]

<DIV>I picked Therons Call of Hope. Basically just for the extra 5% hate increase. Im kinda leaning towards Kasine's Enlightened Piety  when i respec again soon. i'm very close to hitting 200 strength and stamina. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now we can hold aggro decently without using Therons extra 5% hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont forget about some of the racial traits you can get too. Many races like Humans and ogres get a spell that adds +5 defense to a raid member, effectively raising their defense up a level.</DIV>

[redoule]

Unwavering Faith and Gift of Armament do not stack.  Use Gift of Armament  if in the MT group as that will result in a much larger benefit than the somewhat broken/misleading Unwavering Faith. I also use Kasine's Enlightened Piety unless we are fighting something that dispells.  In which case, I use Crusade. <div></div>

[FrozenEnzyme]

<span><blockquote><hr>redoulent wrote:Unwavering Faith and Gift of Armament do not stack.  Use Gift of Armament  if in the MT group as that will result in a much larger benefit than the somewhat broken/misleading Unwavering Faith. I also use Kasine's Enlightened Piety unless we are fighting something that dispells.  In which case, I use Crusade. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm pretty sure that the avoidance bonus from unwaivering faith (what little it really does) does stack with gift of armnament, its the mitigation part that doesn't</span> <div></div>

[ebig]

<P>i find pallys are usefull in raids because we are able to many thing and not just one.</P> <P>we can heal (every little bit helps)</P> <P>we can tank (lat the gaurdians tank that way after the fight he can repair his armor while my armor is still at 100%)</P> <P>we can buff (some buffs need fixed atm)</P> <P>we can dps ( not as good as pure dps classes but good enough to make a differance)</P> <P>we are jack of all trades and master of none sure some of our skills and spells need fixed butt what class don't IMO</P>

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote>ebig wrote:<p>i find pallys are usefull in raids because we are able to many thing and not just one.</p><p>... sure some of our skills and spells need fixed butt what class don't IMO.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>yah, i wasn't trying to bash pallies.  there are alot of classes that are worse off than us.  just was looking for info on which skills that i don't use that maybe i should, and am getting alot of good input. <span>:smileyhappy: one thing i like about pallies is that there are alot of diff things you can do depending on the situation, so its actually worth discussing when certain skills are useful.  still not sold on the fact that dps is really more than an extra ... though i have to say if the MT dies, spamming AEs and taunts and then healing your self until the healers switch targets is nice). </span></span><div></div>

[Auron]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Savik wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Auronnj wrote:<BR> <DIV>killing a mob fast is never a bad thing, paldins have some excellent AE attacks that when upgraded to adept 3 can really help [Removed for Content] grouped mobs, warlocks are about the only thing that can out dps me on raids like the zek epic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hands down our most usefull spell is the rez, it owns every other class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Except Dirge <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>i believe the dirge recast time is like 3x ours, pwned <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Auron]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dwergux wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> djhbeek wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cc0099><FONT color=#ffff00>DPS spells in raids for ALL CLASSES is the bulk of their DPS <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cc0099><FONT color=#ffff00>How many wizards can dps without nukes?  What percentage of the damage done by your scouts come from arts and how much come from actual piercing/slashing/crushing?</FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cc0099><FONT color=#ffff00><BR><FONT color=#ffffff>I agree, that the bulk of our DPS comes from skills, my point was that DPS classes do much more dps (or SHOULD do much more in the case of scouts), so in a discussion of what's really usefully to pallies in helping out a raid ... DPS isnt it ...<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Actually in longer fight Paladins do great damage!<BR><BR>I've outdameged a level 50 wizard on  the encounter on the way to Nafagen when we were getting the update for Speak like a Dragon for the first time.<BR><BR>In most raids when looking ay my damage done I'm not far behind our ranger, monks, swashy, zerker and wizard. We all do about the same damage (well the ranger does most).<BR><BR>Saying our damage is of no use on raids doesn't seem right to me. Wether it should be our role to do damage is another issue though, but atm we can fill the role of DPS quite fine.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is 100% true, there are many great 2 handed weapons in the game and many haste items that give 20 % haste ( i have 20 % haste ring and 20% haste belt ) so like if in a long fight im using the royal great flail or something like that i can usualy get like a 400 or 500 point hit in in-between each skill,</P> <P>IMO this game has made alot of the scout classes more of a utility then a pure dps as i have seen many palys and zerkers and such out dps classes like bards and swashes and brigands and the like... we arent bruisers or assasins but we can bring the heat.</P>

[Paintball33]

<DIV> <P>IMO this game has made alot of the scout classes more of a utility then a pure dps as i have seen many palys and zerkers and such out dps classes like bards and swashes and brigands and the like... we arent bruisers or assasins but we can bring the heat.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>your lookin at the wrong scout classes. the ones listed are utilities, the Ranger and Assassin are the DPS. I've grouped with lots of these lately and DANG do they do lots of DPS. One Assassin I was with was out dmging our warlock EVERYTIME. Both rangers and assassins will tell you that the warlocks and wizzies will out DPS them everytime against a big group, cuz most of their skills are single targets.</P></DIV>

[Auron]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Paintball3325 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>IMO this game has made alot of the scout classes more of a utility then a pure dps as i have seen many palys and zerkers and such out dps classes like bards and swashes and brigands and the like... we arent bruisers or assasins but we can bring the heat.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>your lookin at the wrong scout classes. the ones listed are utilities, the Ranger and Assassin are the DPS. I've grouped with lots of these lately and DANG do they do lots of DPS. One Assassin I was with was out dmging our warlock EVERYTIME. Both rangers and assassins will tell you that the warlocks and wizzies will out DPS them everytime against a big group, cuz most of their skills are single targets.</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>lol aight lets not turn this into an arguement but 2 things man, one im talking about level 50 raids , your level 39 by your sig and a raid fight is alot different and longer then just xpin or whatever.  Say the raid mob does an AE that hits for like 3k, most scout classes cannot take that damage and will have to joust it, well a pally has plenty of ac and especially with buffs and being able heal themselves can stand in there and keep hittin....  and i do believe you quotted me saying that we arent assasins or bruisers then told me we arent assasins or bruisers, yeah they out dps us, i already mentioned that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was just tryin to say that we do very good damage in a RAID.... if we are in groups usually we are tankin and thats a whole new ballgame.</DIV>

[djhbeek]

heh ... people don't realize how different 50+ raids are from normal groups.  which is the whole point of this thread... that some spells, while fine for groups don't really do much in raids.  as far as DPS goes.  I do realize that ours is higher than it should be by all rights.  But personally, in a tough tough fight, i'm saving some mana and laying off the DPS, maybe will change as i get more mana regen, but for now its that way ... and it's probably worth thinking about this in strats given that mana regen is gonna be nerfed hard .... <div></div>